ESPN – Braves vs. Giants Box Score, July 23 2007 – MLB
That’s how you do it. The Braves got three first inning runs and Smoltz made them hold up. Soriano and Wickman closed it out with relatively little trouble.
In the first, Renteria walked, National League Batting Leader Chipper Jones singled, and Andruw rallied from 1-2 down to draw another walk. McCann came up and lined a double into the left field gap, scoring all three. In the fourth, Smoltz drove in KJ with a squeeze play, making it 4-1 at the time.
Smoltz loaded the bases himself in the first inning, and scored one run on a one-out wild pitch, but got out of it with a strikeout of Ryan Klesko and a popup. After that he was basically in control until the seventh, when he allowed a double and a single, but got a double play to hold the Giants to one run. He needed only 84 pitches in seven innings, striking out four.
KJ and Julio led the Braves with two hits apiece. Julio and Andruw joined McCann with doubles. As for the chase we’re all looking at, Mark Sweeney tied Manny Mota for second on the career pinch-hit list at 150.
Another night of Julio at 1st. At least he got a couple of hits.
Latest news on Tex from the Dallas Morning News:
If the Rangers want to get the maximum value for some of their tradable commodities, it may make the most sense to package them in a bigger deal.
Almost every contending club is interested in a Rangers reliever. Three clubs – the Los Angeles Angels, Los Angeles Dodgers and Atlanta – want first baseman Mark Teixeira. Sending a reliever such as Joaquin Benoit and Teixeira to the same club may allow the Rangers to get closer to the package they most desire.
“We’re a week out and, as you’d expect, the pace and the number of calls have picked up a little,” general manager Jon Daniels said. “We’ll see what the next week brings.”
Daniels would not discuss whether he was working on multiple deals with any one club.
In a deal for Teixeira, the Angels, Dodgers and Braves each could give up one or more prospects plus a young first baseman – : Casey Kotchman (Angels), James Loney (Dodgers) or Jarod Saltalamacchia (Braves).
While the Rangers would want more for Teixeira than a one-for-one swap, other clubs might be leery of “overpaying” with a premium prospect in a two-for-one deal. But if the Rangers include a reliever in the deal, they might be able to upgrade the level of prospect they receive and even expand the deal to include a second prospect.
(Hopefully my italics work)
Link: http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dws/spt/baseball/rangers/stories/072407dnsporangbriefs.a44fd03f.html
I say go ahead and do it. Ship Salty over.
Salty is a good player and all…. but we seem to get a lot of wins without him in the lineup. Ever since Andruw has un-officially broken out of his slump and McCann has started hitting again, the lineup doesn’t really have any holes.
The only “hole” in the lineup is Franco who had two hits last night and almost went yard. Do it! FedEx the Tex!
Sounds like a good trade for both clubs. Personally, I like Salty better than McCann as a catcher, but I’m the only one.
Is the Jon Garland-for-Edgar Renteria deal dead for good?
Those two deals together would make for an interesting final two months.
The Braves certainly need offense. Three runs in the first and barely anything after that.
Noah: Salty may end up being the better catcher, possibly more power and a switch hitter. But you can’t exactly argue with keeping a two time All Star. McCann has proven he can play, whereas Salty has a lot of potential.
I heard somewhere that Salty has expressed he did not want to play 1B . . . anyone else heard that?
How much does Tex help us now compared to Salty?
I am not sure it is a big enough upgrade to justify it one up, but when you figure you get the draft pick or picks on the back end if you make them add a good reliever and we throw in a low level prospect not named Dan Smith, Matt Harrison, Kala Kaa’ihue, or Jordan Schaffer then you have a reasonable deal from both sides. Kala will take over at first if we don’t re-sign or extend Teixeira for 2009.
Watch the man, JS. If nothing happens, then we will be glad for that.
I agree.
As I posted yesterday and I feel stronger about today, our starting rotation, minus Kyle Davies now (and hopefully going forward, I would be happy to see him packaged in the deal to Texas) is actually pretty good.
Seriously, we can compete with anyone in the National League with Smoltz, Hudson, James, Carlyle and Reyes. (it’s not fantastic, but it’s solid, no real holes now).
But the offense is wildly inconsistent and a player the calibre of Tex can stabilize our lineup and really help minimize those bi-weekly 1-2 run efforts of our hitters.
I totally agree with the Dallas story…if the Rangers package in Joaqin Benoit or CJ Wilson with Tex, in exchange for say Salty, Davies and an extra low level prospect, that could work for both teams just fine.
How much does Tex help us?
First of all, he’s a switch-hitter… which means that Franco and Thorman would see VERY LITTLE playing time.
Second, I would immediately put him in the cleanup spot. No matter how “terrific” Andruw is playing, Texeira can do a better job at cleanup
Third, with Tex in the lineup… our 8th hitter would be Kelly or Diaz…depending on the opposing pitcher. Kelly who is on a hot streak and Diaz who is hitting above .300 …… that would be a great lineup
Davies pitching in the American League AND in Ameriquest Field?
Talk about throwing gas on the fire…
My problem with McCann is his defense. He’s a great hitter, but I don’t think he’s very good at blocking pitches or at throwing out baserunners.
I’d be more tempted to move McCann to first base and keep Salty behind the plate and then make a trade for a pitcher. But I know that isn’t going to happen.
I agree – I think we need to jump on this. I was dead set against trading Salty as this deadline hit us, but the more I consider it, the more this makes the most sense – Salty is blocked (effectively) at both positions he plays, he is still a very young prospect and not a proven commodity and as mentioned, Tex can solidify our line up now and gain us prospects either in a trade next year or in draft picks. We need to do it and we need a reliver in the deal, to be sure.
There’s this bit from the NY Post that mentions Tex as well:
Just because nothing is hot on the trade front isn’t going to keep Yankee brass from convening for meetings in Tampa.
General manager Brian Cashman arrived last night and was spotted watching Single-A Tampa play Clearwater in a Florida State League tilt. More executives, including president Randy Levine, who gets involved when decisions involving money are on the table, are expected today. Minor-league head Mark Newman will be on hand as will various scouts.
Of all the teams following the Yankees, the White Sox seem to be paying the most attention. And while the Yankees don’t have an interest in bringing Jose Contreras or Javier Vazquez back, industry sources indicated last night they could be interested in 27-year-old right-handed starter Jon Garland or 30-year-old lefty reliever Matt Thornton.
The White Sox had Bill Scherrer and Dave Yokam – special assistants to GM Ken Williams – in St. Petersburg, Fla., recently to watch the Yankees, and Scherrer was on hand last night at Kauffman Stadium. In addition, the White Sox have had scouts following Single-A Tampa.
Garland, who makes $10 million this year and $12 million in 2008, is 7-7 with a 4.15 ERA. His career mark is 89-75. Thornton, 30, is 2-3 with a 4.96 ERA. Left-handed hitters are batting .296 (16-for-54) against him.
With the July 31 trade deadline approaching, Cashman said his phone has been ringing but nothing has made a lot of sense. While the Rangers are pushing switch-hitting first baseman Mark Teixeira hard on the Yankees, they aren’t biting. Especially since the Rangers have eyes for stud pitching prospect Joba Chamberlain.
Link: http://www.nypost.com/seven/07242007/sports/yankees/bombers_convene_trade_yankees_george_king.htm
Just a response to the Garland for Renteria rumor: I can’t see why you would trade your shortstop hitting .330–probably the MVP of the team–for a decent but not great right hander with potentially arm problems to play a shortstop with little power. Am I missing something here?
Also, how much did Bonds pay Sutcliffe to kiss his ass every minute? Jeez, every other word out of his mouth is about how great Barry is and how unfair it is not to like him.
I still think the rotation is a problem but it’s probably servciceable, if the Big Three pitch well consistently. Before we get too excited about Carlisle, let’s see how he does the second time around the league. But, since he probably will only see teams once the rest of the year, he is probably fine in his role.
Hmm, the ESPN recap of the game last night says, “Figure this: Bonds, who has eight career homers off Smoltz, has not gone deep off the veteran hurler since 1998.”
That isn’t neccessarily true, though. I remember Bonds hitting a meaningless solo home run off Smoltz in the ninth back when they last met in the playoffs (the game was at the Ted.) I also remember a fan threw it back!
I’m completely on the side of trading Salty. I got excited w/ keeping him at first, but there is just more upside in trading him while his value is so high. I think JS could get Tex w/ Salty in the deal, but is trying to wait and see if he can do it w/o including Salty.
I think a lot of players should be eternally grateful that Barry is such an arse. He takes virtually all the blame for steroids. His shadow looms so large that many current players can have their steroid past hidden. At the end of this period in baseball we should just put an asterisk next to the 90’s and move on. Barry hit a lot of homers off a lot of pitchers who were using steroids themselves.
Also, let me say that the one thing this homer chase has made me realize is just how great Aaron was. I never realized how high he ranked all time in so many offensive categories. When you compound that with the era he played in it becomes even more amazing.
If Salty isn’t in the deal, what could we possibly afford to trade that Texas would find acceptable?
ps- I would do the trade only with the idea of signing Teixiera long term. He’s the real deal.
Well, is JS sits on his hands too long, Tex will be in L.A. with the Dodgers or Angels instead. It’s a mistake to sit too long, especially with Salty not having prototypical first base type of offense and blocked at catcher by McCann.
I just hope JS doesn’t wait, especially if we can get Texas to package in a relief pitcher, the deal is a no brainer.
With Scott BorASS as his agent, we will not be signing Tex long term, unfortunately.
There’s basically about 5-6 teams left in Baseball that can afford to deal w/ BorASS…the Mets, Yanks, Red Sox, Angels, Dodgers and Cubs.
12 – Because pitching is seen as more valuable than hitting? Because Renteria is is hitting about 40 points above his career average and is having the greatest off. year of his life and since he’s 32, it’s probably not going to be repeated? Because we are middle infielder-rich at the moment?
