ESPN.com – MLB – Box Score – Phillies at Braves
Miserable Braves Loss Type 4.2(f): “Starting Pitcher Does Okay, But Leaves With Injury, Game Out of Hand Five Minutes Later When Reliever Stinks Up The Joint, Team Can’t Get Hit to Come All The Way Back, Then Bullpen Makes It Worse, So Then They Get The Hit Only Now It’s Too Much To Overcome.”
The Good Horacio appeared for three innings tonight, getting nine of the first ten men he faced. The Bad Horacio then mugged him, stole his uniform, and took to the field to allow a two-run homer to Ryan Howard. (Okay, anyone could do that.) Then one of the Horacios left with an injury, and then the Vulture, in an obvious Vulture situation (down one run with the other pitcher showing all the signs of a meltdown) was absolutely atrocious.
First, he came in with a runner at second (walk and a wild pitch; Horacio had a blister problem and was probably suffering from it before he had to leave) and the pitcher at the plate. Obvious bunt situation, but Villareal for some ungodly reason tried to cut down the runner at third (I hate it when pitchers do that) and of course it’s first and third, nobody out, and the floodgates open. The Phillies bat around, five runs score in the inning, and it’s 7-1 and we’re free to see what’s on the other channels.
So of course the Braves get three runs in the bottom of the inning (Marcus with the big blow, a two-run homer) which might have given them a 4-3 lead if Villareal hadn’t tried to do too much or at least tied it if he hadn’t sucked like the vacuum of space, and at any rate would have made it close. The Braves actually got the tying run to the plate in the person of LaRoche but he struck out. In the seventh, they had second and third, two out, after McCann doubled, but Francoeur struck out.
Then in the eighth, Ray (who had done well in the seventh) got into trouble, and McBride came in to get a couple of Grybos. So of course Andruw hit a two-run homer in the ninth, followed by a McCann single, but (with the tying run on deck) Francoeur grounded out.
Francoeur did have a pretty good game, with two hits and even a walk (which loaded the bases in the fourth). McCann led the way as usual with three hits (he’s now hitting .349, which would lead the league by ten points if he had enough PA to qualify; only five catchers ever have hit .349 or better in a qualifying season) including the double. Renteria scored three runs The Braves had twelve hits in all, two more than the Phillies, and hit two more homers, but allowed six walks and just didn’t bunch their hits that well.
Too bad that Bad Horam didn’t mug Villareal and McBride…
Didn’t Ramirez get the loss after it was Villarreal who basically put the game out of reach?
Is this right: He would need 344 PA to presently qualify, and he currently has 323. For the season, he needs 502. So he needs 179 PA in 51 games. That doesn’t seem too unreasonable, especially since Bobby isn’t giving him many days off. He might have a better shot at qualifying for the batting title than Chipper.
As far as I can tell, this season will never turn around to be redeemed with a Wild Card. All the trends are breaking the other way against the Bravos…always facing a team coming off of a losing streak and is due to win. Most recent examples are the Reds (losers of 3) and the Phillies (losers of 2).
One things for sure though — Giles should never be asked to hit leadoff again. Best solution, as far as I can tell, is to aquire a leftfielder who can take up the leadoff spot in ’07 and cast off all the experiments. Enough of the odd leftfielder platoons and enough already of mediocre minor league hopefuls.
But more pressing matters at hand….our rotation is in peril and there are no signs that the farm system is prepared to re-arm it. I’ve not seen the staff so average since the days of Derek Lilliquist. It’s safe to say that I am concernced, bummed out and feeling like lackluster seasons such as this one looms before us. I don’t trust Davies and his 91 mph fastball, I don’t trust that Ramirez will ever be a consistent, reliable winner, and I sure as heck don’t think we can expect Smoltzie to be a mainstay for many more years.
Even though I’m a diehard fan, I obviously knew the streak would end…just didn’t want to go out without a fight..or without a hope.
Sorry to be so glum, but this game (for some reason) brought me to the end of the line for the 06 campaign.
@ Tom
I love the Braves too, but I am so sad to say this season is over.
We absolutley have no starting pitching. I thought once we got a couple of arms in the bullpen (like we did!), the offense could carry us. But now it’s the starting pitching. It’s like a sinking boat, you plug one hole and 5 more appear. I hate it hate it hate it, but it’s definitely over. With only Smlotz, Wickman and Baez – it just can’t be done.
Don’t feel bad. It had to end sometime, right? When you think about it too many things had to go right this season for us to contend. It turns out that not only the iffy things didn’t go right but some of the sure things didn’t either. But through all of the crap that’s happend a couple of good things have become apparent.
1. I believe that we have an alll star quality catcher. As many have said here McCann is the best of the Baby Braves and will be a corner stone for awhile. Delta should consider making him their boy.
2. The deal for Edgar Renteria was good. He won’t hit like this year but at his averages he is a very good player so a regression to his mean won’t kill us.
3. We might and I say might finally have a hitting 1st Baseman. LaRoche’s numbers are being propped up by a fantastic July but if he continues at this pace and avoids a prolonged slump like he had in April then he is a starter and quality 1B.
4. Smoltz still has it. With a little luck he would have a better record. He has struggled at times but he has done his job and for the most part kept us in games.
