ESPN.com – MLB – Box Score – Blue Jays at Braves
Miserable Braves Loss Type 2.2 (b):Â “Braves rally to tie it up twice, but horrible, horrible bullpen blows it yet again.”
Sosa had a fairly typical outing — he pitched well for three innings, then gave up two in the fourth, one in the fifth, and one in the sixth. Typically, he left trailing 4-1, the Braves’ one run coming on a solo homer by Andruw in the fourth. He struck out five, but gave up two homers, three walks, and eight hits. He sucks, but you knew that. I would, if it mattered, suggest that a guy who can pitch well for an inning or two might be useful in the bullpen.
But the Braves came back! They got three in the bottom of the sixth to tie it. Thorman got his first hit with a hard single to tie up the game. Only Stockman then came in and allowed a run to give the Jays the lead. But the Braves came back to tie it again with Renteria doubling home Giles.
But then Yates loaded the bases. The Atrocious Paronto came in and allowed a single to score one run. Francoeur threw out a runner trying to score on a sac fly, but the Braves couldn’t come back again and lost, yet again.
The next JS book should be entitled:
“Trying to figure out how the Marlins whipped our asses on 1/5th of a budget.”
I had Paronto. Can I trade him to someone else? Or do our adoption papers become null and void after the game?
careful, carnage. I said something similar on the other thread and they didn’t like it.
apparently some people have problems with reality, and it’s not my fault that reality today says you have to have a shut-down closer to win. Not a bullpen-by-committee, not a group of league-minimum guys, but a dominant closer. Riviera, wagner, hoffman, papelbon, Ryan.
yes, theyre expensive. But we’ve blown like 14 saves this year and the pen has lost probably another 15. Is it not worth it?
That’s the Braves’ eighteenth loss by one run in twenty-eight games.
What if we dontwin again?
Post game is on wgst.com, for those who might be interested. Lemmer, Bill Shanks and Stu Klieteneck (sp?). If there is silence they are in commercial break.
Alex R. brought up Torres, Linebrink, and Scot Shields the other day. Is that who you’re talking about when you say we need a dominant closer? Who would you have gotten and how? We had one with Smoltz but it turned out that then we didn’t have the starting pitching. We have too many holes to fix with one guy.
Anyway, I need to go to work, so I’m out of here.
Later.
No offense, urlhix, bu honestly, what’s left to say on a postgame show at this point?
We know that offense can’t deliver in the clutch.
We know Sosa’s an emergency starter at best.
We know the bullpen’s execution… would be a great idea.
I guess Shanks and that other fellow could say, “You’ve seen it before and at 7:35 tomorrow night you’ll see it again.”
And Lemke wouldn’t be heard because he’s panicking from the flashbacks.
Could have had trevor hoffman or bj ryan, definitely. Or at LEAST a middle-tier closer, like todd jones or joe borowski. What’s sad is JS said all offseason that he was ‘looking’ and ‘we have the money’ and on and on, and yet he did nothing. This was NOT a budgetary issue–he’s come out and said 3 times this MONTH that he has the flexibility to make some moves.
Face it–he dropped the ball, and we’re closing in on being 20 games out.
Brian, J,
I guess I can count you among those who aren’t interested then huh?
/sarcasm
I’m listening now, url. thanks.
You know Mac, I thought of this a few days ago but never mentioned it. You really don’t have to put a team name next to a numbers on your title of the recaps. You could just give the score and we’d get the idea. Then, if the Braves ever win again, you could put “Braves” next to the higher number…and somebody might actually believe you.
I too have gotten to the acceptance stage. I really don’t expect much out of the Braves right now. A hit or two from McCann each night. A decent game for the bullpen after a horrible game by a starter. A horrible game from the bullpen after a decent game from the starter. That’s about it. Maybe a hit from Renteria and sloppy defense from someone, but nothing more. And, you know, I can honestly say I am not upset about this loss right now.
(And Smitty, the 8-2 stretch can still happen. If it does, you can expect a win tomorrow followed by a loss, then sweeps of the Yankees and Devil Rays.)
Where do you start? One pitcher can’t fix it. It defies logic. If you put every major league relief pitcher in a draft, at the beginning of the year, and TRIED to make the worst bullpen, it still would fall short of this one.
It’s not so much that I’m not interested as that, as Dilbert said, I admire their ability to get paid for this. The same way I admire the Braves’ ability to cash checks for repeatedly humiliating themselves in public.
I’m in Louisiana and hence don’t get to listen (or see) the Braves as often as I’d like, so I don’t know how good WGST’s broadcast is. I don’t question their ability as announcers, but as we’ve demonstrated, there are only so many ways to say the same thing.
Dan Kolb would be the best pitcher on this bullpen staff…
But that’s what’s so frustrating, carnage. You don’t have to sit on the worst bullpen in the majors. You can trade for available guys. You can call up AAA guys. You DO NOT have to keep guys like Yates and Paronto–and every Cox and Schuerholz apologist in here can admit that.
Sure thing, brad. I mostly listen to hear the folks calling in. Some of them are hilarious.
If I’m not mistaken, those of you who can’t listen to the games might be able to catch some of them online on WGST. They don’t play all of them for some reason, but they do some of them.
Just trying to be helpful, Brian J. Don’t throw me under the bus for that, ok?
I’m not throwing you anywhere, and I apologize if you thought I was. You and WGST are just the messengers. I just honestly wonder how many ways they can say, “Gee, these guys suck.”
