Braves 7, Giants 5 (13 innings)

ESPN – Braves vs. Giants Box Score, July 24 2007 – MLB

Guys, I don’t think that the complete game thing is going to happen. Hudson took a 4-0 lead to the ninth, walked the first two men, got the next two, then allowed a single and was pulled… only to see Wickman blow the save. It’s the second time this year that basically this has happened. Luckily, this time the Braves were able to win in extras. Barely.

The Braves took a 3-0 lead in the fourth inning when Francoeur doubled past that sloth the Giants have in left field to score Chipper and KJ singled him and McCann home. Chipper’s homer in the fifth made it 4-0, but the Braves weren’t able to build on that. Luckily, Hudson was dealing. He wound up going 8 2/3 with six hits allowed, four strikeouts and three walks. It was the walks that killed him.

The Vulture pitched a strong tenth, then Moylan had few problems in the eleventh and twelfth. In the thirteenth, Julio drew a one-out walk. Woodward ran for him, which turned out to be a mistake, as most uses of Woodward are. Escobar singled, then a wild pitch put them at second and third. Harris grounded out, Woodward being thrown out at home. Renteria came through, though, with a double to score two, and Chipper singled him home to make it 7-4.

Unfortunately, Bobby went to the tag team of Fredo and Kali to finish. Ledezma got the first guy, then walked the sloth. Woodhead fielded a grounder and tried to throw the sloth out at second, but hit him instead, bringing the tying run to the plate. Kali then came in to walk the bases loaded, followed by a single to score one. Somehow he got the next two to get the save.

Renteria and Chipper had three hits apiece. Three Braves — Harris, Andruw, and McCann — went 1-6.

413 thoughts on “Braves 7, Giants 5 (13 innings)”

  1. Good Morning All,

    I fell asleep when it was 4-1 in the 9th and my eyes opened during the 10th to see a 4-4 tie. I was so sickened I went to bed.

    The Braves were ONE OUT AWAY from the first complete game of the year, Bobby PANICKED (he should have listened to Stu) and took Huddy out who I think would have finished the job.

    Blob Wickman is awful on the road. I suppose it could be worse and be really like Reitsma and Kolbb and be awful everywhere, but I am sick of his shit. This is the fucking answer to our closer problems? Plus, Soriano now stinks, mainly because Bobby abused his arm, early in the year.

    Besides the fact that Wick isn’t as good as he used to be, the real problem has always been Bobby’s management of the bullpen. He gassed these relievers so much early in the season (and yes, we had Mark Redman starts and Davies starts so they had to be used at times), but we should think about a few 9-1 games where I saw Soriano come out of the pen. That’s where it got messed uo.

    If there ever was such a think as a bad win, this was it. Thankfully, I woke up to find out we WON, but still, how we didn’t finish a team off that’s already out of it, in the 9th, is sickening.

    The Braves are in deep trouble if we don’t get some more bullpen help and Bobby doesn’t stop abusing his relievers. It’s really Bobby’s biggest achilles heel. It’s why he even has to go to 8 relievers at times.

    Why again are we not giving Joey Devine a shot, by the way?

  2. Oh, and one more thing. If the Braves don’t DFA Chris Woodward soon, I am going to torsh my television set. Enough of this guy already.

    He brings absolutely nothing, whatsoever, to the table. He gets an occasional single. That’s about it. His defense sucks, his offense sucks, he sucks.

    Chris Woodward, you are an infestation of crap. You are a disease. Go away. With everything I read about how you (and Wickman) tried to destroy the Braves last night, I am sick of you.

  3. Whilst I agree that Wickman currently sucks, I think it was the right decision to take Huddy out at that stage. I am not sure he would have gotten out of it either. Wickman is the closer and you should be able to turn to him in this situation and noch screw it up like he did. But, yes, he did. At least we won.

  4. I did the same Alex. I fell asleep w/ 2 out in the ninth because I figured even Smitty’s barber could get the last out and end the game. I wake up this morning and see the recap and am thankful that I didn’t stay up. I got a great night’s sleep. :)
    Just my opinion, but Salty is gonna be traded today. The fact that Bobby didn’t even use him last night and instead brough woodward in at first confirms that to me. I also read that the Braves are close on a deal for Tex and that in addition to Salty, Jo-Jo and Andrus have had their names thrown out there. I hope all 3 aren’t included for Tex alone.

  5. I thought a runner was out when he got hit by a ball. Or is that only when it is a batted ball and not a throw?

    Anyway, I went to bed when it was 3-0 and I am glad I didn’t try to stay up until 2:00 am to watch them blow a lead in the ninth.

  6. O.K. I just clicked over to watch some of that Gwar video and hmmmm…

    When I was younger I thought they were freaky and scary. Now I watch that and I feel sorry for them. A bunch of grown-ups that just look and sound ridiculous. Sad!!!

  7. Obviously a runner isn’t out when hit by a thrown baseball, or runners would get pegged all the time. The only exception is when it’s judged that they intentionally interfered with the ball, which only happens rarely. In this case, the sloth’s back was to the throw.

  8. AMH – that’s on a batted ball

    I’ll take the win, to be sure. Just not how it was accomplished. That was too close for comfort.

  9. And the latest from the Dallas Morning News:

    Mark Teixeira (Going): It’s pretty clear the Rangers would like to trade Teixeira to the Los Angeles Dodgers because the NL club is loaded with young talent. But James Loney’s excellent play at first has given the Dodgers no real motivation to make such a deal. Atlanta, on the other hand, started Julio Franco at first recently. Teixeira would be a huge acquisition for the Braves, very much in the hunt for both the NL East and wild card. Get used to pronouncing the last name of Jarrod Saltalamacchia (pronounced just like it looks), or you can just call him Salty. The Rangers should get a minor league pitcher in the deal, too.

    Joaquin Benoit (Going): His value is the highest it’s ever been. He either completes a blockbuster package along with Teixeira to the Dodgers or he goes there by his lonesome.

    Akinori Otsuka (Staying): He won’t pitch in a game before the weekend. I see no way he’s active in time to bring the Rangers back significant value.

    Link: http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dws/spt/baseball/rangers/stories/072507dnsporangletter.27c816f.html

  10. “Obviously a runner isn’t out when hit by a thrown baseball, or runners would get pegged all the time.”

    Good point. Though we used to play that way when I was a kid and we didn’t have enough people to play defense.

    Sloth is a good name for Bonds. 1st or 2nd inning there was a popup to left that he just kind of walked over for and let it drop a foot or two in front of him.

  11. I blame Hudson. What a wimp. He has a 4-0 lead against what is basically a lineup from the Seniors Tour and walks the first two guys. It’s like he says, oh it’s the ninth inning, I must be tired. There was no reason for him not to sail through the 9th. As for Wickman, what the hell happened on the fly to left–it was a routine fly ball that should have been caught. And the next guy hit a ball that was on the ground through the hole. He wasn’t great, but he deserved better than that. But’s it is pretty clear you can’t send Huddy out for the ninth. I guess you can argue about whether he should have stayed in but when you walk the first two guys with a four-run lead, you have only yourself to blame, no matter how well you pitched before.

    And, of yeah, anybody still want to trade Edgar? (How about Andruw?)

    Thank god for Tivo so I can fast forward through the late innings.

    It appears that no lead is big enough for the Braves not to blow even against a horrible team like the Giants. (By the way, Matt Morris wasn’t that bad–if he had defense that wasn’t all on Social Security, he would probably have pitched a pretty good game. How do you consciously put together a team that is this old?)

    I’m skeptical that teh Braves will get Teixera. My fear is that if the Red Sox want him, they would be willing to overpay. If the trade does happen, it’s a gamble depending on how good you think Salty is going to be.

  12. I’m back…and I welcome Tex alone with a lefthanded, and I mean a really good lefthanded relief pitcher.

  13. I truly hope that the idea of trading Renteria was never really true because without him we may be somewhere down around the Marlins or the Nationals. He may not be the slickest fielder or have a cannon for an arm, but as far as consistency is concerned, he’s The Man.

  14. Mentioned in the previous thread, but Cormier threw an 83 pitch, complete game shutout last night for Richmond. He gave up 6 H and 0 BB, and struck out 4.

  15. Tony, welcome back. Noah tried to fill in ably for you yesterday but Stu let him know that he couldn’t fill your shoes ;-)

  16. Marc;
    As you’ve pointed out, last night’s game was only good if you had TiVo!

    This site may be the only place a player can be called “the sloth” and each of us know who Mac means. He will forever be known by that inickname in my mind.

    Tex watch starts here and now.

  17. Whew!

    A slightly different take: I am really pleased that the Braves won this game. When Wickman blew it in the ninth, I did not think there was any way we would win the game. Kudos to the Braves for not rolling over.

    In some defense of Wickman, Marc is right about the fly ball double. How does that thing drop between Willie Harris and Andruw?!? It’s like Harris must have been talking to some fans in the left field seats when it was hit and Andruw was playing in right center. We weren’t just within one out of closing this thing out; we were within one strike of ending at least twice in the ninth. The fly ball was followed by a grounder that just found a hole. Sometimes, you just pitch into bad luck.

    Also, the final hit given up by Hudson was a dink. I really think he could have and should have closed it out.

  18. As far as the trades, I am a little concerned that Bobby does not seem to be willing to allow potential fixes inside the organization to work. He would not pitch Joey Devine when he was up and he won’t really let Salty play first. I think before you trade away pitching and our top prospect for Tex, you might want to see what Brayan Pena on the bench and Salty at first would look like on a regular basis.

    As far as lefty relief pitchers, it should depend on the asking price. We have Startup who has looked ready for a big league test for more than a year, not to mention Phil Stockman trying to get healthy. It seems like the number one problem with our pen is that it is over-used. Adding a veteran doesn’t solve that problem. If it is a choice between Will Startup and Steve Kline (at the cost of someone like Lillibridge or Jordan Schafer), then Startup is the clear choice.

  19. Well, actually, the game was fine until the 9th. I went to bed after the Braves hit in the 8th suspecting that the last two innings might be an adventure, but, really, as bad as the Giant lineup is, I assumed they would get through it.

    The point with Hudson is why the hell are you walking guys with a 4-run lead? In that context, it made sense that Bobby would take him out. At the point Huddy was at, throw the ball down the middle and see if they hit it at somebody. Walking guys in that situation is death. I guarantee, Smoltz would have found a way in that situation to get three outs. Difference, I guess, between a good pitcher and a Hall of Famer.

    It seems to me that Wickman isn’t that much worse than he was last year or earlier this year, but he doesn’t have the kind of stuff that allows much room for error. He hadnt been that great in Cleveland and it was sort of inevitable that he would hit a wall after teams saw him a few times. He is a passable closer and not much else. He also doesn’t have the kind of stuff that allows him to pitch around things like missed fly balls.

  20. Enjoy. Though I am now fully convinced Noah is in fact a White Sox fan hiding among the Braves Journal crew…or just Jon Garland’s agent.

    Re: Cormier

    I wouldn’t trust his mediocre stuff as far as I could throw him; great, he got Triple AAA hitters out. Let’s give a pitcher a chance who might actually get Major League hitters out.

  21. Huddy was also at 115 pitches, which I did not realize. The move does make more sense in that context.

  22. I stayed up last night to watch the game…all of it. Needless to say, this is not going to be a very productive day at work.

    It’s too bad Chipper got hurt…again. He would seriously in the mix for MVP.

  23. I cannot believe there was actually a convo about trading Renteria…that had to be a joke…wow…unbelievable.

  24. Yes, our most reliable offensive player (and possible team MVP)for a sore armed 28 year old, who stinks this year and doesn’t strike anyone out.

    This actually wasted a lot of space in the blogosphere yesterday.

  25. I guess another thing to point out (if it is even necessary, any more) is that Andruw left five runners on and is clearly inviting the opponents to pitch around Chipper. Andruw waited until the 12th to get an inconsequential single. He did at least draw a two out walk to load the bases in the 7th, but McCann couldn’t capitalize.

