Yeah, we’re doomed.

MRI shows Jones has torn ACL, agent said | Atlanta Braves.

You all know this already, of course. He’s going to get a second opinion, I assume from Dr. Andrews, but it looks pretty bad. Maybe they’ll say that he can make it through the season with a brace, but I wouldn’t count on it. Chipper was just starting to hit like Chipper, and replacing him with Brooks Conrad — folk hero status or not — is not good. It is probably too late to make a trade for a replacement who would fill the position as well as Infante.

352 thoughts on “Yeah, we’re doomed.”

  1. The problem with not replacing Infante is that it greatly depletes the bench. If Infante isn’t our super-sub, Diory’s on the team in the post-season. Assuming we make it that far.

  2. I thought it was weird to watch the Braves without Glavine, then Maddux, then Smoltz, but it will be a totally new sensation to watch the Braves next season without Chipper (potentially) and Bobby Cox (definitely).

  3. If Chipper tries to play through it (with a brace? I dunno) and the team makes the postseason, he would surpass Mr. Bloody Sock, Kirk Gibson and Philip Rivers in my book.

  4. I liked Chipper as a player, but I’m excited to see what Heyward, Hanson, Prado, McCann and the boys can do w/o Chipper and Cox.

    I am hoping the time-off did some good for Prado, it seems he and Utley should be returning at about the same time.

  5. I think we have to bring in someone else, but I’m afraid we won’t be able to. Uggla would actually probably fit in well , being a right handed “power” bat, allowing Prado to play third, which he’s good at, and keeping Infante as a super sub. But is Uggla available?

  6. Someone mentioned about the grueling 6 months of rehab for a torn ACL and that Chipper may not be willing to do that. If he wants to have decent mobility when he retires, he’s going to have to go through a tough rehab anyway. From his perspective if you need to go through a rehab anyway, why not push a little harder and see if you can play next year? If he can get close to normal, I would have to think he’ll be back.

  7. I’d be pretty surprised if Uggla would make it through to us on waivers.

    Manny, on the other hand…

  8. If Beinfest won’t trade Cody freakin’ Ross, I doubt he wants to get rid of Uggla.

    We won’t have any leverage, unfortunately, and might have to overpay if we do make a move. Which sucks, considering how pitiful the returns were on some guys moved at the deadline (not third basemen, but still).

  9. I think he’ll want to/try to come back. But that doesn’t mean his body will let him, or that he’ll be able to perform at Major League levels. There’s at least a reasonable chance that he won’t ever be in playing shape again.

  10. I’m on board the Manny train. It’d be nice to replace one of the better hitters in the game’s history with one of the best hitters in the game’s history. In the line up, that is.

  11. 5 Prado
    4 Infante
    9 Heyward
    7 Manny
    2 McCann
    3 Glaus
    6 AAG
    8 Ankiel


    edit: All kidding aside, Manny looked horrible when we were out in LA. Does he have anything left? Is this a serious suggestion?

  12. I think Infante is probably the answer. If somebody big makes it through to us on waivers, I’d do a deal, but the likelihood is it’s not going to happen. I could see us doing a waiver deal for another bat off the bench, replacing Infante’s old role, effectively.

  13. I was maybe putting more faith in Chipper’s resurgence than I should, but replacing him with Infante makes a Punch and Judy team even more like a Punch and Judy team.

    It feels like were are going to need five singles in a row to score one run.

    Is there a first-place Braves team in recent memory with such an anemic slugging percentage? I haven’t even looked it up. I just assume our slugging percentage is relatively anemic.

  14. Chipper~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    I know Maddux, Glavine. However I didn’t watch them too much because they left the Braves when I had watched games almost everyday. Definitely Chipper was my first addiction. He was my prince charming when was on the mound. The news is sky is falling to me.

  15. Hmm, bad news. Here are my thoughts (no trade necessary):

    B-Mac – C
    Free Freeman – 1B
    All Star Omar/Prado – 2B
    AAG – SS
    Prado/Conrad – 3B
    Hinske/Matty D. – LF
    Melky (full time) – CF
    Heyward – RF

    Conrad to 3B and Prado to 2B when we face LH starters or if we need Infante to fill in due to injury or rest days.

    Matty D in LF against LH starters or as defensive replacement.

    Glaus/Ross (PH) and Glaus is still available as 1B if Freeman doesn’t hit a lick. The rest of the bench as filler.

  16. So, what is the lineup for the next week until Prado returns?

    2b Infante
    3b Conrad
    RF Heyward
    C McCann
    1b Glaus
    LF Hinske/Diaz
    SS AAG
    CF Ankiel/Melky

    Or would Bobby bat AAG 2nd and Conrad 7th?

  17. @25 Our .401 SLG is 18th in MLB. But over the last month we’re 10th at .422. Overall we’re also 4th in ERA, 3rd in WHIP. I’m no Braves historian, but that combination of good pitching and mediocre offense sounds like a lot of our old first place teams.

  18. 29—Depends on the pitcher. AGony will hit higher in the order against lefties.

    26—If we’re getting insurance money for Chipper, he’d definitely be worth the money. I don’t really disagree about the likelihood of getting him, but he’d be an ideal acquisition, IMO. Only have him for the rest of this year, and because he’s so expensive, he shouldn’t cost much at all in the way of prospects. And, of course, he’s one of the greatest right-handed hitters of all time.

  19. An idea: Pedro Feliz would really suck for hitting but he can play good defense.

    Nah, I think I’d rather have Infante/Conrad.

  20. Manny, Chipper, and Thome should all call it a career, along with Wags. They have done enough.

    @15 Rehabbing to just be normal is extremely different than rehabbing to play ball again. Rehab in itself is absolutely ZERO fun and very painful, I can only imagine what rehabbing to play ball again must be like.

  21. The bigger question is what the hell do we do next year?

    Break the bank on Adrian “fractured testicle” Beltre?

  22. 26,
    What if Manny cleared waivers and the Dodgers agreed to trade him to the Braves for Luis Sumoza and they ate all but $1 million of his remaining contract? Then it would absolutely be worth the money. Of course that scenario isn’t going to happen, but I’d like to how you know whether or not a swap that benefits both parties can be agreed upon.

  23. @34

    Seems we should worry about that later.

    EDIT: I’m assuming that the Dodgers are not going to eat the majority of his salary. Why would they? It’s not that imperative that they dump Manny before the end of the season. If they’re gonna have to pay his salary anyway, seems like they’d keep him.

  24. Small consolation, but if Chipper is done, I’d just like to point out that it WAS a beautiful play he ended on.

  25. It’s really sad that Chipper couldn’t have a had a hang nail or a sore something that would keep him out for a week, but just when he was coming around with the bat….boom. Medlen, Prado, Chipper…did Yunel put a curse on the Braves? MEMO to BRAVES: PLS ADVISE MCCANN TO NOT BLOCK THE PLATE AT ALL. Just let them score at this point, his bat is irreplaceable.

  26. insurance money will pay the rest of chipper’s salary, right? if chipper retires, the braves have to consider aramis ramirez, a buy low candidate for sure. he’s turning it around since coming off the dl.

  27. DOB clarifies: doctor never said “tear” only “badly stretched, needs surgery”. That could be good news; it might mean “you’re going to need an operation, but you can try to play through with a brace for now”.

  28. Hinske has about as much buisness playing third as does my 83 year old grandfather.

    We are going to have to get a bat.