Kolb 2-1 3.65 this year
That is my biggest hang-up about Cox and Schuerholz right now. I personally believe you really can’t do much right now, considering the talent available on the bench, in the minors, or in the trade market, but I know this bullpen isn’t the best we can do. I can live with the offense, it’s not that bad, and I can live with the starting pitching (Sosa sucks, but the rest is good enough to win with), but this bullpen has to be fixed. It’s as simple as that.
Releasing guys and trying other options has nothing to do with budgets and costs and stuff, so youre right, Rob. That’s what I’ve been saying all year.
And it’s hard to rebuild a bullpen during the season, but you know what, that’s what JS had 6 months this offseason to do.
And he gambled, and lost, and now we’re the laughingstock of the Major Leagues.
If you think that is all they say why bother even talking about it at all? Why even watch the games? C’mon dude, lighten up some. We’re only one day into Smitty’s “new positivism” and you’ve already given up on the concept.
I must have missed the positivism stuff, url. I’ve been in and out recently.
It was in the thread yesterday.
“Could have had Hoffman or BJ Ryan definitely”?
What are you talking about?
Look, as anyone who visited this site in the offseason knows, the bullpen was the one part of this team that caused the most consternation. No matter what anyone says, the realities of this team are unfortunately related to a corporately imposed budget.
You’re talking about a GM who, for a decade, spent plenty of money when he could. So now he’s just going to quit spending?
Why do you think he didn’t spend $47 Million on a BJ Ryan? I mean, Toronto outbid the Yankees, for crying out loud. Farnesworth took an extra nickel to go to New York so that he could be a setup guy. And guys like Joe Borowski and Todd Jones are gambles at best.
Last year, the Braves won with an uncertain bullpen going into the season & shored it up with a trade. They fired almost their entire bullpen in mid-1997 & won. Except for Smoltz, everyone was sub-par in 2003 and they won. This year’s gamble didn’t work. That’s the story.
It doesn’t mean that JS is stupid or complacent. It means that, for the first time in his 15-year tenure, his estimations failed and failed dramatically.
I hate this year’s results as much as anyone, but I’m not going to disregard the realities of this franchise and hurl invectives at JS or Bobby, people who’ve done nothing but win for 15 years. It’s beyond unbecoming. It’s silly.
I just have reached the boiling point with JS. Every day I look at the transaction wire and see teams making moves to improve their team. Every single day. And every single day, JS lets this once-proud franchise sink further into oblivion, even being passed by the Marlins, dude. That’s beyond unacceptable.
You’re right–he’s gambled a lot and it’s been fine. Dominant starting pitching makes up for a terrible pen, but this year we didn’t have that starting pitching, just the terrible pen. That’s not a gamble–that’s a mathematical certainty. And he did NOTHING! He took a guy who couldn’t even close last year when a lot of things went right and made him the closer this year, watching the Mets sign wagner and the phillies sign Gordon. His response? Reitsma. That’s not a gamble–it had already failed.
The failures by JS the last few years and too numerous to name. I don’t hate him or think he’s a bad guy. I do have to question what his logic is, at least 70 games into this season. Ok, your offseason ‘moves’ didn’t work. TRY SOMETHING ELSE. Why would you continue to do the same EXACT things that are 100% certain to fail? There’s no gambling in that. This bullpen gives up 5+ runs a game–every game, every time, no matter what.
I know he has financial constraints, and I’m not saying that hasn’t played a part in this. But we have good pitchers stuck in AAA who could help if he just doesn’t want to spend money. Stockman only got called up b/c reitsma got hurt–he’d still be down there!
BUT, he’s come out more than once and said he has the money to do something.
And yet every day, I check the wire, and nothing changes save for us falling further and further away.
What sense does that make?
Anyone for a Whatifsports.com league? It’s less depressing than watching these jokers.
I didn’t really blame JS for this offseason. The market sucked. Period. If he had signed BJ Ryan to a contract competitive with the Blue Jays’ final offer, I would have gone postal. I give him credit for trying to do something with Cormier and Villarreal, although I do wonder if he could have gotten more for Estrada. Todd Jones was not worth the money. It was not JS’s fault that Farnsworth decided to be a retard and go to New York, where not only is he second fiddle to Rivera, he’s also a guaranteed head case. There was nothing to be done about that.
I also don’t blame JS for the offense melting down. We all expect better. Some guys are seriously underperforming, and it’s perfectly reasonable to demand more and wait for things to regress to the mean. I think we may be seeing some of that already.
He also got snakebit by the injuries to Davies and now Thomson. We actually have a surplus of starters, once everyone’s back, with Smoltz, Hudson, Thomson, Davies, Sosa, HoRam, and James. We got spoiled by the Smoltz/Glavine/Maddux years, but really, if you have 2 good starters, which we do, and 3 serviceable onces (which we do when we rotate them around via crapshoot), you’re doing pretty well.
It’s the current state of the bullpen that I blame JS for. The time to go Dumpster-diving was several weeks ago. The time to start looking around AAA (not just Richmond) for a potential crap-for-crap trade was several weeks ago. Sure, get piles of junk. Use the waiver wire like scratch-off tickets. It might not work. But at least do something! One man’s trash is another man’s treasure. We might get lucky.
