280 thoughts on “These guys again game thread: Aug. 17, Nats at Braves”

  1. From prior thread:

    I’m glad Bobby’s going with Prado at 3rd. I think that also tells you what the FO plans are. I don’t think you would move Prado off of 2nd where he’s been all year, if you are actively pursuing a 3rd baseman. I could be wrong of course.

    Also, is it wrong of me to hope the Phils are bringing back Utley too quickly?

  2. i’m not qualified for this, but i know some of you are. i’d like to see someone put together an “all gimpy” team. the starting pitchers would have to be mark prior and mike hampton.

  3. Bethany from the last thread…..

    I love it when you get someone from ESPN reporting that the Braves havent made any contacts with the Cubs about Ramirez, but you have Bowman quoting Wren saying that they did

  4. @4 I know! It’s quite odd. Is it just people talking to “sources” who are making stuff up, or are ignorant and giving out guesses, which the journalist or blogger than takes as fact?

  5. perfect DL team…

    SP- Kerry Wood
    SP- Mark Prior
    SP- Mike Hampton
    SP- Carl Pavano
    SP- Rich Harden
    honorable mentions – Ben Sheets and Brandon Wood

    C- Varitek
    1B- Delgado
    2B- Barmes
    3B- Chipper
    SS- Rollins
    LF- Baldelli
    CF- Sizemore
    RF- Griffey

  6. Aren’t the Phils really tight on money this year? I realize that people close to the Braves seemed convinced that a Manny deal won’t happen, but could the Phillies even block the move, since they have no money wiggle room?

  7. Hoover promoted to Mississippi

    Edit: Nats lineup for Tuesday: Gonzalez-2B, Desmond-SS, Zimmerman-3b, Dunn-1B, Pudge-C, Morse-RF, Mench-LF, Maxwell-CF, Olsen-P

  8. #8 – they did say that before adding Oswalt, so I would expect them to block it with no intentions on trading for Manny

  9. they did say that before adding Oswalt, so I would expect them to block it with no intentions on trading for Manny

    But if you block a move, the other team can give you the player, and you MUST take and pay them. That’s why some players clear. I could certainly see LA doing just that, they are going nowhere, 6M would pay for something useful next year, and they certainly won’t offer arb.

  10. against a lefty, i’d seriously consider batting heyward 8th in that lineup, moving everyone else up one. he has a .671 ops against them.

  11. tonight will be a big test for minor because the nationals lineup that is out there tonight rakes against lhp.

  12. I don’t see us making a move until we see if Inge clears waivers. I don’t see that happening.

  13. @20 – good. I like a relatively fair fight. Although, both the Phils and Braves have terrific records even with their depleted teams – I think the Phils are 18-5 or something over the last 3 weeks. I can’t imagine them playing even better than that over the last 45.

  14. Finally I get to see the Braves on TV again, I guess I will have to mute Carpenter and Dibble. The Orioles have really good announcers, while the Nats announcers sucks. I guess since the Orioles own MASN, that’s the way it is.

    – Eric Chavez. What ever happened to him?

    – Minor watch out for Zimmerman, somehow he has 24 HR.

    – So happy to have Prado back. Did I see AAG head first slide into 3rd base last night on the highlights?

  15. I’m in the mood for a series sweep. The last one came against the Royals 2 months ago, and it’s time for another. It would be nice if the Giants get it together and take 2/3 from the Phillies while we’re at it.

  16. @21 Relatively fair? Have you seen their payroll? I don’t think a pennant race against any team that can buy a pitcher like Oswalt midseason is going to be fair.

  17. Boy, if you’d told me Ross was starting for McCann, I’d have nailed the lineup. I know me some Bobby.

  18. I like today’s lineup a lot. Both in terms of construction and in terms of scoring runs. Let’s see if Minor can keep us in the game.

  19. “Did I see AAG head first slide into 3rd base last night on the highlights?”

    I think that would have been Infante on his triple.

  20. Off topic, but maybe someone (with a B-Ref subscription?) can help me here.

    Suppose there’s a runner on third, two out. The batter strikes out but the ball gets past the catcher. If the runner from third scores before the batter is thrown out at first, does the run count?