  29. Against righties:

    Prado – 3B
    Infante – 2B
    Heyward – RF
    Manny – LF
    McCann – C
    Hinske – 1B
    Melky – CF
    AGony – SS

    Against lefties:

    Prado – 3B
    Infante – 2B
    Heyward – CF/RF
    Manny – LF
    McCann – C
    Diaz – RF/CF
    Glaus – 1B
    AGony – SS

  30. So, what does this do to the Braves’ chances to

    (a) win the division

    (b) make the playoffs

    (c) go far in the playoffs

    A few weeks ago I would have said it wouldn’t make that much difference the way Chipper was hitting. But, now, it seems that it significantly affects a and c and, at least marginally affects b.

  31. @30 Thanks. Obviously, McGriff, Lopez, Chipper at his best. We’ve had much better slugging teams, but you’re right about the very recent past. It’s been a while since we’ve had a monster bat in the line-up and certainly a while since we’ve had more than one.

    Fuck Jose Canseco. I miss steroids.

  32. I wouldn’t discount the fact that their ownership is in the middle of a nasty divorce and might jump at the chance to save some money. Perhaps they’d be willing to eat $20 million to save $6.5 million or something. Not saying it’s likely, but it’s not impossible for the financial end to match up favorably.

    By the way, they’re going to be paying him $25 million over the next three years ($8.33 million annually from 2011-2013), anyway. He’s only owed ~$2.5 1.5 million for the rest of 2010.

  33. Can Hinske still play 3B? Ugg.

    A move is necessary, but I think it’ll be more about replacing Infante (who will be getting near-constant PT now) than trying to replace Chipper.

    FWIW, I think he’ll be back next year.

  34. Only third baseman we have who can hit lefties is Prado…who happens to be our second baseman.

    Aramis Ramirez has an exorbitant player option for next year, I think. And probably has 10 and 5 rights?

  35. Prado and Conrad both play 3B and hit well enough obviously. If Wren’s thinking trade, I hope it’s more for an outfield bat to replace Chipper in the order, not for a 3B per se.

    EDIT: Or maybe we can get Oswalt.

  36. Manny Ramirez’ salary for 2010
    2010 38 Los Angeles Dodgers $18,695,006
    Has played 61 games this year and has all of 8 home runs. I know you guys are dreamers but this is more like a hallucination.

    I had started resigning myself to following the Braves without Chipper. I sure hope he rehabs and comes back next year. I’m beyond bummed. Mourning is more like it.

  37. Assuming Prado comes back doing what he was doing before, slotting him into third and Infante into second really doesn’t create all that big of a lineup problem for us. Maybe a slight one, but I don’t think it’s as big as everyone is worrying about. Now, our lineup will suck this weekend, but there’s not much that can be done about that.

  38. Well, we can’t get by with the line up we have now.

    Maybe this motivates our team and we go on a run.

  39. Ugh! I’ve got an empty feeling in my stomach. I knew this was coming when I saw Chipper writhing in pain Tuesday night. Man, this sucks!

  40. I agree with other posters, if Prado comes back as Prado, he and Infante are fine in the infield with Conrad coming off the bench. The outfield and 1st base are more immediate concerns. Even if Glaus gets hot now, September and October(hopefully) are still on the horizon. Ankiel, well it was a nice try.

  41. 57,
    That salary is incorrect. I assume you’ve gotten it off of a salary database like ESPN or USA Today. They all have their issues, usually you get a different number from them all.

    At any rate, according to Cot’s he’s owed a $5 million base salary in 2010 with a $5 million deferred payment from his 2009 salary (which was paid on June 30, 2010), plus $8.33 million on June 30 of 2011, 2012, and 2013. So, for the rest of 2010, he’s only owed the pro-rated portion of his base salary, meaning he has about $1.5 million coming to him for the rest of the year.

  42. I’ve got two tickets to Sunday’s game (8/15/2010, 1:35 PM) that I can’t use. 414R (upper box), Row 11, Seats 1 & 2. They’re complimentary tickets I won at Home Depot. If you would like them (and plan to use them), send me an email at speele [@] clemson [.] edu. I’ll take the first person who gets an email to me.

  43. I dont like the idea of playing conrad more. He has come up big so far because teams haven’t had a chance to see him regularly and find his holes. Having him off the bench will be a HUGE asset down the stretch.

  44. @65 But why then wouldn’t the Dodgers keep him? I mean, if he’s so cheap then they have little, monetarily speaking, to lose. Don’t forget that they were buyers at the deadline.

  45. Mac, Wasn’t this almost to the exact day in August that Horner got hurt in ’83 killing our playoff chances?

  46. It’ll be Conrad at 3rd until Prado comes back. That’s the best we can do right now.

    Heyward hitting 3rd is cool, even knowing that McCann hitting 4th could create some LOOGY problems. I’m just not too comfy with Glaus up in the order these days.

    I’d like to think that The Beast Is Back, but reality tells me that the former Beast probably needs a motorized wheelchair.

  47. In all likelihood, notwithstanding a huge upgrade through waivers, the Braves will simply go down in a gradual decline. Management will blame it on the injury, but many here knew already that the team was probably not going to beat the Rays, Yankees, or Red Sox (when healthy) as constituted. Now that probability is a certainty. So be it. Whatever they do, I sincerely hope that we don’t sell the farm for a temporary band-aid that won’t put us over the top.

  48. FWIW, most out here don’t expect Manny to return from whatever injury he has now to play for the Dodgers this season. He seems pretty content to sail into free agency with his .317/.409/.515 line and try to land one more decent contract as a DH somewhere. They don’t want to risk Manny coming back and not hitting and screwing up the market for him next season.

    Would it be reasonable/possible for Chipper to just hang around as a pinch hitter for the rest of the year? Six months recovery time has him ready by January which doesn’t really do anybody any good. He’d be a useful weapon (y’know, assuming he could stand up and swing a bat), especially when rosters expand and you could easily pinch run for him without crippling the bench.

  49. BTW, the Braves were 64-40 in games Horner played, 24-34 when he didn’t. They were 5 1/2 up when he went down, a game back two weeks later. I don’t drink, but I’m thinking of starting.

  50. Sam from last thread:

    And for the record, I value the “he was great in the post-season” about as much as I value “Jack Morris won more games in the ’80s than anyone else!” Which is to say, I don’t.

    Why not?

  51. “I don’t drink, but I’m thinking of starting.”

    Just think: Hanson, Jurrjens, Teheran, Medlen, Minor, Delgado, Vizcaino… Heyward, McCann, Prado, Freeman…

    The future remains bright. Don’t drink.

  52. I was in my second year of marriage (still going strong at 29) when Horner got hurt in ’83. Around Labor Day I was in a deep funk because of the Braves (a Len Barker start on a Sunday in LA would be the lowpoint), when my wife said she understood how I felt, I knew I’d married the right woman!

  53. 74 — The playoffs are more or less a crapshoot (if we can hold on). The World Champion 2006 Cardinals weren’t much better than the 2006 Braves.

  54. Peter, you and I both know that the Braves are on the hook for the ~8.33 mil 2011, 2012 and 2013 if they acquire him. No way. I know that I am too much of a realist for most of you. Drives all the women in my life (wife and 3 daughters) crazy.

  55. Maybe someone has offered this hypothesis, but if the offense really goes into the tank I’m not sure that won’t drag our pitching down a bit.

    I’d imagine it’s really wearying psychologically knowing you have to go out and not give up more than a run every single time. We’re likely to break the rotations spirits in the stretch run, they start pressing, and then sink down to the mean a bit more.

