Blue Jays 12, Braves 4

Toronto Blue Jays vs. Atlanta Braves – Box Score – June 10, 2012 – ESPN.

That was some ugly bullpen work.

The Braves actually took a 4-0 lead in this one. In the second, Dan Uggla scored on an error, and David Ross drove in Matt Diaz to make it 2-0. Chipper Jones is back; in the third, he hit into a double play that scored Michael Bourn, and Freddie Freeman singled in Uggla.

Through the first four innings, Julio Teheran had allowed only one hit. In the fifth, he retired only one while allowing three hits and a walk, and Fredi went to Livan Hernandez. That did not go well at all, as Hernandez allowed three straight singles then a double to make it 6-4; he wound up taking the loss. In the sixth, Hernandez allowed back-to-back homers to make it 9-4.

Cristhian Martinez allowed two runs in the seventh and one in the eighth, just to finish things off. Well, you can’t win them all.

258 thoughts on “Blue Jays 12, Braves 4”

  1. Can’t win them all…but should have at least fought for the win instead of raising the white flag and looking toward the Yanks.

  2. Was there a reason he went to the ‘pen so quickly? Teheran was looking really good until the 5th, and it didn’t seem like he’d thrown too many pitches.

    Oh well. That curve ball was nasty! If he can get a little better at locating the FB, I’m going to be very excited about him.

  3. Gearrin called up. I’m guessing he’d have been used in long relief today instead of Livan. Hopefully he’ll pitch well when he gets the chance.

  4. Teheran was getting hit hard and with Medlin in AAA, Livan is the guy you use here to try and eat innings. I have a feeling Livan will be gone by August.

  5. Teheran had given up one run…we weren’t quite to the point where we needed to worry about someone eating innings. Let the kid try to win the game. Oh well. Cap tipped.

  6. Time for Livan to be handed his walking papers. I can’t think of a useful role for him on this team.

  7. It was clear that Teheran fell apart in the fourth. Obviously Livian had nothing today, nor did Martinez, but it was blatantly obvious that the third time through the order Teheran wasn’t fooling them any more.

  8. If he could have thrown strikes his last inning, Teheran might have been able to get through the fifth. He couldn’t and didn’t.

  9. Hmm. I guess I wasn’t watching it too closely after the first two innings, but at that point, it seemed like they were very much being fooled on his curve (which he was able to throw for strikes, which is awesome) and his changeup (which had real separation from the FB and he could throw while maintaining his arm action). It just looked like the FB wasn’t consistently in the zone, and he started leaving it up a little more as the game went on.

  10. He was working well through four. But when he gave up the rope to Yan Gomes there was no question that he was done and the Jays were teeing off on him second time through the order. Now, obviously Livian did no better, and that’s another story altogether, but Teheran wasn’t fooling batters at all in the fifth.

  11. Fredi reacts a little jumpy (from

    On why went with Hernandez in that situation with bases loaded

    “Who else would you like me to go with? If you give me a suggestion we can talk about it. I could have brought in [Craig] Kimbrel there. Some of the SABR people thought that would be a good spot. In these situations, the fifth inning of a game, is a perfect situation for [Hernandez] with all the experience he can wiggle out of there. He’s not going to spook in that situation. They got him. You have to tip your hat to the Toronto Blue Jays.”

  12. That quote is the culmination of all that we love and hate about Fredi. For those that have an irrational “tip your cap” expression hate, you’re covered there. If you want Fredi to think outside the box, you’re covered with the Kimbrel/SABR comment. I personally like managers who will get into it with a reporter over a decision, so he’s got me covered with the first sentence. For those that hate the use of intangibles (grit, gut, experience, moxie, balls, savvy, grizzled vets, etc.), then you got the “spook” (whatever that is) explanation.

    All in all, a strong quote from our manager. Helps me take a bad loss in stride.

  13. Yeah, seriously, who do we go to? Durbin? You could argue he shouldn’t have pulled Teheran at all, I guess.

  14. If you’re on the roster, you’ve got to play some. It wasn’t preordained that Livan would blow it — at least, not to my knowledge. I don’t pretend to know that kind of thing.

  15. About this quote from Fredi, “Some of the SABR people thought that would be a good spot[to bring in Kimbel].” This is actually a good sign. Obvious sarcasm aside, it shows he is trying to learn and improve his game. Which he has, and I’m all for that.

