ESPN.com – MLB – Box Score – Braves at Pirates
So, once every five days, decent starting pitching. Smoltz went seven, struck out six, allowed just one run on six hits and didn’t walk anyone. He just avoided a home run to Burnitz that became a run scoring double; other than that he was in charge pretty much the whole game. He only needed 99 pitches, 69 of which were strikes.
The hitting heroes were LaRoche and Giles. LaRoche hit a pair of solo homers, one to break open the scoring in the third, and one to make it 4-1 in the sixth. Marcus had three doubles (he’s looking good back in the 2-spot), scoring on a McCann single in the fourth and driving in Thorman in the fifth.
With a 4-1 lead, the professional if not exceptional relievers took over. Baez pitched a 1-2-3 eighth with a strikeout. Wickman ran into a bit a trouble and allowed his first Atlanta run (unearned) on two singles (one of which was a routine groundout that hit the third base bag and bounced up) and a Renteria error. But he came back with the strikeout to end it. I swear, you don’t miss mediocre relief until it’s gone.
The Braves did leave eight men on base and strike out ten times, so it’s not like there weren’t problems. But a win’s a win. You don’t miss the Pirates until you’re playing the Mets.
csg… that strike-out total stayed under somehow.. (10k’s is still too much though)
Josh Willingham just went deep for Florida off of Billy Wagner. Mets lose 6-5. There’s one of those games back.
I am glad Smoltz is winning at a high percentage with this sub .500 team. It worries me on his HOF chances that his career winning percentage isn’t much better (and maybe is worse) than the teams he played for. Now it is true that he was on the same team with 2 other HOF pitchers…
Two quick things:
1) HUCKLEBERRY! THATTA BOY!
2) When Chipper returns, where do you put our lead-off hitter? Left field….?
Shouldn’t we be pulling for the Mets over the Marlins at this point?
I think he is, Stu. That’s why he said “there’s one of the games back.”
definitely. reds lost too. i believe we’re 5.5 back now.
Si. We ideally need the best teams (NY, STL, and… SD?) to go undefeated except against us, the teams in front of us to split against each other and lose against the division leaders and Cubs and Pirates, Cubs and Pirates to beat everyone but us until they get too close, and of course winning all of ours. There’s a little wiggle room there, obviously, but not as much as one would like.
Yeah, but we’re also tied for ninth.
So the Marlins winning today is one game they can’t win against a WC competitor.
Baez and Wickam have performed well so far.
Smoltz was Smoltz.
Is it just me or is LaRouche becoming a slugger?
Oh, wait, crap. I messed up. You’re right Stu. My bad.
Is it just me or is LaRouche becoming a slugger?
He’s now 12th in the NL in slugging, so I believe you’re right.
As I listen to John Sterling do his usual, annoying “Thaaaaah Yankees Win!” radio routine—which always sounds like he’s caught his hand in a car door—I remain amused to know that his real name is actually Harold Moskowitz.
Dunno why that cracks me up, but it does.
“Josh Willingham just went deep for Florida off of Billy Wagner. Mets lose 6-5. There’s one of those games back.”
There is a very small chance the New York Mets won’t regret the deal they gave Wagner by the time her contract is up.
I’ve said it before. I’ll say it again. LaRoche is monster in the 7 hole. He deserves to play there every day now.
And Wickman does so well pitching under pressure. It is good to have your blood pressure a bit lower in the 8th and 9th innings.
So if LaRoche is our firstbasemen next year is that a problem? He seems to be improving . . . Dare I say he shows some promise . . .
I remain amused to know that his real name is actually Harold Moskowitz.
He’s responsible for all the wars between the Yankees and Red Sox.
Too bad we have two unbelievable 2 hole hitters. Personally, I miss Giles in the 2 hole.
Can’t say many bad things about Edgar’s production though.
With Wickman out there, I’m not as nervous or paranoid like I used to be with the previous “closers”.
