ESPN – Reds vs. Braves Box Score, July 18 2007 – MLB
I’m starting to hate baseball.
The game was great through seven, John Smoltz off the DL versus Aaron Harang, two hard throwers going head-to-head. Francoeur singled in KJ from third in the sevent to give the Braves a 1-0 lead. Smoltz left, having struck out eleven men on only 93 pitches.
But Soriano walked Griffey with two out in the eighth, and then gave Adam Dunn a pitch that Dunn hit about fifteen miles to give the Reds the lead. The Braves rallied with a run in the bottom of the inning, Francoeur with a sac-fly to score Andruw. But after Wickman pitched a scoreless ninth, Kali forgot how to field a bunt in the tenth, allowing the eventual go-ahead run to reach. Chipper doubled in Renteria in the bottom of the inning, then stole third, but Andruw lined out a little too shallow and after McCann walked Francoeur’s apparent game-winning single — against a five-man infield! — was caught and turned into a double play.
The game went on and on. Ascanio pitched a strong fourteenth, but KJ dropped a groundout leading off the fifteenth. After getting an out, he allowed a single to Griffey, then struck out Freel. For some reason, Bobby walked Hatteberg to pitch to Brandon Phillips, even though this moved a second run to scoring position, and Phillips’ single made it 5-3.
Sure enough, the Braves got one run in the bottom of the inning on Francoeur’s third RBI of the day, singling in Andruw, but he wound up stranded at second as Kyle Davies struck out pinch-hitting, which is oh so typical. Davies started this awful series awfully and finished it the same way. The Braves lost despite eighteen hits. It’s a good thing that I am not in Atlanta and don’t have a gun.
The Braves have apparently brought Julio Franco back. Like it matters at this stage.
EIGHTEEN hits? My god. I said it during the Pirates series, we’re hitting really well, but no one is scoring.
Can’t believe Soriano blew it…..
Mac, the next poll should be “Worst loss of the 2007 season”. Good luck reducing it to five choices.
Why Davies!? I think Hudson was a better choice
Win 4 in a row. Lose 3 in a row. Strange team.
The loss doesn’t hurt even a little. I’m numb to it after 15 innings I guess. Kind of like game four of the 2005 NLDS.
MLBTradeRumors.com has a rumor up from Buster Olney saying the Braves are interested in Arroyo.
People, this game lasted 15 innings. It’s not like they had 18 hits in 9 innings and only scored 4.
Mac, I’m a little surprised to see you this despondant—yes, it was a bad series, but we’re still OK in the standings.
They brought back Julio? To play?
MAC:
The single by Phillips made the score 5-3, not 5-4 as stated.
Hello Julio goodbye Chris Woodward. Or Davies gets to find out if Richmond is hot this time of year.
Carrying 13 pitchers is dumb. leads to crap like PHing Davies with the game on the line.
Dang swept by the Reds.
I will be curious to see who gets moved/sent down to make room for Julio.
JULIO F. FRANCO?!?!?!!????? I THINK I’M GOING TO BE SICK. JUST START SALTALAMACCHIA ALREADY! HOW DOES COX DECIDE WHO PLAYS AND WHO SITS? I THINK OUR TEAM HAS BEEN SECRETLY MANAGED BY THE MAGIC 8-BALL FOR THE PAST 17 YEARS.
Before you give yourself a heart attack, the report is that Julio will be a bench player. Can he outhit Chuck James?
I cannot believe that Cox will not be tempted to run Franco out there at 1B. I bet he starts tomorrow’s game. Why would we possibly want to pick up the cast offs of the team we are trying to track down? This is also going to mean Diaz will get fewer PH opportunities. Could we possibly find a way to piss on that guy a little more?
In defense of Franco, the low point of this game was in the 13th or 12th or whatever when KJ was on second and Thorman struck out swinging on three pitches. I really can’t stomach any more of that. I really liked him, and thought he could be serviceable for us, but his at bat today was worse than bad…
Yeah, but is Thorman the one to go? After all, he is left-handed and Julio . . . isn’t. Wouldn’t Bobby keep them both, given his track record?
I don’t think that Julio will get significant playing time. I also think that he is done. this is kind of like the year they brought back pendelton. He was done too. mac brings up a good point. can julio out hit james?
Re Olney’s rumor of Salty for Arroyo–ick. That trade would be the definition of insanity.
With a short bench, Bobby should have let Smoltz bunt, knowing he was done, and save Woodward for extra innings.
Salty for anyone but Dan Haren or Johann Santana is dumb. We need a starter bad but to trade your best prospect???? I would trade Salty if we could address several problems but not for a guy like Arroyo. That being said watch JS do it.
I would have rather had Pena up than Julio.
well if you dont want Julio back, here is what Cox had to say
“He’s playing [Thursday],” Braves manager Bobby Cox said.
Smoltz and Chipper both wanted him back also. They also said that a pitcher will most likely be sent down
Mac, I’m a little surprised to see you this despondant—yes, it was a bad series, but we’re still OK in the standings.
We just got swept by the Reds. If that doesn’t make you despondant, then I don’t know what to tell you. This is a .500 team. If the Mets ever get their shit together, they will blow us away.
Why Davies!? I think Hudson was a better choice
Easy, because no matter how long the game went, no matter how desperate the situation, Bobby was never going to call on Kyle to pitch. Same can’t be said for Hudson.
1) They said on TV that Smoltz had already gone to the clubhouse and that’s why he wasn’t up there bunting. Don’t know if that’s Smoltz’s or Cox’s fault.
And the last time we traded our “top prospect”, it worked out OK. I trust Schuerholz.
I see no reason why the Mets are any more likely to get theirs together than we are, Robert. I know part of your schtick on here is being snarky and curt, but it is absolutely ridiculous to be so melodramatic about a 3-game deficit in the middle of July.
hey if the Mets lose it makes the sweep feel a little better. Only a 1 game difference really doesnt hurt that much. Way too much baseball to play.
oh yeah and remember what JS did w/ Marte. We got Renty for cheap and he’s been our best player on the team ever since. I trust JS and he knows what needs to be done. He and Cox thinks Julio can do something for this club, I hope their right
I’m really hoping that “this stage” refers to Julio’s career as opposed to the season…since, you know, we’re only 3 games back. Everything matters at this stage.