Now, the hole we’ve dug ourselves is getting so deep that it’s really not fixable any more. The real problem here is the bullpen, but everything else went to pot at the same time, and it started a spiral. Now, I don’t think there’s anything that can be done. We’ve put ourselves in a position to get extorted. We don’t have any way to engineer a good trade to fix the holes, because the only way to do that is to create more holes for this year. The deadline is in what, 6 weeks? Our “10 day survey” that we’re taking should have been done in the previous ten days, not the next ten.
DO SOMETHING! That’s my new motto. We’ve never been in this position for as long as I’ve been old enough to remember, and I’ve been curious for awhile now to see what’s going to happen. The verdict so far? Jack has happened. And that’s not right. Either make decisive moves to try to contend or wait until next year, but none of this sitting around or trying to cover 2-foot holes in the wall with cheap spackle, a la college students trying to get their room deposits back while really leaving garbage everywhere. Because that’s what it is now. DO SOMETHING!
We were like 3.5 games behind the Mets about a month ago after being 9 back. And then came the losing. I think it happend so fast it had managements heads spinning. I want to believe that management will put this puzzle together and make a push at the WC.
Just a thought…about a month ago my life took a major tailspin (still goin on) and thats when the Braves started thier slide (sorry guys). Just maybe, when i get my life in order, so will the team…im workin on it. Sorry? *shrugs*
I’m really sorry to hear you’re having troubles, shawn. I hope everything works out well for you.
As much as some of you guys trying to defend JS, I still think we have to thank Bobby and Ted Turner for this amazing run of titles, and we have to thank JS and TW for beating down this proud franchise.
Remember in the early 90s, we were expected to play in the WS every year, and it was Bobby who built that team and Ted who spent the monies. In the late 90s, the expectation was lowered to playing in NLCS every year but kept losing it. In the early 2000, the Braves can’t even get out of NLDS.
Seeing a patern here? In the mid-late 2000, the Braves will have trouble even making the playoff. Thanks to JS and TW.
I agree that JS signing a book about winning right now is in poor taste. Our bullpen sucks, no getting around it.
But our logic about JS’s shortcomings and laziness (someone said he was drinking mohitos by the pool over the winter when he should have been picking up arms…it’s freezing in Atlanta in the winter, are you nuts?) is fundamentally flawed.
We went into the year with spots for Blaine Boyer, John Foster, Joey Devine, and Chuck James. With the exception of Devine, who still showed a great deal of promise before his meltdown in San Francisco, each one was a proven effective reliever. To solidify this bunch, JS picked up two promising arms from Arizona. Months later, every one of these guys with the exception of Villareal (unfortunately) lost their spots in the rotation due to serious injuries (Foster and Boyer were scratched for the entire season).
How could JS foresee any of this? It’s shit luck, not bad management. We’ve brought up several kids from the minors in a desperate attempt to plug holes (Yates, Stockman, Paronto). What else can JS do really? He’s made it abundantly clear that he’s ready to make a trade and that “other GMs have his number.” What more can we do at this point?
The guy they really missed on was Tom Gordon. He was available and would have fit in the budget. I posted this in the offseason and got killed for it, but Gordon is having an awesome year for Philly, and could’ve helped keep the Braves in this race.
RobBroad4th, McBride, Devine, James, Villareal, and Cormier were all question marks, and Boyer and Foster were health risks entering into the spring training. The only known commodity in the bullpen starting the spring training was Reitsma, and thankly we all know he sucks even before the season started.
So, JS basically left the bullpen in a complete mess even before the spring training started. He basically hoped and wished the bullpen would come together fine, which to me is inexcusable. Just because the market sucks doesn’t mean JS can sit back and wish luck will prevail. The guy is paid to do a job. How can a general manager of any company (not to mention a GM of a baseball team) expose his firm to such a glaring risk without any cover or control? To me, that’s poor risk management.
I don’t have any problem with the offence. We seem to have no trouble scoring runs, its just that the starters/bullpen put us in the hole or blow a lead. You cant expect an offence to be clutch 3 of 4 times a night. Last night we tied it up twice just to see those runs given back. Even while they are always playing from behind the guys may strike out a lot, but they are producing. If we had a competent pitching staff this team would be known for its offence, right now it is obscured by pitching suckitude. I also think that if we pitched better and held a lead, the K’s and bad defence would go down because the team wouldn’t pressing as much.
Its my fault for last nights loss, I had Stockman and Yates. Like ANY self respecting coach would do, I am now resigning…..I have room in the car for you Mr. McDowell, if you’d like to join me……
Aram, I’ll buy that.
Look, I’m not here to make a living out of defending JS, but man, I think he’s getting dumped on more than is warranted (esp. lines like, well, ububba already addressed that one). I guess I’m just saying that I’d like to see some action, too, but it’s got to be good.
I didn’t realize how bad things were until I looked at the overall
Braves are tied with the D-rays for 4th from the bottom, ahead of only the Cubs, Pirates and Royals. I don’t see any point in trying to salvage this season. The guy in the office next to me is a Tiger fan, we’re trying to come up with a trade for Smoltz.
Oops. Link is to the overall MLB standings at ESPN.
I’m just glad my talk with LaRoche worked out. I told him to just not screw everything up and he listened. I’m so proud 🙂
Hopefully he will continue to try to stay out of the way. I’ve actually thought about working with him on the side to see if he could provide some help in the bullpen.
Anyway, so how much longer will Bobby stick with Sosa in the rotation? Some things are just getting ridiculous now.