Sosa could try get a save in video game and my stomach would still be in knots..
Just a thought, but I remember for a while in St. Louis Renteria was in the five hole. Giles does seem most productive in the two so maybe this could be a possibility.
Also I kind of wondering with Rob. Where exactly does our new leadoff hitter go when Chipper gets back?
If Adam was only in New York he would be a star
Paul, if Adam was in New York, people would be naming babies after him. Same with Frenchy.
Dan, Wagner has now blown 5 saves and converted 22, for an 81% conversion rate. Last year’s despised Braden Looper converted 28 and blew 7, an 80% conversion rate. Yeah, they fixed that closer problem real good.
And about the wild card- we are tied for 9th, but Colorado is third with a record only two games better than us. A couple of wins and the Braves can’t help but pass several teams.
That’s why I don’t buy that “too many teams are ahead of us” BS.
The Rockies just lost too. The Braves sweep the Pirates, we ain’t in ninth.
For crying out loud, has the mood become so pessimistic that people on here think the Braves can’t beat out the rest of the cream of the crap in the NL?!
After more than 105 games, we’re 7 games under .500. I’m an optimistic guy and I believe the Braves can play better, but it’s hard to get too fired up about that.
I don’t think it really matters how many teams are ahead. It would if there were only a few weeks left in the season, but there are still two months to play, and basically all of those teams can be expected to play about .500 the rest of the way. 84-86 wins will probably take the wild card, and that’s definitely doable.
Davies pitched 2 perfect innings tonight with 3 Ks
He looked really good… it was great to see him back on the mound and hopefully we can get him back up soon! Pitches looked great! I only remember maybe a couple times someone getting a good piece of the ball other than that… they didn’t do too much with him! He looked great!
If the performance of the starting rotation does not improve, it doesn’t really matter how bad the other teams play.
The problem with having so many teams ahead of us is that they won’t all play around .500 — a couple will fall apart, a few will play okay, and a couple will get hot. It’s likely to take 85-86 wins, so we’ll need to win 2/3 of our remaining games, minimum, while hoping nobody else wins 60% of theirs.
Who is the guy on Fox Sports who does “The Final Score” or something liek that, real nasally/Joe Buck/suck ass.
He calls Mike Piazza “The Pizza man”.
Sam why isn’t anyone marvelling the Braves won a generic Baseball game? Not 15-5 Not 15-11, but 4-2 with a closer situation thrown on top.
There is some upside….
Wickman is 3-0 in save situations, Baez has awesome stuff-his fastball has a nice angle on it. Bullpen fixed.
Smoltz is pitching great.
Hudson needs to be decent, Ramirez needs to throw inside, and Davies needs to come back.
Davies before he got hurt had that great outing against the Mets, AND he has 3 pitches, all he can throw for strikes.
downside
Hudson still sucks, so does Ramirez, James is getting blown up and adjusted to.
I hope I’m not like the 12th guy to post this, but here is a frighteningly accurate portrayal of the story of Wilson Betemit.
As the morning begins there are 23 teams with better records than the Braves. I am optimistic that we can improve…
Otherwise, the news keeps getting better: assuming that the New Haven Register got it right Tyler Flowers–one of our better hitters at Danville–has just been suspended for 50 games for steroid related issues.
And we still have Tim Hudson…
think we’ll claim anyone off of waivers this year. Jon Lieber, Livan Hernandez, and Randy Wolf are expected to be available. I guess we’ll probabky stay with a Smoltz, Horacio, Hudson, James, Davies (once healthy) rotation.
I love the end of this video
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/recap?gameId=260801128
There’s still hope, where is everyone?
Sure, I want to stay with the Braves,” said Jones, who will make $13.5 million next season. “I’ve been in Atlanta forever. But it’s a business. I don’t have a say. It’s the Braves’ choice on a trade.
“I don’t have a say where I play until I’m a free agent. So far, they haven’t come to talk about negotiating a new contract. That will come later.”