    Has anyone here ever thought that he should be moved down in the lineup? I guess acquiring Tex could do that for us.

  26. By the way, I’ve finally realized what I hate most about Chip Carey. Whenever he gets worked up about something, he’ll laugh about it. But then, for the first part of the next sentence, he’ll talk in kind of a wheezing bray.

    It is probably the most annoying thing ever. It increases my chances of a stroke every time I hear it.

  27. Getting Tex will make Chipper even better. If he is hitting like he is now with Andruw behind him, then imagine an actual threat being in the lineup behind him.

  28. In no way should Hudson had been pulled after the one out. How many times do we watch Wickman struggle when he comes in with runners on base. Hudy started the ninth and should have won or lost it by himself. The single wasnt hit hard at all and Im almost positive he would have gotten one of the next two guys. However, we won the game and thats all that matters.

    Willie Harris, put a little more effort into your defense please

  29. Tony, basically what happened is: Peter Gammons has brain damage. He was babbling on the Sunday night game about the Braves making trades and said that they’d discussed Renteria with the White Sox for Jon Garland, but the Sox won’t trade Garland. I am convinced that he meant Escobar to the White Sox, because Renteria doesn’t make sense for them. One guy thinks that it’s a good idea to trade one of your core offensive players in the middle of a pennant race in exchance for a third starter.

  30. Mac,

    That’s to say if Garland was even pitching like a 3rd starter this year. He’s not better at this point then Jo Jo Reyes, Chuck James or Buddy Carlyle.

  31. His ERA is a few percent better than the league. I’d say that’s a third starter. Still not a realistic trade. Gammons should retire.

  32. More on the Garland thing (and perhaps some good nes on that front):

    White Sox GM Kenny Williams isn’t looking to trade his 27-year-old right-hander, but Williams is nothing if not creative and open-minded.

    Teams aren’t offering the kind of prospects Williams is seeking in return for pitchers Jose Contreras and Javier Vazquez, so he’s listening when they ask about Garland, who is signed through 2008 and is scheduled to make $12 million next year. The Yankees have expressed some interest, as have the Braves, who reportedly have offered shortstop Edgar Renteria in return (thinking they can play Yunel Escobar at shortstop in Renteria’s place). Garland is a long shot to move before Tuesday. But as teams get more and more desperate to find good starting pitchers to add before the deadline, his is the kind of name you can expect to start hearing in creative proposed deals.

    Key stat: Garland won 18 games in 2005 and 18 more in 2006. The two-year total of 36 was the highest over those two years in the American League. The only other pitcher in the majors who won as many as 36 games in 2005-06 was the Cardinals’ Chris Carpenter, who won 21 in 2005 and 15 in 2006.

    Link: http://www.nj.com/sports/ledger/index.ssf?/base/sports-2/1185337563294500.xml&coll=1

  33. “Typical Huddy game,” Braves manager Bobby Cox said. “He pitches his [tail] off and then we blow it. He can’t pitch any better than that. He was just unbelievable. Huddy’s snake-bit with this type of game. It’s unbelievable. He ought to be on his way to 20 [wins].”

    Yeah, maybe he’d be on to 20 wins if you weren’t such a TF when managing your pitching staff, most notably the bullpen (Alex R., you’ve covered that much better than I could already).

    What I don’t understand is why Bobby would let Hudson walk the 1st two batters of the inning, pitch to Bonds, and THEN yank him after Aurilia broke up the shutout. Let him finish the game if you’ve already had him pitch to the heart of the order.

    Oh, and another thing….they need to get put a stationary bike or something in the bullpen for Wickman. Dude looks like he’s 10 months pregnant.

  34. The Giants are so old there are times that I feel bad for them. Especially when KJ hit that ground ball up the middle with the infield in…I know it was a tough play but Rich and Omar might as well have had walkers.

    Then their outfielders are all on social security. I’m really hoping for the sweep, with the Mets playing the Pirates and all.

  35. #35 –

    Mac, I agree. I know Gammons is a Hall of Famer so ESPN basically can’t do anything with him, but on Sunday I noticed he was really slurring his speech. I don’t think he’s healthy.

    He did cover the Clash’s “Death or Glory” though…so brain damage or not that is still unspeakably cool.

  36. I believe the Braves will indeed get Tex, the question now is how much JS is giving up…

  37. I find it interesting that two of ESPN’s most prominent reporters and rumor mill-meisters, Gammons and Olney, have strong Red Sox and Yankees ties, respectively.

    This is why I can’t take ESPN seriously. Then they come at us with Steve Phillips, former Mets GM, and John Kruk, former co-star on “The Worst Damn Sports show in the History of Mankind”.

    ESPN needs to wake the hell up. Stop making your network about 3 teams (the Mets, Yanks and Sox) and one player (Bonds) and get people people to do your Baseball coverage. I like Kurkjian and despite the Andruw controversy, I like Jayson Stark.

    But Gammons is a problem. The person who said in here yesterday that Gammons only trade scenarios for the Red Sox always seem to involve them getting a star player and giving crap in return. At least Olney occassionally tries to branch out from Yankee land…like watching that moron Mike Greenberg milk Bessie the Cow.

    I wish the cow had sprayed all over Greeny’s obnoxious face.

  38. The “official source” link on braves.com makes it seem so. I would guess Salty and Reyes or Joey Devine.

  39. I hope Texas throws in a reliever. Bobby could use another arm to destroy down there.

  40. Time to start using Moylan as closer. Wickman is done (delenda est) and Soriano isn’t much better.

    This team has enough starting pitching to compete (trading for a #3 better than Chuck James would help but is unlikely). What it needs is a power hitting first baseman or outfielder who also gets on base a decent amount and an effective LOOGY or another closer caliber reliever.

    Trading Renteria for anything at this point would make the team worse unless they get back 2 quality offensive players which is pretty much impossible. Trade Edgar in the offseason if ever. Trading him now would tank the season.

  41. The reason Joey Devine doesn’t get to pitch in the bigs even when he gets called up is because whenever he touches a baseball, a grand slam is inevitable. I believe it’s like Newtons 12th law of physics:
    Whatsoever is thrown by Joey Devine must be inversely hit a distance of at least 450 feet and shall be followed by 4 RBIs.

    You may be able to argue with Bobby Cox… But you can’t argue with science.

  42. I watched the game until I became disgusted and tired in the 10th. But I cannot fault Bobby for taking out Hudson as it was easily his weakest inning. Also, the hits off Wickman were hardly line drives; in fact, he was making some pretty good pitches….

    One final observation: if we had lost I would have blamed our tepid offense as we should have had more runs.

    Otherwise, I would not be surprised to see Salty go to Texas, but I don’t see the Braves trading Renteria. They have always liked him–and with good reason….

  43. You know, the Braves might as well trade Salty and Devine, since apparently, Bobby’s completely unwilling to use either of them at this point.

    How many games exactly does our bullpen have to screw up, or who does he have to kill, for Joey Devine to get another shot?

    (Well, if Joey HAD to kill someone, I vote for Chris Woodward and maybe bullets to spray at Dane Cook as well).

  44. I dont want to trade Renteria now or next year. The guy has won about 8-10 games for us with his bat this year and his arm seems to be a little better than last year also. He’s having an MVP caliber year, but doesnt get any credit for it. Salty wont be playing 1st, so Ill trade him for Tex. However, I wont package Jo Jo and Salty for him. Our SP is pitching lights out right now, but we still need one more guy. Cormier has been dominate his last 3 outings and hopefully he keep it up.

  45. I think another bullpen arm from the Rangers is THE issue which is holding up the deal. Salty and Devine for Tex and one bullpen arm sounds good to me.

  46. I went to bed after the top of the 11th because I really had to, but I went to sleep confident in Moylan because he’d be out there for two innings at least and what do you know, he shut them out for two innings. I’m just glad I didn’t have to see Ledezma. Yeesh. Anyway, I’m glad the Braves won. Hopefully todays game isn’t as disastrous.

  47. Ron,

    Moylan is best used as a long reliever, like tonight. His softball stuff is not good enough to close.

  48. csg,

    I couldn’t agree more. But I could handle better Renty being dealt in the offseason for a frontline starter as opposed to right now, in the middle of a pennant drive, when he’s the most reliable hitter in a wildly inconsistent offense.

    But yes, all things being equal, I would like to see Edgar as a Brave in 2007 and 2008.

  49. the top 3 starting positions have been stabilized. between smoltz, hudson, and james, they have thrown 375 innings of 3.31 era baseball. that’s good, and probably top in the nl. we can compete with that. buddy carlyle now supports a 4 era with 60 innings under his belt. i guess it is still early to say that is establishing himself, but he’s getting close. it seems that the starting rotation as a glaring weakness for this team is not as glaring as i once thought. i think, top priority, has to be to get andruw out of the 4 hole, and teixera seems to be the answer. trade salty for tex, keep escargot, dfa woodward, see if anyone is willing to give anything for thorman, put franco where he belongs……as a pinch hitter, and acquire a loogy from somewhere.

  50. ryan c-

    I was saying this a few days ago as well and I think it echos a growing sentiment in here that while we could certainly improve the starting pitching, it’s not the most glaring weakness. The starting pitchers, especially with Davies removed, are basically solid now.

    The bullpen and another bat are huge holes; I also agree 110% about getting frakking Andruw Jones out of the 4 hole already. Enough of this; pitchers are going to start treating Chipper like Bonds and walk him every time. This guy is killing us with his huge swings and DP’s and K’s.

    I do think we need Tex, he’s a huge offensive upgrade on Salty, and McCann is not going anywhere. End of story.

  51. There’s no way we get Tex AND a bullpen arm for Devine and Salty. The only thing Devine has going for him right now is he was a highly thought of college closer.

  52. It’s amazing with Davies out of the rotation that it’s looking so much better.

  53. I hope that we get Teixeria and some more bullpen help.

    But no to trading Jo Jo…he has at least a solid future and, more important, while we have some top of the rotation, high ceiling pitching prospects (Hanson, Feliz and Rohrbaugh) and many other very good ones (Locke, Rodgers, Evarts, Richmond) none are close to helping any time soon. All we have in the near future is Parr (who got hit hard last night, but at least I like), Harrison (who has hit a plateau and has yet to demonstrate that he will get much better) and Smith (who is injured) and Reyes.

    Therefore, if we have to give up Salty and another prospect, then let it not be Jo Jo Reyes. Maybe we can persuade them to take Matt Esquivel (who is from Texas) Devine +Salty + one more player to get Teixeria and a reliever….

  54. Someone earlier said something about Chipper getting hurt. I think it was Comment #25. Does anyone know anything about this?

  55. “Someone earlier said something about Chipper getting hurt. I think it was Comment #25. Does anyone know anything about this?”

    I thought they meant that if he had not been hurt earlier in the year, he would have a good shot at the MVP, but as it is he won’t have enough playing time.

  56. The idea of Tex behind Chipper is appealing but I wish Salty, if he is going to be traded, would be used to fetch us a legit starter. He’s our most valuable chip and our most pressing need is a pitcher, short and long-term. Unfortunately, Smoltz is not going to be here forever. After Tommy Hanson, the minors are loaded with #4/#5 guys.

    That said, i still wish JS could figure out a way to move some other prospects instead. I’m not totally ready to say bye to Salty. Keep him at first and let him back up McCann. Having 2 awesome backstops can’t be all that bad.

  57. Jesus, did anyone really need to revisit the Renteria trade talk AGAIN? What the hell is the matter with you?

    “There’s no way we get Tex AND a bullpen arm for Devine and Salty.”

    True, at least for today. Tex alone costs you three players and one of those apparently has to be a future star.