5. We have a solid core of position players. Chipper is starting to look like a 120 game player so we had better have a backup 3b around. Since talking about replacing or seasoning Francoeur is out of the question then reallly all the team needs is a productive Left Filelder as far as position players go.
Off setting this is the sucky state of the pitching. At least this is better than the 80’s in that there is some potential for improvement amoung what we have but other than Smoltz this is the weakest staff I’ve seen the Braves field in about a decade and a half. And I’ve seen some very weakass Braves pitching staffs.
So some optimisim mixed with some bitterness and sadness that our run ends in 2006. It was good while it lasted.
Doug —
You’re right, it’s as if none of the elements (offense, bullpen, starting pitching) was ever in synch this year. And ironically, after the bullpen has finally shored itself up, the starters combust and the offense becomes erratic. Who knew?!
Also to your other point — I agree. We’re outmanned, outgunned, and don’t have a shot any longer to make the playoff push. Simply a terrible realization for Braves fans but it’s one we should make at this time.
I want the team to finish above .500, even if it’s just by one game.
Well we need to win the next two now
Are the Braves going to trade for any starters or sign any free agents are go into 2007 with Smoltz, Hudson, Hampton, Ramirez and James/Davies/Lerew?
Lerew sucks
At least this is better than the 80’s in that there is some potential for improvement amoung what we have
I’m not so sure it’s really better (can’t be any worse of course). How many pitchers do you see in the orgainzation who you could say would be part of the next good Atlanta Braves pitching staff? Hudson and Smoltz are too old, Horacio will never be any good, James has a very low ceiling, Davies is a maybe at best, Larew and Devine may never get it, and our bullpen is filled with retreads. This organization needs a transfusion of young pitching, which is why I was calling for us to be sellers at the deadline. Just look how quickly the Marlins put together a promising young staff.
“Atlanta has lost 23 of its last 33 games at Turner Field.”
Yeah, I would say it’s all over .If the braves can’t even win at home,they dont belong in the playoffs.
Come to think of it this whole season makes me sick.Just how did it come to this? I can’t tell if it’s time to rebuild or make a run next year? JS sure has his work cut out for him.
Yeah, this year certainly sucks. I also don’t see another Glavine or Smoltz in the organization. But in the national league you don’t necessarily need that level of great pitching to get to the playoffs next year. If we keep Smoltz, Hampton is at least average, and Hudson gets at least a little better next year, we’ll have a shot. Oh yeah that assumes we also take care of the bullpen problems before the season starts until waiting until the trade deadline. (I have nightmares about JS trusting Reitsma with the job again for the hat trick of suck.)
Andruw’s homerun in the ninth was pretty darn amazing. How do you break your bat in half and hit it 400 feet?
Next year will be worse. If we can not sign a couple of pitchers(we wont) there is no real hope for next year. Our Minor Leaguers are not good and we are apparently hamstrung for cash so what we got is it.
Thats not good.
Trade Hudosn for a few bags on sunflower seeds, i like the Ranch flavor.
Is this right: He would need 344 PA to presently qualify, and he currently has 323. For the season, he needs 502. So he needs 179 PA in 51 games. That doesn’t seem too unreasonable, especially since Bobby isn’t giving him many days off. He might have a better shot at qualifying for the batting title than Chipper.
Also remember that he gets the missing PAs added to his total in the form of outs. So if he ends the season 155-for-450 (.344), for example, but falls 10 PAs short of qualifying, he’d get the equivalent of 155-for-460 (.337) toward the batting race. If he maintains a big enough lead, he could afford to fall just short of the required number of PAs.
Also remember that he gets the missing PAs added to his total in the form of outs. So if he ends the season 155-for-450 (.344), for example, but falls 10 PAs short of qualifying, he’d get the equivalent of 155-for-460 (.337) toward the batting race. If he maintains a big enough lead, he could afford to fall just short of the required number of PAs.
Very true, and possibly the most ridiculous rule in the sport.
Maybe this was fully vetted on the game thread last night, but Andruw hit a 420+ foot BROKEN BAT homerun to dead centerfield. I have never seen or heard of anything like that. I remember highlights a couple of years ago of someone hitting a broken bat homerun by yanking it down the line in some small ballpark (Minute Maid?), but Andruw powered the thing last night. Absolutely amazing.
And, not just as a sign of solidarity, I too think the chance of a WC is long gone … I thought it was gone two months ago. Let’s hope for .500, or at least finishing ahead of the Nats and Marlins.
When was the last time someone was able to win a batting title without having enough qualifying PA’s? That would be amazing.
when does football start? Dont answer, I know when it starts. I just dont feel like talking about our team right now. Very depressing….
what LF leadoff hitters are available this offseason? and your thoughts on each?
I know Pierre and Crawford are available. What about Roberts or Figgins?
I think it’s a good rule. The qualifying rule is in place to keep people from winning fluke titles with 300 PA and the like. But it doesn’t make sense to keep someone from winning a title they would have won because they’re ten PA short when those ten PA couldn’t have done anything to eliminate him.
Pierre sucks.
Tony Gwynn did it in ’96 to beat out Ellis Burks.
