ESPN.com – MLB – Box Score – Braves at Marlins
I want to make a pitch to the Emmy Awards nominating committee next month when the Emmy nominees are announced.
Forget “Scrubs”, “Arrested Development” or “The Office”, the best sitcom on Television is Atlanta Braves Baseball.
Forget Steve Carrell or Larry David…Bobby Cox makes me laugh harder when he tries to look stern in the dugout like he is going to “manage” us back to victory.
This is beyond pathetic. A 5-2 lead to the stinking Marlins goes by the way side because our new “closer” Ken Ray, decides to do his best impression of Judy Reitsma (speaking of comedy).
The Braves can look at this game and officially see the 2006 season is over. We can make changes…we can ship Oscar Villareal, Mike Remlinger and every other bad reliever away and it won’t stop the pain, it won’t stop the bad pitching, the bad hitting or the bad fielding.
Our “hero” Andruw Jones, had a big opportunity with the bases loaded and 1 out in the 8th to simply hit a fly ball and get a Sac Fly RBI. Strikeout. Jeff Francoeur–strikeout. In the 9th inning, Matt Diaz continues to kill Florida pitching only to be left stranded by his good friends LaRoche and Betemit.
But the topper tonight is the comical, Bob Uecker-like bottom of the 10th Inning when Oscar the Vulture comes in and puts 2 runners on before I have even had a chance to get back into the seated position. Then the great Mike Remlinger comes in and after a hunt is laid down, Remy decides to throw the ball over Marcus’ head (covering 3rd Base) and allow the Marlins to help the Bad News Braves lose again.
I am beyond weapons. I am beyond taking hostages. I am asking for the “mercy rule” to be put into effect on this season in June. We are about to play Boston, Toronto and the Yankees and the Braves will resemble the 1985 Bob Horner squad by the time this is all over.
The good news? We may all finally get a chance to see some of these kids play and some of these veterans like Villareal, Pratt, Remlinger and Jordan FINALLY end their tenures in Braves uniforms. This is sad and not the Braves we know & love. I am going to weep now…have at it w/ more pained comments.
Alex, not that it’s important, but it was Chipper who was covering third base.
Well, Bobby obviously didn’t make his best decisions tonight. However, the fact is obvious, this team sucks. In fact, this team starting off the season is WORSE then last year’s team. JS tried Edgar to replace Furcal with obvious question marks, and he found NO replacement for Farnsworth and Hampton. Yes, the market condition of the last offseason sucked, but not improving a team during the offseason is as big of a sin as a GM can make.
The Braves aren’t paying Edgar more than they paid Furcal last season. What happened to the monies Chipper gave back? What happened to the Hampton insurance monies? What the hell happened?
Whatever happened to that really good player we have named McCann? Shouldn’t he be like, starting and stuff?
No, haze. We have Todd Pratt.
Oh, Brad, I think there is also a curse on the Braves’ backup catchers. I honestly thought Pratt would be a great backup catcher, but the Braves end up having another Eddie Perez. Honestly, looking at Pratt’s record, I don’t expect a 170 points decrease in OPS from him…
Out of curiosity…
I know games can be saved in the 8th just as well as they can in the 9th, and that some on this board have argued your closer should sometimes be brought in in the 8th. I agree with that, but was wondering who everyone thinks would have pitched the 9th if Ray had held it in the 8th. Ray for a second inning? Remlinger? We really don’t have anybody…
kc-
I disagree. A bigger sin would have been over-paying on someone like Todd Jones or Kyle Farnsworth. Would you honestly want to be paying a reliever wtih an era north of 4.50 and a whip larger than 1.50 more than 5 million a year? Out of the “closers” that were out there, less than half have been worth anything. The Braves didn’t get any bad contracts, and the one big move they made (Renteria) seems to have been a very good one.
Also, what moves in particular that Cox made bothered you? Did he bring in the “closer” too soon? That really did seem like a good move at the time.
And who would you have prefered he bring in instead of Villareal and Remlinger? Frankly, there isn’t an arm in that pen that I would have liked to see in at that point. I can see complaining about renteria laying down a bunt, but I’ll take 2nd and 3rd with 1 out and Chipper and Andruw coming to the plate. Seemed like a very good move at the time. And even though he started Jordan and Pratt, we still scored 5, which should have been enouh to win.
The thing that bugs me the most is that tonight it was all bullpen. Everything else was working so smootly, and then Ray (of all people) comes in and blows it.
But yeah. This was very depressing. My kingdom for a frickin sac fly.
Maybe we should see if Tim Hudson would be good for about 20 pitches on his off days to help prevent these 9th inning disasters. And 8th inning disasters. And 7th. Okay, 40 pitches. Just something to think about. He’s young! Kind of.
“I agree with that, but was wondering who everyone thinks would have pitched the 9th if Ray had held it in the 8th.”
Who cares? It’s Wes Helms, right? Am I right?
What happened to Mac? Suicide?
the espn morons are ripping us left and right. problem is they’re right.
this is so depressing.
I don’t care that ESPN is ripping the Braves. It’s the Mets butt-kissing love fest on ESPN that just literally makes me ill. It’s all New York, all the time. Mets this, Yankees that, Jets, Giants and Knicks, blah blah blah blah blah.
A few ideas with what’s on hand now-
Release Pratt, Jordan, Orr
Demote Francoeur to AAA for at least 30 days. If he can’t walk in 10% of his PAs, keep him there for the rest of the season. Ask Delta to cancel those ads.
Bring up Brayan Pena, give him 30-40% of the PT at C
Have McCann play 1B half the time when not catching
Bring up Pena Jr. in the “Belliard role”
(Not ready to give up on Giles just yet)
Bring up Thorman as PH/ OF?
Release Reitsma, Remlinger
Bring up Chuck James for the rotation
Bring up Startup in low-leverage situations (6th-7th inning)
Make Sosa 8th-inning setup man
Make Villareal a mop-up man
mraver, bringing in a closer in the 8th inning NEVER works unless the closers are Rivera and Smoltz. I have just seen that mistake made by the other teams way too many times, and I said it was a dumb decision even before Ray made his first pitch in the eighth. Not even Hoffman and Wagner have much success in getting a six-out saves, and what do we have? Ray?
BTW, Cox’s on-field management has bothered me for the past 15 years. In-game strategy is not his strength. Even a HOF manager can have weaknesses.
Also, I have pointed out way back in the offseason that the Braves’ problem is not only closer. I have worried about the starting rotation way back then. Smoltz and Hudson are great, but having Thomson, HoRam, Sosa, and Davies as options for 3-5 spots in the starting rotation concerned me. JS could have upgraded the rotation, but he sat tight.
I concerned about the offense with so many young kids with Frenchy, McCann, Langerhans, and KJ. I strongly believe we need a better first baseman than LaRoche to keep this offense going, particularly with Furcal not coming back. So, what did JS do to improve the offense? Traded our best prospect for a question mark in Edgar and did nothing else. This left the team with no alternatives or covers when the kids struggle.
Seriously, JS placed the team into the corner with no alternatives, and we have nobody to blame but JS. He could have improved the offense, he could have improved the starting pitching, and he could have improved the bullpen. However, he did none of the above except for replacing Furcal’s offense (not the defense obviously).
In other news, Dan Kolb gave up a walk-off three run homer to the Reds. Good times, good times.
“the espn morons are ripping us left and right. problem is they’re right.”