    I’ll file this away under the “I wish I understood Regression Analysis” category in my brain, but I’d love to see a study isolating a bad offenses effect on good pitching. I wonder what the best good pitching to crappy offense differential is in baseball history. Whether one eventually has some leveling effect on the other.

    Come on JC! Drop whatever you’re doing and figure this out. I’m curious and have a piss poor mathematics education. It’s a terrible disability.

  56. Yeah, the Braves aren’t getting Manny.

    The season’s not over, folks. The Braves still have some on-base threats in McCann, Prado, Heyward, and Infante. The pitching staff seems to be improving as the season goes on, too.

  57. Post-steroids Manny: All the ego, half the power and range.

    No thanks.

    I’m as sad as anybody to see Chipper gone–at least for the season–but I don’t understand why everyone is conceding the postseason now that he’s hurt. We called the guy Zombie Chipper all year. He’s been solid as of late, but I think the 2010 Braves have succeeded in spite of Chipper more than they’ve succeeded because of him.

  58. “The playoffs are more or less a crapshoot (if we can hold on). The World Champion 2006 Cardinals weren’t much better than the 2006 Braves.”

    It was a crapshoot in 2006. That doesn’t mean much for this season, in which the best three teams in the AL are way, way better than any team was that year. I’ve seen this script before and I know how it ends.

    Regardless, the Braves are REALLY not good enough now. So it goes.

  59. @86 I agree. We all need to get use to the idea that we have to play with the pieces we have. I think even if we could pull off a deal it would be a peripheral one that wouldn’t have a huge impact.

  60. 81 — Today’s my 5th anniversary. I replaced my facebook status that declared my love for my wife with a lament about Chipper’s injury. I don’t think she’ll understand.

  61. Chipper post All-Star break

    .307 .391 .533 .924

    Chipper pre-ASB

    .252 .378 .393 .771

    The Zombie had risen.

  62. @99 Yeah, and what I see is an injury prone, past-his-prime, overpaid, terrible defensive outfielder who has attitude problems.

  63. What the F is wrong with you people? Manny is hitting .317/.409/.516/.925 152OPS+ for the year, and was destroying the ball in June (1.038) before his calf injury. He is about ready to come back, costs 6M, is definitely available, and RH. LA will definitely eat some of the contract if they think they are out of it (and they are). It’s precisely the move Atlanta should make. Christ, do you want to win a world series or a personality contest?

  64. 101 — I’m not saying the Braves don’t need Manny. I don’t think they can afford him (or will trade for him even if they somehow can).

  65. @101 Would it be the World Series of Personality Contests? If so I’d say toss-up, but if it’s just some regional Personality Contest then let’s try for the baseball one.

  66. 99 – for sure one of the greatest hitters of this generation.
    too expensive – see above
    too fragile – makes chipper look like cal ripken
    too old – 38 this year. Who the hell wants to pay for his age 39, 40 and 41 seasons?
    but yeah perusing B-R and looking at those gawdy stats can get a man to hallucinating.

  67. Im with spike.

    Go get Manny, Frank. Who cares if he can play left? We can sub your boy Melky out there in the 8th when we are up 6-2.

  68. -89 ‘I’m as sad as anybody to see Chipper gone–at least for the season–but I don’t understand why everyone is conceding the postseason now that he’s hurt. We called the guy Zombie Chipper all year. He’s been solid as of late, but I think the 2010 Braves have succeeded in spite of Chipper more than they’ve succeeded because of him.’
    ‘Chipper post All-Star break

    .307 .391 .533 .924

    Chipper pre-ASB

    .252 .378 .393 .771

    The Zombie had risen’

    I respectfully disagree sir. Even pre ASB Mr. Jones was a net contributor to the effort.

  69. too old – 38 this year. Who the hell wants to pay for his age 39, 40 and 41 seasons?

    Manny’s contract expires this year. That’s the best part.

  70. Every little thing that happens confirms for everyone that we’re just not good enough. This has been happening for the last month. And yet we’re still in first place. Have a little faith, for God’s sake.

  71. 108 – see Peter’s post #65 – information from Cot’s

    109 – I’m still on board. Pitching is 75% of the game so they say. And its what we do best.

    Just a little melacholy over the nature and severity of Chipper’s injury. To me he is Mr. ATLANTA Brave.

  72. Have a little faith, for God’s sake.

    Wish in one hand, crap in the other. See which one gets filled first. This team is desperate for another hitter. Getting it done with mirrors over the last two series does not change that.

  73. I am holding out hope of a knee-braced Chipper coming out and delivering a game-winning pinch hit homer in the post season. That would be the ultimate.

  74. @110 – good lord. His contract expires at the end of the year. Those deferred payments are the responsibility of the Dodgers, and regardless, they don’t buy his “age 39, 40 and 41” seasons.

  75. Manny is owed deferred money for the next three years. I assume if he were traded to the Braves they would be responsible for it.

  76. @110 See @87. I’m not sure we don’t start driving our pitchers insane with our offense. The two halves of the game have to start having some gravitational effect on each other at some point.

  77. All results so far say that we are good enough and you’re just wrong. I’m not sure why you’d be waiting for your team to collapse, anyway. Seems kind of depressing to me.

    EDIT: @116, why can’t it gravitate the other way?

  78. @107, Fair enough, Johnny. A sub-par Chipper is still better than replacement level any day.

  79. @118, I agree. This team finds ways to win (Bizarre, baffling ways to win). I think we’ll be okay.

  80. @116, I have absolutely no idea of what you are trying to say. What does I’m not sure we don’t start driving our pitchers insane with our offense. even mean?. Jesus.

    @117, because unless you have a place for him on your roster, and a playoff shot why would you drop 6M or so on him? Most teams don’t have one, the other, or either.

  81. 114 – sure, I misunderstood. Of course you understand that a trade for Ramirez will never happen.

    I understand that and thus don’t engage in day dreaming about it.

  82. Well, if the monetary commitment is that low, then it would make sense, but you know it’s not going to happen. Bobby couldn’t even handle Yunel.

  83. If it’s true Bobby got Yunel out of town because of his attitude, I can imagine he will have a big say into whether Manny gets comes here in his(Bobby’s) final season.

  84. @115, I would not think that at all. It would certainly be negotiated during a trade, but deferred payments are a contract between the player and the organization. When a player is waived, he is due the remainder of his game checks from the claiming organization. I will concede that I am not 100% sure, but I am well over 90% sure this is the case.

  85. I would take getting to the World Series even having to play better teams. Even if you lose, at least it’s the World Series.

    I do think this is a resilient team and they won’t collapse the way the ’83 team did. For one thing, the pitching is much, much better. But it makes it more difficult to hold off the Phillies. I think they will need 91-92 wins to make the playoffs for sure.

    I don’t see any waiver deal that would be worth making. As people have noted, Manny is really a shadow of his former self. It’s one thing to put up with him when he’s a great hitter, another thing when he is just a good hitter.

  86. @123, Bobby has handled notoriously thorny personalities before (that Sheffield guy comes to mind). And Manny, for whatever else he is, works his ass off. I am sure they’d be fine

  87. Well I called for Manny at the deadline, so I am dead on for this, I just worry it won’t happen b/c Cox wouldnt want to deal with a notorious problem child in his last year.

  88. @121 I’m just saying that there’s got to be some psychological effect on a pitching staff that knows it has to go out and allow only one run a game to give its team the chance to win. Guys are trying to pitch more finely, pressing in situations, nervous about making mistakes because they have no faith in the offense.