Garland is 28, I think. The arm trouble is supposed to be just a knot that isn’t causing him any pain. He’s pitching reasonably well for a pretty bad team.
A lineup with Tex plus Escobar-and-Johnson-everday minus Renteria bolstered by Garland as your #3 starter is better, IMO, than a lineup with Tex and Renteria with Chuck James or Buddy Carlisle as a #3.
I agree Alex R, the worst thing would be to wait and lose out on Tex just to hold onto Salty. As Stu would say, I trust JS.
It depends on what Texas’ needs are – Loney has a much better pedigree as a 1B/hitter. A lot of Salty’s value lies in his being a catcher.
As far as Boras goes, he’s a part of the landscape, and really not much different, albeit more successful, than his peers. I don’t think it’s Boras so much as the market value of the players he represents that put people off. I’ve never held his success against him, although it appears I am in the minority on that one.
I sort of agree with noah @ 19 there (though we should keep in mind that the Renteria and Teixeira trades are separate—we could well end up without either, which makes the lineup substantially less appealing), the more that I think about it. On paper, if you get Teixeira, moving Renteria for a pitcher makes some sense.
However, I also think Renteria is a “glue guy”. I know the term’s not used much in baseball, but he just seems so important to this team, even more than his stats indicate. That may just be my emotions getting the better of me, but as statistically beneficial as trading him might be, I won’t be able to get behind it. Not for Jon Garland, anyway.
I think the dropoff from Renteria to Escobar would hurt more than you think, noah, although your larger point about the relative value is still arguable.
Exactly…JS has made his fair share of mistakes (Millwood to division rival Philly in his prime for Estrada when he still had 2 more months to find a trade) but if we are getting to have Tex in 2008 (even if he leaves in 2009), I am fine with the deal.
I think Salty can be a very godo Major League hitter, I am just not sure he’ll ever be quite as good as a Tex and you make a deal when your team has a legitimate shot at winning the NLCS. We really do.
For all the holes and injuries this team has, we have just as good of a chance as the Cubs, Mets, pods, Dodgers, Brewers & phils to win the NL.
Tex will help make us a favorite down the stretch and at this stage with Chipper and Smoltz’s injuries and age, plus with this likely being Andruw’s last year, the time to make another run is now.
Get out of my mind, Stu.
Renteria’s value to this team right now is enormous. He’s easily the MVP and with Chipper’s injuries, he’s been our most consistent guy. But I don’t think you can count on that, long-term.
What am I missing or not seeing with Garland?
I would trade Salty for Tex. Didn’t Texiera go to Georgia Tech? We’ve signed Boras clients before, so I wouldn’t think there is no chance. I would not trade Renteria for Garland. Renteria is to important to the team’s offense right now. But I’d consider trading him in the offseason.
Off topic: Can anyone recommend some good college football blogs?
Mediocrity
my response was to Noah
Stu,
We have pretty solidly agreed about trades of late, so I am surprised you’d support us trading Rentaria. That would be a ginormous mistake.
The guy has simply been the best Braves hitter, all year long. He is the glue…that is correct. I wouldn’t even trade him for Snell. SERIOUSLY. What is everyone thinking?
And for JON FREAKING GARLAND? Are you freaking kidding me? I wouldn’t trade Salty or Escobar for Garland. If JS does that, he should resign as General Manager and has no business running a team anymore.
No way in hell I believe JS would be that stupid and trade an all star SS (and the fact that Lajerka didn’t put Edgar on the team has nothing to do with the stellar year the man is having) for a mediocre starter.
Look, I like Escobar more than most, but trading Renty in the midst of the year he’s having…well it’s akin to something the Hawks did way back when they had a chance to win the Eastern Conference one time…they traded Dominique for Danny Manning and essentially got bounced in the 2nd round because they had given up their only go to scorer.
It’s not quite the same thing (different sports), but I can’t believe anyone in here would consider trading Rentaria.
http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/story/7053996
More on this
Black & white of it:
Rentaria for Garland would be the worst, dumbest, most asinine trade in Braves history. Nothing would ever ever ever top it.
It’s downright shameful.
And I already hated Gammons, but the fact that Gammons would even suggest it just makes me downright loathe that Red Sox a– kisser even more. Sickening thought. Just sickening.
I would do a Escobar for Garland in a cocaine heartbeat.
“Rentaria for Garland would be the worst, dumbest, most asinine trade in Braves history. Nothing would ever ever ever top it.”
Hardly…
Like I said in a previous thread, Gammons is not mentally all there, as shown by his reference to the Braves’ “proposed” sale. I feel pretty confident that the deal was actually Escobar for Garland, which makes more sense for both sides. Why would the White Sox want an 32-year-old shortstop making $8 million a year when they’re rebuilding?
For some reason, JS won’t even consider dealing Escobar. Again, I like Yunel but the idea of trading Edgar for Garland, is mind boggling, it’s so stupid.
I can’t believe you have supposedly legitimate writers like Ken Rosenthal perpetrating this LIE on the public. When did JS’ brain fall out that he would consider a horrifying deal like that??
Julio Franco is so NOW that ESPN wouldn’t even debate his NOWINESS by putting him in the “bracket.”
Shouldn’t the team be focused on pitching (starting or relief) instead of Tex?
JS is leaking reports he is willing to trade Renteria to bolster Escobar’s trade value. He is trying to make everyone believe the Braves think Escobar could be better than Renteria, when we know that is not going to happen. JS is working the propaganda hard. He would not trade Renteria; he is simply trying to inflate Escobar’s value. Renteria’s eventual stud replacement is Elivs Andrus.
Noah-
Name a worse trade?The Millwood/Estrada deal was insanely horrible, but at least that was in the offseason.
Trading your most reliable offensive player for a mediocre pitcher during a pennant drive would cause Braves fans to take up arms.
Whoops, posted that too soon.
Trading a 32-year-old shortstop who is playing out of his mind when you’ve got three solid guys behind him for a 28-year-old #3 starter is hardly “the worst, dumbest most asinine trade” possible.
Noah,
I agree with you IF the deal is contingent on getting Teixera. It’s not like Garland is an ace and if you trade Renteria without getting another bat, an inconsistent offense is even worse.
As for Renteria not repeating the year, that’s probably true, but it’s not like this is his first good year and, in fact, he had this kind of year last year until fading late. There is no reason to think that 32 is so old that he doesn’t have a few more good years left. I’m a lot more skeptical about Escobar being able to provide offense on a consistent basis.
And to say “it’s just a knot” in his shoulder is taking a pretty big leap of faith. I’m not necessarily saying I wouldn’t want Garland but you can’t give up Renteria unless you get another bat.
Hate King,
I really hope you’re right.
While we are on deals, let’s celebrate the no trade for SF’s Matt Morris, who in his last 11 innings has given up 11 earned runs, with NO strike-outs (very hard to do, for an MLB pitcher in the NL-I figure he faced a pitcher at least 4 times in that stretch). Watch, he’ll be lights out against us tonight…
Noah,
You are so completely wrong on this, it’s not even funny.
You seriously would trade the guy who’s been carrying your offense most noghts for a guy who’s been getting shelled and may have arm problems?
Are you kidding???????????????
I think Escobar is a good player I just don’t see him having any power at all. If Harris and Escobar batted 1-2, plus if Andruw Jones leaves, or if Chipper is cramping, the lineup is void of any power threat. Besides Julio of course.
Hate King @ #38 hit the nail on the head.
Um, Alex… How about a young centerfielder/leadoff man who would wind up with borderline HOF credentials and a third baseman who would play regularly for nine years in exchange for a sore-armed pitcher whose Atlanta record was 10-20?
“Name a worse trade?”
Len Barker for Brett Butler, Brook Jacoby and Rick Behenna.
Adam Wainright and Jason Marquis for JD Drew.
Jermaine Dye for Keith Lockhart and Michael Tucker.
Steve Bedrosian and Milt Thompson for Ozzie Virgil.
Tommie Greene and Dale Murphy for Jeff Parrett.
Yes, the Len Barker deal was rather awful.
I apologize for not being clearer earlier. Marc has what I was implying.
The Garland deal + the Tex deal > Renteria staying + the Tex deal.
I don’t want to trade Renteria unless we’re adding Teixeria (or however its spelled).
As bad as these deals are, I am trying to put it into this context:
We are, currently, a contending team in the National league. A large reason for this is Edgar Rentaria who’s saved our hydes on plenty of nights.
In exchange, we’d be getting a sore armed pitcher who’s currently no better then our starters, 3-5.
That’s all.
Yes, the Len Barker deal was classically bad.
By the way, some would argue the Drew deal, but I am on your side, Noah. I hated that deal.
Alex,
Dude, I said I wouldn’t make the trade.
And I hope Hate King is right. But Mac, as logical as your point is, how on earth can you “feel pretty confident that the deal was actually Escobar for Garland”, when all reports are to the contrary? This isn’t just Gammons.
OK, I have hit the point of using all CAPS,I am so angry about this:
MAKE THE DEAL FOR TEXEIRA AND KEEP EDGAR AS WELL. DO NOT TRADE EDGAR JUST BECAUSE YOU ARE GETTING TEX. WHY IN GOD’S NAME WOULDN’T WE KEEP BOTH PLAYERS.
HAVE BOTH EDGAR AND TEX. MY GOODNESS.
JON GARLAND IS NOT CURRENTLY BETTER THEN REYES, JAMES OR CARLYLE. LOOK AT THE NUMBERS AND HE’S HURT.
Also, I would trade our most reliable hitter, Edgar, for Snell or Gozelanny either.
DO NOT TRADE EDGAR RENATARIA. HE’S OUR MOST RELIABLE PLAYER.
