123 thoughts on “Fredi, Immortal game thread: July 6, Rockies at Braves”

  1. Schafer 8 Gonzalez 6 McCann 2 Chipper 5 Freeman 3 Hinske 9 Uggla 4 McLouth 7 Jurrjens 1

    What’s wrong with Heyward now?

  2. I don’t understand the “logic” behind AGony hitting in the 2 hole.
    And didn’t Uggla suck a little bit less hitting 2nd?

  3. I guess it goes to show you that lineups dont change the outcome that much. I hate this lineup, but its worked.

    Chipper is better hitting 3rd.
    Bmac is better hitting 4th.
    Uggla is better in the 4th or 7th spot.
    Schafer sucks leading off.
    AAG sucks everywhere.

    Just throw darts and hope for good pitching.

  4. I think MRSA is trying to “get Gonzalez going” by getting some fastballs “to hit” because “Schafer’s going to be on base” ahead of him.

  5. I don’t get this whole ‘he’s better at batting at X spot in the lineup’ thing. If a player sucks, then 50 abs’ of ‘evidence’ in a certain lineup spot isn’t going to change the fact that they still suck.

    The only real lineup optimization is when you bat your better players early, and your bad players late.

  6. Seeing the Frediot’s lineups on a daily basis is like looking at a tinker-toy abominations of a 3 year old.

    There’s no way to explain AAG hitting second that isn’t absurd.

    Of course, if JJ holds serve with Doc on the race to the starting AS gig, tonight’s lineup won’t really matter.

  7. Pastornicky hit for the cycle last night and is now up to a .767 ops. What’s also pretty great about him is that he’s only struck out in 10% of his at-bats.

    Good defense and all, I’ll be happy if we let Alex walk next year. His plate approach is infuriating at times. He’s down to a .625 ops and has lost quite a bit of his value of late (down to a 1 WAR overall).

  8. Isn’t there anyone out there who can pick it AND hit it?

    I mean, besides Jose Reyes?

  9. Imagining a Feliz/Venters/Kimbrel bullpen right now… along with Andrus at short…

    Well, the principles behind the Teixeira deal and the McGriff/Hudson deal are the same. You win some, you lose some.

    The fact that Teixeira is the 4th(!) highest paid player in the game does not cease to baffle me. That, and the fact that Joe Mauer is the 5th highest paid player. I understand that if you’re the Twins, you have to make that deal or the fan base revolts; but, it seems so bad just one year later. I really think that Mauer’s a great example of why mid-market teams shouldn’t dole out any contracts longer than 4 or 5 years, which is something that the Braves are really good at. The Twins are in major trouble for the next decade if Mauer can’t come back.

    I was clamoring for Werth over the offseason, but that Dan Uggla deal looks downright great compared to his.


    Troy T. of the Rockies. But, it’s quite apparent that there are not very many good SS’s in the league right now.

  10. If you had Feliz, Venters would probably never have emerged. As for Andrus, they thought Yunel was better.

    The Mauer deal only seems bad in retrospect. There was no reason to expect him to get hurt.

    BTW,how is the Braves attendence relative to last year? My understanding is that normally it picks up after school but I am still seeing a lot of small crowds. I understand the problems with access to the stadium and so forth, but I would have thought a good team would draw more fans.

  11. The Braves are currently 15th in attendance with an average of about 28,000. Last year, they were 13th with an average of about 30,000.

    Checked and discovered that it would be the first year since ’04 that attendance averaged below 30,000 and only the 2nd time in Turner Field history. So your hunch is right, Marc S., though since there are more summertime games to come that average may yet improve.

  12. #13
    When you’re talking about the Yankees, it doesn’t have to make any sense, relative to the rest of the clubs.

    With YES Network, they have a license to print money & “overpay” players for as long as MLB lets them. They’ve spent scads of cash on people who didn’t contribute at all (Kei Igawa, Drew Henson, any number of middle relievers); so it shouldn’t be surprising that they overpaid on the premium signings (Sabathia, Teixeira, Giambi, Mussina, etc.)

    Throw in the circumstances of the Teixeira signing—they stole him from the Sawx at the 11th hour—and it makes perfect sense in YankeeLand.

  13. @12 – J.J. Hardy. I think a deal for him is worth exploring. But it’s not very likely.

    Oh, and Yunel Escobar. But that’s beside the point.

