ESPN.com – MLB – Box Score – Braves at Phillies
That sucked. The Braves came back from 3-0 down to take a 4-3 lead, and Mike Remlinger was totally ineffective in the eighth, allowing a two-run homer to Aaron Freaking Rowand to lose the game.
Smoltz gave up three runs in the third, but really wasn’t hit hard — four singles, one on the infield, and a HBP. Just one of those things, and John was generally really effective — five strikeouts, no walks, and just three other hits.
The Braves got a run on a bases-loaded Smoltz GIDP in the fifth. Andruw tied it in the sixth with a homer with Chipper aboard, and Francoeur (after LaRoche was foolishly intentionally walked with two out) drove in Chipper in the eighth. But Langerhans grounded out with the bases loaded, and after Remlinger’s problems the Braves went down in the ninth on nine pitches.
Renteria kept his hit streak going with an infield single in the sixth. Andruw was the only Brave with two hits. Cormier, as you probably know, was put on the DL today and replaced by Moylan… Thomson versus Lidle tomorrow, on paper a pretty good matchup for the Braves, but you know what they say about that.
Lidle handled the Braves pretty well the last time he pitched in Atlanta.
Mac, you are surprisingly calm. I have to learn this from you.
We need to win tomorrow. For the momentum going into Shea and to get at least a tie for second place back.
(Go Pirates)
If it wasn’t a Wednesday (so I actually watched the end of the game in the background while most of my attention was on Lost) I might be more upset.
agreed Dan…
Mets/Bucs going to the 11th. Bradford in for the Mets.
Tough pill to swallow tonight. Gotta get my mind off it.
Who wants to talk hockey? How ’bout them Ducks! 😉
I’m more curious about Billy Wagner. He saved 38 of 41 last year, and he has already blown three this year.
Man I would love to see that huge purchase blow up in the Mets’ faces.
As much as I’d like to blame Cox, and I really would like to, I can’t tonight. Giving him Remlinger to use is like setting candy in front of a little kid and then getting mad when he takes it. There are certain predispositions that are just innate…and Cox using Remlinger is one of them. I am exiting the Cox-bashing-bandwagon and climbing aboard (or perhaps starting) the Shuerholz bashing one. Tonight is the result of him sitting on his ass all winter and doing nothing to improve a GLARING deficiency in the team. That’s his JOB and he BLEW it this time.
Before someone says something smart, I meant ‘Schuerholz’. Sorry…
Cormier and Villarreal (spelled right?) haven’t been bad, but we need a real reliable Lidge/Ryan/Turnbow/Rivera type. Schuerholz said he really expected Farnsworth back with a three year and 15 million offer to be our closer, but Farnsworth decided he’d rather take three years and 18 million to be a set-up man with the Yankees.
I’ll be in left center, row 2.
Hit me a homer Andruw…or anyone with an A on his hat for that matter…
You are so correct brad. Lockhart had to be off the team completely before Marcus was given a proper chance to prove himself. Otherwise, we may still see Lockhart starting at second base right now.
Hey, the braves cut Quilvio Veras to give Giles the full time job….
Dan, I don’t even think that $3M difference was the real issue. I think the whole Farnsworth thing was just weird.
I don’t blame him for letting Farnsworth walk–he tried, and isn’t the first GM to lose an overrated player to the Yankee$. The problem was he didn’t step back and say, “ok, farnsworth is gone. Kolb is gone. I just saved a couple million dollars…let’s retool this thing.” He *hoped* blaine boyer, devine, mcbride, and reitsma would be better than last year and his big FA signing was Mike Remlinger. All of that could be accomplished in an afternoon by the pool with 2 phone calls. He dropped the ball this offseason and we’re seeing the effects now.
Well, it’s easy to say that we should go out and get relief help, but the question is from where and for what price? It’s not like there are many teams that just have an abundance of great relievers. It’s pretty silly, in my opinion, to criticize Schuerholz for “sitting on his ass” and not getting bullpen help without addressing where he could have done it and for what. It’s especially silly given the fact that our pen hasn’t really been that bad this year, contrary to assumptions. If I calculated right, our pen ERA was only about 3.89 coming into tonight’s ballgame. That’s respectable. We’ve not been losing because of our pen for the most part, we’ve been losing because we couldn’t get our hitting and starting pitching on track at the same time until recently.
Mike, I just did a little bit of research again…Veras left the team after the 2001 season. Marcus played 68 games in Atlanta in 2002 while Lockhart played more than 100 games.
Is 2002 the season when Marcus had a lot of problems with injuries and family?
Agree to some extent, Maxwn, but come on…there had to be *something* he could have done short of crossing his fingers and *hoping* guys work out. That’s not a plan, that’s a dream situation, and it’s not fair to the regular guys who battle every night to see late-game leads disintergrate at the hands of Remlinger and Reitsma.
Bad News: Delgado walk-off HR in the 12th.
Well, I recall Veras being cut to allow Giles to start everyday. They said Veras was a bad influence on him…and he pretty much sucked.
I don’t remember exactly what the deal was in ’02, but I think youre on the right track with why Lockhart saw alot of the work.
JS did get Cormier and Villareal from the Estrada trade, and he asked for Torres in the Thomson trade. So he knows the bullpen is a problem all along. It’s quite hard to sign relievers during the past offseason when the Cubs are handing out 3/12M contracts to Demspter, Eyre, and Howry…then he got outbid in Todd Jones and Hoffman (who didn’t want to leave all along). I still don’t quite understand what happened in the Farnsworth negotiation. I know Farnsworth was putting the blame on JS, but there seems to be something more than that I think…
The pen’s ERA doesn’t look too bad…but it’s still 11th in the NL (with the Mets sitting well in 1st). The underlying peripherals are very troubling, though – 15th in K/9, 15th in K/BB. There’s no one that can come in, strike out three, and sit down except maybe Ray – but he’s wild and a career minor leaguer. The Braves thought they’d get more out of Boyer and Devine, but there wasn’t much of a backup plan in place. In the past, the Braves have been pretty good at putting together a decent bullpen out of spare parts. But with Mazzone gone, perhaps it was time to try and solidify the pen with some bigger names.