The funny thing about people clamoring for JS’s head because he didn’t get a closer this offseason is that pretty much ALL of these losses are being decided well before the ninth inning. You may get the occasional closer you’ll use in a tight 8th, but Cox has never done too much of that (a handful of times with Smoltz, but not too often since Leyritz). But Trevor Hoffman is a guy who _never_ comes in before the 9th. A shiny closer doesn’t help much when you blow games in the first 7 innings. Just ask Smoltz about his postseason closing experiences.
Mac – at the rate they’re going, I think you’re going to run out of numbers for Braves Loss Types.
I first became a Braves fan when I lived in Atlanta back in 1979, 1980 and 1981. In those days the team invented ways to lose games almost every night. I remember how astonishing it was . But nothing can compare to what’s goingh on now. Can they not win just one more game?!!
Something “drama” like has to happen to get theses Braves to wake up! I thought it could’ve been when Francoeur hit that home run, but even then it didn’t seem to help. We need Andruw, or someone like that to get hit, almost intentionally (with him not getting hurt, of course) and then retaliate to stir things up.
Something needs to spark a fire under their butt to get this thing right again. Someone had mentioned a team meeting a while back on another thread. I think its way past that time and a meeting would only bring other people down. We need an incident or something to bring their minds out of the baseball duldrums and into the game again!
[url]http://whatifsports.com/mlb/boxscore.asp?GameID=27551913&ad=1[/url]
Hooray! We won!!
Oops. You get the idea.
JS just needs to totally rethink his entire bullpen philosophy. Get some guys who throw strikes, don’t walk people, and don’t give back every single run the offense scores the very next inning. I am getting so sick of seeing our bullpen give up a lead off walk the inning after we score (and the runner almost always ends up scoring it seems). A leadoff homerun would be easier to swallow. Get James up now and put Sosa in the bullpen. Jorge is tailor made for middle relief and could surely do a better job than Paranto, Villareal, and the other dreck. Even though I have long since accepted we aren’t making the postseason this year, it’s still difficult to put up with the horrible performance our relief pitchers are turning in.
Wyrn, you’ve got no idea how much time I’ve spent on WIS lately.
I simmed 10 World Series between the 96 Yanks and 96 Braves (correctly setting home fields and starters). The Braves won 6 of them in Game 7, 1 of them in Game 6, and lost the other 3 Series.
🙁 🙁 🙁
It’s also fun to sim things like the 2004-2005 Hawks versus the 1985-1986 Celtics @ Boston Garden.
At least Bobby knows what is wrong, it is obvious, bu you never know:
Asked what it would take to stop their skid, Cox said it would take, “Somebody to hold somebody” after getting a lead.
Maybe it’s just time to lose for a while. Things went awfully well for a long time–many, many things went right that probably should not have. So, now, maybe it’s just the cycle of life in baseball. I’m not happy about it, but in the long run, maybe thisis for the best (although I agree this team is a long way from being a championship team, but probably not a WC team).
As for JS signing books, he has an obligation to promote his book. You can’t expect him to spend 24 hours a day trying to make trades. Signing books isn’t the reason the team is losing.
I think, ultimately, the reason the Braves are losing now is (1) the payroll constraints finally kicked in. You could see it the last couple of years, where the Braves went from a 100 win team steadily downhill. They were lucky to win last year. It’s pretty obvious the Braves are in no position to sign a top-flight free agent; (2) the organizational approach to pitching is grossly overrated. Signing a bunch of high school pitchers hasn’t worked. The Braves developed this reputation for developing pitching with Glavine, Smoltz and Avery, but really, no one else has really made it other than Millwood (and he isn’t really a number 1), unless you count mediocre fourth starters like HoRam.
It’s interesting, too, if you look at the Braves philosophy of drafting high school players generally with the idea that “their ceiling is higher” than college players. Ryan Zimmerman was in college a year ago and now is rapidly becoming one of the better third basemen in the league. Meanwhile, Francouer has a .270 OBP. While the Braves have obviously developed good players, I think their organizational philosophy is outdate; first, they need to be concentrating more on Latin America, where the stars are rather than drafting every high school player in Atlanta. Second, they need to look more to college, which is increasingly becoming a breeding ground for the major leagues. Drafting 17 year olds because the scouts think he looks like a ballplayer doesn’t make sense anymore.
little subtle changes in-season have made js in the past. i think he is treating this season the same way (stockman, paronto, thorman, yates, james,etc.), but the fact is, this season is very different. the year mcgriff came, it seemed js got the picture. we needed something, not from within, but without (probably doesnt make sense, but anywho). laroche is just not cutting it, the bullpen needs a complete makeover, some starters need to be relievers, many need dfa’ing, and the braves just are not the type of franchise that will make those extreme decisions. i think that is the reason i really love our team, but it also makes times like these very difficult. but, on the contrary, the braves arent the type to fold a season and consider it a “building the future” year. we are more of the “do it on the fly” franchise. this year that is obviously not working. i refuse to say it is a “rebuilding” year because that is not the franchise i have grown to love.
on another note, i am sticking with the “laroche needs to go” frame of mind. he is down to .239 on the year and his power seems to be slipping away the longer this whole team funk continues. he outright sucks and unlike francoeur, i dont see much room for improvement. if not this year, i REALLY hope chipper is at first by spring of next season. betemit deserves a shot at a full-time postion.
this guy in Detroit isn’t happy about the Smoltz rumors. Something about trading Joel Zumaya for Smoltz.