The JD Drew deal was much, much better than the proposed Renteria deal.
We’d do this one because we’re strapped for pitching, but it would certainly hurt the offense. With Drew, we added our best bat that season at the expense of two pitchers who liked giving up runs (King and Marquis) and one who was more than 2 years away from breaking into the majors. (And who, as Dan and others have recently and rightly pointed out, is no better than Chuck James.)
Can I ask a quick question?
Who is most likely to play the best defense at shortstop during this pennant chase-Edgar or Yunel?
Noah,
Please, for all that is good & holy in life, will you look at what Egar is doing and look at the dogsh– year Garland is having?
Are you high?
Alex,
You wouldn’t trade him for Snell? I would.
I’ll allow Alex R’s all CAPS to suggest my own strong feelings against any trade of Renteria unless we are getting a stud pitcher in return – no less than a #2 starter would do in order to trade the most consistent player on the team (and quite possibly why we even have a chance at all presently.)
I can’t think of anyone I’d want more on my team during the playoffs than Edgar Renteria–except for maybe John Smoltz. Renteria’s experience and his ability to perform in the clutch make him an invaluable asset to the team. Without Renteria, there’s no playoffs.
As I’ve stated before, JS is obviously posturing on Escobar to make him more desirable to trading partners.
He knows, Baseball America knows, Baseball Porspectus knows, EVERYONE knows Salty is the more valuable prospect.
Escobar is out the door; JS is just maximizing his value by making him appear more valuable to the Atlanta organization than he actually is.
How else do you think JS has succeeded all these years? The guy knows the art of making a deal…
Alex – I’m looking at it this way…
Renteria is being replaced by Teixeira (who has a higher OBP and slugging %).
Thorman is being replaced by Escobar.
Teixeria is better defensively than Thorman and I think Escobar has to have better range than Renteria.
I’ll admit that I’m not completely aware of Garland’s health. If there’s a problem in the shoulder, obviously that deal is off the table. But the report that I have seen didn’t refer to a sore shoulder and said Garland was having no pain when he threw.
How else do you think JS has succeeded all these years?
I had previously assumed Voodoo. Your reasoning makes more sense.
Remy – that’s a great point. Goodness knows we have seen Edgar perform in clutch situations in previous post-seasons. He and Chipper are musts if we expect to contend through October.
BTW, the all-caps thing isn’t working. I’d still make both of those deals. Maybe you should go to bold or italics. Maybe a different font?
But…the Braves aren’t calling me and asking me for advice, so I don’t think you need to worry.
Stu – I don’t think you give up two quality pitchers for an injury prone outfielder (who, like running backs in the NFL, are cheap and plentiful).
Noah,
You seem like a nice guy but clearly, reason isn’t working.
No one is saying Thorman shouldn’t be anywhere near the starting lineup, but how in God’s name do you not see how horrible a trade Rentaria for Garland is?
Besides how good Rentaria is, Garland SUCKS.
Please, Noah, for 3 seconds, will you please look at Garland’s numbers and can you honestly tell me he’d be better as opposed to James, Carlyle or even Reyes? Not really.
IF he’s healthy, he MAYBE slightly better then Reyes, but at the expense of our most reliable offensive player?
Again, why wouldn’t you want to have both tex and Edgar? Why does getting Tex have to mean the end of Edgar?
Again, I have heard nothing about JS using this Edgar talk as ploy. I hope to God. But I am at least grateful that Noah is not the Braves GM.
JS is the biggest schemer in the game today. He is constantly being mentioned to be a big player in the pre trade deadline activity and then a couple of trades get leaked. Is this due to Buster Olney and others’ excellent investigative tactics? No, it is because JS force feeds these desperate writers the information he wants other teams to hear.
I don’t understand why we are even discussing the Renteria/Garland trade- it came from Gammons, its not been repeated in any other sources, and save for Noah(who just recently jumped into the whole discussion) ya’ll just keep propping this trade up to rip it apart. Let’s talk about Tex, pitchers, and relievers. There seems to be this mentality in these comments to beat a dead horse just to have yourself on the comments. Its a made up trade rumor by a senile old man- no need to discuss.
If we get Tex, then we don’t have to resign Andruw. Let’s do the deal now so we can have him in the line up by tonight.
How else do you think JS has succeeded all these years?
I had previously assumed Voodoo. Your reasoning makes more sense.
That actually made me laugh out loud. Thanks.
I agree with Alex. Do not trade Renteria !!!
ok well i guess rosenthal has it today- i stand corrected.
Yes, Rosenthal is the latest legit writer to give this insanely stupid trade credence.
So, at last count: Gammons, Rosenthal and Noah.
These are the 3 people who want to see Rentaria traded for a below average, sore armed, 28 year old White Sox castoff.
Just keeping count.
Alex – Tell me why Garland SUCKS. I’m obviously looking at the wrong numbers.
Tell me why he’s so horrible. I’ll believe you, I promise.
This trade would be equivalent to say, I dunno:
Chipper Jones for Jorge Sosa, maybe?
It’s that equivalent level of stupidity.
Noah quit smoking that green stuff.
Noah, if yuo have trouble reading his numbers, I would recommend increasing the font size in the top right corner of your computer. Or glasses.
I have figured it out.
Noah is a White Sox fan trolling BravesJournal.
This Renteria stuff is a smokescreen, guys! Escobar is the real trade target. Come on, this is a “win-now” team. Don’t believe everything you read on the Internet…
Salty and Davies for Tex and a pen arm is a no brainer.
Well, I look forward to what I’m sure is a very compelling reason…
80 – of COURSE it is.
Why on earth would Texas take Kyle Davies??
Garland hasn’t pitched that badly. His ERA is 4.10, in an American League hitter’s park — that translates to a 110 OPS+. However, it’s hard to see how he could sustain this. He’s only struck out 58, and walked 43, in 132 2/3 innings, which is Horacioesque. His ERA “should” be a lot higher.
Kyle Davies = Jon Garland
But Texas would take Davies because unlike your psychotic White Sox deal, the Rangers would also be getting Salty.
Tex and CJ Wilson for Salty and Davies makes sense for both teams.
Gee, Mac, Horacio-esque? Now Noah may want us to give McCann along with Rentaria.
RIDICULOUS.
Young Pitching Prospect (Davies, Reyes,or Harrision), Salty, and Thomas Hanson (in Single A) for Tex and Joaquin Benoit.
If we trade Reyes, we have to call Davies back up.
Got this from a Rotowire e-mail update (excellent fantasy baseball website)re: Octavio Dotel (KC)
———–
The most interested teams in trading for Dotel are the Dodgers and Indians, the Kansas City Star reports.
ROTOWIRE RECOMMENDS: Supposedly the Royals’ asking price has been too high for either of the other clubs (Tony Abreu or Chin-Lung Hu from the Dodgers, Franklin Gutierrez or Ben Francisco from the Tribe). Dotel would enter a pretty good fantasy situation going to either team, as Dodgers’ closer Takashi Saito is hurting, and the Indians are currently relying on Joe Borowski and his 5.12 ERA.
————
If that is all that they are asking, do we not have some moderate prospect to send for Dotel? I’d take him.
Perhaps Dayton still believes in someone we can’t wait to develop (Kyle Davies).
And that’s too much for Teix, IMO, Smitty. It should take less than 3 very good prospects to land him.
I agree w/ Stu 100%. I actually think Davies & Salty might be enough, but I would be happy to toss in one more low A prospect to get that Wilson/Tex package into Atlanta.
I wouldn’t trade Hanson, who is the one pitcher in the system who looks like he might be an ace.
CJ Wilson’s 26-years-old, averaging about a K per inning and has an era of 2.66 in a hitter-friendly park.
And they HAVE take Kyle Davies and continue giving him money in return for pitching as part of the deal?
Good lord…
The whole Garland/Renty thing doesn’t add up to me.
First off, in each of the 2 previous years, Garland won 18 games. In the AL. He’s not bad. He’s pretty good.
However…”knot in shoulder” should be a big warning sign. After the Mike Gonzalez situation, JS surely knows better.
Also, he makes $10M. Trading Renty for him might ease ATL payroll to afford him, but (as Mac has mentioned) how does that help the White Sox? Why would they do it?
Then there’s the matter that Renty has been simply terrific this year. I’m not sure that ATL would do that deal either.
Smokescreen for something else? That’s story I’d buy.
I will say this…Kyle Davies should be paying the Braves for the privilege of still pitching in the Majors.
Lovie Jung for Renterua makes more sense to me.
But I digress…
Assuming we got Teixeira, I’d trade Renteria for a healthy #3 (whoever that is) because I don’t think he’s going to continue to be as productive as he’s been this year and because I’ve got three other middle infielders I can replace him with who are pretty solid prospects.
Change Hanson for Devine then
Again, unless we are getting a proven frontline starter who’s currently pitching ace level, we should end any discussion of any trade involving Edgar Rentaria.
This is just asinine.
Oh, and also, yes, I’m in the minority for making that deal and no, I’m not in any position to do it…and the deal is apparently dead.
So…moving on…
noah said: Assuming we got Teixeira, I’d trade Renteria for a healthy #3 (whoever that is) because I don’t think he’s going to continue to be as productive as he’s been this year and because I’ve got three other middle infielders I can replace him with who are pretty solid prospects.
If we were discussing this in the offseasonm, you may have a point, but it would be foolish to change midstream and set an unproven SS in the place of Renteria in the middle of a pennant race.
I agree with Noah. Get Teixeira, and then trade whichever of Renteria or Escobar it takes to get a solid 2 or 3. Sweeten the deal with prospects if necessary. These deals sollidify both offense and rotation.
Again agreeing with Noah, I don’t see either deal happening.
Coz has it right, people.
You don’t trade your most reliable offensive player in the middle of a pennant race, especially for a sore armed 28 yr. old starter who’s no better then any of your current 5 starters.