I’d also add Crisp to that if we were to go down the trade Andruw to Boston scenario. However, I’d give my left (anything) for Crawford. Is there any way we could pawn Giles and Ramirez or maybe Hudson off to Tampa for Crawford?
by the way, is anyone tired of hearing about Tony Pena Jr. and his dad’s thoughts on him being a major league hitter. Every time he PH the announcers start talking about how his dad says he can hit at this level. Oh yeah, since his call up he’s 0-4 w/ 3K’s and he just had one fastball after another last night to hit. I’m sorry, but he can’t hit!
I did not know that rule, that is really odd, but giving someone phantom plate appearances feels wrong.
Oh yeah that Andruw homer was BadASS!!!
Except that it introduces a theoretical element to a computation that’s pretty straightforward. 502 may be an arbitrary number but, once set, establishes (or should establish) a minimum requirement. What if the guy in second place took a couple of days off for bereavement leave just when his team was preparing to face oh, I don’t know, Jason Shiell and Tim Hudson? Maybe he’d have gone 7 for 10. I realize it’s a “slippery slope” argument, which isn’t always an easy sell — I just prefer the results of actual game play to speak for themselves.
anyone happy that we’ll see a lineup of
Pratt and Diaz tonight. Hudson loves Diaz defense in LF. Where’s Brian Jordan when we need him. Bobby kills me sometimes..
I remember reading about several instances in the fifties I believe where guys led the league in BA but did not have enough plate appearances. It almost happened to Ted Williams a couple of times late in his career when he was injured a good bit and the rule in those days was that walks did not count as PAs, so with his injuries and many walks he cut it close a couple of times.
As for the Braves, I can’t be optimistic for the future for two reasons. First, there is an utter lack of power pitching in the organization and apparently no ability to develop these high school pitchers that they keep drafting that throw 88. Second, as successful as JS and BC have been, they are in their mid-sixties and I question their ability to change course after all these years. And I do think changes need to be made in organizational philosophy, especially with a limited payroll. It’s pretty clear that the coaching at the minor league levels of pitching is pretty abysmal–either that or the talent is really lacking. The Braves are certainly not bereft of talent, but I can’t see a pitching staff based on Smoltz, Hudson, and Hampton being championship caliber. I think the Braves may be in for some lean years, although playing in the National League gives them hope. I just can’t see how JS can improve the pitching over the winter; he might be better off trying to build the team around offense and adequate pitching rather than trying to recreate the 90s, which is not likely to happen again. And, somebody please tell me why Roy Clark is considered such a great farm director. He has developed some good position players, but the pitching is laughable.
I am not ready to concede just yet. I realize that we are on the brink, but realistically, coming into this homestand, we should have hoped for a winning record over the 6 games. Losing the first one does not eliminate those chances. If we win 4 of the next 5, I say keep pushing. Otherwise, I would love to sell some of these rentals.
These are the guys I would try to move in order:
Wickman
Baez
Pratt (okay, no one will want him)
Hudson
Giles
Renteria
I would not try to move Chipper, Andruw, or Smoltz, but I would listen to offers. If we get overwhelmed with young pitching, they would be gone too.
The problems of the team center completely on pitching. This year, with Hampton down, we needed Tim Hudson. He did not show. The best chance for impact pitching in our system is about 3 years away. We do not need to talk about another bat for LF. With our current lineup (and next year’s), we would be right in the DIVISION race if we just had a quality starts in half of our games.
This off-season is probably one of the most important in a long time. There are many long term implications that need to be decided on. Do we sign Andruw and risk being locked up to that salary over the next 5 or 6 yrs and hope we can make due with pitching? or Do we trade Andruw while his value is at it’s peak and get young power pitching for the future and hope that our young bats get better?
We can’t move those guys now because we wouldn’t get decent returns during the waiver period. Now, some of them could be dealt in the offseason (Huddy and Giles) but Wickman and Baez will either be signed or we’ll get draft picks as compensation.
Let’s face it, Braves aren’t going to have the budget to win much during the long 2-3 years under Liberty Media, and Smoltz and Chipper aren’t going to be contributers 3 years from now. So its time to start dealing veterans and investing in young players with long term upside. The Marlins build a base then spend heavy only in the years they’re close, and that strategy has won more world series rings with less money than the Braves over the last ten years. Braves spend just enough to be good, never enough to be great, but now corporate management knows there is no reason to invest in large contracts. So why drag out the misery? Save money and deal all the expensive players and build for the future. AJ will be gone by the time the Braves have a chance for the pennant again anyway, and he must be worth some good pitchers. McCann, Frenchy, KJ will hopefully be something to build around.
“And, somebody please tell me why Roy Clark is considered such a great farm director. He has developed some good position players, but the pitching is laughable”.
Not too long ago, although lately it seems longer, we had lots of young arms in the minors and the 40 man roster. Just for fun, lets try to remember where they all went……………………
There was Zach Minor, Roman Colon, Cappelan, Wainwright, and a few more only a couple of years ago (I don’t include Jason Marquis, on this list.)
Marc,
I totally disagree with your assessment of our pitching guidance on the farm. You said yourself that we lack power pitching, yet we have developed soft tossers to the Major League level. Also, look at the success prospects have had in our system, only to be traded and completely fade under different tutelage.