I think Wright just homered to win in the 12th
Delgado is really the only Met I am scared of. That guy doesn’t play like a Met.
My apologies, Delgado homered of course.
Sure there was something he could have done. He could have traded away a valuable position player or some prospects to acquire an overrated closer like, hey, Dan Kolb last year. Or he could have thrown wads of cash at a B.J Ryan type. Or he could do what he actually did and that is trade for some live arms from Arizona, pick up Remlinger, get Ken Ray, sign this Moylan character and give Joey Devine a shot in the big club. Not of all of that worked out, but it’s a far cry from “crossing his fingers and hoping guys worked out.” You claim that there is some better solution out there, but I don’t really see that there had to have been. I mean, Billy Wagner has blown three games already. Should we have tried to sign him for loads of cash?
Wagner is playing like a Met, which makes me happy.
It was Delgado.
And yet again we’re back to 6.0 games back and I had to listen to ESPN surmise the Mets are going to be world champs as they sing their praises. Makes me sick.
Here’s a small sample of relief pitchers that were free agents that signed last offseason. Think maybe some of these guys could help?
Farnsworth
Tom Gordon (now 9-9 in saves)
Danys Baez
Octavio Dotel
Danny Graves
Eddie Guardado
LaTroy Hawkins
Trevor Hoffman
Todd Jones
Jeff Nelson
Ugueth Urbina
Billy Wagner
Please don’t tell me there weren’t guys available.
Brad
“[Cormier] tore a muscle in there,” Cox said. “It’s going to be a couple of weeks.”
My point is that our pen is certainly not really a strength this year, but putting together a strong bullpen is not really as easy many seem to believe. There just aren’t that many consistently good middle relievers out there. Sometimes you just have to see what you can make out what you can get. It’s not really pretty, but if the rotation is stronger and your offensive production is decent, it shouldn’t kill you.
where is Urbina now? I think the best one of those might have been Gordon. He seems that he knows how to pitch and w/ Wagner you might as well just look for the fastball.
Or he could do what he actually did and that is trade for some live arms from Arizona, pick up Remlinger, get Ken Ray, sign this Moylan character and give Joey Devine a shot in the big club. Not of all of that worked out, but it’s a far cry from “crossing his fingers and hoping guys worked out.”
–sorry dude, I don’t see the difference.
Maxwn,
You are correct, sir.
It’s just painful to admit that these types of games are going to happen, and we’re 1-3 vs. Philly as a result.
Perhaps Bobby is re-thinking the situation right now…
It’s not like Billy Wagner and BJ Ryan were the only relievers available.
Right now, in the Braves’ pen, there’s a 40-year old who was headed for retirement, a reliever who has barely pitched for two years, another with a 5.11 ERA in 2005, some guy from Australia who walks a batter or two an inning, a 31 year old minor league journeyman, a kid who can only get out lefties, a closer best suited to the 6th/7th inning, and Chuck James. That doesn’t seem a bit…weird?
And to top it all off, they just signed Tyler Yates. Tyler Yates.
Is Urbina still in jail?
“It’s not really pretty, but if the rotation is stronger and your offensive production is decent, it shouldn’t kill you”
See, here’s where we disagree, b/c we have a good rotation and decent offense, and our ‘pen consistenly kills us. Like tonight–decent offense, decent starting, but terrible pen. The Kolb disaster last year…the reitsma disaster this year. I will say the pen can easily kill a team, and it’s exacerbated when guys battle all night to come back, keep it close, etc.
Ugie Urbina? Isn’t he in jail?
I looked it up and the last news update was from February 22, but they said he had to stay in prison until the trial and I don’t see anything about said trial having occurred, so I would assume that yes, he’s still in jail.
If you’re assuming he’ll be released some time this season in order to help us, you’ve discounted the possibility that he did actually set those people on fire…
There were about 100 names on the list I saw. I just named the guys people have heard of. But search for ‘2005 free agent relief pitchers’ and you’ll see–Remlinger, Villareal, and Moyan weren’t his only choices.
“It’s not really pretty, but if the rotation is stronger and your offensive production is decent, it shouldn’t kill you”
Maybe that’s enough to win a divisional title, but when has winning a divisional title become the main goal of the Braves? How on earth is this bullpen good enough to get the Braves to the world series?
“This guy here is dead!”
“Cross him off the list then!”
Of the list you made, Tom Gordon is 9-9 and is 38 years old with a three year contract! While Wagner has blown 3 and Guardado has blown 2 and may be hurting. Octavio Dotel won’t be back until the middle of the year and hasn’t pitched in almost a year. Urbina is still in a Venezuelan prison, I believe. Baez cost the Dodgers two of their pitching prospects. Hoffman wanted to stay in San Diego, Nelson is 38 and in the minor leagues. Graves and Hawkins are just bad. If I remember right we offered Todd Jones a contract and he didn’t take it. I might be wrong about that, but nonetheless. Oh, and Farnsworth passed on us too. So what should we have done?
Well, just because our bullpen isn’t good enough to get us to the World Series doesn’t mean there was an option out there that was good enough. It’s still only the 3rd of May. There’s still a possiblity that this group could solidify or that something will shake loose in the middle of the season and Schuerholz can work a good deal.
