252 thoughts on “Game Thread: July 16, Reds at Braves”

  1. Mark Bowman says the Pirates will do Snell for Saltalamacchia, but the Braves might not. I thought Schuerholz was smarter than that. I thought Littlefield would be the hold-up. If true, make the frickin’ trade Schuerholz!

  2. Stu,

    You misunderstand me…I don’t hate Aaron Harang and would be happy to add him to the rotation, I just think everyone on BravesJournal is way way overhyping the guy.

    But I would support the notion that he could come to Atlanta and be a solid #3 starter. But a stud ace? No way.

    As for those calling us idiots for liking Escobar, fine, I am a freaking moron because I like how much this guy has contributed since being called up to Atlanta. His defense is sub par, but his offense overall has been very productive for a first year rookie.

    Look, I am with everyone that if trading Yunel nets us a quality top 3 starter, I agree. I am being attacked essentially for not ripping on Yunel. This is really odd to me.

    I am also being attacked for not being head over heels in love with Aaron Harang like he’s the Jessica Alba of starting pitching. My goodness. The guy might be better as opposed to his career numbers, fine; he also might be a legit #3 starter behind Huddy and Smoltz. Fine. But just because I don’t declare him as the next great ace of the national League, doesn’t make me a moron.

    I also stated already I would trade Yunel for Harang because we need a pitcher. But no, I wouldn’t trade salty for Harang.

  3. AAR-

    No worries, I am being somewhat facetious in my comments…there was some tongue in that cheek, a little bit.

    And let’s face it…not everyone is as gentlemanly in arguing their point as you my friend!

    Still, the 90/10 reaction of the site with regards to the Harang and Yunel arguments, and everyone being so sure to declare one guy as savior and one guy as horrible, is pretty extreme.

    I haven’t seen enough evidence from either to have such extreme feelings.

  4. Harang is too good to trade for. Don’t have to worry about the Reds stealing Salty for Harang, because they’d need some serious, serious other pieces.

  5. Another Alex,

    He’s not overreacting…some people on here just seem to think if someone doesn’t agree with them…it’s personal.

    I like KJ and I like Yunel, b/c I am a braves fan, but to hear people cast Escobar as “a good utility player” or waiting for his demise is disturbing and I just don’t get it.

  6. Reds have already said, flat out, they are not trading Harang. It is asinine to talk about him with regard to his being traded…to anyone.

    With regard to Escobar, his OPS is a joke and this is with everyone agreeing that he’s playing out of his mind. His upside is limited as well at age 24. I think everyone covers for him because he plays the game in a charismatic way, but at the end, that and an empty .300 can only cover for so much.

    Put it this way, as horrible as Andruw has been so far this year, his OPS is exactly the same as Escobar’s.

  7. “Mark Bowman says the Pirates will do Snell for Saltalamacchia”

    Well, that answers my question in the last thread…

  8. People probably think it’s personal when you call them “stat freaks,” Tony. Other than that, I just think it’s incredibly dumb to think Escobar is more valuable than Harang.

  9. I guess, to summarize where I am coming from, I don’t believe in any extremes on any player unless you have years and years of proving you are really good or really bad.

    I will never rip Chipper during a slump because Chipper has always shown, when healthy, to be a great all around player. He has patience at the plate and is a leader. he has proven this time & again. Same with Smoltz. If John has a bad start, so be it…but the guy has done so much for the Braves, I will never rip him.

    Andruw, while always having been a great power hitter and defensive player, has had years of elongated slumps and striking out way too much…always swinging for the fences when he should act more like Chipper and just go the other way. Andruw has incurred my wrath because he’s done enough dumb things at the plate, too often, to suddenly make me think he’s growing up–it’s why I have never been an Andruw fan.

    Chris Reitsma, Keith Lockhart, these guys were never that good so I ripped them accordingly.

    The bottomline is that I haven’t seen enough evidence at all from Yunel Escobar to just soundly rip the guy. He’s done a helluva job in his short time in Atlanta and he’s out there busting his butt to help our Braves win. So yeah, I am not going to be negative on Yunel unless he gives me (like say Kolbb) a reason to.

    And as for Harang, I like the K to BB ratio, sure, but I don’t like the career ERA. If he leaves Cincy and is suddenly an ace type pitcher, I have always been the type of person to admit when I was wrong about someone–like Adam LaRoche after he started taking his ADD meds.

  10. I missed the conversation on the other thread, but it sounds as if it got heated. I don’t agree that Harang is merely a #3, I think he’s a legit #2, one who has posted solid peripherals even while playing in a bandbox ballpark, but the truth is that he isn’t going anywhere right now… the Reds want to add another pitcher, as drewdat said, and probably believe that next year they could put together another winning season so long as they add that piece.

