146 thoughts on “Ban the Dan game thread: June 7, Braves at Marlins”

  1. Dan Brouthers is in the Hall of Fame. He never played for the Braves, but he had an awesome moustache.

  2. I’m excited to have Mark Lamm in a Braves’ uni — big-time athlete with a lot of velo — but why are we drafting so many right-handed relievers? There are more pressing needs…

  3. McCann scheduled day off. Alex once again batting second. Frediot strikes again.

  4. It appears that our new draft approach is to only go after signable college players. I guess we’ll see how well this works within the next two or three years.

  5. Going way back, you can’t forget one of the worst Braves relievers of all time – Danny Frisella. You may have a point, I can’t think of any good Dans.

  6. Danny Murtaugh went just 1-for-8 in a Boston Braves uniform, but when he managed the NL All-Star team in Atlanta in 1971, he sent Henry Aaron out into the field at the start of the seventh inning and then immediately pulled him for a substitute, which allowed the home fans to give Henry a standing ovation.

    So not all Dans are bad.

  7. Wren should have known better. Maybe Uggla should change his name. Maybe in the Southern tradition he should go by his middle name. Now batting 9th for the Atlanta Braves Cooley Uggla!

  8. Man, Kal Daniels. I still remember playing Earl Weaver Baseball and using his 1987 season to platoon against RHP- I had to look it up just now and he OPS’d 1.166 in 343 PA against righties that year. Of course, against lefties he was 2011 Dan Uggla but who cared?

  9. Also, who remembers danny bautista getting rocked in the face by a fastball? talk about bloody…

  10. Prima facie, the Braves’ third round pick looks better than the second round pick. Left handed infielders with power aren’t as common as utility infielders with no pop.

  11. I like the approach of going after the college kids. They can be ready much faster, and perhaps being a bit older and wiser also helps. The MLB draft is a giant crapshoot anyways. The vast majority never make it and the can’t-miss prospects very often miss. IMO high-level college ball is just as competitive as the low minors so if you stand out in college then you should be rated ahead of almost any high-school player.

  12. Spike, that’s a slightly arbitrary cutoff.

    I don’t see how comparing Teix’s career to others his own age is “arbitrary” but fine, let’s ask it a different way. Who in the non-Pujols 1B division is better? He has a higher fWAR total and fWar/Season average than Votto and Gonzalez, and an eyelash behind Cabrera. Does being in the conversation for best 1B in the AL not count as elite any more?

  13. I mostly remember Danny Bautista for dropping a fly in the ’98 NLCS.

    I mostly remember Danny Frisella for his fatal dune-buggy accident.

    #13
    Kal Daniels vs. ATL:
    77 G, 288 PA, 289/399/500

    Yep, Kal was a Braves killer.

    At a game in Dodger Stadium during that glorious ’91 season, I saw Kal Daniels hit an opposite-field grand slam off that immortal Brave, Doug Sisk.

    I remember walking out of the stadium as the Braves sunk to 6-7, thinking, “Boy, have I seen this movie before.” Little did I know…

  14. Spike, I said that it’s arbitrary because you’re not comparing him to younger players who are arguably better, like Votto and Adrian Gonzalez, and Hosmer could be in that category in a couple years, too.

    Also, you’re not comparing apples to apples in your fWAR/season average. Votto’s first season, 2007, was a 24-game tryout — that shouldn’t count against his full-season average.

    In Votto’s three full seasons, he has averaged 5.3 fWAR a year, and he already has 3.2 this year. In Cabrera’s seven full seasons, he has averaged 5.0 a year, and he already has 2.5 this year.

    Adrian Gonzalez is much closer. In Gonzalez’s five full seasons, he has averaged 4.4 a year, and he already has 2.4 this year; by comparison, in Teixeira’s eight full seasons, he has averaged 4.5 a year, and he already has 2.1 this year. They’re virtually indistinguishable. And both are far, far behind Votto, Cabrera, and of course Pujols.

    In Teixeira’s

  15. Braves took another VU reliever, Navery Moore, but I’ll be pretty surprised if he signs.

    EDIT: Navery was the #1 prospect in his class as a high school junior before blowing his elbow out. Worked mostly in relief at VU — another guy, like Lamm, who throws hard but doesn’t miss as many bats as you’d expect. Secondary stuff needs work.