  58. dfa woodward, call up pena. trade Salty for Tex and then package Escobar/Devine/Thorman for Snell, or two of the three

  59. Matt B-

    There’s no point in keeping Salty to be a great back up Catcher or a light hitting first baseman. Tex is a stud and we need him to give this team a chance to win this year and next year. Sure, there’s a strong chance Tex maybe gone in 2009, but we can’t play for what if’s in 2 years, and the fact remains that right now, Tex is a far superior offensive player to Salty or anyone we currently use at first base.

    According to ESPN, the Braves currently (even with salty) have the worst offensive output in the Major Leagues at first base. This is normally a position (think of our days with McGriff, Klesko and Galarraga) when we put some numbers up at that position.

    Salty may get better but he’s destined, at best, to be a good offensive catcher…still too light a hitter at first.

    I say you absolutely trade the guy if it lands us a big time middle of the order guy like Tex.

    Opportunitirs don’t come like this very often.

  60. Ok, let me explain something to the entire Braves Journal board.

    You can package in Thorman all you want to any deal, but no one in their right mind, wants this stiff. Thorman sucks. Woodward sucks. We can’t trade guys like this, no one, not even the Royals, want people like this.

  61. Alex, you just spoken what I think about Thorman…but hey, if Dayton will give up prospect for Pena, maybe we can get Geinke with Thor!!!

  62. it’s fine if thorman is traded for a bag of baseballs… but i vote for keeping davies. give him some more time in the minors (he was brought up too early, basically out of necessity) and i think he could end up being pretty good.

  63. but if JS can get Moore to give up Greinke for some B level prospects… then i’d jump all over that

  64. I am inclined to agree with Bobby’s decision to take Huddy out for the closer…even if it didn’t work out.

  65. Alex R-

    I can’t disagree with you. Our first base situation is pretty bad. But i have to think that most of that is due to the first half of the season when Thor/Craig Wilson were manning the spot. With Salty out there, it could only get better. I have come to grips with the idea of trading Salty. It is going to happen at some point. I just wish it would be for a pitcher that we’re confident sending out every 5 days. Someone who can help get us back to the Smoltz/Maddux/Glavine era. Obviously that is rare and probably won’t ever happen again but we should be trying to achieve that. First base is an easier position to fill.

    I think we should keep Salty until he fetches us a pitcher. Until then, he mans first and relieves McCann when he’s tired or decides to stick his hand in front of someone’s bat again (like he did again last night).

  66. Honestly, I never like the idea of giving up Salty for one+ year service of Tex. As Matt mentioned, I prefer to use Satly for a long-term solution in centerfield or a legit starting pitcher. However, we have acted conservatively for the past 15 years, and I think it’s time to act a little more aggressively as JS, Bobby, Smoltzie, and Chipper aren’t getting any younger.

  67. Guys, you can forget about Salty playing 1B for Atlanta. It is over. If they were really considering him as the 1B of the future, why has he been benched in favor of Julio Franco? Truly, he is gone. It’s not even an issue anymore–McCann is the catcher, and Salty is trade bait.

    Tex becomes the Braves best player the minute he puts on the uniform, and he makes Andruw Jones expendable for 2008–.

    So, will it be Tex, Millwood and $$ for Salty, Reyes, Devine and Andrus? That’s my guess…

  68. I’d disagree that Davies is on that “no way you can trade them” list. Granted, we don’t see him as part of the Braves future, but there are still plenty of scouts and GMs that would be willing to take a chance on Davies if they did not have to give up much. Unlike Thorman or Woodward, Davies is a perfect player to use to “sweeten the pot.” Especially if we need to give up pitching. Reyes is (at this point and until they have someone else not named Davies to advance) untouchable simply because we do NOT want Davies coming back to the majors and pitching.

  69. nope, if you let him pitch to the 1st 5 batters in the ninth you let him win or lose it. He settled down after the two walks and gave up a weak single. Its his to win or lose at that point. If you do bring someone in, you have to look at the situation and what those people have done in that situation. Wickman sucks on the road and Wickman sucks when coming in with runners on

  70. You know, I remember when everyone was worried about trading Andy Marte. That turned out OK. Bobby makes some strange decisions somestimes, but I trust him and JS on deciding who is worth keeping.

  71. I was one of those that did not think we should have traded Marte and I can now happily admit that I was wrong. It was the right thing to do then and this trade is the right thing to do now.

  72. I would like to get Teixeira, but I am a little worried about how he will hit in Turner Field instead of whatever-its-called-now park in Texas. I think he’ll be good, but a notch below a healthy Chipper.

  73. Yes, there are GM’s out there who actually still think they can fix Davies. And hey, with Roger McDowell as our coach, that maybe half of Davies’ problem, we don’t know. I say deal him in the package if it gets Tex done.

    I also agree that Tex instantly becomes one of our best players. Salty isn’t even close…that’s what people seem to be missing. He’s a nice young player who’s a solid hitter at a position (catcher) where it’s tough to find offense & defense. But he’s not moving McCann and he doesn’t have enough offense to be a regular first baseman.

    Had Salty come in and set the world on fire, and was currently hitting .300 with 10 homers (counting from the time we called him up), the Braves would not even be considering Tex. They would give Salty the job and let it go.

    But considering how meager our offense has looked against a below average Giants pitching staff, this is a major area of concern.

    Bobby is part of the problem…enough with Julio (at least play Salty until he goes) and enougb with Andruw at the 4 spot.

    If we didn’t make a deal, I would rather see Diaz given a shot at 1st base for the rest of the year.

    But to the point that was made earlier about the age and legacies of JS, Cox, Smoltzie and Chipper, that quartet is likely all done by the end of 2008…this team can compete and we should be trying to improve with a win now mentality.

  74. I actually think the bullpen is becoming our biggest weakness…The problem with Wick as a closer, is that he doesn’t strike anyone out. Dennis Eckersley stated “the first thing he would look for in closer, is someone who can get an out without contact”.

    The only one who I have confidence in is Moylan. I am praying that Soriano recovers, b/c he has the best arm out of the bunch.

    Again bring on Tex…We don’t want AJ to tire since he “carrying the team in the 2nd half”. Mercy…

  75. King Diamond-

    I don’t think Salty is the first baseman of the future. I just think we keep him until he gets us a good pitcher.

    I also don’t think “Tex becomes the Braves best player the minute he puts on the uniform.” That’s Chipper Jones.

    I worry a bit about Tex’s numbers since he’s playing in a softball park.

  76. I am definitely in favor of a package for Texeira centered around Saltalamacchia. Teixeria would drastically improve our offense, and he is always better in the second half. I’m cool with him leaving after ’08. Either way we will get a lot of picks for Andruw and Tex to rebuild.

    I’d love to see Texas throw in a reliever, but I have no clue what they have that could be of value. Gagne would be nice, but, like Chipper said, we need a lefty to fill Gonzalez’s role against howard, utley, delgado, down the stretch. Ledezma, right now, is not the answer.

    No one should be untouchable, but I do not like the idea of trading Elvis Andrus.

  77. All of this talk has me warming to the idea of Salty for Tex. But to throw in Andrus and Jo-Jo? Forget it.

  78. A notch below a healthy Chipper, who right now is the second best hitter in the NL, leaves room for someone to be pretty darn good.

    Good point on the Tiexera home/road splits; Arlington has been a nice play to hit.

  79. To say Harris didn’t put effort in on that play is crazy. Watching it again, Willie was going flat out the whole time. the wind was really blowing from left to right and was carrying the ball away from him. That’s why his stumble/dive at the end looked so strange, the ball was moving away from him at a really good clip.

    Andruw actually got a very poor jump on the ball and also mis-read how far the wind was going to carry the ball towards him.

  80. I have absolutely nothing against Chipper, but Tex is much more durable, a lot younger and plays Gold Glove defense, albeit at 1B.

    Both are patient, powerful, extremely valuable hitters, but Tex is the better overall player.

  81. Something that has been bothering me, what exactly is there about Ledezma that interested us in trading for him. His fastball is pretty much straight, he has no breaking ball and no control.

    I can see trading for a guy who has a very live arm with no control, but this guy just doesn’t have anything.

  82. Teixeira’s home and away splits are a little frightening.

    Home: .303/.379/.576
    Away: .265/.359/.492

  83. Yes, the pitcher we all have talked about is CJ Wilson. A lefty with good numbers in a bad ballpark, plenty of strikeouts. Option #2 of Joaqin Benoit (even though he’s a righty) would also suffice…high heat, K pitcher.

    Tony, I wish Blob Wickman would strikeout more people, but at this point, I would just be happy if he would stop blowing 4 run leads with 2 outs in the 9th inning to a bad opponent. That would be a good start!

  84. Alex, the problem is Wickman has to start his own inning and Bobby is having trouble learning that.

  85. We don’t trade Jo-Jo unless we get a stud lefty starter in return…end of that nonsense.

    Memo to McMann…I like you and all, but since Chipper, Griffey, and Smoltz were like your childhood heroes…how about subscribing to their offseason workout regimen. We don’t want to regret trading a fit and trim Salty for well you know….

  86. Hate King, Tex’s 2006 and 2007 Home/Away Splits are very favorable:

    2006 Home: .791 OPS, Away: .983
    2007 Home: .940 OPS, Away: .943

    Doesn’t look like a problem to me.

  87. Hate King,

    And that’s still better than any other first baseman we have by miles.

    Still, his BAbip is .284 on the road while it’s .406 at home.

    But looking at the stats, it’s not the slugging that’s the problem, it’s that he gets a LOT less singles on the road, which is weird.

  88. Tony-

    I like Jo Jo and he’s certainly more effective then Davies, he’s jhust fine as the 5th starter, just be wary of his Horacio like tendencies to not strike many folks out. That doesn’t bode well for him as a long term answer to our rotation.

  89. One other negative note on Tex – his power seems to be down right now – only one home run in the past month (though he was out of action for much of June)

    I’d still do the trade, but let’s not kid ourselves and assume he’s some sort of savoir. Especially if the bullpen doesn’t come around.

  90. Actually, Alex, Jo-Jo pitches are light years better than all the junks HoRo throws out there. At least I haven’t heard JoJo throws a cutter that doesn’t cut.

  91. Finally. Kala Ka’aihue got promoted to AA. In 309 ABs at Myrtle Beach: .298 Avg, .410 OBP, .583 SLG, 20 2B and 22 HRs. Not too bad.

    If they do trade for Teixeira and he walks after next season, maybe this kid could fill in.

  92. Thanks. I was looking at career splits, not recent splits from ’06 and ’07.

    Hopefully Teixeira gets in a dugout fight with Ron Washington and Michael Young. Anything that brings down his value would be great right now.

  93. Alex R,

    Joe Morgan was raving about Jo-Jo on Sunday, that’s all that matters to me. A good hitter, knows a good pitcher when they see one…

  94. We should not trade Andrus or Reyes–but in addition to Salty we can offer Devine, Startup, Kala, Campbell (though his stock has gone down some)Parr, Harrison and Escobar–just to name a few. We have plenty to trade with and I tend to agree that this is an opportune time to improve our team.

    We should hang onto Brandon Jones and Jordan Schafer because replacing Andruw makes these young outfielders more valueable to us than they might be to other teams.

    Replacing Andruw at low cost is even more critical if Texiera is envisioned as a long term Brave. However, my guess is that the Braves would rent Teixera.

    Lets keep in mind that as attractive as Teixera is, he is probably gone after 2008. JS’s track record with Boras clients is scary and it has gotten worse in the last two months. The Braves have been unable to sign Joshua Fields, who is a Boras client, and as a UGA player would probably otherwise have been happy to be a Brave. When JS traded for J.D. Drew, the assumption was that he would be able to sign him for a local discount. Obviously, it did not happen.

    Still, it is hard not to get excited about our lineup with Texiera in it….

