Los Angeles Dodgers vs. Atlanta Braves – Box Score – August 16, 2010 – ESPN.
There’s that resilience for you. After another catastrophe inning (the eighth) looked to win the game for the Dodgers, the Braves got off the mat in the ninth and won the game.
Tommy Hanson, of course, did not get a win. He continues to pitch extremely well and to get no-decisions out of it. Better than a loss, I guess. He allowed a run in the first on an infield single followed by a double into the gap by Andre Ethier. After that, he shut the Dodgers down, but the Braves couldn’t do anything. They left two on in the second, and Troy Glaus grounded into a double play to end the fourth. Finally, in the sixth Infante led off the inning with a triple, and Heyward followed with a sacrifice fly to tie the game.
Jonny Venters started the eighth inning, and it looked like Brooks Conrad would be a folk goat. Venters should have gotten the first man, but Conrad couldn’t make a play (charged an error, then changed to a hit) and after a walk Conrad committed what was definitely an error, a throwing error allowing two runs to score. Melky saved the day by throwing out a runner at home on a fly ball, but it was still 3-1.
Joe Torre tried to get a two-inning save out of Hong-Chih Kuo. The eighth inning was no problem. The ninth, that was a problem. Alex Gonzalez singled. McCann did as well, and was run for by Hicks. Both moved up on a wild pitch, but Glaus fouled out. Conrad walked, and that chased Kuo. David Ross pinch-hit and drew a walk off of Octavio Dotel, scoring AAG. And Melky came up and singled, and the game was over.
good recap….I saw the highlights and Ethier made a hell of a play. Heyward almost hit it out. We need him to start SLG again
Glad that we saved that $2m on Alvord and Sabol so that we can keep open the possibility of bringing in Clint Barmes!
Because people obviously didn’t see it on the last thread. The rumor about the Braves having a deal in place with Alvord then nixing it to save money is not accurate at all.
Much ado about nothing.
Seriously, guys, question your sources here. This is a blog report based on what someone in the Alvord camp said. Two things:
1) If it’s coming from the Alvord camp (which is where the blog post referred to it as coming from), then there’s a fair chance it’s someone over being pissed/disappointed/covering their own ass when they didn’t get the money they were holding out for. So question the source.
2) HOW WOULD THEY KNOW what the Braves were going to do with the money? Does it even make sense for the Braves to try to get Ramirez and his two-year contract? Does the money even line up correctly? Alvord wasn’t exactly going to get $4 million, and that’s the range for Ramirez’s contract, I believe.
I’ll say this. I think it would be a bad plan to take money out of the draft in order to go after an over-priced veteran. But take a breath and ask yourself who is actually telling you that that happened.
Martin Gandy actually posted a response to Keith Law on the truth of the rumor. Peanut reports that the Braves were interested in Aramis Ramirez, but he wasn’t prepared to restructure his contract to help the dollars work out. So, concludes Gandy, part of the rumor was true — the Braves were interested in Ramirez — which means that the rest of the rumor, the part about the Braves routing Alvord and Sabol’s bonus money to Ramirez, may have also been true. (EDIT: What Mraver said.)
Anyway, whatever. I’m not happy they didn’t sign them, but it’s over. I agree that money issues are pretty much something to blame ownership for. Also, I strongly disagree with Chris’s rant against Wren last thread, not least because of this: ” Wren’s time as the GM of Baltimore was riddled with bad FA signings (Belle) that handcuffed the organization and Drafts that were FAR less than stellar (Jay Gibbons was his lone star of note).”
Frank Wren was the GM of the Orioles for exactly one year, during which he was employed by a man widely regarded as the worst owner in baseball, so talking about “free agent signings” and “drafts” in the plural is more than faintly ludicrous.
The Braves are 20 games over .500. Amazing! In first place in mid-August. With only one regular (McCann)who would start for the Phillies. Instead of complaining (which I do plenty), we should be celebrating how a moderately talented team (albeit with very good pitching) is winning. The Braves remind me a little of the 1969 Mets, who had a mediocre lineup and great pitching (and a good dollup of luck) and managed to win. I wouldn’t mind the same results.
Did the Braves not sign these draft picks?
I don’t know that McCann would start in Philly. Ruiz is, after all, the second-best catcher in the league, behind only Yadier Molina.
I hope Philly falls on its face out west and we can get something like a 4 game lead by the end of the week.
Also, in car news, I found a dealership who claims they will get me the exact build of a Challenger on their lot in the color I want for the same price! Hopefully it works out. My birthday is next week and I’m going to the game and I want to do it in that car.