    Anyway, I doubt Scheurholz sees Salty as untouchable, for his value lies primarily as a catcher – he happens to be a damn good one, especially when put next to McCann – and the Braves of course have two. The move to 1st won’t be permanent for that very reason: Salty will always have much more value as a catcher, for his bat is very good but not great, at least by 1st baseman standards. So I think that in time he’ll be moved. It’s possible that Scheurholz is hoping to pull another Lillbridge out of Littlefield, or something. We’ll see what happens.

  11. My goodness…david15, neither Tony nor I is saying Escobar is more valuable as opposed to Harang.

    Does anyone read what I am saying? I am simply saying that it’s not right to bash Yunel when he;s done a pretty good job as a rook, and there is not overwhelming evidence to say that Harang is the next Smoltz or Peavy.


    These are two separate things.

  12. While the concern of the last few days seems to be which one of our prized rookies should / should not be traded, I am wondering what happened to the bullpen. It’s a good thing that the starting pitching has improved lately, because Yates, Wickman and even (gulp) Soriano, have looked all too human lately. With Fredo gone for another week or two and Bobby seemingly gunshy to use Devine — (I don’t think he can bear to think of seeing Joey on the mound with the bases loaded ever again) — we may need to add another reliever to the wish list before Moylan’s arm falls off.

  13. Alex,

    First, nobody is calling anyone a moron for “liking” Yunel. I like Yunel. I doubt there’s anyone on here who doesn’t. The issue is whether he’s as good as you, Tony, and others seem to think he is.

    And as for Harang—how much of a track record does it take to convince you? Three years is apparently not enough. Also, you keep mentioning that career ERA—do you not trust park-adjusted stats and do you really think his ERAs from four and five seasons ago are that relevant to the pitcher he is today?

  14. I too am very happy with what Yunel has provided since coming up to the big club, but what he has provided and what I believe he will provide are 2 different things. I think he is at a peak value right now and if we are to get any better, then he has to be traded.

  15. Stu,

    And this my last point on this b/c dammit I am even tired of talking about it. To the people that know the best, and those are the people who seen him “struggle” in the minors and play up here in the majors, they like what they see. And from what I’ve seen of Escobar in the majors, I like him too.

    One more thing, if he was that horrible in the minors, he wouldn’t be up here…

    Let’s just see how it plays out before predicting doom on one of our players. So far with him leading off against LH, he and the team are doing pretty damn well.


    I guess Ryan Howard’s upside was limited at age 25 too…as Joe Simpson would say…MERCY lol

  16. Neutralized stats for Harang from B-R:

    2005: 13-10 3.55 ERA 163 K 49 BB 212 2/3 IP
    2006: 16-10 3.17 ERA 222 K 52 BB 241 2/3 IP
    2007: 9-6 3.31 ERA 122 K 35 BB 136 IP

  17. But no, we’re not getting Harang, even though JS is probably badgering the Reds’ GM as we speak:

    “Oh, come on, give me Harang. I’ll be your best friend! You know you want to!”

  18. And Alex, nobody is “basing” Yunel, either. Nobody’s making fun of his potbelly or saying he’s greedy for having a fleet of cars and wanting a big contract—we’re saying that he’s playing over his head, that even his current play isn’t as great as some are making it out to be, and that we should attempt to take advantage of this seemingly overinflate perception and attempt to strengthen the team in more pressing areas.

    I don’t think you’re fairly representing the “trade Yunel” side’s arguments at all.

  19. If the Reds trade Harang…then they should just trade Phillips and Freel while they are being stupid.

  20. Oops, *”bashing” Yunel.

    Tony, the people in the know are trying their best to elevate his value to a point where he can bring as much as possible in a trade. I agree with Dan—I will be very surprised if he’s a Brave after July 31.

  21. If you want us to get better, then who do you propose we trade? If you take Salty AND Escobar off the table, then who else has the value to bring back a #3?

  22. Tony, I think there’s a world of difference between calling someone “a good utility player” (as I did) and “waiting for his demise.” Can we agree on that?

    The point of the minor leagues is to get a sense of what type of player a prospect can be. If they strike out a lot and don’t walk a lot, then they’ll probably have marginal strike zone judgment; if they hit a lot of doubles and homers, then they’ll probably have power that translates to the major leagues. On the flip side, if a guy hits nothing but singles in the minors, even if he’s 7 feet tall, he’s not gonna start cranking 40 a year in the majors unless he starts juicing like a pro wrestler.

    It’s always possible to misuse and misrepresent statistics, and the AJC and ESPN columnists have made careers out of it. But that doesn’t mean you should ignore the numbers. It means you should understand what they mean, so you can’t be fooled by someone who’s trying to make a poor argument.

  23. Also, Stu, nobody is complaining about how much he smiles. I can’t believe Alex R. is complaining about people bashing Braves players, especially since all I’ve read anyone do is try to moderate the more excitable among us who like to crown any rookie who comes up and plays well for two weeks. It’s ok to hate future HOFs, but not ok to be cautious about anointing a guy who has played average baseball for a very short time?

