489 thoughts on “Game Thread That Time Forgot: June 27, Braves at Yankees”

  1. Early Line-up: a Pete Orr sighting

    Orr 2B
    Renteria SS
    Jones 3b
    Jones DH
    McCann C
    Frenchy RF
    LaRoche 1B
    Thorman LF
    Langy CF

    are we trying to showcase Langy or just giving Andruw rest. Anyway Orr better learn to hit like he did last year.

  2. if you all don’t mind I have another trivia question…

    Name two of the three Atlanta Braves who have homered from both sides of the plate in a game?

    Furcal did didn’t he?

  3. By the way, I really miss Kelly Johnson. I expect him to be a big contributor next year.

  4. Well, it’s good to see that Bobby found a way to put a pitcher in the lineup even with the DH, and in the lead-off spot. I would prefer to bat HoRam than Pete Orr. I’m not sure if I’m kidding.

  5. Berryhill was a switch hitter, right? It has to be some obscure Brave. He can fall in there with Kent Merker’s no hitters

  6. cant say I’m too upset too see Giles out of that spot, but I would rather see Renteria then Giles.

  7. About two years ago I saw the Tigers beat the Yankees in Yankee stadium. A-rod made a couple of errors too. What a great day it was to be in that dump.

  8. Next home game I am taking rolls of toilet paper and a lighter.

  9. There really aren’t that many to choose from:


    1 Chipper Jones 331
    2 Terry Pendleton 71
    3 Rafael Furcal 57
    4 Mark Lemke 32
    5 Biff Pocoroba 21
    6 Damon Berryhill 18
    T7 Johnny Estrada 13
    T7 Ken Henderson 13
    9 Ted Simmons 10
    10 Quilvio Veras 8
    11 Darrel Chaney 7
    T12 Mike Mordecai 6
    T12 Ken Caminiti 6
    T14 Bobby Bonilla 5
    T14 Albert Hall 5
    16 Wilson Betemit 4
    T17 Mark Whiten 3
    T17 Otis Nixon 3
    19 Walt Weiss 2
    20 Bob Beall 1

    That’s through this year, so Betemit’s moved up a bit. Pocoroba!

  10. So who would like to explain the point of today’s Devil Rays-Dodgers trade to me?

    Oh, and every time Marcus is not in the lineup, I come up with all sorts of conspiracy theories. I can’t wait for July 31.

  11. The simple explanation for that lineup is Bobby is stacking the batting order with lefties against a hard throwing rh pitcher while also giving AJ and Giles a day off and Orr and Langerhans some at bats. Of course Giles has a .661 ops vs righties while Orr has a .592 ops plus Orr has been utterly dreadful in his starts this year. But hey we’ve been begging for Giles to be moved out of leadoff spot, so maybe Bobby is finally listening?

  12. Well, looks to me like that trade is the result of the Devil Rays accepting that they’re not very good and trading away older players, and the Dodgers not accepting that Dioner Navarro is a good catcher.
    Toby Hall has a .261 OBP, doubling the number of qualifying NL players with worse OBPs than Jeff Francoeur. Seo is disposable, but I think Navarro’s good enough by himself to win this deal for the D-Rays.

    This is Bobby Cox trying to threaten Marcus Braves fans who want Giles traded- if he is traded, I’m gonna be playing Orr a lot.

  13. Well if Gammo can’t come back, that means a job is opening! A a recent college grad, I’ll take it!

  14. Jay… thank you! I read that this morning… I’ve been waiting to see what they would ever say since they still haven’t said anything on the MS Braves main page.

    But… I’ve also read this in several places….
    “Matt Esquivel was suspended indefinitely for team disciplinary reasons.”

    So I was a bit more relieved when I read what Blauser had said… his comments don’t sound like everything else I’ve been reading so I’m not too sure what’s going on but I guess I should quit being so nosey too! lol.. but I can’t help it

    Matt’s parents were at the games during MS’s 10-game homestand before they went out on the road trip …which MS’s back at home for 5 games now

  15. I hate that about Gammons. I didn’t care for his opinions often, but he loves the game so much..

  16. And the Mets are playing the Red Sox, which should make many people on the board happy- one of them is guaranteed to lose.

  17. Renteria is number 11 and Giles is number 22….which is secret code for Renteria should be leadoff and Giles is much more suited to be a number two hitter.

  18. Orr gets an infield hit. It’s a sign. I’m not sure of what, other than that Jeter’s not a good defensive player.

  19. I am actually watching that game, because the matchup is a lot better than HoRam vs. the Yankees.

    They’re rehashing the 1986 World Series over there. Replete with “Time of Your Life” and corny trumpet music. Ear-splitting.

    Seeing Manny Ramirez standing next to Jim Rice was hilarious, though. I don’t even know quite why.

  20. Rob, obviously Orr just spotted his mistake. No, leadoff guys are not supposed to get on base.

  21. Michael Kay is the single most unwatchable announcer on TV. Although Hawk Harrelson is pretty darn close.

  22. I love watching games on different networks and hearing the same “it will be hard for the Braves to win the division” consolation speech every time.

  23. All right, place your bets.

    What’s higher tonight, K’s or LOB?

    I’m leaning toward LOB.

  24. Me too. LOB well ahead of K’s. Even these guys won’t strike out against Jaret Wright.

    It’s getting hard to remember when Chipper was a real threat to opponents.

  25. Thanks, Davey. Now I’m going to have a migraine for a week just thinking about that. I think Fire Joe Morgan’s servers would explode.

  26. It’s getting hard to remember when Chipper was a real threat to opponents.

    Last night?

  27. I think Brian should take BP with Francouer and show him what plate discipline looks like.

  28. I would like to pose a question to everyone tonight:

    Who’s more obnoxious – Red Sox or Yankees Fans?

    I would have easily said Yankee fans before 2004. Since winning a World Series, i think it’s entirely possibly Red Sox fans are the most sickening and annoying people on the planet.