Am I right that these two “phenoms” were our 17th and 18th round draft picks? What sort of fetishist goes off the deep end over not signing these guys? I get that they’re talented, but every team takes flyers on guys who are likely headed to college. There must be 100 other players just like them in this draft alone.
#8 – I know, right? Could you imagine how bad Brian’s #’s would be in that stadium for a full season. Brian should feel lucky to hit at the Ted. Its such a hitter friendly field, esp for LH’rs…
#10 – and why were we even having to offer “millions” of dollars for 17th and 18th round picks?
10—Yeah, I mean, I was excited about the possibility of adding one or both of them, especially after not having a first-round pick this year. (I know Salcedo is our “first-round pick,” but still.)
That said, going off the deep end over losing out on them is patently ridiculous.
12—A million per probably would’ve gotten it done. They were really good prospects, guys who’d have been drafted much earlier if teams knew they could get them away from their respective college commitments.
@9 Bethany
Posted photgraphic evidence of that birthday trip will be required.
12,
Quite simply because they’re first round caliber players but signability concerns dropped them to the 17th and 18th rounds, where the team would have to buy them out of their college commitment. Every team has a few picks like Sabol/Alvord. Most of the time they don’t get signed, not sure why everyone thinks our team is run by idiots because of this.
Is there anyone here who is “going off the deep end”?
I am disappointed that they went unsigned, because by most accounts they were 1st or 2nd round talents. It certainly sounds like both were interested, if not close, to signing.
16—See chris, in the previous thread.
PW, well apparently everyone was right about the signability concerns. I have a hard time believing that 1st round talents can drop that far. Some teams would try to get them before the 17th round wouldnt they?
Don’t kids with a college scholarship in hand typically fall down in the draft even if scouts are high on them? I don’t claim to be a baseball draft expert, so I am really asking. Also, at least with the Alvords they made it clear that they wanted high six figures for a bonus. High six figures reads to me as 900,000 dollars.
edit: Are they worth more than Lipka who reportedly signed for 800,000?
As much as I would like the Braves to upgrade the offense, I am happy that the A.Ramirez rumors turned out to be just that.
@14 I see what you did there.
Are we really going to waste the morning after a glorious win arguing over two later round picks that we didn’t sign?
I’m surprised how down everyone is on the Ramirez idea. He had a thumb injury early in the season, but he’s hit .299/.349/.586 since coming off the DL. In other words, right back to where he was, one of the 20 or so best players in the NL.
Edit: I understand the money concerns, but any contention that he’s not still a very valuable player is off the mark IMO.
18,
Seems that way, but this does happen all the time. Austin Wilson fell to the 12th round, which I thought was crazy, considering he probably had the best tools among hitters in the draft apart from Harper.
19,
It’s all about whether the kid wants to play or not. If he does, he’ll usually sign. The college scholarship does give him a lot of leverage, though.
21,
I’m with you.
19—They are both pretty comparable to Lipka, reputation-wise.
Ramirez is pretty good. I wouldn’t mind having him, especially considering the post-Chipper alternatives.
Question for draftniks (including fetishists!) — do highly touted position players have a greater tendency to go to college than highly touted pitchers? I know if I had a kid who was a great hitter, I’d want him to face some college pitching, which I presume would be more polished in a quality program. On the other hand, if he was a pitcher I’d try very hard to get him into a professional organization ASAP to save his arm.
Now that the deadline has passed, I would be interested to see what each MLB team spent on this year’s draft and how the Braves stack up. Last year we were in the bottom 1/3 through the first 10 rounds.
what would you do with Chipper and Aramis next season? Braves must be thinking Chipper is done
25—Generally speaking, I believe your intuition is correct. Anecdotally, it’s actually been the reverse at Vandy, where pitching coach Derek Johnson’s reputation gets the stud pitchers (Sowers, Price, Minor, Gray — now, Ziomek, and we’ll see about Beede, Pfeifer, and possibly Norris) to make it to campus.
@27
That’s a tough question — only somewhat analogous to the Glavine situation, as there’s only one starting 3B. But I’d be willing to confront it in exchange for a greater chance to win the 2010 pennant. Not that it matters at this point, as it sounds like nothing’s happening on that front.
Dollars aside I had concerns over Aramis’ durability. He has missed a lot of baseball the last 2 seasons.
26,
BA does that every year.