  14. 14,

    Mauer was one month away from his 27th birthday. Paying a catcher, coming off a career season, for his age 33-34-35 seasons sounds like an awful deal to me. Especially when that Catcher has already had surgery on his knees (2004). He also got unheard of money for a small-market club.

    The Braves put Venters in their bullpen after a fantastic 2010 spring. That would have had nothing to do with keeping Feliz; Venters would simply have been another really good arm coming out. He earned the set-up role last year, and would have earned it even with Feliz around.


    Very true and valid points. I’m still surprised that four teams (Nats, Orioles, Sox, and Yanks, I believe) were willing to go that expensive on him.

  15. I’d be surprised if AAG was not the starting SS for the Braves in 2012. McLouth’s gone and Kawakami’s off the books, so that’s your budget for picking up a CF. Pastonicky will need to play lights out in AAA the second half of this year and storm Spring Training to be considered ahead of another year of AAG.

  16. On the last thread, someone said Heyward does’t need a platoon partner

    .164/.271/.295/.567 this year against LH pitching.
    .226/.335/.372/.706 career against LH pitching.

  17. I would like to see us in on Hardy if the Os can’t extend him. If they are becoming the slightest bit impatient with their young pitching, we should exploit the situation.

  18. 20,

    We probably should let that ‘career’ pan out a little before we make judgments. And he had a .755 OPS against Lefties his rookie season, at age 20. I venture that number is going to go up to at least .850 in his best seasons, but he’s not going to learn how to hit lefties sitting on the bench. Developmentally, he does not need a platoon partner.

  19. @22,

    Optimizing Heyward’s developmental path isn’t going to help much against Cole Hamels and Cliff Lee in the 2011 NLCS. Pennants fly forever.

  20. If the Sox took back Lowe (who pitched last night)… Pierre sucks, but he sucks less than Schafer right now.

  21. @13

    Nothing short of whiskey can make the Uggla deal look too good right this moment.

  22. Even if some of these “proposals” seem crazier than others, it’s nice to have a pretty deep well of trading options.

  23. #30 – Don’t confuse the “god we got so screwed by that Tiexiera deal” mojo by bringing up bothersome facts.

  24. Interesting discussion in some of the “chats” today. Would you trade Jurrjens for Stubbs?

  25. csg- No. I don’t see Stubb’s upside. He’s Nate McLouth w/better defense right now, and he wasn’t much more than that in the minors. I’d trade JJ for Jay Bruce though.

  26. @14, it has been hotter than seven hells this summer in Atlanta. Started getting into the 90s in late May, and just hasn’t stopped. We’ve also had many savage thunderstorms too.

  27. @23 exactly.

    @22 I’m just saying “Heyward holds his own against lefties” shouldn’t keep us from looking at Quentin (or another righty slugger) as a legit option. He hasn’t, in 2011, been worth a damn against lefties.

  28. 24 — That makes it sound like the Braves are planning to keep Schafer in CF when Prado returns barring a trade.

  29. Is it just me or is it hilarious that AAG’s most similar player is the other Alex Gonzalez?

  30. Ive always despised Juan Pierre.

    Lester is joining Bucholz on the DL and Lackey has been brutal…I wonder how much it would take to get Theo to give us Ellsbury?

  31. Something else i’ve noticed this year and last year that makes them different than the previous 3-4 years, when we get into the late innings with a lead I don’t find myself wondering how we are going to blow the game

  32. @35, I always thought South Florida was the hottest place in the country and I was really nervous about moving here. I still can’t wrap my head around the fact that Atlanta has been routinely 10-15 degrees hotter all year.

  33. “This is getting the job done here,” Mr. Jordan? Funny, I thought the triple-single-double sequence got things done much better.

  34. Would Houston do a Bourn for Randall Delgado/Arodys Vizcaino and Nate McLouth trade?

  35. @50 – It’s actually Gant in the booth tonight. But he and Jordan are virtually the same broadcaster (except I think Gant can actually say the letter ‘R’), and both are terrible for the exact same reasons.

  36. #33-34, I was thinking the same. Both chats said Cincy would turn that offer down. I was surprised.

  37. 26,

    McLouth, Mike Minor, Tyler Pastornicky and Edward Salcedo for Hunter Pence

    LOL. Why not Jurrjens, Hanson, Beachy and Heyward for Hunter Pence?

  38. Stuck with Phillies/Marlins here and it’s looking like a blowout. I guess if we just win every day from here on out then maybe we’ll make up 3 or 4 games.