By the way Julio cleared waivers today.
The Braves will owe him only a prorated portion of the major league minimum ($380,000). The Mets must pay him his entire $1.15 million salary.
that was from DOB. There will be nothing better than Julio, getting paid by the Mets, and having a division winning hit against them
Always take proven (veteran) over potential (prospect). Unless the potential is overwhelming and the proven average. I have no problem trading Saltalamacchia if the price is right.
I see no reason why the Mets are any more likely to get theirs together than we are, Robert.
Reason 1: They have the budget to make an impact trade, we do not.
Reason 2: They have much more dependable starting pitching then we do. Winning streaks are build on solid starting pitching.
Doesn’t mean we can’t take them, stranger things have happened. But just because you choose not to look for reason doesn’t mean there isn’t one. Frankly, I think if they had played to their abilities we would be already planning for next season.
everyone is saying that the Pirates are willing to do the Salty for Snell or Gorzelanny, but the Braves wont do it straight up. What about trading Salty for Snell and trying to get Dmitri Young this offseason
@ 15
You realize that Franco has been a worse hitter than Thorman, right?
Franco .200/.328./.260
Thorman .220/.257/.402
This is flat out stupid. Maybe Franco will butcher a play at first and fracture his clavicle.
Actually the Mets dont have the budget to make an impact trade this year. I believe they are almost maxed out.
JS said the other day that with insurance money and other things the Braves have plenty in their budget to add 1 0r 2 impact guys. how much we have I dont know
Franco only has 50 ab’s also, Thorman has almost 250. Thats a big difference, Pena is about the same way.
would you trade Davies and a prospect for Ervin Santana right now
*Sample Size Warning*
Franco’s only role would be as a lefty masher. He’s at .250/.368/.438 against lefties this year. I could live with that, considering the other options.
@24
Saltalamacchia is not our best prospect. He is our best option at 1B right now.
would you trade Davies and a prospect for Ervin Santana right now
That’s a tough one. Kind of a ‘who sucks less’ challenge trade. The only place Santana has pitched well has been in Anaheim and we don’t really play that many games in Anaheim. Still, I do it. He couldn’t really be any worse, Davies has been the worst regular starter in baseball these past two season.
A lefty masher huh? If I were Matt Diaz I would kick John Schuerholz in the balls and then demand a trade. I guess a .347 batting average just ain’t what it used to be.
Mr Swings, I think Diaz is about to get himself an everyday job also
Actually the Mets dont have the budget to make an impact trade this year. I believe they are almost maxed out.
JS said the other day that with insurance money and other things the Braves have plenty in their budget to add 1 0r 2 impact guys. how much we have I dont know
I’m going to file both of these under: “I’ll believe it when I see it”.
If you think the Mets will sit on their hands when the NL is just sitting there waiting for someone to take it…well I think you are mistaken.
Go Julio !!!!
I really think the Mets are expecting that Pedro will be like their big piece at the deadline. They might make another move, but I doubt it
Hey Robert I still think the Braves will win the East. What do you think ?
By the way does anyone want to buy my Atlanta Falcon season tickets ? Thanks Vick !!!
If Vick isn’t convicted, I think he will be, I still think Arthur Blank might terminate his contract if at all possible.
Vick’s gone.
I was pretty snarky this afternoon, I apologize. I don’t know what got into me. I’m sure it was the Franco thing. Now, I wonder what it means just like everyone else. It’s weird, but I’m sure this means something big is up in the future.
I’m sure it was the Franco thing that started it, but I’m sorry for snapping at people.
Reason 2: They have much more dependable starting pitching then we do.
Really? Really?!?
Their rotation includes two soft-tossing 40 year-olds, a young guy pitching over his head, Oliver Perez, and Jorge Sosa. I wish our rotation were stronger, but I’d take it over the Mets’ in a heartbeat.
One of the discussions here is the idea of trading people and taking on salary. It seems clear, however, that the market has changed. Teams are not just interested in dumping payroll. Instead, they seem focused entirely on acquiring prospects. Such a change is fine, except that this “gold rush” fever isn’t just for prospects; it is for quality prospects. Thus when Bowden calls about Dimitri, he doesn’t ask for a couple of decent prospects; he wants Salty and Escobar. And I imagine that every freakin’ GM is doing the same. Want Morris? Salty and Escobar. Want Javier Vasquez? Salty and Escobar. In such an environment, nothing will happen. JS isn’t stupid and he won’t trade both for a rental or for an average player. So, I have a feeling that the Braves, like everyone else, are going to have to manage by finding cast offs and promoting from within. Oh well. The good news is that the Mets are subject to the same issues as we are (as will the Phillies, Dodgers, Padres, etc.).
Sam, I have the same feeling about the Julio signing meaning some other move—something much bigger—is right around the corner. Should be interesting, anyway.
It should be interesting. I think JS can pull something out of his hat. He usually does.
From DOB’s blog
But for Sunday’s ESPN game, Davies is tentatively scheduled to start. Reyes isn’t on the rotation plans, as of today. Again, this could all change. If Davies were to be used in long relief today, maybe Reyes gets the start Sunday.
You’ve got to be kidding.
I heard that during the game today. Surprised the hell out of me too.
Maybe there will be a trade before Sunday.
We’ll have to see, that’s all I can say.
Willie doesn’t know how to handle Franco. Give the guy a chance and see how the guy play yourself before jumping to any conclusion people. I prefer Julio any day over Woodward.
Luck is just not on our side in the past three days. The team will be fine, but the sweep surely sucks. Glad to see Smoltzie is healthy though.
Pros for signing Franco:
1) He’s a veteran presence and leader in the clubhouse. With two very young and inexperienced players at first (Franco is older than Salty and Thorman combined), maybe he’ll be a good influence.
2) He’s dirt cheap.
3) Atlanta fans love him (all except a few stragglers on this page from what I’ve read).
Cons:
1) He was apparently dropped by the Mets because he can’t catch up to the fastballs anymore.
2) He’ll take away opportunities to pinch hit from Salty, Escobar, and/or Diaz (depending on what odd assortment of players you have starting on a given day).
3) If Brian Jordan can break his collar bone at 39, Franco should be considered a very delicate player. If acquiring Franco was more for morale than actual production (I would think so), then this may be a moot point.