  21. Mac —

    Why, because it’s a force play? I guess. Then it no longer makes any sense to me why, in a bases-loaded situation, if the batter reaches on a K/WP he doesn’t get an RBI. Seems like he should get one for hustle.

  22. Why, because it’s a force play? I guess

    It would be the same as if the batter grounded out with a runner on 3rd and 2 outs.

  23. AAR –

    I think you may have misunderstood my #33 post. If he *does* reach in a bases-loaded situation with two out on a K/WP, he *doesn’t* get an RBI. This is bizarre to me. I thought it might be explainable if the run would have counted had he not reached, but now I’m just confused.

  24. Alex, I did understand you, but I think I didn’t express myself well. A hitter is not credited with an RBI when he reaches on an error and a run scores as a result — and I am assuming that a strikeout/wild pitch/reach first base situation in which a runner on third managed to score would be handled similarly, with the batter given no credit for an RBI because he reached on defensive ineptitude. (Obviously, in both cases, hustle has something to do with the batter reaching — you can’t reach on an error or a strikeout/wild pitch without running down the line — but mostly it’s the defense failing to make a routine play.)

    Similar reasoning governs why hitters don’t get an RBI when a run scores on a double play.

  25. Meh. That situation would add what.. one maybe two RBIs to a player’s career totals?

  26. #39 — Yeah, by my count, this has happened roughly 20 times since 1950. But I think it’s an interesting question …

    #38 — You *can* get an RBI on an error … a deep fly ball that would have been a sac fly but is dropped, for example … but that’s a different situation from this one, obviously.

  27. So no discussion on the Clint Barmes rumor?

    I haven’t even kept up with what he’s been doing offensively lately.

    Lots of cock blocking going on, I hear.

  28. Yeah, what we need is a utility infielder with a .301 career OBP playing his home games in Coors Field and a history of injuries and a top career comp of Kurt Abbott. Like we need another regular with a torn ligament. He’s better than Diory and Hicks, but not so much better that you’d give anything up for him, or pay him about a million bucks to finish the season. (Much less offer him arbitation.)

  29. Why would any Major League Baseball team willingly add Clint Barmes?

    There’s your discussion.

  30. BOLD PREDICTION: Manny Ramirez will not be a Dodger two weeks from now.

    LESS BOLD PREDICTION: Manny Ramirez will also not be a Brave two weeks from now.

  31. Think about what it would take for us to get Manny. It would mean that we would be willing to take on more of his salary than any other team in baseball. Heck, I’m not even 100% positive he’ll clear waivers.

  32. If Jim Bowden were still in charge of a team, he’d do his damnedest to get Barmes. That guy just LOVED crappy middle infielders. Witness the inaugural 2005 Washington Nationals, the only team courageous enough to employ not just Jose Vidro and Cristian Guzman as its past-its-prime keystone combination, but had a bench of Jamey Carroll, Carlos Baerga, Junior Spivey, and Deivi Cruz. Barmes woulda fit like a glove.

    To be honest, Clint actually had a pretty nice year in 2008, forced to become the starting shortstop for two months while Troy Tulowitzki was out. He’s a decent enough 2B/SS off the bench. But he is, essentially, a worse version of Omar Infante. He could be useful for someone, and has been very useful to the Rockies in the past, but he is simply of no use to us.

  33. Also, Tim Dierkes at MLB Trade Rumors has a nice rundown of all the head-scratching multiyear deals the Phillies have handed out lately: Ryan Howard, Jamie Moyer, Cole Hamels, Placido Polanco, Joe Blanton, Danys Baez, Brian Schneider, Ross Gload, and Greg Dobbs. (And he doesn’t even mention Ibanez!)

    They have a hell of a lot of talent, but Amaro’s been pre-committing an awful lot of money.

  34. “Hoover promoted to Mississippi.”

    What a funny year on the Braves farm. Lots of pitchers have been (justifiably) moved up pretty quickly (Minor from MS; to Gwinnett; to MLB); Delgado and Teheran, whom I think both started at Rome and are now past Myrtle Beach and are in MS.

    Yet we have 2 former super-prospects who have been demoted; C. Johnson is back in Myrtle Beach, after being promoted to MS last year and failing there, this year; and Schaefer, who has been moved down from Gwinnett to Mississippi, where he still cannot hit (sub .200).