    I was suggesting that there’s some kind of relational curve where an offense can get so bad that it starts to wear down the pitching staff bringing its performance down closer to the mean. That an offense can get so crappy that it erodes the greatness of even a really talented pitching staff.

    So, we can’t rely on our pitching to save us if our offense really goes in the tank.

  89. What are the odds that the Phillies would block anything we try to do as far as trading?

  90. @131, I’m not defending anything. But listening to your psychological theories and intriguing understanding of facts to rebut a trade that hasn’t happened is amusing to me, and gives me something to write about. I’ve got all day – do continue.

  91. Apparently K-Rod was in a holding cell at Citi Field while his teammates were on the field this afternoon. If that’s not hilarious, I don’t know what is…

  92. 101 and 114—Amen!

    As for the comparison to Yunel…if Cruel Soybean had been OPSing .900, he’d still be here.

    Like Johnny, I know it’s not really happening. Unlike Johnny, I love daydreaming.

  93. ‘What the F is wrong with you people? Manny is hitting .317/.409/.516/.925 152OPS+ for the year, and was destroying the ball in June (1.038) before his calf injury. He is about ready to come back, costs 6M, is definitely available, and RH. LA will definitely eat some of the contract if they think they are out of it (and they are). ‘

    ‘intriguing understanding of facts’

    Who has the intruguing understanding of the facts? LA will definitely eat some of the contract? Your 90% sure that the Dodgers wouldn’t want to ‘trade’ some of the deferred money to the recipient? Hey I misread/misunderstood PWHjort’s post, I admit it. But all YOU are doing is engaging in Spike conjecture. Doesn’t make you the smartest guy on the blog.

  94. Francoeur’s quote about K-Rod assaulting his father-in-law in the stadium:

    “Maybe it’s a distraction we need,” Francoeur said. “Not to say it’s a good thing. But maybe at the end of the day we can turn it into a positive.”

    He’s so quotable.

  95. I asked to come in late to work tomorrow in anticipation of what I might consume tonight. In retrospect I probably should have just asked off completely. I expect to get belligerently drunk and make an ass of myself.

  96. I am not sure Manny is much better than Henske/Diaz and it is a big upgrade defensively, espically if you take into acount what he would cost in dollars and prospects

  97. @138, LA can “want to” get money back all they want. They have two choices and no leverage. Keep him and pay all of it, or trade him and get some salary relief.
    /edited for clarity

    I am not the smartest guy anywhere. But I do work in multi million dollar contracts for a living, and have a pretty good understanding of the law in these matters. His contract is with the Los Angeles Dodgers baseball club. The waiver rules apply to the salary he is owed for the balance of the season. Manny was owed 18m this year. 1/3 of that is 6m. The payment terms are not relevant to the discussion. Atlanta would owe Manny 6m for the year. So actually, now that I look at it like this, I think I am 100 percent sure.

  98. @139

    It’s things like that that make me want to knock him in the head and ask, “Is there anybody in there?”

  99. The Braves may not call anyone up. They might not disable Chipper until he gets the second opinion from Dr. Andrews (take it from me, second opinions can be great) and by then Prado would be ready. If they do call someone up for just a couple of days, it would probably be Hicks, though Timmons would be a better choice.

  100. @139 – Hah, that’s rich. I can see Jeffy’s post-playing career path already. He starts a motivational service where he allows players on struggling teams to beat him senseless in the dugout in order to create a positive distraction.

  101. My top candidates to replace Chipper’s roster spot (in order – after Prado returns)
    Willie Cabrera

    Cox’s order (most likely)
    Brandon Hicks
    Everyone else

  102. Manny > Diaz/Henski

    Manny with a broken leg > Diaz/Henski

    Who cares if he is a poor fielder? He isn’t anyworse than Melky and it is LEFT FIELD! I think he would more than make up for it at the plate.

  103. @142, this confuses me a bit. What if the contract involves a lump sum payment for, say, making the roster at the start of the season? Is that included in the recipient’s obligation? Like, if the player was paid $3 for making the roster and $3 salary for the year, then was traded to the Braves 2/3 of the way through the year, would the Braves have to pay $1 or $2?

    I think it’s $1. If so, how is deffered compensation different? What if it’s deferred from the last day of the season? What if it’s deferred from the first day of the season?

  104. Deferred compensation is payment for services already received. It’s like if you buy a used car from a guy who paid for new tires with a credit card. You aren’t liable for his credit card bill.

  105. We have to replace Chipper on the roster… How about a Glaus/Freeman 1B platoon, Infante at 2nd, AAG at SS, Prado at 3rd. Leaves us Conrad, Diory, and Hinske as infield depth. The batting order might actually be improved, since Glaus’s AB’s would be reduced, and Heyward moves to the three hole.

  106. Not assuming, just asking: if Chipper is done due to injury, i.e, he tries to rehab but cannot get his knee into playing shape, and if he retires as a result of this injury, do the Braves owe him the remainder of his contract?

    I can’t imagine that any company would have insured him concerning his injury history.

  107. Yeah, but how do we know for what services the deferred compensation is paying? What if it’s tied to a benchmark, like 600 PA?

    The CBA is very vague on this. It just says that deferred compensation is assigned to a season. All future years are assigned to the new club. All prior years are assigned to the old club. If no season is assigned specifically in the contract, then the deferred compensation is assigned equally to each season the contract covers.

    It’s not clear on what happens to the deferred compensation for a season in which the contract changes club assignment in the middle of that season. The salary not including incentives and deferred compensation is pro-rated, but I don’t know if that applies to deferred compensation.

    This is all academic, as it can be adjusted by a cash payment either way, but I am curious.

  108. Chipper’s injury history (since his original ACL tear) is not that bad from an insurance perspective. He’s missed a lot of individual games, but never been out for even a month at a time, from what I rememeber. I am guessing that the Braves will work something out with him.

  109. You know, for that matter, I don’t know who pays incentive payments on a traded contract. A certain number of PA, for example, might have been partially given by each team. Is the incentive pro-rated on the PA given by each team or the full length of the season, like the base salary?

    The CBA is not helpful. Why can’t baseball provide us with largely irrelevant contract minutia? I am disappointed as a fan.

  110. Infante 4
    Heyward 9
    Prado 5
    McCann 2
    Diaz/Hinske 7
    Routine GB Error @ SS 6
    “That sucking sound” in CF 8

    Prado is our best overall hitter, might as well hit him 3rd. Heyward is thriving in the 2 hole. Just keep things as they are I quess. If we bat Agag or Agog or E-gonzo any higher, his OBP will kill us.

    If the braves could just figure out how to fix the hole in CF they might be okay.

    Has Jose Guilen been claimed on waivers yet? How many bat boys would it take to help him get all his emotional baggage off the plane? How much crazy can the clubhouse stand? He doesn’t address 3b or CF, but he does address a gapping power hole in the OF allowing Diaz to rest J-hey vs. tough LHP and get Hinske more ABs at 1b. It also lengthens the bench. Prado makes us better defensively at 3b. Infante is good at 2b. E-Gon will make all the Ozzie Smith plays and boot routine throws and grounders.

    I am talking myself into this being okay. I think I’m crazy.

    Edit: He is not cheap either

  111. 155- Aramis Rameriez’s 2010 salary 16.75 mil.

    He would be a good fit, but he is expensive.

  112. jose guillen and his .743 ops, his francoeurian .313 obp, and his LOAFy outfield play? what does that fix?