I’d like to point out for all those fantasizing about getting rid of KK or Lowe this offseason, that our SP depth took a great hit with the Medlen injury. For 2011 we have only have 6 viable starters including (KK, Lowe, JJ, Hanson, Hudson and Minor) and really no one close after that. If we trade one of those guys and someone gets injured, who is our fifth starter? Beachy? Redmond? Teheran shouldn’t even be considered until June or July and even that is probably too early but I could see it. I just don’t see us leaving ourselves in the position to be relying on Redmond for meaningful games.
I’m surprised how down everyone is on the Ramirez idea.
I don’t think anyone is opposed to the idea of Aramis R. on it’s face – I think you can legitimately have concerns about the money, his performance on aggregate for the year, his home/road splits, and projected place on the depth chart for next year and still acknowledge that in a vacuum, he is a very valuable player. Nobody said he wasn’t any good – well, I did say he wasn’t hitting this year, but took it back after being reminded of his pre/post injury splits.
Looks like The Prado Returns tonight.
@9, should you acquire said vehicle and drive it to the game, I will be happy to stand you to a celebratory birthday/car/Braves win beer at a nearby venue.
Dusty,
I fantasize about getting rid of those two every day. It is what keeps me going. Don’t ruin that dream with facts.
My view of Wren, who has done some good things, is tainted by those two.
Of course if you move Lowe and KK, you can spend some of that money on pitching and some of the money on a bat.
Makes sense, spike. If you hadn’t been following Aramis all year (as I, a long-suffering fantasy owner of his, has been), you probably weren’t aware of the truly stunning pre- and post-injury splits. From .168/.232/.285 to the above.
I want to throw a Prado Parade to celebrate his return.
Just had a dealer call in to make some concessions… maybe things are starting to turn around.
Dusty at 32,
I have no problem in looking at Beachy as a #6 going into next year and Redmond as a #7 with Teheran as a late season possibility behind them.
Actually, the Braves were only nibbling around Aramis based on contract modifications. Possibly as severe as dropping next year’s player option, but certainly like dropping the 2012 vesting option. And, if you are asking for modifications, those can only be done post wiaver after the player has fully cleared, so you haven’t “bought the contract as is”.
ASSUMING, you only had this year and next to commit on Ramirez and ASSUMING you could get relief from 2012, then wouldn’t it make sense to get him (wouldn’t he be good enough to meet Chipper’s “if we really got a good player I would move to first”) and move Chipper to first. Net payroll impact would be the difference from Glaus to Ramirez next year (about 9 or so million).
I think the money side would make money. That is, the increased playoff odds and the increased chance of going deep would pay the salary difference.
I didn’t realize the Aramis Ramirez option for 2012 had a vesting component. This is almost like an Omar Minaya job:
2012 option becomes guaranteed if Ramirez:
* wins one MVP in 2007-11, or
* places 2nd or 3rd in MVP vote twice in 2007-11, or
* wins LCS MVP once in 2007-11, or
* is an All Star 3 times in 2007-11, or
* is traded & Ramirez exercises 2011 option
heard a little of Wren talking on XM this morning, said the team feels like with Prado returning and having Omar Infante playing everyday that they should be fine.
Is an outfield of Melky/Ankiel/Heyward the best throwing outfield we’ve had?
how would you set the lineup for tonight?
Is it just me, or does Ankiel in a helmet look like the Dad on “That 70s Show”?
Infante
Melky
Prado
McCann
AAG
Heyward
Glaus
Ankiel
I can’t decide if Heyward and Melky should flip flop…
Ankiel looks like Liev Schreiber.
Melky shouldn’t bat that high against a lefty, IMO. And, of course, Diaz should be in the line-up. I’d probably go with:
Infante
Heyward
Prado
Diaz
McCann
Glaus
AAG
Melky
Someone’s saying we went cheap and didn’t sign a future Chase Utley? I highly doubt that would have happened. If you’ve got a future Utley in your sight, uh, I think he’d have been….signed.
I always forget that Olsen is left handed.
I just know how much Bobby loves the lefty righty lineups, I cant imagine how he’d make it out for tonight.
meanwhile, Scott Olsen sucks right now. We better have a good backing for Minor
Diaz
Heyward
Prado
Glaus
McCann
Infante
AAG
Ankiel
I’d go:
Prado
Infante
Heyward
McCann
Diaz
Gonzalez
Glaus
Melky
I really doubt Bobby takes Prado out of leadoff.
Prado
Heyward
Diaz
McCann
Infante
Melky
Glaus
Gonzalez
“All Friday and Saturday games… are exempt from this offer.”