    Anyway, I expect that this is like a Josh Fields/Casey Weathers situation, where he’ll see the opportunity to really raise his stock (and signing bonus offer) if he returns to school and develops a little more. No way he signs for 14th-round slot.

  16. Someone was on the radio here yesterday trying to make the case that Mark Teixeira wasn’t a superstar and I thought, “He sure seems like a superstar to me.”

  17. AJC links I won’t be clicking on: “Francoeur takes batting practice in his underwear”

  18. He’s sure paid like a superstar. But I don’t know that he is one. I find Joe Posnanski’s logic on this one from last December pretty compelling:

    Tex is a terrific player, absolutely terrific, and I don’t want anyone to miss that point. But his contract seems to be bizarrely out of step with his reality. His contract is eight years, $180 million. Starting this season, he will get $22.5 million per year for the next six years. It is the fifth-largest total value contract ever given out (two of those are Alex Rodriguez deals), and Teixeira will be the third-highest paid every day player in baseball in 2011 (behind only Alex Rodriguez and Joe Mauer).

    Why? Is Mark Teixeira the third-best player in baseball? No. Is he the best first baseman in baseball. No. That’s Albert Pujols. Is he second best? Third best? Fourth best? Maybe. But maybe not. After a while you look at the other best first basemen — and you realize a lot of them can hit about as well as Teixeira. Here are the Top OPS+ for first basemen over the last five seasons:

    1. Albert Pujols, 177
    2. Miguel Cabrera, 152
    3. Joey Votto, 151
    4. Lance Berkman, 143
    5. Adrian Gonzalez, 141
    6. Ryan Howard, 141
    7. Prince Fielder, 140
    8. Mark Teixeira, 138
    9. Justin Morneau, 137
    10. Carlos Pena, 134
    11. Kevin Youkilis, 131
    12. Paul Konerko, 126

    Tex is a better fielder than many of these, so that adds value. He’s 30, so you would hope he still has some awesome years left in him. But that contract just seems a bit out of touch with the excellent but not exactly unique player that is Mark Teixeira. Why him? He seems like a texpensive to me.

  19. In calculating “superstar,” does position scarcity matter? And how about defense? I ask since we’re using WAR. I also wonder if someone like, say, Andruw Jones was a superstar by this or any other criteria.

  20. Fun with Baseball Reference:

    (1) Bob Didier’s middle name is Daniel
    (2) Emmanuel Daniels is currently hitting .350 for the Braves in the Dominican Summer League in 5 games, although he hit .138 last year

    And on the side of Hated Dans: Gladden, October 1991

  21. Did Dan Pasqua ever play for the BOB?

    (Bad Ol’ Braves)

    I used to hate Dan-te Bichette.

  22. 1B position scarcity is slightly contrived, though. Because it’s at the end of the defensive spectrum, that’s not where the best young athletes start out. Many of the best hitters in baseball are not at first base — like Evan Longoria, or Robinson Cano, or Chase Utley, or Matt Holliday, or Joe Mauer, or Ryan Zimmerman. Many of them may wind up at first base once they’re past their prime.

  23. I hope the Braves take more college relievers–because, you know, they definitely need them above all others.

  24. Well, how about we let young Mr. Votto go ahead and play eight or nine seasons before we just presume he’s a) going to without injury, and b) carry on at his present rate. And using OPS+ as a single stat to compare 1Bs with is less than convincing to me – Teix does have a few GG’s, seems only fair we factor those in somehow.

    Cabrera and Tex have nearly the same G and PA, so comparing their totals of 39.1 and 37.8 respectively seems eminently fair, and damn close to a wash to me over ~5600 PA each.

    /edit – fangraphs has their value to date as 152M and 148M respectively.

  25. Well, okay. I mean, Tex isn’t a wildly different player than Votto or Cabrera. He’s in the conversation as one of the two to five best first basemen in the game, which is to say, one of the best two to five at one of the eight defensive positions. He’s great, but he’s not singular. To put it another way, he’s a number one starter, but not an ace.

    But I feel bad about trying to defend this argument, since my whole point of my above comment about the Braves not being an elite team is that, ultimately, making a distinction between “elite” and “superstar” and “star” is mostly irrelevant. Being a star is good enough; being a 90-win team is good enough; having Teixeira in your lineup is good enough. All I want is a team that will win the Wild Card, and then I’ll take my chances.