    The Harang hate is even more baffling. And while, yes, Alex, I’m aware you never said Yunel is better than Harang (I never said you did, so it was sort of weird to read your outrage), nobody here has compared the guy to Jake Peavy, to my knowledge. Harang’s a really good pitcher, however, and to deny that is just to be hard-headed for hard-headed’s sak.

  24. Stu,

    I never said the guy was untouchable, I just hope the other GMs in baseball are as dumb as you and other posters seem to believe they are…seeing how Escobar is barely a major leaguer. Man, I hope they don’t read the bravesjournal…

    But then again, they have scounts. Dammit.

  25. Ian Snell? Really? I have in my mind that Snell is a step below Harang, and I would not trade Salty for him. I’d like to hear the reasons in favor of that trade, though.

  26. The Reds GM is just the guy to take advantage of. He was swindled last year by Jim Bowden. Come on, Jim Bowden?!? Really Krivsky? You are that dumb? That is a sign of a terrible GM. Also, I would be dying right now if I was a Reds fan. You know you have a bad GM when the GM you fired the year before is screwing your new GM in trades.

  27. Off the top of my head, I’d bet some of the reasons are that he is a #1 or #2 with 4+ arb years left.

  28. Another Alex R,

    I know your post meant well, but I think I have a good sense of what the minor league system is designed to do. However, your homerun comment can easily be disputed and has been throughout history.

  29. Wait how was the Reds GM swindled by Bowden? I’m here in DC and Kearns and Lopez have been garbage all year…

  30. Also, it bears noting that pitching right now is a lot more valuable as a trading commodity that hitting. Snell is just entering his prime, is affordable, and is really really good. At this point, Snell has proven he can be successful as a major leaguer, something you can’t say of a prospect.

  31. Stu,

    Hmmm…who do you like? Anybody? I thought Joe Morgan was the hated one around here…is it now Joe Simpson too? Again…MERCY!

  32. david15,

    First of all, we all bash players in this site. I am not alone. We all do it.

    But I bash guys when they have proven to either be completely horrible (re: Kolbb, Lockhart) or bash players who aren’t horrible, who are actually good, but continue to do mind numbingly stupid things (re: Frenchy, Andruw).


    Gee, I thought I clearly apologized about the personal stuff with Andruw and backed off in every way on that, and that was accepted in here…why you are choosing to bring it up when I clearly acknowledged to drop that stuff about ‘Druw is beyond me.

    But you choose to bring up something we all had dropped. I have merely been defending Yunel Escobar, a 24 yr. old playing his butt off as a rookie and helping our team win soke games. How awful of me.

    Still, Andruw made his own personal choice to have the AJC feature his cars in March, before the start of the season in a contract year asking for ‘fair market value’. It’s not my fault that Andruw made the conscience choice.

    It’s also not my fault if he’s not keeping himself in the same shape he did when he broke in as a rookie.

    Chipper Jones, John Smoltz, these veteran Braves who I have never had anything but love for, keep themselves in tip top shape every year.

    But it’s always more fun when people bash me.

    This entire thing stems from me defending a 24 yr. old rookie who has gone out there, played pretty darn well, and is helping the Braves win games. Somehow, I am awful for defending him.

  33. I don’t think it’s bashing to state Escobar’s ceiling might be utility. It is what he’s doing now, after all.


    Factors working against being a, say, Top 15 SS/2B:

    Limited minor league stats relative to age
    Low power output
    Hasn’t walked much
    Average speed at best for a MI
    Inconsistent with the leather

    Working for:

    Decent to good BA skills
    Infectious attitude
    Seems to know the strike zone OK (why so few walks in MLB?), can handle the bat with two strikes – situationally, a good PH
    Good size, should have the frame to hit with more authority (but why isn’t he?)
    Good defensive tools, I think – arm is pretty good

    So it would seem like a little on the job training would be necessary for Yunel to be a good MI. I’d say he still has some development left to be a Top 30 SS or 2B, as he’s really about average right now in all facets for various reasons, and most MI’s have a good quality that makes them an attractive starting candidate.

    Defense and speed, he probably won’t get any faster, so he won’t be a Furcal speed type. I would expect his defense to shore up with experience, which would probably put him in the lowest-tier starting SS/2B range at best, good backup at worst.

    Offensively, right now he really needs either more walks, some power, or Gwynn-like BA’s to be better than average. BA is pretty prone to fluctuations, even at the season level, so without some other redeeming quality, you could have some ugly .265 years in there. I don’t really know whether to expect any more power – maybe a little, which would solidify the average offense. He walked at a good rate in Mississippi last year, so you’d think that would show up at some point.

    Of course, working against the chances of improvement is the age factor, 24 at the least.

    I wouldn’t have a problem seeing him as a 20-30 range SS or 2B, but he still has a little work to do to get there, and time isn’t exactly in his favor.