Pros for signing Franco:
1) He’s a veteran presence and leader in the clubhouse. With two very young and inexperienced players at first (Franco is older than Salty and Thorman combined), maybe he’ll be a good influence.
2) He’s dirt cheap.
3) Atlanta fans love him (all except a few stragglers on this page from what I’ve read).
Cons:
1) He was apparently dropped by the Mets because he can’t catch up to the fastballs anymore.
2) He’ll take away opportunities to pinch hit from Salty, Escobar, and/or Diaz (depending on what odd assortment of players you have starting on a given day).
3) If Brian Jordan can break his collar bone at 39, Franco should be considered a very delicate player. If acquiring Franco was more for morale than actual production (I would think so), then this may be a moot point.
Any other thoughts?
I just think we should see how well/bad Franco is playing before we have a conclusion. I don’t want to judge Julio just on this year’s stats because he played for the Mets. I am hoping Julio’s bad performance is due to Willie’s inability to handle Julio correctly.
Furthermore, I don’t like giving pinch hitting at bats to rookies because they are not good at it. I am thinking Julio is only taking away at-bats from Woodward, which is a great thing.
I looked this up:
Pete Orr: 58 PA, -.5 WARP
Chris Woodward: 110 PA, -.2 WARP
Julio Franco: 61 PA, 0 WARP
Heh heh heh. That’s funny.
If Julio has a resurgence on the field it will be a bonus. He’s there for the Brian Jordan role going down the stretch. The main difference being he is actually a leader and an inspiration to younger players.
Mets trail 4-0 in the 6th.
Phillies lost.
Bleh. I recorded the game this afternoon so I could come home from work and watch it. I set it to quit recording at 5:00, so I missed the last two innings. If I had known it was still going on when I got home from work, I probably would have just watched the last few pitches. As it was, I wasted my entire evening hoping the Braves would aviod the sweep…only to be really disappointed. Of course, when the Braves couldn’t score with all of the multiple opportunities they had in the 10-12th innings (I think), especially with Chipper on 3rd and no outs, I knew then there was no way they were going to win this game. As good as they looked during parts of this game, they looked awful in others. Kindof like this season, I suppose.
David Wright knots it with a three-run homer off Linebrick. 4-4 in the 8th.
Off Linebrink? Man, the Padres don’t deserve to win that game, either.
Jeff Blum with a clutch 2-out hit. Pads up 5-4 in the 8th, still batting.
Geoff Blum RBI single. Pads 5-4. All is right with the world.
Bad news: No more runs for the Pads.
Good news: 507-save Trevor Hoffman is up for the Pads. 😀
Shawn Green, Paul LoDuca and Lastings Milledge up.
Green strikes out.
Paul LoDuca makes an out, I don’t care how! 😀
Milledge out! The Padres help the Braves in the NL East yet again!
Julio was a pure lefty masher his first three years here, with 900+ OPS each year. Since then, it’s been a mixed bag, but this year the split has returned. If he’s truly lost bat speed (not an unreasonable assumption), he’ll be useless vs. RHPs now.
I still think we should have signed him as a coach and activated him in September, when we can afford to have someone who’s only useful as a PH vs. LHPs. I don’t know if that was an option.
I’ll say this, though — there’s nobody I root for harder on an AB-to-AB basis. So I’m glad to see him, even though I doubt he’ll help. Pretty f’ed up priorities, I freely admit, but such is my admiration.
“It’s a good thing that I am not in Atlanta and don’t have a gun.”
Mac,
Keep the gun and stay safe in Tuscaloosa when the football players roll through town this weekend.
Braves’ starting SS OPS through the years:
767 — Menke
658
550 — Jackson
606
667
579 — Perez
541
663
545 — Robinson
585 — Blanks
655 — Chaney
633 — Rockett
601 — Chaney
610 — Frias
451 — Gomez
579 — Ramirez
698
705
622
605
639 — Thomas
580
628
542
747 — Blauser
582 — Belliard
494
837 — Blauser
711
660
775
887
729 — Weiss
638
776 — Furcal
691
710
795
758
777
797 — Renteria
862 (2007)
Only Blauser in ’97 had a better bat than Edgar this year. I’ve slagged his defense more than a couple times this year, but I have to give him his due for what he’s done at the plate.
He does deserve credit for that. A lot of credit.
Went to the Yanks-Jays game tonight & saw Clemens get knocked around a little bit. Despite giving up 9 hits in 6 IP, he only gave up 1 run & clutched up with 2 outs. New York came back on Shaun Marcum & won after Clemens left the game.
Bringing my sister’s family (hubby, 2 daughters) to their first game at Yankee Stadium tomorrow afternoon. Seeing Chien-Ming Wang pitch. I always seem to get him, but I like watching him more than any other Yankee pitcher, so no sweat—his games go fast when he’s on.
Two games there in less than 24 hours & all I can think is: Boy, I hate Toronto’s uniforms.
On Julio, I wanted him signed, but to a minor league contract. Take 15 to 20 days at Richmond and play every other day to get his timing back without over taxing him. Then, bring him up in August if ready, if not guarantee to bring him up in September. Guarantee him post season unless he is awful.
As bad as a few of our guys are hitting, he probably won’t hurt us. If a few of these idiots pay attention to his approach, we might actually get some good out of it.
I have to agree with most – I don’t know that Franco will add much to the team offensively, but his mere presence alone should hopefully be enough to justify having him around. Let us hope his attitude is infectious, eh?
What an awful three days. Ugh. I have a hard time believing that we can beat the Mets in the long run if we cannot beat the Reds at least once in three games. True – there was no luck on our side. But after three games (near four counting yesterday) one might assume the luck factor means less and less and it simply comes down to poor execution.
Last 265 games, Braves record is 130-135. I think that pretty much defines mediocrity. Yes, they are still in contention in a pathetically weak division, but can you watch this team and honestly say they are a good team? I mean, obviously, they aren’t the Nationals but this team has shown no signs of having the capability of playing well for an extended period in two years. The thing I hope is that these last two years are transitional and the Braves are building up another power–because watching a .500 team play is no fun. And it’s not like it’s one thing; one pitcher or one hitter. The Braves really aren’t great at anything. The bullpen is falling apart now, the starting pitching is mediocre at best, and the offense is a bunch of singles hitters. It’s not like this is just a slump. This is the way the team has been for most of this year and last year too.