Well, they’re right, but they’re also petty. They’ve been waiting at least half a decade to do this. The anti-Braves bias has been discussed on this board before, I think. It’s as if the talking heads begrudgingly had to admit the Braves were something special all those years, but they were licking their chops, waiting for it all to fall apart.
Well look at the bright side gang…apples are not only delicious, but they’re good for you!
I can’t believe Remlinger said these…from AJC…
“Remlinger obviously felt that Jones might have been able to get a glove on the ball. “Ask Chipper if it was catchable,” the veteran reliever snapped in disgust. “I don’t know. I just threw it.””
…seriously, I don’t expect Chipper to be able to jump high with his bad legs, besides, I don’t think any normal third baseman would expect such a high throw. Remmy, please don’t blame others for your own fault. Now, I hate this guy even more than before.
If Chuck James gets called up, I’d like to see Thomson go the ‘pen and not Sosa simply because Thomson might actually bring some balance to the bullpen. Sosa will just be another goddamned wildcard, and we’ve got plenty of those already. When Sosa starts, just hope to Christ you score six or more runs.
Where is Chuck James? He should have been called up a long time ago.
I just came here because I read Remlinger’s quotes on the AJC. Unbelievable. This is headed downhill faster than any of us can even imagine. Something must be gone NOW. Roster moves need to happen tomorrow. Time is wasting. This laid back attitude from Cox of “well it’s still on June,” bs is not working. Can anybody remember public comments like that from teammates in the press ??? I can’t EVER think of any.
The most infuriating thing is the excuses. There is a whole lot of “oh, we played good, we just didn’t get any breaks” comments from Cox, Chipper, and Francouer. The lack of cluth hitting and costly errors are indicative of not playing well. How do you load the bases and NOT SCORE? I understand a need to stay positive during hard times, but there is a real lack of urgency that is really troubling.
The philosophy of Bobby is that sense of urgency will tense up the players which will lead to even more errors and miscues. Whether you agree with this school of thought or not, that’s what the old man believes in.
Who’s ready for next year?
The sad part is when we were 3.5 back I thought this board was excessively negative and pessimistic about the Braves. Well the Braves decided to play down to the level of the comments.
I can’t really say whats wrong. I thought we would make a run in the postseason the last few years and we didnt. I thought we would have had the streak end a couple years ago (after sheff and Javy and glavine left) and we didn’t.
I think that a baseball team can only be pushed so far before it just keeps sliding and we are past that point. I think bringing back and then sticking w/ Reitsma was probably the dumbest thing I’ve seen this organization do in a long time. I think our style has always been to grit our teeth and wait for things to fall into place and they have. The only problem is that when you grit and wait and things fall apart its too late to do anything.
I think this is probably the best thing for the Braves’ franchise at this point. If we fall flat on our face this year, you know we’ll be back next year. Maybe we’ll make some wholesale changes that can allow us to go deep into the postseason. Maybe we’ve survived for the last few years on fumes and need to be reset in order to make a World Series run.
I think it will be interesting to see what Smoltz, Chipper, and Bobby do. They haven’t tasted this kind of losing in the last 15 years and I hope they get pushed and push back. JS is a warrior and will do what he thinks must be done. Failure will allow him to do unpopular wholesale maneuvers he couldn’t do otherwise.
I think the idea that people get lazy with a little success is true. I’ve felt it in my own life. Failure may be the best thing for the Braves.
I’ll still be watching. I never gave a damn about the streak anyway- just playing well, watching Andruw hit moon shots, and October glory.
did anyone have a problem with the fact that Cox had the best hitter in the lineup (Renteria) bunt with two on and no one out and a chance to take the lead?
I’m not giving up on the division or the wildcard just yet, but I am close.
My biggest problem was not the Renteria bunt, but bringing in Villarreal. He is so going to be the new Reitsma/Kolb.
Also, I seriously think it’s time for a “free whoever” movement. Only question is: who needs to be freed more, Wilson Betemit or Chuck James? You can’t do two at once in my opinion.
JS freed Dayton Moore.
I think Villarreal might be worse than Chris Reitsma. When he hit Ross, after McCann set up low and away, I wanted jump on the field and charge the mound for him. It’s not even safe to have him pitching.
Then thing that has always bothered me the most about trusting Ray, is that even though his stats this season have been good, deep down I never had trust in him. Like, I still have no trust in HoRam.
Has Thomson contracted some sort of medical condition that makes him sweat like that? I don’t recall him doing that until this year.
Nothing like Jorge Sosa on the mound to avoid a sweep..
Earlier, on this board, someone suggested (in their wholesale changes) that Villareal should be a mop up man.
Um, no.
Villareal and Remlinger both have to go.
Just like Judy Reitsma lost his/her respect with me when it turns out JUDY was hiding his/her numbness, Remlinger making a snide comment on Chipper’s defense it completely inexcusable. That throw would have been an error to David Wright or Scott Rolen.
F— MIKE REMLINGER. F— HIM.
Seriously, if that’s Mike’s comments, pack your goddamned suitcase you old, wrinkly pathetic squid and get the f— off the Braves.
None of us on BravesJournal play for the team and we can say what we think in here…i stand by that. However, Braves players who SUCK BALLS like Remlinger shouldn’t be calling out other players. That’s so beyond inexcusable and pathetic.
Chipper’s defense may suck and he’s clearly degraded overall as a player, but Chipper in a giant sling, blind, deaf and dumb is more talented then f-ng Mike Remlinger. What a piece of crap Remlinger is.
See…I love when guys like him and Judy Reitsma do something obnoxious and stupid and say nasty things or lie in public…because that opens the door for us to stop having to be nice about them. Mac asked me a few weeks ago to be “nice” about Remlinger because of his 3 good years…but if he’s going to solely blame Chipper for his crappy decision making and crappy throw, then pack your bags, retire and GO AWAY. You suck anyway…
But Yes…enough already…Villareal, Remlinger, Pratt, Jordan–those are the first 4 players I would cut outright. They are completely useless and sad. There are other players I wouldn’t mind seeing traded if we get the right things in return (Giles, LaRoche, Langerhans, Thomson) but those 4 guys I listed are my first choices for being cut.
Orr isn’t much of a player but he’s solid defensively, has probably the best team speed, and is our best bunter…it aint much…but he does a few things well so he’s not the problem on this cruddy team by a landslide.
As for the ESPN f—–s, yes, I 100% agree with the statement that they have been praying for this day to finally come…the death of the Braves streak. Yes, this is the year the streak is over…there can be no doubt. Even if we right the ship somewhat and win some games and finish near .500, that’s the best this team can do.
But we have to accept that everything that ESPN does is focused on New York and Los Angeles.
Baseball–Yankees/Red Sox rivalry, the Mets are finally on top!
Basketball-Kobe, Kobe, Kobe and the isiah Thomas-Larry Brown bizarro world, top stories
football–USC this and USC that in college, the NFL wants a team in Los Angeles (this story pops up 80,000 times a year) and Mike & Mike making up love songs for Chad Pennington.
yes…they report on other things…but they always find the NY-LA angel as much as humanly possible. GOTTA TAKE CARE OF THEIR TOP 2 MARKETS, RIGHT?
Even the NBA Finals…I have seen as much conversation about Shaq and Pat Riley’s Laker PAST and the old Shaq-Kobe feud (ok, it’s now over 2 years past) as I have seen talk of the Finals. When they talk about scoring being up, they go back to the hey days of Lakers/Celtics.
