ESPN.com – MLB – Box Score – Blue Jays at Braves
Miserable Braves Loss Type 2.4(b): “Horrible, Horrible Bullpen Blows Eighth Inning Lead.”
The Braves got two runs in the fourth, thanks largely to sloppy Blue Jay defense. Chipper was hit by a pitch, Andruw got an infield single to third (which I thought a real third baseman would have had a play on), McCann singled. Francoeur grounded out but beat the relay to first, then LaRoche reached to score the second run on a “single” that a real third baseman would have handled.
Horacio pitched out of a couple of early jams, but gave up a run in the sixth on a double, walk, and single. He was actually pretty lucky — the single could have been a double, and could have scored a runner all the way from first but there was a catcher running. He got out of that. Then he walked the leadoff man in the seventh, only to see him get caught stealing. But with two out it was another walk and another single, and Bobby finally had no choice but to get him.
Yates actually got out of the inning. The Braves had a chance to score in the bottom of the inning but didn’t. The Horrifying Chad Paronto came in and immediately walked the leadoff man. The Desiccated Remains of Mike Remlinger gave up two straight hits to tie the game, then intentionally walked the bases loaded. He “got” one out on a bunt. Ray came in and almost got out of it, getting a grounder to second they couldn’t turn two on.
Bobby has so little faith in the bullpen now that he admitted after the game that was the reason he played for the win, not the tie, in the ninth. He called a hit-and-run after Langerhans reached on a bunt single, but Marcus didn’t make contact and Langerhans was thrown out. To add to the depression, Diaz and Renteria singled with two out, only to have Chipper line out to end the game.
And so it goes. Don’t say you’re surprised. On to Tampa to meet our betters.
I’d cry, but its just funny now…..so I laugh…..stupid Braves……SERIOUSLY, JS, GET OFF YOUR @SS AND DO SOMETHING! I don’t care if its promoting a new beer vender, SOMETHING!!!
Hard to make contact when you don’t actually swing.
The good news….the Braves won’t have to face Scott Kazmir!
Games are becoming VERY difficult to watch. Even after we had the lead early in the game, I had that sick feeling, just knowing that we would blow it. We have to be sellers now, using the Marlins as a model. We have good talent to trade, we should be able to get some Grade A prospects, and give it another run next year. I agree with Johnny W., its time to do something, its been time to do something for weeks, but JS really better get it going now……
You know, the Royals have won four straight (we can hardly dream about that right now). The Devil Rays, Rockies, and Brewers have better records than we do. I mean, this is not a great team, but we can’t be THIS bad, can we?
BTW, got another Email from Rob Neyer, he states that he has always sung the praises of Bobby Cox……my memory must be going, hasnt he always been one of the first to announce year after year that the streak is over?
Look, this season is over for post-season chances (we are on pace to finish 65-97, and to win 92 games, we would have to go 62-27 the rest of the way…not going to happen), so JS doesn’t need to get off his a** and do something; he needs to calmy figure out when we can next contend, and what he can do to help us get there. I am sadly of the opinion that the run of this core is over, and that maybe 2008 or 2009 is when we can next contend, with the guys at Rome now being the youth of that team.
What is the deal with this pitching staff and walks? Maybe we really are missing Leo and his throw strikes and let the batter put it in play philosophy. I’m almost starting to miss Christina Reitsma and his back-back-back-back soft singles.
How weird is it that in June a series with the Devil Rays is the most important of the season? But if we can’t win at least 2 in this one, we are completely and utterly done. Probably we are already.
How many losses in a row will it take before Bobby finally moves Giles out of leadoff?
Giles didn’t bat lead-off last night. We’ll have to see what he does tonight.
I’m not sure what your beef with Neyer is, but he has been extremely gracious towards Schuerholz, Cox, and Mazzone. I’m not sure why Braves fans get so mad when he predicts the Braves won’t win the division. That is all he has done, and it’s a perfectly acceptable opinion to hold. He caught a lot of heat for saying Francoeur should be in the minors. He shouldn’t, he should have been called up for the first time two weeks ago.
I say this because I have corresponded with Rob numerous times over the past few years. He has been extremely polite and helpful to me.
My point is, LAY OFF NEYER. He’s an excellent writer and an even better person.
Funny thing…I watched the game last night until HoRo came out. After that I somehow knew that whatever transpired next would be something I did not want to see. I don’t even think winning 2 out of 3 against the DRays would even be worth getting excited about. It’s going to take a lot more than that to get me back in a good mood.
In his current book, Neyer (in an side) ranks Bobby with McGraw and McCarthy as the three best managers ever.
Does anybody remember the last time we had a starting pitcher go at least 8 innnngs? The starters have to shoulder some of this as well. Their pitch counts are getting rediculously high becuase of the walks and not challenging the hitters. I have no problem bashing the bullpen, but the starters have got to go deeper. Smoltz must go eight or nine if we have any chance of winning.