  26. Gold Gloves should never be factored into anything.

    Other than that, I have no stance on this issue.

  27. @36, I thought it was implied that “GGs” was shorthand for “defensive value” in a discussion regarding the comparative merits of OPS+. My apologies.

  28. I agree with Alex. Lots of “superstars” struggle in the playoffs, such as Barry Bonds for most of his career. In the playoffs, it’s about players getting hot and there is just no way to predict that, whether they are stars, superstars, or just ordinary players. And the fact is, who were the Yankee “superstars” when they dominated the playoffs in the 90s? Jeter? He’s a great player but a superstar? That’s why you really can’t build a team to win the World Series; you build a team to make the playoffs and then hope things go your way.

  29. Crazy thing about Bernie was that he pretty much killed in the ALDS & ALCS, but kinda sucked in the WS.

    Generally, Jeter did what he did in the regular seasons, but on a bigger stage vs better teams.

  30. AAG is batting 2nd again for the third game in a row. We have enough trouble scoring runs without putting our worst on-base threat (besides Uggla) at the top of the order.

    /Frediot

  31. My name is Daniel; I hope y’all let me stick around.

    I agree with Stu about Navery Moore. Happy as I was that the Braves took him, he could go a lot higher than 14th round next year. Don’t have to worry about signing Lamm though; he’s a 5th yr senior.

  32. It sucks to have Alex at the top of the lineup, but lineup construction doesn’t have that big of an affect on a team’s ability to score runs. I predict that Fredi will do at least three to four things in tonight’s game that will have a greater negative affect on the team’s ability to win, such as one of the following:

    * Use his fourth- or fifth-best reliever in a high-leverage situation with runners on base, just because it’s before the seventh inning
    * Pinch-hit with Diory Hernandez instead of Brian McCann
    * Give the other team a free out via a caught stealing
    * Give the other team a free out via a top-of-the-order bunt
    * Not be fired

  33. @28,

    Salary is irrelevant. It’s like Lowe; he isn’t “worth” $15 million but he does add value. With the Yankees, they can overpay for good but not necessarily awesome production. At any given time, salaries arent’ going to reflect the relative value of each player, in part because contracts expire at different times, but also because some teams can or will pay more. Let’s face it, too, in a lot of cases, by the time guys get paid for what they are “worth” they aren’t worth it any more. A-Rod isn’t the player he was but he is getting paid for what he did in the past. That might happen with Pujols too.

  34. 46 – addendum to possibility #1: he will use an inferior reliever in a high leverage situation even in the 7th inning. To be precise, he will unnecessarily use either Proctor or Linebrink when the game hangs in the balance.

    And then he will be strongly defended by a condescending DOB.

  35. @47, Precisely true in this case. Marginal wins mean more to the Yankees than any other club. When you are the chip leader you bully the table. Teix was the best guy they could buy when the position came open, and overpaid rather than get beat for his services.

  36. Agreed that it’s irrelevant, and agreed that the Yankees are justified in paying more for marginal wins. I’m not saying that his salary makes him a worse player. I’m just saying he got overpaid, which we all seem to agree on.

  37. @41, how could Jeter be anything but a superstar? He’s probably one of the five or ten best shortstops ever to play major league baseball, and he’s the face of the most high profile franchise in the game. That’s all kinds of superstar.

  38. @46
    It’s roughly 1 hit or walk more compared to the other options that have been used in the 2nd spot. I agree it’s not much, but when you’re losing/winning so many games by 1 run, it could be vital.

  39. Also, saying your superstars carry you in the playoffs is a pretty weak statement. Many players become superstars by carrying a team in the playoffs. (Mr. Strikeout/October Reggie Jackson: .846 career OPS; 1.212 OPS in World Series games)

  40. So we traded for Dan Kolb, and he sucked. Not learning our lesson, we traded for Dan Uggla, gave him a huge contract extention, and he has sucked. The obvious lesson is No More Dans! They never work! Danny Bautista didn’t work, and Danys Baez didn’t work, and Danny Heep didn’t work, and Dan Meyer didn’t work, and Dan Petry didn’t work. No More Dans!

    Boo.