Question: Should we look at trading Smoltz for Zumaya and Miner? Keep in mind this would also free up around $7 million that we could spend on the bullpen. Lets have a poll
1. yes
2. no
3. dont ever talk about Smoltz getting traded
Ok, it is day two of the “new positivism” I think everyone did a nice job talking to their adopted player. Now Yates and Paranto really need to be sat down and shown how to do some things, like getting the first batter out. Our hopes of a 6-4, 7-3,or 8-2 run is still possible. Last night was the closest to winning we have been in about a week.
Yes, we should look at it.
3!
http://www.detnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060621/SPORTS0104/606210393/1129
Sorry forgot the posts
Smitty, can we adopt new players? I don’t think my approach worked too well with Paronto yesterday.
Smitty, I put #3 on there just for you. I knew you would be the first one to respond to that
3, if he’s 50 and playing, i hope he’s a brave
Bill James once quoted from the movie “Ragtime”, James Cagney’s last role.
A museum’s on fire and an officious ass won’t let the firemen in for fear of damaging the artwork. Cagney asks him who the hell he thinks he is.
“I am the Cura-tor of the museum,” the man replies haughtily.
“In about 5 minutes; your not going to be the cura-tor of anything, you idiot! Move your ass!” Cagney growls.
Real logic that, like we had to burn the village to save it.
Sure, he can wave two World Series rings at me and ask who the hell I am.
Well…I’m someone who feeds and clothes my family everday by doing my job. I get a break there, now and again, based on my past performance. But if I do as pitiful a job as he’s done this year, I’ll be gone. And I don’t get to write my memoirs telling how my method of handling tougher economic times is superior to others.
It amazes me that GM’s adore that quote about getting rid of a ballplayer a year too soon rather than a year too late, but it never applies to them. They always feel screwed. Jack Welch took ten years grooming his replacement at GE, John; why are all your talented staffers moving on. Who do you think you are, Connie Mack?
Blistering? Sure! Right now the house is on fire and you aren’t the cura-tor of anything.
You can throw my copy of your book on the fire.
Thanks csg!
Hudson is going to night. Who has him? Tell him we need nine! A complete game might be our best shot at winning. That or 25 runs. Maybe both!
While I have always wanted him to retire a Brave, I do think that the right thing to do is to look at the possiblity. I would prefer that we not look at it until next year and only if we get to midseason and it turns out we still suck.
My uncle is a Cub fan and he called me last night. He told me that Braves fans now know what it is like to be a Cubs fan. He was watching the game and after the Braves fell behind he said, “Now watch them tie it.” THen they did. He told me how wer were going to lose two innings before it happened. Much like he did last year in the playoffs when he saw farnsworth warming up.
Count me among the group that doesn’t see the point in trading Smoltz. Joel Zumaya isn’t going to get this team to the playoffs in ’06, everyone here knows Smoltz will be a bargain next year, AND we’ll still need to replace him.
http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/news;_ylt=Ak0v247i7P0_CXBT9qmB9ugRvLYF?slug=ap-braves-smoltz&prov=ap&type=lgns
Just saw this on Yahoo..it’s probably already been talked about on the thread..but I decided to post it just in case..
“He told me that Braves fans now know what it is like to be a Cubs fan.”
Ehhh… I think we’d only know what that was like if we endured what happened last night consecutively for a century. And our arteries were filled with sausage-grease.
I think Smoltz being a great bargain next year is exactly what makes him desirable by teams with short winning windows.
Like Mac said, the decision is whether you want to concede the World Series in 2007 or not. I’m ready to.
I just don’t think that we’re that many pieces away from a potentially (yes, potentially) much better pitching staff. I also think that the 2-3 pieces we need are available right now, for a reasonable price.
The bullpen is problem #1. If we could get a #4- or #5-type SP, it would allow Bobby to move Sosa to the bullpen where he belongs. That move alone would give us a much stronger 7th-8th inning guy. I saw somewhere that Giles for Joe Blanton was being discussed. That’s a great deal for us, if we can get it done, because it gives us the SP to move Sosa and it gets Betemit in full time at 2B.
How about Kerry Wood? The Cubs need to move him so they can resign him later. He’d be great in our bullpen, possibly even as our closer. We have several guys to offer the Cubs, who have a lot of holes, and some cash in the hopper.
Two new, good pieces to the bullpen will make a WORLD of difference because it gives Bobby options he doesn’t currently have in long relief situations and tight games. This doesn’t require JS to trade away anybody expected to compete for next year’s starting rotation. It wouldn’t require JS to decide a year early about Andruw or Chipper. It wouldn’t look like he was throwing in the towel.
Would Kerry Wood be available for many games?
I haven’t followed his injuries that closely this year, but last time I checked, he was still hurt more often than not.
I think Wood is done. I was a big fan of getting him about an month ago, though.
I think we are 2 relievers away from being a decent pen. If everyone fell into a role that might make everyone out there more comfortable. I think our starters will be fine when Davies gets back.
OK, well if you’re talking about Smoltz for Zumaya and somehow getting Kerry Wood–those are two great arms that our bullpen could use. Blanton has been hot and cold since he came up, so I don’t know that he’s the best we could do for Giles.
Guys and ladies,
Marc’s comments above were the most pertinent from an outsider’s point of view (mine). It won’t cure what ails you currently, but it’s the only observation I’ve seen on here that has a new twist. It’s time for the Braves to expand their horizons and stop with all the high school “white bread” prospects who all grew up within an hour’s drive of Atlanta. There is a big wide world out there, and maybe it’s the gas crisis, but the Braves scouts can’t seem to get too far past 285.