  35. 44- Because there are still general managers out there who don’t quite “get” park effects.

    30s- Keep in mind the distinction between runs and RBI. If runners cross home plate and there’s a force play *anywhere*, no runs count. You can have runs without RBI, but RBI are a judgment call because those runs have to be “earned” by the offensive team. Fortunately, there’ve been enough examples that, in most cases, the RBI call is cut and dried.

    (My own personal opinion is that by this logic, a runner who steals home should get an RBI for “driving” himself in. But MLB disagrees.)

  36. The braves wouldn’t have to pay manny a ton considering the insurance return they’ll get for chipper.

  37. The Phillies commitments for next year have been discussed a lot. In short, I seriously doubt they are in any position to make any waiver claims. Cheap players won’t fall to them, and expensive ones are too risky.

  38. A walk with bases loaded is a RBI without ball hitting ball. A run scoring on a WP/PB is independent of whether batter gets to first base
    on strike 3

  39. 54- Right. If there are two out and the batter-runner’s thrown out before reaching first (or if he misses first), no runs score.

  40. Or even if he’s tagged before touching first. Holla.

    4.09 (a)

    One run shall be scored each time a runner legally advances to and touches first,
    second, third and home base before three men are put out to end the inning.
    EXCEPTION: A run is not scored if the runner advances to home base during a
    play in which the third out is made (1) by the batter-runner before he touches first
    base; (2) by any runner being forced out; or (3) by a preceding runner who is
    declared out because he failed to touch one of the bases.

  41. #54 – right, 53 is true only with less than two out. Whatever it’s worth, in your scenario, with the bases loaded and two out, the force is in effect at all bases. So, for example, the catcher could simply step on home, or throw to the pitcher covering home, if it were an easier play than going to first.

  42. So, this is the last I’ll say about this. I promise. Then we can get to talking about the boring Nats.

    Look at this play where Andre Ethier “drives in” a run on a K+WP with the bases loaded and two out. He swung at a pitch that hit him! In other words, if he doesn’t swing, the end result of the play is exactly the same, only he gets an RBI. For not swinging.

  43. my dream playoff lineup against rhp:

    melky…yeah, i said it.

  44. I’m glad the umpires conferred on that.

    I sent you my South Carolina preview via e-mail, Mac.

  45. 1B Ump: “You totally blew that call. He was two feet away from that ball.”
    Plate Ump: “We’re not here to talk about the past. Did he drop the ball, or did it fall when he was taking it out of the glove?”
    3B Ump: “Whatever. Let’s just say he caught it … FOR JUSTICE.”
    2B Ump: “FOR JUSTICE”
    All Umps: “FOR JUSTICE”
    Plate Ump: [clinches fist and makes taffy motion with his hands … for justice]

  46. I didn’t know that existed. I knew there existed suspension without pay, but the disqualified list is news to me.

  47. With two on, two out in the first, Pudge swung at the 3-2 pitch and tipped it into Ross’ glove. But Ross dropped the ball taking it out of his glove and the home plate ump called it a foul ball instead of a K.

    The umps huddled and changed the call to a strike out. Pudge was subsequently ejected.

  48. The “disqualified list” is mentioned in the CBA, and there are some rules about it. The only reason specifically mentioned for putting someone on it is “failure to render his services to his club.” However, there is a mention of “any Player who is on a Disqualified List for a reason other than that stated in paragraph 1 above,” which is properly vague.

    Some baseball person should send a copy of The Official Professional Baseball Rules Book to Wikileaks.

  49. Somethings that wouldn’t annoy me if it were coming from anyone other than Chip: his use of the word “club” to refer to a team. “This Braves club is…” “This Washington ballclub has been…” “These Phillies have been one of the hottest clubs…” Etc. It grates on my nerves so much, and there’s no reason it should.

  50. @75
    i sympathize with you stu. when chip says “the” it gets on my nerves… and any other word that begins with a letter from the alphabet.

  51. Ankiel would not have gotten that ball. He’d be looking over his shoulder as it went over his head.

  52. These average lefty starters are killing the team. It would be great to have an all-time great right handed power bat. If only one could become available in a week or so.

    Fortunately, we have at least one right handed all-star in the lineup keep the no-hitter at bay.

  53. Billy Shanks says McLouth was pulled and is heading to ATL. Maybe they’ve arranged for Heyward to clothesline him again.