    Yankee fans are still obnoxious and act like they are better then everyone, but I did hear respectful applause to Francouer’s great DP.

    Not sure I would have heard the same from Boston fans.


    (Oh…and glad we scored first!!!!!)

  29. I agree Lando. We should send Jeff to AAA so he can learn how to hit at a major league level. Does anyone else see how that argument is inherently flawed?

  30. By the way, as unhappy as I am with Frenchy’s OBP and I understand and somewhat agree with Mac’s stinging criticisms of Frenchy, the man does have a ridiculous arm in right and pours in a lot of ribbies. He needs to improve in several areas, but he has done very well in at least 2 things.

  31. Red Sox fans by a long shot. They still seet themselves as the martyrs of baseball.

  32. Let’s see what Landogarner says when Frenchy whiffs on three sliders a foot off the plate.

    Go Braves.

  33. RobBroad4th, I actually think having McCann batting in front of Frenchy has helped Frenchy in his plate discipline.

  34. See, Rob…that’s what I think too. That’s my problem. And Yankee fans have shown they will applaud a good play by the other team. I don’t see that from Sox fans.

  35. I much prefer Yankee fans to Red Sox fans. And I much prefer the Yankees to the Red Sox.

    Well, you may think people calling for Francoeur to be sent down is dumb…but what about deeming him an MLB regular after one ground-ball single through a drawn-in infield?

  36. Alex, that’s only Frenchy’s 4th assist this year against 6 errors. Maybe he’s stopping runners from taking extra bases, but from what I see, I doubt it.

    Rob, that’s been my experience with Red Sox fans and Cubs fans too- martyrdom makes them intensely annoying.

  37. Rob, I will say “damn it’s a good thing frenchy can make great defensive plays like that one in the first inning and that hit in the first inning that SCORED A RUN”

  38. Brian,

    The threat though of Jeff’s arm in right field has probably prevented that extra base a lot this yr. It’s undeniable that overall, his defense in the outfield is a huge asset.

  39. What will you say when he K’s 20 more times before his next walk? What will you say when he doesn’t get a runner home from third with less than 2 outs? “He runs fast! Look at that cannon, too!”

    I don’t want to come off the wrong way though. I really like watching Jeff play and I think he’ll be good, but on June 27, 2006, you can not say correctly that Jeff Francouer is an above-average major league hitter.

  40. Back to the Frenchy thing, I have to say I was on the ‘send him down’ train but honestly, he is just not the biggest problem on this team. And his defense and arm and RBI’s have been huge assets in a positive way. I have come around on him being the right fielder, however, what I would say is that we could use a new hitting coach in 2007 who will force Jeff to grow up and become more disciplined.

    As for the Red Sox and the Yanks and their fans, this has been a 2 year turn around for me. I still hate the Yankees, but not with the passion and fervor I did in 1996 and 1999 (of course). Plus, again, their players and their fans just seem to act better and less annoying then the Sox and their fans.

    I think the actions of the Boston fans in Atlanta was the final straw for me…kind of like the Cubs fans in the 2003 Playoffs. It was SICKENING.

  41. Rob, I never said anything close to that. I was just making fun of all the people who are calling for him to be sent down.

  42. Well, I think there is one thing we can all agree on…JS and Bobby will never send Frenchy down to Richmond. So, we can sit and argue all we want about a move that will never happen.

  43. Considering most these Boston “fans” jumped on the band-wagon in 2004, when they finally beat the Yankees. Boston “fans” are far, far more obnoxious than the Yankees.

    Boston tries to play the “underdog” role but they are far from “underdogs.” What they really have is the inferior young brother-syndrome, where they do anything for attention, and after ACTUALLY acheieving success, gloat and brag about it forever.

  44. I don’t think anyone is saying he’s above average. His batting average says everything. What I believe, however, is he’s no Quad A player.

  45. You think so? I’m a Braves fan and I think we should have traded for Toby Hall today. You’re on my side…. RIGHT?!

  46. Lando, we are all Braves fans, but that does not mean that we necessarily agree as to the best way to run the team. Which, by the way, is not any of our jobs anyway. But, it’s fun to speculate and argue.

  47. Yeah that game in Atlanta really turned me off to anything RedSox, especially their annoying girl fans.

  48. I never said I wanted Francouer to be sent down, but, going back to the earlier thread, anyone that says that Adam LaRoche is worse than Jeff Francouer right now is misled. Long term, would I take Jeff Francouer over Adam LaRoche? Absolutely, but on June 27, 2006, Adam LaRoche has been a better hitter. Wow, that hurts to say.

  49. tggr, well said…we are all ‘mini GM’s’ in here and none of us are perfect…but it’s always fun to speculate.

    But I do feel the best mind in our organization bolts for Kansas City. I think losing Dayton Moore maybe the biggest loss for the Braves, long term, in the last few years.

  50. My point by saying we should all be on the same side is that we shouldn’t argue about silly things. We all have our own opinions on how this club should be run.

  51. Regarding the under dog thing, no true Sox fan anymore can honestly say that. They won the world series in 2004 and they have the 2nd biggest payroll every year in Baseball.

    They are underdogs about as much as Brazil is an underdog in the World Cup!

  52. I agree with you when you clarify with that, Lando. That’s why I sarcasticly made the Toby Hall comment.

  53. I disagree Rob, I think a lot of people in here put too much faith in stats. Someone can get a big hit that ends up winning the game but his stats don’t reflect that. That’s the kind of player Frenchy is and I don’t ever remember Huckleberry Hound winning a game for us so I would say no he’s not a better hitter.

  54. It was nice to see the Red Sox get their asses handed to them by Chicago last year.

  55. Rob, the thing I hate about Adam is that he has shown zero improvement from his rookie season.

  56. Adam LaRoche hit two HUGE homeruns in the playoffs in the last 2 years. Those were a bit bigger than a walkoff grandslam against the Nationals in May.