I know that not every prospect meets this description, but enough do to see a trend. It might be time to take a new look. Take a look at your team’s composition versus others in baseball. Just might be food for thought…..that’s all.
Sorry, just my observation. Promise this is not meant as a knock, just an outsiders view.
Well I think we have as good of a scouting program as any big league organization out there and Francoeur’s OPS isn’t whats killing the team. For most of the season our pitching and defence has been our undoing.
Were we lucky to win last year, maybe. But luck has to factor in. We have been real unlucky this year. Look at last night. Paranto comes in with the bases loaded to get a ground ball for a double play. He got the ground ball, but it was hit in the only spot where a double play couldn’t happen. It really is a game of inches.
Our best hitter this season has been a local product, Brian McCann. Kyle Davies, another local guy, is young and been hit some, but he might have turned our season around in Boston last year. He is still learning to pitch and could be very good in a year or so. Francoeur has had some big hit for us this year and had a few big hits and a great throw last night.
The Braves have lacked a pitcher (save Farnsworth and Smoltz) that couuld come in and strike a guy out in a big spot. We have a pen of ground ball pitchers, Gregg McMichaels.
I just read we are looking at Joe Blanton of the A’s for Giles. Blanton was good at Kentucky.
What does Blanton’s contract look like. If he’s a one year rental then stay away.
I’ve got Hudson tonight. I told my boy he needs to throw a complete game three hit shutout with no walks if we want to snap this losing streak.
Smitty where did you read that?
Blanton won’t be in arbitration until after next season. He’s not having an exceptionally good year, but he was better last season. And our great pitching coach could fix him, I’m sure.
Cory, just tell McCann to bring the “I rode Bodacious for 9” T-Shirt
Blanton’s no Smoltz, but he’s better than the player he’d be replacing (Sosa). Wood is not a long-term fix (he’ll probably re-sign for less with the Cubs), but he’s been effective for an inning in the past.
Blanton is only a second year pitcher with pretty good potential. He has a fine rookie season last year, and is actually not doing as well this year. I personally like Blanton, but he doesn’t really solve any of the problems the Braves have at this moment.
I heard that at
http://www.mlbtraderumors.com
csg, let’s just pray McCann is in the lineup with the left handed Ted Lilly. No Todd Pratt sightings please.
Cory, I think you will be upset when you see the starting lineup.
I don’t think bringing another starter is the answer, unless Sosa can prove he can close.
I like Sosa in the pen because he throws hard and can stirke people out. Of course he can also walk a ton of people.
KC, we will all be upset. I’ll predict
Giles
Renteria
Jones
Jones
Frenchy
Diaz
Thorman
Pratt
Hudson
Braves Bullpen = Tons of Leadoff Walks and no K’s
The Braves scouting has not been anywhere near the best in the league for a long time; then again, it hasn’t been anywhere near the worst either. I do think that perhaps a change in philosophy could be in order, if only because when things stop working then it’s time to begin something new. Also, over the years many of the pieces that have held this all together – from upper management to the dugout to player development in the minors – have been eroded. That is, people have left. Moore’s departure this year is particularly ominous. I think that when it’s all said and done, Francouer may not be primary reason the Braves are losing, but he’s indicative of management’s resistance to face up to realities. There are just way too many free swingers on this team. One of McCann’s best qualities is that he’s a smart hitter… and smart hitters will work the count to get good pitches to hit, thus raising both their averages and productivity.
If that means looking beyond the Southeast, great. Smoltz is from Michigan, Maddux is from Nevada, and Glavine is from New England (I believe these to be the case, but I could be wrong). It wouldn’t be the end of the world for the Braves’ scouting teams to get active again in other parts of the country and world.
Blanton could be a nice pickup if he could work next year in a rotation with Smoltz, Hudson, and Hampton. He’s only 25 and projects to improve upon his struggles this season. Then again, he’s yet another guy who doesn’t strike guys out.
what’s our bullpen’s Era for the month of June. Can someone give us full stats for that. ERA, H’s, SO, BB
well, I don’t know how to do that split, perhaps Mac or someone else does, but the Braves’ bullpen has a 5.30 ERA for the season, which is worst in the National League. They’ve also struck out only 142 in 210.2 innings, and that on top of 115 walks.
I don’t get Blanton for Giles. I’m not somebody who’s going to post a novel about K/9, VORPS AND PROPS, or out differentials or whatever. I don’t even know what half of it means. I just don’t see how Blanton is anything more than a career 4th or 5th starter, and we’d just be reaching for him Trading for the sake of trading.
My experimental lineup for today:
1. Hudson (P)
2. Giles (2B)
3. Pratt (C)
4. Francouer (RF)
5. Chipper (1B)
6. Betemit (3B)
7. Renteria (SS)
8. Diaz (LF)
9. Andruw (CF)
The idea is that one of the first three can get on base with a walk or get hit by a pitch (leading off with Hudson gives us the element of surprise!), and we have a puncher’s chance at getting one home w/ Francouer. Then we move to the higher OBP guys and finally Andruw at the end.. maybe he’ll hit one off the opposing starter once he’s thrown a couple innings and is getting tired? LaDouche, the Canuck and the Hammer of Thor off the bench.
Well I think our scouting is fine. We started a lineup last year with all home grown talent and we won the NL East. There wern’t a lot of big name free agents out there this past winter. Decent players were getting way over paid. JS isn’t going to blow the bank on an AJ Burnett or Rudy Seanez.