Like I said, I only mentioned names people might recognize. But the reasons you named for why those guys wouldn’t work don’t justify any potential benefit you’d get from Remlinger, et al. Who’s to say some of those guys who are struggling wouldn’t benefit from being on the Braves, in a divison race, packed stadiums, etc? No one knows. But we KNEW for sure that remlinger and reitsma sucked–that was certain.
Moylan worries me. In Richmond,
8IP 11H 7BB 9SO 7ER 7.64ERA
Is this the best that we have in reserves?
So basically your argument comes down to a complete hypothetical that our bullpen could have been better without really explaining how that might be other than we could have got some pitchers who might have done better than they are doing now for some unknown cost. And you criticize Scheurholz because he was just hoping that this group would come together. Ok, you win.
No, my argument is based on logic. When your choices are known quantities that suck vs. guys who are potentially good, that’s obvious. And he made the wrong choice. He could have signed 10 new FA relievers and they could have all flopped, but sometimes that happens, and THAT wouldn’t be his fault. Hoping that lightning strikes and the planets align perfectly and Remlinger pitches like 2002 and Reitsma magically learns to pitch, and Boyer/mcbride/etc stay healthy–too much of a gamble when you have an entire offseason. And available options. And the money.
Maxwn, I just want to know what you think. Do you think this group of relievers heading into this season will work out fine?
Schuerholz did pretty much completely overhaul our bullpen from last year. Reitsma is the only guy down there who threw more than 20 innings for us last year. So he basically did get an entirely new bullpen. What the hell is that you want him to do? You haven’t given a single actual possiblity that he could have pursued, only these hypotheticals such as signing 10 new FA relievers. Schuerholz tried to get a few new arms, and give a variety of our young guys a chance. It hasn’t really bombed as badly as you think, even though Blaine Boyer got hurt, Devine was a disaster and McBride is just now coming back. Remlinger has had about three bad outings and several others where he’s been effective. Reitsma been an adventure but he’s really only cost us one game. So instead of saying vague things like “Reitsma sucks, Remlinger sucks. We should have done something in the offseason.” Tell us what you would have done, specifically. Because at this point I think Schuerholz had a better grasp of what was possible this offseason than you, and I’ll continue to believe that until you come up with some realistic option that we could have done.
We aren’t losing because of our bullpen. Our offense and starting pitching have not been good at the same time and that is why we are 3 games under .500. Tonight sucked, but it’s no reason to start jumping all over Cox or Schuerholz.
Seems to me we’ve had bullpen problems for awhile. I know the 2002 (or was it ’01?) bullpen was awesome, but it hasn’t done too well since then (even with Mazzone). And remember, last year the bullpen in October looks exceedingly different from the bullpen in April. Hopefully JS can pull off another deal before the trading deadline like he did last year to solidify the bullpen.
kc, I don’t know. They could get better, they could continue to be a roller coaster. I just don’t see any reason to believe that we had many other options. That’s the way bullpens are. I’d rather go through this year with a mediocre bullpen than have mortgaged our future to get some overpriced guys this offseason who might not have been any better anyway. Way too many teams deal with this same crap to get too worried about it. Good middle relievers are just not in great supply because if you are good you aren’t going to be a middle reliever for the most part. And most closers are really just glorified middle relievers with the exception of maybe the 8 or 10 best guys.
I let Cox off the hook, first of all. I’m piling on Schuerholz b/c this is his creation. Second, I’ll outline what I would have done this past offseason, given his choices, budget constraints, etc. I’m not trying to convince you that I’m a better GM than JS; my point is that he had an entire offseason to fix things and his big move to scare the NL East was…Remlinger.
On to my plan. First, I give guys a few years to prove their worth. That being said, I immediately get rid of John Foster and Kolb. Gone. (I don’t know specifics of these contracts, so bear with me.) I would actually keep Reitsma, as he’s not the worst 7th inning option. I would IMMEDIATELY sign Billy Wagner. I know he’s struggled, but it sends a message to the rest of the east that we mean business. And it changes the course of the game knowing he’s got the 9th inning. I would probably have done the estrada for cormier/villareal deal, and then also signed Octavio Dotel and Jeff Nelson. That would give us Cormier, Villareal, Reitsma, Nelson, Dotel, Wagner. IF boyer and mcbride came back healthy, well, we’d have options. But I wouldn’t COUNT on them.
And I’d take my chances with the guys I just named. It might not work, but it’s an attempt.
To be fair, the market this off-season blew on many levels. There was pretty much nobody. The Estrada trade was solid. Getting rid of Kolb had to be done, even if it was for essentially nothing.
My specific issue is with Mike Remlinger. He was great with us in 2002. Last year? ERA+ of 65. That is a new level of suck. This is a guy that the 2005 Boston Red Sox, who had the worst bullpen in the AL, did not want. That tells you something right there. And when he was brought in, we had to know he’d be used before McBride, right, because he’s a “veteran presence” a la Brian Jordan? Bobby always goes with the veterans and lets them run themselves utterly into the ground before he makes a change. Moves like this just facilitate that flaw. Yes, I think it’s a flaw. It’s fine to be a player’s manager. But sometimes being proactive is what’s needed.
Agree Jenny. But Bobby’s Bobby–he’s managed this way his whole (old) life. Getting Remlinger back was his personal christmas, with jordan as a bonus. Not his fault they’re on the team.
So let me just say I am not an expert like some of your other guys in here.But I got ask why in the world does Remlinger still have a job .He should have been released after the game.We take a lead.We ask him to make 3out and send has to top9 so we can score more runs and he give up a HR.Released Remlinger Now
Boy, I hate losing games like tonight…
Late-night listening Session:
The Secret Machines’ “Ten Silver Drops”
A decent American imitation of UK shoegazer pop, but not nearly as sonically interesting as My Bloody Valentine or catchy as, like, Ride or something. A couple tuneful nuggets (“Alone, Jealous and Stoned” wins points for title alone), but as with a lot of these genre bands the hooks don’t catch as much as they absorb.