Marc,
Thank goodness we aren’t in the American league Central. It really does matter what division you get to play in.
The Braves seem to be unsure who they are starting in the ESPN Sunday night game…Davies or Reyes. I think, if a trade doesn’t happen before Sunday, you have to give Reyes another shot. His last start was solid and you have to assume (based on his numbers in Richmond) that he will have a few more K’s.
Also, if there really is an AL team (is it the Angels?) that wants Kyle Davies, my goodness, I would trade Kyle for a meatball sub…Ervin Santana has shown he can be really good.
You know, I’ve thought about the series a little more, and I don’t think it was as bad as the end-result would indicate. Aside from the Davies game (which just means Davies needs to go, no surprise there), we got a solid start out of Jo Jo, an excellent start out of Smoltz, and two games in which the offense came back big-time and we might have won both if we’d caught a break: Andruw almost won one of ’em with a warning-track fly out, Salty almost tied the same one with an at-’em liner, and let’s not forget the play where Chipper was doubled up on a RIDICULOUS play by Phillips.
So this really isn’t indicative of a whole lot of problems. The starters are doing well, the bats are hitting…. we just missed a couple of breaks. How we respond in the St. Louis series will be more indicative of this team’s future than the last two games.
Signing Julio is a low risk/high reward signing. Many of his benefits are intangibles so they won’t show up in the boxscore. That move does not hurt us in any way. If our season came down to Woodward or Franco having to get a base hit, Franco is easily an upgrade. I would bet that 95% of the time he will serve more as a player coach. I don’t think this is such a huge story. It seems like it is just something to complain about in order to remove the focus from getting swept by the Reds.
Braves rumors…interest in Grienke and Dotel
Greinke has a lot of promise and a good arm, i wouldnt mind having him for a few years. he probably wont help much this year
http://www.nj.com/sports/ledger/index.ssf?/base/sports-2/1184819425160200.xml&coll=1
JoshQ-
Amen, brother. Seriously, I would bet half of why Julio wasn’t hitting was being stuck in a cesspool organization like the Mets. He will be so much more appreciated here.
Plus, if Julio takes Chris Woodward’s spot, how can anyone have an issue w/ that? I really don’t understand the negativity aimed at a guy like Julio, from any Braves fans. You want to talk about a guy, beloved by most and a class act, there it is.
Again, he will be a bench player and likely only will steal at bats from Woodward or Thorman, fine w/ me.
andruw, over the last 10 games, has hit .342 with 4 hr and 14 rbi’s. this OFFENSIVE EXPLOSION has added .017 to his batting average which now sits at .216. will he make it to .250? personally, with this newfound approach to the plate, i think he has a shot to get to his career average mark of 35 hr, 100 rbi’s, and a whopping .265 batting average. talk about streaky.
The Reds had not swept the Braves in Atlanta since 1990. Wow…I hate when we start hearing about these pre-streak happenings. Almost as if the Braves are reverting back to the days when they sucked royally, but were on TBS every damn day.
csg, Thanks for the link, but I believe you misread the comment regarding the Braves. They are in on CJ Wilson and not Dotel or Greinke, according to the article, at least.
Wilson looks pretty good…
Ah, I see, I had to read the Yankees section…Sorry, when I see rumors involving the Yankees I tend to ignore them. My bad–
King Diamond…you beat me to it.
And the Braves certainly could have used a lefty reliever yesterday.
Our bench is typically Woodward, Thorman, Diaz, Escobar. Franco strengthens that bench and you can’t tell me otherwise. Wood and Thor scare the crap out of me in a pressure situation and I don’t think I’d trust Escobar in that position just yet (I know someone will hop in and say did you see that gw hit he had a month ago, but 1 hit does not make a career). I’d say having Diaz or Franco to get a big pinch hit is an upgrade for our team.
csg, i think you missed the part of the article that should be the focus of our attention. it looks as though we are close to a deal to acquier c.j. wilson of texas. i dont know much about him, but here are his stats:
http://texas.rangers.mlb.com/team/player.jsp?player_id=450351
Well Josh Q…actually Escobar actually had two big hits. One against Benitez and one against CC Sabathia. Not too shabby, but moving on….
ryan c, I guess I did about Dotel. Look under Yankee buzz it talks about the Braves and Greinke
It’s not the Reds series per se but the overall pattern of play that concerns me. Granted, they were unlucky in a lot of ways, but falling behind 6-0, and not scoring for the first six innings in both games doesn’t seem to me to be positive things. The Reds probably aren’t as bad as they were earlier in the year and teams do lose to worse teams all the time, but the general pattern of the team’s play has to be concerning. The fact is, after the first week of the season, the Braves are two games below .500–and you can argue that the Braves were plenty lucky to win some of those games in the first week.
YES a lefthander tonite and he will face:
The Cuban Assassin
Renty
CJones
AJones
Frenchy
Diaz(please drive in runs for a change)
Salty
Franco or Woodward
Hudson
Wilson has good stats, but looks like he might have control problems. We need a good lefty however
Are there any LH relievers without control problems? That may be a blanket statement, but it seems to be a fairly epidemic problem these days…
Bobby is already quoted as saying that Julio will play tonight. Don’t know if that means he starts, but I’m guessing so.
Dont know if anyone watched the Twins/Tigers game, but McBrdie showed very good control and shut down Morneau on three pitches. Our pitchers leaving and getting better, this seems to be an epidemic also
I bet Julio starts and Bobby will probably have him batting 7th infront of Salty
Marc,
Let’s face it the National League sucks. That’s why the Braves are in contention. As far as the Reds, anytime you can throw out a middle of the lineup with Griffey (24 HR, 65RBIs) Phillips (19HR, 59RBIs) and Dunn(26 HR, 63RBIs) then you will beat some people you are suppose to beat…at least on paper.
You will beat some people you are not suppose to beat…is what I meant.
Brian Fuentes is what we need
if we are talking to the Rangers about CJ Wilson, I wonder if this is part of a larger trade to also aquire Teixeira?