Our holes in pitching at the top of our system are due somewhat to injury, but mostly due to our limited budget. Year after year, we have traded away talent to fill holes that we would not (but could have) on the free agent market. The only real power, “stuff” guys we have had recently, Adam Wainwright and Jose Capellan, were victims of the tight pursestrings.
Two words, Parish: “Zach Miner”. Or how about this headline: “Miner Outduels Liriano as Tigers Top Twins”?
I’m not quite sure what the two words are for, Mac. I would not consider him a “stuff” guy. Miner is pitching pretty much the same as he did in our minor league system. He was, however, another victim of the tight purse strings, one of three young pitchers we traded for a closer last year.
I would save that headline if I were him. It is fantastic!
I think if McCann keeps hitting Bobby will move him to the two spot so he can get more AB’s. Remember when baylor did it with Galaraga in Colorado
My point was that not all the finesse guys lose it when the Braves trade them. Miner’s 7-2 now, and after a slump seems to have righted himself. And he was the throw-in, which is what really concerns me.
The Braves are going to be drafting higher than they have since 1991 this year. I’m worried, however, that they’ll go the signability route and take a local high schooler again. That seems to be working fine for the hitters, but not so much for the pitchers.
Anyone think Liriano will have a Soph slump. He looks solid, but is having forearm stiffness and shoulder problems. Its going to be interesting to watch. I’m glad we dont have to face Santana and Liriano back to back. We might strike out 40 times in 2 games, but Pendleton will be happy because we didnt take any pitches and we were aggressive. That’s all that matters
At this point, I’m only looking at the rest of the season in terms of avoiding further embarrassment:
Don’t finish last.
Don’t get swept anymore.
Don’t endure any permanent injuries.
Get to .500.
Ruin some other teams’ seasons down the stretch.
It’s tough medicine, but (as has become my mantra) if this happens roughly once a generation, I think I can handle it.
Carl Crawford? Your left anything for a guy with a career .326 OBP? He is a good player but a lot of he is one of those guys that if he doesn’t hit around .300 then he doesn’t have enough power to justify his existence in LF. I know that someone will mention his speed but I have never been convinced that is as important as power and patience.
Egad! Juan Pierre? Gross. He sucks.
Marc, We did have some great pitching PROSPECTS but we’ve traded their potential for performance. Sometimes its worked out, see Wainwright for one great season of J.D. Drew, sometimes it hasn’t worked out, see Jose Cappellan for …… shoot I can’t even type his name without gagging. Anyway that has been a hallmark of the Braves sustaining this run. Now we are out and its time to re load.
Since we are in the NL I think that a fire sale would be imprudent. The core postion players are fine. With Smoltz, Hampton, Davies, the good Horacio and who knows maybe Hudson will find his mojo we should have enough to contend in this weak league next season.
I am not sure Miner was a throw-in. He had better peripherals at a younger age (and AAA, granted) than Colon. We have paid a high price to fix the closer spot in the past couple of years.
But, certainly, I would agree that not ALL of the finesse guys lose it when they leave our system. I would be remiss to point out that this is a small sample size and that Miner had essentially been developed to Major League level after 5 years in the Braves farm system.
Anyway, let’s not lose the forest for the trees. The point of my statement is that our pitching coaches in the minors are actually top-notch and that the siginificant gap in ready pitching prospects is due to other factors.
ububba, don’t forget individual accolades for the players. McCann and Chipper are right up there for the batting title, and Andruw’s right up there in RBIs.
What our pitching staff needs is Leo. When he left there was all this talk of him being hard on the pitchers, well maybe some of these guys don’t need a nice guy pitching coach, they need a swift kick in the ass.
We dont need that much for next year. We just need 3 more good starters, closer, set up guy, leadoff hitter, left fielder, good platoons for Chip when he gets hurt, better bench players, and someone to backup McCann not named Pratt. It could be worse I guess, we could be the Pirates…
Johnny,
Carl Crawford is currently at .311 15Hr 58 RBI 131 H 66 R 34 SB
.355 OBP .513 SLG
He can hit lead-off, steal bases and hit a helluva lot better than Langerhans or Diaz. I thought months ago that we could have had him for Salty and maybe someone else, but when they went out and got Dioner Navarro that kind of put an end to that.
I am obviously a big fan of Crawford and a big fan of him in a Braves uniform. We could use him no doubt.
CSG,
I think that Brayan Pena is more than capable of backing up BMAC.
Fantasy baseball is cool because it exposes you to information you might otherwise overlook.
When looking into starting Hamels tonight in my fantasy lineup, I checked Atlanta’s team splits. The Braves die against lefties. The team has a robust .805 OPS against RHP (#1 in the NL), but against lefties, it’s a paltry .740. (This is despite Jeff Franchise having a .679 OPS against RHP in 373 PAs.)
Jay10, I have been saying that all year
I know you have, and so have I.
Gosh, Joey, it’s almost like we sit our best hitter and replace him with an old guy who hits like a pitcher or something.