NOOOOOOOO. I might not be able to go to a game on my birthday after all.
Prado
Infante
Bmac
Diaz
Heyward
AAG
Melky
Glaus
based on how they are swinging right now. Glaus has never hit Olsen well, but we all know Bobby wont hit him 8th. Id really like to see Martin and Omar 1-2 and dropping Heyward back down into an RBI role with Chipper out now
The #2 spot is an RBI role, a more important one than the #3 spot.
I’ve got to agree with csg on his lineup and I also agree that Glaus won’t hit 8th. Move Glaus to 6th and AAG and Melky to 7th and 8th and that would be my guess. I wouldn’t be surprised to see Heyward hitting third against a righty.
The #2 spot is an RBI role
What does this mean? Who is an “RBI role” hitter that isn’t just, you know, a good regular hitter? Why is #2 an RBI role and 3 not?
This does not sound like anything I’ve head from you before.
/wait – you didn’t walk away from your computer while you were logged in did you?
Current Sabermetrical thinking is that the #2 spot is more important, in terms of scoring runs, than the #3 spot. When you think about it, who is most likely to come up with a chance to drive in a run with an XBH, but not a single — that is, a relatively fast runner at first base and the other two bases empty? The #2 hitter.
I know Olsen is sucking right now, but is it just me or does Olsen always seem to have a good outing vs the Braves? Anyone have the numbers on that?
I’ll also add this about the Alvord thing. If there was really a deal in place and the Braves reneged (like what happened with Furcal/whoever else a few years back but in reverse), do you really think the only people the Alvord folks would’ve leaked it to would be a Braves fan blog? There are TONS of other folks that could spread the rumor better/faster and would no doubt also say it. It really sounds to me like people covering their own ass.
And the “response” at TC is silly. The Braves looking at some options for 3B has no bearing on how they’d allocate money for the draft. I don’t doubt that someone told the guy that’s why the offer got pulled. I’m saying it makes no sense, and whether or not the Braves actually looked at Ramirez doesn’t change that. Changing their valuation of prospects based on a possible waiver pick up would be a horrible strategy for running a baseball club, and thus far, there’s really no evidence that the Braves employ horrible strategies for running a club.
Olsen is 4-5 with a 5.65 ERA in 15 games against the Braves.
even more important
Olsen is 1-3 with a 9.92 ERA and .356 opponents’ average in his past four starts.
Someone needs to enlighten me on something regarding the draft.
So Harper signed a 5 year deal with the Natinals? Same goes to Strasburg (4 years) and many other picks.
So in 4-5 years, they will be free agents?? If they’re drafted and go to the minors, shouldn’t they follow the same rules as other milbers, you know with the cost-controlled years, arbitration and stuff? Why don’t all prospects do this?
What happens when Strasburg signs with the Yankees in 4 years? I’d rather have a guy like Hanson that you can keep for much longer.
I’m lost.
why would they be free agents?
Thanks for the numbers Mac, I must only be remembering a game or two!
52—I think, with Chipper gone, especially against a lefty, Martin will get the prized third spot.
63—Major-league deal just means they’ll be out of options and required to be on the 40-man by the end of the deal.
Free agency is only in regard to ML service time. That clock doesn’t start until they first see time on a 25-man roster, I believe.
Infante
Heyward
Prado
Glaus
McCann
Gonzalez
Diaz(is slumping of late)
Ankiel(better in CF than Melky)
63- Think of the difference between their contract value and their guaranteed minimum salaries as a prorated signing bonus. The team guaranteed the additional money so that they could be signed.
I’m pretty sure sdp is right. Strabsurg’s arbitration and free-agency clocks didn’t start running until June.
Strasburg will not be a free agent at the end of his deal, but he will be able to take the Nats to arbitration for the next (three?) years. They’ll probably try to buy him out with another long-term deal, unless they’re flat broke (again).
Against RHP:
Infante
Prado
Heyward
McCann
Gonzalez
Freeman/ Canizares/ anyone but Glaus, please
Diaz
Melky
DOB tweet points out that melky is .226/.297/.283 in first 54 games and .304/.354/.459 in past 61 games…..
is this a turnaround or time to “sell high”
I’ll go with this against the lefty:
Infante 4
Cabrera 8
Prado 5
McCann 2
Glaus 3
Hewyard 9
Diaz 7
Despair 6
I guess I’m the only one to notice Diaz isn’t hitting since he re-injured his thumb. Somebody up there had him hitting leadoff with his .283 OBP.