    Comparing with Lillibridge, I’d give Brent the edge in speed, probably equal in defensive, pretty close in BA, obviously Lillibridge in OBP, and Brent in power as well. Projecting, I’d think you’d have to go with Lillibridge, who looks to have Top 15 potential, though he still has things left to prove. You would certainly hope Andrus has a higher ceiling than 20-30 MI as well.

    I don’t think we necessarily should trade Yunel, though, even if his value will likely never be higher. We need to get something useful in return rather than pulling a Betemit. Vazquez, sure, Contreras, probably not, but maybe the scouts see something? Arroyo, yeah, probably would take a good prospect as well though.

  34. Tony, I appreciate the compliment. And I didn’t mean to sound pedantic or condescending; you just seem pretty hostile whenever one of the “stat-heads” starts breaking out the numbers or attempting to use minor league equivalency to describe a certain player a certain way.

    But can you give me some examples of players who were singles hitters in the minors and became home run hitters in the majors?

  35. I don’t think anyone was bashing Escobar. Saying he would probably end up being a super sub type guy is not peanuts.

  36. The Harang hate is even more baffling. And while, yes, Alex, I’m aware you never said Yunel is better than Harang (I never said you did, so it was sort of weird to read your outrage), nobody here has compared the guy to Jake Peavy, to my knowledge. Harang’s a really good pitcher, however, and to deny that is just to be hard-headed for hard-headed’s sak.

    Indeed. Doesn’t think much of Andruw or Harang, loves Escobar. That’s our lovable Alex R. Trying to figure it out or change his mind is pointless.

  37. Alex,

    I was just trying to show you the difference between “bashing” a player and not. And no, not eveyone on this site bashes players.


    I like Skip and Pete. And I liked Joe when teamed with Skip—with Chip, he’s insufferable.

    I’ve also enjoyed Sciambi’s work thus far. I keep waiting for him to drop a line about VORP and hear the ensuing Simpson remarks. It’s bound to happen and it’s bound to be a classic.

    By the way, last I saw, Huddy was 10th among starters in that category, which was a little surprising. Snell was 15th, for whatever that’s worth.

  38. “But can you give me some examples of players who were singles hitters in the minors and became home run hitters in the majors?”

    I can. Jason Giambi. Which…pretty much proves your point.

  39. Honestly, Robert, I am happy anytime to have a fair argument about players–that’s all I have tried to have.

    But really, one thing I haven’t done to one person in here is insult them personally and I have now been insulted by at least 3 or 4 different people today.

    No matter how many nice people Braves Journal has (like AAR), people love to take personal shots at me, even though I am merely trying to have a legitimate talk about players.

    Seriously, I would like one instance where I was personally insulting to a poster. I may argue players, but I really believe in respecting the way we all talk to one another as individuals.

    Even when Tony & I were disagreeing with regards to the Terrence Moore issue, I made sure when I was making my point with Tony, to be respectful of his P.O.V. and make a fair argument.

    But stuff like “That’s our lovable Alex R. Trying to figure it out or change his mind is pointless.” is kind of sickening to me.

  40. Tony,

    Gary Mawjeski pitched 15 innings in ’06 (after the trade) and then his arm turned into dog vomit and he has pitched 5 innings this year. Bill Bray pitched 27 innings in ’06 and hasn’t pitched one inning for the Reds this year. Royce Clayton isn’t on the Reds this year and is producing at about the same level as Felipe Lopez this year, except he is doing it for the Blue Jays.

    The guys the Reds gave up: Kearns, Lopez, and Ryan Wagner are all on the team.

    I’d say Bowden got the best of Krivsky by a long shot. Even though these aren’t the best players for terrible sub .500 teams. I’m sure some broke @$$ nats and reds fans have had fun with this trade on their boards.

  41. Ethan,

    I guess Ryan Howard’s upside was limited at age 25 too…as Joe Simpson would say…MERCY lol

    @17- He combined for a 1.022 OPS and 38 HR between Philly and AAA in 146 games. Yunel, for all his cojones, is gearing to 5 combined HR and a OPS of under .800 between Richmond and Atlanta.

    I don’t get the comparison and his upside is still limited

  42. @ 40. I agree, Sciambi has been a pleasant surprise, and it will be great when he drops VORP on Simpson.

  43. 3 or 4? Alex, please cite one other instance today in which you were insulted. Remember, pointing out flaws in your reasoning does not constitute a personal insult.

  44. I think today sets the record for posts beginning with “I never said” or “Nobody is saying” or the like. Can I get the last ten minutes of my life back?

    Go Braves!

  45. Hardy??? Half a season, dude! SMALL SAMPLE SIZE! STATISTICAL OUTLIER CALLING FOR A REGRESSON TO THE MEAN! Remember Brian Roberts a couple years back? Hardy just proves the point you’re trying to refute.

  46. Stu,

    Relax with the caps…18 hr is more than he ever hit in the minors. And Hardy is only 25 y/o.