Entering the Pirates series, Renteria led the team in hits (122), runs (70) and stolen bases (12) while ranking second in doubles (23), on-base percentage (.395) and total bases (180). His fielding percentage (.980) is the highest by a Braves shortstop since 1942 (Eddie Miller, .983).
Can anyone still second guess this trade by JS. I’m glad we got rid of Marte for Renteria!
Yeah, but csg, if we didn’t have Renteria, we’d be able to watch Marte strike out twice and make an error every night. I think we got the short end of that deal. Right, jenny?
True csg, Betemit would have been a decent SS. I seriously doubt he would have been as steady as Renty has been. It was also nice that we had Betemit as a back up with both Giles and Chip hurt so much. I was upset that Marte left, but I understand that he may never be anything and we were sure that Renty was a solid player.
The Marte/Renteria deal is not something that can be fully evaluated this very instant, but in the short-term it can’t be called anything but a good trade.
Yeah, ububba, you’re right; I just like giving jenny a hard time.
Ok, I know that you have all been waiting for what I got from the game so here it is:
1) LaRoche is our everyday first baseman now and for the next few years. He has really stepped up his play after his lolly-gag moment. Got to give the kid some credit, he might hit 30 home runs this year.
2) If we can get our starters to give us seven decent innings, game over. Our bullpen looks really solid now that everyone has a role.
3) Two months ago we would have lost this game. The crazy way those base runners were getting on in the ninth would have caused (fill in one of our terrible closers) to start over throwing and walk a guy before he grooved a goffer ball. It is nice to have a closer and a set up man.
4) We may be behind or tied with a few teams, but if we have a good road trip, we will pass most of them. We need to enter September near .500 and with in three games of the wild card leader, with maybe two or three teams in front of us.
I really like how this team responded last night. They could have rolled over and lost this game, but didn’t.
I remember complimenting JS on getting two such valuable players as Michael Tucker and Keith Lockhart for a fundamentally flawed outfield prospect like Jermaine Dye. Give it time.
Don’t remind us Mac…
Same here csg, I don’t know why some people still haven’t embraced Renteria.
Smitty, #3 I cant agree more. If we can somehow just start winning series again, then everything could fall into place for us. The Reds did improve their bullpen, but they’re not that impressive. Houston pissed off their best pitcher and it will be interesting to watch them play from here on out. They also cant hold leads for their starters for some reason. What’s up w/ Lidge, Qualls, and Wheeler these days. I think they have clubhouse probs., but who cares. We still have a shot, as long as, we win series.
Oh yeah, I need to give LaRoche props. We have the best 7 hole hitter in baseball right now!
Giles has been killing the ball, but he was doing so before he got in to the two hole. He is missing Furcal being on frst and guys craping their pants and having to throw fastballs to try and cut Furcal down steeling. But I love my Renteria and wouldn’t trade him for two Furcals.
Yeah, the Astros have a clubhouse problem. His name is Phil Garner.
Two Furcals would cost the Braves four times what one Renteria does.
Apparently the Dodgers wanted two Furcals, though, because they got a second one in Julio Lugo.
Aybar only has 17 strikeouts in 138 at bats. Let’s see if he can keep that up.
the Dodgers dont know what they want, and that’s hilarious to me for some reason. They now have Furcal, Betemit, Kent, Garciaparra, and Lugo and they gave up two very good/cheap prospects for them to have an over-crowded infield. Oh yeah, and then there is Maddux.
How fast is Aybar, is he capable of stealing bases on a regular basis? He looks as if he could possibly develop into a Renteria type hitter, maybe not that good but he makes good contact. I also like the fact that he’s a swtich hitter that doesn’t K much.
Its time to “Jordan” Pratt and call up Pena. He’s a good contact hitter too. Also, he had the game winning HR in Richmond either last night or the night before.