But after a game like tonight, maybe I’m just not in the mood for this kind of stuff.
We didn’t offer Todd Jones anything.
The man was basically on his hands and knees begging to be a Braves, said he’d play here for a less, and we didn’t take him. He’s not the best closer/relief pitcher in the game, but he’d sure be helpful.
Jones said he left a message of JS’s machine and never got a response if I remember correctly, so he went back to his old team.
We missed out there.
And he’s from Atlanta.
Not my favorite guy, but he had a good season last year.
so, how was lost? i missed it
Ok, Brad. Your plan is different from John Schuerholz because you would immediately sign Billy Wagner, who would cost us at least $43 million dollars over the next four years (because that’s what the Mets paid for him) and who has actually blown more games this year than Reitsma (who makes about 5 times less) has. Then you would sign Octavio Dotel who hasn’t pitched in a year and isn’t expected to pitch until the middle of the summer and Jeff Nelson who has only thrown about 60 innings over the last two years and has already been cut by the Cardinals and is now pitching in the minors for the White Sox. So a really expensive closer, an injured gamble, and a pitcher who apparently isn’t good anymore to crack the bullpens of two different teams. Forgive me if I fail to see how that’s better than what we have now.
And Jenny, yes I agree with you that there wasn’t much reason to expect Remlinger to be good this year, but it cost us next to nothing to give it a whirl and he hasn’t really been that bad. On top of that, you all make it sound like Bobby’s using Remlinger as our workhorse, but he’s pitched less innings than everyone on the staff other than Devine, Boyer, Moylan, and Ramirez. He has been in the most games, but that indicates to me that Bobby is using him in a limited way. A few times he has come in to act as a sort of setup man, but mostly he’s just been used to get one or two guys. I don’t think he’s been a total disaster by any stretch.
I’m not sure that it’s true that we didn’t offer him anything. According to the one source I found from SI, it sounds like we only offered him a one-year deal. Considering the fact that he is 38 and has pretty much been the definition of journeyman, I can understand why Schuerholz wouldn’t want to give him a 12 million dollar two year contract like the Tigers did, but I suppose others may disagree. Either way, I don’t think it is really an obvious mistake on the Braves part. He probably would have improved our pen, but the price was pretty steep. And getting a guy who had just come off a 40 save season on a crappy team didn’t really work out for us last year.
And you know who really sucks and still nobody is talking about… Marcus Giles. He is totally lost in the leadoff spot. He is actually the weakest link in the lineup, he just doesn’t get on base. OUr problem is the leadoff spot! If we get the leadoff hitter on base, Renteria would be able to contribute even more to this team. The sad thing though, there is no alternative, but it isn’t Giles either. He simply stinks!
Marcus is not hitting for average or power, is the real problem. He has an OBP of .343, which is pretty much exactly average (although not great for a leadoff hitter, keeping in mind that Furcal was not exactly an on-base machine either, so we should be used to this). He also leads the team in walks. His BABIP is considerably down this year, which is out of his control. Tonight, he looked bad. He is not totally lost. That is an inaccurate statement. I have faith that he’ll rebound.
Maxwn, the amount of innings Remlinger pitched is irrelevant. Bobby uses Remlinger in the most critical situations (besides the ninth inning), which is bad enough for me.
Timo, we all know Marcus would be fine as long as he is healthy (he hasn’t been healthy much this season), that’s why nobody is really complaining about him. The actual weakest link in the lineup is LaRoche and Frenchy at this moment.
Maxwn, nice posts, I agree a hundert percent with what you’re saying. The bullpen is not the problem and Remlinger not quite as bad as his ERA. I just wonder why James is seeing so little playing time? Will he only be used in long-games where the Braves are hopelessly behind? But again, our pitching is already putting it together, starters and bullpen. I am so much more worried about Giles, LaRoche and Francoeur… not to forget Langy who has declined heavily those past two weeks.
kc, I don’t think that is true. Remlinger’s been in a few tight spots, but he’s not been the go to guy in critical situations by any stretch. Unless you’re telling me that there have only been 9 total critical innings other than the ninth because that’s how many he’s pitched. I think Remlinger’s usage, as seen by his IP vs games, indicates that Bobby is using him mostly as a limited use one or two out guy. Occasionally he’s pitched longer, like tonight. I don’t think that is really that big of a deal.
My personal opinion is that they are using James as the long man because they don’t want to convert him to a pure short reliever due to his potential as a starter. While some people, such as Johan Santana and Pedro Martinez, have started as relievers and then become excellent starters, they may feel like it would be better not to do that to James. Especially with the possibility that we will need him to fill a hole in our rotation sometime this year. That’s pure speculation so there could be a completely different reason for his usage this way.
Maxwn, Bobby uses Remlinger as the number one lefty from the bullpen who comes in from seventh to ninth innings to face mainly left-handed batters during the close games (you can check Remlinger’s game log)…pretty much a LOOGY (I forgot the actual term)…which is pretty damn important…but lefties are hitting .313 against Remlinger entering into today’s game…which is consistent with his career trend of reverse split…which is another example that Bobby doesn’t know his relievers well.
As I have mentioned before, Bobby will only use James in the middle innings in games when the Braves are behind, which is the same way he handled Cruz two years back. This role will be enough to get James 70-80 innings this season, and Bobby will consider whether to put James into the rotation next season or not.