  47. Stu, breathe, dude.

    J.J. Hardy hit 12 homers and 26 doubles in AA at the age of 21. Escobar hit 2 homers last year in AA at the age of 23, in approximately as many games.

    Yunel Escobar has less power than J.J. Hardy. QED.

  48. BX,

    So wait, does that raise Yunel Escobar’s perceived value?

    Thankfully, the Kelly Johnson that matters to all of us is still alive & well.

    Stu, to be fair, you used to rip me (well for a lot of things but I would like to bury the past?) for all caps.

  49. Another Alex,

    What did Escobar do at age 21? We don’t know he was in Cuba…Again Escobar has spent 2 yrs in the minors, he got a late start. Now is he going to hit 30 HRs a year, I doubt it. But 15 to 20 HRs are not out of the question for a guy his size.

  50. Alex, if I ever do it with the frequency you used to, feel free to rip me right back.

  51. Escobar hit 10 homeruns in over 900 minor league at-bats. Most leadoff hitters (Escobar is not a leadoff hitter, not with his OBP and stolen bases) have 600-650 at-bats in a full season. He has one in over 100 major league at-bats. Escobar will never hit 15-20 homeruns in a year. That’s tantamount to the New York Post’s prediction of 20-25 homeruns for Jose Reyes in 2007.

  52. And Stu, if my emails ever get too mean spirited aimed personally at other Braves Journal posters, you do the same for me.

  53. Personally, if the financials could be worked out, I wouldn’t mind seeing Dunn in a braves uni. He’s criminally undervalued by the Reds, and they appear to be dead set on trading him.

  54. I don’t see how anyone could think that Saltalamacchia for Snell is a good trade. Salty is much more valuable as a power hitting catcher then Snell is as a pitcher.

    And many of you guys are vastly underrating Harang. Dude plays on a crappy team, in a band box and puts up for his era, great stats and wins alot.

    Now, having said all that, Escobar is not a great prospect by any stretch. He has almost no power and is expected to play a corner infield position. He does little else besides hit singles. He’s not very fast, doesn’t do anything exceptionally bad and is prone to defensive lapses. If John can get anything better than Kyle Davies and the “normal” Buddy Carlyle, I say go for it. A pitcher that can go 10-8 with a 4.20 ERA for Yunel would be a steal, IMO. Yunel’s empty singles is much less valuable than a 10 game winner leveraged against a decent ERA.

    Yunel is a good bit player, but nothing more. Bill Mueller-lite IYAM.

  55. Hardy himself has admitted that he’s no power hitter and merely got a ton of great pitches to hit at the beginning of the year thanks to Prince Fielder hitting behind him. Hardy’s numbers have returned to normal, only 2 homers in the last 30 days.

    Its funny how unwilling people can be to trade prospects to fill a position of need. Remember how upset we all got when we traded Marte? You have to balance winning now with winning in the future. Salty is a great prospect and seems to be a can’t miss kid, but he’s not our only good young catcher. Hitting prospects are a dime-a-dozen compared to successful young pitchers with affordable salaries.

    On top of that, your average free agent batter costs a lot less than your average free agent pitcher. If we trade Salty for a pitcher it will be quicker and easier to replace him either from within the system, and cheaper to replace him via free agency, that it would be to find a #3 pitcher for our rotation.

    Salty’s nice to have but we need a pitcher more.

  56. Ultimately, if the Braves made a “minor” deal to bring in a solid veteran bat like Kevin Millar, it makes it a lot easier to move salty for a high quality starter.

    The one thing none of us really want to see is regular P.T. for Woodward or Thorman again.

  57. Dan,

    I understand your absolute disgust the Escobar is on the big league roster, but you should know by now…you can never say never in baseball or life. Who would have thought when George W. Bush was a cokehead and alcoholic that he would be Prez…twice. I’m not going to say a guy with Escobars size will not be able to hit 15 to 20 HR in a season. I’m pretty sure batting lead-off he is not going for the fences on every swing, a la Alfonso Soriano.

  58. The disgust we have Tony is not at Escobar, or even his value, perceived or real, but at those who defend his perceived value, as being his real value.

  59. Tony,

    You’ll hear from Mac on this but we leave the political opinions outside this site.

    I have agreed with you today about defending Escobar, but not everyone on here is of the same political beliefs and we should all respect one another on that front.

    No reason to bring politics into the Braves arguments we are having.

  60. I agree with Dix on this one: prospects are overvalued by many of us (myself included). It’s almost as if a guy becomes less valuable when he reaches his potential. Trading Salty for a proven asset or two makes plenty of sense, especially when you consider he probably won’t ever be the Braves’ full-time catcher. Snell is a very good, young pitcher. Even if he has reached his potential, which he probably hasn’t, he is a bona-fide #2 or #3 guy for the next several years. In his prime he may even improve to being a #1. While some folks see no reason to do the Salty-Snell trade, I see no reason not to do it. Very few of the Braves traded prospects have come back to haunt them – even Wainwright is struggling as a starter now, and he’s one of the few ‘success’ stories – while many of the vets they’ve brought in have helped enormously. I love the Snell trade idea.

