San Francisco Giants vs. Atlanta Braves – Box Score – August 08, 2010 – ESPN.
Remarkably, the Braves put out one of the Sundayest of their Sunday lineups (Chipper, McCann and Heyward all on the bench, though Jason did come in for defense late) and yet they scored five runs and won the game anyway. Go figure. They did still manage to leave nine men on base, so some things don’t change.
Derek Lowe started the game looking like it wouldn’t have mattered if the 1927 Yankees were hitting for him, as four of the first seven Giants reached base, including a double, but somehow only one of them scored. A line drive with one out and a runner on second in the first looked like it would surely score a run, but AAG caught it. The Giants got a single and a double to start the second, making it 1-0, and then Gonzalez lost a pop fly in the sun (it was originally ruled an error, then changed to a single on the Prado Principle that if you completely screw up and don’t even touch the ball that should be an easy out, it’s a hit). But AAG came back and turned a nice double play to get out of the inning.
Brooks Conrad, batting sixth (see what I mean about the Sunday Lineup?) doubled down the third base line leading off the bottom of the inning, then Ross hit a homer to make it 2-1. Walks to Lowe and Infante and an infield single by Melky loaded the bases, and Gonzalez, hitting third (Sunday Lineup!) just missed a knockout blow, turning into a sac fly to score Lowe and make it 3-1.
Lowe, unusually after all that baserunning on a hot day, pitched much better after getting the lead, retiring nine of the next ten batters. Omar hit a solo homer with two out in the fourth to make it 4-1, then in the fifth four consecutive singles by Gonzalez, Diaz, Glaus, and Conrad plated one run, which is taking station-to-station baseball to extremes, I feel, and the Braves then left the bases loaded after having another chance to blow it open.
Lowe apparently cramped up in the sixth, after allowing a leadoff double then a run on a double-error (Glaus misplayed a grounder, which Infante then threw away trying to get the out, allowing the runner to score). Lowe got one out, then gave way to Moylan, who got the last two on three pitches. Moylan then allowed a solo homer to Braves-killer Travis Ishikawa leading off the seventh, and after a popup and a HBP gave way to Venters. Venters allowed a single, but then got a GIDP. Diaz singled, stole second, and went to third on a throwing error to start the seventh, then was typically stranded there after Glaus stood there like an idiot on a fastball down the middle of the plate for strike three, Conrad struck out swinging on a pitch about a foot outside in the dirt, and Ankiel popped up. Venters got the first two in the eighth easily anyway, then Bobby for some reason brought in Farnsworth to face Pat Burrell. Farnsworth got a strikeout, surprising the heck out of me.
Ross walked leading off the eighth, then the infamous pinch-bunt (Diory) got him to second. Infante popped out, but Melky (Melky!) singled him home to get the insurance run. Saito got the easy save situation this time, striking out the side around an Ishikawa double.
My barber says J.J. Putz will be our closer next year. Does Spike’s barber agree?
Wasn’t it 6 to 3?
nbd, but I think the first inning DP was nabbed by Infante and flipped to AAG to complete the DP.
his barber said something about Venters being our closer
Yeah, definitely 6-3.
@1, Spike has not required a much barbering in about 5 years. I suspect you mean Smitty.
I mistyped that. And I think the DP was 4-6, but the gamelog said 6-4 and I went with that.
When Martin comes back where do we play Omar Infante? I say lets play him until he turns into a pumpkin.
Just was playing with the Lineup Optimization tool on Baseball Musings.
Our best current lineup:
5.152 RPG
1. Chipper
2. McCann
3. Glaus
4. Hinske
5. Heyward
6. AAG
7. Ankiel
8. Pitcher
9. Infante
The Worst: 4.603 RPG
1. Pitcher
2. Glaus
3. Hinske
4. Infante
5. Ankiel
6. Chipper
7. Heyward
8. McCann
9. AAG
Concurring with Jeff M. from the previous thread.
The overuse of Venters has become absurd. Right now they are pitching him like he was a 40 year old that had said “this is it, use me up.”
Venters will be the Joe Charbonneau of pitchers. An impressive flash that everyone will forget. It is sad for his health and sad for the long term health of the franchise.