  39. Chippa! There’s the HR, I was just a little early in calling for it.

    EDIT: And now Freeman slices one the other way. Joe is gonna have to change his pants with all this opposite field hitting.

  40. So I have been out of town for about a week and you guys seem to be holding the the fort down. Good work

  41. Joe, it’s not worth going nuts over whether or not a play is scored a hit or an error.

  42. Schaffer thinks he should be lead off man. Has he adjusted to speed of ML game?

  43. Gant: “Helton’s splits have always been just as good on the road as at Coors field.”

    Career home: .355/.452/.623/1.074
    Career away: .292/.392/.481/.873

    Helton’s been a very good (great?) player no matter where he’s swinging, but don’t try to say he (or anybody) is just as good away from CO.

  44. Ah, thanks csg. Didn’t catch that. He’s still boring, monotone, and uninsightful.

  45. Fredi struck again. Why in the world did he go Lefty-Lefty there with Heyward??? I’m watching the game on the Rockies Channel, and their announcers were stunned.

  46. The real question is…..in a 7-1 game does Fredi still use Venters for the 8th?

  47. 80, how about anyone but Heyward? We have two righties and a switch hitter on our bench, not counting Ross.

  48. I swear, if Linebrink serves one up to Helton and we use Venters/Kimbrel to close the game, I might break something.

  49. @84 To assume would make an
    ass of u & me. Good thing Fredi does not smoke with full pack Linebrink

  50. You know, it wasn’t that long ago relief pitchers routinely threw 2-3 innings per outing, and would pitch a hundred-plus innings per season. Now managers that use relief pitchers for 80 innings a year are abusing them?

    And the ‘baby all pitchers’ philosophy is permeating the fans’ mindsets, not just the managers.

  51. Dan, there was a time, not long ago, that starting pitchers threw 300 innings a year.

    You can’t manage your way to the ’82 pennant in 2011.

  52. Scott Proctor, Oscar Villarreal, and Peter Moylan think you’re wrong, Dan.

  53. Dan, they didn’t pitch 80 games per season while throwing those 100 innings. They also tended to hurt their arms pretty frequently.

  54. I used to do certain things one way, but now I do some of them in a different way.

  55. I smell some Proctology coming in the 9th! 6 runs is Proctor proof, right?

    EDIT: On second thought, I take it all back. It’s not good to tempt fate.

  56. 30,31

    Andrus has 2.2 WAR compared with Gonzalez’s .9 WAR this season. He’s provided 8.1 WAR in his three years with the Rangers, making him the eight(!) best SS in the majors during that time period. He has a 90 wRC+ this year, compared with Gonzalez’s 72 wRC+. That 90 wRC+ places him 14th among all ML shortstops this year.

    But, as you said, don’t let facts get in the way of your argument.


    It’s not that your opinions are wrong (they are), it’s that you have to act like a complete jerk when you present them. I bet you don’t have many friends, or you may have developed some social skills.

  57. I wouldn’t say 80 innings is necessarily abuse, but Venters is on pace for 100 innings, in about 90 appearances. The guys back in the day that threw 100+ innings out of the pen probably did so in closer to 50 or 60 appearances. Which would seem to be a lot less stressful on the arm than spreading it out over 90 apps. Plus JV has been noticeably less sharp lately.

    EDIT: Or what people above have said.

  58. You know what Mac says about hope…

    But it sure would be nice if he could keep it up.

  59. Good job Uggla.

    You only need another half a season of this to redeem yourself.

  60. Four hits for Schafer tonight. Won’t save his starting job when Prado’s back, but maybe it’ll keep him from returning to Gwinnett.

  61. How can Charlie Blackmon’s nickname not be “Mars”?

    Ah, the joys of winning in a rout. I could get used to this.

  62. So JJ will be the first Brave to reach 12 wins before the ASB since Russ Ortiz in 2003, and he won 21. (Though he had the best offense in the league behind him.)

  63. I choose to believe that Proctor’s appearance to close out a 9-1 game (instead of Gearrin) means that Fredi has realized Proctor’s true calling. Of course, I’m probably wrong, but a guy can dream, right?

  64. 117 — If Proctor gets sent down once Martinez is eligible to come back up then yes, otherwise we just have to hope it’s close enough.

  65. That was a great win, but, more importantly, I have deciced to legally change my name to Bizarro O’Ventbrel. Thanks, Catz.

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