    Personally, I’d have left the kid in for another run or two, but I was listening on the radio while planting sweet potatoes, so what do I know.

  16. Fredi has to realize that there are certain relief pitchers you can’t use to solve messes in the mid-inning. Livan has been a starting pitcher all his life, and I wouldn’t use him in that situation for sure. Since we don’t want to burn Jonny this early, Durbin would be the logical choice. Boy, I miss Moylan.

  17. “Who should have have gone with instead of Hernandez?”

    Seriously? Anyone. Literally, any other relief pitcher would have been a better choice. You get out of the inning, then you bring in the long man. Why is that weird?

  18. @21 Exactly. In the past year and a third, it’s obvious that Fredi doesn’t know that.

  19. We still won the series. That’s all you can ask for, realistically. And if we can get over our case of the Mondays, I’ll be more than happy with our June so far.

  20. You don’t bring in ” rel=”nofollow”>this kind of pitcher to face an offensive-oriented club like the Blue Jays with the bases loaded and one out and expected to get out unscathed.

  21. I don’t have a problem with going with Livan, who has pitched fine this year. Why did he stick with him when he obviously had nothing? Sometimes when I go fly fishing, I decide what I think the fish will take and I stick with it, then whole day I stick with my choice out of sheer stubborn laziness. I might catch a few fish, but I would have done better if I tried a few other patterns. I felt like Fredi had one of those days. He decided Livan was the answer and stuck with him until it was too late.

  22. I understand that Fredi was just “protecting” Teheran, I just wish he’d done it with someone other than our worst reliever. If he’d brought in Lisp at that point and the same result happened (and it looks like it probably would have) then I’d have been fine. Livan shouldn’t get any innings unless it’s a blowout or we need an emergency spot-start. This will probably take care of itself once Medlen comes back and Gearrin hopefully stays up.

  23. And that begs the question, where was Roger in this decision making process? You’d think he have some pull to change the bait if it ain’t catching fish.

  24. @19, Totally agree about the quote. I think Fredi understands what the right thing to do is, but doesn’t feel like he has the security to make the right decision if it leads to a bad outcome. Maybe days like today probably give him him leverage to do the right thing in the future.

    For the record, I would’ve gone with either Venters or Durbin.

  25. Seems to me (I didn’t hear the comment, so maybe I’m missing some cues) that he was making fun of the “SABR” notion of bringing in your best relief pitcher for a high leverage situation as early as the 5th.

  26. When we left the bases loaded in the 4th, that is where the games started changing.

  27. Anyone else following the Super Regionals? 4th seed Stony Brook just took out LSU. Only the second 4 seed to make it.

  28. Who are these so called “SABR people”, and why is Fredi reacting as if he ever has to hear that kind of criticism? Is there some new young hard hitting fangraphs reporter who is busting Fredi’s balls all of a sudden?

    I think in Fredi’s mind exists a notion that only the nerdiest of SABR nerds would have problems with his managerial decisions. I doubt many people would actually argue he should’ve gone to Kimbrel in the 4th, but apparently, bringing up a potentially stupid move is somehow a defense for moves that are actually stupid.

  29. I love Andruw, but I have no chance to go to the Ted to give him a standing ovation. If someone is going, please be kind to that man.

  30. I disagreed with the call for Livan. Livan is a long-man, not a fire extinguisher. He’s not the guy you go to to get out of a bases loaded jam in a winnable game. He’s the guy you go to for three or four innings when your starter has been blown out.

    Who do you go to? Well, if Kimbrel is off the board, then O’Flaherty, Venters, or Durbin. If they can get out of that mess, THEN you can bring in Hernandez or Martinez to get through the 6th and 7th and connect to your traditional setup man and closer.

  31. #16: Great post.

    #17: Check out Alex at #38. Seems reasonable.

    The crappy fact for Fredi regarding Livan and Durbin is they’re on the team and he’s got to find places to use them. If it was one guy that sucks in the bullpen, well, you can find ways to bury them. But he’s got two guys that suck, so what are you gonna do? Compounding the problem is the guys that don’t suck – Venters, O’Flaherty, C-Mart – have either been sucking or inconsistent.