8—I’m with you. I’d be willing to see how he handles center for a few games.
This was Venters’ 51 appearance of the year. That’s not really that high; at least ten NL pitchers (including Moylan) have appeared more often. If he was 21 or 22, it would be one thing, but Venters is 25.
I’m willing to continue to use him as a utility player until we give Ankiel a bit more time. If Ankiel can hit like he originally did in the NL, then Infante can be really valuable off the bench. Ankiel, not so much.
Keeping in mind that starter workload and reliever workload are two different things, Venters worked 156 2/3 innings last year and 64 innings so far this year. Also, it’s not like he’s a kid — he’s 25 years old.
I think it’s a mistake to assume injury to the extent that you shake your head sadly at his current dominance in your certitude of what his future holds. We’re trying to win a pennant here.
Ankiel’s never really hit lefties well (at all), has he? And, arm aside, I’m not sure there’d be much of a defensive dropoff with Omar.
My barber says Johnny Venters is our closer next year have Saito pulls a Kolbb
Id still move Martin to 1B and keep Infante at 2B, Melky and Ankiel are producing more than Glaus right now
Farnsworth & return of Eric O’F will reduce load on Venters. If Farnsworth earns Cox’s confidence
Or, DL Glaus and call up Freeman in a platoon with Omar. Against lefties, put Omar at second, Prado at third, and Chipper at first.
Yes, I know that would never happen.
IMHO you pitch Jonny until his arm falls off. What a great high leverage pitcher he has been this season. Ride him while he is hot just like we did Mike Remlinger all those seasons.
Stu – yeah Infante in CF or Prado 1b and Omar at 2b.
Watching Ankiel play CF today. I change my mind. Not that he should have caught that ball by Ishikawa but , well lets just say that you kind of get spoiled watching Andruw Jones play CF.
The double play in the first was definately 4-6. Infante snared a line drive (that would have split the gap in RCF) and then threw back to Gonzalez. The throw nearly got past AAG into LF but he came off the bag to catch it, then stepped on again before Torres could get back.
The pop-up that dropped in front of AAG that was originally ruled E6 but then changed to a 1B was correctly called in the end. You don’t give errors on balls that get caught in high sun fields like that one.
our best lineup would include prado and infante in the 1 and 2 hole and i dont think it would really matter which one is in which spot. they’re both unconventional leadoff hitters and ideal #2 hitters.
if chipper retires, my 2011 lineup would still have infante as the starting shortstop, move prado to 3rd and trade for uggla (if he’s not signed to an extension). the upgrade to the 3b defense would offset the downgrade at ss. with the weak ss market, aag could be a hot commodity.
I just don’t see how you keep Infante’s bat on the bench. And for to go along with that, what do u do about Melky? He batting .271, better than any other OF. Venters has a 1.10 ERA? Wow….
@16 The Braves will not bring Saito back next season I am sure. The question is will the Braves pick up the option on Farnsworth.
@20 Or you move Hinske to 1B and put Omar in LF. This team is extremely flexible.
And you are right. We are all spoiled by Andruw much like how we are spoiled by Maddux/Glavine/Smoltz.
Lowe on the cramps: “It was disappointing because usually I have 66 pitches in the third [inning], not the sixth,” Lowe said. “This was a game I could have went a lot deeper.”
Ha. At least he knows.
@25 But somehow his body figured it was time for him to leave anyway.
Twitter convo today:
DOB: Toasty series finale vs. Giants on Family Day
Me: Is toasty the official reporter word for f@#$ing hot?
DOB (via DM): yep!
and it was F-ing hot… cheap seats… first 4 innings in the sun… roasted my ass (we went through the 10 gatorades and 12 waters we brought with us between the game and the drive home). Missed most of the 5th-8th doing the chasing kids thing, but my big kid sat and watched the whole game (and enjoyed it).
I did get to see the Ross HR and a couple nicely turned DPs though.
Next year I plan ahead and we go to games in April or May…
Mac@12 I am sure if Jonny Venters was 21 or 22, he couldn’t pitch brilliant like this. You know illness or bad luck does not involved in their ages. Just worried about preventing the bad luck from coming back as a former medical student though I had changed my subject.