We traded our best prospect, who isn’t from the South East, for Renteria. Renteria has been great for us. Our problems lie mostly with relief pithcing. We had a choice, pay Chipper, Andruw, and Hudson or get some pen help.
Let’s face it, our scouting is how we won 14 in a row! Our ownership not allowing us to spend money is costing us now.
Guys, I think we all need to remember the Braves are only promoting the local kids for marketing purposes. The Braves have plenty of kids who are from outside the southeast area. Remember Lerew is from Penn, Eric Campbell is from Indy I think, Elvis and Escobar are from overseas, Thorman is from Canada, KJ and Langy are from Texas. They are just examples, I am sure there are more.
Obviously my lineup would be better with McCann. That would never happen though.
Isn’t Andruw from Savannah? I think Chipper is from Dalton. Smoltz is from Chattanooga, Giles is from Macon.
Sosa lets too many guys on….we always talked about him being Houdini on the mound and the luckiest pitcher in the league last year–why on Earth would we want him in save situations?
Smitty, I think Bobby is from Marietta and JS is from Roswell.
Sosa’s control has been much better his last five or six starts. He is still giving up the long ball, however I think he could be good in the bullpen having only to concentrate on one or two innings rather than five or six.
Sosa is from Opp, Alabama
Wait…
Dwyane Wade was just fouled walking to his living room!
Apparently they’ve already awarded Wade several free throws to start next season.
Wade has released a statement that says,
“I have decided not to practice shooting any free throws over the summer. I had enough practice over the last few weeks to last me a life time. I also will be going around in public try to draw fouls.”
So if you see Dwayne in public stay 30 feet away, and maybe they won’t call a foul.
Who am I kidding, better make it 60 feet.
Look, to clarify, I don’t have a problem with Braves’ scouting in general; I was just supporting those who said that perhaps the Braves should broaden their views. The regional pattern has primarily been from the last few years. If anything, the examples of Andruw and Furcal and Javy Lopez (etc.) should show that the Braves can get guys from outside the SE – and do it well.
I also understand that Francoeur and McCann et al. are good for marketing, but my guess is so is winning. I’m willing to bet the July ticket receipts this year won’t be as good as they were last year.
What is Hudson looking at when he’s pitching.
http://atlanta.braves.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/news/article.jsp?ymd=20060620&content_id=1514715&vkey=news_atl&fext=.jsp&c_id=atl
maybe a bird or his tatoo!
The July ticket sales wouldn’t have been good any ways.
I guess the odds are against us again:
TOR: LHP Ted Lilly (6-7, 4.12 ERA)
Lilly has struggled in three career starts against the Braves. He is 0-2 with a 7.12 ERA in those appearances and has surrendered seven home runs in only 16 2/3 innings.
ATL: RHP Tim Hudson (6-5, 3.88 ERA)
Hudson has had incredible success against Toronto in his career. In 13 starts, the Atlanta right-hander has gone 10-1 with a 2.32 ERA. Over that span, Hudson has also held the Blue Jays to a .219 batting average.
This should (but won’t) squash the Smoltz rumor:
http://www.ajc.com/sports/content/sports/braves/stories/0621smoltz.html
Lily was good his last time out. I don’t remember what he did exactly, nor do I want to look it up.
I don’t think Sosa would be the option at closer. He’s too valuable as a setup guy or when you need someone to go 2 innings. I suggested Kerry Wood as a possibility as our closer. There may be other options on the market, I just haven’t seen anything. The real benefit of Wood is that you could get him for not too much, and the Cubs need just about everything so JS has lots of options.
Wood with a broken arm IS better than Paranto, I guess.
Before anyone asks, ESPN’s “Rumor Central” on the Braves is just a regurgitation of the AJC article.
Smitty,
Lilly went 6IP 4H 8K 4BB
in June he’s pitched 20.2IP and 7ER
20K’s in his last 2 starts.
Maybe we can get those 25 runs off Lilly. We just need to hold the Jays to like 13 or 14 until the 8th. On that pace we will win 26-24. If we can stop the Jays two point conversion, we will be ok.
That is one situaition where having Jordan on the team wouldn’t be so bad.
20 K’s in two starts! Ok I am calling Frenchy right now!
Jordan’s on the DL so he’s still no help. Guess he’s as useless in Football as he is in Baseball. I bet the docs could clear him for a football game though.
Smitty,
I agree with your defense of the Braves’ scouting/approach to building an organization. I mean the approach has worked for 14 years and suddenly, after an 8-game losing streak it’s all wrong?
We certainly have had a lot of success with Georgia boys of late, but should one suggest that we should not have drafted McCann, Francoeur, Davies, Boyer, and McBride. It is remarkable that we have this many recently drafted guys contributing at the Major League level, no matter where they are from.
However, I am not so sure that those who think we only look at Atlanta guys and high school pitchers have paid that much attention to the Braves’ draft picks or minor league makeup. Look at the last two drafts’ top ten picks by the Braves, mostly from out of the region, with a fair number of college arms.
And to suggest we don’t scout enough in Latin America? Andrus, Marte, Andruw, Capellan, Brayan Pena, Marte, Betemit, Colon etc. All picked up as undrafted FAs out of Latin America (okay, and Curacao). We get much more out of the region than many teams with deeper pockets.
Ozzie Guillen is at it again.