I am sorry, but this season for the purpose of play-offs IS over; we are not going to play .700 ball over the rest of the season (playing .700 over a full season translates to 113 wins), which is what we need to do to get 92 wins.
The rest of this season is about our next run, and how to best get there.
I don’t get the anti-Neyer sentiment, either. Yes, he always picks the streak to end, but at the end of every season, when it doesn’t, he always gives all the credit to Bobby et al for getting the team to, in his opinion, overachieve.
team ERA is 4.84, second worst in the league. i would guess that puts our starters ERA is the mid 4’s, and that is where we have our money spent (Smoltz; Hudson). When you play .411 baseball, you cannot blame just the bullpen, or the bullpen and hitting. On most occassions, there is something going wrong everywhere.
This reminds me of Sosa’s last start; 4 runs in 6 innings (6.00 ERA); bullpen gives up 2 runs in 3 innings (6.00 ERA), and the bullpen gets bla,ed for the loss. Lots of blame to go around on that one.
I hadn’t realized that we would have to play .700 ball in order to reach 92 games. I’m not even sure if that would be enough to get a wild card berth.
If feels so weird to be so close to saying wait until next year. I haven’t heard that for 15 years.
You can’t expect pitchers in this day and age to pitch complete games every night and certainly not 39 year olds. It’ s unrealistic. If you get 7 good innings, you have to win the game. With all the whining for Leo, no one remembers that the Braves pitching wasn’t that good the last couple of years; walks were up and strikeouts down. No matter how good a pitching coach is, he can’t make chicken salad out of chicken ****. They have nothing but journeymen minor leaguers and washed up guys in the bullpen. I do, however, think there are legitimate complaints about Hudson; I find it unfathomable that a supposedly ace-type pitcher does things like walking the bases loaded after two outs. I find it hard to figure this guy out; he seems to figure out ways to give up runs.
I think one of the problems is, however, that the team is trying to o hard and is pressing. Everyone is trying to “turn this thing around” rather than just relaxing and going out and play baseball. Baseball is not a game that you improve at by trying harder. These guys are not used to losing; you can see how dazed their expressions are after the game. (At least we have Brian Jordan’s leadership on the team; where would we be without that :,).
And, as bad as the bullpen is, I disagree with the notion that some here have expressed that the hitting is good. It’s not good; it’s awful. There are holes up and down the lineup and Francoeur’s home runs tend to hide the mistakes he makes. Last night,early in the game with, runners on first and second, 3-2 count, pitch is low, if he takes it, bases are loaded with one out. Instead, of course,he swings and strikes out. Now, I like Francouer; I enjoy watching him play and he is immensely talented. But he just can’t keep approaching his at bats like this is high school. And, of course, Renteria and Chipper, in the eighth with a chance to get an insurance, swingly weakly at first pitches and ground out.
Also, I am increasingly disturbed by the tendency of the players to take refuge in the collective failures of the team rather than taking personal responsibility. They keep saying, WE need to play better; why not I need to play better. The other night, why didn’t Hudson say, I pitched like crap and cost us the game. No one seems to want to take responsibility for what is going on.
“we can’t be THIS bad, can we?” As Bill Parcells will tell you……You are what your record says you are!
Definitely time to think sbout the future. With all the holes this team has, I’m not sure that even next year is a viable chance to contend. I definitely fall in the let’s sell off veterans for prospects camp, and see if we can get the new John Smoltz for the old John Smoltz.
The starters, as a whole, haven’t been that bad. Sure Sosa and Cormier suck (as does HoRam, of course), but the starters have a 4.65 ERA, 16th in the league above teams like St. Louis and Boston. (And certainly good enough to lead us to a better record than we have.) The starters also have pitched 5 complete games, tied for the lead league with San Francisco. (Admittedly Bobby probably left starters in longer than most because he didn’t want to go to the bullpen.)
The reliever’s have the most walks in the league, an their ERA is 5.32 ahead of only Kansas City’s 5.72.
Man Kansas City’s bullpen must really suck.
Basically I’m not defending the starters, just pointing out they aren’t the problem. I guess that is defending. Anyone complaining that the starters aren’t going into the 8th isn’t being rational. I mean Bobby’s already leaving them in for 120+ pitches.
I would list who are our champion-level players, in 2007, by position, and where we can fill in holes.
Brian McCann, C
Andruw Jones, CF
John Smoltz, SP
Tim Hudson, SP
The end.
Note that people are advocating the trade of 3 of those 4. Not so sure that’s wise.
My problem with the starting pitching is they are not being efficient enough with their pitches. Too much nibbling in my opinion. I don’t think that is not being rational. Those complete game stats mean nothing because none of that has happened in the month of June. I’m sorry but when your bullpen stinks you HAVE to expect more out of your starting pitching. Too many unnecessary walks are killing us.