  57. Rob-

    Couldn’t agree more. I hope the Red Sox wait another 100 years for a title.


    I agree about taking Frenchy any day of the week over Huckleberry!!!!

  58. We have taken alot of off the field hits this year – Leo, Drayton….before that, we lost a good Schuerholz deputy to the Brewers. When you’re the best organization in sports, people want to beg, borrow, and steal from you. Kinda like football when the best coordinators become the hot commodity.

  59. Lando, that hit is reflected in the statistics. A player who gets hits will have stats that show it; those who don’t, won’t.

    Jeff Francoeur makes outs. Lots and lots of outs, the 2nd most in the National League. The more outs Jeff makes, the fewer chances the hitters behind him will have to score runs. He does have power and drive in runs, but all the opportunities that never develop because #7 is not on base probably outweigh the good things he does do. Similarly, the threat of his arm is just not there this year. He’s made more errors- which by definition must allow at least one runner to advance an extra base- than he has thrown out baserunners.

  60. Stu, Adam will not hit big homerun in the playoff every year. The way he is playing, he will be lucky to still have a job in two to three years.

  61. And Stu, if Bobby has his way, he’d make all of us suffer through 3 more years with Adam at 1st because of those 2 home runs. I don’t deny Adam had his moment, but his low point for me, on a personal level is not the strikeouts…it’s that lollygag play that cost John Thomson earlier this yr. and is symbolic of the extreme lack of effort I see in Adam. Sorry, I admit my bias here but he is my least favorite Brave to have to watch play.

  62. I’ve seen Frenchy improving lately and that’s more than I can say for Huckleberry Hound.

  63. I remember Laroche walking into home in Game 4 last year and getting tagged out. The run didn’t seem to matter at the time, but we lost that game.

  64. Did Gammon’s doctor need an insider pass to get beyond the skull and examine the brain?…..

    Sorry, in all seriousness I wish him the best and hope he fully recovers.

  65. Rob,

    Exactly! If a guy hustles his arse off and still gets out, ok, but the way Adam plays is completely deflating and depressing and he should not be our first baseman.

  66. Look, I’m not here to say Adam LaRoche is who I want as our first baseman. He’s not. He’s very, very average. But to argue that Francoeur is currently a better player than LaRoche, or that you’d rather have Francoeur up in a big spot is just willful ignorance.

    “Yeah two homeruns in a playoff that went where?”

    So, LaRoche’s performance doesn’t matter because the team didn’t advance? 1) For reasons that should be apparent even to someone with no knowledge of sports, that makes no sense. 2) How can anything Francoeur’s done be counted in his favor, then?

  67. Aren’t we all tired of fighting about LaRoche yet? I am. I got tired of it last year.


  68. This is what I remember..

    Frenchy diving and making a great catch and winning the game for us a while back..

    Adam getting outhustled by Nick Johnson…we lose.

    Yes…yes,Frenchy it is

  69. Our brains are wired to remember the spectacular like Frenchy’s grand slam or his gunning down baserunners. They tend to overlook Frenchy’s 64 strikeouts and numerous harmless popouts. But in the long run, all those boring outs do more damage than Frenchy’s plays do good.

    LaRoche is more boring, but more effective in that he doesn’t make nearly as many outs with his similar BA and greater power.

    And I see HoRam is trying new ways of being annoying.

  70. I got Frenchy in the great Adam v Jeff cage match. Effective and lazy, even ‘percieved laziness’ does not inspire teammates nor does it inspire confidence in them.

  71. Exactly Tggr, it’s the little things that stats can’t measure that also make Frenchy better and it’s something all the stat heads can’t perceive.

  72. True, but Frenchy’s popouts are functionally the same as strikeouts with runners on base- they advance no runners. And when there is no one on base, it doesn’t matter how you make an out.

    LaRoche is still a more productive player. I’d like for that to change- LaRoche is average at 1B with a good chance he’ll never be any better- but he’s definitely ahead of Frenchy right now.

  73. Starting Orr at 2nd is Cox’s response to everyone upset with Giles’s performance. it’s like “look at my alternatives!”

  74. True, Rob, and he’s even thrown fewer pitches. I am feeling optimism rising. Took an inning or so to figure out what it was.

  75. Ok, simply put:

    LaRoche: .244, 11 HR, 39 RBI’s, 0 SB
    Francouer: .252, 15 HR, 56 RBI’s 1 SB

    Plus, Frenchy is better defensively.

    The 1 category LaRoche wins is his .331 OBP to Jeff’s .271. But .331 is not exactly good either.

    Where exactly is Adam better then Jeff? I am trying to wrap my mind around this????

  76. Don’t forget the higher K ratio for Laroche and his inability to hit lefties.

  77. Let me re-state…Frenchy is leaps and bounds better defensively at his position (right field) then Adam at his position (1st Base).

  78. .331 is about average. .271 is craptastic. That is just incredibly, amazingly awful. That IS the difference between them. And FWIW, defensive metrics do not agree about Frenchy’s allegedly superior defense. Not saying LaRoche is any good, either, but a few good plays does not a Gold Glover make.

    This seems like an intangibles argument. Which is basically impossible to argue.

  79. Seriously he didn’t even TRY!!!! How the hell can anyone think he is better in ANY way! You must be blind.

  80. Jenny, .331 is not good. Nobody denies that .271 is horrific and Jeff needs a lot of ‘maturing’. Maybe Pendleton needs to go.

    But the hustle, the defense is better, and simply put, he has more offensive output then Adam.

    I am sorry…you cannot (in this case) only judge the comparison on OBP when there are so many othger categories Jeff wins out?

  81. THere he goes again – not going 150%. He should have run on the CHANCE that the ump ruled he missed it.

  82. I rest my case now..
    I’ve been argueing this Adam/Frenchy thing since on the previous thread…but now I rest my case..