Nonetheless, he’s still not being used all that much, he’s not been all that bad, and I’m not sure that there have been better options. I don’t want James to become a LOOGY because I think he has too high of a ceiling. McBride should probably take that role now, but I don’t blame Cox for sticking with Remlinger tonight because McBride just got back and Remlinger has mostly been ok, until tonight. My basic point is that the inclusion of Remlinger in our bullpen and his use for 9 innings is not reason to jump on Cox or Schuerholz. If it happens all year, ok then, but as of now they’re still sorting all the roles out.
kc, i agree. I think that’s what the plan is for James, except I think the possiblity is that he will be moved to the rotation this year if necessity arises.
I am pretty sure Remlinger will stick around this whole season unfortunately. As I said, I want Bobby to give more oppurtunities to McBride to prove himself. The sooner the better.
And KC, you’re right that Remlinger is not much of a LOOGY because of his goofy platoon splits, but in absence of a better lefty option, I don’t think it’s a terrible idea to use the one you’ve got. McBride is probably better suited for the role, but I can’t blame Bobby for not using McBride while he was hurt. And I can’t really blame him for not relying on him so soon after his return. Now would be the time to start looking into moving McBride into that role.
I have no problem with our pen, and once Devine and Boyer are up, I think it’ll be a strength. Sure, it sucks now, but two of our top guys aren’t there.
I also wanted to add that, while you can do what the Cubs did and sign a bunch of mediocre RP, it isn’t without cost. Aside from tying the Braves up financially for a while, when you sign other people’s FAs, you give up draft picks, and I’d just as soon not burn 1st and 2nd round draft picks on guys who are over 30 and will be gone in 3 years.
Finally, Cox will eventually dump Remlinger. Until McBride came back, his hands were pretty well tied as you don’t want James (your long man) to be your only left in the pen. Now that we have a true LOOGY, Cox will start using him and Remlinger will become expendible. Give it a month or two.
Yeah, Remlinger will probably stick around all year, but if he’s in the back half of the pen, I don’t he’s a bad option. There are much worse people to have as your second LOOGY. Second lefties as a group are pretty bad.
I doubt James will be moving to the rotation this year unless HoRam can’t make it back from his hammy injury…even that, knowing Bobby, Sosa will be kept in the rotation.
Oh, and Remlinger has been in some VERY crucial situations. He was the guy Cox called on to get out Delgado, Wright, and Beltran on Sunday I believe, and he did a great job. Unfortunately, he’s had two consecutive poor outings in the 8th, and while Cox may give him one more shot, I really don’t believe he’ll give him anything more than that.
mraver, I think all these problems are coming from the high expectation the Braves have in Boyer and Devine entering into this season. Especially Boyer, I am very sure Bobby had plan for him to be the eighth inning setup man coming into spring training.
I basically agree with you mrayer, except that Boyer is hurt and probably not coming back this year, and I don’t think Devine has done anything to deserve being called one of our top guys nor do I see any reason to expect him to contribute to the big club anytime soon this year. I would just like to see McBride succeed as our top lefty setup man, and Villareal or Ray step into the righty setup role. Then if Reitsma is just Reitsma, our pen will probably be comfortable average. And that’s acceptable if our rotation will stay strong and we can get our offense on a roll. The bullpen is a tertiary concern behind the lineup and rotation to me.
kc, I think you overexaggerate Bobby’s willingness to stick with subpar performance. I know he irritates us by sticking with guys longer than we, the fans, would like, but I really don’t think there’s any reason to believe that he would stick with Ramirez or Sosa all year unless they perform better than they have so far. If they approch mediocrity, he’ll probably stick with them, but if they suck like they have, I don’t think Bobby is just gonna stick with them without trying something, most likely James. I mean the man is loyal, but he’s not an idiot. He has won 15 division titles, and sometimes that has required trying new guys at new positions.
actually, overexaggerate is redundant, so scratch that.
Ok, I have scrolled through a LOT of these comments and yet I see the same things.
Yes, JS should have made an effort to get a Todd Jones who’s from Marietta and would have been a fit. We need a closer, an established closer like Jones or a Hoffman would have been great.
However, there are tons of young, stud arms out there we could have easily traded for!!!
I have been trumpeting all off season and now in season that we could have easily flipped a Kelly Johnson or some of our other stud farmhands for a pitcher like a Justin Duscherer or Brandon McCarthy.
And maybe Duscherer or McCarthy would demand too high a price. Those are examples. Examples of young, fantastic pitchers who are not being given a fair shot with their team or in a lesser role because said teams (White Sox and A’s) are so deep with young arms, they could easily trade guys like that for help in other areas.
So, we didn’t have to “spend the big dollars” to get a big closer like a Todd Jones or Hoffman. Or Wagner. We could have spent a few draft picks or single A kids and gotten a stud arm like Duscherer and given him the opportunity to be closer.
But that actually would require John Schuerholz, Bobby Cox and the rest of this organization to actually read a scouting report.
The last time I checked, the best closers are the guys who can throw heat and strike people out. Brad Lidge, Rivera, Wagner, etc. Before these guys became closers, they didn’t have any saves but had the kind of make-up and stuff to become closers should their said teams put them in this role.
And that’s the point here. Rivera was set up for John Wetteland and became closer because the Yanks knew they didn’t have to have Wetteland in the role with Rivera’s stuff. Same situation as to why Houston stopped paying Wagner when they knew they had Lidge.
All you have to do is look at teams like Oakland and the White Sox, flush with a plethora of young, loaded arms (like Duscherer) but already have closers in place.
Find out the needs of those teams and make the deal. Yes, I would deal hitting because you can’t ignore your bullpen.
The Braves have gone home early from way too many post seasons over the years because of their bullpen (minus the Smoltz years) & you need a strong pen. The biggest factor for the White Sox and Astros last year was thye had deep pens…look at the trends.