So, it’s almost blinding the love this network spews at those 2 markets…got have those big market angles or no ratings!!!!
I meant to add that the vulture has hit 4 batters this year. What a dick.
Rem’s comments about Chipper after the game are ridiculous. He shouldn’t have gone to third, and the throw was bad. Chipper can barely walk, but he drags his butt out there every day. Rem’s on the Braves’s veteran welfare plan. I suspect an apology is in order.
Furthermore, has anyone else noticed that Chipper, Andruw, Marcus, and Renteria aren’t playing the facial hair game. I wonder if there is some kind of division going on within the team.
Also, I ended up watching a little post-game where they interviewed TP. I heard it straight from his mouth, he’s does tell Andruw to hit the ball the other way and AJ ignores him. Fire TP immediately!
It’s time to also move Andruw down in the order. BMAC has such good at bats against every pitcher, put him at the cleanup until Andruw stops his old ways. Frenchy, good lord, WE ALL KNEW that pitch was coming. Bobby , please do something, anything different!!!
I have to think, just to maintain sanity, that BC and JS said before the Marlins sereies: “Let’s see how these guys do against the worst team in the division, then we will make decisions.”
Bobby’s lefty righty matchups are getting old. History tells us the platoon usually works, but the player has to be better than Jordan. Diaz, my god, has earned a spot yet? He hits against every pitcher.
I’ll say it again, Remy, Vulture, Jordan, Pratt need to go. Everyone in baseball knows it. What’s worse we have cheaper, better players.
I think there is growing solidarity among all of us in here as to the 4 most obvious players to cut. Those are the names that come up over and over…Remy, Vulture, Pratt & Jordan. They are the 4 guys with no redeeming value that other teams would have zero interest in so those are the 4 guys who need to be CUT.
Again, other lineup changes and call ups need to happen..but JS, if you are looking for a starting (or “jumping off” point), cutting those 4 individuals and kicking them off the team for good is a start. Of those 4, only Jordan deserves to even have some other kind of ‘non playing’ role in the organization.
the other three can simply leave. GO AWAY FOREVER…PLEASE.
I am actually thrilled about Remlinger’s obnoxious comments of Chipper because it hopefully means he’s written his official ticket out of town. But considering how in love Cox is with the idea of having ex-braves back on the Braves, who knows?
I also wish Bobby would let Freddy Gonzalez manage a game or two. Put Bobby as the 3b coach. Doesn’t Bobby need time off to clear his thoughts?
i dont think moving frenchy to aaa is a wise choice at all. who would replace his production offensively and defensively? and he seems to be getting on one of those oh so quickly patented hot streaks at the plate. once again, 30 hr’s and 100 rbi’s will be a pretty good year for the sophomore. i know he has no plate discipline but who does that could go in right? diaz and francoeur should man the corner outfield for now. i say let giles play! make moves to get a pitcher w/o trying to sac giles (laroche), then if it doesnt work, make the obvious big move and get rid of marcus. i do agree that giles needs to be out of the leadoff and betemit needs to be there, but i dont want giles to sit. betemit can play 3rd, he can play short, he can play 2nd, then he can play 1st. jordan dfa’d and laroche for hire. any takers?
? for the board.
Would you rather…
A. Semi pull it together and finish close to .500 or .500 leading into minimal changes to be made, i.e. ‘It just wasn’t our year’.
or
B. Continue this spiral, get a top 5 MLB draft pick, and hopefully ensuring that *major* changes are made.
I’m curious to see the response.
I blame bobby. his ridiculous loyalty to bum players has hurt us all season. last night, he lost the game for us by bringing in Ray. I can only imagine he was planning to give Donk Stockman a save opportunity, even though he got to miami at game time. since Ray has been a solid closer, I can imagine he was both pissed and shaken when the call came for him to warm up for the 8th. nothing is better than having a pitcher with shattered confidence and pent up rage going out to preserve a lead. if bobby to change it up, how about not playing jordan and pratt, who have about 7 hits between them against LHP. way to go bobby, you’ve ruined another potential closer.
Well, I have made my feelings on Bobby very very clear in here but have been attacked mercilessly for not loving Mr. Cox as an In Game Manager.
It’s beyond painfully obvious that he’s:
1. Stubborn in terms of his lineup cards, who starts, who comes out of the bullpen–he generally waits about 2 months to long to make changes.
2. Is not a big reader of stats and is more of “feelings” guy or “this guy has heart” so let’s play him (JORDAN, AHEM) even though he’s hitting .200 and is finished.
Or for example…the fact that LaRoche is now in his 3rd consecutive year as our regular first baseman, but unlike Marcus Giles, who’s had strong past success to earn a pass in an off year, we get the same, below avg. player every year and yet this guy is BULLET PROOF.
Furthermore, he has a stats problem when he goes for 3 solid months putting Remlinger against lefthanders (and did this in the previous Remy stint) though if you ever look at Remlinger’s stats, he cannot get lefties out at all (and can barely get righties out but at least better at that).
Anyway, It’s blasphemy to certain Braves fans who will make all kinds of nasty personal remarks if you suggest that Cox has severe in game managerial issues, but I am sorry…I would rather have an Ozzie Guillen type who is unafraid to pull players out in the middle of the game when they are lollygagging on a play or running a grounder out (laRoche, Andruw, for example) or if a pitcher continually stinks (like Judy Reitsma?) do you really think Ozzie would have still tried him as a closer through the 2nd week of June if he’s throwing JUNK in March and April?????
Sure, I find Ozzie’s public humiliation of his players (or himself) for that matter, grating at times.
But the guy WINS. Sure, the White Sox are a far superior team to the Braves with pitching that’s leaps and bounds better. (oh, what I wouldn’t give for the Braves to get Brandon McCarthy). BUT…if Ozzie did have a ‘mediocre team’ like the Braves to manage, he would get ore out of them and not put up with a seemingly overall lack of care attitude.
The fact that we had a “team meeting” a few weeks ago NOT to discuss how crappy the team is playing and the obvious overall lack of effort being shown, but to merely bring up who the Player Rep is…was disgusting, appalling and downright asinine.
Where is Chipper Jones? Where is John Smoltz? Why are these guys not gathering this group in a circle and slamming lockers. Seriously. Give me that. This lack of passion that I have criticized in the past (and got personally ripped for that too–what a shocker) is B.S. You can’t keep playing like this and accept it.
Cox and JS shouldn’t accept it and maybe it’s time for fresh leadership at all levels. A younger Manager and a younger GM…maybe we don’t win for a few years…but I want to see HEART because honestly, that seems to be one of the biggest missing pieces on this tea, is heart. I don’t think it’s asking a lot for guys who make millions of dollars to be fired up about losing games to the stinking Marlins and be 11.5 behind the Mets.
line from “the replacements” (one of the best-bad movies i have ever seen)- gene hackman says “we got to have heart……lots and lots of heart”.
baseball is a game that you really are not suppose to show your passion, unless it is really needed (turning point in a game, getting tossed to fire up your team, etc.). i think to turn a season around just MAY BE a reason to FRICKIN’ show some EVERLOVING PASSION. I would LOVE to see someone actually get fired up, get tossed, something, but its not the braves way. instead we do goofy ass shit with our facial hair to create team unity. WAKE UP GUYS! WAKE UP COX! WAKE UP JS!
by the way, only a couple more losses before we can declare “worst to first part 2”. maybe that is the strategy the organization is going with this year. YES, i believe thats it. WORST TO FIRST! Get excited guys. WOOOOOOOHOOOOOOOOOOO! As soon as we get in last place, all of those things we want to happen, will happen simultaneously. jordan,pratt,villareal,remlinger and reitsma dfa’d, yates is sent down, kelly johnson comes back swinging one-handed and tears covers off of balls, betemit starts somewhere, thorman is called up and immediately hits a million homers,laroche is benched for lollygaggin’, giles is traded for the best closer in history, james in the rotation, thomson has a miraculous turnaround, sosa becomes the dynamite setup man he was born to be, hudson and smoltz throw 7consecutive shutouts, and we use surprise pinch hitter mike hampton for 3 walkoff hr’s. can you see it? get ready for one wild ride. i’m pumped, are you?