Let me also add:
Chipper, 1B
At 3B, his defense is way too terrible. And his injury risk is higher. Someone remind me why he hasn’t been moved yet.
In all seriousness, Renteria is championship-level, too.
3 potential championship-level players: the WB (if, as a regular, he’s as dynamic as he is as a sub, and we have good reason to believe that’s the case), Francoeur (if he matures as a hitter, and I think that’s happening, however slowly), and Sosa (I honestly expect him to thrive in a set-up/closer’s role, but we obviously don’t know that yet).
Lets do nothing. That way next year we can see if we really are this bad or if it was a fluke.
I think they said last night that our bullpen has 15 blown saves (or is it 16 now?). That’s the problem. The hitting’s not been great and the starters could definitely improve, but if we had pulled out 10-12 of those 15 games the season is looking a lot different right now. We might not be at the top of the division, but we’d be close and things wouldn’t look this bleak.
That’s what gives me any hope for next year. JS’s #1 priority should be fixing the bullpen. He has almost a whole season to do it.
Getting Hampton back (next year) and putting Sosa in the bullpen are a start, but we need a lot more new bodies down there. We’ve got Thomson, HoRam, Giles, a good farm system, and a little bit ‘o’ cash (at least I hope we do) to work with, so there’s no excuse not to really get some shit done for next season.
No more burnt out journeymen and AAAA never-will’s, we need bona fide major league relievers.
Chipper isn’t gong to learn a new position at this point of the year. I think he will move in the offseason to first.
If Chipper continues his slide, then I think we will definitely see him moved to 1st. If he won’t go to first I wouldn’t be surprised if we tried to trade him in the offseason. JS has to know that we won’t win a WS with Chip at 3rd. It is just a sad fact. An infield of McCann, Chip, M. Giles, Renty, and Betemit is pretty solid if you ask me.
“JS’s #1 priority should be fixing the bullpen.”
I believe that was also the #1 priority this year–and for a variety of reasons, it didn’ get done. Hopefully he’ll have better luck next year, but I for one am not optmistic about that. Reliable relieivers seem much harder to come by than they used to, and most GMs are going to hold on to the ones that are obviously good–or outbid the Braves for those few that are on the move.
it doesnt matter if chipper sucks beyond belief at first base this year because this year is a lost cause. Better to let him learn it now and cost us some more games this season, than not have learned it adequately by the beginning of next year.
and Dans, that is a fantastic idea, i love it.
Chipper maked too much money to be traded.
Chipper maked too much money to be traded.
Chipper maked too much money to be traded.
Chipper maked too much money to be traded.
Chipper maked too much money to be traded.
Chipper maked too much money to be traded.
Chipper maked too much money to be traded.
This is the guy who redid his contract so we could make the team better. There should be a statue out side Turner Field, right now, for Chipper Jones. He has never been great with the glove. He is playing hurt. Hell, David Justice would go on the DL for sneezing too hard.
I think we thoguth Boyer would be healthy and Devine could contribute this year. We also thought we could trade a starter for more pen help. We thought Villareal would be better. Those things didn’t happen. Would we be better? Probably. Our pen can’t get mcuh worse!
That should be “Makes” not “Maked”
Actually, Smitty, the real reason why Chipper will not be traded is because HE CAN VETO ANY TRADE AS A 10-5 PLAYER. I am 100% sure Chipper will not leave Atlanta by his own choice.
OK, about Neyer
He may be a nice guy and all, but just like ESPN pundants Harold Reynolds, etc., I get TIRED OF THE WHOLE DAMN STREAK ENDING TALK….every year he picks against the Braves, gives semi-valid reasons for it, while others are just plain stupid.
He has given credit to Cox and Co. for the turnaround each season, but his articles on this are few and far between and even when he does he puts in shots against Atlanta. I will try and effort to find some of these articles, if work will allow, to prove my point.
He has many more articles on the faults and reasons why the Braves will lose this year or whatever. Hey Rob, say this just once for us would you?? Rob Neyer: (wishful thinking) “hey, Braves did a great job last year, Bobby knows what he’s doing, Andruw is a stud and you know, the Braves are a team that will be there at the end. They have some holes, but what team doesn’t?? This is a good team, and can compete.”
Say that, not, “oh the Mets will….blah blah blah,” or “oh oh, the Phillies just got Thome and blah blah blah…they’ll do great this year, Mets will finish second, I like the Marlins with Dontrelle etc. to finish third with the Braves fourth, just b/c of Cox, and…..”
THAT’S WHY A LOT OF BRAVES FANS DON’T LIKE HIM. I don’t read his trash, I don’t care too, I’m sick of people bashing my team, so skrew them! People who continually talk like this lose a fan base quick. And he has said on talk radio with Dan Patrick that he knows Braves fans aren’t exactly on his side….I wonder why??