  41. He skipped AAA so he could face David Ross, Chipper Jones, Dan Uggla and the Atlanta Braves

  42. Freddie Freeman should not be running, especially with a guy like Uggla at the plate. Context doesn’t matter to Fredi; he just thinks “gotta be aggressive to make something happen!” and pulls the trigger.

  43. Fill in the blank: Fredi Gonzalez is the worst thing to happen to the Braves since __________.

  44. In the First World War, generals continued, practically up until the end, to order mass assaults of enemy trenches. These never did anything but get thousands killed, but were necessary to show that the generals were doing something.

    Fredi manages like that.

  45. It’d be awesome if the only contact they had was to fax an offer sheet with “F— YOU” scrawled across it.

  46. Worse contract, Uggla or Dunn?

    We can make just about any crappy pitcher look good.

  47. I know it’s not true, but it really feels like most AA clubs draw more than the Marlins. The shot that shows the front of the pitcher is crazy. Nothing but empty seats near the 1B foul pole.

  48. If you’re one of those guys who like to collect tons of foul balls, I’d recommend moving to Miami for half the year.

  49. #81
    Atlanta Fulton-County Stadium used to be like that. Worse, actually.

    Went to a game when I was a kid that had fewer than 4,000 people there, and it wasn’t that year’s lowest attendance.

    There were entire empty sections & you’d have crazy battles for foul balls. I never got one that way, but Marty Perez did toss one to me.

  50. I can’t wait for the new park personally. I’ll probably go see a Marlins-Braves game in September, but Miami in September won’t be too comfortable.

  51. Don’t worry about this little jam guys. Proctor and Sherrill are ready in the pen.

  52. I’d love the ump calling any corner for him. Or any edge. Or anywhere, really.

  53. Nice play Uggla. Its usually a bad idea to walk 3 in order to get Stanton up to the plate.

  54. Fredi sure looks intimidating standing there chewing gum with his hands on his hips.

  55. You joke, but he can single-handedly win games. Unfortunately, he wins them for the other team.

  56. The offense has been horrible, it’s the middle of the seventh, the starter’s out of the game, a man is on with no outs, and the Braves have one hit while the Fins have gotten on base seven times.

    I’m still pretty confident they’ll win the game. I love this pen.

  57. @94

    But he promised he would come back. He even crossed heart and hoped to die!

  58. rossy didn’t know he was starting today and took some lsd at the hotel

  59. From now on, No. 34 of the Braves must be referred to here as “Kim Jong-Il”. -BravesJournal Glossary

    Nice job, Kim Jong-Il

  60. Predict Fredi’s lineup tomorrow:

    Schafer 8
    Uggla 4
    Prado 7
    McCann 2
    Lowe 1
    Mather 9
    Hudson 3
    Venters 5
    Conrad 6

  61. Hmm, imagine that. Ross waits for a pitch to hit and gets a four pitch walk. I hate all our coaches. Fire them all now.

  62. 101—He made that promise to a coach who’s no longer employed by the “school.”

  63. @116 Fredi will say, “See, this is why I save the catcher! For instances like this that might happen twice a season!”

  64. Why would the Trail of Tears be inappropriate for humor but Kim Jong-Il not be?

    #DeepThoughts

  65. Kim Jong-Il can still nuke his enemies. Andrew Jackson, while he might want to do so, can not.

  66. (For the record, I was trying to be funny with my Trail of Tears/hilarity comment.)

  67. Another gambling ad on the banner behind the hitter. MLB’s gotta LOVE this.

    At least this is a legit company, not some guy with a website and a phone number.

  68. You know, if we didn’t have Uggla, we’d be pretty fed up with Chipper this year.

  69. Kim Jong-Il can still nuke his enemies. Andrew Jackson, while he might want to do so, can not.

    Hey: Andrew Jackson is honored on our $20.

  70. 131—Still too early. Besides, he is cutting it, defensively. Not his fault the incompetent manager keeps batting him first.

  71. Braves hitters got 1 hit, Braves pitchers walked 7 hitters, and somehow the Braves won. Why am I not happy?

  72. I cannot believe we won that game.

    Quick, sneak out the back before they notice anything is missing.

  73. Defensively Schafer is very solid, but his .534OPS whether 1st or 8th isnt going to keep him around for very long.

    Im on board with FIRE LARRY PARRISH.

  74. I’ve never been less excited about a win. Watching the 2011 Braves play the 2011 Marlins is a battle of who cares less.

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