  95. for whatever it’s worth, this season Tex has been just as good on the road as he has at home. his splits are almost identical, with the exception that he seems to be more patient on the road, with (strangely) a bit more power.

    also, what “prospect” did the Braves get for Pena from the Royals? from what i understand, Dayton Moore has been doing a nice job over there, especially in his overhauling of the minor league system and commitment to Gordon and Butler. i’d be surprised if JS fleeced Moore. i’m expecting, instead, Moore to fleece Ned Coletti of the Dodgers.

  96. I’m not worried about Tex stats…get him on a contending team and he should be ok. Think Fred McGriff in ’93.

  97. Gee, well if JOE MORGAN likes him, that’s all I needed…he’s the next Johann Santana then.

    Actually, I was at my Hotel in Boston Sunday night and was listening to Joe rave about Jo Jo (which was a nice change from Joe’s usual lack of compliments to the Braves) and I was happy to hear it.

    In all seriousness, I like what I saw from jo Jo in his last 2 starts and it’s not his fault the offense let him down on Sunday. Against a nothing pitcher.

    It only further emboldens the point that we need Tex and relief help.

    Starting pitching – Kyle Davies = solid enough

  98. Stephen, I don’t think the Braves will trade Kala because he is the one who will replace Tex after 2008.

  99. Hypothetically, if the Braves were to get Tex, what happens to the three-headed monster that is FrancoWoodwardThorman?

  100. woodward sent down and pena called up. Thorman and Franco will be PH’s. I dont think the Braves have totally given up on Thorman yet. I dont think they’ll chance putting him through waivers to send him down. they just keep him here another month until we expand the rosters

  101. Besides, I don’t think the Rangers have much of a bargain to go on because I’m sure it’s pointed out that it’s Teixeira that could be an injury risk and his power’s a bit down. That doesn’t call for a two blue-chip prospect price.

  102. @109,

    The guy they got was Erik Cordier, the Royals second round pick of 2004. He’s rehabbing Tommy John right now but threw hard (96-98) and had a 2.70 ERA and .201 BAA prior to going down. It was a risk, but the kid has upside and since they were going to TPJr on waivers, (which he wouldn’t have cleared) it’s probably the best deal they could’ve gotten.

    BTW Dayton is doing a great job in KC. I really think the Royals will be a force in 2009.

  103. JS doesn’t get “raped” by a GM of Jon Daniels’ caliber. Hopefully this trade will lead to Daniels getting fired in a couple of years.

  104. I am fully in Mac’s camp now about McBride deal. Horrible trade. Never, never trust a Fredo.

  105. Oh, I wasn’t disagreeing with the deal. If anything, it was one that made more sense for the Braves. But anyone relying on Angel Berroa needed to bring a warm body in ASAP. I was, basically, just saying that I didn’t think JS was going to take advantage of Moore. I do think he will do what he wants with Jon Daniels, though. Remember, very few of the Braves’ prospects who they’ve traded have come back to bite them.

  106. Ethan, fair enough, but it’s hard to describe how frustrating McBride was for us. He showed potential in his rookie year as a guy who got strikeouts though his righty-lefty splits were absurd. Then, increasingly, he lost control, walked everybody, and simply couldn’t get guys out. I understand why Bobby lost faith with him. One sight of his chubby cheeks, flushed as he tries to catch his breath after yet another bad pitch, and I would get seriously angry.

    If only Fredo didn’t totally suck.

  107. KC–You are probably right about Kala: unless the Braves really think that they can sign Teixera to a long term deal.

    Dayton Moore is collecting former Braves and Tony Pena Jr. is developing as many of us thought he might. At least we got Cordier–the Braves let Luis Hernandez go–just to protect T.J. Bohn.

    I would not hesitate to make Lillibridge part of a deal…but then his value has gone down since the spring.

  108. As far as signing Tex to a long term deal…up here in the DC/Baltimore area, the Orioles are ready to throw the bank at Tex to lure him back to his home state

  109. AAR, I understand. McBride was really inconsistent, and to be honest, a change of scenery was probably the best thing for him(I think he was too comfortable in Atlanta). I just think we sold low on him, especially when he had an option and Fredo doesn’t.

    BTW while I think we did as well as we could on the TP Jr trade the odd are not in our favor, and the reality is that the royals didn’t risk too much.

    This is from Royals Corner:

    Best Case Scenario for Cordier

    Assume he needs to pitch a full season at each level from high A through AAA.

    This timeline shows pretty clearly why Moore was willing to move him.

    First, he will need to be put on the 40 Man roster after the 2008 season, when he will have pitched at best half a year of high A ball with less than 200 professional innings (right now he has 86 total professional innings)

    Second, in the best case scenario with him on the 40 Man, all three of his option years are used up before he tastes a cup of coffee in Kansas City

    Third, he realistically competes for a roster spot in spring training before the 2012 season.

    Drafted 2004
    2004: 11 Games, 34 Innings, 1.70 Whip (Age 18)
    2005: Does not pitch (Age 19)
    2006: 3 games, 16 innings in rookie ball, 0.88 Whip
    7 games, 36 innings in low A ball, 1.12 Whip (Age 20)
    2007: Does not pitch (Age 21)
    2008: ??? Let’s say half a season at High A Ball, pitches 75 innings (Age 22)
    AFTER 2008, HE IS RULE 5 ELIGIBLE. Must be added to 40 Man roster or can be drafted
    2009 Option Year 1: Half a Season at High A, Half a Season at AA (Age 23)
    2010 Option Year 2: Half a Season at AA, Half at AAA (Age 24)
    2011 Option Year 3: Half at AAA, ML at mid season (Age 25)
    2012 Makes big league club at Age 26. No options yet. Sink or swim from here on out!

  110. Once Tex gets a taste of playing for a winner, do you think he’d jump at the chance to join another perennial loser like Baltimore? Maybe so, but let’s not say he’s a goner already (Of course, he’s also not a Brave yet, either…).

  111. by the time tex is looking to re-sign somewhere, we should be able to keep him(if we wanted to). wickman’s 6 mil and hampton’s bajillion dollars will be off the payroll. by 2009, i cant see a huge payroll problem for our team. surely this will be wickman’s last year as our closer.

  112. I saw the same article, where Tex said playing in Baltimore would be “A dream come true.” I just can’t imagine a guy leaving a bad team like Texas, going to Atlanta and winning a couple World Series, then leaving for a loser like the Orioles…

  113. Ethan–I agree with you about McBride and Thanks for the Cordier trajectory.

    I think that Cordier was compared to Lerew–which is hardly exciting, but it does mean he has the chance to be credible pitching prospect. At least the Braves got something for Pena Jr., who was out of options and not destined to play in Atlanta.

  114. Tony Pena has SIX walks this year, in full time play. Why would any MLB pitcher ever throw him a strike?

  115. You know, I do loathe Boras – or is it jealousy? whatever – but if a couple of those bullets are saved for Dane Cook, who am I to complain?

  116. It’s true, Pena is considerably less patient than Frenchy. But his 667 OPS, which sucks, isn’t that much worse than Johnny Damon’s 691 OPS. And Damon makes as much money as a few countries’ GDP.

  117. King Diamond,

    The Orioles fans rank up there with the Cards, Yanks, Red Sox and Cubs. They are loyal and stick by their squad and players. I guess you will see that at Cooperstown this weekend. If you grew up an Orioles fan, they are not pereniel losers. And it really is you dream to play for them. Maybe over the past few years, but this team was right up there with the Yanks in the 90’s. And that bandbox they play in would suit Tex fine. All the talk shows consider him to be the savior of the franchise…

  118. First, Teixera is from Baltimore and grew up an O’s fan. So, it’s not that crazy. Second, given that the Braves have one World Series and are struggling to make the playoffs, that seems like a stretch to talk about him “going to Atlanta and winning a couple World Series.” Third, even if that was true, it wouldn’t at all be unusual for a guy to win a ring and then go to a bad team in order to get paid. That is what guys in the NFL do; win a Super Bowl and then go to Washington for big bucks. Fourth, if you have Boras as your agent, you are pretty much saying that you are going to make them show you the money and are unlikely to give a discount. Otherwise, why hire him? I know Andruw went around him the last time, but he is the exception. (Maybe Maddux was another.) I don’t think you can count on him falling so much in love with the Braves that he gives up the open market. That’s why I am still skeptical that this deal will happen. If it was anyone but Boras, I would say, well, maybe Liberty is increasing payroll and they have a shot at keeping him. I like the idea of Tex at first base (although he is not as good a player as Chipper, a first ballot HOFer if he had stayed healthy)but I’m afraid of what you are giving up for a year and a half. On the other hand, who knows how good Salty actually will be.

    I also think we need to be careful about getting excited or discouraged about a young player based on early returns. As bad as Davies has pitched, I bet there are teams that would jump at him depending on the price. And, Thorman, too. I know he is struggling but it’s hard to believe the Braves were this wrong about him. He seems to be in the same place that LaRoche was at this point in his career. I’m not saying he should be playing now, but don’t assume that this is all there is.

  119. Tony, I agree with you with regard to the fans. There aren’t any better in baseball. But as long as Peter Angelos is the Orioles owner, they are going to be losers. He is arguably the worst owner in baseball.

  120. Tony,

    I agree with your general point about the O’s but you are exaggerating a bit about them being up with the Yankees during the 90s. That was really only 2 years–’96 and ’97. They were mediocre the rest of the decade. Of course, the Yankees stunk in the early ’90s.

  121. If Tex comes to Atlanta and wins 2 World Series, I’ll drive him to Baltimore myself for the 2009 season.

  122. Yea just a little bit Marc…it’s funny with the owners in this area though. Both Angelos and Daniel Synder will pay any amount to get a winner but they always suck…Anyway, I still hope Tex is in ATLANTA on Wednesday or before.

  123. He seems to be in the same place that LaRoche was at this point in his career.

    Nitpicking, but LaRoche was never nearly as bad as Thorman.

  124. Braves14, you obviously didn’t look at Huckleberry’s stats for the first half of this year. They were worse than Thorman’s.

  125. I can’t believe we still have people wanting a Salty for Tex trade. Didn’t last nights game prove anything? We need PITCHING, not more run production.

  126. LaRoche has a .761 OPS and 14 homers now. Not good at all, but it blows Thorman out of the water.

  127. LaRoche and Giles are gone….and I am so thankful for that. No regrets here.

    As far as the Braves needing pitching, they definitely need a lefty out of the bullpen who CAN GET LEFTIES OUT. They also need a big bat and legitimate threat to compliment and protect Chipper. Pujols wasn’t available…

  128. LaRoche started heating up towards the end of the first half and since the allstar break.

  129. Scott Thorman’s VORP on the year: Negative 8.8.

    Adam LaRoche: 4.9

    Adam LaRoche 2004 VORP: 13.4

    The Thorman/LaRoche comparison is not valid anymore.

  130. I actually tried to look up LaRoche’s stats for the 1st half on ESPN but the site was slow.

  131. Landogarner – Exactly what available pitchers do you want that would be worth giving up our prospects for? Why not add Teixeira to the middle of our lineup? It’d be getting the most out of our prospects, and cause quite a headache for opposing managers with two powerful switch hitters 3-4.

  132. “I can’t believe we still have people wanting a Salty for Tex trade. Didn’t last nights game prove anything? We need PITCHING, not more run production.”

    I think 1B is the team’s biggest weakness at the moment. The Braves could have avoided extra innings last night by either not letting the Giants score 4 in the 9th inning, or by scoring one more one at some time earlier in the game. Andruw left 5 on base last night. Franco was 1-5 with 3 LOB. I think there is a good chance that replacing Franco with Tex and moving Andruw down a spot (or two) in the lineup would have meant more runs.

  133. Why are we talking about LaRoche? He is not coming back. It was a great trade for Atlanta….if Gonzo had stayed healthy.

  134. Yes, because renting Tex for one year, we have no hope of resigning him, is a good use of our prospects? Please explain that logic to me because it seems utterly flawed to me. Or maybe I’m the only one.

  135. I brought up LaRoche because someone compared him to Thorman. Nobody suggested to bring him back.

  136. Land,

    Honestly, what the hell are you talking about?