Speaking of game winning HR’s. How many walkoff homers can Ortiz hit this year? He’s gotta be on some kind of record setting pace. Can anyone look that up?
Since joining the Red Sox at the start of the 2003 season, David Ortiz has hit nine walk-off homers (including postseason).
He’s got 5 walk-off hits this season and 3 of those are homers.
In the past 3 seasons he has 15 walk-offs, 8 of those being on homers
sorry, 9 of those 15 are homers
Thanks. What’s the record?
I guess there is something to that clutch hitting stuff
5 guys have 12 walk-off homers in their career.
Jimmie Foxx……….12
Mickey Mantle……. 12
Stan Musial……….. 12
Frank Robinson……12
Babe Ruth………….12
Ortiz now has 9, so he’s 4 away from taking the lead. I think he’ll get there before his career is over at the rate he’s going.
I think he might get there by next Thursday
Actually…those 9 Ortiz has hit, have been as a member of the Red Sox. He also had 1 walk-off HR as a member of the Twins back in ’02.
So, he has 10 walk-off HR’s in his career…needing 3 to become the all-time leader
He’s in some good company. I think he will pass it too.
this is different that what I heard…
http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/news?slug=rotowire-ndruwonesravesurnedo&prov=rotowire&type=lgns
apparently we turned down the Andruw trade, according to this source!
What??? I thought that was the trade were were holding out for. I really hope we didn’t turn down that offer.
apparently, they think he can resign him. They had better be right
This has to happen
http://go.reuters.com/newsArticle.jhtml?type=oddlyEnoughNews&storyID=13038987&src=rss/oddlyEnoughNews
The Marte/Renteria deal is not something that can be fully evaluated this very instant, but in the short-term it can’t be called anything but a good trade.
Absolutley. We wouldn’t be tenth in the wildcard race without Renteria. And that’s important because…um…
You should have stopped at the comma.
Thats ridiculous, Robert. Without Renteria, we’d be much worse than we are. And Marte still wouldn’t have gotten any playing time.
By your reasoning, none of the players on our roster this year are valuable, because we’re 10th in the WC standings.
To Robert: I don’t follow your logic. I do know this: being tenth and 5.5 out is better than being 13th and 15.5 games out (as our current opponents are). And given Renteria’s stats, it’s logical to say that he has been a big part of keeping us this close. So, in the short term, good trade.
To Robert: I don’t follow your logic.
Sorry, let me be more clear. It’s extremely unlikely that we are going to win anything this year. Missing the playoffs by one game or missing them by 20 games is the actually the same, you missed the playoffs. Trading a top prospect to become a little less bad, is not a good trade in my book.
There are still a lot of ways it could go. Renteria could be strong for a few more years and Marte flop, then it’s a good deal. Renteria could fade and Marte become a star (he’s only 22), then not so good. My point is just that it’s way too early to call it, and saying that it’s a good deal because we are holding off the Nationals for last place this year is silly.
we traded a PROSPECT for an ALLSTAR and I cant understand why JS would want to do that.
It’s amazing that people get excited because the Braves win one game. Wake me when they are getting some decent starting pitching more than once every fifth day. And, it’s also funny to see the LaRoche bandwagon forming (at least until the next time he hits into a double play) and people falling off the Francoeur wagon. Could it be the Braves were right–that LaRoche is a good player and just needed some time to develop?
And if TBS keeps showing those damn stats about how many two-out RBIs Francouer has, I’m going to break the TV. What about all the situations in which his lack of discipline leads to outs?
agree on the 2 out RBI crap. Does a 2 out rbi count as 1.1 runs, or something? And pray tell, how many 2 out LOB does he have? You would think 15 years into understanding what walks and OBP can mean to runs, that someone at TBS would have caught on, by now.