I will call Jonny Ian from now on. kkkkkkkkkkkkk!!!!
@25
At least he’s man enough to admit it too. I didn’t realize Lowe had an ERA in the mid-4’s. I was thinking it was up near 5.
Speaking of which, I have a game I like to play called “Guess What The Score Is After Reading the Braves Journal Game Thread.” If I get home around 9 or 10, I’ll get on here, read the game thread, and then guess what the score is based on what the people are saying. Sometimes I’m close and sometimes I’m way off. Like today, after reading the first 70 or so posts, it looked like the sky was falling. I thought the Braves had to be losing 5-0 or something. I look at Gamecast, and it was 5-1. Whew.
I think we saw more from Gonzalez in this series than we did from Yunel the entire first half.
I’m sure we’ll hear about the errors. Yunel never made any.
@29
Haha, I’ve done that before.
Yunel who?
Re next year bullpen–I’m not sure they should bring Moylan back. His walk rate is bad and he is starting to give up homers. He is very good at getting grounders though.
Frank, I think we probably have to. We’re going to lose at least three guys from this year’s bullpen to free agency or retirement- Wagner, Saito, and Farnsworth. And despite the increased walk and HR rates, Moylan’s pitching is still well above average.
My only problem with Moylan is that he needs to change his intro music (TNT, AC/DC). He’s not really “dynamite” anymore.
#29
Rob,
Didn’t you get the memo? We’re doomed.
2 nice series wins at home has kind of stabilized the ship a bit. Leaving these runners at 3rd is a bit troubling, but I feel Glaus’s days are numbered so that eliminates any more statue jobs like he pulled today. I look for Prado/Hinske to most of the work there going forward with some Freeman starts in Sept.
One another thing…what is it about Rick Ankiel that i’m supposed to be impressed about?
sdp, I think he should change it to Dance Commander.
Hanan: Ankiel is, demonstrably, NOT Nate McLouth.
The Braves are probably hoping/expecting that Kimbrel will be able to contribute next season (actually, he’ll probably be the first call on Sept. 1) and they also have Marek and Beachy ready to join the pen.
Shameless!!!
Lowe: “Some times there is an advantage to pitching behind [Tim] Hudson. He goes seven or eight innings every night and I get the fresh bullpen the next day. Today was no different.”
@38 – He’s not Nate McLouth? Ankiel’s played pretty well over the last week.
@38
The way he wears his pants and the copious amounts of eye black?
@22 Prado over Chipper at 3B is NOT a defensive upgrade. It’s a wash at best.
Actually, Prado is a really good defensive third baseman, much better than he is at second, and his reactions are a lot faster than Chipper’s. Arm’s not as good, but it’s serviceable.
Over last 10 games Lowe has averaged 6 innings and 2.5 runs. Not great but respectable. Team is 3-7 with Lowe going 2-4 (2 shutout losses) and poor relief pitching and weak run support (3.7 rpg)
McLouth, by the way, is OPSing .775 in Gwinnett. We’re stuck with him in 2010.
If you can beat a hot team like the Giants with the junior varsity then its all good.
Prado 1b, Infante 2b.
Y’all know that Melky has been good for a while now, right? He shouldn’t be playing CF, ever but he has been playing pretty good since that horrific April.
I did not know Aubrey Huff could play right field.
@40 Maybe or maybe not. I think they will sign one vet to take the place of Saito. Venters will take over the closer role from Wag. So either Dunn or Kimbrel will take the role Venters is having now. Or they may trade Moylan if Wren deems Moylan to be too expensive to keep. There is also a chance that Wren may pick up Farnsworth’s option.
The question on Ankiel should be: Is he as bad as Melky? I don’t think so.
Freeman 2-5 with a couple RBI tonight. Beachy gave up 2 runs on 3 hits and a walk over 7 innings. He really came out of nowhere almost.