    We need RELIEF PITCHING not necessarily a STARTING PITCHER.

    Tim Hudson was brilliant for 8 2/3 and then tired out. How is that a call that this team is so dire for a starting pitcher?

    it was the bullpen who let us down. Again. Like always. And the reason this Tex deal is either going slow or not happening yet is because it’s almost assured that JS is going to make sure that Jon daniels includes one of his good relievers, particularly, CJ Wilson or Joaqin Benoit.

    Also, Land, we all like Salty but you must have not read my earlier comments.

    Salty is a good offensive player if he was catching…but he won’t be with Brian MCCann. Salty is a sub par offensive player as a first baseman. Honestly, LaRoche, despite all his troubles in the first half, was a protypical power first baseman in the 2nd half. Salty doesn’t have that kind of power.

    He’s simply not nearly as good a hitter right now (and possibly down the road) as Mark Teixeira. It’s not even close. It’s like trying to compare Jo Jo Reyes to say Dan Haren. Maybe reyes will be a good long term starting pitcher, but you don’t hold onto Reyes if you have a chance to stick Haren in the rotation.

    Also, the Braves scored a measly 4 runs last night against Kevin Correia and Matt Morris. That’s not good. Offense is a major issue. Last Sunday night, Jo Jo reyes pitched his proverbial ass off and the Braves managed 2 runs against a no name Cardinal pitcher.

    The evidence, land is overwhelming at this point that offense and relief help are simply more necessary than a starting pitcher. Why is this so hard for you to see? And again, if Salty was destroying major league pitching, I firmly believe that Bobby would have him out there every night, especially since Salty is a switch hitter.

    (and yes, Salty should still be playing over Julio, but that doesn’t change the fact that Salty isn’t the savior in 2007 or 2008 for the Braves, offensively).

    If the Braves can’t score runs on mediocre pitching on bad teams like the Cardinals and the Giants, how do you expect us to score in the Playoffs of Jake Peavy and Chris Young or Brad Penny? By osmosis?

    Finally, Adam LaRoche is far superior to Scott Thorman.

  137. I love everyone’s asumption Teixeira would bat 4th. I could easily see Bobby planting him in the 5th spot behind Druw. We are talking about the same guy that bats Frenchy ahead of KJ and McCann. Cox would rationalize the 5th spot for Teixeira by saying it would help “Druw get going.”

  138. The reasoning in trading Atlants’a top prospects for a big bat is that there are no Starting Pitchers who will have the same impact that Tex will have this year.

    If Johan Santana or, hell, even someone like Aaron Harang were available–it’s a no-brainer: Get the ace. However, when Salty + is the asking price for a league-average innings-eater like Arroyo or Garland, a smart GM takes a different approach.

    Thus, Tex ends up a Brave.

  139. You can’t always have the “build for the future mentality”. Very few prospects live up to their hype. Teixeira is a proven all-star caliber first baseman. It would turn our biggest offensive weakness into our cleanup hitter and give us a chance to win now. I also don’t think 1.5 seasons is a rental, we’d get over 220 games out of him.

  140. Land, we’d get Tex for the rest of this year and next. The window of opportunity with this current team may be closing, as after 2008 we’ll certainly lose Renteria, Cox, JS, Tex(if signed) and possibly more. Who knows how much longer Smoltz can keep it up, as well as Chipper. Prospects are nice, but we have a good nucleus of young talent that’s not going anywhere (francoeur, mccann, james, johnson, etc). Let’s try and win now.

  141. Land,

    Except for the Red Sox and maybe the Tigers, I have a hard time thinking of too many teams in Baseball with five proven starters in their rotation.

    So what is James, Carlyle and Reyes aren’t experienced? Who the eff cares? I can think of many, many heartbreaking post seasons where our “experienced” starters, Smoltz, Maddux and Glavine, ultimately lost out because either they had bad post season starts (well, at least Mad Dog and Glavine) or because the other team simply had a lot more offense.

    Right now, without Davies, I would take our rotation over the Mets.

    Take away the last few bad Davies starts, and I would love to see what our STARTERS ERA has been the last 3-4 weeks. I bet it’s overall pretty damned good.

    And again Land, we all like Salty, but why do you think he’s the next big time superstar in the Majors? We all thought even higher of Betemit and Marte and look at those guys now.

  142. Again, I urge you, Land, to please separate the Starters from the relievers. Night & day difference.

    The starting pitching is fine and as was just said so nicely by King Diamond, you can’t possibly argue that pitchers the calibre ofArroyo or Garland are any better then what we have (or even worse, Livan Hernandez and Jose Contreras…yuck).

    I’m sorry, but give me James, Carlyle & Reyes at 3-4-5 and wildly improved offense with Tex….that’s a far better team.

  143. Wait, why would Cox bat KJ higher in the lineup? It’s not like the guy’s OPB is 394 or anything.

  144. That’s my point. We aren’t going to win anything with the addition of Tex. We are a .500 club right now and Tex is going to win us the division, let alone a WS vs teams like the Redsox, Tigers and Angels?

    Keep dreaming.

  145. If the Braves do get Tex and do not subtract any other salary outside of Andruw, which someone likes to point out will cover raises for Smoltz and Huddy, then this might be some indication of payroll rising next year, or a trade of someone like Renteria.

  146. First of all Land, what drugs are you smoking to think that Mark Teixeira doesn’t improve our offense?

    Have you seen the ESPN report…the Braves currently have the WORST offensive output (and that includes Salty) at first base in all of the Majors.

    How in God’s name does Teixeira not make that better???????????????????

    Also, regarding your point about the Red Sox or Tigers…I point to the 2006 World Series where a mediocre Cardinals team went in against the heavily favored Tigers and beat them.

    A team gets hot, they can win…end of story.

  147. Please point out to me where I said Salty is going to be the next superstar. I’m not advocating we keep him so please stop. I just don’t want to trade him for a anything less than a long term pitching solution, even if it might be a long shot.

  148. Renting JD Drew for 1 year was a damn good move at the time. Marrero even played out of his mind for us and, at the time, I was pretty pissed off at ditching both Marquis and Wainwright. This is similar (although Salty is more highly regarded than those 2 pitchers were).

  149. Alex, reading comprehension is your friend. I didn’t say he wouldn’t help us I said he alone is not going to win us a division or WS title.

    I’m not going to bother responding to you anymore if you are going to take EVERY thing I say out of context.

  150. The Cardinals won the World Series last year.

    People need to wake up and realize that if you’re a contender to make the playoffs, you’re a contender to win the World Series.

    Saltalamacchia for Teixeira? In a heartbeat.

  151. Lando,

    Let’s see the Cardinals won last year with Carpenter(proven ace=Smoltz), Suppan(Hudson), Marquis(James is better), Reyes(Reyes)….I’m probably giving to much slack to Suppan in comparing him to Hudson, but he was lights out last year in the playoffs.

    The key is to have a solid bullpen after your two studs and an office that can score runs.

  152. I would actually much prefer we package Escobar in that deal than Andrus. If we keep Escobar, I really am afraid that that means Edgar is gone at the end of this season, whereas if we send him, he’s here for next year and then Andrus comes up after that. Now if we would play it correctly, Escobar would become our roving backup infielder (a la Wilson Betemit) but I really think they want to start Escobar, which is a mistake in my opinion, at least until Edgar’s contract is up…then we can talk about it.

    As far as trades go, there is no way that we are going to be able to make a trade for someone who has more than 2-3 years left on his contract. I’m not sure where all this “hold Salty to trade for a long-term solution” think is coming from. You don’t get long-term solutions in trades unless you sign them to a contract extension immediately, which is pretty rare unless they have some affinity for your team coming in (e.g. Tim Hudson).

    And why on Earth would Reyes be a dealbreaker in any deal for Texeira? Are you insane? It’s not like he’s a future Cy Young winner or anything. He had one good start and now we’re assuming that he’s an established member of our rotation? He and Davies are interchangeable, as far as I’m concerned. I agreed with sending Davies down and keeping Reyes up when the choice was one or the other recently, but that was because in their previous starts, Davies didn’t record a freaking out and Reyes did. But if we trade Reyes and have to call Davies back up, it won’t be a big deal or anything. The way Carlyle and James are pitching, we’re talking about the fifth spot in the rotation, essentially. And we could get a starter from Texas in return anyway, which would really make it moot.

    It seems like everyone here is now willing to trade Salty but is finding little hangups. If you’ve gotten over the hump of being willing to trade Salty, why are the little hangups bothering you now?

  153. I really should start reloading the page more so that my posts don’t show up 15 posts later than intended and I look like a retard.

  154. Saltalamacchia’s offensive value is mostly tied up in him being a catcher. As a catcher, his offense is star potential. As a first baseman, he’s likely league average, possibly not even that this year.

    The argument for Saltalamacchia as a first baseman is because he’s better than the other options we have right now at that position.

    The Braves haven’t made him the everyday first baseman, so he’s all but gone, likely for Teixiera.

  155. I was kidding about the whole “Winning teo World Series titles in two years” thing–I’m not saying adding Tex means the Braves are the best team in baseball; it’s wishful thinking….

    However, Tex will solidify this lineup in a gargantuan way. Replace the 1B black hole of production with a .900 OPS and all of a sudden there is no weak link in the lineup.

    The Braves may not have the pitchers to be favored in a playoff series over some other NL rotations, but this offense (With Tex) beats any other offense the NL can field.

  156. Hypothetical question since the issues seems to be about whether you trade Salty for a 1B or SP. Which of the following would you do today if you were JS?

    a) Salty for Ian Snell

    b) Salty for Teixeira

    *Disclaimer – These “straight-up” trades may or may not be realistic, however, they’re for discussion purposes only.

  157. I don’t know how many more cheap years Snell has, but I lean towards Snell. I like James/Reyes/Carlyle, but I just don’t trust them enough yet. But then again, Snell isn’t a sure thing. Look at Oliver Perez and Zach Duke.

    I go for Tex and go for it all this year and in 2008.

  158. Salty for Tex.

    Snell is a solid pitcher and I’d love to see the Braves get him, but Tex is an impact player every day of the season. Snell may win a game once a week. It’s a simple credo: Hitters hit. Tex will give the Braves much more value than Snell, even if only for 1 1/2 years.

    That said, once Tex is in the fold and Salty is a Ranger, maybe Littlefield will be willing to take whatever the Rangers leave on the table…

  159. Uh…everyone agrees? I don’t and judging from many of the posts, I’m guessing neither do a lot of people.

  160. This year (smaller sample only)-Texiera OPS at home .942; on the road, .940. Let’s go get him.

  161. when you’re saying “league average” player like it’s a bad thing, remember that by definition half the players in baseball are below “league average”.

  162. Meaning, Teixiera is top of the league right now. Salty might become league average.

  163. If Salty could get us either Snell or Tex, I’d go with Snell, because we’d control him for 3-4 years, extremely cheaply. Tex is a hell of a ballplayer, but he’s gone in a year and a half, and he ain’t cheap neither.

  164. Here’s the problem: I think everyone’s bought in a little bit too much to the “build for the future” line of thinking. If we were building for the future, the answer is Snell. But I don’t think we are. We’re near the end of the line with our manager, our GM, our franchise player and our ace pitcher. Why would we build for the future? We should be trying to win now, and Texeira for a year and a half will allow us to do that. When you’re trying to win now, renting a player of his caliber for that long is a perfect move. Plus, it would allow us to not have to sign Mike Cameron over the offseason, which no one seems to be too excited about, as he would replace Andruw’s offense. When you’re always playing for the future, you never get there. Ask the Reds and the Pirates and any number of other teams.

  165. The way the Braves see it, trading Salty for Snell doesn’t really solve the problem at first.

    Snell’s a fine pitcher, but the rotation isn’t really the problem anymore.