  83. That 60-point OBP difference is huge. Assuming a player gets 4 plate appearance in a game, that means Frenchy makes one extra out every four games.

    Other numbers you left out:

    Frenchy has less power. Adam is slugging .473, Frenchy .440. (Adam has 18 doubles, Frenchy 9 in more at-bats.)
    Frenchy’s been caught stealing 5 times, Adam 1. Each CS loses us a baserunner AND an out.
    Frenchy’s made six errors, Adam four.
    Frenchy’s grounded into 6 DPs, Adam 4.

    That’s why we say LaRoche is having a better year than Frenchy.

  84. And once again, Francoeur’s mistakes this year are the result of being over-aggressive and Adam’s the result of being sleepy.

  85. Brian did you just miss that play? Cause you must be blind if you still think he is better after watching it.

  86. Just in case there’s a war between our two sides later, I wanted to make sure my camp was known: I’m with Jenny, Stu, and Brian J.

    Now, I haven’t said anything before now, because really, what’s the point?

    Everyone thinks that he/she is right, nothing anyone says will change anyone else’s mind.

    That said, Jenny, Stu, Brian J. and I are right.

  87. All right, throw the defensive metrics out the window, then. Here are my observations about their defense:

    LaRoche: occasionally lolly-gags, has little range, pretty good at digging throws out of the dirt. Many brain farts.

    Frenchy: pretty good range but not great at playing awkward hops, great arm but often just airmails stuff to the backstop, thereby allowing runs to score and runners to advance anyway. Occasionally he gets lucky and gets an assist, but there are a lot of wild throws.

    I don’t think the defensive difference is as big as people think it is. Not enough to really make up for that OBP gap, either.

  88. Brian..I could argue those stats with you all night..
    But it won’t get us nowhere. Let’s all focus our hate at where it should be.. Jeter, Giambino..Damon and A-Rod.

  89. Let me put it a way I know Mac will appreciate (and get annoyed with):

    Watching Francouer is like watching “24”. Exciting, sometimes awesome, sometimes unbelieveable, sometimes, he’s a mountain lion trying to eat Kim Bauer (i.e. OBP).

    Watching LaRoche is like watching “Law & Order”, but the current years with the rotating castmembers…a dull procedural, predictable with the strikeouts, hits the occasional home run like L&O gives you an occasionally good episode.

  90. This arguing has gone on too long. I just want to win. If Todd Pratt can hit a 3 run homer and win, fine with me (even though I don’t like him on the team). Everyone on the team has room for improvement. Enough time.

  91. francoeur is not leaps and bounds better defensively. i swear some people just don’t watch the same games i do. he throws hard from right, laroche throws hard from first. francoeur’s range isn’t any good because his jumps on batted balls are about the same as the ones he gets stealing bases.

    defensive stats suck, but he’s last in fielding percentage among NL regulars, 8th in range factor and seventh in zone rating. his arm is powerful but pretty wild, and he takes awful angles to the ball. laroche is pretty bad too, but you francoeur people seem to be arguing more about who is better to watch than who is more valuable in winning games.

  92. Agreed. And if the Yankees can’t hit Horacio Ramirez, then Frenchy and LaRoche are clearly better than they are. Am I right?

  93. I love “Law and Order” and I’ve never been able to get through an episode of “24”. :-D

    But yeah, let’s move on.

  94. A six pitch inning against ARod, Posada, and Williams. HoRam, you’re all right.

  95. I think that blow to the head jolted his memory and he thinks he’s pitching in 2004.

  96. Lost in the surprisingly entertaining argument on the merits (or lackthereof) of Frenchy vs. Huckleberry, is a really nice performance, so far, by Mr. Horacio Ramirez.

    I want to just say this kid has really surprised me in a good way since coming back from injuries. That, LAROCHE, is showing guts and playing with heart. Props to what I am seeing in 2006 from Ramirez.

  97. If I can inject just some humor into the long drawn out hell that has become the 2006 baseball season, then I’ve done my job.

    I also want to point out that Jaret Wright is a doodie-head, and Derek Jeter once ate a baby seal. Its on YouTube people. Blood everywhere.

  98. Jenny,

    I am a huge “24” fan, it maybe my favorite show on Television, even when it’s completely unrealistic. “Law & Order” on the other hand…snore!

    But actually kinda funny that you feel that way…it may have offered some interesting symbolism to the LaRoche vs. Frenchy debate! :-)

  99. Better to watch? I could care less who is bette to watch. Huckleberry Hound doesn’t give 100% half the time and that last play where he didn’t even bother to run was another example of it. The intangibles are what seperate Huckleberry and Frenchy and no stats you want to throw around will change that.

  100. what Latnam and Stu don’t realize is that while they post here their wives both just left my house.

  101. Latnam,

    Can you give us the link to Jeter eating a baby seal? I would like to see that…(not sure why….still, compelled…)

  102. yeah, lando, and intangibles are more about how fun the game is to watch as opposed to what wins games. teams win games by scoring more runs than the other team, not by how much dirt gets on the uniforms.

  103. I also want to point out that at some point last year, I was complaining about LaRoche, and there were quite a few people defending him because of his “intangibles,” and now the egg has turned. Do eggs turn? The yolk has turned?

  104. Jeter is the only guy on the Yankees I like. He seems like a good guy and he plays hard.

  105. My fav show on tv is Prison Break.. it has nothing to do with this but I’m just chucking it out there like a Reitsma fastball..

    I wish pain upon Jeter…

  106. Dix, of course I knew that. What you don’t know is where they’re going with your wife.

  107. Ummm david, an intagible is not something you can see that’s what makes it intangible. That post defied logic.

  108. Latnam,

    I can’t speak for the rest of the room but I think both Stu & Mac will vouch for my long term hatred of one Mr. LaRoche.

    I can’t remember the last time I have seen back to back Fielder’s Choice!