How is Venters not in the conversation for ROY? There is only one person in baseball with 40IP and a lower ERA and thats Mariano Rivera. IMO, he’s just as valuable if not more than Heyward right now
Chief is a classic example of why the internet is so pernicious at times. He hides behind a pseudonym to attack anyone that thinks difgerently. I can’t stand that. I suppose we are supposed to assume that Chief was a big time ballplayer. But how do we know?
I think we could move Moylan and EOF, arent they both entering their arb years?
arb 1 for EOF and arb 2 for Moylan
I don’t think we’ll see a bullpen with Kimbrel, Dunn, Marek, and Beachy–the thinking (rightly or wrongly) would be that more experience is necessary
btw, didn’t Beachy struggle until he was turned into a starter? If so, moving him back to the pen might not work out so well.
Im still more focused on this year.
@44 I assume you have not seen Prado playing 3B. He is absolutely fantastic playing there.
@54 I agree. The way Wren built this year’s bullpen, I have to believe Wren will sign at least one veteran as the setup man.
How were we able to get EOF on waivers from Seattle?
They were trying to sneak him through to clear roster space.
EOF?
Eric O’Flaherty
Chief is a single, middle-aged, androgynous high school athletic director and softball coach.
🙂
Chief understands baseball about as well as Jeff Francoeur, another guy who played past t-ball.
This Red Sox–Yankees game is absurd. It started at 8 o’clock.
SDP, it’s lasted just a whisker over three hours, which isn’t absurd. Don’t go all Joe West on us now.
It’s been said before, but I can’t remember ever having a deeper team than this. It looked like we were tanking the game w/o Chipper, McCann and Heyward, but the replacements (Conrad, Ross & Melky) went 6 for 12 with a HR and 4 RBI. Not a bad day’s work. Infante’s also been excellent for Prado.
Add our deep bench to a deep bullpen, if we make it to the playoffs, depth will be our biggest asset. Thinking about some of our bench players of the past (Corky, Norton, Langerhanns, Orr, Thorman, Fick, … – some were also starters at some point), our depth is pretty amazing this year.
I am just thinking…Wren may sign Adrian Beltre to replace Chipper…just because Wren has such good relationship with Boras now…
What about having Infante spell every infielder and the left fielder every week? That way he’ll plays five times and everyone gets a day off.
How are his +/- fielding metrics at the various positions? I never see anyone talk about these things, but they seem germane to any conversation about the lineup.
Jason Heyward can now legally drink beer!
Happy Birthday!
Jason, stay away from Melky.
I’d be surprised if the Red Sox don’t re-sign Beltre. They’ll have resources and certainly the need.
@70 Very true!
I’m not opposed to letting Conrad get the start at 3B last night, he’s done superb job as the #2/#3 3B…I like his pop and grittiness (Pete Orr reference)
Add our deep bench to a deep bullpen, if we make it to the playoffs, depth will be our biggest asset.
Since they slow it down to about three games a week, nothing is less important in the playoffs than depth.
Just had a look at the upcoming schedule, it should be a good chance to increase our lead. Dodgers play both us and the Phillies, but we miss Kershaw even in a 4 game series.
@72 You are absolutely correct. Depth is what will take us to the playoff, but it falls back to the number of talents in the playoff. I think our starting pitching and bullpen are well designed for playoff, but our offensive talents are a bit short.
jason might be out of the lineup with flu-like symptoms tomorrow.
@74 the offense isn’t so hot for the regular season either
Our offense isn’t the absolute best in baseball, but it’s been pretty good. We lead the entire NL in not getting out at the plate (OBP), and our power (SLG, ISO, whatever) is around middle of the pack. I’m pretty happy with this. I like it when players don’t make outs when at the plate, and there hasn’t been any team more successful at that in the NL this year.
The thing is, I don’t understand why people need to make personal attacks. Apparently, it makes some people feel better, especially when they can do it anonymously.
Power can make up for a lot of deficiencies, such as leaving runners on base. When you don’t have much power, leaving those runners on becomes more glaring. The Braves in the 90s had problems offensively but they won a lot of games–at least during the regular season–because they hit a lot of home runs.