  166. Thanks Nick. Land seems to be talking to himself.

    Land, it honestly doesn’t matter to me how good you think Salty will or won’t be–that wasn’t really the point. The point is he’s not doing much for us and he will never be a great offensive FIRST BASEMAN.

    Mark Teixeira is an all star calibre player on the level of Chipper and Edgar. Also, you claimed earlier that we have Tex for a year–that’s false. We have him the 2nd half of this year and in 2008 so Tex, at minimum, helps the Braves post season chances in 2 years.

    And Tony’s comparison of last year’s Cardinal rotation with the current Braves rotation was dead on. And guess what else the Cardinals had? OFFENSE AT FIRST BASE.

    Now I am not saying Tex is as good as Pujols, but it’s a lot closer to Pujols then the current clusterfuck of Julio, Salty, Thorman and God help us, Woodward.

    I don’t understand something…you hated LaRoche (I used to as well but came around after seeing the 2nd half last year) but you are willing to put up with the current 4 headed shit monster occupying first base as of right now?

    Seriously…what has Salty done so amazingly (other than marry a smokin’ hot Milf) to iether keep him or bypass Teixeira for a mediocre starting pitcher like Arroyo, Contreras, Livan or Matt Morris. That’s what the Braves will get.

    Plus, I like Ian Snell a lot, and if Teixeira wasn’t on the table, I would (at this point) support Salty for Snell.

    But this team (and Land, you keep ignoring this part of it) has barely been able to score off bad Giants and Cardinals pitchers.

    Again, without an extra big bat in the lineup like Tex, how much will be scoring in say a short series where we might have to face Chris Young & Jake Peavy…TWICE?

    Think about that.

  167. Nick at #197 – that was dead on perfection. I am 110% with that line of thinking.

    Yes, you can pretty much guarantee that Chipper, Smoltz, Cox and JS leave together at the end of the next season. This is possibly the last 2 years for a period of time where we have a legit shot to win the NL and get to the world series.

    Mark Teixeira is the correct answer.

  168. I don’t agree that Snell would be ‘building for the future.” At least, not solely. He’s already a good pitcher, productive at the major league level (though he’s showing some concerning signs of wear this month). Pitching, according to the current market, is more valuable than hitting. That’s why a guy like Barry Zito could sign, let along imagine signing, such a contract. If the club is serious about contending they’re gonna need some help pitching, for I wouldn’t trust Chuck James and this bullpen in the playoffs. I think adding Snell would be smarter economically, plus it would as big an upgrade for right now.

  169. Adam, you make good points. Either way, trading Salty at this point for either Snell or Tex will improve the team.

  170. When you’re always playing for the future, you never get there. Ask the Reds and the Pirates and any number of other teams.

    This is silly of course. The Indians built that dominant team in the 90s through youth and when it ran out of gas, they scraped everybody, had some sucky years with some young guys and now they are back in it. The Brewers’ plan for the future is finally coming together.

    The Reds and Pirates don’t always suck because the ‘play for the future’ they always suck because they have lousy ownership and GMs who don’t know what the hell they are doing.

    At some point we will have to suffer through some rebuilding seasons but those will be after JS, Bobby, Smoltz, Andruw, and Chipper are gone.

  171. I hate when things get heated around here and I’m not around.

    First of all, no team ever finished a season and said, “Well we finished 4th in the division, but have you seen our minor league prospects?” You trade potential for all-stars every time of every day that you can. I like Salty a ton, but to borrow from ESPN I have to ask who is more NOW?

    Jarrod Salalamachia or Mark Teixeria

    Is this really a question? If we were the Royals, then Salty is kept but we are the friggin Braves. We don’t rebuild, we try to win WS titles.

  172. I would also add that the Braves are 4th in the NL and 10th in MLB in runs scored. It’s not that I think they are a great team offensively – I don’t. And I do think 1st base is a black hole. I guess I just favor pitching, which, in the end, is what the question is all about.

  173. Adam M-

    Operative words right there, you said it, “10th in the NL offensively”. And let me add last in the Majors at first base.

    Yes, in a perfect world, we could get Snell and Tex but if I had to choose, I choose the All Star, slugging first baseman who would help us score more then a measly 2 runs off a bad Cardinals or Giants starter.

  174. Hey, I agree. The Braves are maddening. They’ll score 14 runs and then 2, which looks good averaged out but means they’ve only won 1 of the 2 games. It sucks. It doesn’t matter, though, because Tex is on the table and Snell probably isn’t. Just a hypothetical.

  175. Josh, I like you, which is why I’m slapping you in the face right now for saying “who’s now.”

    Friends don’t let friends say “who’s now.”

  176. I would like to add that Chuck James isn’t exactly chopped liver. He’s got a 117 ERA+.

    Our bullpen lately is another story though. I think we’d probably get a reliever in the the Teixiera deal.

  177. I’d go with Snell. I stick with what i said this morning. If Salty is going to be traded, it should be for a legit starter who take us into the next decade.

    Even if it means keeping Salty until the off season, wait until he can land a pitcher.

    Matt Diaz and Salty handle 1st base. Thor takes over for Frank Fultz when he steps down.

  178. See this is why the Braves have only 1 World Series ring…We need Tex bat in the line-up. If you think Franco or Salty will suffice you are fooling yourself. If we can get a legitimate stud we have to take it. Why get Snell, to watch him lose to El Duque 3 to 1 when we have Carlye and James who can do that. You can pound your way to a championship, especially when you have two aces, a solid bullpen and an office that can score runs. We need a left in the bullpen for Utley, Howard, Delgado, etc. down the stretch.

  179. JoshQ-

    I like you and didn’t want to say anything but AAR is right…no more “Who’s Now?” references.

    Everytime I see Stu-YAH Scott talking about it, I find my brain taking a mental swing at his lazy eye.

  180. I guess a question to ask is if you guys want the Braves to win this year or try again next year. There are no pitchers worth giving up Salty for at this point. This is why the Tex deal makes so much sense. I too believe we’ll get a reliever in any deal for Tex. I prefer to win this season and worry about next season in the offseason.

  181. To me, the issue with James is that he just doesn’t work that many innings, and with this pen, that’s a problem. I think he averages under 6 innings a start. So if the Braves address the pen somehow, I’ll feel a lot better about James.

  182. This will now become a “Who’s Now” free zone.
    Maybe it should be “Who’s Now delenda est.”

  183. Someone a while back posted all of the starting pitchers who are worth giving up an elite Salty-type prospect for. Look at the list–none of those guys are available now and none of those guys are going to be available (Via trade) this offseason, either.

    Right now, Salty’s value is as high as it could possibly be. If he is not traded and is sent back to the minors and has a bad season like last year, JS has absolutely blown it. If he gets sent down and rakes–great–he’s still not going to land the Braves an ace pitcher because GM’s are just note trading them.

    Salty and others for Tex–today, if at all possible.

  184. Look, you always need offense & pitching to win, nuff said.

    But only 2 teams in Baseball, the Tigers and Red Sox, have more than 3 proven starters.

    Have we all forgotten how many post seasons we lost with the big aces back in the day because we couldn’t score with a mediocre offense?

    And though you can’t “pound your way” to a championship, this isn’t the UFC, you need a competent offense that can at least bury the bad pitchers.

    The Braves are being currently “shut down” by the likes of Kevin Correia and Brad Thomspon. That’s embarrasing.

    Of course, it would help matters if Andruw was dropped in the order.

  185. King-

    Myself and someone else posted that list yesterday. They were all aces.

    Salty isn’t even as revered on here as Marte was. That’s all I am saying. People need to stop falling in love with every prospect.

    Again, with McCann not going anywhere, Salty isn’t going to help us at catcher.

  186. Trade High! That is the number one rule in trading assets. JS is no dummy and that is why Salty will be traded now and not later, IMO.

  187. If it were an option, I would trade Salty for Snell over Teixeira. Impact young pitchers are harder to come by that first basemen.

    Plus, once you did that, honestly, how hard would it be to pick up a Scott Hatteburg (who’s OPS is .873). Teixeira is at .941, which is better, but it seems obvious, at least to me, that Hatteburg+Snell is better than Teixeira and his 12mm salary both this year and next.

  188. Jim Callis answered some Braves questions in his chat on ESPN.com. He likes Thomas Hanson, but is not so high on Andrus.

  189. Amen with the stop falling in love with every prospect thing, Alex. When we have people on here not wanting to do the Teixeira deal because it might include Jo-Jo freaking Reyes, perhaps it’s getting a little ridiculous.

  190. Hatteberg is 37 and has a career OPS+ of 101. I wouldn’t expect him to keep up his current level of production.

    I was going to say Thorman/Franco could just as likely hit as well as him from here out, but sheesh, those guys have been bad.

  191. i think the only thing that we all agree on is that we would take a ham sandwich for chris woodward…even if it was on wheat bread.

  192. What is the difference between Snell and James? Hatteburg is 40 years old and he does nothing for this office. What is the fascination with Snell? His stats are not that impressive, he’s another small pitcher…I don’t get it. I would take a Tex right now alone with bullpen help. We are on here trying to project how good a guy is, when we possibly have a proven commodity. Silly…

  193. Reyes is a B, B- prospect, exactly the sort of player you trade when his value is up… But he’s also the team’s current fifth starter. I don’t see how they can afford to include him in a trade in which they don’t get a pitcher back. Davies obviously isn’t the answer, and the Vulture is probably the team’s second-best reliever at the moment.

  194. Could the Braves absorb Konerko’s contract? Reports are the Angels have some interest in Konerko. Maybe we could give up less and grab him. I’m liking Teixeira more and more, though.

  195. Exactly right, Mac. I have no problem trading Reyes except that it would most likely cause JS to bring Davies back up. That cannot be allowed to happen.

  196. Tony, are you typing on an Iphone? What every input device you are using, please tell it that office is not offense. :)
    Also, it is nice to see you on the side of the majority today. I’m assuming you are an independant. :)

  197. Mac, This is why the Braves get Millwood in the Tex deal. Reyes goes to Texas and Davies stays in AAA. Millwood becomes the #3 starter…

  198. I think we need to give Will Startup or someone else who hasn’t yet embarrassed himself, a chance before we give the 5th spot back to Davies or Cormier, if we trade Reyes. Or maybe the Rangers will give us back Millwood.

    Nick…thanks for bringing logic to the table. It’s rather refreshing.

    Holding onto young players who may or may not be solid, and bypassing all star level first basemen in return, it hurts my head. And heart. Reyes? So what. Salty? So what. These guys are a dime a dozen…and Salty only has value to the Braves IF HE WAS CATCHING. He’s not going to catch ahead of Brian McCann.

    Yes, sell high. And again, I don’t undertstand how so many of you can diminish Tex helping us over 2 seasons, not just 1. That’s hard to get in today’s current Baseball system. If it was JUST the rest of 2007, sure, I see the other side…but getting an all star calibre first baseman with a terrific OPS for 2 seasons (essentially), is a slam dunk.

    If the Braves, for the sake of argument, were to win the Natiobnal League this year and next year, will everyone still be whining that we didn’t trade Salty for Snell?

  199. Snell is young, under control for multiple years, 11th in the league in IP (therefore definitely not C. James), and averages pretty close to a strikeout an inning.

    I’m not saying it has to be Hatteburg; I’m just saying it is a lot easier to find a 1st baseman that would improve the position for the Braves over a pitcher that could do the same. Plus, if you took Snell you could do both.

    This does not even take into account the financial aspect, which also leans towards Snell.

    Overall, there is always a premium on pitching, and if feasible, that is where the priority should be as well.

  200. Wait, who’s arguing that the Braves shouldn’t trade Salty? I would trade him for Tex or Snell. I completely agree that you need to sell high, which is what JS often does with many of his prospects. My guess is that even if the Braves don’t win the pennant this year and/or next, folks here won’t be whining about Snell.