Position coaches in baseball are the most overrated of all sports. Pitching and hitting are so individual it is unreal. TP, I keep hearing for his head on a platter yet Brian McCann is swinging good, so is Chipper, Renteria, Larouche….
Mcdowell? Who knows, he sure does not have a lot to work with and the talent we had was hurt before he got going, Hampton,Thomson, Davies, and he was given no bullpen and still got mileage out of Ray and Paranto.
Bobby has been saying all year that Roger Mcdowell is a great pitching coach and I beleive he said something on the line that he is better with the younger guys than Leo….Um I don’t really see it.
Oldtimer, I’ve been calling for players to have individual hitting instruction (like tennis and golf players) for awhile now. It just makes sense. It seems to me that TP does well with hitters who are more or less like him (Estrada, except for speed, was very similar) but struggles with some guys who have radically different styles.
I checked, and McCann hits lefties at a .261/.386/.478 clip. His average is obviously a lot lower, but his isolated power is basically identical and he walks a lot more. He seems to be vulnerable to specialists but hits lefthanded starters fine.
Mac and Joey, I love it when our lineup basically has 4 pitchers hitting in the bottom of our order. Frenchy, LaRoche, Pratt, Pitcher. I guess I should take LaRoche out of that group. He doesn’t deserve it, but the other 3 do. Just replace LaRoche w/ Brian Jordan because he would be in there if healthy.
Well Chipper’s personal hitting coach would most likely be his dad…it seams like everytime he goes in a slump he calls his dad for help and it works almost everytime. So maybe that would work Mac.
Jay10, I think that I said Crawford is a good player I was just pointing out his biggest weakness IMHO. Its that his offensive skills are batting average dependent. He doesn’t walk alot and until this year he has only averaged about 15 hr per season. I don’t know how the trop plays but at the Ted his power might disappear. As for lead off again I’m just not a big fan of slap and run players. Overrated IMHO. Anyway I respect your opinion. I wouldn’t trade a top shelf prospect for him (Is Salty still one?) for sure when I think that KJ COULD be a better player than him next season.
CSG nice catalog of needs. However I think that our bench has been good. Betemit was good, Diaz has performed admirably and I think that Aybar is maybe as good as Betemit. Pratt? I agree. Left Fielder? and shoot a right fielder too while we are at it. Now I’m depressed.
Joe Girardi was almost fired after Monday’s loss to the Dodgers. I guess the Marlins owner was upset the Joe didn’t argue balls and strikes. The two had a closed door argument and the Marlins set up for a press conference to announce his firing when they worked it out.
Could someone please remind me what a “Grybo” is? Thanks,
-n
Johnny I respect your opinion aswell. Even if we did get him and his power did disappear he would still most likely hit around .300 and steal 50 bases which we don’t have on this team since Rafael left. We need a proven lead-off hitter and he would do that.
From the Glossary (linked on the left):
Andrew didn’t clear waivers, but any news on which players did clear and can be dealt? This season’s toast but maybe ATL can take advantage of some team looking to make a late deal to bolster its playoff chances a la the Nats trade of Livan Hernandez to Arizona for a couple of decent prospects.
nogbogfrog, its Kevin Gryboski. I person that sucks that Bobby will only bring in w/ runners in scoring position. This pitcher will keep a low era, but will allow the inherited runners to score. Hence a “Grybo”, hope that helps.
or use Mac’s defintion
I’m sure Hudson cleared waivers. Probably Smoltz would as well. Possibly Giles, but possibly not. Baez maybe because of his no-arbitration clause. Generally the players who clear waivers are those with contracts that make them hard to assume if the other team doesn’t pull them back.
Do minor leaguers have to clear waivers to be traded?
JoeyT,
The individual stuff is nice and I’m certainly rooting for those guys, but (at the risk of sounding like Bobby Knight) it doesn’t keep me up at night. I may be in the minority, but I’d prefer to finish 4th (not last) than have McCann win the batting title.
I, too, tend to believe that this team is not that far away from a good ’07. We require some certain tweakage, mostly on the mound, and I’m not sure how we’ll arrive at that (given the ownership situation, our seemingly flat salary cap & our current mix of players, a couple of which may be dealt IMO).
More than anything, the weak pitching is why we are where we are. Between the flat-out lousy starts & the dispiriting blown leads, this team never showed (or seemed to believe) that it was capable of great things.
This team kind of reminds me of the ’73 Braves—lots of impressive individual performances that don’t add up to much because the pitching mostly stinks. (Bring in Buzz Capra!)
Prospect Hot Sheet.
http://www.baseballamerica.com/today/prospects/hotsheet/262126.html
I think players on the 40-man have to clear waivers, but I could be wrong. If it comes to that, you make them Players To Be Named Later.
You got it Mac, one hitting coach, 15 players. in other sports you have one coach to anywhere form 3-10 players. It is so much more specialized. Of course it would be very difficult to have 3 or 4 coaches teaching guys to hit, who gets who….
Usually these coaches are scapegoats more than anything.
It would be great if the term “Grybo” attained greater useage–it is fun to imagine future ESPN announcers saying that a pitcher has been “Gryboed”.
I wonder if in time we will find the term ‘Parontoed’ to be similarly useful….
Otherwise, I was relieved to see that somebody else picked up Livan Hernandez did not wind up on the Braves.