  61. Huh??? When did he say Escobar isn’t valuable to a big league roster? and What the heck does it have to do with Cokeheads?

    Can we please stop dealing in extremes?

  62. Thorman gets regular playing time as it is now even with Saltalamacchia.

    Also, props to Mark Bowman for choosing Kelly Johnson over Escobar in today’s Braves’ mailbag.

  63. Alex,

    Huh? First, I’m not sure what you’re talking about. Second, please don’t try to start something. I’m sure the good people of this forum could do without another episode of As The Stu And Alex Internet Relationship Turns.

    I’d be happy to exchange emails with you. Hit me up at vandyst at gmail dot com.

  64. Bloggers…if you have read the previous posts about why Escobar is garbage, can’t you say I agree with Stu, Dan or whomever. I mean everyone wants to write a 3 paragraph long diss on the Cuban Assassin…it gets old and very repetitive. You obviously are not going to change anyone’s mind and I have a comeback for everything…as Stu has already noted.

    Almost 6pm and I’m about to hit traffic from hell…

  65. Alex R.,

    Chill dude, it was a joke. And by that joke you don’t know my political affiliations. So relax…

  66. Tony-

    Please understand…your personal politics have no bearing on me, and it’s not upsetting. but because of some nasty political fights in this forum before, Mac has forbid politics arguments in here.

    Again, I was only letting you know because there is a healthy mix of Dems and Republicans in here so we should all just stick with Baseball, or non controversial chatter like movies, TV, other sports. That’s all!

  67. I didn’t really think that was about politics either. It was simply a factual statement about President Bush and how surprised someone would have been in 1985 had they been transported into the future of 2001. But I don’t see how it has anything to do with baseball performance. It’s sort of a ridiculous analogy.

  68. Tony, please be prepared to back up your claims. If you say that Yunel could hit 20 homers in the big leagues, offer some form of evidence to support your assertion.

    C’mon, Alex and Stu, you’ve gotten along so well for the past couple years! It’s been great to see you two making nice instead of fighting. (I think a lot of that was Stu being tongue-in-cheek, albeit mean, while Alex thought that Stu was being earnest.) Shake hands and make up, you guys!

  69. I would do Salty for Snell in a heartbeat. The trade puts the rotation over the top with Snell in at 3, Chuck back to 4, Carlyle to 5, and Davies to not in it. It would also be fairly easy to pick up an adequate 1st baseman (ie Millar, Johnson) and any difference between them and Salty would be more than offset by having Snell in the rotation.

    Plus, when the postseason comes, you need at least 3 good starters. Snell allows you to do that; the current rotation does not.

  70. AAR-

    You really should get a job at the U.N. Considering some of the hacks there, they could really use your services :-)

    But Stu and I will be fine…I liken it more to a married couple that occassionally needs to bicker.

  71. Ok…my last question. So if we can’t trade that worthless, Cuban exile we have leading off against lefties…then what do bravesjournal GMs suggest we do with him? Obviously with the next Derek Jeter down the pipe and I’m being serious, well that’s who they are comparing Elvis to….what do we with bravesjournal enemy #2. Behind Joe Morgan of course.

    By the way Alex R., you don’t need to premise any disagreement you have with me by stating you have defended me in the past…

  72. Will have to finish this at home…going home now from doing nothing at work today!!! Damn it’s good to have your own office….

  73. Send him to Cuba to convince Elian Gonzalez to abscond and accompany him on the first manned mission to Mars?

    What kind of a question is that? Besides a terribly framed one, I know that much already.

  74. Who says you can’t trade him? And I’d put he who shall not be named (but has a blog named Danny) ahead of Morgan. Could you imagine Morgan and Chip together though. It’d be like the perfect storm

  75. You could have a tag-team pro-style wrestling match between Morgan/Chip and Rathburn/Torgborg and the winner gets to make your ears bleed for the next ten years.

  76. ethan,
    only if there is a death match between the eventual winner and joe theisman.

  77. Tony, if it’s impossible to trade the wonderful, angelic Yunel Escobar, I think we’ll just have to have a bobblehead night in his honor every night for a month.

  78. Honestly, Robert, I am happy anytime to have a fair argument about players–that’s all I have tried to have.

    But really, one thing I haven’t done to one person in here is insult them personally and I have now been insulted by at least 3 or 4 different people today.

    Insult you? I called you lovable! And I didn’t mean it in a, totally, sarcastic way. Your passion is certainly admirable.

    But stuff like “That’s our lovable Alex R. Trying to figure it out or change his mind is pointless.” is kind of sickening to me.

    Apologize if you are sickened. But some of the vitrol you have spewed towards Andruw this season has surely sickened plenty of readers, myself included. The second best thing about Andruw recent hot streak (the first obviously being that he’s helping the team win) is that I don’t have to wade through that garbage anymore to read this site.