Do they have any starters we want…would we want Millwood back and take a flyer that he can be his old self in Atlanta?
you can throw Hatteberg into that mix also. Lets face it the Reds can score some runs, their pitching is what sucks outside of Harang. Arroyo has good stretches but is the type of pitcher that handcuffs us. We didnt ever get into their pen and we played lousy, it happens. We only lost one game and we should thank the Mets for not running away with this thing. I think last year we were already down by at least 12 or 13 games.
Actually, I was clicking on the stats of several rangers pitching and there are some interesting ‘hidden gems’.
http://texas.rangers.mlb.com/team/player.jsp?player_id=276542
Joaqin Benoit is not a big name but has a fantastic K/BB Ratio–maybe had cheaply as well?
King Diamond, I hear that Billy Wagner guy is pretty solid.
Sorry, I couldn’t resist.
No to Millwood….watching him labor through innings sweating like a pig just brings back horrid memories
If we got Millwood and Teixiera it would make us a lot better, however that would be a lot of money that we would be acquiring. Keep them for this year and trade them in the offseason, maybe?
Next year rotation of Smoltz, Hudson, Hampton, Millwood, and James. I still think I would rather get my hands on Snell/Gorzelanny
Benoit has put up good #’s the last three years as a reliever. More IP than hits and good k #’s. Dont really understand what happened to the era last year, maybe just a little unlucky
Joaquin Benoit has been mentioned in trade talks along with prize Eric Gagne….
“”The way Pat Neshek is pitching, it wouldn’t be surprising if the Twins traded closer Joe Nathan, who is extremely marketable because he’s signed for a relatively meager $6 million next year, for a hitter and to use the savings on a new deal for Johan Santana.””
— Pioneer Press
Article Launched: 07/19/2007 12:01:00 AM CDT
Braves are featured in the latest Dugout…pretty funny.
saw that also, here is the rumor on the braves and Dotel
http://www.kansascity.com/sports/story/195953.html
On the Michael Vick front:
http://www.ajc.com/sports/content/sports/falcons/stories/2007/07/18/vickbrand_0719.html?cxntlid=homepage_tab_newstab
Not a surprise. I hear people generally don’t like to endorse those who supporting dog fights and animal cruelty. Boo Hoo, Mike.
that rotation is a wierd combination of players, past, present, and future. those names do not like right in the same line. after last year (and i know it wasnt his fault), i will never trust hampton to pitch again. so hampton, in the rotation, i would not trust. csg, i do agree that we should go with snell, even though he’s been hit hard lately. millwood and teixera would be pretty big offseason trade bait. i like your thinking. lets get millwood, tex, and cj wilson for salty and a few to boot.
Franco getting slammed by Mets players….
http://www.thejournalnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070719/SPORTS01/707190410/1108
If we get anything from the Rangers it better be TEX.
The fact that the Braves are only 2 1/2 games back is nothing short of a miracle itself, and it shows the inability of the Mets to capatalize. I’d go so far as to say they’re playing as bad as the Braves right now. The Braves, mediocre as they are, still have a chance.
“”Manager Willie Randolph said Franco should get more playing time with the Braves, and the reason he didn’t with the Mets was a .200 average. “If you play, you have to produce. That clubhouse stuff is overrated,” said Randolph, who volunteered the information unsolicited.””
–By JOHN DELCOS
THE JOURNAL NEWS
(Original publication: July 19, 2007)
Justice would be Franco getting the game winning hit against the Mets in September in a game that officially locks the division title for us.
Clubhouse stuff may be overrated, but it still has a place. I would think that the Braves would like a little of that because a guy they know and like a lot is coming back.
CSG..also on SI.com, they were complaining about Franco being to good to stretch with the other players.
I just hope he doesn’t come here and get up in Escobar’s face.
From Buster Olney’s Column at ESPN.com:
• Heard an interesting rumor — and that’s may be all it is, a rumor — that makes sense, to a certain degree: The Braves are interested in Cincinnati right-hander Bronson Arroyo. But I cannot imagine the Reds making that deal without getting Jarrod Saltalamacchia in return; so far, Cincinnati GM Wayne Krivsky has been asking for big-time return in his trade proposals. Arroyo had one of his best games of the season, by the way, and it may be that Saltalamacchia is about to become an everyday player.
To be honest, if everyone is going to apply the bandbox theory to Harang, they should apply it to Arroyo.
I like Arroyo and I think he would instantly be our 3rd best starter.
However, I just can’t see dealing Salty for him. I would trade Escobar and other kids to get Arroyo though.
I would trade Salty for Arroyo, BUT ONLY IF, they eat at least half of his contract
Arroyo has a home ERA of 6 and a road ERA of 3.50, so there you go. I like him, but not for Salty. Snell has ace potential, Arroyo really doesn’t, and that’s the difference in my mind insofar as including Salty is concerned.
I’d be more excited about Harang than Arroyo (though I like them both.) It’s Arroyo’s salary that just doesn’t fit the production.
And Tex I think has another year before he’s a free agent – he’s signed through 2008 I believe. I am liking the idea of a trade with the Rangers more than getting robbed by either Cincy or Pittsburgh.
Yeah, but how do we fit another $11 million player into our budget for next year. We already have to use Andruw’s money to pay for the increases to Hudson and Smoltz.
I love Smoltz, but at $14 million next year his arm better hold up. Hudson at $13 million better pitch like he did at the start of this year
Arroyo isn’t young or cheap. I say no even if Cincy eats most of the salary. And I still say his value is inflated due to being on the 200X Red Sox.
No Arroyo for Salty. Come on now. Salty for a young stud left hander only or for TEX.
pass on Tex, dont trade our best piece for offense when our biggest need is SP
I can’t see JS going for a hitter; it’s not his style, he focuses on pitching. I can’t recall a significant trade for hitting since McGriff. If he trades Salty it will be for a big-time pitcher, but there aren’t a lot of big trades made at the deadline anymore due to money and the fact that more teams are in contention. I think JS will make some deals around the edges but I would be shocked if he makes a big one–although I will say Salty for Snell makes some sense since the Pirates need hitting.
By the way, Harang is pretty good isn’t he?
Well until Salty starts hitting at 1st, I would say our need for a 1st baseman or a leftfielder who can drive the ball is 1A. Salty is hitting under .200 at 1st base, but I think he will come around.
As far as starting pitching goes the Braves I think need only one…and I prefer it be a lefthander. With having to face Utley, Howard, Beltran, Delgado, down the stretch, I think it will be “prudent”.