  109. Huckleberry has intangibles????????? Like not paying attention because of his ADD?

  110. I’d rather watch the Simpsons, myself. But Jeter’s a good player, albeit overrated, and seems to be a nice guy.

  111. Reitsma wishes he was as successful as “Lost”. He’s more like Michelle Rodriguez was on that show…brought into a win-win situation, a good team, a chance to be a close, and well, blew it big time.

    By the way, love “Prison Break” as well. Returns August 21st!

    Oh, and I know that people like myself used “logic and reason” to defend their position on Francouer…please see above statistics. Thanks.

  112. The problem with intangibles is that there’s no evidence that they affect the game in any way not borne out by conventional statistics. They have no predictive value, and there’s little agreement on who has them and who doesn’t, as LatNam illustrates. I put very little faith in “intangibles.”

  113. Well, technically Furcal was the Michelle Rodriguez on the show (if you know what I mean…)

  114. I think the biggest problem I have with Jeter is the uniform he puts on everyday..

    I used to like A-Rod in the Seattle days..i liked Giambi in Oakland..always respected Sheff…same for Randy Johnson.
    But as soon as they put on that Yankee uni….ugh…

  115. not really, latnam, at least the way you’re using the word. because, really, if francoeur’s abilities are unable to be perceived by anybody it would be impossible to mount an argument based on them, true? i gave you the benefit of the doubt and assumed you were using the term as it should be and referring to aspects of the game that don’t show up on a stat sheet but can be observed in various ways by thinking people. because, really, how stupid would it be to argue a player is better, but the ways he’s better are impossible to be realized in any way by anybody?

    if you believe his contributions can’t be perceived, they might exist, might not, but you’re just making shit up when you refer to such “intangibles.”

  116. I put very little faith in stats being the be all end all of a players worth. So I guess we can agree to disagree.

  117. By the way, can we please give Mr. Ramirez some more run support against Jaret Freaking Wright? Arrrrggggg.

    I happy one of the 2 gentlemen in the current “argument” has provided an RBI tonight. We all know which one…

  118. David you continue to dazzle me with your logic defying posts.

    And it was my post not latnam.

  119. i’m not talking about stats, i’m talking about what i can see and backing them up with numerical evidence. you’re apparently speculating on things you recognize are impossible to know.

  120. Davey,

    FOX is rolling a lot of their stuff out early because of the October Baseball lag time.

    They are rolling out “Break” with a cool looking new show called, “Vanished”.

  121. From wordreference.com

    1 intangible, nonphysical
    lacking substance or reality; incapable of being touched or seen; “that intangible thing–the soul”

    2 intangible
    hard to pin down or identify; “an intangible feeling of impending disaster”

    I like the way they used it it definition 2. kind up sums up the braves season. Although our disaster is quite tangible

  122. how does that defy logic, lando? do you have superpowers which allow you to perceive things the rest of humanity can’t?

  123. It’s nice to hear the YES guys give HoRam his due after predicting a terrible outing all game.

  124. I’d like to take a moment to point out that HoRam has a shutout going vs the Yankees. Somethign we can all be happy about.

  125. Found it! Ahem, Here

    Now, I don’t know if I did the link right, but we’ll see. There’s where I go hating on LaRoche. Though eventually it turns into an intangibles argument where Stu and I were on opposite sides, but whatever.

    Oh, and the baby seal thing was totally made up. Though, I think someone should film him next time he does it. Heartless creep.

  126. Only four innings of arguing to go!

    David, Francoeur’s abilities are there in the statistics. So are all his failures people don’t remember (because even the best players fail most of the time). I remember Rafael Belliard’s home run, but that doesn’t make Belliard a power hitter.

  127. Rob,

    I have to say…considering some of the garbage I heard from those cruddy Marlins announcer a few weeks back, the Yankees TV and Radio teams actually do call a pretty fair game and are complimentary of the Braves. Yeah, they are homers too but I really can’t complain.

    The antithesis is the Marlins loser announcers and also that moron Milo Hamilton in Houston who is about 120 years old.

  128. Rob, they were ragging on him earlier about not being able to put two good games together. I think he heard them.

    Alex: LOL

  129. Hey Brian…maybe you’re on to something…if we keep arguing who’s less crappy (this feels like the 2004 Presidential election…doesn’t it?) it may help HoRam keep the shut out!

  130. Alex, the Diamondback announcers made the Marlins announcers look like saints.

  131. Not exactly. I had a pretty good idea who was crappier in 2004, namely the guy who was also crappier in 2000.

    Andruw, of course, is not crappy. He should stop acting as if he is.

  132. the D’Back crew stinks worse then the baby seal that Jeter wants to kill.

    DID Kill.

    And eat.

    He licked his fingers when he was done.

  133. brian, yes, i’m arguing the same thing. stats give us a way to go back and check to see if our impressions after the fact were correct. there are some things, however, that aren’t really able to be shown in the stat sheet. landogarner calls these “intangibles.” they’re not really intangible because i can see francoeur dive for a ball or laroche lollygag. technically, those things can be put into a stat, just not particularly effectively. basically, people say hustle is an intangible, but it’s not. we might not be able to measure hustle, but we can sure as hell see it.

    but i do believe these discussed unmeasurable aspects of the game are essentially meaningless in the outcome of games or seasons.

  134. Brian…I don’t disagree that he’s crappy, I just didn’t like the alternative either. I ‘abstained’. I think a lot of people simply held their noses in the voting booth.

    But alas…I am an independent voter. Iam rarely happy with the choices.

  135. david 15:
    You should go read my posts in that link I posted in #202. You ‘n me, we’re on the same page.

  136. I am an apathetic voter. I don’t like the choices, so I give up and don’t bother on the theory that I don’t make a difference.

    The pundit types hate me.

  137. Same here Alex. I don’t know how someone can let a party decide their vote for them. Doesn’t make any sense.

  138. LaRoche’s lollygaging style may piss us off, but except in extreme cases (like against Washington earlier this year), it does no real damage. We can see hustle, but that doesn’t mean that hustle actually wins games apart from the (statistically recorded) talent of the hustler.