If he cares to write a decent, NOT STRONGLY AGAINST THE BRAVES article, then yes I would read it. But there is a better chance our Bullpen (excluding Ray and McBride) gets cleaned out with Rivera, Nathan, and Wagner added than me reading his dribble.
Things in baseball that need to go away:
1. Joe Morgan
2. Mets and their fans
3. Rob Neyer
Just to be fair…for the past few seasons there have been plenty of reasons to pick against the Braves. We haven’t had a dominant team for years now.
What moves have the Braves made in offseasons the past few years (maybe the Hudson trade) that would get a non Braves fan to say “Oh they are gonna run away with that division, I guarantee it.” Not many!!! We have been letting good players walk every offseason for 5 year now. I have no problem with journalists who pick against the Braves as long as they have valid reason. Frankly there haven’t been enough valid reasons to pick for the Braves lately. As a fan I always feel like we have a chance, but our fight has been an uphill fight for a while now.
Johnny, would put McCarver and FOX sports above Neyer
Thank you Johnny W., I couldnt have put it better myself…..
my biggest complaint about Neyer is unabashed bobo-honking they give the Yankmees and Mets…..
SOme people on the AJC blog said the would rather have David Justice over Chipper Jones.
People wonder why Braves fans are stupid.
I think they said last night that our bullpen has 15 blown saves (or is it 16 now?). That’s the problem. The hitting’s not been great and the starters could definitely improve, but if we had pulled out 10-12 of those 15
You have to understand, though, that the blown save stat generally isn’t a good one, because it also applies to relievers in the 7th and 8th innings.
Now, that’s not to say we haven’t been excruciatingly painful to watch, but th Yankees, for instance – they of Mariano Rivera and a 40-30 record – have 11 blown saves. The Mets have 10. Texas leads MLB with 18, but they’re in second place.
Our conversion rate has been rotten. But even if we had the exact same conversion rate as the Mets, we’d only have 4 fewer blown saves. Not exactly world shattering. And don’t forget that not every blown save is a loss. Some merely lead to a tie that is later won by the home team, and I’m sure we had one or two of those prior to this month
Which is not to say a good bullpen couldn’t have made the difference – Boston’s ungodly 83% conversion rate would give us 10 fewer blown saves, which would likey be at least 8 more wins, for a record of 38-35 – still 7.5 games out of first. But that’s comparing with the very best bullpen in MLB. That’s pretty close to the best Atlanta mark in the last 5 years, 2002, when we had an 80% conversion rate.
Every blown save is a game in which the team led and the bullpen let get away. Not to mention the pressure it puts on the starters to try to pitch longer than they should. This is one of the worst bullpens in major league history. It’s not that the Braves would be a great team if it wasn’t for the bullpen, but they wouldn’t have lost ten in a row and they wouldn’t be in last place, and they’d probably be at least .500.
All of these comments add up to the fact that even with a great bullpen (thanks Colin), the Braves would still be a pretty mediocre team. Their hitting is mediocre, their defense is mediocre, and their starting pitching is mediocre. When you add a terrible bullpen to the mix, mediocre becomes bad. When you add a great bullpen, mediocre either remains mediocre (see the Angles) or becomes decent. You get the point.
I agree wholeheartedly with those who think it’s time to look to the future. Adding an arm to the rotation or the pen, unless it is a young arm under contract for a little while, is like putting a band-aid on a gunshot wound. JS, at this point, needs to be cautious and smart. There is some talent in the minors but the Braves are definitely in need of revitalizing their pitching talent. Even if Davies and James both pan out, Smoltz is almost done and Hampton may never be effective again.
My question, I guess, for those who are so worked up over Neyer: who cares? He’s a sportswriter, and they get paid to make such predictions – not to be right, but to garner interest. And anyway, the Braves are now 30-43, in last place in a weak division, and have lost 10 in a row. Why are folks so upset over Neyer? Because the Braves suck? Let it go and let’s talk about the Braves.
You want to see some really insane numbers involving Boston, check out their offense against NL pitching. They hit .406 against the Nats, and not one of their hitters besides Crisp is hitting below .320 against the NL. Even the pitchers are hitting .313. Team OPS? .943. I really wonder if the NL should just use the DH. Interleague play becomes ridiculous when you start seeing numbers like that. Not to mention that they also ran a simulation wherein they put AL teams as currently composed into the NL and ran a season. The result? The AL team that gets 85 wins in the AL will get 95 wins in the NL. That’s a 10-game difference. That’s huge. How bad would we be right now if we were in the AL (don’t answer that!)?
I’m almost curious enough to let this skid continue and see what the FO does. Fire sale? Nothing? Toothpaste spackle to try to disguise the holes? I think this has to be a worse collapse than the 2005 Orioles. It’s gotten to the point where I just laugh my way through games in disbelief.