Joe Girardi was almost fired after Monday’s loss to the Dodgers.
I know that arbitrary endpoint stats suck, but reading this article I was struck by this stat:
From May 23 through Thursday the Marlins were 40-26, the best record in the National League during that span.
That’s amazing. Wow the National League is terrible.
Here’s the link to the Girardi thing.
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=2543099
Li’l Jonny is a clear example of nepotism and malfeasance, and if anyone at TW cared about the Braves they would order Scheurholz to release his son. People get fired and sued over this sort of thing in the real world. In baseball, it’s considered cute for some reason.
If they fire Girardi, I wouldn’t mind Bobby retireing
Yeah he is up to an amazing .189/.265/.259.
Hard not to feel for Girardi there. I never thought I’d see the day when the Marlins made the Yankees look like the Sea of Tranquility. Someone needs to fit Loria with a dunce cap…
he’s another Todd Pratt, w/out the veteran thing
A guess I don’t see the point of making a big fuss over it. If he was released tomorrow, his lineup spot would be taken by some other organizational soldier that has zero chance at a major league career. If he was taking PT from a guy who has a chance to be something that would of course be a problem but I don’t think that’s ever been the case. We certainly are cranking out enough middle infield prospects.
The minor leagues are filled with guys with no major league talent simply because you need to fill out the rosters.
Try to find another player in AAA who (a) has Scheurholz’s track record, (b) is hitting as poorly, and (c) is his age. I doubt you could. Hitters (as opposed to pitchers) simply don’t keep getting promoted with records this poor.
L’il Jonny is the worst hitter in the International League and it is not remotely close. He has the lowest OPS (by almost forty points), the lowest BA (by eighteen) and the lowest SLG (by 28). His recent “hot streak” has moved him from last to third-from-last in OBP.
Putting him in AAA is the equivalent of a CEO putting his incompetent college dropout son in charge of a low-performing division because “He can’t make it worse”. But he does. If Time Warner wanted to fire JS (I am not saying that they should) the treatment of the GM’s son would give them all the grounds they would need.
Thanks Jay10–it would have been nice to see the Braves with players on the Prospect Hot Sheet, but 2006 has been marked by fairly unimpressive performances on the farm.
Ububba–I like your comparison with the 1973 Braves because they were interesting and particularly frustrating. In addition to Buzz, the Braves set a record by having 3 players (Evans, Johnson and Aaron) hit 40 homers.
If the parallel holds there is some hope for 2007: the 1974 team was good, but in the wrong division. The 1973 Braves had a losing record, while the 1974 team won enough to capture the weak NL East, only to finish a long way behind the Dodgers in the West.
Robert is right. Little John is not taking someone’s job and who really cares outside of Richmond if the R-Braves win. Hell most of the pitching staff is at the big league level.
Brad Penny is a dick….He is refusing to give up 31 to Mad Dog….
That has me thinking what numbers do you think the Braves will retire.
I am thinking #29 John Smoltz, #10 Chipper Jones, maybe #25 Andruw Jones if he stays. Others #47, #31, and maybe #6 Bobby Cox.
Any thoughts?
Don’t disagree with any of that, but so what? How does it hurt the Atlanta Braves chances to win games? If JS dumped his son and signed a minor league FA that posted a league average OPS…then what? Nothing. He can hang around AAA for life for all I care. AAA has become a repository for unwanted players anyway.
29,10,31,47,25,6 will never be worn by another Brave again.
Besides (rightly) ragging on little JS, the article should have caused Braves Journal readers bigger concern. Although the article wasn’t a top-to-bottom rundown of each team’s minor league system, the fact that there wasn’t a single Braves prospect listed suggests little help might be forthcoming from the farm. Heck–there’s already too much of the farm system in ATL.
A whimsical thought on little JS–maybe his dad’s desire to have him make the show will prompt papa JS to trade Giles. Depending on what big daddy JS could get in return for Giles, of course, this would be a good move in my opinion. Although Giles has gotten hot since dropping to the 2 hole, I’d rather start Aybar at 2B next year and save the $5m or so that Giles might command to spend on a starter.
http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/story/5855286
Ha ha ha!
I don’t know if you can back to the BA prospect hot sheets past, but there is hardly mention of a Braves player all year. At least, a positive mention. With Stevens, Salty, and Lerew, we’ve made the not-so-hot sheet.
Did anyone else see the top Braves Web Gems.
#3 Rafael Furcal’s unnassisted triple play.
#2 Walt Weiss’ diving stop and throw home.
#1 Otis Nixon robbing a Homerun from Andy Van Slyke.
Smitty,
The article’s coupling of Lo Duca’s infidelity with his passion for horses really concerns me.
Parish, wasn’t Thorman mentioned at some point this year?
Frank,
Good point about the money it will cost to keep Giley next year. We will need as much money for free agents next year as we can get.
29,10,31,47,25,6 will never be worn by another Brave again.
And of course 19. Wait, looks like they gave 19 to LaRoche. That’s crazy. LaRoche is ok but he’s certainly no clutch god.
Cliff Lee just signed a 3/14 contract. That’s pretty reasonable for a good lefty. I wonder if someone would have taken Horam from us before the injury. Does he have another year on his contract?