  139. There was a huge protest rally in San Francisco two years back. They surveyed the crowd and only 15% were registered voters.

  140. For a real Jeter is not so great story, one of my wife’s best friends is a Doctor in Pediatrics in a NY Hospital and works (very sadly, don’t know how she does it) with Kids with Cancer.

    While Jeter has been to the hospital once or twice, he wouldn’t show up without his agent and ‘PR’ person and apparently still charged a fee to be there. When I heard that story, it really angered me.

    Now I am not saying Jeter is an out & out bad human being, I am just saying he’s a corporate, PR, Visa Card selling machine and he can’t even visit dying Cancer kids who probably adore him without double checking everything with his ‘people’.

  141. Why are all the articles on Gammons written like obituaries? It’s really a little irksome. The guy’s not dead yet, people.

  142. I vote all the time, even in local elections…I voted in 2000 for the guy who lost, but should have won. That said, 2004 sucked. It was depressing. It was like choosing between the Yankees and Red Sox.

    But, yes, back to Baseball.

  143. Now I am not saying Jeter is an out & out bad human being, I am just saying he’s a corporate, PR, Visa Card selling machine and he can’t even visit dying Cancer kids who probably adore him without double checking everything with his ‘people’.

    …who also eats baby seals.

    Raw! He doesn’t even bother to cook them. I guess that does make him a little hard-core, but ewwwwwwww!

  144. A brain anneurysm is not an easy thing to recover from, Jenny. Hopefully, they got to him in time and were successful in the surgery. The fact that it is being reported that it happened this morning, but the articles are not being posted until 7:10 pm EDT, do not bode well for Mr Gammons prognisis.

  145. Like many have said, he wasn’t always right but he loves the game. You gotta appreciate a guy like that.

  146. Horacio is our best picher right now. I can’t believe I just wrote that.

  147. Jeter story…when my wife’s friend started the story, I wanted to like Jetyer for showing up…then when she added how difficult he was (and he only stayed about 10-15 minutes each time), I just thought it was a depressing statement about many pro athletes who are too image conscience and cannot let their proverbial hair down to make a dying kid’s day.

    Again, I don’t think Jeter is a terrible guy, some won’t go at all, I just think he’s too corporate. Many Hollywood stars are this way too.

  148. Neither could I, Tennessee. Until you consider the alternatives.

    Re Gammons: To paraphrase Max Mercy from The Natural, he never played the game but he made it more fun to watch.


  149. thanks for the link latnam. this quote is exactly what i mean by the misuse of “intangible.”

    “When a ball is thrown in the dirt by Furcal, Chipper or anyone else, LaRoche is dramatically better than Julio at digging it out. Last time I checked, there’s no stat for firstbasemen digging balls out of the dirt. But that helps you win games.”

    this was my response to that post by ububba at the time:
    “even if laroche has a better picking ability, franco has a better everything else ability. unless you’re saying laroche makes everyone else feel better about themselves by lowering their error numbers. he’s like a shrink with a glove.”

    but anyway, those kinds of plays can be seen, thus they aren’t intangible.

    oh, and nice homer adam.

  150. well…ironically, each side of the argument tonight has 1 RBI.

    Maybe we should start a Chipper vs. Andruw Jones argument now so they will also hit home runs?

  151. Crap….here come’s the Frenchy v Laroche argument again. On the plus side…now we’re up two on THE HATED YANKEES! GO BRAVES!!! We need this one!

  152. oh….HoRam is at 75 pitches through 6. That’s really impressive work.

    G-d I hope we get this kid a win for his outstanding effort.

  153. Well, those plays would require studying the infielders’ statistics to determine whether they make more errors with LaRoche or Julio playing first base. (By the way, did you know Julio’s hitting .322 this season?)

    Intangibles cannot be measured, by definition. If they can be measured, they become statistics and hence tangible.

  154. If we’re argueing Chip vs Andruw tomorrow… I must take Andruw, since we hail from the same stupid island.

  155. Davey,

    You’re from the same place as ‘Druw? Cool.

    I think that maybe Adam’s first ever homer off a lefty but I maybe wrong. Still…if he needs us to argue about him to hit, I am game!

  156. Hmm, I cant decide between going out with Brook Burke or Adriana Lima….anyone care to start the debate ;)

  157. Right now, Andruw, although neither of them is playing much like himself or the expectations that we all have of them.

  158. Andruw’s been missing some hittable pitches as of late. Meanwhile, Chipper is still good for a single.

  159. Rob, I’m with you on Chip. I’ll wear my ‘Jones #10’ jersey tomorrow.

  160. Yes Alex..i live in Curacao, been living here all my life

    Andruw’s house, or better said, his parent’s house down here, is about a 3 minute drive from my dad’s house.

  161. brian, i’m on the same page with you, i’m just taking it a step farther. the ability to be measured isn’t the right standard in determining whether something is intangible. it is a standard, but the more important one to me is the standard of realization or perception. beyond not being able to be measured, something intangible cannot be perceived or realized. by definition, those who argue on the basis of intangibles can’t perceive the meaning of their own arguments. it’s just people making stuff up.

  162. It’s not that intangibles can’t affect tangibles, but that usually takes a pretty extreme case. There’ve been teams that have won the World Series with great intangibles (1979 Pirates, 2005 White Sox) and with awful intangibles (1978 Yankees, 1997 Marlins).

  163. Adam had one HR in 04, and another in 05 against lefties. And this one tonight. I guess that’s his quota.

  164. And Chipper not going for the out at third costs us a run. Awesome.

    The player we need to be trading is Chipper.

  165. He did have a double against a lefty the other day. Maybe he’s coming around against lefties.

  166. Don’t take it personally, Lando. The Gods of Baseball evidently wanted us to argue tonight.

    And Frankie coudln’t find Denmark on a map.