I agree with Robert re starting pitching depth in the playoffs, but having a solid bench and bullpen is very important. When the Braves won in ’95, it was the one year they had a good bench and bullpen. Especially in the NL, when you are playing a lot of close games, you need to have guys on the bench that can contribute and the ability to go deep into the bullpen–if you don’t have Halladay, et. al. I think one of the reasons the Braves lost all those years was because JS scrimped on the bench and the bullpen so they lost a lot of close games because they didn’t have guys able to come off the bench and get big hits. Re the bullpen, having Venters, for example, able to come in and face Howard in a playoff game could be very important–if his arm doesn’t fall off first.
Lowe has become a solid fifth starter–the most expensive fifth starter in baseball history.
Playing Houston on the road scares me. Not sure if it makes a lot of sense having a rookie lefthander make his debut in Houston.
Re Chipper–he is starting to hit a little now. Does anyone think he might NOT retire?
OBP is good; scoring runs is even better. 6th in the NL in runs scored is ok–not great but not terrible.
Minor has a good match up for his debut–the stros are last in both obp and slg.
Chipper is hitting much better. I’d take him at his word – he’ll make his decision at the end of the season. I’d bet that if the team goes deep into the playoffs but doesn’t win the WS that he’ll have a hard time retiring this year.
67,
I agree that’s how Infante should be used. Go with Glaus/Hinske at 1B, Melky/Diaz in LF, Ankiel full time in center, and let Infante give everyone a break throughout the week.
I’m kind of tired of Hinske’s OF defense anyway.
Since they slow it down to about three games a week, nothing is less important in the playoffs than depth.
Wha? Starting pitching depth perhaps. Especially in the NL, bullpen and bench depth allows a much greater range of in-game tactical options. Playing every 3 days isn’t going to put a second lefty in your pen or a lefty-masher on your bench if you don’t have one to start with.
Well, I think the decision will be based on how he is playing. If his improvement continues, he might go another year; if he struggles, I don’t think he would hang around regardless of how the team does. The odd thing is, it doesn’t seem as if Chipper is having with the fast ball per se; he seems more off-balance than I remember on off-speed stuff. Of course, that could be a function of him needing to cheat for the fastball as loses bat speed and, therefore, being more susceptible to off-speed stuff.
since june 15th, when he came back from tweaking something, chipper has been a regular in the lineup and has been raking (.890 ops). if he can keep up that production, his end of season numbers will look pretty good for a 38 year old. he’s at a .797 ops right now.
Considering matchups, having genuine depth is never bad. Roll out a Hinske vs. a righty, Diaz vs. a lefty, etc.
But, looking at the post-season overall, having the tough bullpen is a bigger key, I think.
Re: next year’s bullpen
I can’t see Wren not adding in 1-2 proven veterans. And if things do work out this time around with Farnsworth, I wouldn’t be shocked if he stayed around. I agree with Mac that the expectation is Kimbrel will be a key part of the pen next year and I’ve been assuming for some time now that Venters will inherent the closer’s role. The kid has earned it.
One of the rare cases where we don’t have to panic in December & overpay for a “big name”. Johnny Venters is about to become a big name.
re: Infante
We have to figure out some way for Infante to stay in the lineup.
It’s just my opinion but if we’re not going to move Freddie Freeman up, then I would consider moving Prado to first and letting Infante start full time at 2nd. Though keeping in mind when we want to get Hinske in there, Hinske is at first, Prado at 2nd and Infante in left. My point is I want to start seeing Infante’s bat everyday in the lineup, I just don’t care if it’s at 1st, 2nd, ss, 3rd or left.
And I am fine w/ Hinske but yes, he should only play against righties.
The other bottomline here is enough is enough with Troy Glaus. We’re about to face Houston, one of the worst teams in the NL and they play in a big time hitters park. If Glaus can’t manage more than a hit or two in THIS series, then it has to finally be time to pull the plug for good and DFA him.
In the Braves case, their stength is their depth, ie, ability, as Ububba said to roll out a Diaz against righties or a Hinske against a righty. They really have no choice because they obviously don’t have stars out there.
I’m just hoping that if the Braves make the playoffs, Bobby doesn’t decide that Lowe should be in the rotation because “he knows how to win” and has experience. I would rather go with talent than experience.