Tony, Escobar is a better option of the bench in a pressure situation than Woodward or Thor, but not Diaz or Franco for me at least.
Also, No to Arroyo for Salty. that is crazy!!!
Marc, JS did trade for JD Drew.
Does anyone kow if Escobar had any playing time in left field in the minors? If he could play left, we could get both him and KJ in the lineup, while not losing Renteria or Chipper.
The price for starting pitchers is so high, it may be easier to improve by adding a good 1B. And 1B/LF is also a big problem.
Marc,
We gave up Adam Wainwright to get JD Drew…remember that one? Speaking of Harang do the Braves have any what we may call a “power” pitcher in their system at all? I am sick of the small, 89-92 throwing pitchers. Harang is 6-7 275, …well Wainwright was 6-7 230.
I agree, I wouldn’t be surprise if after the deadline we still had Salty, Esco, relief pitcher and a starter.
JoshQ,
I would put Esco up there before Franco or Diaz. Esco is fearless. The thing with Diaz is he doesn’t drive in enough runs. And with no speed at all, him being a singles hitter is not cutting it.
Coz,
I also would like to see both KJ and Esco in the lineup at the same time.
Escobar has all of his options left
why would we push Diaz even further behind in LF, he should get the everyday job over anyone else. The only way you’ll get Escobar and KJ in the same lineup is if Chipper gets hurt or Edgar gets traded.
also Diaz has more power than Escobar, not much, but more
I would put Escobar ahead of Franco. I’m sorry, the guy is 48. To say he is old is like saying Dan Kolb wasn’t the greatest. I’m sure he is in tremendous shape, but a player eventually breaks down. This is probably one of the stupidest signings I have ever seen. Did they do it for nostalgia? Can you honestly think Julio will get better than he has been. A young player at least has the potential to get better. Julio will just allow the Braves to be the beneficiary of the downward trend he has been experiencing the during the past years. The worst part was when Schuerholz said there was interest. He never says anything, so when he said that, it was set in stone. It makes me sick.
That being said, I love Diaz. Now that Willie is revealing his true colors (good call Mac), he should start every day. I know it’s empty, but still, he’s hitting .350. Plus, it’s not a fluke. He can really hit.
I’m ranting. Sorry.
Wilson looks like a lefty specialist, which would be a great fit for this bullpen–and he couldn’t possibly cost us many or very valuable prospects. I’d welcome that move.
And I’ll say it again: I can only hope there are GMs out there with same skewed opinion of Escobar Tony has.
Meaning Diaz should hit everyday
Diaz has not proven to be an everyday player. I see why KC and Tampa got rid of him, he’s a one trick pony. He’s a really good pinch hitter. We tried him everyday already…remember? And we ended up having to call up Harris.
I’m sorry at 30 y/o with only 4 HR/10 double and 20 RBIs in 20ABs just doesn’t do it for me.
Escobar 24/yo 1 HR/8 doubles/11 RBI with a majority ABs in the leadoff spot or batting 8th…I like that better.
200 ABs for Diaz
117 for Escobar
To be honest, I am still not convinced that Diaz is an everyday player and would much rather utilize him as a bench player/platoon split if at all possible. It’s not so much about hurting Diaz is it is about getting the best eight guys out there each night. Ideally, I think the best lineup we could create out of what we have might be:
Escobar
Renteria
Chipper
Andruw
McCann
Francouer
Salty
KJ
Pitcher
Not without its flaws, to be sure, but better than trotting Thorman out there every day and certainly better than keeping someone like KJ on the bench just to give Escobar playing time.
Does anyone kow if Escobar had any playing time in left field in the minors? If he could play left, we could get both him and KJ in the lineup
Seems like it would be more logical to move KJ to left, since he’s actually had ML playing time there.
@155 – but KJ wasn’t very good out there, thus the move to second.
tony, so you wouldnt take this line from LF.
If Diaz got 600Ab’s, 210H, 60R, 30 2B, 12-15HR, and a .350 avg. That’s what the projection looks like
you should look at this, players with minimum 175ab’s this year
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/stats/batting?sort=avg&split=0&league=mlb&season=2007&seasonType=2&type=reg&ageMin=17&ageMax=51&minpa=200&hand=a&pos=all
Diaz can hit, thats all there is to it
Also it really makes no sense to keep Escobar batting leadoff with KJ in the lineup. Why have Kelly hitting 8th, when he’s got more power, more speed, and a higher OBP. If you get both in the lineup, KJ hits leadoff, Escobar bats 7th, and Salty 8th
@158 Fair enough. KJ’s on base % quite good and he probably should have stayed there. And of course, there’s no telling how bad Escobar might be in LF (though surely he’d be better than say Klesko.)
Csg,
Be realistic…if Diaz was an everyday player he would be one by now at age 29 or 30.
Tony,
Is it hard for you to post something not about Escobar? Do you have a crush on him?
csg,
No dude. You keep KJ down in the order b/c he can drive in runs. And front the looks of it, Escobar leading off has been pretty effective. I wish had the time to look up Esco OB% since he’s been leading off…I’m pretty sure it’s good.
more on Greinke, Dotel, and Wilson at mlb rumors
http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/
its good because he’s hitting well right now. If he slumps, in which, he will at some point. He’ll be like Harris up there. No power and cant draw walks.
Well, KJ’s OBP is .392 currently and Escobar is .352, but that’s just in general. Don’t know what each has just as leadoff hitter. In the end, I’m not sure that matters so much as long as we could just get them both in the lineup together.
Really? Really?!?
Their rotation includes two soft-tossing 40 year-olds, a young guy pitching over his head, Oliver Perez, and Jorge Sosa. I wish our rotation were stronger, but I’d take it over the Mets’ in a heartbeat.
Starting pitching:
ATL 34-36, 4.42 ERA, 48 QS
NYM 39-35, 3.98 ERA, 56 QS
The Mets are actually second in the NL is quality starts, we are seventh. Obviously late with this reply but I always enjoy debunking Stu’s little hand waving arguments.
Unless Ledezma turns out to be able to start for us next year, I’m thinking that trading away McBride could turn out to be a pretty stupid move for us. Especially if we now have to trade for a lefty specialist in the pen. I mean, he was a perfect LOOGY if nothing else…. The problem was, Cox inexplicably would send him (or leave him) out there against righties. But then again, I generally don’t like the way Cox uses his bullpen anyways.