    All I can say about the Blue Jays is, you’ve got to “tipp a kap őket.”*

    * “tip your hat to them” in Hungarian. I’m learning!

  32. Damn. Of all managers to try something somewhat unconventional, apparently Dusty Baker brought in Aroldis in a high-leverage situation in the 8th, and of course Aroldis pooped his pants out there.

  33. @38 That’s exactly what I was thinking. Fredi seems to think that if he brings someone in early on it needs to be one of the long men. He seems to be fine with bringing in Durbin to mop up an inning then taking him out, but I’m not sure I remember him doing it much with anyone else.

    One of my bosses is a Yankees fan, so I really hope we smack them around.

  34. I’m not sure Kimbrel was the guy to use there that early. With Durbin’s recent discovery of ‘How to Pitch Decent and Win Followers’ it seems obvious that he would be the go to guy there.

    However, we took 2 of 3. Good weekend.

  35. I have quietly been a supporter of Hernandez all year, but Sunday was one of the worst pitching performances I’ve seen. He looked like he was throwing a batting practice looping curveball. I don’t fault Fredi for playing him, and Martinez wasn’t much better. Combine that with the fact that the Braves were shut out for the last 2/3 of the game, I’m at least glad that we’ll have our “real” relievers rested for the Evil Empire.

    For the first few innings Teheran looked like the #1 prospect that some are saying he is/was. As has been pointed out, he lost it in the fifth. I may have been in favor of him pitching to one more batter, but that is nitpicking imo. When your hot shot prospect blows up like that (which is not unusual) you’ve got to get him out of there. It’s a good thing that he wasn’t pinned with the loss.

  36. It shouldn’t be that hard, Fredi. Livan should only pitch late in the games where the Braves are already losing in order to mop up and save the rest of the pen. Or in an extra inning game when every other reliever has been used already. So simple.

  37. @47 – Exactly. It’s not so much that Livan in general was a terrible choice there (maybe just bad) but the Livan that hasn’t faced live competition in two weeks was absolutely a terrible choice, and the choice to use him was almost identical to the ridiculous decision Fredi made in this ( game last August. A “rusty” Linebrink came off the DL after not pitching for two weeks and faced bases loaded, one out, and a three run lead. Of course he left with the game tied and Beachy on the hook for three additional runs. Maybe Fredi will learn his lesson about rusty veteran relievers now, at least.

  38. Seriously? Anyone. Literally, any other relief pitcher would have been a better choice.

    Someone should tell Mac that there’s a new “anyone but” whipping boy in the pits. I suspect Livian will hold that title until someone else has a bad outing, and then *he* will be the “anyone but that guy” option.

  39. It’s not clear to me if Fredi was taking shots at “SABR people” or if he was saying “look I know what you guys are saying about early-game high-leverage situations, but I can’t just bring in my late inning guys in the 5th because I’m not ready to take the backlash if it doesn’t work”.

    I guess either way it’s good that he’s at least aware.

  40. @51 – That’s a pretty cheap shot to take since there have been specific reasons suggested why Livan was a bad choice other than just retroactively pointing to his bad outing, and since no one has said that Livan should never be used. There’s a time and place for Livan, but it’s not with the bases loaded and one out with the game still in reach for the Jays.

  41. There were three options that could be reasonably said to be available with one out in the fourth. Livian Hernandez, Christhian Martinez or Chad Durbin. If Gonzalez had gone with Durbin and similarly bad results had happened the same conversation would be going on with names changed from Livian to Durbin.

    And no, no manager in baseball is going to go to his closer with one out in the fourth. Ever.

  42. Durbin:

    Since May 7th: 10.1 Inn, 4H, 0R, 4BB, 11K. Also 9 inh runners only 1 scored.

    I still have no confidence in him but that’s a nice run.

  43. @55 – The gap between the appropriateness of using the Lisp or that of using Livan in that situation isn’t especially close, despite your grouping them together. What’s the point of even having a Lisp in the bullpen if you don’t use him in relatively important situations before the 7th inning? Is he just the mop up guy now? If he’s the mop up guy, then are there three mop up guys between him, Livan, and Durbin?

    I’m ok with not using one of the big three in the 5th inning, but at least use somebody other than the last guy in the ‘pen.

  44. I am ok with not using one of the big 3 in the 5th inning. For the braves to have any chance to win at the level we want them to win at, someone in the pen other than the big 3 is going to have to get some outs in a leveraged situation.