Agree on the glausosaurus. I hope he starts swinging better because I sure do like him, but he has been stinking it up on the field.
Man, looking at what our rotating door of CFs has been doing sure makes me pine for the Andruw Jones glory days.
Agreed, Alex. This has to be the end of the line for Glaus.
Marc, why does Houston on the road scare you? They were one of the worst teams in the league BEFORE they traded two of their best players away. I know that they used to give us hell in the NLDS, but this team ain’t that team. I think it’s a great place to give Mike Minor his first start — sorta like starting Strasburg against the Pirates.
Ankiel has been playing really well in center. You won’t find me pining for Andruw Jones. Talk about a hitter who consistently ended rallies. Between him & Francouer, I am done with guys like that.
And no, Ankiel is not a long term answer in center. But Mac is right, he’s certainly a massive upgrade over McLouth (a racoon in center would be an upgrade over McOut) & he’s done OK at the plate. At least he doesn’t get out everytime in a crucial situation the way McOut did.
And that’s why, with just a 2 game lead on Philly, where every game truly matters, we’ve got to get Troy Gluas the hell out of this lineup. And whatever combo Bobby wants to use, hey, we have diverse players who can go to multiple positions – I just want to see Glaus gone. And as much as I am not a fan of Melky in general, he’s not hurting the lineup so much anymore, he’s at least OK at the plate now.
But Glaus has to go.
Never wanted Uggla, but I believe he has changed my mind.
Does anyone hit mistakes better than Uggla? (Dunn, maybe.)
Plus, Uggla looks like one of the few guys who could survive a fist fight with Farnsworth.
@78 – “Lowe has become a solid fifth starter–the most expensive fifth starter in baseball history.”
Jason Schmidt and Barry Zito would like a word with you.
I think we should try to get LaRoche again, honestly. The Arizona regime is clearly in breakup mode, Dipoto is clearly a man who won’t ask the moon, and we need him a lot more than they do. We could probably get him for a B- prospect.
I believe the most expensive fifth starter in baseball history is Daisuke Matsuzaka, as long as you count his posting fee.
@95 – Probably true…once you start converting Chan Ho Park’s Rangers contract, Darren Dreifort’s Dodgers contract, and Mike Hampton’s Rockies contract into present day dollar amounts, I think Lowe is easily outpaced for worst value.
Not that he hasn’t been a disappointment and his contract doesn’t hamstring the Braves, but it isn’t the worst pitcher contract ever, by a longshot.
“(a racoon in center would be an upgrade over McOut)”
Be careful. McOut has at least one defender around here. Someone jumped on me a few weeks ago when I made a similar comment.
Frank, anyone who wants to challenge me and defend Nate McOUT, I say BRING IT. There’s no defense for a useless tool like that. Just thank GOD he’s not in Atlanta anymore. I pray to never see him in Atlanta again, unless it’s in another team’s uniform.
(prediction: any day now, I smell a McOut to Royals deal). Dayton Moore is truly our bitch.
The LaRoche pickup idea occurred to me, as well.
All he’s ever done is rake for us in August and September.
I second the LaRoche pickup.
I was a LaRoche hater back in the day, but I have to admit after his performance last year during his return, I finally became a LaRoche fan. I was quite stunned this offseason when Wren chose to sign Glaus and let LaRoche go.
We can argue all we want about how good of a job or not Wren is doing, but I think we can ALL agree that replacing LaRoche with Glaus turned out to be a rather large mistake.
LaRoche is on a two-year deal, though.
And there is a clause in his contract that (if traded) his salary is 9.5M for 2011.
No way.
Andruw Jones was one of the best defensive center fielders in the HISTORY of baseball. Alex,you don’t think having him in CF (in his prime at least) would be better, regardless of his offense, than Melky Cabrera and Rick Ankiel? Apparently, you don’t think defense is important. And, yes, he was a streaky, inconsistent hitter but, at his best, he hit a lot of home runs, which is a hell of a lot more than these guys do.