In the offseason, you re-evaluate. (though I still would never trade Renty for Garland…mac is right…look at the K numbers).
But again, you don’t take the guy you have the most confidence helping start a rally, night after night. Especially considering how inconsistent this lineup is anyway.
I’d be all for trading Renty right now if we could get someone amazing… but Garland isn’t amazing. Also, I’m a very stat-minded person, so I rarely say things like this, but Renty really has been the glue this year. Dumping him seems like it would just be… wrong–unless we get something nuts in return.
However, the offseason is a whole new story. I think that would be almost likely, since Lilli and Elvis will be one step closer (in theory).
And put me in the boat that wants the Salty-Tex trade to go down.
One thing I love/hate about being a Braves fan is JS is such a smokescreen kind of guy. I love that he appears to always be one step ahead of the game, but I hate that nobody really sees where he’s coming from [people on the outside don’t see it that is {and a few dumber GMs}].
[noah = Tony?]
You just don’t trade part of the core of your offense in the middle of a pennant race. It’s stupid.
I find myself agreeing with both Alex R and Stu. Funny that.
My problem with McCann is his defense. He’s a great hitter, but I don’t think he’s very good at blocking pitches or at throwing out baserunners.
Yeah, me too. Watching him ole that ball in the dirt last night and cost Smoltz a run in the first was pretty maddening. He has the worst fundamentals back there, just refuses to give up his body to block balls.
Wow, if Robert, Stu and I are all on the same page for once, that pretty much seals the deal that this board is officially against trading Edgar. (again, if the Padres want to give us Jake Peavy, fine, JS has my blessing to do a deal 🙂
Mac…do you agree with the example I use of ‘Nique for Manning during that one great year for the Hawks?
Trading Renteria during this season would be insane. He’s been our 2nd best hitter. The Braves need to be adding offense not trading it away. Trading Escobar’s all hits, no walks or home runs bat makes more sense.
wryn,
where is the auburn preview? is mac holding hostage?
I’ll preview Auburn for you, beedee:
Illiteracy.
Stu, don’t forget:
Trailer parks.
noah,
I think the comparisons of you to Tony are grossly unfair and inaccurate, and I think some are blowing your idea out of proportion. It’s not that bad.
With that said, the real problem for me is that Garland just isn’t that good. (And like somebody said earlier—yes, I’m too lazy to scroll up to find out who—you’re likely undervaluing Renteria’s production over the next season and a half.) The whole “you don’t trade key parts of your offense in the middle of a pennant race” notion is a good general idea, but I don’t think anyone would have a problem trading Edgar for Johan Santana. The problem is that Jon Garland just doesn’t make the tinkering worth it.
And about JD Drew, the dead horse I will forever beat—who cares if he’s been injury prone with everyone else? He was durable and great for us, and we didn’t give up as much as some would lead you to believe.
I need to get that Georgia Tech preview going again. Not that anyone cares, but I saw a random blog entry where the blogger said that Steven Threet left GT because Gailey started Reggie Ball for four years and that there would be no chance for any kind of big success. No joke.
http://sports.aol.com/fanhouse/2007/07/10/steven-threet-flees-chan-gailey-equilibrium/
Threet really left because Georgia Tech is still a hard school, and he’s not getting any playing time for at least two years because of Taylor Bennett, and that he also has to compete with Josh Nesbitt directly.
Robert,
I think you’ve agreed with me on most things around here, apart from Barry Bonds and college football.
And, yes, McCann continues to look like a defensive liability, reports of his great ability to “call a game” notwithstanding.
So I wonder… did we make a mistake in signing McCann first? 😛
i would, for the sake of argument, say renteria has been our #1 hitter considering he’s played in 20 more games than chipper.
ryan c,
Yeah, I’d agree with that.
Okay, time for a comparison that may get some harsh criticism, but one that I find at least somewhat useful…
I’ve always sort of thought of Edgar, offensively, as the poor man’s Jeter (which is a compliment). A little less average and power, traditionally, but a very solid #2 hitter, as compared to a great #2 hitter. With that said, Jeter’s age-31 season looked like this:
.309/.389/.450
Renteria, currently 31, has put up these stats so far this season:
.334/.392/.484
Yes, Renteria’s having a career year, and he’s unlikely to put up these stats in the future. And I’m not suggesting he’s a better post-30 SS than Jeter. What I am suggesting is that post-30 shortstops in this mold can continue to be successful. Jeter’s age-32 and age-33 seasons:
.343/.417/.483
.330/.398/.459
Still very productive. I think Edgar can (and will) be, too.
Sam,
Let me be clear: Brian McCann is, in my opinion, this team’s most valuable asset. I love him. He is not an overall liability. His defense needs some serious work, though.
It would be sweet if we could come up with Braves Journal stats. They would keep track of your position on important debates like: was the JD Drew trade worth it or should we trade Renteria for a potential #3 starter or are you pro or anti Frenchy? We could potentially have a top ten “similar posters” ranking system analogous to baseball references’ “similar batters” top ten.
Stu-
What’s the disagreement you guys have on Bonds?
And YES. For the record, everyone would trade Edgar today for Johann Santana. 🙂
do… not… trade… renty! he has been the heart of our offense this year. why would you trade him for garland, i wouldn’t even trade salty for garland. and anyway $10 Mio, i just don’t see it.
anybody heard anything about the insurance money for hampton?
Stu,
I know, I was just kidding. It’s silly to say that signing McCann was the mistake.
JD Drew: Worth it
Renty trade: No
Frenchy: Pro
There, I started it. 😉
Interestingly, I was in Boston over the weekend visiting a childhood friend of mine who lives there with his wife (we grew up together in Savannah)…still a Braves fan first (but sadly also a Red Sox fan, oh well). (I told him if he ever logged into BravesJournal, he’d be largely outnumbered in this particular debate).
He and I spent 15 minutes debating McCann vs. Frenchy (I was on the McCann side). And while agree with him that Frenchy is having a better year and taken more walks, I argued strongly that McCann is a far more valuable player to the Braves vs. Frenchy.
But I agree…Brian’s defense needs to improve.
Nobody is anti-Smurph. The various debates on him have been things like (1) was Adam LaRoche more valuable last season and (2) would he be better if he’d spent more time in the minors.
Alex, the Bonds thing—I (alone) said I’d intentionally walk him every single time, regardless of the game situation. Robert (hardly alone) said that’s stupid and would make a mockery of the game.
Hate King,
That’s a fabulous idea. I would be terrified to learn who my most similar posters are, though. It’d also be tough, because I know I—and probably others—have changed my mind on some issues over the months/years (for example, the Tom Glavine thing).
Shows you how good my memory is. I couldn’t remember what the Bonds disagreement was and that was like two days ago.
Drew: Totally worth it.
Renteria: No trade
Frenchy: Anti-frenchy. Watching him waste his talent with his braindead approach makes me crazy.
Oh, the Tom Glavine debate got very nasty in here. But that one was very personal to me since my dad & I spent so much time getting to know Tom on a particular Saturday many years ago. Not only was Tom so nice and warm to talk with, it was one of my best father-son memories.
(and with a baby boy on the way, I only hope I get to have a similar experience in the future with my son).
Re: Bonds
I am actually torn on this & see both sides.
Personally, I am hoping for a Tim Hudson fastball to his knee and we preserve Hank’s record until someone more deserving who didn’t cheat and treat people like garbage (like A-Rod) can do it.
I just don’t want to see that smarmy thug Bonds get it.
now stu, just cuz the ‘dores won the SEC spelling bee doesn’t mean they can’t be beaten. 😉
I can’t think of a less deserving human being to hold one of the most hallowed records in sports, then Bonds. It really is heartbreaking and such a bad example to kids eveywhere who love Baseball…cheat, take illegal substances, treat people like garbage, cheat on your wife, your taxes…and you can still become the all time home run king.
It’s depressing.
Speaking of the Commodores!
As a teaser for my upcoming Vanderbilt season preview (I know you’re all waiting on pins and needles):
Vandy has 3 preseason All SEC first team selections, second in the conference only to LSU.
Vandy returns its entire offensive line. 5 seniors.
Congratulations, Alex. All the best to you and your family.
I can’t think of a less deserving human being to hold one of the most hallowed records in sports, then Bonds.
Pete Rose? How about if Ray Carruth was the NFL’s all-time TD leader? That would be worse.
Sorry…Bonds is worse. Thankfully, Rae Carruth isn’t.
Remy,
Thanks! We’re very excited.
I am already on atlantabraves.com looking at baby Braves gear.
I meant to say Rae Carruth isn’t the all time TD leader…Carruth is the worst of all 3.
stu,
i think i’m gonna grab season tickets this year for ‘dores. they’ve got a pretty good home schedule and for $99 bucks it’s a deal.
You live in/near Nashville, beedee?
The home schedule actually isn’t that good. But there are 8 games. (Another reason for optimism this season is that our 4 toughest opponents are our 4 road games—the games we’re most likely to lose, anyway.)
I don’t have any particular point to make since it’s already been made numerous times, but allow me to support the “trading Edgar under any circumstances is stupid” line of thinking. Escobar, in case you haven’t noticed recently, is relatively useless. Defense is the only possible aspect of his game that is superior to Edgar’s, and Edgar’s defense is way underrated anyway.
I wouldn’t trade him for Ian Snell, either. I wouldn’t trade him for anybody. Somebody mentioned Jake Peavy, but I might not even do that deal. I guess I probably would, but I would have to stop and think about it before I did.
I mentioned this the other day, but I really hope that we’re not overrating Escobar this badly and are just trying to drive up his trade value. Yunel Escobar should not even be platooning with Kelly. He’s not that great. He’s a utility infielder on a good team or a starting shortstop on a crappy team. I swear to God, if we get rid of Edgar now or during the offseason so that we can make Escobar the starting shortstop, I will be so freaking pissed.