He does have the 2nd most hits on the team. Even if it’s because he has the most at bats, it still works out to almost the same hits per at bat as Huckleberry.
yes, but the hits are kind of the point; he has a lot of hits because he never walks (which extend innings, and create RBI opportunities for other players). I think Frenchie has much more natural talent than LaRoche, and LaRoche is having a much, much better season, because Frenchie insisted, at least for the first 100 games of the season, on swinging at way too many balls way out of the strike zone that he had no ability to drive, much less make contact with. If he fixes that one problem, he can be great. if he doesn’t, he can be Dave Kingman, with a nicer smile.
You say that like hits don’t create RBI opportunities and extend innings. That doesn’t make any sense. I would rather have a hit with runners on than a walk. He didn’t get all his RBI’s by walking instead of hitting.
We all agree he needs to be more patient, and he has improved, but just because he has 25 less walks than Huckleberry doesn’t make him a liability. Some people on this board act like he is. His good defense also gets overlooked…
So does his bad defense (read: consistent overthrows of cutoff men) by some…
He has worked on his trhowing and the threat of his arm has saved us a few times this season. He is young and is getting better. We shouldn’t bash either player.
I knew someone would bringup the overthrows. But he improved that quite a bit and the threat of his arm makes up for the overthrows. I’ve seen a number of people not run because of Frenchy’s arm.
Frenchy is like a two year old Lab. He is fully grown but still acts like a puppy sometimes, and has yet to reach his full potential.
I like the lab comparison.
I agree that, generally, Smurph’s defense is a positive that helps the Braves win games.
Just so you know, I was never one who bashed him; I just said he hasn’t been as valuable to the team as LaRoche has this year.
I may come off as a Frenchy basher, but I like Jeff. It seems that Lando has made it into a LaRoche vs. Francouer (read: Apples vs. Oranges), in which case LaRoche comes in way ahead over Francouer.
Considering they both have pretty equal defense, the defensive argument is a moot point. Adam doesn’t have a killer arm (doesn’t need one), and Jeff doesn’t pick balls out of the dirt (doesn’t have to). Aside from extending innings, it’s really not a good thing Francouer has so many hits. I know that sounds weird, but it’s because he doesn’t walk. The reason he doesn’t walk is because he hacks at slop and that leads to tons of strike outs, which don’t advance runners or extend innings through the chance of an error.
I wouldn’t call Jeff’s defense moot. The average right fielder should help his team more defensively than the average first baseman (that’s why you look for first basemen who rake…their defensive contributions, no matter how great, are going to be small in number), so Adam might have to be one of the greatest defensive first basemen of all time to be even considered as an equal value to Smurph, who throws out lots of runners and keeps others from advancing, defensively. And, no matter what you think of Adam’s defense, he ain’t that good.
Jeff’s defense has been a greater asset than Adam’s; but Adam’s offensive numbers have more than made up the difference, so he’s the more valuable overall player.
That’s my take, anyway.
I know.
Rob, if you look at the stats Huckleberry would have WAY more strikeouts then Frenchy if they had the same amount of at bats. So that argument is in Frenchy’s favor.
At bats: Frenchy Huckleberry
425 325
Strikeouts: 88 81
7 more strikes in 100 more at bats? Looks to me like Huckleberry is more of a liability when it comes to striking out.
Adam does have a really good arm. He was drafted by the Marlins out of high school as a pitcher
I can see that take. However, while I agree that good defense at first is less important than anywhere else on the diamond, I don’t think its contribution is that small in number. I agree with Bill James’ defensive spectrum deal, but I don’t think there’s a huge gap between a right fielder’s defensive value and a first baseman’s. The reason I say that is each one can kill you rather quickly, so they can’t be that far off from each other. I have to say there’s a big difference between someone like JT Snow’s defense and David Ortiz’s towards helping a team win over 162 games, similarly to, say, ::Insert Gold Glove Right Fielder:: to Jose Canseco’s defense.
Huckleberry would have 100+ strikeouts with another 100 at bats.
Yeah, but he only gets to display that on, like, 2 relay throws per season.
True Stu.
A good first baseman saves you at least one run a game.