This is HoRam current deal.
Signed deal for 2006 season worth 2.2M on 1/17/06- + 2005 salary: 370K
You don’t know that the presence of L’il Jonny hasn’t done any harm. You don’t know whose job he’s taken. You don’t know whose development has been stunted because coaches and playing time have been devoted to this flaming example of shameless nepotism.
What we do know is that he is no more a major league caliber infielder than he is an all-knowing being of pure energy.
They need to give Johnny Jr. a steriods test.
Oh yeah, I don’t know why his 2 homers hasn’t set off any red flags yet.
29, 10, 31, 47, 25 & 6—that about covers it.
I’d also guess that you’ll see plaques for all those guys in Cooperstown, perhaps entering in this order: 31, 47, 29, 10, 25 & 6 (or soon after Bobby retires).
You don’t know whose development has been stunted because coaches and playing time have been devoted to this flaming example of shameless nepotism.
And yes I don’t know what would have happened if Lil Johnny had never been born. Like when Prado was promoted this year and moved Lil Johnny off second, I have a real tough time believe JS is taking at bats away from real players. Obviously you do and find it to be a fireable offense. I find that ridiculous. So, we disagree.
The Star Tribune says the 22-year-old Liriano was on the verge of tears following the loss in the quiet Minnesota clubhouse. His voice cracked as he described the pain, pointing to the inside of his elbow.
Yeah, that doesn’t sound too good if you ask me. That could kill their playoff hopes….
Okay, everyone, nepotism is groovy, Robert says so! Go ahead and hire your incompetent nephews for do-nothing jobs. As long as you can claim they’re not hurting you it’s okay.
I may have exaggerated the weakness of coaching. Most of the pitchers the Braves have traded over the years have not done all that much, which suggests they weren’t all that good to begin with. Undoubtedly, drafting low has made it difficult to get the power arms, but for years we have been hearing how the Braves have reloaded on pitching. Yet, none of these pitchers seem to amount to much. (Maybe Miner is an exception and we will regret trading him.) I can remember back in the 90s when the Braves were touting Brad Woodall as the next Glavine. That happens to every team, of course, but you would have expected some of the Braves picks to develop. Other than possibly Millwood and Schmidt (but it took him years) none of the others have panned out all that well. I actually think Chuck James will be pretty good despite the homeruns he is giving up now, but is he a top of the rotation pitcher?
I tend to agree with Oldtimer that hitting and pitching coaches are somewhat overrated. The Braves have had tons of hitting coaches over the years and none have been enormously successful. As for Leo, it’s hard to believe that the staff would be that much better if he was still here. He certainly hasn’t had much effect in Baltimore. But I do think it was probably a mistake to replace Leo with such an inexperienced coach.
Whatever. I can see no argument that Lil Johnny’s presence on this Earth has cost the Atlanta Braves one victory now or ever. That’s all I care about. If JS wants to hire his idiot nephew to work in the mailroom, I’m ok with that too.
Chuck James could possibly be a good #4 or #5 starter one day. He’s like our outfielders and bullpen guys, too good for AAA, but not major league caliber just yet.
I cant believe we are still discussing Lil John!!!!!
It’s pretty much impossible to prove that he’s cost the team anything, but he hasn’t gained them squat, I think we all can agree. As long as the minor leagues exist for the benefit of the majors, that’s how players there should be judged — “Does this guy help the major league team? Could he help the team in the future?” If the answer is an unqualified no, if they bring nothing to the table, dump them and find someone who might help, even if it’s only a fraction of a chance.
I don’t spend much time thinking about JS’ kid—but I agree that he shouldn’t be playing at Triple-A. In fact, it’s indefensible that he’s there at all.
The sooner he moves onto the front office or the mailroom, the better.
It’s pretty much impossible to prove that he’s cost the team anything,
If it happened it wouldn’t really be that hard. Something like “We had this guy tearing up A ball, but he didn’t get promoted because Lil Johnny had the job at AA.” would be really bad.
If the answer is an unqualified no, if they bring nothing to the table, dump them and find someone who might help, even if it’s only a fraction of a chance.
Who does this? Look through the rosters of any team’s minor league system and you find lots of guys who have no chance to ever help but are there to “fill out the roster”. I mean look at any AAA roster and it’s pretty much a who’s who of “That guy is still playing?”.
Part of the problem is that nobody who can tell JS what to do cares about the team as long as he keeps to the budget. So he can do whatever he wants. I wonder if Stan Kasten would have told him to cut it out.
As for L’il Jonny not costing the Braves anything… The next pick in the eighth round of the 2002 draft was Brad Halsey, who currently has a 3.86 ERA (mostly in relief) for the A’s. Clay Hensley, the pick after that, is also in the majors with the Padres, pitching average baseball in their rotation. Not that we would have drafted these guys instead, but you can get useful players in the eighth round, which was far too high to pick this useless drone.
I wouldn’t fire JS just for keeping his son in the minors when he clearly doesn’t belong there. After all he’s done, I think that would be kind of petty. Baseball is a business, but it’s not really comparable to something like Procter & Gamble or General Electric. It just runs differently.