  201. Ethan, You have a good point. I endorse the idea of Salty/Snell or Gorzelanny if the Braves should lose out to another team in the Teixeira sweepstakes. However, if Tex is in play, he’s the best target.

  202. I hear what you all are saying about Davies, but honestly, if we have to put Davies back in the rotation in order to get Tex, I’d do it. Plus, as Alex says, we could try calling someone else up or sign somebody off waivers and give them a try or any number of things. The point is that you can’t hold up this deal over Jo-Jo Reyes. You do the deal and then figure out what to do with your fifth spot in the rotation.

  203. Is there any reason we haven’t started calling Saltalamacchia by something other than Salty?

    I vote for MACH-18

  204. Will Carroll of Baseball Prospectus says the Braves are interested in Matt Morris again…

  205. Why not trade Salty for Tex right now for one good run at this thing and then look to trade Tex in the offseason for a frontline starter. Maybe the Orioles would give us Bedard, I can hope right?

  206. Morris has been awful in his last 3 starts, since the all-star break, and about as bad, before that. He had a decent E.R.A. that his peripheral stats did not support. I just don’t think we need or want him, unless it is virtually for free, and we can cut him next year, with no salary consequences.

  207. Maybe thats to throw off the Mets and make them overpay for a starter like Morris. Reyes and Carlyle are just as good as him right now and their about a combined 8.5 million less

  208. Though, I cannot imagine that this deal is being held up about whether to include Reyes or not.

    I think the issue is that the Braves would want a relief pitcher back from the Rangers, and the Rangers would then want a 3rd player.

  209. I’m not interested in discussing Morris, either, but Carroll is pretty reliable.

    If Atlanta gets him, let’s debate merits then. For now, let’s just agree that we don’t want him to be a Brave, okay?

  210. The Rangers’ left-handed relievers are Mahay and Wilson. Wilson is much better, younger, and cheaper.

  211. While Morris wouldn’t be my number one choice either (although I would probably do a deal for him if it was cheap), to his credit, he his defense is so geriatric that he probably loses at least two to three outs per game that he otherwise would have. That was certianly the case last night. But seriously, I’d take him if we didn’t have to give up much.

  212. Holy crap, I didn’t realize Cormier was down to a 3.60 ERA at Richmond. I bet he replaces Reyes if he gets traded.

  213. Lost in the Tex shuffle is that IF you don’t re-sign him after 2008, then in 2009 you get 2 extra sandwich round picks. Those picks should replace Salty and the low end throw in. Then the high end throw in gets you C. J. Wilson, our lefty reliever. Please get ‘er done!

  214. Schuerholz’s plan:

    Saltalamacchia and prospects (including Jo-Jo Reyes) for Teixeira and a left-hander relief pitchers.

    Whoever for Matt Morris to be the new starter, replacing Reyes.

    I think that is what he’s doing. That’s a lot of payroll he’s adding, Liberty Media must be freeing it up for him.

    I can live with Smoltz, Hudson, James, Morris and Carlyle.

  215. Hopefully, most of you figured out I was kidding :-)

    By the way, I hear Mark Redman has been mowing down some 6th graders in his native Kansas and has his ERA down to about 4 something.

    We can pick him back up!

  216. If we have to find a new 5th starter, then it’ll will have to come from outside the organization. Haven’t we already been through a season long tryout for that spot w/ the guys we have?

  217. Not anymore. The Rangers’ AAA team released Redman. I think he’s back to throwing in his basement.

  218. Actually, “Redman leaves RedHawks: Veteran pitcher Mark Redman has opted out of his contract at Oklahoma. Redman made nine starts for the RedHawks and was 2-4 with a 5.34 ERA. There was almost no chance of him being called up to the Major Leagues.”

    That last line is great!

  219. Wouldn’t Pittsburgh hang onto Snell for all of the same reasons that we’d want to have him?

    Where have y’all seen that he’s available? Or are we just making wish lists? just curious.

  220. I don’t think the Braves are necessarily at the end of the string. It’s not like they are the 1987 Tigers who had one shot at winning before falling apart. The Braves still have a lot of good pieces, although obviously they don’t have much time left with Smoltz.

    Having said that, holding onto prospects in hopes that they will all be great doesn’t necessarily make sense. One reason you develop a farm system is to make trades. Salty may end up being a superstar (I think it’s too soon to assume that his offense wouldn’t be sufficient at first base) or he may be a bust. Who knows? The classic example, of course, is Marte; it they had kept him and didn’t have Renteria, where the hell would the Brave be now?

    But it’s pretty clear to me that Salty isn’t the answer this year. He is a good young player that still needs seasoning. If the Braves are going to seriously contend, they need a bat (and they also need starters and relievers, but you can’t get everything). I think one thing people forget is that a better offense can help the pitching, especially the young pitchers, by taking pressure off them. More importantly, it would be one thing if you were talking about Salty for Aaron Harang, but the pitchers that seem to be on the table aren’t anywhere near that caliber. There are two ways to go here; try to improve the pitching and live with the black hole at first or improve the offense and hope the pitching holds up. If Teixera is actually available, he is a better player than any of the pitchers on the board. (And, let’s forget this Harang stuff; he isn’t going anywhere.) I would rather go for the offense and hope that you can pound your way to some more victories. JS’ modus operandi is to build the team around pitching but that hasn’t worked so well in recent years and it just may not be realistic. And I’m not sure Ian Snell would be the answer anyway.

    The other issue is the effect on the long term. If you are only thinking about the future, then obviously Snell would be a better solution because he would be here and be cheaper. But I don’t think the Braves can win this year without improving the offense. IMO, the offensive rankings are irrelevant–total runs is sort of meaningless when you have a team that scores 10, 2, 14, 2, 4, and 4. I have never thought this is a good offensive team and the last two games just confirm that.

  221. Three prospects? Who could they be talking about? I get Salty, and I hope one’s Escobar, because I don’t really give a flip about him. Maybe the other one could be Dan Smith?

  222. Reading that, the Braves don’t want to part with Reyes, whom they’re using in the rotation, and the Rangers want him. Or something similar. The basic bones, Saltalamacchia for Teixeira, have been agreed upon. In such a situation, the deal is more likely than not unless someone else comes in with a monster offer.

  223. If we were willing to send Carlyle back to Richmond earlier in the year to let the terrible Cormier pitch, seems to me we would be willing to throw Reyes on the pile here.

  224. If we really want Reyes, send them Startup or something. Shouldn’t be too hard to figure out.

  225. I just hope if reyes does go, that Startup gets a shot in the rotation, rather than Cormier or Davies again. Enough with bad pitchers.

    But there absolutely has to be a reliever in the deal or at least Millwood. The Braves need to add another arm, at least to the bullpen.

  226. Do the Red Sox have a package of prospects that they could put together that would constitute a monster offer while we’re twiddling our thumbs over Reyes, or is that not very likely?

  227. Yeah, that’s true. The holdup could just as easily be over a reliever for us as it is Reyes.

  228. Startup is a relief pitcher. Looks like the last time he started a game was at UGA when he started 4 of 25 games.

  229. David O’Brien says the Braves are trying everything in their power to get the Rangers’ C.J. Wilson, but the Rangers won’t do it. But it sounds like, as Mac said, they’re done talking about Teixeira. They’ve agreed to that part.

  230. 285 – From reports it appears that the rumored Red Sox offer was Ellsbury and Lester.

  231. If it is Salty, Andrus and an arm (say Parr or Harrison instead of Reyes) for Texiera, then we will certainly be giving up a lot for a one and a half year player.

    Arguably Salty and Andrus are our top two prospects and so it reminds me a bit of trading for Len Barker in 1983, who basically had one solid year with the Braves. Obviously, the situation is not strictly parallel, but if we have to give up those players then the Braves ought to get a reliever in return….

  232. So they are saying Texas wants three of our prospects just for Tex?

    If so I would be really dissapointed in J.S.
    I could have lived with Salty for Tex but anything more on our part is not worth it.

  233. I think there were also reports about throwing in Lowell, as Youkilis would move over to 3rd with Tex coming in.

  234. There’s a couple of other reasons to like Teix, as if there weren’t enough already – NL pitching is not quite where the AL is, which should improve his numbers. Second, his away stats are a bit depressed by his division rivals playing in pitcher’s parks, again leaving a potential improvement (although NL East parks aren’t much better).

  235. Are three prospects really worth Tex? I’m having a really hard time with this. If it is Andrus in the deal, that tells me that Escobar is our starting shortstop of the future.

    oh joy.

  236. I would trade Lillibridge, Salty and a young arm (not Reyes), but Andrus is too valuable…

  237. why is it so set that we only get 1 1/2 years of tex? think about all the payroll we will be dropping by the 2009 year. that’s a long way away. i might be wrong in my calculations but wickman, edgar, and hampton free up a ton of dough, not to mention andruw’s mighty salary out of the way. who knows, by then smoltz and hudson might be done with the braves. 1 1/2 of a year is a long-ass time.

  238. Yes. We have no idea what the hell Andrus is gonna be like. I would give up just about any prospect at that level. And the third prospect will be somebody who won’t hurt too badly. Yes it’s worth it. Don’t hoard prospects. Do the damn deal!

  239. I guess I’m typing office b/c I’m actually doing some work at the OFFICE for a change.

    But someone said we can always get a 1st Baseman…really? Like Rico Brogna, Robert Fick, yep those types will definitely help us out. As I stated before, Matt Morris is not worth it…the lefthanders in the East will light him up.

    Get Tex, lefty for the bullpen and maybe another hard throwing righty and we will be ok.

    Good luck in Tx, Salty and whoever else the Braves throw in the deal.

  240. Ryan C – If Tex was with anyone but Boras, I think we would be talking longer term. However, Boras is in the picture and it appears that Baltimore may be willing to throw a lot of money in his direction.

  241. It’s a good thing some of you aren’t our G.M.
    We wouldn’t have any farm system to speak of…

  242. And all of a sudden Kala Ka’aihue is chopped liver? HE can be the first baseman if Tex leaves Atlanta, if he is traded here.

  243. I’m still suspicious that the Red Sawx will do something dastardly and steal Tex at the last minute. I don’t trust them.

  244. Andrus may not pan out–but even if he doesn’t, he should command high value (assuming that he does not get injured or start a dog fight league) as a prospect for several years. In fact, his value may go up even further….

  245. I wouldn’t be dissappointed with Konerko and Garland. Teixeira is better than Konerko, but you would be giving up one less prospect for the White Sox deal and you would be getting a pitcher in return (albeit one with health questions). So those two deals seem about even to me. If Garland isn’t injured, maybe the White Sox one would even be slightly better, but it’s pretty close.

  246. Marc-

    You shouldn’t. Red Sox nation is pretty hateable and they would totally do anything to steal from anyone.

    I can’t think of a team that needs another bat LESS then Boston, except maybe Detroit.

  247. Or Andrus gets traded in five years for a guy with a drug problem and a reliever who will be a free agent and can’t be offered arbitration.

    Nah, that would never happen.

  248. We have one position player on our team, Lando, that didn’t come up in our farm system. One. Can it about the farm system. We’ve done more than enough of that. You have to go get somebody occasionally. Plus, in answer to your 3-4 years vs. 1.5, I give you unproven young pitcher vs. All-Star first baseman.

  249. Yeah, I’m doubting the Braves get Teixeira the longer this drags on. The more desperate a team like the Yankees or Red Sox get, the more likely they are to trade a Phillip Hughes or a Clay Buckholz (or however you spell it).

    I don’t know why the Dodgers want Teixeira. What does Loney have to do?

  250. Like I said Nick, good thing some of YOU aren’t our G.M.

    All of a sudden Snell is unproven?

  251. Mac-

    What do you think is reasonable for this deal? Is Salty, Andrus and an arm too much?

    That just seems like an awful lot to give up for a team that has Buddy Carlyle in its rotation.

  252. Amen, Nick.

    JS will sit on his hands and Julio Franco will be hitting .200 the rest of the year as Bobby’s favorite first baseman.