  113. #142 -‘The payment terms are not relevant to the discussion. Atlanta would owe Manny 6m for the year. ‘

    THE reason the Braves won’t get Manny Ramirez.

    Sigh – you are right, too much time/energy arguing against a trade that won’t happen.

  114. Chipper did have an incentive of $.75 Million for reaching 135 and 140 games in this season, so there is that. I think the Braves budget based on those types of incentives being reached so maybe there’s an extra $1.5 mill to play with.

  115. @157 the braves would have to have confirmation of chipper’s retirement, which they won’t have.

    man, what a freakin’ nightmare this offseason is going to be with chipper’s injury and salary looming over every move.

  116. Oh and I know OF hasn’t been a strong point for us this year but we currently have 6 players on the roster who could get regular OF at bats (Hinske, Diaz, Heyward, Melky, Ankiel and Infante). There is NO chance the Braves are looking to trade for an OF.

  117. Allow me to present a perfectly reasonable argument on whether we should get Jose Guillen:


  118. Freddie Freeman played 5 games at third base as a 17-year old in rookie ball. He had 3 errors in 14 chances. Yikes, there goes that idea.

    Heyward’s knees indicate that centerfield would be a bad idea.

  119. I’ll second my own Uggla vote, but it will never happen.

    You know, if I had that Challenger to ride around in, this would hurt less.

  120. The Braves may be seeing the same approach issues that PWHjort has alluded to. May be the apparent reluctance to call him up.

  121. I don’t know. The angles are different in center, and he wouldn’t be in as much danger from the wall and the corner as he’s been in right. In some parks, center is dramatically larger than the other fields, but not in Atlanta.

  122. per dob: ” Wren will meet with Cox and Braves scouts Friday to discuss possible options, internally and externally.”

  123. @159 – If this organization let 6M stand between them and a hitter of Manny’s capability after losing one of the few power threats on the team for the rest of the year, they deserve to miss the playoffs.

    From what I understand, they haven’t put Manny through yet, as he is still on the DL

  124. @176 – Very nice piece. Maybe a little too much obituary (**sigh**), but a very nice piece.

  125. Thanks, Mac and Jeff! Obviously, I hope it isn’t an obituary. But whether or not he puts on his cleats again, we can safely say that the story of his career is almost entirely behind him.

    As for me, I get to say I got to see one of the best ever.

  126. Not to trample all over Chipper’s career and what he’s done for the Braves, but I doubt this ends his career, and my reason why sounds shady, but I don’t consider it so:

    When he was talking retirement, and had that meeting to discuss it with the club, that was about the guaranteed money he was owed, and how much he was going to “leave on the table” by retiring, and how much he was going to get paid to ride off in to the sunset. He’s guaranteed 13 million next year, and 13 million the year after that. He can walk away and give back 26 million, he can stay on until he’s embarrassing himself, and force the team to cut him, and get all 26 million. Neither side wants that. So he went to them to discuss how much he’d get paid if he made it easier for everyone.

    This injury greatly reduces his leverage in those discussions.

    I think he tries to strap it on again next year, get paid for 2011, and probably just leave the 2012 cash on the table, no settlement.

    And, getting in to rare air as far as my optimism goes, they often say about older pitchers when they go in for Tommy John surgery, the surgery is great for the elbow, but the year off does wonders for the rest of their bodies. Maybe Chipper comes back with happier hips, hammy’s, abdominals and feet..

  127. This injury greatly reduces his leverage in those discussions.

    jj, respectfully, how is this so? The team is still contracted to him for the full amount. All Chipper need do is show up. The injury hasn’t changed that.

  128. Spike,

    Because the part about neither side wanting him to show up and embarrass himself just to get the money still stands.

    The way I see it, the talks were based on that premise. We have to pay you 26 million dollars, but we don’t want a broken-down, no-good version of you for that price. You want to get paid 26 million dollars, but you don’t want to go out on the field a broken-down, no-good version of you.

    In my uneducated opinion, the team can now call his bluff. I don’t think Chipper has it in him to just keep showing up and get paid. The fact that he engaged the team in those discussions tells me that.

    I don’t think showing up and sucking is an option for Chipper. Either he files the retirement papers and doesn’t get paid, or he rehabs hard and plays. I don’t think the team settles with him anymore. I think they call his bluff.

  129. @181, but Chipper won a World Series. Played well in it, too. This isn’t a Ewing/Tiki/Payton/Mattingly thing.

  130. ermoore at 181,

    As in the team plays better without the purported superstar? With the snide implication (I think as intended by “creator” Bill Simmons) that something the superstar did in his performance or attitude made everyone else worse?

    90% sure on this. From Chipper’s Little League days, through high school, through minor leagues, in the Major Leagues for 11 seasons, until 2006, he had NEVER played on a team that did not finish first in its division, league, region, whatever. I don’t think he is the kind of player you get better by not playing.

  131. Chipper’s .900+ OPS since like June indicates that losing him will most definitely hurt this team.

    Re: Heyward in CF- while I don’t think it’s a good long-term thing for him, having him play innings in CF for this season and maybe a little bit next year wouldn’t be a big deal. My opinion is the reason he’s been penciled in as a RF guys is as much because of his build and cannon arm as anything else. When he loses a step (which a lot of people do as they fill out; I’m talking between the ages of 20-25, not “getting old”), he’ll probably be better off staying in RF, but for now, I think he could handle it without too much of a drop-off, especially over the Ankiel’s and Melky’s of the world.

    So I guess I say, if you can get a decent bat in the OF, get it done.

  132. Chipper doesn’t have to show up and suck to get the money. He could mirror Hampton and stay in perpetual rehab until his contract is up.

    Not saying that’s how it’s going to go down, but he still has the pimp hand, I would think.

  133. Well that’s how you’d draw it up for the made-for-tv movie. I like it.

    /edit – I’d love to see Chipper show the Yankees his pimp hand in the bottom of the ninth in Game 7.

  134. My corner deli guy—a Braves fan/Clemson grad—has a sandwich called “The Chipper.” He was sad today.

    If we ever got to Game 7 (at The Ted) with the Yankees, I’d be more thrilled to avoid ever seeing the bottom of the 9th.

    But, The Season of Weird just got weirder, so… why not?

  135. @197 That’s very funny.

    Just saw the news on Chipper. Mac, it’s time to take off the doomed statement. May as well say we are done instead. Just feels like nothing has been good since the doomed statement was up.

    Definitely not blaming anything on you Mac, just feels like shit…which I guess everyone of us was when first learned the news.

  136. Dumbass Philths announcer discussing the Chipper injury said the Braves have had the fortune of being healthy all year. Apparently Prado, Jurrjens, Heyward & Medlen don’t count.

  137. Ignorance is bliss, I suppose. Seemed a bit odd considering our all-star 2B is currently on the DL.


  138. Spike

    I have to admit I didn’t realize Manny was doing so well. I retract my opposition. Not that this team would ever do it but go get him.

  139. Word to the wise, don’t stay at a Travelodge run by immigrants in the Cape Cod area unless you like fighting with Discover for illegitimate charges.

  140. So… I have a confession to make.

    Starting this season, my wallpaper was Jason Heyward. After he got injured, I replaced the wallpaper with Prado. After he got injured, I replaced it with Chipper. And now that he’s injured…

    I’m changing it to a picture of Roy Halladay right now.

  141. @205, a world of yes. He fills a need and has one fewer year on his huge contract. Mets would never go for it.

  142. @210 I agree. We would love it but the Mets will not fall for it.