  79. i’d kill to see someone break both of joe’s legs this time, rip them from his body, then maybe beat him to death with them…only after they bite off his tongue.
    but hey that’s just me :X

  80. Tonight’s lineup

    2b Escobar
    Ss Renteria
    3b Chipper
    Cf Andruw
    Rf Frenchy
    Lf Diaz
    C McCann
    1b Salty
    P Davies

  81. Pretty darn good lineup—even the pitcher’s a fairly tough out. Assuming he lasts long enough to have any plate appearances.

  82. Well, if this game were in the Cincinnati bandbox, Davies probably wouldn’t. Turner Field should protect him from some of his mistakes.

  83. Seeing Brandon Phillips in the Reds lineup reminds me of when another NL East team thought they needed one more starting pitcher to win the division. So they went out and bought 17 starts of Bartolo Colon. The cost? Three prospects named Grady Sizemore, Cliff Lee, and Brandon Phillips. Super ouch. They still missed the playoffs.

  84. Wow. Washington could have won this division in 2005 with those three guys on top of what was already a .500 team.

  85. Robert,

    Come on. When has JS ever traded 3 guys that became average-to-impact players in the majors?

    And surely you can agree that this Braves team is better than that Expos team was (and has less competition for the division title), no?

  86. Bowman says in his mailbag that the Braves are seriously considering getting another reliever and are looking at Octavio Dotel and Otsuka. I don’t like it.

  87. When has JS ever traded 3 guys that became average-to-impact players in the majors?

    Right, that’s sort of the point. JS doesn’t do stupid stuff like this, and doesn’t trade his good prospects. He also doesn’t go and get the big ticket guy out there that you have to pay a premium for. He’ll get somebody under the radar for B level prospects. Just pointing out for the ‘prospects-schmospects’ crowd out there that you can end up looking pretty foolish with that strategy.

    And surely you can agree that this Braves team is better than that Expos team was (and has less competition for the division title), no?

    They finished 83-79. I could easily see us end up there if Smoltz doesn’t come back like he was. The recent uptick aside, we’ve looked pretty .500ish to me.

  88. i’d say it’s pretty safe to bet either junior or dunn will take kyle deep. let’s hope he doesn’t walk anyone before they get up.

  89. OK, nevermind, Salty for Snell. Do it. I can not watch this slop anymore. I hate to be rude but Davies just stinks, long term.

  90. I’m gonna go play poker for awhile, this is depressing shit

  91. Holy crap, did Redman sneak back on the team? See you later. Have fun in the minors. I didn’t think Bobby had a quick hook in him.

  92. I did chuckle at 113. I think Cox yanked Davies before he could vomit all over the dugout.

  93. 1. I hate the overshift with men on base.
    2. Davies had no idea where the ball was going.

  94. Trivia: If Villareal throws a no-hitter from here out, would he be credited with pitching a no hitter?

  95. For Bobby to pull him this quick we might even hear him say Davies sucks ass.

  96. If the Braves can get out of this with 3 runs or less, they have a great chance of winning. The Reds pitching staff is atrocious.

  97. Oscar is the man. I can’t imagine that Davies isn’t going down when they take Smoltz off the DL. Jo-Jo can’t do any worse than that.

  98. Hmmm, that was freaking impressive. WOW. BTW i think JS just pulled the trigger on salty for another starter. Or he should have

  99. Mr. Rubber Arm would be starting if we didn’t need him in situations like this so much.

  100. #125

    No, the Reds have a hit. However, if Davies had walked the first three or four batters without giving up a hit, the no-hitter would still be intact.

    Babe Ruth once walked the first batter of a game, and was then thrown out for arguing. Ernie Shore came in, the guy on first was thrown out stealing, and Shore retired the next 26 in a row. It was a combined no-hitter, though, not a perfect game for Shore.

  101. OSCAR! Great job.

    Re: Davies. It is even more frustrating when your guy isn’t throwing strikes. At least make them put it in play.

  102. sansho1:

    Thanks. I thought I remembered hearing about something like that happening involving Babe Ruth.

  103. Congrats to whoever had zero outs in the first in the “Davies blows the game and gets pulled” pool.

  104. What the hell !!! Why did Chipper and Andruw swing at the first pitch from a guy they have never faced before ? Take a pitch !!!

  105. Looking at Davies’ pitching line…it’s quite impressive, actually, that he walked 3 guys and allowed 2 hits with only 22 pitches.

  106. Question — why is it an automatic ejection to argue a balk call? You can argue just about anything else — why is the balk excluded? I remember when this became the case, but I can’t remember why.

  107. the braves aren’t really known for their bat smarts when facing a new pitcher. which is why they see so many new pitchers.

  108. Quick question to anyone who can help,

    I have tickets to Wednesday’s day game, when do they open the park to watch BP? It’s going to be hot as Hell, but I’m going to try to stick it out.