  54. I’ve just realized something really nice about Heyward batting 2nd. Bobby doesn’t get to fall prey to the temptation of bunting the #2 hitter to get the guy into scoring position.

  55. @84, O’Brien: 1st pitcher winless in 5 consec. starts w/ at least 6 inn, 1 or 0 earned runs, night games without a full moon, on days that end in “day”, games over 30 min, less than 400 min, in prime number days of the month since earned runs were official stat in 1913

  56. @59 – They blew that call. By rule, when a player swings and misses at a ball that hits him, the ball is dead and no runners may advance. If it’s the third strike, the batter is out. Those umpires either didn’t see the ball hit Ethier or they don’t know the rules very well.

  57. Hinske might not be able to get the bat on anything thrown by a lefty even if we’re using beach balls, but I’d rather have him at first than the statue right now.

  58. Chip and Joe are blabbering on and on about Tommy Hanson’s lack of a win in his last few fantastic starts. Are we still on this? Who still gives a damn about pitcher W-L records?

  59. The baseball gods hate us.

    This offense is even worse than I could have imagined. It’s because they aren’t being patient.

  60. Minor should have learned by now that to win for the Braves against an opposing LHP, YOU HAVE TO BE PERFECT.

    He clearly does not know how to win. We shouldn’t have let him near Hanson so early in his career.

  61. Poor Minor. Welcome to the 2010 Braves! I’d feel better if we’d made Olsen work harder.

  62. Frank Wren is responsible for leaving this team so susceptible to LHP. Everyone on the face of the earth knew we needed a RH bat so he went and got Rick Ankiel.

  63. Nats commentators were ragging on Diory during the at bat; all this talk about how he has no power.


  64. Frank Wren sucks for calling up Hernandez. If Infante was real all star, he would have hit a home run!

  65. @137, It’s a borderline pitch at a 3-1 count in the 6th inning. I’m glad he has the eye and the patience to lay off.

  66. He doesn’t talk about it as much when we aren’t completely unable to do it.

    Oh, look, a balk.

  67. 144—I dunno. Considering who his partner is, I kinda wish he’d never stop talking.

    Welcome back, Martin!

  68. @174, he is the huge but idiot helper in Plan 9 From Outer Space

    gah – Manos….I had blotted it from my memory.

  69. Does SportSouth really need to still keep us up-to-date with how the Mets game is going during their “NL East scoreboard” updates?

  70. Chip is so stupid.

    “And Omar [Infante] is going to have at least three!”

    -Chip Caray on Infante triple.

  71. “You see what I did there Tommy? Sometimes you have to give up a few to get the offense going. Now I’m getting a win.”

  72. Is it safe to say that they just forgot about the trivia question? That was like an hour ago.

  73. ok. chip caray reads this blog. he just said how the blogosphere called this team “resilient”. Good job mac!

  74. Does Chip read Braves Journal?

    He just said “I know the blogosphere was chattering last night about the resiliency of the team…”

    …if so…


  75. Chip Caray just called the Braves “resilient.” That adjective for this team is now dead to me.

  76. Just think back to the days Stu. Rathburn and Torebore were terrible. Much worse than this clown

  77. Rathbun and Torborg were significantly worse. They forced me away from the TV on a nightly basis.

  78. LOL 204

    Chip if you read this, please take it down about five notches. You make the most routine groundball sound like 1) Katy Perry is the SS, 2) She’s buck-naked, 3) She’s holding up a sign that says “I’m Katy Perry, naked SS extraordinaire!”

    that is all

  79. Actually Ken Harrelson is worse than Chip Caray. in fact, he may be the worst broadcaster alive. With that said, Chip is in the discussion.

    As for Saito, I think he’s on the once per week frequency now. He always looks to me like he’s about to pass out when he’s getting his signs.

  80. Rathbun and Torborg were significantly worse. They forced me away from the TV on a nightly basis.

    Of that duo, only Torborg annoyed me.

    But I’d still take Torborg and his tedious stories of when he was a player over Caray.

  81. As bad as Chip is, and he is bad, you guys should be thankful you’re not blacked out of the home broadcast and don’t have to listen to Bob Carpenter and Rob Dibble. These two actually make watching baseball less fun. Chip’s annoying, but he never ruins the game for me.