Can I answer (c): finish around .500 and still have major changes made? No? Ok, point taken.
I would probably prefer the latter. I have no beef with JS, Cox and Co. trying to do this year what they’ve really done for the past several (i.e. cobble it together and hope for the best). I mean, they earned the benefit of the doubt. The real test, as your question implies, is whether they acknowledge that you can only do that until it stops working, and my sense is that an implosion is the only way to ensure that they learn the lesson.
The thing that is going to be hard about this emotionally, however, is that a full blown rebuild is pretty much going to mean the end of the Cox regime, because he probably doesn’t have a desire to be that guy. Yeah, many of you will say good riddance to Cox, but everyone here (I hope) agrees that for the rest of our lives, we will be referring to the Cox-Braves as the golden years. For my part, it’s hard enough to look in the dugout and not see Leo. It will be downright discombobulating to not see Bobby.
Emotions aside: I say cut everyone who is old and sucks, play as many kids as we can, calmly explore the Giles market (I think he wants to bolt to the west coast, and will be even more likely to do that once the winning stops), but don’t take pennies on the dollar for him. Explore McCann or Salty at 1B. Let Chipper play until he dies at 3B (Pena can cover for many of his sins) because he’s our Al Kaline and dammit, that’s what you do with guys like that.
In short, use a hacksaw, but a smartly-deploued hacksaw, and focus on winning the division again in 2008 or 2009.
Alex R, I wanted to make a post, but you beat me too it. This team has completely hit rock bottom. If Remlinger said those comments, he has to go. The only way Chipper “gets a glove on that throw” is if he walks into left field to pick it up. All 4 players mentioned above have to go. When Jordan and Pratt cant hit better than .200 in platoon situations there is no other choice. Bring Thorman up and let him platoon at first and in the outfield w/ Francouer. Diaz defense isnt great, but other than McCann and Renteria he’s our best hitter right now. Pena must replace Pratt on the roster.
I have different feelings about Ray. Last night was Bobby’s fault. I’m w/ KC, you dont make your closer get 6 outs when he only pitches every 5 or 6 days. At a minimum he would’ve had to throw 30-40 pitches. I posted here yesterday and said Ray should’ve pitched the 8th inning instead of Remlinger and now we can see why. Why not let McBride pitch to more than one batter. He should’ve pitched the 8th yesterday. I still like McBride, Paronto, Ray, and Yates is better. Everyone else has too go!
I dont understand why Bobby was so quick to release Cormier, but Remlinger and Villareal still pitch everyday. Honestly I think Cormier is a better option than those two. They look like Bernero and Gryboski from last year. Its time to bring up Barry and James and see what we can do!
I am not watching the game tonight! Maybe Sosa can get a hit w/ RSIP and show Andruw how its done. As for Renteria’s bunt I think that’s still a good decision. If we cant score w/ Chipper and Andruw wq/ 2 out and RISP we dont deserve to win.
Maybe we can hire Leyland or Guillen to come talk to our guys for one day. Apparently it works for them to call out the ball club. I can tell you our 4 guys wouldn’t be playing for them.
When does football season start? You know even though I played Golf in college I hate watching it on T.V. After the Red Sox blow out this weekend the US OPEN will be a nice surprise.
On the bright side, we’ve apparently acquired a new left fielder by the name of Manny Diaz, according to ESPN.
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/recap?gameId=260614128
(scroll to the bottom)
I say keep trying to win, however that’s defined.
This is a low point, for sure, but this is not the NBA where a high draft can often automatically help turn a franchise around.
If you’re not trying to win or you’re not rooting for a win, I don’t know why one should ever play the game or even watch it.
csg,
With so little on TV in the Summer (outside of my usual faves like The Dead Zone, Rescue Me, Entourage and a few others), my wife & I have re-joined Netflix. Watching the Braves every night this Summer just seems like it maybe a painful excercise in futility, especially if they don’t make changes.
And before people jump on me about not watching, me not watching is still me sitting on my couch, spending time with my wife watching something together (Because she doesn’t really like Baseball) but keeping open our Latptop to at least “follow” the Game on mlb’s site or Yahoo if mlb is acting up. I am addicted no matter how bad it gets and they will always be my boys, no matter how depressed I am about them.
But yes…I might be more inclined to actually sit and watch the game on my PPV (since I stupidly spent $170 this year, first time ever, to have access to ALL Braves games on Comcast–talk about a bad year for picking that) if I actually see some of these changes we are all desperate to see…again, starting with the DFA’ing of the 4 above mentioned losers.
I agree with you again, csg…Cormier was having problems but he’s not worse then Remlinger or Vulture at this pt. No question.
As for invoking the name Adam Bernero, I pose this question to the BravesJournal posters:
Which one of the following Relievers is the WORST reliever we’ve had in the last 3-4 years?
1. Adam Bernero
2. Dan Kolb
3. Judy Reitsma
4. Tom Martin
5. Mike Remlinger
6. Vulture Villareal
7. Joey “Grand Slam” Devine
8. Kevin “Runners On” Gryboski
Let’s take a tally of votes.
Of those 7 losers, my vote goes to Tom Martin. I don’t actually think he got an out his entire stint?
look at the bright side, if we were in the west with this record we would be in dead last trailing the next team by 7.5 games.
Stu, at least we finally made a move. That’s the best news I’ve heard in a while. You know actually I’ve been thinking about Remlinger’s comments. Even though he still doesn’t belong on our roster, Chipper needs a boost and hopefully being called out might help him. Remlinger, though, you suck and have to go!
Alex R, the entire list sucks and it shows us how lucky we have been to make it to the playoffs every year. Devine still has time to regain his stuff, everyone else is horrible. My vote goes to Kolb and Villareal – they are a package deal.
i think his comment could be misinterpreted. i think he was saying that he doesnt know if the ball was catchable, they should ask chipper because he was the one catching it. i dont think it was an attack at chipper at all. it doesnt see the player rep of the braves would be calling out the francise player. i think it was a comment out of frustration and he didnt know how to answer it, and he said to ask chipperl
Alex, my vote is for The Reits.
In close second, Mr. Kolb.
Unlike Martin, those 2 were season-killers for waaaay too many games.
Ryan,
Even if Remlinger’s comment wasn’t that bad, I am, to be perfectly honest, hoping it’s all the excuse Bobby/JS need to dump his butt on the free agent wire.
Seriously, he could have said “I brake for World Peace!” and I still wish he was gone, gone gone.
I agree with Stu and csg…any moves at this point, even attempting anything gives me pause for rejoicing. What I can’t stand is the constant, day after day grind of standing pat, the team and Bobby quietly showing up to the park, no one saying a word, and losing another game without much heart.
Nothing drives me crazier.