  109. man they should have left davies in and sent in the rest of the “towel” squad. now the whole damn bullpen has to suffer for his ineptittude. i hope davies soen’t see another start in the bigs this year.

  110. Mets and Phillies both have late games; Mets against the Padres, and the Phillies against the Dodgers.

  111. If Davies ever pitches in another game for us this season, Bobby should be taken out back and beaten with a stick

  112. Who would if Bobby didnt? This has got to be the end of the line for Davies, he’s just too inconsistent…..Trade him with Escobar for a decent #3 or #4 guy…..someone who can go 6-7 innings giving up 3-4 ER’s a game…this is maddening

  113. perhaps the voice inside the leo mazzone bobble head doll on his desk…i’m gonna split. enjoy the game.

  114. Davies is horribly inconsistent, but Oscar ain’t no savior either!

    Look for Davies to be sent down, keeping Reyes with the parent club. Can’t imagine he can be any worse than Davies.

  115. Clearly, Villarreal’s no savior, but I’d much rather have him in the rotation than Davies. There’s a lot of room between savior and Kyle Davies right now.

  116. I agree Tom….bring back Charlie Leibrandt, or the ghost of Rick Mahler….that would be better

  117. “Livingston reached on bunt single to catcher, Encarnacion scored, Lopez to second.”

    How did Encarnacion score from 2nd on a bunt?

  118. I wouldn’t be surprised if this is one of those 9-8 games when all is said and done.

  119. Let’s hope so, Chief. The Braves have no business winning this game, but the Reds’ pitching is so terrible they could turn this into a ball game.

  120. Boy, Devine must either scare Cox terribly or he’s done something to land in the dog house.

  121. Well Jeff, it may have something to do with a couple of memorable Grand Slams he gave up….

  122. Or it could be what he’s doing now (though honestly, that might be rust from sitting on his butt).

  123. I’m not one to criticize Bobby much, but his “use” of Devine has been inexcusable, IMO.

  124. Jeff, my thoughts exactly. hell its been almost 3 weeks since he’s pitched back to back days. I’ll chalk this one up on Bobby for not using him before now

  125. I would guess that last inning insures that Devine won’t see the light of day again for a while. He might beat Davies back to the minor leagues…

  126. Right now we might be watching the worst defensive infield in major league baseball.

  127. Would anyone be surprised if Davies is included in whatever trade the Braves end up making in the next couple of weeks? Bobby seems to have lost all patience/confidence in him…

  128. id rather davies be sent down and the man without options, paronto, be thrown in with any trade to make room for devine/startup permanently

  129. I would be surprised that someone may actually want him, like what was posted before Davies has been the 2nd worst SP in MLB over the past two years. The only one that was worse was Redman

  130. You swing that hard with 2 strikes and the based loaded you should be shot at dawn.

  131. terrible call…I really think Bobby is trying to think of ways to kick Davies to the curb, any other time he would have been thrown out also. Davies is the only thing on his mind

  132. csg,

    bobby only uses paronto in blowouts, and only for one inning at that. a reliever cant have much less value than that, at least oscar and go multiple innings/spot start and devine/startup have upside.

  133. Gameday fixed it (said it was Frenchy), Now it says “Delayed: Power” What’s up?

  134. some lights went out, games back on and we are trying to not score. Bases loaded now 2 outs

  135. From the official site, Francoeur showing his stupidity.

    Atlanta is one of several teams “chasing” 10,000 losses. The Cubs, Pirates, Reds and Cardinals each have at least 9,100. The Braves’ franchise has 13 100-loss seasons, but just three since 1935. The longest period of losing came from 1904-1912, when the Boston Beaneaters, Doves, Rustlers and Braves endured nine straight 90-loss seasons.

    “I couldn’t name you a player from back then,” Francoeur said. “Maybe Honus Wagner, I don’t even know if he was around then. That was a long time ago.”

    Way to go Frenchy.

  136. Yeah, probably a little harsh. But there are plenty of Hall of Famers from that time period.

  137. oh yeah, Thorman still sucks and if looking at it right he’ll start 5 of the next 6

  138. Good news for tonight is that the Braves have been able to have plenty of baserunners.

  139. The last Braves starter to start a game and fail to record an out…Tom Glavine, back in 1989. Good company for Mr. Davies.

    Not that that means anything.

  140. Hey another inning that we would have been out of, but no Thorman is playing and he decided that Moylan should have to get 4 outs.

    Woodward > Thorman/Davies

  141. I said before the season started that anyone that swung and missed as much as Thorman had absolutely no chance at the MLB level. He swings and misses as much as Rob Deer, but oddly doesn’t strike out at a rate such as Adam Dunn or Burrell. He just usually pops up or GIDPs.

    Thorman is a non-entity and has no MLB future. Sadly enough, but true. And for those that say well he has 8 HRs if you or I lifted weights all day and swung as hard as we could, eventually a blind hog finds an acorn every now and then.

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