Yeah, there’s a big difference between JT Snow and Big Papi, but I don’t think the difference matters nearly as much as the Canseco-Ichiro gap. Our disagreement seems to be over how much the difference matters.
Smitty, I’m sorry, but there’s no way that’s correct.
It’s funny how people talk about all the outs Frenchy makes but they never mention, or acknowledge, that he has a significantly higher ratio of strikeouts per at bat, than Frenchy.
Yeah, Lando, but in those 100 at-bats, LaRoche (.339 OBP) would reach base 5.5 more times than Smurph (.284 OBP). And that’s pretty significant.
That Huckleberry does*
Need an edit button 😀
Good point, Lando. Then look at walks, too. In 100 less atbats, LaRoche still has 3.5 times as many walks. Translate that over 100 more atbats, and the margin increases. Add that to the gap in their OPSes (150 points), and there’s a pretty good difference, strike outs or no strike outs
Umm, which would be negated by the extra 20+ strikeouts he would have Stu. And I would say those extra strikeouts would outweight the 5.5 times reaching base. How many of those 20 would be with risp?
Sure there is. Call Aramas Ramerez in Chicago and ask him about Lee.
Yeah, that’s the question Stu: how much does the difference matters. I wonder if you could statistically figure it out…
Lando, did you really just say that? Do you really think LaRoche striking out 20 more times over 425 ABs is equal to him walking 5 1/2 times more? Really?
No, Smitty, not one run per game. Maybe, like, .3 runs per game or something. One run per game is A LOT.
Wow, Lando. I just don’t know how to respond to these ridiculous arguments you make. Agree to disagree, I suppose.
Alright, one more time: REALLY?!
Because there’s no difference really — when it comes to producing runs –in strikeouts and outs. They’re just outs. I’d rather have a strikeout than a GIDP. There may be some major differences in how a player develops, and a guy with a really high strikeout total (say, Mel Nieves) can have the Ks destroy him. But a guy who makes 350 outs, 150 by strikeout, is going to produce more runs than a guy who makes 400 outs, 50 by strikeout, in the same number of PA (assuming even power numbers — and the high strikeout guy would probably hit for more power).
Last time, I swear: REALLY?! Haha I’m done.
The difference we’re talking about, Mac, is between Right-Field-Defensive-Importance and First-Base-Defensive-Importance. There are 2 or 3 different conversations going on at once here, so I can see how you’re confused.
Actually, I’m completely confused. I’m pretty sure I don’t even understand what you’re saying, Mac.
Well, Mac, you gotta take into consideration things like the chance of an error, moving a runner to third with a groundball to the right side, sac flies (which I know wouldn’t be an out on his batting line, but you know what I’m saying), all of which are important.
Oh wow, we’ve fused like three conversations together into one.
Haha, are you really that much of an ass Rob? REALLY?
I’m on your side, Stu, and it was in response to comments like this:
Lando, ignoring that you’re comparing a ratio to a count, there’s no way that the difference between a strikeout and a regular out is anything like as great as you assume. The advancement issue is balanced out by the double plays.
I don’t think so. Do you think so? REALLY?
I think at the end of the day, the issue here is your subconscious stubborn relunctance to admit that Francouer is less valuable than LaRoche right now. I mean, come on dude, just drop it. The facts have spoken. Your best argument is “20 k’s.” I mean, come on.
Thanks, Mac. I was seconds away from yanking my hair out.
look at hardball times; i think this is pretty easy. A line-up of 9 Adam’s would get you 6.1 runs per game. A line-up of 9 Frenchie’s would get you 5.1 runs per game. 9 Andruw’s get you 6.8 per game, so to put that in perspective Adam is closer to Andruw than Frenchie is to Adam.
Frenchie’s year, despite the RBI’s, is pretty darn weak.
I didn’t know strikeouts were so trivial now. Thanks for clearing that up Rob.
Anytime, bud.