“I think the comparisons of you to Tony are grossly unfair and inaccurate, and I think some are blowing your idea out of proportion. It’s not that bad.”
Hyperbole and sports discussions are chocolate and peanut butter. My feelings weren’t hurt.
And Alex, I’m totally in agreement with you on Bonds. I’m sorry to say that I’ve been silently hoping for a car wreck that trashes both of his knees.
Drew: in hindsight no, we didn’t win a title and what the goal was. Plus, wainwright would look good in a braves uniform now.
renteria: hell no. Unless it is for: Verlander, King Felix, Santana, Beckett, Peavy, Young, Webb, Bedard, Sabathia, Carmona, Hamels, Halladay, Harang (only added after last night), Oswalt, Zambrano, or Lackey.
Frenchy: Pro- he could still put it all together.
Here’s a list of approved pitchers that we can currently trade Edgar for:
Jake Peavy
Chris Young
Johann Santana
Justin Verlander
Jeremy Bonderman
Jonathan Papelbon
Josh Beckett
Daisuke Matsuzaka
Cole Hamels
Brad Penny
CC Sabathia
Dan Haren
Erik Bedard
If the pitcher is not on that list, don’t trade Edgar.
The home schedule actually isn’t that good. But there are 8 games. (Another reason for optimism this season is that our 4 toughest opponents are our 4 road games—the games we’re most likely to lose, anyway.)
Made me look:
Richmond
Alabama
Ole Miss
Eastern Michigan
Georgia
Miami OH
Kentucky
Wake Forest
The traditional 8-4 SEC alignment, but those four road games are killers.
I paid considerably more than $99 bucks for my tickets and I got only six games, and one of them is Idaho:
Idaho
Washington State
Stanford
Arizona
Oregon State
UCLA
Not exactly murderer’s row, all the tough games are on the road this year.
i live in chattanooga, my parents live in outside of nashvile.
when i said you have a good home schedule, i guess i meant your hosting teams i’d like to see (the ‘dores beat) such as Bama, ole Miss, UGA, and the KY jellycats.
Auburn’s home schedule sucks with the exception of the Tahd coming to town for their beating. but i’m not gonna spend $1000 bucks towards our next ex-con recruit just so i can have tickets to the iron bowl. maybe my sister can score me a ticket from one of her vet school buddies.
Ethan-
Our lists are mostly similar and yeah, there’s a few guys like Halladay and Fausto Carmona I would think about as well.
As much as I like Edgar (and he’s been our best everyday player), the chance to get an ace you take, and take your chances with Yunel Escobar, because a starter on my list makes the Braves so much better, it’s not even funny.
Jon Garland wouldn’t even make my D or F list.
Noah-
I might not say it out loud, but whatever helps knock Bonds’ knees out, I won’t be heartbroken…we’ll just say that.
Alex said: Personally, I am hoping for a Tim Hudson fastball to his knee and we preserve Hank’s record until someone more deserving who didn’t cheat and treat people like garbage (like A-Rod) can do it.
I have been waiting for that “fastball to the knee” to happen for quite some time now. I agree with everything but the ARod statement, I can’t stand him either. He is also a jackass.
JD-
But A-Rod is cordial when speaking to the media, cordial to fans, and hasn’t cheated (at least on Baseball…). The point being, is I wouldn’t have a major problem with it and neither would most fans.
Sure, I would like for Braves to hold every record in Baseball, but I am realist so as long as it’s someone my future kid could reasonably admire, I am OK with it.
“I might not say it out loud, but whatever helps knock Bonds’ knees out, I won’t be heartbroken…we’ll just say that.”
Anyone know where Tonya Harding is these days?
Robert,
It may be the traditional SEC alignment, but I certainly can’t ever remember a Vandy season with 8 home games. Again, I’m too lazy to actually do the research. And when your roster has 0 players who were alive the last team the school made a bowl appearance, you’ll take any advantage you can get.
Alex, I agree. ARod doesn’t hold a candle to Bonds in terms of “Aholeishness,” but he is still an ass notwithstanding it being a Braves record.
ARod is one million percent more deserving that Bonds. In my book Bonds is 4 or 5 on my list of people I hate, with the top spot including the likes of Osama Bin Laden.
…the last *time* the school made a bowl appearance…
What do you guys think about Matt Harrison as a trade chip? To me, his numbers scream “batting practice pitcher” once he gets to the big leagues. Also, I read that he hasn’t been promoted to Richmond because he only has 2 solid pitches.
I don’t like either trade. In both cases, we’re adding a TON of payroll, giving up guys who are playing at less than market value (in Salty’s case, a TON less than market) for players who are signed to market-or-close level deals. 3 years of pre-arb. Salty are sooooo valuable that it’s not even funny. Basically, this deal adds about $15M to our payroll for this year and probably $20M or more for next year. Are you seriously going to tell me that Teix + Garland > Salty + Edgar + $20M in FAs this off-season? I mean, that’s a front-line starter right there, AND you get to keep Edgar and Salty.
The only way the Renteria deal happens is if the ChiSox pay the difference in the salaries, and the only way the Teixiera deal happens is if it’s not for Salty.
JD-
As much as we all hate Bonds, I would definitely not go as far as to compare him to Osama Bin Laden, the man who masterminded the murder of 3,000 people on 9-11. Let’s keep things in perspective 🙂
And let’s not assume we ALL hate Bonds. I, for one, am fully behind his chase. Not a popular opinion around here, but so be it. 🙂
Bin Laden is my number 1, Bonds is my number 5. I think that’s pretty close to accurate. Lol.
CoZ: Let me guess you didn’t think OJ killed anyone either?
(P.S. Before Tony comes back and accuses me of being racist, my OJ comment has no racial connotation. I apologize if it offends anyone or if you take it racially).
Wow, Coz, and I respected you so much earlier.
You are on BravesJournal and rooting for Bonds?
Noah, I am sorry for my criticisms earlier. Your Garland trade scenario now seems tame to me, by comparison. This is now officially the worst thing I have heard today.
Stu,
Now that that ‘Dores got their once-a-decade win or tie, you can bet that the Dawgs will be up for this Nashville trip. 😉
ubbuba, what is the link to the Mac’s SEC Preview page?
Bonds is #3 on my Most Hated In Sports list.
1) Michael Vick
2) Michael Vick
3) Bonds
4) Steve Carlton
5) Christian Laettner
For those that don’t like A-Rod, what is it that bothers you? His behavior is bizarre. And he’s a Yankee. Other than that, what bothers you?
I used to like Bonds. I knew he was a bad guy, knew he probably juiced. Then Game of Shadows came out, and I learned about how he took cow steroids, menstrual medication, and everything else…
And I was grossed out to the extent that I could never ever root for him again.
noah,
please tell me joe morgan was a not so distant 6 on your list
Actually, I personally believe OJ killed his wife but that really matters not a whit. As for Bonds, he was my favorite player of the 90’s (attitude or not) and I find it incredibly obtuse for so many to single him out as enemy #1 for steroids when there are many, many to take the blame for that.
Further, I happen to believe in a little theory called “innocent until proven guilty” and even though a simple comparison will show you a size differential between Bonds now and Bonds then, he still hasn’t failed a test since they have been testing in MLB.
In the end, I realize I stand athwart the huge numbers of people that despise Bonds (and would regardless of him chasing Aaron.) But then, most of my favorite players were not nice people (or seemed that way) – Cobb, Rose, Williams. What matters to me is what they do ON the field – not off. And until such time as a.) Bonds fails a test and/or admits usage and b.) MLB takes full responsibility for what occured during the 90’s and early oughts, I will not be getting off the Bonds-wagon. It’s that simple.
If that means my opinion is less respected…OK. If it wasn’t this issue, it would be some other, I imagine, that caused someone to question. 😉
ububba,
I’m sure they’ll be up for it. I surely wouldn’t be too cocky about a team with all those questions on the O-line and in the secondary, though.
And this is a different Vanderbilt team. It actually has talent, experience, and good coaching. That doesn’t mean we’ll win all the games we’re capable of—we’ve still got this ingrained culture of losing to get over—but the program is in much better shape than it was during all those other droughts.
Noah, here’s why I don’t like A-Rod:
1) He’s narcissistic to a fault and a preening ass.
2) He throws teammates and friends under the bus, like when he gave the SI interview in which he dissed Jeter.
3) He has a tendency toward bush league play, like slapping Arroyo’s glove in the playoffs or yelling during the pop-up in Toronto.
4) None of his teammates like him, as evidenced by the fact that none of the Yankees stood up for him after the pop-up.
5) He’s a money-grubbing Boras client, as shown by his J.D. Drew-like season-long flirtation with opting out of his contract in order to get paid $30 million a year.
Does anyone here think O.J. Simpson is innocent? Anyone at all?
Also, Coz, don’t forget that Bonds probably has failed a test. This was when he ridiculously fingered Mark Johnson for the amphetamines that were found in Bonds’ locker (the guy who got his 150th pinch-hit last night) and then finally straightened his story and explained that Johnson hadn’t been taking greenies, though he wouldn’t admit to doing it himself.
This Renteria-for-Garland nonsense reminds me of the trade that got Paul DePodesta fired.
Mike Vick is 1&2 on your Sports list?! Wow, must be part of PETA. This is an off the cuff hated sports figures for me.
1. Bonds
2. Marcus Vick
Yep, those are the only two sports figures I truly hate that I can think of off the top of my head. I dislike ARod, mostly because he seems like an Ass (see the “I got it” incident) and he plays for the Yankees. If ARod were a Brave I’m sure I could overlook his general demeanor.
I almost hate Steinbrenner and BorAss, because they have both done their best to ruin the baseball.
“….and the only way the Teixiera deal happens is if it’s not for Salty.”