  167. I don’t take anything personally from strangers on the internet. So no worries.

  168. Francouer would beat Laroche at arm wrestling. And hide and go seek. AND musical chairs. That’s why he’s called an all around player, boys (and jenny).

  169. I thought that was Latham that was the doodyhead

    Latham’s my cousin. He’s a real pig.

  170. Damn, tggr, I don’t even need to say tiddlywinks. Adam concedes every match.

  171. LaRoche doesn’t go hunting. The word hunting implies the possibility of failure. LaRoche goes killing.

  172. What college? Frenchy never went to college! And his name is foreign-sounding. Fran-KOOR? That’s just weird.

  173. LaRoche doesn’t have the concentration to win in anything vs Frenchy. His ADD gets in the way, but it’s not an excuse!

  174. Adam is his own decoy in hunting. He sleeps until something crawls near him and eventually dies of boredom.

  175. Kind of funny, the three guys that get the most grief on this site, HoRam, Frenchy, and LaRoche, are the reasons we are winning

  176. Frenchy might win, except he misses the ball half the time when he swings his mallet. LaRoche never tries to hit the ball through too many wickets at once.

  177. When do we get to face Alay Soler? This guy has no velocity on his pitches at all. Red Sox are hitting everything hard and Alex Gonzalez, of all people, just hit an absolute 460-foot blast totally out of Fenway, right after Mike Lowell nearly did the same thing except for a billboard got in the way. I want to see him throw a fastball to Andruw or Frenchy. It goes like 84mph. Hilarious.

  178. Yes, Smitty, it is. Gregg Pearlman, a Giants fan a few years back, coined the phrase “Earnest Ragging” to cover this phenomenon, when fans complain about a player and he promptly delivers. But it can’t be faked. You have to really be complaining about the players involved for the effect to work.

  179. Not only did I get it… I applauded you for the effort..

    Ah by the way LatNam.. I used to submit facts to that site, and a couple were put up on there.

  180. Getting out of last place is the first step towards getting to first place… a long journey, for sure…..

  181. I have to be reminded we’re in last place, that’s all. It always depresses me.

  182. Mets, Marlins, and Nationals losing, Phillies rained out. This division isn’t doing much for NL pride, is it?

  183. Which facts did you submit, Davey?

    By the way, LaRoche’s tears can cure cancer and AIDs. Too bad he doesn’t cry.

  184. YAY! another RBI for Frenchy! And for the Braves! an insurance run in the 8th inning!

  185. “Singles on a popup,” according to MLB GameDay. What does that mean? (I don’t have Turner South.)

  186. Since I adpopted Frenchy, he has been awesome!

    I love that Mike Myers comes out to the Halloween music

  187. Insurance runs: something that’s been missing lately (though its hard to get insurance runs with no lead.)

  188. Well Rob.. 3 of my facts were put on but I only remember 1
    “Bullets dodge Chuck Norris”

    I should’ve written them down cuz the other 2 were wayy funnier

  189. He dropped a bloop single into short right center that was picked up by the second baseman.

  190. it means he hit a bloop single into right but the second baseman was the first to field it.

  191. It was just beyond the second baseman’s glove. It was more of a popup than anything. Well, a “flare”, I guess.

    LaRoche versus Myers? This could be a hoot.

  192. The ball dropped in behind the second baseman and in front of the right fielder. At least that’s how it sounded on radio.

  193. Haha Davey. I laughed for a good 24 hours straight when I saw that for the first time. It’s still funny thinking about some of them.

  194. Yeah that’s right. That settles the Frenchy vs Huckleberry argument.

    Frenchy wins.

  195. Rob, did you see that clip of Chuck Norris on the Best Damn Sports Show..reading some of those facts?

  196. Frenchy wins at the plate today..plus in the field.

    Ahwell, I guess you stat heads can argue about sample size..but I don’t care. We’re leading 3-1… we’re actually leading!

  197. It’s on the internet somewhere..and on my hard drive..

    I downloaded that sucker quicker than a Chris Reitsma blown save..

  198. Don’t you dare leave him out there for the 9th, Bobby… he’ll blow it for sure!

  199. How many pitches for Horam?

    Does Bobby stay Horam or go Sosa in the 9th.

    I honestly think I would STAY Horam.

    We desperately need to ensure a win right now against a good team in their stadium. Morale booster….big time.

  200. ryan c,

    Get this! According to Joe Simpson, Horacio struck out A-Rod with a cut fastball, the pitch that got Horacio into so much trouble last year. The kid’s got guts. Good job, Horacio!

  201. Make that “ace,” Brian. Hudson is the ace who’s underperforming. Smoltz goes a lot of innings for a guy who promised to take it easy this year.

  202. HoRam is already picthing on borrowed time. Although, with Bernie, Phillips and Melky coming up…anything is possible.

  203. Yes…Rob…once again you make a correct point. Right now, Horacio is the best current starter on this team. Smoltz and Hudson have not bee as good their last few starts or even for the year.

  204. remy, i didnt even know he could hit 90, much less 95. can that really be accurate?

  205. I didn’t know he had it in him either, but the guys on the radio say he seems to have gotten stronger over the last two innings. But that much stronger?

  206. If HoRam holds things together in the 9th, how many CG’s would that be on the season for the Braves?
    3? 4? I know Smoltz and Hudson……anyone else?

  207. Yankee defense, playing like our defense!

    And yes…it would be sweet to embarrass Kyle and get some runs of his a–.

  208. My guess is that Bobby will give Horacio a chance to win the game. If Horacio allows a walk or a hit, then Sosa comes in. Short hook.

  209. I think it’d be the 4th CG.. I’m too lazy to go and check to tell you the truth

    The YES guys were also saying that Horam threw his best fastball to A-Rod in that last at-bat..so they also noticed that he got stronger in the late innings.