Surely, the pen is the problem despite the fact that a blown save is a bad stat.
The failures of the pen which have been a weak spot since the beginning of the season seem to have infected the performance of the entire team. We got away with stretching HoRam to 126 pitches last night, but we shouldn’t have to try. And if every time you rally for a lead or a tie the pen gives the runs right back in the next half inning, you might see some malaise at the plate.
I do have to agree that Smoltz and Huddy have not been very “ace-like” giving up 4 or 5 runs over 7 innings is okay at the back of your rotation, but not for your number 1 and 2 guys. Every once in a while you need a 1 or 2-run gem from them.
If we were in the AL, Betemit might get to play
Ugh, don’t say things like “the NL should use the DH.” Makes for far less interesting games, IMO. The double-switches/pinch-hitting aspect of managing is a large part of what NL managing fun to watch … or in our case, often very frustrating to watch 🙂
Rob Neyer is cynical in nature, in his ESPN chats, his columns, and sometimes (though not as often) in his ESPNews appearances.
It’s perfectly fine to be upset when your team is criticized by those folks, but why suggest that those guys are picking on the Braves? Guess what……the team isn’t good right now. It isn’t Neyer’s (or anyone else’s) job to make Braves fans feel warm and fuzzy about their players. They get paid to analyze teams, players and coaches in print and on television/radio.
Why take it personally when he picks the Mets to finally win the division? One, there was no reason to pick Atlanta when we countered their Delgado, Wagner, Franco and LoDuca with Villareal, Cormier, Jordan and Pratt. Two, he’s RIGHT, which isn’t a bad thing to be as a sportswriter these days.
JoshQ,
I agree man, the Braves haven’t added many parts and we can all sort’ve see a slow deteioration the past few years. BUT THAT’S NO EXCUSE for his continued bashing. I’M SICK OF IT, I’M TIRED OF PEOPLE BASHING MY TEAM!
I hear enough crap from ESPN with regards to baseball tonight, I mean I love watching that show, I have respect for Peter Gammons, Timmy K., and Jayson Stark. If any person should bash the Braves, it’d be Stark who covers the Phillies, but you know what, HE DOESN’T AND HE CONTINUALLY, ON AIR, IN PRINT, GIVES RESPECT TO BOBBY, JS, AND THE BRAVES PLAYERS.
He (Stark) says they (Braves) have holes, again, we all know this, but he does it in a way that doesn’t make it seem like were in the same class as the Royals (ok, so maybe this season we are, but you all know what I mean)
Honestly JoshQ, I’m sure he is a nice guy and a decent person. I don’t hate Rob N., but I detest his continual bashing of Atlanta. We all, every single one of us on this site, Mac included, have heard the “Buffalo Bills of baseball” or the “team that can’t finish it off” or the “this is the year the streak ends.” I’M SICK OF IT AND PEOPLE WHO CONTINUE THIS CRAP, LIKE NEYER, PISS ME OFF!
When the Mets got Mo Vaughn and a few other big names we were told the streak ended……When the Marlins had Sheff, Leiter, Kevin Brown, etc., we were told the streak would end……When the Phillies added Thome, David Bell, etc., we were told the streak ended…..ALL BY NEYER….as well as others, granted, BUT NOT ONCE DID THIS @SS CLOWN GIVE US RESPECT AND SAY THAT MAYBE, JUST MAYBE WE, THE DEFENDING CHAMPIONS COULD ACTUALLY, GET THIS, WIN!!!
So let’m talk…let’m tell you about how great the Mets are, they are good, Wright and Reyes are all-stars, Delgado is having a typical Delgado year and Pedro is Pedro…great team, and Randolph is doing a heck of a job managing….the Phillies aren’t bad either…..
The mets should win the division, congrats to thier fans and the players and to Omar Minaya for putting that team together as well as their farm system members, a couple of which I know personally from working with the Devil Rays, and all the people behind the scenes.
see, that’s called respect, something Mr. Neyer knows little about, or at least shows little of in his columns.
Rob Neyer’s comments on the Braves don’t bother me at all, after listening to Chad Ford talk about the Hawks for years. You want double standards, there you go.
Smitty,
Yeah, McCarver is just above, I agree……so, re-done list
1. Joe Morgan
2. Mets, and their fans
3. McCarver
4. Neyer
I advocate the cautious approach that JS is taking. This season is likely lost. If you start trading the future now for bullpen help, you probably don’t do enough to salvage the season and you probably damage your chances next season.
I also do not think, nor do I think that JS believes that this team is as bad as the June record indicates. Guys are way off their career averages and injuries may have put us behind the 8-ball. There is no need to begin a fire-sale under those conditions. We may be able to contend next year with a few adjustments. If things continue to deteriorate then maybe we trade some veterans nearer the trade dealine. We may have a better idea of what positions we can fill from within for 2007 by then.