    Oh yes, watch out Mets…we’re gonna get you with the 48 yr. old guy you just cut.

  253. Lester and Ellsbury is pretty steep for Teixeira. I hope Andrus isn’t involved in the trade, but if that’s what the Red Sox were offerring, then I think Andrus will be gone, unfortunately. CJ Wilson would lessen the sting of the king’s departure.

    I’ve been in love with Andrus ever since we signed him.

  254. I am not Andrus’ biggest fan–but if we give up Salty and Andrus I think that we need to get more than a player (no matter how talented) that will be gone after 2008. Salty or Andrus and two good prospects would be different….

  255. It’s also possible Theo is dangling that fake package out there to get the Braves to drive their price up.

    Again, I don’t really see why the Dodgers or the Red Sox need Tex. The Sox are getting plenty of offense from Youkilis and Lowell and yes, who does James Loney have to kill to get respect?

  256. I would still go with Tex. Konerko is older and is not having a particularly good year and he’s not as good as Tex anyway, Garland is pretty good but may have a bad arm. I think if you trade Salty, get the best player out there. A lot can happen in a year and a half.

  257. What good would it do the Red Sox if the Braves had to trade more than they wanted? That makes no sense. We are in different leagues.

  258. Snell has been with Pittsburgh, which does explain his crappy record, but it does not mean that he will be able to handle a pennant race. Plus, this is the first year that he’s really been great, so yeah, I’d call that unproven when compared to an All-Star freaking first baseman. I grow tired of this.

    This will be my last post arguing about Teixeira over Snell with you. You obviously disagree with me (and Alex and whoever else). That’s fine. Let’s move on, shall we?

  259. Why do the Red Sox want Tex? Youklis and Lowell are both pretty good.

    And we don’t know that JS is sitting on his hands afraid to pull the trigger. I think Mac is right that they are just trying to agree on the addditional prospects.

  260. Nick, all I here when you talk is “blah blah blah, I’m not listening, blah blah blah”

    So if you wan’t to drop it that’s great.

  261. If we have to give up three players for just Tex, I say no. As much as we may need the bat, we don’t need it THAT badly and as the second article Mac posted suggests, there are other deals out there, if perhaps not as great. I’d take Garland AND Konerko for Salty and prospects. But it still doesn’t address the teams greatest need – another healthy and stable reliever.

    Still and all, I hold out hope that JS gets creative and can wiggle Tex and a reliever from Texas.

  262. Obviously the Red Sox are the source of pure evil in this world. Their goal is to destroy every other organization in baseball one at a time until they’re the only one left. Then they’ll never have to go 80 years without winning the World Series again!!! HA HA HA HA HA HA HA!!!!!!

    Seriously though, I agree. It doesn’t make much sense unless Epstein’s just a vindictive prick.

  263. Whats Konerko’s contract look like. Keep in mind that after the 08 season Hampton is off of our books. So its very likely we could get Tex to sign a contract for say a 3-4 yr deal

  264. Garland and Konerko….doesn’t do anything for me. Of course you trade prospects for sure things…prospects are just that, prospects. Of course you don’t trade a Chipper or a Andruw, but you do trade prospects. That’s why you have a scouting department.

  265. If Epstein’s worried about any team but the Yankees, I’d be surprised. And if he’s driving up the price, it’s to drive it up for the Yankees, who last I checked were playing Doug Eyechart at first base.

  266. Yes, Land, I can’t dignify responding to you anymore after your annoying post aimed at Nick.

    As for WHY the Red Sox would dangle a fake deal, it’s gamesmanship with an opponent GM (like a JS) when you are competing for the same player, like Tex.

    It’s also possible Theo is more interested in say the Konerko package so he’s making sure to drive the Braves price up on Tex, to make sure that’s one less team competing with the White Sox deal.

    A lot of what goes on in Baseball is gamesmanship, and JS has been a master himself.

    But to answer an earlier comparison, I would absolutely take Tex over Konerko.

  267. If the Red Sox are trying to drive up the price it’s because they think the Yankees are involved. It actually makes a lot of sense.

  268. By the way – anyone listen to 680 the FAN here in Atlanta? Have they discussed anything but Vick and the Falcons this week? It’s like MLB just stopped existing. Granted, the Vick story is big, but we are in the middle of a baseball season (not football) and the trading deadline is less than a week away. In fact, the hometown team is heavily involved in rumors and to top it off, they are currently in the midst of a four game series vs. Barry Bonds…who just might break the all time home run record. And yet, all I have heard this week is Vick, Vick, Vick, Falcons, Falcons, Falcons, Blank, Blank, Blankety-Blank.

    Am I just terribly unlucky and catching them when they change the subject or have they just given up talking about baseball anymore? I like Buck and Kincaid for the most part, but come on…

  269. If Epstein doesn’t want the Yankees to get Tex, then he should start some rumors about how he’s desperate to trade for the great young pitcher Kyle Davies, so the Rangers will feel like they are getting a good deal when they ask for him and Salty.

  270. As for Epstein…I would imagine he would rather see Texas on the losing end of any deal given the fact the Red Sox play Texas more than they play the Braves (not by much, but still.)

  271. What doesn’t make any sense to me is why the Red Sox are doing this in the first place. Do they really want to deke the Yankees into giving up too much for Tex and the Braves are just a pawn in all of this?

  272. Last from O’Brien:

    Just talked to someone who told me six teams still involved in Teixeira pursuit, including Yankees.

    Also told Rangers really, really want to keep Wilson.

  273. Coz, welcome to the home of SEC football and anything else that has to do with football. Jox sports here in Birmingham hasnt had anything to talk about, besides football, since May. Its kind of frustrating and it gets old

  274. No, you’re right. I’ve just resolved myself to the fact that whenever I listen to sports talk radio, I’m gonna here people talking about football and whenever I watch ESPN unless the show title specifically states otherwise, I’m gonna be hearing about football. I guess that’s just gonna be how it is.

    On a side note, David Stern must be thanking his lucky stars that his referee point-shaving/mafia thing came out this week. This is potentially the most damaging scandal in all of sports that I can remember and it’s taking a back seat to Michael Vick. Stern should really offer to pay Vick’s court costs or something for the amount of money and headache he’s saved the NBA this week.

  275. The Yanks don’t have much to give up, outside of Chamberlain and Hughes, and they won’t give up either.

    The only reason Epstein would leak something is because he is still upset about Marte for Renteria and Cash.

  276. Hate King,

    *laughs* Oh, yes. But he traded Marte to Cleveland for Coco Crisp. Clearly, he got the most out of that deal.

  277. Also from O’Brien

    Stay tuned. This could happen. Could happen soon. Just don’t know. But when I don’t get callbacks from certain people in timely fashion, it’s usually an indication the Braves are heavily involved in talks.

  278. Dang right they should be involved in talks. Probably trying to convince them not to take Reyes and take someone else instead.

  279. Yes, Teixeira is from the Maryland area, but he played his college ball at GaTech.

  280. And Nick – you make a good point. The Vick story is about a players activities outside of the game. It hurts the Falcons, but not really the sport. The ref story impacts the game of basketball itself and the integrity of the game. Any student of baseball history must know the seriousness of that.

  281. FWIW, Wikipedia reporting Teixeira to Braves for Saltalamacchia and PTBNL, per Teixeira page.

  282. Whatever helps you sleep at night Alex. I almost stopped responding to you after you decided to go all right wing on me and take every post out of context for your own purposes. So no big loss.

  283. Lando-

    Right wing on you? What the bloody blue hell are you talking about? Remember…we don’t do politics in here.

    Mac-

    Can you change that little rangers hat to a Braves hat on Tex?

  284. In 2005, Teixeira became the third switch-hitter in MLB history, after Eddie Murray and Chipper Jones, to hit at least 20 home runs in each of his first three seasons. He also became just the fifth player in Major League history to hit at least 100 home runs in his first three seasons joining Hall of Famers Joe DiMaggio, Ralph Kiner, and Eddie Matthews as well as another current first base star, Albert Pujols. His 2005 total of 144 RBIs is a Major League record for a switch hitter.

    Cool.

  285. Uh, yeah, they got the Benoit thing a bit too right. And the Wiki poster on the Benoit thing was listed as being in the Stamford, Conn. area…the home of the WWE.

    I wouldn’t put it past Vince McMahon for him and his chronies to have been involved.

    That being said, steroids is minor in Baseball compared to the insane amount of deaths it’s caused in wrestling.

    Speaking of wrestling, I have zero interest in following it anymore, but for those who are interested or at least watched it in your childhood, I actually saw Road Warrior Animal at my hotel in Boston Sunday night.

    He’s enormous and was decked out in Ohio State clothing (as many know, his kid is Jim Larinitis Jr.).

  286. Yeah, isn’t Wickman still wearing an Indians’ cap on the BravesJournal “Wickmania” banner?

  287. Speaking of wrestlers…

    Once on my 10th birthday in 1973, my mom loaded up the car with my friends & drove from Columbus to Atlanta for a Braves-Pirates game. (An 8-7 Braves win that included a Davey Johnson grand slam.)

    This was before we had the I-185 interstate connection from Columbus to LaGrange, so we had to drive through these podunk towns, and on a 2-lane state highway in Waverly Hall or somewhere, we looked at the car passing us and in the car it was…

    Mr. Wrestling #1 and Mr. Wrestling #2 WITH THEIR MASKS ON! Yes, #2 was behind the wheel sporting his B&W signature mask.

    We were all excited & started waving to them & they waved back. Of course, my mother almost drove off the road because she thought they were bank robbers.

  288. I haven’t read of the Braves being interested in Paul Konerko anywhere except in that NBC guy’s imagination.

  289. What happened to the doghouse? I missed being able to check on who was the latest doghouse resident.

  290. Wikipedia updated their thing to this:

    Mark Teixeira was traded to the Atlanta Braves for Jarrod Saltalamacchia and Yunel Escobar on July 25, 2007. Also included in the trade was Eric Gagne and a player to be named later.

  291. Yes, and it would save us from having to deal Elvis Andrus.

    Maybe it’s that Chris Benoit poster from Connecticut again. if that’s the case, ESPN should be confirming it by about 11 am tomorrow.

  292. Wikipedia is now reporting the Braves instead have traded Kyle Davies, Scott Thorman, Chris Woodward, Julio Franco and Chad Paronto to Texas for Teixeira, Kevin Millwood, CJ Wilson and Joaqin Benoit.

    The Braves will also be receiving cash considerations.

    That’d be a pretty good deal ;-)

  293. On Baseball Reference’s BR Bullpen Wiki I wrote most of what’s on the 1995 World Series page. You guys wouldn’t trust me? :(

  294. The Rangers will also be receiving the rights to sign Mark Redman, Craig Wilson, Keith Lockhart & Chris Reitsma…just to sweeten the pot.

  295. Mark Charles Teixeira (IPA:təːʃɛɹə) (born April 11, 1980 in Annapolis, Maryland) is a Major League Baseball player with the Atlanta Braves. He is mainly a first baseman, but has also played at third base and in the outfield. On July 25, 2007, Teixeira was traded to the Atlanta Braves for Jarrod Saltalamacchia, Chris Woodward and a PTBNL (likely Pete Orr), according to Bill Shanks and the posters at BravesJournal.com.

  296. Also reported on Wikipedia:

    The Braves have dealt Chip Caray to the Dodgers for Vin Scully and 2 key grips.

    Ned Colletti immediately regretted this decision.

  297. (1) I’d rather have Snell than Teix. (I’d welcome Teix, though.)

    (2) Teix will almost certainly not replace Andruw in the clean-up spot. Do we forget who manages?

    (3) I would not include both Reyes and Andrus with Salty in a deal for Teix.

    (4) Assuming our financial contributions to him are minimal, I would still welcome a trade for Matt Morris.

    (5) I got PWNED by Day 1 of the TN Bar Exam.

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