  82. I thought Chip was ok with the Cubs. Maybe I let that cloud my judgment here, but Bob Rathburn makes me nauseous

  83. 208 & 209—It’s not a matter of opinion. Factually, Chip Caray is the worst broadcaster of all time. Look it up.

  84. He was a high school quarterback!

    Chip reminds me of Michael Scott. There are a lot of reasons to hate him, but he’s a good person somewhere down there. And that makes it hard to truly despise him.

  85. My favorite Chipism from a few weeks back:

    “Trouble is literally brewing here in the top of the 5th.”

  86. 231
    don’t think so

    but definitely my most hated Chip-ism is when a batter “sprays that one to the right side for a foul ball”

  87. I can understand why it must be really nice to have Omar on the bench as a super-utility guy, but after watching him and Prado together tonight, I can’t imagine they need a third baseman. Both those guys need to be in the lineup every day, might as well leave them where they are in the field too.

  88. rehab

    Wait and see if we make it far in the playoffs. McCarver will make you throw things at the TV.

    “Derek Lowe has been a solid pitcher for the Braves all season. He throws sinkers. A sinker is a pitch that sinks on it’s way to the plate.”

    You’ll long for the days of “Fisted!”

  89. Speaking of a tough listen…I heard the Braves pregame show tonight while stuck in traffic. It’s basically an hour and a half of Buck Belue reciting (droning) ERA’s and injury reports, with Leo Mazzone and Mark Lemke chiming in with “expert” analysis (not really saying anything at all). Also, Lemke seems like a nice guy but has the worst radio voice ever.

  90. “Tag of the dish” is a good one. One of Chip’s more goofy verbal tics is when he says something where all the individual words make sense but no human being would actually say.

  91. For Chip Caray, the thing that gets me hitting the mute button the fastest is when he loudly yells, on a double or triple, something like:

    “And look at [insert playing here] streaking around second.”

  92. @250, That’s the one that might be available. There’s another one without that could be had tomorrow.

  93. so, glaus hits an extra base hit every 3 games and everything’s cool.

    aag has a bad habit of swinging at balls.

    and is melky cabrera becoming likable?

  94. I know the general rule is career broadcast guys do play-by-play and former players do color commentary. But it seems like their must be some former players who could do decent play-by-play, since the Atlanta stations seem incapable of finding career broadcast guys who understand baseball.

  95. AAG threw an F-bomb after striking out. That seems to be the popular word among our players.

  96. 260- Oddly, it’s also common when describing them.

    9-3 Phillies. Thanks a heap, San Fran. Let us know when you decide to play baseball again.

  97. Torgo’s expression standing on second just killed me. He almost looked disappointed to have prolonged his agony by hitting the double.

  98. @258

    Sciambi was a career broadcaster and he was perfect, imo. I was really upset when I found out he was going to ESPN.

    And, not that I’m defending Chip, but anybody who says that he is the worst has never heard Harellson and his “HE GONE!!!” or “PUT IT ON THE BOOOOOOOOAAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRD!!!!”

    It is, literally, nauseating to hear him call a game.

  99. From the farm–5 errors by Gwinnett tonight. EOF had two good innings; KK allowed a walk and two hits (one a homer) in 4 IP. For Rome, RSF was 0-4 with 4 K and Salcedo was 0-4 with 3 K.

  100. I’ve heard plenty of Harrelson. He’s got nothing on Chip. He’s annoying, but he understands some things about the game. Chip, as I’ve said before, has an annoying voice and annoying mannerisms, and he doesn’t understand any of what’s going on on the field. He’s the absolute worst.

  101. As @53 above I just want to mention that on a dropped third stike that if the batter is thrown out for the third out at first there is no PB or WP

  102. I hate this team. We have no offense and inconsistent starting pitching. And Mike Minor is just another overhyped lefty prospect — Terrell Wade, Bruce Chen, Damian Moss, Odalis Perez… our farm system is OVERRATED and Frank Wren is a freaking MORON.

  103. going back to last years draft and looking at what Minor has done, who would we have been better off taking at that pick? Its pretty amazing what Minor has done and Im glad he wasnt moved around the deadline. He seems to be able to handle this situation. He’s confident and I like it

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