In the interim, we have to try to fix this team from within. It is probably the best approach to the long term success of the franchise.
I’m done with Neyer talk….sorry for the long rants, but he just pisses me off that’s all. I apologize to all for that. I think in the long run, I should just say, I don’t care for Neyer….that’s that…..
Job Posting
Wanted: Relief Pitcher
Qualifications: Be able to chuck a baseball 60’6″
Time: WAY PAST FULL-TIME
Co-workers: Stay away from Judy, Olivia, Charla, and Michelle
aka. (Chris, Oscar, Chad, and Mike)
anyone else care to add anything??
Johnny W., please update the Qualifications there should be two
1. Throw a baseball from the mound to home plate
2. Must be able to throw the ball over the plate
Tryouts begin today! You walk someone and you’re fired, good luck too all!
csg,
Job Posting
Wanted: Relief Pitcher
Qualifications:
1. Throw a baseball from the mound to home plate
2. Must be able to throw the ball over the plate
Time: WAY PAST FULL-TIME
Co-workers: Stay away from Judy, Olivia, Charla, and Michelle
aka. (Chris, Oscar, Chad, and Mike)
Tryouts begin today! You walk someone and you’re fired, good luck too all!
Anyone else?
I wish smoltz would be our closer next year! Best case scenario he helps the team win 25-30 games as a starter -as closer he double that! He’s already signed, proven that he’s more than able, will let him extend his career. I went to at least a dozen games when he came in to close WOW WHAT AN ELECTRIC ATMOSPHERE, how can he not miss that. Even though he has said that he’s not going to close anymore maybe this year he will change his mind
First, this year is lost for the purposes of winning the World Series or even maintaining our NL East streak.
Second, attempting to hold it together for one more run at it next year is folly because if it doesn’t work out, we’re in an even worse position to rebuild than we are this year. It’s better to sell a year too early than a year too late. It’s even worse to sell two years too late.
It’s time we went “Marlins” on the league and tried to get the best prospects and young players that we can for our current assets. The only untouchable should be Brian McCann and maybe Andruw (and that includes Salty because we already have an All-Star caliber catcher and Salty has more value to other teams as a catcher than to us at 1B–but he could net us a couple of big-time prospects at other positions).
Not everyone needs to be moved by the trading deadline, but certainly by the end of spring training next year we should turn the roster over and begin anew.
I love Smoltz. He’s been my favorite pitcher for the better part of two decades, but he can’t save us alone. Send him somewhere he can finish his career chasing a championship and improve our own future for it. What’s the big deal with finishing your career somewhere? So what? We know Smoltz is our guy, no matter where he is (just like Glavine and Maddux). I’d be thrilled if any of them (or all three) came back to join the organization after their playing days are over.
It’s just time to realize that this chapter has closed and I’m excited to see the new chapter begin.
Look at the Marlins! Whenever you get dog tired of watching our guys lose in every way imaginable, look at how great it is to see a young team grow into a unit capable of playing baseball at a championship level. We can have that again! We just need to realize it.
Turn the page.
trade Giles for Blanton and a prospect, trade thomson for a cheaper quality starter. Keep Sosa as a long reliever. Smoltz to closer next year (wont happen, but I can wish)
Hudson, Hampton, Blanton, Davies, James or another
Boyer, Foster, McBride, Sosa, Smoltz, James if not starting, and another
Chipper 1B
Renteria or Prado 2B
Renteria or Pena SS
Betemit 3B
Seems like our best option, but it would take a miracle.
brace yourselves I think Russ Ortiz becomes available today or tomorrow. Alfonseca is also available. I would actually take Alfonseca over Remlinger or Reitsma.
Alfonseca over Remlinger………that’s how sad its gotten folks…..were actually, possibly thinking about this…that and Solomon Torres as a “solution” or “fix” for our bullpen……ITS GOTTEN THAT BAD!!!
Junior Pena should never be a big league starter.
Torres will be another great addition to our bullpen!
47IP 58H 24ER .302BAA
If WE TRADE FOR THIS CRAP, I dont know what I’m capable of doing
So would I, and given Schuerholz’s demonstrated sweet tooth for old ex-Braves (why else would Mary Remlinger be here?), I expect the Braves to pick up Alfonseca and/or Ortiz this weekend.
As for CSG, you left out the outfield. The most likely configuartion is Langy/ AJones/ Francoeur, but it could easily be Thorman or Diaz in left or Langerhans in center (if Andruw is traded). I still favor trading Frenchy, but I know that’s highly unlikely.
Prado is preferable to Pena, who should never get more than (1995-98) Rafael Belliard’s PT.
From BP, discussing the minor league system:
“With Thorman up in the big leagues, is the Triple-A lineup now historically bad? No current starter has an OPS over .713.”