  45. However, I am not ok with Livan in that spot. He is extremely hittable. Bring in Durbin or Martinez, get out of the inning, then bring the long man in.

    Situations like this makes me miss having Medlen or Moylan in the pen.

  46. This was a perfect situation for Medlen, agreed. And he would have been in there if he were not being stretched out to start. That’s the trade off for taking Medlen out of the pen – you end up having to use Livian in difficult situations.

    All of this is a hiccup as long as Hudson comes back and isn’t hurt for any length of time, because Tim Hudson gets through the 7th or 8th with a lead yesterday.

  47. Buddy Carlyle has a 2.08 ERA and a 1.02 WHIP in 30 innings at AAA. He was not a world beater when he was here before, but he may be a good option going forward. In all fairness, Hernandez has not been terrible until the last two games. He allowed 4 runs in 3 innings in his next to last outing (5/27) against the Nats. Before that he pitched 8.2 scoreless innings. If Hernandez implodes at some point, I think Carlyle is a decent option.

    Gearrin has definitely pitched well enough in AAA to earn a callup. Let’s hope he gets off to a good start!

  48. @62 – Hernandez would have probably fared much better yesterday if he was facing dead batters.

  49. If only Christhian Martinez were still on the team. He’d have been a perfect candidate to come into the game at that point.

  50. Hudson wouldn’t have been pulled up three runs with bases loaded and one out in the 5th. IMHO none of our starters should be pulled in that situation. Neither Livan, nor Durbin, nor Lisp are better than any of our starters (except for Minor, lol).

    If you are going to make a move there to help put out the fire, then you need a fireman with either awesome stuff or a high ground-ball rate (e.g. Medlen). None of our relievers outside of the late innings guys have awesome high-K-rate stuff. If you aren’t going to put in Kimbrel in the 5th (and I don’t expect Fredi or anyone to do that), then leaving in Terehan is the percentage play.

    It’s not worth crying about since we still probably would have lost since we didn’t score any more runs, but everyone always asks for specific moves where Fredi had a negative impact on the game. This was one of those moves. It isn’t hindsight our outcome-based whining. There were better options available than the last guy in the pen.

  51. @65 – Christhian Martinez actually did pitch yesterday. He wasn’t notably more effective than Livian.

  52. @68 – 3 runs in 2 innings, while bad, is notably more effective than 5 runs (plus another three inherited) in 1.2 innings.

  53. If we sign him, do we get to pay the ML minimum, with the boSox picking up the rest of his guarantee?

  54. I think the Cubs would be still on the hook. The Sox are only paying 400K of his salary, if I’m not mistaken. I could definitely be wrong.

  55. Jorge Soler may sign a deal with someone as early as today. We are one of the teams that have been aggressive on him.

    Come on Liberty, SHOW HIM THE MONEY!

  56. There is little to no chance the Braves sign Soler. I’ve heard the number may be in the tens of millions, which makes sense, since he’s a complete free agent with a ton of tools.

  57. He’ll get somewhere in the neighborhood of 4/$25-$35. Braves are probably hoping for a “hometown discount.” Just too bad he’s not from Atlanta.

  58. With Game 6 of the Stanley Cup Finals on tap, a rainout tonight would not break my heart.

    It could easily be made up Thursday & we could avoid a Minor/Sabathia matchup.

  59. Nine years? Really? Cubs may have gotten a deal. 30/9 is a lot cheaper than 20/4, especially considering they’re his peak age 24-29 years.

  60. Great! I’m sure that they’ll do a great job with him, like they have with their other international free agent outfielders (Fukudome) and toolsy farm products (Pie, Patterson, Roosevelt Brown).

    By far the best outfielder that they’ve drafted in the last two decades is Doug Glanville, drafted in 1991, and they traded him to the Phillies for a 32-year old Mickey Morandini. Other than that, their only successful outfield draftees in the last 20 years are Patterson, Tyler Colvin, and Sam Fuld. And by successful, I mean more than 1 career Win Above Replacement.

    I bet Soler will work out for them.

  61. Fangraphs still has the Braves at the bottom of the NL in bunts this year. That’s a pretty dramatic change in managerial tactics.

    I don’t really have a problem with how he managed last night, either. The guy’s winning me over.