The problems I see are a)it really is blatant nepotism, which reflects badly on JS’ integrity AND makes everybody involved look stupid, because the kid just flat-out sucks, and b)by continuing this charade, JS is hurting his son. Jonathan is what, 26 now? That’s ridiculous. He has no chance to ever be any kind of baseball player and he’s wasting his chance to learn actual skills to start a career and an actual job going by sticking around in a dead end this long.
But nobody has anyone on their AAA roster worse than L’il Jonny, because he’s the worst player in AAA.
I specifically said that JS should not be fired. What I said was that if TW needed grounds to fire him for cause this is cause.
But nobody has anyone on their AAA roster worse than L’il Jonny, because he’s the worst player in AAA.
True, he is costing Richmond wins hand over foot. Also true, I don’t care.
I will say that using one of our Arizona Fall League spots on Lil’ Johnny…now that was an outrage. Those spots have value, minor league roster spots, not so much.
I expected they would let Jonathan play in the minors for a few years to get experience before moving him into the front office. But I didn’t realize he was 26 – he should have moved on by now. Surely this is his last year playing. I wonder if he gets called up on Sep. 30 for a token at-bat.
called up Sept. 30 to carry the bats.
If someone is cut to make room for L’il Jonny on the 40-man roster, Schuerholz and everyone else involved should be fired.
If someone is cut to make room for L’il Jonny on the 40-man roster, Schuerholz and everyone else involved should be fired.
You bet.
A lot of energy spent today on L’il Jonny. I’m not even sure he’s the worst player in Richmond, let alone in AAA. Bill McCarthy has been stinking up the joint this season (.235/.298/.352) as an OF, and he is older than L’il J. The guy we picked up from the Cards for Sosa (Scalamandre) has a lifetime of poor pitching in his pedigree and got lit up in his first appearance for the R. Braves. I’d say L’il J fits in fine.
James Jurries .191/.297/.289 line at Richmond is pretty funny too. I guess steroid detox can be rough.
Yeah, no doubt. But Jurries is a better player than that, I think. L’il J and some of the other stiffs holding roster spots at Richmond are not.
here you go. Minor League Numbers, check out who is last
http://www.minorleaguebaseball.com/app/milb/stats/stats.jsp?t=l_bat&lid=117&sid=l117
Yup, with McCarthy and Crespo just ahead of him. When you sort by some of the counting stats (RBI, Runs, BB, etc.) L’il J is in the middle of the pack. This isn’t to suggest that he’s good, mind you, just not any worse than some of his AAA peers.
Who are the biggest disappointments for 2006?
I’ll start w/ 4, not in any order
1. Tim Hudson
2. Bartolo Colon
3. Jeff Weaver
4. Mark Mulder
Someone said no one cares if Richmond wins. Well, the people in richmond that pay money to go to the game care. The Braves have an obligation to all their paying customers, not just to the fans in Atlanta. I wasn’t really that strongly opposed to letting Johnny play, but then I realized the ONLY reason he is there is because of his old man and that is not fair to the Richmond fans. I doubt he is really doing any harm to the Atlanta Braves, but why do the Braves think it’s ok to screw paying customers in Richmond. But I guess that’s the TW way.
CSG, here is the comparison.(Jeff Weaver is listed as LAA and STL.)
http://atlanta.braves.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/stats/sortable_player_stats.jsp?compare.x=&box6=XXXX213711XXXX&c_id=atl§ion2=3&statSet2=1&statType=2&sortByStat=L&timeFrame=1&timeSubFrame=2006&baseballScope=mlb&isCompare=true&sitSplit=&venueID=&subScope=teamCode&teamPosCode=all&box1=XXXX218596atlX&box2=XXXX112526anaX&box3=XXXX150426slnX&checkBoxTotal=0&playerLocator=weaver
It’s a tough call but I would go with Tim Hudson. The reason is he was supposed to be our ACE. Bartolo Colon has been injured most of the year, so that’s kind of an excuse. Jeff Weaver has never been that good. And Mark Mulder was the Card’s #2 guy anyway and he has been injured aswell.
I went to csg’s link of Intl League stats–there’s not a single Richmond player with OPS of .700 or more. Lil JS is lousy but the Richmond squad is chock full of mediocrity.
Frank, they are not even mediocre. They just flat out suck.
Jay10, those are just the first 4 that came to mind. There are plenty more
csg,
You’re right–they suck. Looking at the minor league stats for Miss Braves and MB Pelicans finds lots of suckitude. There are no Miss players with OPS above .800, though a few do pass the Richmond threshold of .700. There’s not much of a cavalry to ride to the rescue of the big league club over the next year or two. Perhaps a pitcher or two (Startup), maybe a back up catcher (Salty or B Pena), and an outfielder with decent OBP but no power (Strong at Richmond has OBP of .356).
One caveat–the league stats are based on something like 2.7 plate appearances per team game. So it’s possible that players who have split the season between, say, Miss and Rich do not appear in either the Southern League or Intl League stats.
The interesting thing is that Hudson is injured as well. Pretty much all season. I have no other way to explain/excuse how awful he has been. In my book, (Because I am a Braves Fan) he is the biggest failure this season.