Edit: I guess braves14 noticed too.
Glad to hear we are skimping on draft picks now. It’s hard to believe since we splurged on the guy making $7 million to pitch at AAA.
Historically, Melky is a bit of a second-half player. Not as drastically as Mark Teixeira or anything, but here are the career splits:
1st half: .265.327/.375
2nd half: .275/.335/.396
In other words, he hit far worse than usual in the first half, he’s been hitting better than usual of late, and we could have expected his 2nd-half numbers to improve both because of regression to the mean and because he’s historically a better second-half hitter.
Is he this good? No. But he’s better than he looked in the early going.
You know as much as I hated the Melkster at the start of the season, he’s really starting to grow on me. Sell high is probably the right answer but he’s been a useful player for a while now.
if i were a betting man, i’d bet we see j-hey move out of the 2 hole tonight, and probably for the foreseeable future. i’ll bet the 1 and 2 spot go to prado and infante for quite a while, as it should. omar, aside from prado, is the best situational hitter on this team and deserves the spot. i’d go…
lhp
prado
infante
diaz
glaus (swim or drown big boy)
bmac
gonzalez
heyward
melky
rhp
prado-1b
infante-3b
heyward
bmac
hinske-
conrad-2b
gonzalez
ankiel
glaus has no business starting everyday anymore.
Major League contracts for draft picks is an interesting topic. Not sure about all the intricacies it entails. Here’s a post regarding options.
Robert’s right; Diaz is 5 for 28 this month. On the other hand, he adores hitting against Scott Olsen, against whom he’s 12 for 31 with 4 homers and 7 RBI.
Looks like Brett DeVall, who tore a ligament in his elbow last year and tried to pitch with rehab and a scope, will get TJ surgery after all. (At least, he’s headed Birmingham-way.) In other words, he just wasted a year.
I think Glaus would be more effective with more rest. He should get the Chipper treatment with frequent days off. He has played more than most of the other regulars.
Bobby Thomson died. Played for the Braves 1954-1956. Was supposed to start in left in 1954, but got hurt and some kid from Mobile took his spot.
@78: It was obvious something wasn’t right. His velocity has been non-existent this year.
#78 – was that his decision or the Braves org decision…Same thing may be about to occur with Vizcaino
Ultimately, it’s his decision. Doctors are very insistent upon consent. I’m sure that the team guided it.
I’ve never needed TJ surgery, of course, but I’m of the get-the-surgery-now school. I can’t recall anyone who didn’t eventually need it after tearing an elbow tendon. Unless you’re old and a year is a significant part of your remaining career, it’s usually best to get it over with.
What about Pujols? Wasn’t it two years ago when everyone was saying his elbow (maybe shoulder?) was messed up to hell and he, as far as I know, played through it?
Hitters, sure. Pitchers, though?
Would The World Anti-Doping Agency Kindly Shut The Hell Up?.
Unless you’re old and a year is a significant part of your remaining career, it’s usually best to get it over with.
Sutton was saying last night that with older pitchers, the year of not pitching contributes to their post surgery success almost as much as the surgery itself, FWIW,
Just for the hell of it, Don Sutton on the Match Game.
@85 Of course. That example was just on my mind, adding to the mystique of the mighty Pujols.
Pujols is a first baseman and doesn’t ever really have to throw.
“RT ESPN’S Bruce Levine reports that there’s NO truth to the Braves/Ramirez talk. Bruce says the #Braves never talked to #Cubs about Rami.”
I always enjoy the whole, “I just confirmed team A did this” then someone counters “No, I just spoke to team B and that NEVER happened!”
At this point, I honestly worry about the Braves against terrible “Scott Olsen” types more than against great “Roy Halladay” types.
Prado has been activated. Tonight’s lineup:
Infante, 2b
Heyward, rf
Prado, 3b
Diaz, lf
Glaus, 1b
Gonzalez, ss
Melky, cf
Ross, c
Minor, p
I’ll take the Braves batting against Scott Olsen over Roy Halladay 8 days a week, 6 ways from Sunday, and also ’til the cows come home.
*Prado confetti*
Would it make more sense to have a third catcher and be able to use Ross and McCain more often as PHs?
I’m glad Bobby’s going with Prado at 3rd. I think that also tells you what the FO plans are. I don’t think you would move Prado off of 2nd where he’s been all year, if you are actively pursuing a 3rd baseman. I could be wrong of course.
Game thread.
I have it on good authority that Team B was only talking to Team A to make Team C jealous. Also, Team B has totally gotten fat.