  62. I see Fredi as much improved in in-game managing too.

    My concern with him is still connected to the prolonged slumps we have seen from the team, last September, and, to a lesser extent, the recent 8-game losing streak. Teams have their ups and downs, but Bobby Cox seemed particularly adept at helping our guys avoid a tailspin.

    I am also displeased with his protests to defend his players. That out call on Minor’s bunt last week was one of the worst calls I have seen. Didn’t it come one game after the interference call on Freeman? Neither call elicited the type of rage I would like to see in my manager under those circumstances.

  63. Law is reporting that Soler can opt out of his yearly salaries once eligible for arbitration.

  64. That is a solid lineup. Really hard to find a weakness, I’m not sure what position you would improve if you could. Now if only they could all stay healthy for more than a game or two.

  65. Im not sure who should be hitting 3rd. Chipper, Bmac, and Freeman havent been doing all that much. Might as well give it a shot.

  66. Again, I have the utmost confidence in McCann. The numbers show he’s being zapped by bad luck. His line drive rate is actually up this year, and everything else looks basically the same as it has throughout his career. And he’s simply too good a hitter not to adjust to the shift, as we started to see the other day.

  67. Since IL play began in 1997, only 5 NL teams have winning records (as opposed to 9 AL clubs).

    As of this moment, the NL teams are:

    Braves (.538)
    Marlins (.531)
    Cardinals (.520)
    Giants (.514)
    Mets (.506)

    Worst club? Pirates (.392). Not surprising, but ouch…

    Most surprising failure? Phillies (.457)

  68. Dang, I guess McCann went out to the mound and told him to hang a curve right over the middle of the plate.


  69. Chip, do not provide Teixeira the friendly pleasure of referring to him by his nickname, “Tex.” Please refer to him only as “Teixeira,” or, failing that, “Douche.” Thank you.

  70. Seeing all the douchenozzles wearing Yankees gear makes me want to split the world in half and throw one half into the sun and the other half into Jupiter.

    Also, Raul “I look like a 70 year old stick bug” Ibanez sucks.

  71. Caray seems to have changed his broadcasting style because it’s the “great” Yankees the Braves are playing tonight.

  72. What are the odds the following comes out of Chip’s mouth:

    “The Braves are really having a tough time tonight, but it is understandable, the Great Derek Jeter of the Nahew Yaourk Yankeeees is on the field”

  73. Maybe former Yankee great Paul O’Neal will replace Murphy in the booth tomorrow.

    The Braves have pormoted this thing like they are a AAA team and the big club is coming to town for a exihbition game. Bush league.

  74. Are they Braves about to bend over for the Yankees for three straight days? Because I could go do something else. This looks pitiful.

  75. Hopefully we’ll get a guy to second base before the series ends so that he can ask for Jeter’s autograph.

  76. Eventually the Braves will get through one inning in which the Yankees don’t score.

  77. They look like they’re going to straight-number their way to a nine-run night.

  78. I’m already looking ahead to Durbin facing this lineup for about three innings of mop-up.

  79. Good news everyone – after this, there are only two more Monday games in the next 5 weeks!

  80. You could hear the jealousy in Chip’s voice when talking about that woman with the “Marry Me Jeter” sign.

  81. Fan of another MLB team: “Who calls your games nowadays?”

    Me: “Chip Caray.”

    Fan (with a reassuring pat on the shoulder): “My sympathies.”

    I’ve had this conversation with fans of at least 10 different teams in my travels.

  82. Probably one more inning and then Durbin time. Now that only fills me with ennui instead of dread.

  83. Ugh, can we just catch a damn break? The hateful Yankees do not deserve this much luck.

  84. @186 – Definitely not, Swisher caught it at the chest several feet short of the wall. Caray was just trying to cover the usual overreaction.

  85. Well, that ended up an almost decent performance. Durbin will put paid to that soon enough, no doubt.

  86. @190

    I don’t really care, but they just showed it again, and it’s you who are overreacting (or underreacting…whatever).

  87. @193-194 – Hopeful, yes, but no way that went out. You may be watching differnt feeds than I am in DC. That was a long out. Period.

  88. Going solely by games played, he’s correct. No one has played more games in a Yankee uniform than Derek Jeter.

    By other measures that’s risible. The only way to credit that statement is to assign a heavy, heavy weight to longevity.