The Braves need to schedule an exhibition between the Richmond lineup and the Atlanta bullpen. Whoever did better would have their first success all season.
I am getting so tired of being negative all the time.
I’m glad I live in Minnesota so I have at least one baseball team to enjoy watching.
From now on I am going to make a concerted effort to try to be LESS negative when posting.
Lando, I give your pledge about 3 innings.
I think out of Diaz, Langy, and Thorman. One or two of these will be traded. Keep in mind KJ will be back, or maybe he can play 2nd again w/ Betemit at 3rd and Chip at 1st. I dont know if KJ’s arm will be strong enough, but he can certainly play 2nd and give us a boost on offense. I hadn’t thought about that!
I change what I said earlier.
1B – Chip
2B – KJ
SS – Renteria
3b – Giles
LF – Langy/Diaz/Thorman (2 of the 3)
CF – Druw
RF – Frenchy
I don’t think we will go for Ortiz, he walked too many and I don’t think Bobby is a HUGE fan. He might like him, but not like he loves Remlinger
We better not trade Thor, we haven’t even given him a chance to show his potential yet. We could be tradinga an allstar. Thor’s ma boy, adopted son.
Thhhhhhhhhhhhhhooooooooooooooooooooooooooorrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr
Brian, I’ll take that bet.
I think Thorman can put up very good #’s w/ low K’s. I like his approach and he will show good power. I haven’t had much chance to wacth him play recently, but how does he look in LF.
too many L’s
http://atlanta.braves.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/schedule/index.jsp?c_id=atl
Smoltz it starts w/ you
Oritz signed with Baltimore. Thankfully.
I’m glad I live in Minnesota
*passes out*
I go to school up there, and while I love my school, there are few states I would rather it not be in. I HATE the weather. It is teh suck.
Maybe, it’s Mazzone that loves Ortiz, then.
Jeremy where did you see that?
Yeah, I’m wondering, too. Link? Radio?
Don’t read the comments on the AJC board. Those people are idiots!
My mistake. I saw it mentioned on another board. He’s not signed yet. It’s just a snippet that Baltimore has an interest.
Here’s the link, btw.
I just realized there are only four runs seperating us and a 20 game losing streak this month. But in my efforts to not be negative… at least we have those four runs!
or 14 runs keeping us from having a 9 game winning streak
or Mike Remlinger and Chad Paronto from us having a 1 game winning streak
csg, Are you putting Betemit on the bench in your scenario? That guy has got to start so we can see what he’s capable of in an everyday role. I’d put him at 3rd. As for KJ at second, I’d assume that scenario can only be considered if KJ is completely healthy.
KJ at second is awesome……that dude needs at-bats just as much as Betemit.
You think you’ve got problems….nothing compared to the Phillies at the moment…
http://www.boston.com/news/globe/city_region/breaking_news/2006/06/phillies_pitche.html
I’m sorry I dont know what the crap I was thinking. I wouldn’t ever have Giles at 3rd, yes BETA-MEAT at 3B. I wrote that in the paragraph and dont know what happened after that
Brian J-not only does no one in Richmond have an OPS above .713, they start a player on track for 400 AB’s with an OPS below .400. Is there any precedent for giving a 26 year old in AAA who is hitting .150 (!) with no power that many AB’s?
Does anyone wonder where the press is on that one?
BNW,
I think we should have some pitchers arrested.
Paranto should be arrested for the heat attack he is going to give Bobby Cox
can anyone find out what our record is when Bobby gets ejected from games. Maybe he should get thrown out in the 1st tonight and we can win a game!
At the very least, Bobby would give us something fun to watch.
The “wheels have been getting ready to come off the bus” for the Braves for a couple seasons now, but in past years something has happened to extended the division title streak on…added the fact that the other teams in the division haven’t lived up to hype or potential, either.
Take last year: The Braves got INCREDIBLE HELP FROM MULTIPLE ROOKIES, something that rarely happens. Pitchers didn’t have enough on them yet to make adjustments and when they made mistakes, the rookies capiatlized on them (ie Francoeur’s above .300 average and overall ridiculous start.) Most teams can only DREAM of getting the type of production from rookies that ATL got in ’05, the type that comes around no more than at least once per decade.
Also, Andruw Jones (who started slow) when on a RIDICULOUS tear, one that you can’t count on probably more than once in a career. Remember too, the bullpen was BAD last year, although not as a bad as this years. Beyond the Late May-early July (i think it was) streak that Reitsma went on…the bullpen was very suspect all year, that is until Farnsworth (who isn’t doing well in NY) came along at the TD. Oh, and Jorge Sosa had a phenomenal year as a starter.