Are you John Schuerholz? I think it’s he and Jon Daniels who get to make that decision.
Boras and Steinbrenner operate within the rules and aren’t, as far as anyone knows (or even suspects, right?), breaking any laws. The fault for the consequences of their actions truly does lie completely with MLB, IMO, for enabling it.
Bonds is a different story. MLB has certainly enabled steroid use, but that doesn’t mean Bonds wasn’t cheating or breaking laws by taking them. I don’t think saying MLB bears the full responsibility for his situation is accurate.
After reading Alex R (#2)’s post I change my mind and would like to add ARod to a distant number 3. I don’t think I can overlook is overall demeanor. He is a complete ass.
Stu: You are correct, they are operating within the rules. That doesn’t really make me dislike them less. I still think they are bad for baseball, notwithstanding the fact that they are doing it legally.
Bonds is a cyst on all of humanity, not just baseball.
I’ve become less and less a fan of A-Rod over the last few months, but I continue to take issue with the characterization of his play against Toronto as “bush-league”.
If Humanity was an a–, Bonds would be the hairy pimple on it.
I actually don’t think I’ve ever seen a hairy pimple.
Forget “bush-league,” my little league coach wouldn’t have let me get away with that. It’s just poor sportsmanship.
AAR – As far as I know, Bonds has never failed a test for steroids.
Stu – I did not say MLB is FULLY responsible, only that they are as much to blame as the players (and media for that matter) and should face the ire of the public as Bonds has. Tha they are not suggests that fans don’t wish to blame MLB or really even the players…they don’t have to because they have Bonds, a very convenient devil.
Your little league coach wasn’t very good, then. I thought everyone did that in little league. They certainly did in the leagues in which I played.
Or were you in one of those leagues where every game ends in a “tie”?
Speaking of Vick, the AJC’s Shultz just depressed me even more, reminding us all that we traded the rights to draft LT for the rights to draft Vick.
Yuck.
Coz,
You said:
And until such time as a.) Bonds fails a test and/or admits usage and b.) MLB takes full responsibility for what occured during the 90’s and early oughts, I will not be getting off the Bonds-wagon.
That’s what I was arguing against.
However, I am so very sick of discussing Bonds. I am not going to change anyones mind and they won’t be changing mine. I’d much rather discuss the Braves (especially given the title of this blog.) 😉
Re: Arod
I think a lot of the hate stems from his contract. If he was not paid 25mil per season, he would be a lot more liked. I can’t blame him for signing the deal. We all would do that if it’s being offered.
Re: Renteria
That got way more discussion than deserved. JS does this every year. Clearly a smokescreen, although I would bet it is a possibility this offseason. He is prime trade bait in the winter, but not now.
Stu – I apologize. I should have been more clear – until they take full responsibility for their part – that is, looking the other way.
Look, Bonds is just as guilty of taking steroids as Sosa, McGwire, Giambi et all.
The difference for me is that he’s a nasty, arrogant prick. Plain and simple.
I don’t hate say Giambi nearly as much because he’s at least being a nice guy, signing autographs, and not ripping everyone in the press like they are children.
So, while the steroid use maybe no different, Bonds to me is the worst of the human beings. The way he treats people and talks to people is completely bush league and I can’t think of a less deserving human being or a person I root against harder (maybe T.O. and now Vick) then Barry Freaking Bonds.
Or were you in one of those leagues where every game ends in a “tie”?
That made me laugh out loud. No I wasn’t in one of those leagues, and thankfully I didn’t get any medals for being in last place either.
You may disagree, but to me, what ARod did was poor sportsmanship. You only get away with that when you are playing sandlot baseball and kidding around.
PETA? Do you really have to be a member of a sociopathic group of nitwits to have a problem with dog-fighting??
I hated Vick long before the most recent batch of trouble.
He willfully had unprotected sex with a girl when he knew he had herpes.
What more do you really need to say about someone?
But wait! There’s more!
There’s his refusal to cut ties with the criminal thugs that he keeps on his payroll. Even after they get busted driving his car with pot, even after they get arrested for stealing a Rolex in an airport, even after the Falcons gave him a $130 million contract and BEGGED him to grow up….he wouldn’t do it.
And yeah, I think dog-fighting is abhorent. I think it ranks right alongside murder-for-hire and child pornography in terms of subhuman behavior.
We’re talking about people who’ve ruined pit bulls as a breed…a breed that has a long and noble history of proud service to humans. We’re talking about people who steal dogs and grab strays, wire their mouths shut and use them as bait for pit bulls that have been bred for killing.
Dogs are a reflection of our humanity. Even if you don’t like dogs, unless you’re simply a monster, you’d never willfully hit or kick one (to say nothing of paying to see one ripped to shreds). Just as you wouldn’t walk up to one and punch it in the mouth. Even if you can’t stand little kids, you wouldn’t do that.
People arrested for dog-fighting are something like 500 percent more likely to be arrested for violent crimes against people.
So yeah, Vick goes on my list twice. Clinton Portis is on the list at #6.
158 — here is the link to the SEC previews.
http://secpreviews.wordpress.com/
“The difference for me is that he’s a nasty, arrogant prick. Plain and simple.”
I concur completely with that statement. I’ll stop on the topic.
I’ll go along with AAR’s list. I’d forgotten about #3 and #4.
Well the PETA reference was an obvious joke. I was just surprised that he was on the list twice. I don’t hate him, because I don’t think he is an asshole. I just think he is a complete moron and it is a shame that he gets paid millions. I went to Virginia Tech, and I am embarassed to call either Vick fellow students.
I don’t even hate OJ. I think he is guilty, but I don’t hate him. My “hate,” which is a strong word and probably innacurate, stems more from players grating personalities.
I think OJ and Michael Vick are both wastes of oxygen.
In reference to the Arod play in Toronto, I have a feeling that kind of stuff happens every week in baseball. That is the reason no yankee was talking about it.
You save the “hate” for grating personalities, but you just nonchalantly dismiss murderers and dog abusers? That’s…different.
Stu,
I hope you weren’t referring to me: I hate Bonds, Vick and OJ.
And Vick and OJ are worse because they physically damaged or destroyed other people or animals.
Vick & OJ belong in prison. Bonds, as a tax evader, at the very least should spend 18 months in a country club, Martha Stewart type of prison.
Look at Ken Lay…why do the richest people always feel the need for the even bigger money grab, illegally?
I was referring to JDMaker1, who referenced “grating personalities”, Alex.
i generally use the term “loathe” when describing my feelings for many on-air personalities such as thiesman, chip, joe morgan, and the bulk of ESPNers
I generally use the term “ignore”.
I thought so, just wanted to make sure 😉
Plus, you know how normally shy I am anyway, stating my opinions.
Well, Stu, it’s hard to ignore some of these morons, like Joe Morgan, when they are doing the Braves game.
Thank goodness for the mute button.
Marcus, Michael, Jimmy Williams… man the tidewater region of VA sure know how to raise boys right.
what was that stu? 😉
At least it gave us Pharrell though.
But, Alex, the mute button is exactly what makes it not-hard.
#191, Josh, I know that little mind games are part of the game of baseball. But after the game, A-Rod was roundly criticized by everyone in the Toronto dugout, and defended by NO ONE in the Yankee dugout. That speaks volumes.
I’m really proud to have convinced Noah and JDMaker that A-Rod’s a jerk! I’m actually ridiculously pleased with myself right now.
But after the game, A-Rod was roundly criticized by everyone in the Toronto dugout, and defended by NO ONE in the Yankee dugout. That speaks volumes.
Yes, if you’re of the opinion that the Yankee dugout is an authority on what is considered “bush-league”.
I think their failure to defend him had more to do with their regard for him as a person than with their feelings about that particular play.
AAR – You should be, even though it could not of been that difficult. A-Rod makes that particular argument rather easy. 😉
joshtothemaxx-
Allen Iverson, who raped a girl in High School and got away with it, also from the tidewater area.
It’s apparently more like the “Turdwater” area.
Gotta love our Yelly Johnobar platoon. From Heyman in SI:
The Padres should look to upgrade at second base, where Marcus Giles is batting .238 and has slipped in each month (from .327 in April to .220 in May, .208 in June and .167 in July).
And Aaron Harang still trying to crack Alex R.’s list:
Has anyone noticed that Reds starter Aaron Harang, who pitched 10 innings but got a no-decision in Cincy’s win over Milwaukee on Monday, is 10-2 for a last-place team? The Reds are 17-5 in games started by Harang and 25-53 otherwise.
my issue tends to occur when i don’t have access to the game on radio or gameday audio, and stuck watching and listening to these morons. all i can think of is all the coments posted here about how these guys give the term “moron” a bad name.
but for the most part i’ve got my braves’ radio to listen to (thanks skip & pete, you guys keep me going) and bravesjournal to vent on. thank god for the little things!
Gandhi: “You can tell a lot about a nation by the way it treats its animals”.
I should say, if you’re of the opinion that the Yankee dugout is the authority on what is considered “bush-league”.
It certainly carries substantial weight. But I am highly skeptical that there aren’t other dugouts by which such action would be heavily defended, so I can’t see taking the Yankee Position on this issue, when, as I’ve said, they already have separate grounds for not coming to A-Rod’s defense, as conclusive proof.
AlexR, Where did the Iverson raping a girl in high school come from? I’ve never heard that, but I assume you wouldn’t just throw out random gossip either.
I still think we should look into acquiring Harang instead of Arroyo – cost less and just as effective.
I don’t like Bonds for lots of things but there are a hell of a lot of people in the world far worse than Bonds that do a lot worse things. He is a nasty guy but hardly on the level of some of the people mentioned. I guess my basic feeling is I just don’t give a damn anymore about Bonds. Break the record, get it over and go DH next year.