The Braves are hung up on SAVES. That number means nothing. Dan Kolb got a bunch of “saves” in 2004 with a non contending Milwaukee eam as a ground ball pitcher who didn’t strike out anyone. Say for example Justin Duscherer had been the Brewers closer in 2004? He would have also gotten 40 saves with a low ERA, but unlike Kolbb, if you looked closer at his numbers, he would have had the strikeouts and make-up to justify a trade in the offseason.
The difference? The Brewers who actually do look at a pitcher, probably wouldn’t have dealt a pitcher like Dusacherer or a Derrick Turnbow. They dealt Dan Kolbb to us because all we did was see a low ERA, an all star appearance and a bunch of low pressure meaningless saves, and tell ourselves this guy is a stud.
Yes, this is long winded but I am once again with my like minded friend Brad here in aiming my venom this morning at Schuerholz. He’s the GM. So, he didn’t want to PAY a big name veteran or make half ass attempts at some. Fine. Then actually get off you lazy arse and make a deal for a younger middle releiver on of these teams, like a Duscherer, that throws big time heat and strikes people out.
But that actually may require some thinking.
No better we should keep wasting roster spots on ancient hacks like Remlinger and Brian Jordan so Cox can relive the glory days of the 1990’s. Ridiculous. All we have to do is look at last year and see YOUNG players like Langerhans, McCann & Francouer, completely outplay old or overrated players like Jordan, Mondesi and Estrada to know the strategy of old or mediocre players in key spots is a poor strategy.
As for Mike Remlinger, this is simple. CUT HIM. Cut him now and stop giving Bobby Cox the opportunity to use this washed up hack in key spots. Cut Jordan too. I don’t care who they use to “back up” LaRoche. Use a puppy.
But please get this crap off my team.
I remember saying all winter long to Mac: “Mac, there’s no way the Braves would really waste a roster spot on Jordan this year? Right?”
But then again, this is typical Bobby Cox.
A humorous note:
Andruw is leading the team (among all qualified hitters, i.e. 3.1 PA/G) in batting average, hits, home runs, RBI, runs, and steals.
Giles has been playing better, but he has really stunk in the leadoff role. I think it is time to flip him and Renteria
I agree, Smitty.
Preach it Brother Alex…
I was never bothered that we didn’t go get one of the old guy relievers. I was in the camp that wanted JS to give the angels a call for shields or the A’s and White Sox would have been fine as well.
Giles is struggling but with Renteria hitting as well as he has I don’t think you want to touch him. Leave Renteria where he is and let him continue what he’s doing. He is not a lead-off hitter. I think Giles will be fine. The top 4 in our line-up is the one part of our line-up that is stable.
A few notes from the ballpark….
Obviously it was a tough game to lose, but the team looked surprisingly good. Brett Myers was pitching very well, and while everyone looked overmatched at first, they also looked confident they could get to him. And, eventually, they did. Andruw’s HR really was the proverbial “big fly.”
Charlie Manuel’s managing in the 8th was bizarre and darned near gave us the game. Why you would go to the trouble to pitch to Andruw and then walk LaRoche is beyond me. Andruw just missed two of those pitches–even the Phillies fans recognized that they had really gotten away with something in pitching to him at that point. If Langerhans had been able to get a hit….
But he didn’t, and Remlinger looked old and in the way. About the only saving grace is that it happened so quickly.
Jeff Francoeur in person is worth the price of admission. His hustle and athleticism…. I know it does not compensate for all the outs he makes, and at bats he gives away, but he is fun to watch. The threat of his arm stopped the Phillies from scoring twice on hits with men on second base, including in the eighth inning, where it set up Burrell’s double play. The catch he made in the outfield–was it the sixth, on Abreu?–was fantastic. And on his RBI single, he hustled into second when Rowand threw to third base.
Anyhow, trying to make the best of a bad loss…. Other than Remlinger, the team played well, and they looked like a winning team. Perhaps the victories will start to come….
FYI, Johnny Estrada has gotten off to a great start: .299/.338/.478/.815. He’s batting almost exclusively left-handed. It’s still early though.
It’s not that the Braves need a catcher, I’m just saying. I’ve got a soft-spot for Johnny (don’t know why), and I’m glad to see he seems to have recovered from Erstad’s cheap shot. I’m still pissed the HoRam couldn’t even plunk the guy.
I agree JC. I love McCann, but was sad when Johnny left. I’m glad to see he’s doing well.
Crybabies. One game and suddenly it’s all Remlinger’s fault, or worse yet the GM. Grow up!
Accept that the Braves don’t have the budget of the Mets and the Dodgers. There wasn’t any money for an active winter. Look what we’ve got at 1B, with Delgado on the market. See our downgrade at SS. See who’s playing LF. The team was being sold, and the last thing needed was new financial obligations. Any acquisition would have required salary unloading, e.g. John Thomson. Lucky JS didn’t go that way.
Even if we weren’t paying half of Hampton’s deal this year, would you pay $6 million for Kyle Farnsworth? We are lucky JS wasn’t stupid enough to pay the asking price for Danny Baez, the best of the dubious lot listed. Unless you critics are willing to part with Davies and James.
If and when new ownership wishes, you may see some acquisitions. Until then we will have to rely on scouting and player development.
Meanwhile be honest about this year’s big problem: the Mets. They can afford to add Wagner, Delgado and LoDuca on top of Pedro and Beltran. They are a supermajor market team, the Braves, without the cable networks tied in, are a midmarket franchise. Fortunately, we’ve got the best GM in baseball.
It’s hard to blame Remlinger too much, from my POV at least. The guy doesn’t deserve to be on a big league roster. He almost retired. He was cut by the Cubs. He’s not a good pitcher any more. And yet…
He may well be our second best reliever (after the hated Reitsma). Who else is there? Pete Moylan? Kenny Ray? Oscar “Thief of Wins” Villareal? Chuck James? We just don’t have a lot of talent back there any more. I don’t know how we’re going to fix it, but I confess I don’t have too much faith in the group we’ve got.