Coz, KJ wasn’t moved to 2B because he was bad in LF—he was moved to 2B because we had what we thought were capable LFs and needed a 2B.
And Diaz has deserved to be the starting regular LF for over a season now.
this is surprising to me, look at Harris’ splits. Look at batting 1st and 2nd
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/splits?playerId=4949
I wish had the time to look up Esco OB% since he’s been leading off…I’m pretty sure it’s good.
Esco batting leadoff: .400/.415/.500 in 52 PA
-Disclaimer-
I provide these stats as a public service and not as an endorcement of Esocbar as a regular leadoff hitter, or regular anything for that matter.
-End Disclaimer-
no, KJ was pretty bad in LF and that why Langy beat him out of the job. His defense was horrible out there. yes, Diaz needs to be in there everyday and KJ needs to be the leadoff again.
What would our team era be without Redman or better yet without Redman and Davies
For fun:
Escobar has a .415 OBP (.400 average) in a whopping 54 plate appearances batting leadoff.
In 13 plate appearances, Diaz has an OBP of .462 (.545 average).
In 322 plate appearances, Johnson’s OBP is .388 (.287 average).
Robert, I thought the issue whas which team’s rotation you’d rather have going forward. For me, that’s easy. The Mets have overperformed, although I’m sure you’ll refuse to acknowledge that. I know, I know—the Pac 10 is a great football conference.
csg,
I didn’t say Langerhans wasn’t better in LF than KJ. I said the reason KJ was moved had nothing to do with his LF defense. If you’ll recall, they were still playing him in LF when he hurt his elbow two Springs ago.
how do you get a higher OBP than avg?
Sac Flies.
…assuming you meant higher AVG than OBP.
You’re right, but I was just speaking outloud that his defense was terrible out there. Plus they thought that Langy/Diaz platoon would be good. Who would’ve thought that Langy might be under .100 here in a week or two
I will repeat this again….DIAZ HAD THE STARTING JOB in leftfield earlier this year, but he did absolutely nothing. That’s why we called up Willie Harris. So don’t give me Diaz deserves the leftfield job…no he doesn’t. He’s a singles hitter with no speed, but a great pinch hitter and platoon player.
Stu,
I know you will never have anything positive to say about Escobar…so you don’t have to lace your comments with sarcism.
Wait didn’t Langerhands also be out KJ b/c wasn’t hitting either? Yep that’s true. Sure wish KJ could have clutched up after his error yesterday, but he struck out.
“In 13 plate appearances, Diaz has an OBP of .462 (.545 average).”
I was just wondering how your OBP can be .462 and have a .545 avg
Indeed, Langy won the LF battle and we all know how that turned out. Yes, they were still playing him in LF, but no happy about it and notice how the minute we found capable players to play there instead, they began looking for other places to play Johnson.
Fact is, KJ ain’t going back to LF and as well as Diaz has played there, I do not think he is the long term answer (nor either the short term, IMHO.) But Kelly should not be sitting just to give Escobar playing time – thus, Escobar to LF or trade him Unless some one wants to try him at 1st.)
sarcism=sarcasm
As I said, csg, sac flies.
KJ: 79 games, 7 errors, .981 fielding percentage.
Escobar: 38 games, 6 errors, .943 fielding percentage.
Escobar has been playing out of possition. But KJ hasn’t been too bad with the glove.
KJ: 2nd Base =.981
Escobar: 10 games at 2nd Base =.952, 18 games at 3rd Base=.909, 10 games at SS=1.000.
Tony, Diaz never had the everyday job out there. Langy was still platooning with Diaz until the trade. We called up Harris to get an extra bat on the bench and he played his way into the platoon. Same as Escobar!
Here is Diaz Ab’s by month
54, 59, 55, 32
Francoeurs (everyday player)
98, 111, 108, 56
I looked at the game log and didnt see where he had the job everyday. He deserves it though
tony, it’s funny to me how you praise escobar for his above .300 average, yet matt diaz has a .350 average, and you bash him. you are a walking contradiction. and with this quote from your last post, “He’s a singles hitter with no speed, but a great pinch hitter and platoon player”, you pretty much summed up that you have your man crush on escobar. diaz has 200 ab’s and has 14 extra base hits and 3 stolen bases (without being caught, might i add). escobar has 117 ab’s and 9 extra base hits and 2 stolen bases (also, being caught twice). you bash diaz saying he cant be a regular, but in every aspect of his game, including stealing bases, he’s better than escobar.
CSG,
He had the job everyday, he just was not performing. So the platoon with Willie was started.
give me the dates when he had the everyday job, I dont see it.
Tony,
I don’t know how much you have followed this forum, but the reason that Diaz didn’t stick with those marvelously run organizations, Kansas City and Tampa Bay, was because he couldn’t hit righthanders (at MLB level) and couldn’t field at any level. Even at MLB level, in his call ups he mashed lefties.
The Braves had him vision tested and either added or modified contacts (one eye was bad and he tested before the change at NO depth perception). Then with his vision adjusted, his fielding in the outfield improved and his hitting against righthanders (he has relatively small splits now).
The Fielding Bible +/- system had Diaz as one of the best leftfielders as of about June 10 (+ 8 outs over projection, with part of the year on the bench platooning with Langerhans) See the article on Hardball Times. The +/- system DOES NOT adjust for playing time.
Diaz is NOT slow, he is well above average speed (the +/- show that) and always gives it all he has. About once a week, he beats a potential double play by a foot or two (that some other players who should have above average speed, like Andruw Jones, don’t seem to be able to do).
IF (and I know if bullfrogs had wings they wouldn’t bump their asses when they jump) Diaz would , just a little bit, restrict his out of strike zone swings when he has less than two strikes, take a fewmore walks, and get a few better pitches to hit, he could probably do .300 / .375 / .480 all day and maybe even .320 / .395 / .500. An OPS of 855 to 895 would be pretty damn good (particularly for a non free agent who IS a better than average fielder).
game log for Diaz, still dont see where he started everyday
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/gamelog?playerId=5595
there are a lot of 1 for 1 or 0 for 1’s in there, looks like a platoon to me
Of course, Escobar is a pure rookie just now playing major league baseball and Diaz has been a MLB player for how many years now? Not choosing one over the other personally, as they both have their strengths, but it seems Escobar might have more upside going forward.