  89. Gearrin always does this. This is why he’s never been able to stick in the bigs. He never, ever throws strikes when they call him up. With his sidearm motion and ability to get grounders, he should be our new Moylan. But he can’t ever throw strikes. I hate watching him.

  90. Gearrin, perhaps not our bullpen savior.

    How could anyone have thought that after 2011?

  91. @197

    I’d say he is in the top 10, but 1-4 (Babe, Lou, Mickey and Joe D) are on another plannet

  92. We lost yesterday because we could not get hits with men on base, partly. May that bite the Yanks.

  93. The middle of our order has the propensity to suck for extended stretches, which is a shame given how good Bourn and Prado have been.

  94. “I want a ball called a ball and a strike called a strike, and figure out how to do it. Let the humans do it somehow. That’s what the game is. It’s not Eric Gregg’s strike zone. It’s not what our game is. I don’t care what anyone says. I could get fined for it every day of my life. It’s my belief. Our game is not somebody else’s strike zone. Our game is what the book says. That’s how it should be played from Little League to Cooperstown, to make it fair, to make it right.”

    -Bobby Valentine

  95. 224- Look at it this way. We’re probably going to get the second-best strategic outcome for this game.

  96. Well, at least Matt Diaz is watching the game on the bench. Now that he is gone, who will tell Fredi what happened when he fell asleep

  97. Gearrin did a great job getting out of messes. Of course, he did an equally great job of getting into them, so I’m not sure how much good that does. Still, better than Livan.

    As for the offense, at least it’ll be over soon. Tomorrow is another day, when hopefully our offense will give a damn. As God as our witness, we’ll never go run-hungry again!

  98. We only have two more outs to try to figure out a way to blame this one on Fredi. Maybe they’ll change pitchers one more time to give us a chance to figure this one out.

  99. I struck out 42 times in 25 games when I was 14. I hit 6 homers that year and walked once.

    Must be what it feels like to be Juan Francisco.

  100. 235- We don’t need reasons; he’s Fredi! (Actually, I can think of one- Chipper’s probably not close enough to 100% and may have needed a bit more rehab time.)

  101. I was afraid that yesterday’s game would give us a week long hangover. Oh well. There’s no reason to even play tomorrow’s game. Hopefully we can avoid the sweep on Wednesday.

  102. Brandon Beachy does not seem too concerned about the slight discomfort he recently felt near his right elbow, but the Braves are going to take advantage of a chance to give him a couple of extra days to rest before his next outing.

    I was wondering if we’d see anything more on this. Beachy’s last inning pitched his fastball was sitting at 87-88 instead of 91-92. Even Joe made reference to the loss of velocity. Im concerned.

  103. Beachy’s impending Tommy John surgery is only the beginning of a story that ends with Jair Jurrjens earning the World Series MVP.


  104. @247 Didn’t we want the kid to throw the shutout? Those pitches wouldn’t hurt, right?

  105. @245 I knew he was hurt! He was changing between the stretch and windup all game, he lost velocity on his fastball, and he threw at least two balls to the backstop.

  106. How long before a DOB story on Beachy’s love of golf in the greater Birmingham area and how he is flying over to learn to hit a lob wedge from Dr. Andrews over the all star break?

  107. I am crossing my fingers on the Beachy soreness. Not all stiffness requires TJ surgery.

    In my continuing quest to further Skip’s boy’s career, John Sterling and Chip Carey would be an excellent broadcast duo for the Yankees. The Yankees deserve no less.

  108. The 5 mph drop in velocity is a concern. Beachy said he feels fine and that its not an issue. Hopefully, he’s just going through a little “dead arm” period.

  109. Wow, Nova blows and they couldn’t get one run. These are the games where I just scratch my head and wonder about this offense. They’ll pummel Roy Halladay and then get dominated by Ivan Nova or Homer Bailey.

  110. @ 254 – Well, I will pull a Fredi card, the Braves did get a bit unlucky last night. BMac was three feet away from having two HR’s, Simmons hit one hard right back at Nova who turned two. On the other side of that, they had five lead off men get on base and the only runner who got to second got there on a balk.

  111. A consistant loss of velocity would be bad. A few MPH could be based on stadium’s radar gun.

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