As for A-Rod, I have never understood the animosity toward him, although I grant he has generally made greed his credo. But that’s true of a lot of people. He seems like a decent guy–certainly more likeable than Bonds. As for saying his teammates don’t like him, how do you know? Boras is an asshole with few scruples but baseball is getting what it asked for by screwing the players all those years. All he is doing is taking advantage of the free market and doing it better than others. But it was inappropriate for him to go after Jason Stark for saying Andruw is overrated; that’s simply an opinion and Boras has no business trying to intimidate the media.
JoshQ-
He got away with it but it’s why a lot of colleges wouldn’t touch him. He also physically choked this young woman.
Stu: Well I hate Bonds & ARod for their “on-field” or sports based actions. Vick and OJ did stuff off the field.
I don’t hate them, I think they should be in jail for a very long time. There are no repercussions for Bonds or ARod.
Harang is having a Steve Carlton in 1972 year, except that instead of not talking to the press willingly, he’s not talking to the press because he’s in Cincinnati and nobody cares what happens there.
I have come around on Aaron harang being a great pitcher, after seeing his performance in Atlanta.
That being said, he’s not a pitcher I would currently trade Rentaria for duringisinter.
There are no repercussions for Bonds or ARod.
Bonds will be dead in, like, 5 years. A-Rod apparently has few friends and must find comfort in she-male strippers.
not sure what happened…I was trying to say I would be open to Harang for Renty this Winer.
the blonde with A-Rod was a she male? I hadn’t heard that.
According to the catty other stripper who was bitter about A-Rod not wanting her to dance for him, yes.
Bonds will be dead in, like, 5 years. A-Rod apparently has few friends and must find comfort in she-male strippers.
That’s priceless. Bonds is going to fall apart, but he’ll still have the record, that is of course if Tanya Harding doesn’t resurface. I’m sure she is strapped for cash.
I think Mac should put that comment in the place of Woodward delenda est
God, it’s hard to live without baseball-reference.com. It’s just not fair.
What? It’s still up. o.o
I can pretty much guarantee that if we’re up B-R is up.
*laughs* Yep.
I just realized that no one even responded, good or bad, to the Renteria/Jeter comparison. I feel so invisible.
LOL, Stu.
I felt that was a very fair comparison. Edgar has had a terrific MLB career and with the exception of one bad season in Boston, has definitely been a comparable player.
I imagine Jeter gets the edge in the “sleeping with lots of gorgeous, single women” department.
Okay, then maybe my employer’s firewall is ONLY blocking baseball-reference.com… which is even less fair…
Quit your job.
Here’s a review of what we learned today:
1. We are not trading Edgar for Garland, that’s dumb.
2. We should trade Salty for Tex, that makes sense.
3. More people like Aaron Harang then Yunel Escobar.
4. Barry Bonds is a cheating jerk.
5. Most people hate A-Rod.
6. Edgar is just as good as Jeter.
7. People from the Tidewater area of Virginia are scary human beings. Michael Vick should be in jail.
9. McCann is great but needs to improve his defense.
10. JS may apparently enjoy toying with know nothing sports writers like Peter Gammons.
11. Noah is not Tony.
Did I miss anything?
Alex. R,
Nope, that’s pretty much the gist of it all. 🙂
FYI:
The Corey’s are back.
If someone mis-placed Corey Haim and Corey Feldman, they have apparently been found.
We can call off the police search. Apparently, they have a reality show premiering tonight.
I won’t watch it unless I hear it’s going to be as good as the film, “License to Drive”.
Oh, and I learned that if my employer doesn’t permit me to access Baseball-reference, I should quit my job.
Great summary Alex. LOL.
And thank God you reminded me about The Coreys! Feldman still seems fairly normal, but Haim looks…no idea what happened to that kid. But I must watch to find out. Maybe a double-header with License to Drive or The Lost Boys. 😉
I’m not a reality-tv fan at all. But I couldn’t help but watch a little of the Surreal Life (was it the first year it was on?) when Corey Feldman was a cast member.
I had no idea what a snivelling little puss he was.
Didn’t Robot Chicken do a little sketch about the Corey’s hanging out and being superheroes or something?
And may we also deduce that Edgar Renteria would no longer be underrated as a player if he had a designer cologne named after him?
the sad part about tonight…feldman’s the normal one.
Coz-
“Lost Boys” is a great movie. If only for the early days of Jack Bauer with some bad ass fangs.
Re: #239
I guess that’s really a chicken-and-egg question, so never mind.
From DOB, Bobby Cox said that Julio will start on Tuesday and Wednesday and get the day off on Thursday.
I really think Edgar wouldn’t be nearly as underrated if he hadn’t sucked in Boston. It always seemed like he was a highly respected young player when he was with Florida (at least to the degree that say Hanley Ramirez is now a highly respected young player with them) and he was widely looked at as the best shortstop in the National League when he was with St. Louis.
But then he goes to Boston, which is one of three teams that the national media actually pays any attention to whatsoever, and doesn’t play well, so now it seems like they all just have forgotten about him or something.
Doesn’t bother me, as it caused us to be able to get him for absolutely nothing, but I think his bad year in Boston is what really hurt his reputation in the national media.
Crissakes with Julio! I bet Cox doesn’t even want Texeira. It would take away Julio’s playing time.
Alex – you are right. In my haste to find two silly movies with both Coreys, I included a legit one. Perhaps I should have said Dream a Little Dream, instead. 😉
Don’t forget the straight-to-video, “Blown Away,” whose only redeemable feature seems to be a couple of scenes featuring the pre-implant chest of Nicole Eggert.
@238
Yeah, RC did a sketch with the Feldmans. They had to go find the Bush twins who crashed in South America because they were drunk and of course they partied in South America and were drunk. You know, the usual. That one was one of the better skits. 🙂
It drives me crazy, though, that people keep saying that Edgar is a “National League type player” just because he had one less-than-stellar year in the AL. What does that even mean? It’s not like he bunts a lot and steals bases. I think the problem–to the extent there was one–was not that Edgar is a “National League type player” but that he was overwhelmed by the ridiculous amount of pressure that goes along with playing in Boston in front of psychotic Red Sox Nation. And notice, the Red Sox haven’t exactly done well with shortstops lately.
Marc,
That’s it. It’s some sort of American League superiority complex or something. Heh heh.
Sam,
Yeah, I guess the American League superiority causes the ball to bounce differently on the infield and National Leaguers just can’t handle it.
Marc – apparently it means only National League fans can appreciate him. Sounds about right to me…
Well, until we win a friggin’ all star game, the stupid AL and their evil DH get to feel superior.
I hate you Tony LaSucka.
Nick-
Great point about the national media and Boston. Being in Boston over the weekend, the people there act like you’re an alien being from another planet if yuo don’t care about the Sox.
I was in a sports bar near fenway on Friday night and the bar had about 50 flat screens…all with the Boston/Chisox game.
Ahh, yes, “Blown Away”…Nicole Eggart was smokin’ hot in that one.
And Coz, don’t be embarrassed…i think we’ve all tried to forget “Dream A Little Dream”. Jason Robards isn’t alive anymore but I bet he is still trying to shake that he showed up in that movie.
I never saw that Blown Away. But I really liked the dumb-but-great Blown Away with Jeff Bridges, Lloyd Bridges, and Tommy Lee Jones as a mad IRA bomber.
That was pretty good, AAR. I believe there are like 5 movies with that title?
Ok, there are actually 4:
http://www.imdb.com/find?s=all&q=blown+away
Stu,
You are Vandy.
We are Georgia.
We’re talking about Division 1 football.
I’ll go along with the pattern of history in this “rivalry” for one more year.
But, I gotta say, it is cute to hear a Vandy man admonish Georgia man about his football team.
ububba,
I thought it was rather adorable as well. I heard Bobby Johnson is next going to call out Pete Carroll.
(I do love though that Bobby Johnson looks like Steve Martin!)
Down to Braves and Red Sox?
With less than a week to go until the trade deadline, it’s looking more and more as though Mark Teixeira’s days as a Ranger are numbered in single digits.
According to multiple Major League sources, trade talks centering on the Texas first baseman have intensified in the last 24 hours.
Though six teams — the Atlanta Braves, Boston Red Sox, Los Angeles Angels of Anaheim, Los Angeles Dodgers, New York Yankees and San Francisco Giants — were among the clubs most active in their pursuit of Teixeira, as of midday on Tuesday, is appears that the Yankees and the three California teams, while not completely dropping out of the picture, are not in the forefront, either.
http://mlb.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20070724&content_id=2105789&vkey=news_mlb&fext=.jsp&c_id=mlb
Nice. Time for a battle of the prospects then, I suppose.
Sam,
I could handle that. I’d take Salty in a fistfight over Ellsbury or Bucholz for the rights to Teixeira.
ububba,
Who said it was a rivalry?
Stu also thinks that Vandy will be favored hosting Alabama, suggesting that he doesn’t know how setting betting lines works.
I like a feisty Vandy man.
I know this, Mac:
Vandy, with an inexperienced QB in his first SEC road game, lost by 3 in Tuscaloosa.
This game is in Nashville.
Vandy returns 17(!) starters.
I said we’d be favored by 1 or 2, and you said Bama will be favored by at least 10. I am 100% confident that, barring some injury to Nickson or Bennett, I will be closer to right than you.
Clearly if he goes to Boston and fails, he’ll be a National League-style hitter, despite being a power-hitting first baseman.
… who had been in the AL his entire career.
Jeff Pearlman on Bonds in Deadspin. Here’s a good bit:
Also:
“I interviewed more than 500 people for my book, and the hardest thing was finding anyone with a positive thing to say about Bonds.”
First off… Alex R, congrats on the boy on the way. My first child, a boy, was born a few months ago. I took him to see the Braves in Milwaukee when he was just a few weeks old (and used him to get Pete Moylan to sign my ticket). He’s got a glove already too. Hopefully he’ll like baseball (it’ll be hard for me to not force him to).