Hell…lose every single game now for the rest of the year, but if I see guys slamming bats down, yelling, high fiving, running hard at obvious ground outs…ANYTHING…I would be dancing in the streets. Honestly…you guys play a KIDS GAMES for MILLIONS…for HALF A YEAR…act like it’s some damn FUN!
I think the comment about the new LF was a joke…
Alex, in praising Ozzie G’s managerial style said: “But the guy WINS.”
Seriously Alex, if that’s the criteria, how can you take issue with Bobby? Yes, Ozzie’s team won the series last year and Bobby’s teams haven’t done very well in the playoffs the past few years, but you cannot honestly say that Bobby “doesn’t win.” Indeed, the only current manager who has a better claim to winning than Bobby is Joe Torre (similar regular season success, better overall playoff success, similar recent playoff success). In terms of style, though Torre is way more like Bobby than Ozzie is. He plays Bernie Williams despite the massive fork in his back, he cuts slack all over the place, etc. etc.
Can we criticize Bobby? Absolutely, and I do, often. But until a manager who frequently calls out his own players, gets involved in feuds, and acts like a general douchebag wins multiple division titles, I think it’s a little bit hasty to say that’s what the Braves need to win. It seems to me that our problem this year (and in recent years, though it was masked to some degree) is an overall lack of talent. Lack of talent in the bullpen especially, but lack of talent in many other places as well too. To me, that falls on JS and ownership, and I think that Bobby deserves praise for getting results as good as we’ve enjoyed in recent years.
Oh well…my bad. I didn’t click on the link because I am also doing 3 things at work while obssessing with everyone on the Braves.
But the point is still the same…I am beyond frustrated about the lack of movement with a team that’s playing so horrendously.
Craig,
I see your point so let me make an addendum:
A CROSS between Bobby Cox and Ozzie Guillen would be a perfect solution.
Look, there’s no question Joe Torre has the demeanor of Bobby more then Ozzie…HOWEVER, Torre doesn’t sit on his hands for 3 months constantly shoving the likes of Judy reitsma on the mound.
When he needs to change a pitcher or a lineup change, he makes it. His style maybe like Cox’s but Cox literally won’t make a move on anyone until 2 mos. after the fact and I think that’s my frustration and some others.
But I do agree that Ozzie goes too far, too often…he needs to dial it back a lot. (and, to be fair, Ozzie has triple the pitching talent of the Braves right now).
Judy Reitsma cracks me up !!! – anyways maybe a sweep by the Marlins might be what it takes to wake us up! Is it too late – for the division probably so, but the wildcard is within reach. Houston is going to be hard to catch though.
Agreed…with Clemens back, it will take nothing short of a miracle.
But you know, a great start would be the removal of 4 particular players…
I think we can get the wild card, but I think Chipper has given up on the season. He left the clubhouse with out talking to anyone. The next four days will either end our season for good, or put us in the wild card race.
Guillen does take it too far sometimes.
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=2485365
96 games to go..i dont think the division is lost yet. nothing short of a miracle will do, but not lost. the wild card might be just as hard to obtain as the division. and for my last post, i apologize. i do know how to speak americanized english and didnt show it on #48.
Alex R.,
I about died laughing when you put in Kevin “Runners On” Gryboski. So true, so true.
I don’t blame Chipper. The man gave back the team his salary to see the team gotten worse. Go figure.
francouer is now leading the team in total bases, 2nd in hr’s, 2nd in rbi’s and many want him in AAA. not happening, and hopefully mlb experience will help his plate approach. langerhans needs to ride the pine for a long while, and let diaz have an everyday opportunity. however, i dont think diaz and frenchy should be beside each other in the lineup. i would like a renty, giles, chipper, druw, mccann, frenchy, betemit, diaz lineup. that would be shaking things up a lot without the stir. i would suggest giles to move to 7th but that would magnify the free swinging problem back to back to back. would laroche or langerhans be valuable to any team? they are lefties and would provide stable defense (well, langerhans would). what about mccann for a #2 hitter? he’s lefty, there would be a hole on that side with a runner on and almost any base hit to the right side would put runners on 1st and 3rd.
Um, I don’t want to stir the pot, but at the time, I was really wishing they’d show that replay from a different angle, because it looked like to me that if Chipper hadn’t been so married to keeping his foot on the bag, he could have moved just a tad and kept that throw from sailing into LF. Remlinger should just keep his stupid mouth shut, but I didn’t think Chipper tried very hard to get that ball. At least, that’s what it looked like from the angle I was watching. The ball was thrown high and wild, but Chipper is not Marcus (read: midget) and if he can’t move any more than that, he shouldn’t be out there at 3B. But I won’t dispute the fact that Remlinger should STFU and get off the team. The whole bullpen should take a hike and we should start over. Maybe we could have “bullpen exchange” with the Red Sox this weekend and let guys switch sides at will, since theirs has been rather sucky of late. If you like an arm, keep him and send one of your own crappers over in exchange. It would be amusing, at least.
No point in sending him down now.
As a Met fan, I feel bad for the Braves. How the mighty have fallen. Never should have let Leo go. I don’t feel bad for Chipper though. Naming his daughter Shea was just weird.
I just got one of those emails from the Atlanta Braves wanting me to vote for Andruw and buy Red Sox tickets. I send an e-mail back and told them i wouldn’t vote for Andruw until he gets a big hit with the BASES LOADED AN ONE FUCKING OUT!
What am I going to do this summer? What will I watch? There is still two months until football and the Vols still suck.! HELP HELP HELP HELP!!!!
go to youtube.com and type in “c for cookie movie trailer” (spoof on v for vendetta), or type in “the ‘bu episode 1” (spoof on the oc). this will take up a little of your time, especially if you watch them multiple times as i have. hope this helped.
A couple of weeks ago I made a comment about the team looking like they didn’t care, and I got ripped by people on this site. Something along the lines of ” they are professionals, and its stupid to say they don’t care”
Well, I’ll say it again, this team looks like they don’t care. The lack of fire and passion makes this team look like nine Laroches on the field. When you look in the dugout you see Bobby sitting there with the same look on his face no matter what. An even keel is fine, but lets get fired-up and show some displeasure with the guys who deserve it.
The players have already decided to mail it in and if management doesn’t show any interest in changing things, then I don’t blame the players.
This team has had so much sucsess that they just don’t want it bad enough anymore. There is no fire, passion, or hunger.
If Chipper has given up on the season, we can replace him too! Thanks for giving back some $$$$ to help the team, but keep your passion and show some freakin leadership! Same w/ Andruw, lets get a new line-up today.
Renteria
Giles
Andruw
McCann
Chipper
Come on Bobby change something, we know Betemit wont play.
Smitty:
The Dead Zone
Entourage
Rescue Me
Summer Movies
Catch up on other great shows via DVD such as 24, Lost, Scrubs, and The Sopranos
See…PLENTY to watch.
Jenny- Yes…the bottom line with f-ng Remlinger is he’s consistently been one of the worst pitchers on the team (which is saying a lot in 2006…my goodness) so Chipper could have been laying in the FETAL position smoking a cigarette for all I care and Remlinger still has zero rights to say a damn word until he starts pitching like an actual RELIEF pitcher! (which he won’t because, well, he’s DONE, Bobby!!!!!)
And yeah…Chipper’s defense sucks, his offense has degraded…and Remling is still the last person on the entire earth save for JUDY FREAKING REITSMA that should be criticizing Chipper Jones.