    @208 Please desert. Anyone but Braves player would be great!!!

  143. “Mets would never go for it” – HA, well they did go after Wren’s brilliant Francoeur idea. They also offered ridiculous deals to Bay, Castillo, and KRod

  144. After seeing the 9-5 score above, I couldn’t help but laugh at the Phillies’ website. From the headline and quote below it looked like Blanton had a great game until the 6th. In reality he gave up 4 runs in his first 5 innings.

    “Blanton hands off to the Phillies’ bullpen
    At one point Joe Blanton retired nine straight Dodgers, but he exited after loading the bases in the sixth.”

    Btw, let’s hope the Dodgers’ pitching is this bad against us.

  145. whew – the Dodgers got out of it and ended Ibanez’s hit streak at 18. 9-6 going to the 9th.

  146. At least Danys Baez is now pitching for the Phillies. He has been a great pickup for the Phillies’, if you’re a Braves’ fan. I think I would rather have Chavez than him, and that’s saying a LOT.

  147. Braves will probably get shutout every game by the Dodgers with the way they’re pitching tonight.

  148. If you were a Discover credit agent, would you understand why I want my $185.55 back? ” rel=”nofollow”>See this.

  149. sdp, avoid online hotel booking sites at all costs. They will overcharge, phantom charge and insist you checked out on Monday even when you checked out on Sunday every time.

    This is disgusting. The baseball gods hate us.

  150. Error by Blake. 9-7 Dodgers, bases still loaded, still no one out.

    Edit: Dear God, did we trade AGony to LA while I wasn’t looking?

  151. Tomorrow’s post is entitled “I Hate The Dodgers”. I just want you to know, I have ALWAYS hated the Dodgers. This would add fuel to the fire, but it’s like dropping a load of firewood into the Sun.

  152. What a choke job by the Dodgers. Going to be a long flight to Atlanta. They should make Broxton ride on the wing.

  153. From the Royals’ usual loss to the Yankees:


    Bummer. By the way, I rooted for the Yankees when they used to play the Dodgers in the World Series. That should give you some idea. HATE.

  154. @247: How would Cyborg Hanson Tommy write that?


  155. What a terrible day. Good thing the Braves didn’t play, nothing good could have happened on a day like this.

  156. Also, I don’t terribly mind the Phillies winning. I’d like to see them win 100 games, finish second to the Braves and lose in a one game playoff to the Reds or Giants for the wild card.

  157. In his comments about the injury today, Wren ruled out moving Glaus to 3rd because of the whole mobility thing. So that’s out of the equation for sure. (thankfully)

  158. Trade, trade, trade. 200 out of 210 posts here demand a trade of some kind. Boys, you CANNOT simply trade a player right now, can you? He would have to clear wavers first, and which useful player would do so??? Uggla? Marte? Lowell? Kemp? All of this is whishful thinking, which is understandable on a day like this, but essentially nonsense.

    Let’s get real: We are stuck with what we have. If all goes well with Prado, we’ll have about a week to bridge until he returns. That means Brooksie will be our 3b at least for the Dodgers series. After that, it’ll be Prado with Infante at 2b or vice versa. Depleted bench and all, IF nothing else happens (BIG if), we can survive this. Great pitching and mediocre hitting have taken us…lemme check…. to the playoffs 13 out of 14 times during the run.

    It will all be in vain of course, since the Phillies will make it too, probably ahead of the Braves, and I just don’t see how we would have a chance against them. Much better hitting AND better pitching with Oswalt/Halladay/Hamels.

  159. Tom at 259,

    Aramis Ramirez certainly could have cleared waivers. Even Beltran. The problem is that if they have cleared waivers, that means nobody was willing to take the contract for the value of the player. Meaning, it is a salary overpay.

    So, to complete a trade that would be useful in a player sense, the Braves will have to take on some significant salary (maybe insurance and unreachable incentives?) and give up young assets in exchange for partial relief on the salary.

    Aramis has an option for next year. He might rather get out of it. Either way, if we could get him for 2/3 salary for two years and give up a good but not great young pitcher (Delgado?) or get him for this year and have an offer arb get picks situation, that would be good for the Cubs and Braves.

  160. What was Joe Torre thinking? Is the idea you leave the “closer” in the game regardless of what happens to let him blow the lead? Broxton has been sucking for a while now–he was lucky in the ASG. You can’t just let the guy blow up like that–granted there was an error behind him but he did not get one out.

  161. I’ve going to a LaGrange dealership today to scope out some different Challengers. It will keep my mind off of the impending DOOOOM. Wish me luck.

    The one in town has been put in the paper, but it’s still not at the price I want. Is it a good idea to call them, say I’ll pay x-amount for it, and let them stew on it?

  162. Bethany,

    That’s a typical strategy, to make an offer. I imagine they would probably take any reasonable offer given the current climate. But you have to decide what to do if they say no or come back with a counter (most likely). What are you actually willing to pay and are you prepared to walk away from the car?

    After last night, I guess I won’t complain about Billy Wagner any more. :) Papelbon has also been having problems.

  163. I was shocked that Torre left Broxton in as well. He clearly didn’t have it.

    I’m not sure if the offer I have in mind would be considered “reasonable”, at least, at this point in the year. I think they will sell for that when they even more desperate when the new models are coming on the lot.

  164. It can’t hurt to make an offer, so long as you know what the other dealers are asking for comparable cars (so you don’t offer too much). Let the dealer decide if they’ll accept or not. But don’t start out with your “best” offer. First, they won’t believe you and then you lose credibility if you start negotiating higher. Second, you need to leave yourself a little room to negotiate, since it’s a sign of good faith to give some if they do as well. Post pics when the car is yours.

  165. @259, 264, a player can clear waivers because his salary is too large. The team, in order to achieve some salary relief, would make a cash payment as part of the trade.

    Let’s say Manny is owed six million for the rest of the year. He might clear waivers, as it could easily be the case that no contending team would want to take on that salary. (The Phillies are already overextended, the Giants and Cardinals are already pushing $100 million, and the Reds and Padres don’t spend much on payroll.)

    Like the other contenders, the Braves might not be willing to pay $6 million dollars. They might, however, be willing to pay $4 million, so the Dodgers include $2 million in the deal. Manny clears waivers because no one wants to pay his salary, the Dodgers get $4 million of salary relief, and the Braves win the pennant. That’s the trade everybody wants, and it’s completely possible. In fact, it makes a whole lot of sense.

    The only trip up would be if the Cardinals, Giants, or Reds have the money to make a claim. Of course, by the time Manny comes off the DL, we could have higher priority than one or more of those teams.

  166. Is it definite that the Braves will not take on any more salary this year?

    “The only trip up would be if the Cardinals, Giants, or Reds have the money to make a claim. Of course, by the time Manny comes off the DL, we could have higher priority than one or more of those teams.”

    I certainly hope not. If it’s true, it might not be worth doing anyway.

  167. Showing my ignorance: doesn’t everyone involved in the deal have to clear waivers? Are you allowed to trade prospects if they don’t clear waivers?

  168. Weird one from espn stats and info..Chipper’s bill james career offensive winning percentage is higher than Arod’s.

  169. So if the Giants get Guillen from KC as is being reported, would that free up a trade for Torres or Burrell?

  170. @276,

    1. Giants wouldn’t waive Torres. Major League minimum, 5 more protected years?

    2. Torres would get claimed before he got to us.

    3. Burrell has been waived once. I THINK that means if the Giants waive him that claiming party is on the hook for Major League minimum only for life of contract. No way the Giants waive him with that deal. No way he gets all of the way ot us (Reds? somebody?)