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=2494491
i think i like the suggestion of trading for a starter. what teams could use giles and laroche in a package deal? if we traded for a starter, then sosa could go to the pen where he belongs, and thomson could go as well so he doesnt blister up again. thomson and sosa out there means we could send paronto and yates back down. when davies comes back, he could provide another strong arm in the pen and we could cut ties with reitsma. a sosa, thomson, davies, stockman, remlinger, ray, mcbride pen sounds a whole lot better than what we have now. if that happened, then we wouldnt have to worry with the vulture anymore and he could just be out there to take up space until something better comes along. i dont really want to trade giles but if losing him could turn this ballclub around then i am all for it.
Is everyone of the general opinion that, assuming he is still around, Giles is out of here after next season via free agency? Does anyone think that we’ll actually try to keep him? Or do we have too many good infield prospects?
There hasn’t been an announced starter for Saturday at Tampa Bay. Could “not announced” be code for “Chuck James?”
I dont think another starter is the answer….how many wins would Hudson and Smoltz have if we had a decent bullpen? How many games would we have won if we had a decent bullpen? As for Wood….it worked with Smoltz, but the cost of getting Wood would probably be prohibitive
CSG,
I think I heard Woody Paige call Mariotti that too on Around The Horn one day. Of course, I can think of some better terms for Jay. All of which start with “dumb” and end in “ass”
The point is that a new #4 or #5 SP allows us to move Sosa to the BP. That is two improvements with one trade (and maybe three improvements with one trade if you trade Giles for the SP (Blanton?) and plug in Betemit). That doesn’t address the need for a closer (Sosa’s not it), hence Wood. I don’t think Wood would be too expensive given that the Cubs need a lot of help.
Giles won’t have a chance to leave via FA because he’ll be traded. But if he isn’t traded for some ridiculous reason, the Braves won’t seriously try to re-sign him.
I could have sworn that I heard Mike & Mike this morning say that there was a report in Chicago saying Kerry Wood might be done for the yearr. Anyone else hear that?
Oh well, that would ruin the only good idea I’ve ever come up with.
Marcus is gone. If we don’t trade him, he’ll leave for the West Coast as an FA. Plenty of teams over there would want him. If he rebounds, that is.
This says that Wood pitched a simulated game and started getting fatigued at about 60 pitches. He’s eligible to come off the DL on Thursday. Sounds like he’s headed to the bullpen.
http://chicago.cubs.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/news/article.jsp?ymd=20060620&content_id=1514552&vkey=news_chc&fext=.jsp&c_id=chc
Message to Ozzie Guillen: Welcome to life in the big city.
Hmm, what exactly do attending WNBA games and attending a Madonna concert have to do with tolerance of homosexuals? Am I missing something, Ozzie?
Ozzie being Ozzie
Maybe we should fill the water coolers in the dugout w/ Red Bull. Maybe that will help get these guys motivated. If not, at least they will be up all night thinking about how bad they played.
“Guillen also told Couch that he has gay friends, attends WNBA games, went to a Madonna concert and plans to go to the Gay Games in Chicago.”
That has got to be one of the funniest things I’ve read in a while. Uhhh… I swear I have nothing against the gay community…I loved Rent, where pink, and have an aunt who wears flannel. What an idiot!!!
Ozzie Guillen is an assclown. I wish he’d get punished for that, although I doubt he will. I don’t like Mariotti, but I wouldn’t call him that, and certainly not to a bunch of reporters. I wish Bob Watson would do something about this guy’s mouth. What an embarrassment he is.
And Ozzie, by saying that, I think you’re just proving the point of his column. Which is that your whole Beangate thing makes you look like a classless yahoo. Score one for Jay.
If I were gay I would be pissed that Ozzie said that. Not because of the term he used, but by associating Mariotti with my group.
Rome all-stars moving up
http://www.ajc.com/braves/content/sports/braves/stories/0621minors.html
Funny smitty….
I wish football season would start.
I’ll second that Smitty…I’m a big Dolphins fan, real excited about this season, we have a QB finally!!!! (I think)….and I dont mean Harrington…..
I think I feel confident in the USA Soccer team:
http://sportspickle.com/features/volume5/2006-0621-ghana.html
I’m with Jenny 100%. Ozzie’s response is actually more remarkable than his actual quote. Not only did he go to the ‘um… I have (fill-in-the-blank) friends!” card, but he tried to explain it away by claiming cultural differences: “Guillen said that in his native Venezuela, that word is not a reference to a person’s sexuality, but to his courage.”
Ozzie, perhaps it was your equation of homosexuality with cowardice that was the problem in the first place. But he’ll never be punished, not in baseball.
Speaking of football, it seems that the Falcons are the only Atlanta team with a stable ownership situation. That they are the only Atlanta team with a shot to win anything this year is perhaps not a coincidence.
Being a Vols fan, I have a terrible taste in my mouth that I would like to get out. However, I am not so sure we are going to be any better
Ok, I sent Frenchy a Frank and told him not to strike out 4 times. He says he will limit to only one. He said he will swing at a pitch to protect Andruw Jones stealing second early in the game.
Good News…LaRoche is fired up. I showed him film of when he’s swinging the bat good (it was actually film of his brother Andy in the Dodgers organization but our little Adam is not the brightest) and he saw that the key is to not stikeout or ground into double plays so much. So my work is done for the day. Now it is time for him to take that and let it translate out on to the field.
JoshQ, good job, but I dont think LaRoche will play tonight. Keep him motivated for pinch-hit situations
He was pretty excited…I’ll tell him to take it easy on the meds and stay ready.