There is no excuse for the way the team is playing right now. A $75 million team doesn’t lose this many games in such a short span. This is embarrassing and I fully expect management to send a clear message that it won’t be tolerated.
I’m not ready to believe that our division dominance ends like this. If it is, I want my money back.
I, too, feel that something big–personnel wise–is about to happen. Whether it’s too late I don’t know.
Um, that should say, “something big, personnel-wise, is about to happen.”
Again…if the Braves would just remove Jordan, Pratt, Remlinger and the Vulture…I think every single person on Braves Journal would stand up at their keyboards and rejoice.
Those players provide zero value to the team. Only Jordan should be given another role in the orgnization because he is good guy…as I have said…I think BJ would be a great bench coach. But not a 24 man regular.
I think Jordan woudl help the team best if he just didn’t show up one day.
Remlinger’s annoying comments about Chipper remind me of Nats GM Jim Bowden getting pulled over drunk driving a few days before the new Nats ownership was intending to take over the team. It’s called KARMA, baby.
Bowden’s exquisite timing has assured he won’t be back as GM of the Nats (my 2nd favorite team because hey, I live in No. Virginia!) and of course, you know, signing Christian Guzman in Dec. 2004 to a 3 year, multi million dollar deal apparently wasn’t enough to get this a– clown fired. (or perhaps saying “OK” when the Rangers said they wouldn’t allow Bowden to chat with Soriano before completing the Wilkerson deal.
Actually, with Bowden’s sheer non genius the last 2 seasons, JS’ complete non activity is less of a problem then the alchy running the Nats!
oh…the KARMA part is Remy will hopefully be out of a job before the end of the week. Great call loser…call out the franchise player when your own sucktitude has been far more damaging to our team.
Well Bowden’s team is only a half game behind us.
That’s because despite the fact that Soriano is a 1 year rental (since there’s no way he wants to come back to DC though I maintain he’s a big baby and should be happy to play) he still is one of the best hitters in the NL…he maybe more productive then Wilkerson but that trade was a mistake on several fronts.
1. Not talking to the Rangers and/or Soriano about his willingness to play Left
2. Wilkerson was the face of the Nats franchise in its first year, a good outfielder, and did pretty well offensively despite this cavernous horrible park. He was the team’s most popular player by leaps and bounds (every little kid I saw at RFK generally had a Wilkerson jersey or shirt).
3. Wilkerson is a better defensive player
4. Wilkerson was happy here and likely would have ignored a multi year deal. Soriano is going to leave and they will neither.
Plus, the Guzman deal, and some other stuff, overall I still maintain we have the better GM despite the mounting problems JS has allowed the last few seasons.
Had JS just made the slightest efforts these past few winters to scout young arms, we may not have such deep bullpen problems. Same with finding a better leadoff and first base option and a solid veteran to play the outfield.
A lot of this could have been avoided with just a slight better effort between November & March.
On the comment about the Braves not looking like they’re trying. I don’t put much stock in that. That just seems to be a characteristic of Bobby Cox teams that is neither good or bad. When the Braves are winning it comes out in “They stay focused and have a job to do and are doing it”. When they lose it often looks like they’re not trying. While I’m not a huge Cox fan, I will give him credit for yanking guys when they don’t hustle.
We are simply in a terrible slump right now. In years past, we’ve had one or two games that looked like the turning point. After that we’ve played good. Eventually we’ll get out of this slump, but I think the point is that our talent isn’t good enough to play 700 ball after that. I say we roll the dice with some minor league relievers, trade Giles and hopefully LaRoche (although I don’t know of anyone who will take him), and shake up our lineup (Langerhans has had his chance too).
If the stars line up just right, I still don’t think we’ll win the division, but a wildcard isn’t out of the question. With below average chances of a wildcard, we definitely don’t need to sell the farm for a “Rent-a-Reliever” or “Rent-a-Leadoff” batter. I still think that if we get Betemit into the lineup regularly and dump some relievers and the dead-weight veterans, we can be an improved team. IMO that is about all we can hope for at this point.
Everyone on this site ahs to go see this clip. It will make you laught out loud!
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2006/writers/john_donovan/06/14/soriano.trades/index.html
Would be nice if we could get any of these guys.. *sigh*
HA!
Chipper Jones has been a wonderful player for the Braves since he came up. I love him but doubt he will ever again be a shadow of the player he was at the turn of the century. Perhaps he would be interested in playing closer to his ranch. Chipper, Thomson and Sosa for Texeria might be possible. Texeria has already said he intends to test the market when his time comes. Maybe for Chipper money, he’d welcome a return to the site of his college glory. Betamit at third, Texeria at first would be an improvement; and Texas always needs pitching.
this was a post under the mlb trade rumor for Giles!
“Giles and Thompson or Reistma to Cards
Reyes and prospects from Braves and Cards to Nats
Soriano to Braves”
Someone wants Reitsma, please pray it happens… I dont care for Soriano, but I would like him more if he was on our team. At least Smotlz wouldn’t have to pitch to him.
Davey, I think we have the resources to get Wilson and Willis. As for the rest of the list, I dont think so!
Chipper, Thomson and Sosa for Texeria might be possible
Only if the Rangers GM is drunk.
*ahem*
Chipper is a 5/10 guy. He will not be traded. There is zero chance of him being traded. Please do not waste our time by dreaming up trades involving Chipper, as they are even more fanciful than what is typically suggested here. Thanks.
Re: The SI Story.
With the exception of Willis or Zito, none of those guys address what’s really wrong with this team: Pitching.
Zito may not make sense, as he’ll make a fortune very soon (my guess, next year in NY). We’ve gone over Dontelle to death, but to me he would be worth losing a Salty and a couple others. I’d love to see him in an Atlanta uniform for the next several years.
(BTW, amusing that there were no relievers in that list. What does that tell you?)
Guys like Teixera or Craig Wilson (or Lou Gehrig or Hack Wilson) could provide upgrades to the lineup, but they can’t get guys out in big spots. And that’s the main reason why we’re not winning.
Mets are at it again,
4-2 2nd inning
Catching the Mets dream is about over. We need to make up some ground in the Wild Card.
The Mets are gonna do whatever they’re gonna do. We only have 10 games left with them anyway. The point is to get the Braves to play better. Only if they begin to play well can we even consider a post-season. If the Mets win 95 games or 85 games, our current pace doesn’t approach that neighborhood.
Guys I dont know what to think about this. The Angels are trying to trade Jeff Weaver and will eat most of his contract. A move back to the NL will probably help. Would it be worth trying to get him as a 4th or 5th starter. It would probably cost us Langy and another. I wouldn’t give any more and they would eat almost all of the contract. They have to keep Jered Weaver in the rotation.
Hudson, Smoltz, Thomson, James, Weaver. When Davies comes back he could replace Thomson or Weaver and we could move the other to the pen. Sosa to the pen might help or we could send him in that trade.
Any thoughts
Weaver is an ass, his only good season, really, was with Detroit….he doesnt seem to be able to handle the big time!
Weaver has only played for crap teams, which I guess we could be another one to add to his list. I dont know if he would be any better for us. Maybe he should watch his brother pitch
When they talk about “makeup” on a pitcher, Jeff Weaver gets very low grades. Not a guy who handles adversity well.
I saw enough of him here in NYC. When he started to shrivel & the locals booed him, it was like salt being poured on a slug. There’s a reason he’s being shopped; I’d pass.
csg,
Weaver pitched in the ’03 WS. He gave up a walk-off HR to the Marlins shortstop.