I’m not saying JS isn’t terrific. He is one of the very elite GM’s in the game today. I’m not advocating that we should have went out and tried to be the mets. The fact is that we simply failed to pull off any legit moves to improve the bullpen. It seemed that the plan was to bring in as many warm bodies as possible and that ‘someone’ would become closer from that bunch. I just think that for now that strategy is a bigger gamble than even John Daly is confident taking. Our starting pitching, hitting, and bench are good enough to do the job. The one place that will burn us in the long run is the bullpen. We may even make the playoffs with the bullpen we have, but a WS title is another thing.
Of the Braves 15 loses 9 have been by 1 run. I think the majority of those games could have gone the other way if we had 1 or 2 guys in the bullpen that we could count on to kill a rally or get 3 outs in the 8th or 9th innings.
At this time we don’t have one guy that you can feel good about coming into those situations.
Is Remlinger and Cormier the only bullpen we got .. I see Cormier has gone on DL ..no wonder he pitches every night .. and Remplinger seems like he has pitched the last 3 or 4 .. he will be on DL soon … bullpen is in disaray and when you have only 2 starters hitting over 300 and 4 hitting 200 your gonna loose … METS have got us this year ..their lineup and bullpen are better .. our starters compare with theirs but when you got Beltran, Delgado, Wright and so on ..we cant match that …
It was bad enough worrying about Reitsma in the ninth, but now we got to worry about pretty much everyone. The one guy I had real confidence is was Lance Cormier, and he’s gone.
McBride ain’t going to cut it neither.
I’m torn. Remmy’s peripherals backed up his ERA thus far. He really had been quite good before his last 2 games. Certainly not smoke and mirrors. But at the same time, I’m not sure someone of his age with his injury history should have 16 appearances with 27 games on the season, even if it’s only 9.0 IP. I know he says his shoulder feels fine, but come on Bobby!!
Crazy as it sounds, if he could keep up his good work, I’d rather have him as the set-up man over Villarreal (losing Boyer sucks). At least until he proves otherwise. But that means no more LOOGY use and cut down on his apperances. As has been pointed out, his splits have been better vs. righties for a long time, anyway. McBride should be the LOOGY.
Remmy’s been much better than I thought he would be. I’m impressed. I just hope we’re seeing a bump in the road and not that his year so far was a fluke.
Has Mcbride pitched yet ???? Also when your best two hitters are hitting around 260 .. that aint good
WPA graph of last night’s game
Fangraphs is really cool these days (well, I suppose it always has been!), by the way.
Need to move McCann up in the order and move Laroche down ..possibly sitting beside Bobby on bench …. McCann would have some RBI’s if he was up in the order ..its hard to get RBI’s when nobody is on base in front of you … Chipper, Andrew (homer or dribbler ), Laroche and Francour .. you dont may oportunities. Bench is awful too ..ORR, DIAZ and PRATT all under 200 in BA … when will it all end ???
I want to move LaRoche down in the order where he is playing for the Royals
the Royals have some decent relievers – maybe we can steal someone from them. They will be unloading that new payroll before long.
The Cubs were able to pick up Bob Howry and Scott Eyre, two very serviceable bullpen arms, in the off-season. The Braves probably could not have afforded both of them–the Cubs have money to burn–but probably could have gotten one of them to help what everyone knew from the outset was the team’s key weakness.
bobby always starts off by giving his veterans more playing time than they should, then for the long haul he uses who is best. i disagree with the majority of you on here when i say the bullpen, as a whole, is not our problem. i think the closer role is killing us. it did not last night, but i think it will over the course of the season. if i were a brave, i know i would not have confidence in a sure win if reitsma is coming on in the ninth. you can just tell when a team has a solid closer and they send him in to shut the opposers down. i remember going to the games when smoltz would come in, and the whole presence of the stadium did a complete 180. everyone, fans, birds, babies, and most of all, the team on the field oozed with confidence that the game was a lock. glimpses of that came back last year with farnsworth, but it is a “shot in the arm” or “boost of confidence” that we are missing right now. closer is more than just a person who closes a game in the 9th, it gives confidence to a team (including bullpen) in innings 1-8.
If this was already mentioned up there, I apologize. I didn’t really feel like reading all 100 posts. But you can cross Guardado off the list of people we should’ve gotten, too. He has flat-out sucked this year. Here are his jaw-droppingly awful numbers:
0-2, 8.38 ERA, 3 blown saves, 14 H, 9 ER, 4 H
So yeah…not sure we wanted him.
Oops…that would be 4 HR
Jeepers, Remlinger was probably the best reliever the Braves have had before last night’s game. That’s not saying that he’s been good, but he was the only guy (other than James, who has been pitching entirely in low-pressure situations) with a good ERA and decent strikeout and walk numbers. He couldn’t get it done, and I haven’t thought he would continue to (since he can’t throw through wet paper anymore) but using him was absolutely the right call in those circumstances.
I still think, whatever Dan thinks, that McBride is the best bullpen arm that the Braves have. There aren’t many guys who throw lefty in the low-to-mid nineties and get ground balls. Frankly, Dan, unless last year’s Cards game is the only time you saw him I don’t understand why you’ve written him off. I’ll reiterate the numbers — 14 IP, 22 K, 7 BB, and a fielding independent ERA of 1.34. At worst, he’s a heck of a LOOGY.
This just in: In an incredible trade the Braves get CP Mariano Rivera from the Yankees for Lf Ryan Langerhans, Rp Ken Ray and Cash.
What is the Braves record right now? Also, How many games are left in the season? Oh one last thing, when are we going to play against the Marlins?