Here’s where I come in on a few of the topics of discussion:
1 — Make the deal for Tex. A week ago I wouldn’t have said that… but 1B has just been a black hole.
2 — Despite the terrible 1B play, I still would have made the trade for Gonzalez. Ahhh, what could have been…
3 — I’ll understand if Saltalamacchia isn’t traded. It’d be fine with me if he gets to work on 1B this winter and spring to see if he can handle it. I think he’s kinda big for a catcher… don’t know if he’ll catch his whole career anyway.
4 — Trade Escobar.
5 — Garland’s never impressed. seems to be a smokescreen.
6 — Barry has always been on top of the mlb “athletes i’d most like to punch in the face” list. Kobe usually tops out the nba list.
7 — signing mccann was a great move.
8 — frenchy kills me the way he won’t take a pitch. he probably came up a little early. at the end of the day, i think he’ll be really good… sign him.
i guess that’s about it…
Stu:
I know this, Mac:
Vandy, with an inexperienced QB in his first SEC road game, lost by 3 in Tuscaloosa.
This game is in Nashville.
Vandy returns 17(!) starters.
One small variable you’re overlooking–Alabama doesn’t have Shula anymore. We also barely beat Duke and Ole Miss at home. The talent is there, and now the coaching is too.
More importantly, that doesn’t matter. The line is driven by who bets on a game, and Alabama fans outnumber Vandy fans by 10:1, at least.
Why would San Fran be looking for Tex? It’s not like they are going to contend this year in that division.
That Deadspin bit is blisteringly fun to read.
The Saban point is valid as far as the point spread goes (he’s easily a 3-point boost), but he won’t make much of a difference on the field, at least not in early 2007.
That’s true, Mac, but I think when you account for all those who are “fans” of neither and will be betting on the game, the number will be brought down.
You don’t think all those taking Alabama by 16 at home last year will think twice before puffing up the spread this time?
Stu, you must not watched much of Alabama the last few years. Shula was about as bad a gameday coach as there was. I have to believe that even a DECENT coach would have meant 2-3 more wins last year, and the same this coming year.
Murphy-
Thanks. It’s very exciting for my wife & I. He’s due on November 28th, right after Thanksgiving. Another way for me to look at it is that he’s due in between the Georgia/Georgia Tech game and the SEC Championship.
It sure sounds like JS is going in for the kill on Tex…let’s hope so. I love Julio, but no way do I want him playing all or even half the time.
And if the spread does get as high as 10, there will be an awful lot of Vandy fans making money—the rich getting richer, I suppose.
Alex,
Congrats!
Get those Bulldog spit bibs ready.
Stu,
As a Georgia fan, even with out offensive line newbies and questions on defense, I would have felt very confident for the Dawgs going into Tuscaloosa this year–if Shula was the coach.
But with Saban there, that game got infinitely harder for the Dawgs–and for everyone else in the SEC.
Since Saban still hasn’t filled the roster yet with his type of guys, I will likely take Bama by 3 on the road.
But I agree, 10 points would be way too high.
Bama by 3 on the road over Vandy.
I still like my boys by maybe 1-2 points in Tuscaloosa.
Thanks, ububba…believe me, we have friends already ordering the bibs and onesies with Dawgs stuff all over it.
#267: 6 — Barry has always been on top of the mlb “athletes i’d most like to punch in the face” list. Kobe usually tops out the nba list.
The first thought through my head: “Wait, who would want to punch Kevin Barry in the face?”
My second thought: “Ohhhhh. Right.”
They don’t think. My grandfather was a bookie, the best piece of advice he ever gave me was “Don’t bet on Alabama, the Bama fans drive up the spread every week.” That’s just how it is.
I will add to what Disgruntled said… Alabama, in turn, had an inexperienced quarterback in his first SEC game, has 16 starters back, and I was at the game last year and the game was not that close. Vandy had about five players who could have played for Bama, and physically dominated the game, and should have won by at least 16. Shula basically singlehandedly let Vandy get close by sitting on his hands in the fourth quarter.
Oh, and we don’t lose to Vandy. Ever.
Alex,
A Bama-by-3 line wouldn’t be unreasonable. Big difference between 3 and 10.
Let Vandy get close? We led by 7 at halftime and didn’t trail until the 4th quarter.
Vandy has a lot more than 5 players who could play for Bama. The talent gap has narrowed.
And if you don’t think there’s a difference between being a rookie QB in the SEC at home and being one on the road, I don’t know what to tell you.
Stu-
If the spread is Bama by 10 in Nashville, I am betting Vandy.
I love Bama, my 2nd favorite team in fact after the Dawgs, but one thing I saw a lot in the Shula years was Bama’s inability to ever cover a spread.
That will no doubt change under Saban, I am just not sure he has enough weapons yet to see that change this year.
If I am projecting now, I would say a score of Bama 20, Vandy 17 for this season.
To your last post, Stu, no, the talent gap has not narrowed…Vandy has a lot of good veterans back and will make this a competitive game at home, but no, talent-wise, there is no comparison.
If I’m in Vegas, I can’t think of anything making me feel smarter than betting on Vandy over Bama & winning.
Of course, losing such a bet would have me reaching for bug poison.
What nobody seems to realize is that the Bama-Vandy score doesn’t totally depend on Bama’s performance. This Vanderbilt team is markedly more physical and athletic than any team in our history. It’s much, much better than the 2005 team, the only one in recent memory that could really be described as “good” or “dangerous”.
Only time will tell, I guess, but I sure would love to be the football team making others eat crow for once!
If the game is that low-scoring, Alex, Vandy might win. I don’t think it will be. Alabama’s strength is on offense, particularly at the receiver positions. 31-23, Bama.
Yes, Alex, it has, and if you don’t see that, it’s because you’re choosing not to look.
If Alabama’s strength is on offense, Mac, Vandy will score more than 23.
Stu…I definitely think Vandy plays smart and they play hard and are well coached by Johnson. Again, I expect the Bama/Vandy game to be very close this year.
Stu,
Vandy simply doesn’t get the level of talent that go to schools like Bama, Georgia, Fla, LSU, Tenn, Auburn & South Carolina. Not even the talent that goes to Arkansas.
It’s a credit to Bobby Johnson as to how close Vandy has played good teams, or even pulled upsets (like the game with the Dawgs in 2006).
But the talent gap is a different tier.
I didn’t say the talent was equal. I said it has narrowed. For example, as I mentioned earlier, we have 3 preseason All-SEC first-teamers. All 3 (Bennett, Williams, Goff) are projected to be first-day (maybe even first round) selections in next year’s NFL Draft. When was the last time a Vandy team had that kind of talent? No, it’s not at Florida’s or Tennessee’s or LSU’s level, but it’s much, much improved.
And another thing: Recruiting is a very inexact science. Jay Cutler was offered exactly 2 Division 1 football scholarships coming out of high school (and Vandy was the only one to offer him as a QB), and he turned into the new face of the Denver Broncos. He’s just one example. This coaching staff has done an outstanding job of finding under-the-radar types who are capable of playing SEC-and-higher levels of football.
And then there’s the over-the-radar types who just don’t get credit because they go to Vanderbilt. Let’s take 2 wonderful examples:
First, Greg Billinger, a DT in our 2006 class who had originally committed to UGA. The week he announced his de-commitment to the Dawgs and said he was coming to Vandy, Rivals dropped him from a 3-star to a 2-star prospect.
Second (my favorite), Kareem Jackson, a defensive back in the 2007 class. While a commit to Vanderbilt, he was a 2-star. Then, he failed to qualify academically, Vandy rescinded their offer, and Saban swooped in. Within days, Rivals “reevaluated” him, and he jumped to 4-star (!) status.
What you need to look at are the guys on the field. Vandy has some players. We should make a bowl this year. If we played in any other division but the SEC East, it would be a virtual lock. This is a very good, very talented team.
I fully expect the Vandy game to be very close again. We have a lot of question marks, esp. the front seven on defense. Our offense has some talent (D.J. Hall, Andre Smith, and Antoine Caldwell) that will all play on Sunday’s, too, but we still have A LOT to prove elsewhere.
Oh and recruiting rankings don’t mean @#$^, ’bout like E!SPN’s player rankings.
Toss it up — in some weird braves journal way matt morris will look like the guy, that me, and others, described to be harang. let’s hope i am wrong.
Great thread–let me add a word about A-Rod. I like AAR’s list though it is not exhaustive.
In any case, I was watching the game last Friday when Tampa Bay managed to beat the Yanks. Mussina could not throw a strike and had a 40 pitch 25 minute inning. In the bottom of the inning the first two Yanks were out on 4 pitches–up steps A-Rod. Does he take a pitch for Mussina’s sake or take any extra time coming to the plate? Swings at the first pitch, grounds out and a pissed Mussina staggered out to the mound….
Otherwise, lets get Teixeria and Go VANDY!!
Wryn’s thoughts:
Vandy plays Auburn very very close in Auburn. A trap game for Auburn, who plays @ Florida, Vandy, @ Arkansas, @ LSU over a four-week span.
Auburn 22, Vandy 20 – but I wouldn’t be surprised to see Vandy win by two scores.
“This coaching staff has done an outstanding job of finding under-the-radar types who are capable of playing SEC-and-higher levels of football.”
Bobby Johnson was a Dick Sheridan protege, wasn’t he? He’s got five or six of the coaches that were at NC State on Dick Sheridan’s and Mike O’Cain’s staff. They did a good job of finding diamonds in the rough there as well.
Koren Robinson, Adrian Wilson, Levar Fisher, Chris Colmer…none of those guys were highly-regarded and played (or are still playing) in the NFL.
It was not unusual at all for those staff’s to land a guy who NO ONE was recruiting and then have the guy be a star in college.