Is Thomson going to the DL?
Ububba, wasn;t he injured those two years w/ NYY. I knew he pitched then, but I thought he was injured for some reason. Maybe I was wrong. Anyways I was just looking to see who’s available.
Boston and ChiSox make swap for relievers.
http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/story/5698704
“Injured” in the sense of “brain injury” as in he can’t take the pressure. A fourth-place team is just made for him.
But as I’ve said before, I don’t think it’s the pitching so much as the defense. I mean, if we brought in a bunch of high-strikeout fly-ball pitchers that might work, but the real problem is a defensive infield with one C+/C defender in Giles and three D+/D guys.
don’t look now, but zach miner (the other prospect in the farnsworth deal) has put together a nice little season first in toledo and now in detroit. good for you, zach.
csg,
Not really. Weaver was demoted to the bullpen in July or so (if I remember correctly). The ’03 team had a scary lineup & he was basically the only starter who could never keep a lead. He lost Torre’s confidence & eventually became the new Ed Whitson–a whipping boy who “couldn’t pitch in New York.” To Yankee fans, he’s about as popular as cholera.
Mac, who won the “What’s Wrong with Giles” contest?
(I hope it was me!)
I just got back from a client Meeting and I was thinking about this a LOT while I was in my car frowning about the Braves in my head. (and hearing the “dinnnnnngggggg” thing go off during “The Dan Patrick Radio Show” for David Wright. arrrrgggg.
The biggest problem I see the past couple of years goes back to John Schuerholz, and more specifically, that f-ng BOOK of his.
I have never written a book. I used to be a columnist for the “Red & Black” student paper at Georgia, but that’s about it. I really don’t know how long it takes to write a book.
But my guess is that JS’ FOCUS has been on that damned book until it got out in print and available at your neghborhood Border or Barnes N Noble.
It’s so completely ironic that he writes this book while he is still General Manager (and not in retirement when he should have written it) and now the book looks like a freaking joke, because “Built to Win” is the antithesis of this current Braves team.
Having read the book, there sure is a lot of self congratulations going on and what a great “eye” John has. The same eye that said first base was solved when LaRoche came up, or that same eye that said Judy reitsma was going to be a big time reliever for the Braves.
The point is, the Braves are now the opposite of the book. They are a languishing, paltry shadow of a once proud and competitive team. They cannot field, they strike out too much, they allow the opponent too many runs…too many issues to name. And furthermore, JS pissed off Tom Glavine who pretty much eliminated any chance of returning once he read the book. To be fair to JS, I don’t think there was anything so bad…I don’t think the book made Glavine look bad. It just made his stupid agent look like a petty money grubber but to me, it wasn’t on Tommy.
This is why big name sports figures should wait and write books when they are done. To really evaluate an entire career (good and the bad) and you no longer have to worry about anyone’s feelings. A really honest book.
If Schuerholz wrote a Part II, it might be:
“Built to boot the ball, strike out a whole lot, and blow every lead known to man” by John Schuerholz. Foreward by Mike Remlinger and Judy Reitsma.
I also want to point out something that was posted a short while ago regarding the top available names on the trade market…yes, there are clearly no relievers.
This has been said before but I will say it again…if Smoltz and Chipper really wanted to “help” the Braves as team leaders, Smoltz would become the closer and Chipper would move to first. That way, Betemit gets in the lineup, we keep Giles (assuming he rights the ship and is dropped from leadoff) and in Smoltz, we finally have a pitcher who can shut the opposition down at the end of a game.
Then we could theoretically make a deal for a starter like Willis and pair him with Hudson as a good a 1-2 punch as anyone.
The point being, it seems it’s impossible to get teams to trade stud relievers, even non closers like Scot Shields (who should be a closer). That’s why Smoltz being so defiant and so pissy everytime someone brings up he would help the Braves more as closer, is moving us backwards.
i dont think there’s a chance in hell that the marlins would let us have willis (they’re already in last, why add salt to wounds). chipper will retire a brave (the trade scenarios involving him are useless). we dont have the resources to get teixera. i would like to get soriano only if he agrees to play with duck tape on his mouth and to not flip his bat.
Alex, last night’s game not withstanding, we haven’t had many leads lately to even hand over to the bullpen. I completely agree with Smoltz–if he’s effective in both roles, his value to the Braves is much greater as a starter.
As far as Smoltz closing, I don’t think he can physicaly do it. I think he has maybe one good year left, and he wants that to be as a starter next year. He may be able to be a dominant closer again, but I don’t think he feels his shoulder can handle pitching without normal rest.
Very Alarming stats that I’m sure we are all aware of, but I’m bored at work so I’ll list them.
Villareal 30IP 35H 15ER 2HR 14BB 16SO 4 Blown Saves
Cormier 20IP 19H 14ER 1HR 17BB 9SO 0BS
Remy 20IP 22H 8ER 1HR 8BB 19SO 2BS
McBride, Paronto, Ray, James, Smotlz, Hudson are the only pitchers who have more IP’s than H’s given up. The Mets have 9 pitchers w/ more IP’s than H’s. Is this bad defense or poor pitching? Also, Cormier is gone so why isn’t Villareal. Also, any ideas of why McBride doesn’t get the call against lefties and Remlinger does. Time for Startup, James, and Barry!
I haven’t decided who won yet.
Alex R,
As a former Red & Blacker myself, I’m glad to hear you did your stint on Jackson Street. (For me, the R&B experience was invaluable.)
But I don’t think JS’ book makes the Braves play poorly. He expected better results from the guys who helped win the division last year, and he certainly gambled with the bullpen (a move I damn-sure didn’t endorse).
But he wasn’t scribbling chapters while his phone was ringing off the hook or the next Sparky Lyle was pitching next door on the local American Legion team. The bullpen didn’t look good in the Winter or Spring, but truthfully, I don’t know which future bullpen hero was affordable or even available.
Good news, Alex R. JS will be signing copies of his book this weekend at Turner Field.
Once again, csg, we agree.
Yes, the defense has been bad, but the pitching is so bad it’s hurt the team far more.
it’s the chicken and the egg, I suppose. We suck in both areas!
Stu, re: Smoltz
I think he hasn’t been nearly as good this year as a starter. And it’s been a problem, it seems, towards the 3rd or 4th inning, but not necessarily (though sometimes) the 1st or 2nd.
I personally feel he’s far more valuable as a closer. But again, this is just my personal opinion. It just seems to me, and again, if I am wrong tell me, it’s much easier to get a starter anywhere then a reliver….it’s like righties and lefties. It’s always easier to find a righty pitcher then a lefty. I think it’s always easier to find starters then relivers.
As for the argument “would his arm hold up”, I am sort of torn on this.
Is it more pressure to throw say 10-25 pitches 3-4 nights a week, or throw 95-115 pitches 1 or 2 times a week? That’s the question at hand.
Honestly, I don’t know. I kind of think it depends on the pitcher. But it’s telling that more pitchers are effective as starters and it seems to be harder for most pitchers to be relievers (though John isn’t most guys). But at his gae, is it really good for him to still be throwing 115 pitches 1 or 2 X a week? I dunno.
Whether it makes sense or not, Smoltz has already come out and said he’s not moving back to the pen, so it’s not happening.
Fun to talk about, though.
Brad,
I know…it’s all mere speculation on our parts.