  171. The ONLY people we can get from other teams are those that are overpaid based on their current value. Get it?

  172. #271 – Who knows? The evidence that the Braves won’t take on much payroll is circumstantial. Ankiel/Farnsworth instead of trying to get Ludwick, only whispers that they were serious about Willingham. But its not just the Braves, in this economy every team save the damn Yankees is watching every penney.

  173. There is no reason to think Beltran won’t get his timing back and start raking. If Beltran were in a different division I think there is a good chance that some such deal could get done. We’d probably have to kick in a few million for Lowe’s 2012 salary. And probably include one or two B- to C- prospects. But it would still be a great deal for us. We’d have a legit five tool CF for one year for virtually nothing given that we’d be subtracting most of Lowe’s salary. It would actually help the Mets too. Unlike us they have Angel Pagan, a legitimate CF replacement for Beltran, and amazingly Lowe would be a #3 starter on that team. But that deal won’t happen because Minaya won’t risk trading him in the division.

  174. Ok I know ya’ll are going to laugh at me but what I think they should do is offer Chipper the managers job for next year and just modify his salary with a ten year contract (he could still play). Also, I think that anybody who would even suggest that Manny Ramirez play for the Braves move to LA and become a Dodgers fan. I’m sorry but that really put me off from you guys. I just don’t have words…

  175. @273, but as lottery tickets go, you could do a lot worse, especially in a challenge trade of crappy contracts – but the Mets would never trade him to Atlanta. The chances of his doing well and making them look dumb(er) are too great.

  176. Again knowing it won’t happen but an exchange of Lowe + money + a minor league pitching prospect not named Teheran (amlppnnt?) for Beltran is more enticing than trading for an injured Ramirez.

    Dang now you have me fantasizing.

  177. This is a pretty big reason why you guys think every trade we make sucks. You convince yourself we’re going to get Beltran or Manny or Adam Dunn, and then we don’t and get someone lesser.

  178. a minor league pitching prospect not named teheran. kind of like tnstaapp

    so when someone suggests we trade lowe for albert pujols they can say to sweeten the deal we can throw in amlppnnt.

    I know, sorry as hell attempt at humor.

    #287 – I guess everyone is allowed to hallucinate.

  179. 281—I’d be all for getting him, but at least one of Beltran’s tools (speed), and possibly a second (range), has been compromised by the knee troubles.

    287—Excellent use of the straw man!

  180. 17% of mlbtraderumor readers think we’re going to trade for figgins. if we can get rid of some of our excess baggage (mclouth and kawakami) and pick up figgins, i’m all in. but if they’ll only take kawakami, i’m not on board.

  181. instead of calling up a guy that’s semi-useful, the braves decided to call up brandon hicks again.

  182. 292—If they’d take Kawakami or McLouth and throw in some money, I’d be in favor.

    293—Now, who’s the primary pinch-runner?

  183. #290
    “Here’s what we think of you, Mr. Champ Summers…”

    I remember watching that Padres brawl with my mom in Columbus. The TBS announcers kept mentioning that Summers was the toughest guy out there, an Army veteran. Nobody wants to get him started!

    But when Summers ran toward the Braves dugout, he was intercepted, then tackled by broken-wristed Bob Horner, Rick Camp and a drunk fan, plus he was bombed with a full beer at point-blank range.

    With a sticky Summers at the bottom of that smelly pile, my mom looked over to me and said, “Guess he’s not that tough.”

  184. I came here to say the same, two options

    KK for Chone and $$$


    KK and Nate for Chone

    Can Figgins play CF anymore. If not, where does he play next season if Chipper is back?

  185. 297—LF would be the only other option. I think he can “play” center at least as well as Melky or Ankiel have, though.

  186. Why do we want Figgins? Either we get a power bat or we get a decent backup infielder to let Infante plays everyday. Having Diory and Hicks on the bench at the same time is horrible.

  187. So exciting that we are potentially back in the trade market. I can’t wait to see what’s next. So far we have:

    .256/.320/.423, 6 errors (vs .315/.351/.461, 2 errors)
    0-1 16.88, 2.2 IP, 5 ER

    I figure we are two trades away, or maybe just one if it’s a really good one, from college football taking over Braves Journal.

  188. What about this Timmons guy? He’s hitting similar to Freeman in AAA and he plays 3B. Why can’t he have a shot?

    Granted, he’s 31 and probably SHOULD be raking at AAA, but still.. If nothing else he could be a second Brooks Conrad for the team.

  189. @300 $9MM in 2011, $9MM in 2012 and $8MM in 2013, and there’s a vesting option for 2014…even if we can unload KK AND Nate, I would have to think twice…what you said is nice, but not at that price. Trading for Figgins seems like doing just for the sake for doing something.

  190. @290, I recall the baseball fights when I was young were quite a bit more violent than what you get today. Actual punches were thrown, guys would square off one on one, sucker punching, the lot. Love Bob Watson figuring so prominently in that video.

  191. Robert, find another team to pull for then

    I root for the players, not for the idiot general manager. Thanks for the advice though.

  192. I really wish I could find a video of the fight against the Rockies where The Big Cat almost took that pitcher’s head off. That was probably a pretty solid brawl.

  193. @300, would you not agree that getting on base is not a problem for this team? I don’t see what Figgins brings to the table that Infante/Prado combo-pak doesn’t already offer at 2nd and 3rd. As an OF, he would be no better or worse than the humdrum collection of non-hitters we have already, and costs significantly more, and for a much longer time.

    Where, seriously, do you see him playing, and how do you see him as an improvement over the existing internal options?

  194. @306 Yes, our GM is such an idiot. The players are the reason why we are in first place. He has nothing to do with that.

  195. @309, exactly. Wren’s a pretty good GM. Look at our payroll, and look at our record. That’s with a tactically sketchy manager and a prior GM who traded away two future all-stars for 150 games of Teixeira right before he handed over the keys.

    He’s not perfect. You have the Lowe signing, the recent Escobar trade, and … I’m sure there’s something else he’s done wrong. However, you have the Jair trade and the bargain Vazquez signing (that netted us one of our best prospects) and a whole host of other good moves. Even this year, while he didn’t get great players with the Ankiel/Farnsworth trade, he got better players than he gave up.

  196. I’m with @308. Infante and Prado are All-Stars. Figgins did not even make the All-Star team. Argument over.

  197. 308—Well, OBP is more of an issue with Ankiel and AGony than it had been. Prado and Infante are of course good, but adding yet another to that mix is a good thing. (I mean, who knows when Prado comes back and how well he’ll hit?) Also, like I said, I think he can handle center. As I said at the trade deadline, that’s where I’d like to see him play.

    I know it would be a risk. It’d be one worth making, IMO, depending on the amount we’d actually have to pay him.

  198. #313 – He should think that.

    Good to see the wheels are still on the ‘I trust Frank’ bandwagon. It’s only a matter of time.

    I know I will be pre-cringed every time the ‘MLB News’ part of the ESPN ticker comes up for the next few weeks. I had hoped that was over on July 31.

  199. Timmons is an on base guy. In MANY years in the upper organization, the Braves have never brought him to MLB. I think the best you can hope from him is to be a “homeless man’s Wade Boggs,” (on base, no speed, fair fielding, not much or no power).

  200. @313–I bet he does, but it’d be a bad idea for the Braves unless the M’s take McOut too. Even then it’s probably still a bad idea b/c Figgins has been rotten this year. And re having him play CF–IIRC, he hasn’t played it since 2004.