Unless JS is allowed to spend more money, it will be hard to fix the abundance of problems that exsist today in ATL. However, trading Smoltz, Chipper, or Hudson won’t really fix the problem. And if you’re gonna trade Andruw, it’s gotta be done THIS season, otherwise he’ll be a 10-5 next year and can veto any trade, and then sign somewhere else in the offseason of ’07. His trade value would have to be high, but the Braves would need to get a substantial return value on him (i.e. Torri Hunter, relief pitcher, and prospect(s),)
The bullpen could be better next season IF, IF Joey Devine and Blaine Boyer return healthy and Devine, primarily, lives up to his potential or billing. However, the Paronto’s, Remlinger’s, Villarreals, and even Ken Ray’s of the world need to be gone. If the Braves want to play at a CHAMPIONSHIP LEVEL, then they don’t need journeymen, AA, or washed-up relievers in the pen. Of course you can’t have 6 Mariano Riveras, but 2 or 3 that you can count on are a MUST. With that being said, more blame shoud be placed on the starters, too…who haven’t been a model of consisency this year, either…same goes for the defense, and taking what youre given, offensively.
Finally, in closing, I’ll pretend to be JS and here’s what I’d do to help make the Braves CHAMPIONSHIP-caliber contenders in ’07, not just wild-card or division title contenders.
Trade Andruw while is value is still high, we already have a free-swinging outfielder (Francoeur), who hits for low average, but has great power, and hasn’t even begun to reach his prime (age 22). Andruw has gotten older, fatter, and apparently still doesn’t have the discipline to make necessary adjustments at the plate. Francouer still has PLENTY of time to get better (and I really think he will), keep in mind, in a ideal world, he’d be in AAA Richmond right now, or would just have been called up. His power won’t go anywhere, but, while he’ll never hit .300 or have a .365 OBP, his numbers will surely rise, as he develops patience…i saw he’ll be a consistent .265-.275 hitter, with an OBP at a minimum of .330.
Then you trade John Thomson to a contender to get something for him.
Giles is also a possibility to trade given that Betemit can play second or platoon with others (Prado, Pena, Escobar in the future). The difference in contracts could allow for added spending in the bullpen.
Oh, I want Chipper to stay in ATL, but I’d like to see him possibly playing 1b in 2007.
I could go on and on, but the amount of possible scenarios are endless and a moot point…JS, should not as some people suggest “fire sell,” but its obvious that some slight adjustments need to be made for the Braves to contend for the division title in ’06, must less a real championship (penant or world series). (1) fix bullpen, (2) lead off hitter (3) big-time OF, 1B or 3B to either replace or go along with A. Jones) (4) hope that Hampton recovers and more consistent starting pitcher (5) etc. (6) etc.
Also, I don’t package Saltalamachhia unless I can get an all-star caliber outfielder, solid relief pitcher, and legitmate prospect(s) in return.
JMHO
The source of our plague:
http://www.thesuperficial.com/2006/06/22/kevin_federline_gets_his_chari.html
So that’s where all this horrible luck has been coming from……….although…………how good is K-Fed’s fastball??? can he give us an inning or two??
Just read this:
News: Carlos Almanzar (shoulder) has pitched two innings for Double-A Mississippi in the past week.
Impact: Almanzar, who underwent Tommy John surgery last season, is still at least a month away from providing help to the Braves’ bullpen.
good stats for Carlos in 2004
72.2IP 66H 30ER 8HR 19BB 44SO 3.72ERA
what a piece of crap!
http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/story/5723716
maybe we can get him to smack around Paranto and the group next time we play them!
The article I linked with ( comment #86) is the eyewitness account to the incident. It’s even worse than the foxports article.
sorry Brave, didn’t notice your post
Not sure if someone mentioned this already, but not only did Marcus not make contact, he didn’t swing at the hit and run pitch.
All of these comments add up to the fact that even with a great bullpen (thanks Colin), the Braves would still be a pretty mediocre team. Their hitting is mediocre, their defense is mediocre
I suspect “mediocre” is charitable here. I think the defense is perhaps worse than mediocre. Our infield defense is ugly, and I think that’s a lot of what the problem is this year
Surely, the pen is the problem despite the fact that a blown save is a bad stat.
I’m not saying the bullpen isn’t _a_ problem, but it isn’t _the_ problem. we have too many. Our starting pitching is weak – our two nominal aces, Hudson and Smoltz, have ERAs up near 4, and the others were time bombs coming in. Our offense has some good hitters (though only one great one, McCann), but it has a raving outmaking machine in right field , a good half of a platoon and a crap one at 1B, and one mediocrity along with half a good platoon in LF. Throw in the utter crash and burn of Giles and this is not a championship offense.
No, it’s not a championship offense. But previous braves teams have shown that it would be sufficient with great pitching. You’re right to put blame on the starters as well as the bullpen. Not only do our two aces have non-ace ERA’s, but overall our starters aren’t eating enough innings. Overusing a bullpen can make even a good staff bad, in our case it makes a bad staff horrible.