  210. Thats what I get for trying to type and eat an ice cream cone at the same time.
    Multi-tasking is overrated.

  211. usually velocity spikes up just before going down severely once fatigue sets in fully. not sure “95” is a good sign.

  212. We have 5 CGs so far- two each from Hudson and Smoltz, and one from Davies.


  213. I normally think Al Leiter is a very good commentator (forced to watch the YES broadcast on MLB channel), but his lashing out against Schuerholz’s comments on Farnsworth is stupid.

    JS actually made a good point when discussing Farnsworth’s problems in NY that it maybe that he can’t handle the NY spotlight and Atlanta may have been a better situation.

    Leiter dismissed that, insulted JS and said “oh, that’s ridiculous, he just needs to make pitches” uh yeah, AL…because Kenny Rogers asnd others have NEVER shown that maybe being a Yankee isn’t the right cup o’ tea for everyone.

    I am no JS fan these days but only Michael Kay defended JS. Leiter and whomever the other Yankee commentator is dismissed what JS said.

    And great RBI by Betemit.

  214. (I know that last comment was late, I was actually watching the Chuck Norris thing while the inning was going on behind me.)

  215. Thanks Brian, I was about to look that up myself. My procrastinating once again pays off.

  216. sosa should most definitely come in now. let him build some confidence in his new role.

  217. LatMan.. you have referred to my two most favorite things ..

    Random Chuck Norris facts..and someone “being with leather”. :D

  218. No Wilson vs. Marcus debate. We’ll have to schedule one of those…

    Farnworth had four bad seasons out of six in Chicago. He’s just not that good on a sustained basis. His temper also strikes me as something that doesn’t mix well with New York.

  219. ryan c,

    with this KEY extra run, yes…let Jorge come in Yankee stadium and try and build his confidence. works now for me.

  220. alex, i hated js’s comments simply because he made up an excuse for mark davis instead of taking responsibility for an awful signing. he should have learned a completely different lesson from that debacle from the one he apparently did, that k.c. is tough to play in.

  221. The look on Farnsworth’s face while he was watching Posada’s hand signals reminded me of LaRoche…very. slow. thinker.

  222. Now Posada’s all over Farnsworth.

    So far, the fried plantains have been working. Sosa’s ready.

  223. anyone else see this? farnsworth is either the biggest jerk or the dumbest person alive. he looks like a grouper.

  224. What the hell is going on here??? Everything is going right for us and everything is going wrong for them. Bizzarro day at the park?

  225. Get rid of the prima donna pitcher. Farnsworth turned his back on Posada…then Posada returned to the plate. That makes Farnsworth the a**…not Posada.

  226. Zalright. We can’t all be good at math. Just kidding… GameDay takes care of that for me.

  227. An intentional walk to get to a guy hitting .352. Is it just me, or is that world-class stupid of the Yankees?

  228. Even Cox wouldn’t do something so foolish, though in the Yankees defense, McCann isn’t as successful against lefties.

  229. Farnsworth is a jerk, but he still has the best open field tackle in baseball….remember that one on FOX Saturday baseball when he was a Cub? Classic!

  230. Does anyone know where I can get a video clip of Farnsworth’s tackle? It was pretty sweet.

  231. I remember Joe Buck saying that the Bears LB’s could learn something from Farnsworth….back before Lovie Smith became coach.

  232. No, they DFAed him when he came in in the 10th inning against the O’s last year and threw the first pitch as an 88mph fastball right down the middle that Brian Roberts deposited into the LF stands. His next outing (with the Nats), he balked in the winning run before throwing a pitch.

    I think he’s still in Washington?

  233. Stanton’s with the Nats. 1-5, ERA of 5.28. Yes, there are bad pitchers in other bullpens.

  234. Francouer has a better chance of getting a big hit swinging than Laroche does sleeping. I’m done too.

  235. yeah, francoeur played punching judy pretty well tonight. those two rbis were brilliant displays of talent.

  236. Alex – it was CLASSIC. Most pitchers just wait for the charging batter to reach the mound. Farnsworth ran at the batter, lowered his shoulder into the batters midsection, picked him up by his legs, and pile drived him into foul territory behind the third baseline. Perfect tackling form – very effective.

  237. Yeah, Frenchies game speaks for itself tonight. No need to even bother comparing at this point.

  238. It(Kyle’s tackle) was 3 years ago, I think………………………..and that is not the way to get Jorges confidence up as a closer.

  239. good decision to go with sosa in this situation no matter the save. i feel all cozy inside seeing him come in to close. and as i type this the cozy feeling quickly leaves me. thanks milky

  240. Hey, LaRoche wasn’t bad tonight either. In fact, everyone in the starting lineup had a hit but Langerhans.

    A beautiful game, for once.

  241. Well – good recovery striking out the next batter. Hopefully more good karma coming our way tomorrow.

  242. ok, I will take a huge win for the Braves…huge…let’s not underestimate the importance of this win…but still…closer problems.

  243. tggr,

    I actually remember that now from the FOX game of the week…yeah…that was some good stuff. Hate the guy but I do remember that being pretty cool.

    Again, great win Braves…a Smoltzie and possible road series win tomorrow in NY would be out of sight.

  244. We can actually win two series in a row tommorow! When was the lst time we could say that?

  245. Rob – that ain’t it…..the one I was talking about was when Kyle was a Cub and it was on Saturday… but that is the same form for the tackle that he used!

  246. I just found this on YouTube. It’s a blooper of the Francoeur Delta commercial where Jeff swings and misses.

  247. Rissa,

    I agree w/ you. But a 1-2-3 9th would be good. Still…Judy Reitsma wass worse. I think there’s some hope for Sosa whereas no hope for Reitsma.

  248. The tackle was against the Reds, if I’m not mistaken. I remember not really knowing who Farnsworth was at the time, and that’s one of the things that I think of when I think of him, that and Brad freaking Ausmus.

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