  201. @313, I’ll bet he does. He probably also thinks they should trade Bradley for Pujols too. Interesting that he never really makes the case for why this would be a good move for the Braves other than “marginal wins that get you into the playoofs are huge”. There’s no discussion of where he would play here, or who he would displace. Further, with the injury to Chipper, their need for a guy like Figgins is less, not more. They need a middle of the order bat, not a “pesky speedster”.

    Also, I dislike his name, and would rather not root for him.

  202. Key quote –

    “Figgins is set to make $9 million in each of the next two years, $8 million in the final guaranteed year of the deal, and then there’s a vesting option for 2014 that becomes guaranteed if he gets 600 plate appearances the year prior. This is not an outrageous salary by any means – he’s essentially getting paid like a league average player.”

    Not around here they don’t.

  203. idiot GM….I cant believe the Braves hired a guy that was capable of putting together a 1st place team. Morons

  204. I don’t know why anyone wants Figgins. We have enough long contracts with older players. That would mean we’d be paying Lowe, Chipper and Figgins $37 million each of the next two years. The Pirates started the year with a $35 total payroll. The Padres started with $38 million total. We aren’t the Yankees. We can only absorb so many huge contracts with older players.

  205. Rosenthal tweeted that Inge was placed on waivers, claimed by someone and pulled back by the Tigers.

    Shanks mentioned Mark Reynolds as a possibility. I doubt he would clear waivers, though.

  206. I disagree. Figgins has had a down year but keep in mind that last year he was almost Ryan Zimmerman-productive at 3B. Yes, it was a contract year, but he is downright great in the field and had been a solid-to-very-good player for the two years prior. Also, I no longer think the Braves have no problem getting on base, not with Gonzalez and Ankiel in the lineup; and with Glaus slumping so badly; and with Chipper out for the year. Anyone who thinks this lineup is still an OBP machine is fooling themselves.

    Ultimately, Figgins can play CF and 3B. Those are not only the two biggest positions of need for this team this year but could well be for the next couple seasons as well.

  207. “Infante and Prado are All-Stars. Figgins did not even make the All-Star team. Argument over.”

    So… if Charlie Manuel didn’t idiotically pick Omar Infante over Joey Votto, Ryan Zimmerman, Carlos Gonzalez, Andres Torres, etc., then you’d be down with trading for Figgins? I don’t understand.

    Would you rather have Evan Meek or Arthur Rhodes than Roy Oswalt? Or Tommy Hanson?

  208. @328
    i thought we went over this already? manuel was told to pick a utility player. votto, zimmerman, gonzalez, and torres dont fit the bill.

  209. @315. Mac I could do an Ole Miss one if you’d want it. Just send it to the email address that we did two years ago? I’ll probably be mid week next week sometime before I could get it to you.

  210. Spike, uh, not to be Captain Obvious here, but Kenshin Kawakami isn’t quite Pujols in your analogy. He’s a guy with an ERA near 5.00 who’s currently in AAA because Bobby wouldn’t pitch him for a month. Right now, he’s basically a PTBNL who costs money. If we can flip that guy into Figgins + cash, I’d be willing to consider it.

  211. No kidding. The point is Figgins is owed a tremendous amount of cash, and is playing poorly. OF COURSE you’d like to trade him for a guy with a lower financial commitment that is actually useful.

    If we can flip that guy into Figgins + cash, I’d be willing to consider it.

    But I think Cameron’s premise is that it’s going to be the other way ’round – i.e. “If we can get Kawakami and some salary relief for Figgins, awesome!”

  212. Another weird Chipper thing.

    A poster On the DOB blog identifying him or her self as “bravos85” said somebody he knew went to college with a current Brave. That somebody heard that an oil company had just paid big money to Chipper just for right to formally explore by drilling a test well.

    It sounded hokey because the Lower Rio Grande Valley (where I understand the ranch to be) is just south of one of the biggest explored zones ever (Kleberg / King Ranch). But, that would be a weird twist, wouldn’t it?

  213. Re Figgins having a down year–true and he might bounce back a bit (apparently he’s been hot in the past two weeks or so). Even so, his career ops is only about 20 points more than Infante. For that small an upgrade, it’s not worth taking on the obligation of Figgins salary even if the M’s eat a chunk of it.

  214. Yeah, Cameron is operating under the impression that they could get KK and cash or a prospect for Figgins and all of Figgins’ remaining contract. Which would be a stupid move.

    I really like Dave’s analysis w/r/t 29 of the teams in MLB, but when he’s talking about the Mariners, I find him hilariously unobjective.

  215. last year he was almost Ryan Zimmerman-productive at 3B

    Two things – A; that was last year, and B: I don’t believe it. WAR has your back on this, 6.9 to 5.2 for Zim.

    Zim went .292/.364/.525/.888 OPS+ 133. There is just no way on God’s green earth that Figgins .298/.395/.393/.789 OPS+ 108 is worth 20% more than that. He had 42SB and 17CS.

  216. Well Spike you and I agree. No to Chone Figgins. I can’t understand why folks on this blog would want to acquire him.

    One year of Kenshin Kawakami at 6.5 or 4 years of Chone Figgins at 28? Figgins just isn’t that good.

    Wow Robert, you sure have let the Escobar trade stick in your craw. With an ~85 million dollar payroll, the Braves are a contender. Pretty good general managing in my book.

  217. @329 and 332

    Sigh. My point isn’t about the merits of the AS selection. I could care less about All Star games. My point was about the merits of the argument at hand: there are several good reasons to argue against the Braves’ acquisition of Figgins; saying one guy is an All Star and the other isn’t is not one of them.

    Ultimately, it’s pointless to argue about the merits of any trade without the rest of the context, i.e. financial considerations, the other players involved, etc. If the Braves eat the entire salary AND give up a prospect, obviously that would be bad. But if they give up only Kawakami and get back some cash, that could be good for both teams. We don’t know, and since the trade will probably not happen, we may never know.

  218. I can’t understand why folks on this blog would want to acquire him.

    Gosh, if only someone (or some-two or -three) had laid out the benefits of having Chone Figgins…

    If you disagree (as many do), OK, but I think it’s pretty obvious why some of us would want him.

    341—Adam, the AS thing is a joke. Based on a hilarious video.

  219. “WAR has your back on this, 6.9 to 5.2 for Zim”

    I hedged a bit: I said “almost” even though WAR suggested Figgins was better. Personally, I don’t believe it either. I love Zimmerman. My point was to highlight that we shouldn’t focus simply on Figgins’ season this year, because there are also three seasons immediately prior to this one that suggest he’s pretty good–at 3B, anyway. I’m not saying I want the Braves to unload anything of value, or even to acquire that contract for nothing (so to speak), but I do think the argument against Figgins is not cut and dry.

  220. @345, how likely is it that a guy repeats a career year at 33- 37? And we already have a fine 3B replacement in Prado. ATL purportedly hates Figgins’ defense at 2B, and there is zero chance of Seattle taking on one of our poor OFs. I just don’t see a fit for Chone, and really, he’s not the kind of offensive minded player this team needs right now (defensive struggles lately noted).

  221. @341

    “So… if Charlie Manuel didn’t idiotically pick Omar Infante over Joey Votto, Ryan Zimmerman, Carlos Gonzalez, Andres Torres, etc”

    i was challenging the “idiotically” part of that statement. call manuel an idiot for other reasons, not for the utility all-star pick.

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