But the Braves really need a shut down closer a lot more then a solid starter (which is basically what John is at this point).
As we have all seen…it’s just so much more difficult to find good relievers.
This coming offseason, if we do ONE thing…IMPROVE THE BULLPEN AND SPEND SOME $ ON IT!!!!
Mets freakin won again, this team is playing out of their minds. Thanks Phils
But Alex, as soon as you take Smoltz out of the rotation and move him into the ‘pen, we’d then be in need of a solid starter. I’d rather have that guaranteed solid starter for 6-7 innings (and I’d consider Smoltz better than “solid,” myself) than a reliever for 1, like I said, when we may not even have a lead to protect. To me, it’s not even a tough decision.
I say we win tonight 13-2 and go on a tear where we win 8 of 10 and are near the top of the wild card chase.
I called my dad and asked him what he wanted for Father’s Day his response. “I want the Braves to win tonight and the series against the Red Sox.” If only I could pull that one off!
I tend to agree with Stu here. We’ve won in the past with dominant starting pitching and an average-to-bad bullpen. I think we realize now what happens when you have average starting pitching and a ridiculously bad bullpen, but the way things have gone, we haven’t had too many leads to even protect b/c our ‘starters’ are giving up 4-6 runs a game.
A somewhat serious trade rummor:
A guy on the AJC Blog says this will be Giles last game as a Brave and probably Sosa’s too. There is a deal in the works to get two arms and a bat.
I read on another blog something simular. I don’t know how much water they carry, but we will see…
Stu,
What I mean to say is, that it’s easier to replace Smoltz then it’s been to say replace Farnsworth.
We can go out and possibly offer the right prospects package and get Willis or Zito or someone of that level. But we do ot have access to the Lidge’s or Wagner’s, and it’s even impossible, it seems, to get the “non” closers with “closer” stuff–i.e., are oft. mentioned friend, Scot Shields.
So while I don’t deny your side of the argument, I do feel it’s far easier to swing a deal for a front line starter then getting a front line reliever…so from that perspective…it’s easier and more efficient if Smoltz was a closer because then we wouldn’t have to trade for a stud reliever.
Look, ever since John has left the bullpen, it’s been in flux continuously for 2 years–that has to say something, right?
Smitty,
You didn’t hear that one from Floyd the Barber?
You guys might have seen this already: The Devil Rays and Angels have reportedly discussed a trade that would swap Carl Crawford for Ervin Santana.
The Los Angeles Times reports that the Angels “are extremely reluctant to part with one of their best young pitchers,” although Crawford seems like a more valuable property right now based on his more proven track record. Jun. 15 – 9:40 am et
Source: Los Angeles Times
The Braves could easily match this deal.
At least we’re still within spitting distance of the Phils.
What’s the over-under on Schilling’s SO’s against us. I say 15, any takers?
Take this for what it’s worth. From the AJC blog:
“Just hear a sports talk show that said this info came from a top Braves assistant,Giles,Sosa,minor league catcher Carlos Mendez and minor league pitcher donovan Jackson to the Astros for Brad Lidge and Chad Qualls,said this trade will be announced tomorrow.waiting to make sure Lidge passws physical.said that is the key to this deal.”
I’ll take that
hmmmmm…..thats interesting. Maybe thats what Bobby meant by Betemit will be getting more playing time.
Confession: I love following trade rumors. I am a horrible gossip hound, plus I’m bored, so this could be fun.
Will Carroll says HoRam probably won’t start on Saturday. Something about “post-concussive symptoms.” So who fills in? Somebody on short rest?
That sounds like a nice trade.
Hasnt Lidge been a basket case since giving up all those HR’s in the post season last year?
no way the astros gives us this. they would be out of their minds. the only reason i can think of that they might do this is it will make our team stronger and we could make a push for the division. that way they wont have to play the mets 1st round, and they get to put us out as usual.
trade rumors are fun but then reality sets in.
We’re talking about dealing a player who has been in our organization for several years and is well-liked by the fans and his teammates. Marcus has been fun to watch and if he is traded, i will miss him.
That said, we’ve got some serious issues with this squad and something has to happen.
Re: A Lidge Trade
If that trade went down…you add up the salary numbers & Atlanta comes out ahead with about $1.7 M to spare to pick up more relief help. I could see that. It addresses glaring & immediate needs, and one assumes it’ll be James who joins the rotation pronto.
2006 Salaries
Sosa: $2.2 M
Giles: $3.85 M
Lidge: $3.975 M
Qualls: $0.376 M
I’d say there’s a 99% chance that rumor is false. Carlos Mendez is a 32 year old catcher with a sub 300 OBP in Richmond – a completely fungible commodity, a guy who has a job because SOMEONE has to play catcher. There is no one in the Braves’ system (so far as I can determine) by the name of Donovan Jackson – perhaps the guy meant Drew Jackson?
Plus the astros already have biggio and chris burke. I just don’t see this happening.
Re: Why would Houston do a deal like that?
I have no idea.
My thoughts are, whether or not we make a trade, it probably needs to impact the team and carry the Braves into ’07 and beyond. While the WC might be in reach, I can’t imagine one trade we’d make that would get this ball rolling to make a run. Just too many holes in nearly every facet right now.
That deal is a steaming load. I would love it, but not gonna happen.
One thing that hasn’t been mentioned here is why in the 7th after diaz singled, why didn’t cox make jordan bunt -HELLO .218 avg then ph McAnn for pratt 200avg . But noooo Bj popped up to the catcher, Pratt right on cue ground ball double play
Florida had a rh pitcher in why not try for a insurance run who knows that might have won the game?
Great job Cox
Biggio replaced by Giles, dont see it happening. I also dont see them wanting the extra payroll to make that trade. We would have to give up Pena or Salty. Lets get Wheeler while were at it.
Bobby has gone incredibly brain dead.
Biggio a replaced by Giles, dont see it happening. I also dont see them wanting the extra payroll to make that trade. We would have to give up Pena or Salty. Lets get Wheeler while were at it.
Why wouldn’t they take on the extra payroll? They’re paying Roger Clemens 12 1/2 million dollars to pitch for them for a couple months. I think they can handle $1.7M extra.
re Cox: You take the good with the bad…over the years, it hasn’t been lost on Braves fans that he isn’t even adequate as an in-game manager. I hate to link him with Dusty because he’s flat-out terrible, but they’re comparable in that regard. But he’s a guy that everyone loves to play for, and who knows how to get guys to perform. That’s why he’s going to the HOF. All of the second guessing here is legit in my eyes as well, but regardless of his questionable moves, it’s up to the players to execute.
I didn’t say they couldn’t handle it. I just dont know why they would want Giles, Sosa, and a crap catcher for Lidge and Qualls and take on extra payroll. The trade benefits us in every way and they lose on all aspects of it. Play Giles to bench Biggio, Sosa to replace Qualls, $$$ and give up Lidge. Makes no sense!
Line-up – No Changes
Giles
Renteria
Jones (2)
McCann
Frenchy
LaRoche
Diaz
Sosa
The last thing that the Astros need is a second baseman. Forget Biggio, they already have Chris Burke playing out of position in the outfield, and hitting .310/.369/.470. Not gonna happen.
Now, if Renteria were to go instead of Marcus, that I could see. But I’m pretty sure that’s a bullshit trade.
ububba, you made that up, didn’t you? Got a link?
It’s not nice to get peoples’ hopes up.
Hey Mac what is your e-mail? I have something to send you.