Smitty and Tony,
So you’re saying KJ isn’t playing out of position?
Ryan C,
Diaz is 29 y/o journeyman who plays a corner outfield position, where we need him to drive in runs. As evident in Monday’s game, he doesn’t do that with regularity. No he doesn’t have more speed than Escobar. Escobar is still learning the game and plays on the infield. I don’t believe in bashing players, I just state what is obvious. Man crush is silly, I just really like what I see out of Escobar. I can guarantee no one is asking about the availability of Diaz in trade talks. I do like Diaz in certain roles though.
So with his .350 avg, you telling me Diaz is a better hitter than Frenchy, Chipper, Edgar, McCann, KJ…c’mon guys let’s calm down with putting Diaz in the hall of fame.
We’re not putting him ahead of anyone. Your just saying that we have to find ways to get Escobar in the lineup. We are just saying that Diaz deserves it more. i’m happy that both are playing well and dont really care who’ll be better 10 years from now
I had totally forgotten about Drew.
CSG,
Trust me on this b/c we were all clamoring for Diaz to get in over against righthanders over at ajc.com, then we he did absolutely nothing…we were saying we need a leftfielder now. You remember Diaz struggling this year…right?
From our old buddy Jayson Stark’s latest column at ESPN.com:
Meanwhile, clubs that have talked to Atlanta say there isn’t a buyer in baseball trying to be more aggressive or more creative than the Braves. “They’re in on everybody,” says one GM. “Starters. Relievers. Bats. Older guys. Young guys. They’re heating up to do something.”
The Braves are balking at dealing Jarrod Saltalamacchia or the dynamic Yunel Escobar. But other clubs report they are willing to talk about shortstop prospect Elvis Andrus and power left-hander Dan Smith.
“We’re not talking about guys at the level of a [Jeff] Francoeur or a [Brian] McCann, guys like that,” says an executive of one team. “But they’ve still got some real nice pieces to move. They’re just not gigantic pieces.”
That’s why we are here Marc…lol
Tony- Surely you have something better to do than criticize the pennys-on-the-dollar .350-hitting LF, right? He’s no world-beater, and I’ll grant that it’s a pretty empty .350, but it’s still .350! And the guy can get down the line in a hurry.
Right now Diaz is a better hitter than Escobar. I underline “right now.” Maybe in the future this won’t be the case, but right now it is the case. I think one of Diaz’s biggest problems is that he is not sexy enough to allow grown men to get man crushes. 🙂 He just plays the game very quietly and if you don’t pay attention you won’t notice what he does for the team.
Tony, Escobar’s defense has been horrible.
Jason Starks knows his baseball…
“The dynamic Yunel Escobar” sounds about right to me. lol
mraver,
I’m not criticizing Diaz, I just wish he would drive in more runs.
That Jayson Stark report is interesting because I would not have thought that Andrus would be traded anytime soon. He is soooo young and it just seems too early to give up on that potential.
JS also traded for Sheffield, Marc, but I thought you were talking about deadline deals. McGriff’s the last impact bat we got at the trade deadline—unless you want to count Rey Sanchez.
I love that we’re looking to trade the only power arm in the organization that’s between the ages of 16 and 40.
Diaz is a good complementary player. He would be fine if others on the team were providing power. Harris is done, he’s had his 15 minutes of fame. It’s sort of an irrelevant point whether Diaz or Escobar are better relative to each other. Neither is the type of corner outfielder you would like, but Diaz in the past has exhbited a little more power. The Braves real problems offensively are the black hole at first base and Francoeur’s lack of power.
JoshQ,
I notice he left about 6 men on base Monday, but …just wish he would drive the ball with more authority being a corner outfielder. The Reds outfield is what an outfield should look like. 2 power guys with a speedster…With Diaz in the lineup the Braves have 1.5 power guys and a singles hitter.
Tony=Mrs. Escobar
Dan,
Actually he would be Mrs. since I’m 3inches taller than him and outweigh by about 25 lbs. lol
Our options are not the best, I think we can agree on that. Actually I would argue that we typically have 2 singles hitters and an all or nothing power guy every game. Francouer should be a power guy, but I have no clue where that power went.
Juan Pierre – speed = Escobar?
JoshQ,
Unfortunately Josh your description is more accurate than mine. I don’t know if I want Frenchy power to come back, if he’s going to do what he did last year.
Do you think any pitchers fear any Braves hitters? I don’t know about you guys but everytime Griffey or Dunn came to bat…my heart sorta skipped a beat, of course the same will happen with Pujols. What Braves hitters do pitchers fear if any?
“Unfortunately”…Hey I’m sure you have said things I’ve agreed with before. I’m just have to admit that when I disagree I am more apt to tell you so.
“I’m just” great at that there English. 🙂
If we arent looking to trade Escobar right now, what does that mean for Renteria in the offseason. You think he’ll get traded
I’m not sure what I meant but forgetting both Sheffield and Drew was obviously a senior moment. I don’t think the problem is left field so much as it is right field. I mean, we all know that we don’t have a Ted Williams in left, but the power is supposed to be coming from the young stud, Francouer, and from Thorman. Neither Diaz or Escobar are the Braves problems. It’s the overall lack of home run production from the team in general. It’s hard to score a lot runs hitting singles. Chipper is hitting great but the hand injury has apparently taken away a lot of his power. For a team with a bunch of (overly) aggressive hitters, relying on two-out base hits to get runs in is a losing proposition.
I’m glad JS is apparently being aggressive but I am still skeptical that he can really do much. It’s so hard to make deadline trades these days. I hope I’m wrong.
Tony,
Your Escobar lovefest is off the charts insanity, and it has really damaged your credibility on this journal board. Its so bad that you can’t recognize that Diaz is the same player only better, and you should be praising him as graciously as you praise Escobar. There is nothing malicious in this post, just trying to show you the light man.
Justin,
Thanks for your opinion…will leave it at that. As far as my credibility on the board…nevermind again thanks for your opinion. Geez.
So JS actually passed on D. Young, so they are really looking for another bat. I agree the lack of power from Francouer and Thor was totally unexpected.
damn new thread