Thanks for backing me up, supporters. Don’t get me wrong–I love Cox (sometimes) and JS. I support the team and try and stay positive. But when I see errors, I can’t let my blind support prevent me from criticizing. And my point on JS isn’t that he messed up by not signing Guardado or Farnsworth–those were examples. My point was that he has a DUTY to the fans in ATL and the team that shows up fighting every day to FIX a huge, gaping, festering problem, and his ‘solution’ was a 40-yr old reliever that couldn’t beg for a job. Take your braves-colored glasses off and see that he dropped the ball this offseason; and we’ll feel the effects every time reitsma or remlinger blows a game.
Just got this message trying to post on BravesBeat.com forums (of which I have over 2000 posts):
You have been banned for the following reason:
None
Date the ban will be lifted: Never
Well, that was fun.
Nice, wryn =)
I don’t understand why is that funny?
For Vols apologists out there:
http://sports.espn.go.com/ncf/news/story?id=2433010
http://sports.espn.go.com/ncf/news/story?id=2433159
Did you guys knew that in Puerto Rico cocks fights are legal?
For what it’s worth, here’s a list of the relievers sorted by their average use in terms of crucial situations. The start of a game has a “P” value of about .048, so you can use that as a reference point:
(Player: average “P” value entering the game)
Reitsma: .101
Remlinger: .078
Villareal: .072
Cormier: .055
Ray: .043
James: .035
Remlinger’s usage pattern was skewed a bit by last night’s awful performance, so it wasn’t that bad before. When he’s used like a LOOGY, it’s a bit maddening, though, kind of like when Bobby pinch-hits for Langerhans or McCann with Diaz, Jordan, or Todd Pratt. Most of the time, that just doesn’t make sense. Otherwise, Bobby’s done a decent job so far. I’d love to know how other teams do in this regard.
Cockfights. Actually, they’re semi-legal in much of the south, except you’re not supposed to bet on them (wink wink).
War Liberal: I don’t blame them
So I got JS’s book in the mail today. I’ll let you all know if I find anything interesting.
I also decided, while picking up this package, that I hate my history prof. Along with the package was a big fat envelope that I didn’t recognize. I looked at the return address: the Mayo Clinic. Let me tell you, even when you know you haven’t had any tests and there’s nothing wrong with you, getting a fat envelope from the Mayo Clinic in the mail totally freaks you out. Well, I opened it, shaking like a leaf, to discover that my history prof had shoved next week’s reading into it and just wanted to recycle envelopes. Now I want to go punch him for scaring me like that.
I have a piece on Schuerholz’s book that I almost got published on a web site that shall remain anonymous. I’ll figure out what to do with it eventually.
Well, at least he’s attempting to crack down, ububba. Given that he obviously didn’t care over the last couple of seasons, it’s probably gonna take a few of those for players to get the message. It’ll also be interesting to see how much he follows through with this.
On a slightly different note, I always find it kind of interesting that we’re not Vols fans, we’re always Vols apologists. It’s like we’re the supporters of a corrupt regime that is holding the nation hostage or something. We’re just fans of a college football team, not unlike you, I’m sure. I mean, pardon me if you think we’re bringing the sport down a level or something.
Also, I think it’s interesting to note that Heath Shuler’s political career is already more successful than his NFL one.
http://sports.espn.go.com/ncf/news/story?id=2433010
What’s gotten into Fulmer, he has never cared before how his players act off the field. Now he is kicking them off! Didn’t nearly half of his team get arrested before last season? I dont remember any punishment for those players.
my apologies – should have looked at previous posts
Flumer has kicked off players before. Every school has guys tath get arrested and it has been over a year since any Tennessee players had been arrested, I don’t think you can say the same about UGA South Carolina and a few other SEC schools.
You’re not allowed to bet in a cockfight. Hahahaha. That’s hilarious, I have to tell this to my friends.:-D
Uh, did anyone catch this in Will Carroll’s column today?
“Stan Kasten appears to be moving fast. Some key Braves staffers are apparently checking real estate listings in the D.C. area.”
This I do not like the sound of. Who is he trying to steal? Moore? Wren? Some other important guy whose name I don’t know? I’d rather it be older guys than younger guys, since JS may not stick around much longer (especially with this putrid sale to Liberty Media and maybe someone else after that) and we need successors, but I don’t like the idea of a division rival taking anybody from our front office.
I wondered about this yesterday when I read that Red Sox fans were worried about the new owners trying to poach Jed Hoyer. It occurred to me briefly that if a former Braves honcho was in the Lerner group, they might target us first, because there’s no way they’re dumb enough to keep Bowden, especially not after that DUI. Looks like I was right. Of course, Carroll could just be hearing things, but it makes way too much sense.
I think that we sucked so badly last year that Fulmer decided he needed to take control back. He did actually run a fairly tight ship back in the mid to late 90s (you know, back when we were actually winning things?). Not sure why he slacked off, but it’s caused him to lose control of the team twice now in the last four years. I think maybe he’s actually come to the realization that maybe his team does better when it’s thinking about football rather than randomly shooting guns into the air outside parties.
Nick two words:
Kelly Washington
Yeah…that would’ve been one of the years where he lost control of the team. While he did eventually dispose of Washington, he did it far too late, and he seemed to be utterly helpless for the most part while Washington (among others)brought the team down from the inside.
Washington is still “The Future”, by the way.
What if Washington was on the same team as Al Wilson? Wilson would have probably ended Washington’s carrer in the third practice of the season.
Yeah…that would’ve been pretty ugly.
Nick,
I’m a UGA grad & I’m just breaking balls…
You can apologize for wearing orange as much as you like. 😉
Heh heh…gee, thanks ububba. How sporting of you. 😉
Another 2-strike hit. Why are our pitchers so stupid?