I was never a huge Andruw fan until he left and I saw the dreque that’s been playing CF for the Braves since. You seem to have let his last year in Atlanta erase everything he did the first 10. I just find it stunning that you think Rick Ankiel is as good as Andruw Jones in CF. I think that makes you a minority of one.
My point about Houston is that, even though the Astros aren’t very good, I think they are much better at home and that joke of a porch in left field is a problem, even against a bad team, for a lefty making his first start. I hope I’m wrong.
we can ALL agree that replacing LaRoche with Glaus turned out to be a rather large mistake.
Only if you ignore the 10M salary difference and being stuck with the guy for 2011 to boot.
/and there is only 6 points of OPS+ between them.
There’s also the point that, at least until this year, LaRoche’s value was almost entirely in the second half of the season. It’s hard to imagine LaRoche having a May like Glaus had.
And the search for unanimity continues….
104- The Astros are hitting 251/ 307/ 384 at home per ESPN. The BA and OBP are last in the NL, and the SLG is ahead of only Pittsburgh. That’s not much better than their 244/ 304/ 344 road hitting, and they’ve actually scored 20 more runs on the road (222-202) in the same number of games.
Yeah, all of us definitely can’t agree on that.
Marc, you always disagree with everything I ever say, so I wouldn’t expect any different from you. It’s one of the reasons I grew weary speaking my mind in here just to have my opinion always shot down like its meaningless – but I digress.
Your point about Glaus’ May performance is laughable. C’mon. That’s the problem in a nutshell. We keep waiting and waiting for May to come back and it isn’t. April, June and July have sucked, so I am going to take a guess he aint coming back.
Our penny pinching ownership is part of the problem, isn’t it. And is anyone in here 100% certain that if we had come back to Adam with a 1 year deal, he wouldn’t have taken it? It was my understanding at the time that the Braves weren’t going to offer 2 years (fine with that since we knew Freeman might be ready soon) but that we NEVER came back with a 1 year offer – we simply skipped head and went after Glaus.
People can argue that point with me but if someone has the links from that time, I am willing to be proven wrong. But Adam wanted very much to stay in Atlanta & I am pretty certain Wren never even returned with even a 1 year offer.
I just find it stunning that you think Rick Ankiel is as good as Andruw Jones in CF
Alex R has never been able to get his arms around the value Andruw provided the team. (That’s really the nicest way I could think of saying it) Something about him smiling too much. It’s best not to dwell on it.
Ankiel breaking in two steps on the home run hit over his head yesterday was pretty interesting. There is really no scenario where he should be starting against a LHP when Melky is available.
#111
Ahh, I forgot it was “pile on Alex R day”. Didn’t get the memo. Yeah, I am just too effing stupid to appreciate Andruw Jones. Unreal.
Andruw’s Defense was never in question, until even that took a dip his last season in Atlanta. (even Mac pointed this out). But his offensive liabilities stung the Braves, over and over, multiple years. If everyone wants to whitewash just how bad Andruw became, that’s fine. To each their own.
And yeah, when someone strikes out with runners on, late, trailing in a late season game, and walks back to the dugout with that stupid smirk on his face, I have every right to complain.
I don’t know, Alex, I tend to think that the Braves could use a righthanded hitter who hits about .270 with 35 homers every year right about now, whatever position he played.
Alex,
I don’t disagree with everything you say (I agreed with you about Yunel)but your defensiveness doesn’t surprise me. You seem to dislike Andruw personally to the point where you are completely blinded to how good he was. Not a Hall of Famer, but a hell of a lot better than Rick Ankiel or anyone else that has played CF for the Braves since he left. And, yes, I don’t take seriously player critiques that involve not liking Melky Cabrera because he is an ex-Yankee with a fat face.
But his offensive liabilities stung the Braves, over and over, multiple years. If everyone wants to whitewash just how bad Andruw became, that’s fine.
But everyone can just click over to b-r.com, see that Andruw was good for 115 OPS+ or so every year with Gold Glove defense and wish we would be ‘stung’ with that kind of player again. Rick Ankiel has never had and will never have one offensive season as good as Andruw’s average season.
And so here I am dwelling on it. Can’t take my own advice.
Wow, didn’t expect my pining over AJ to create controversy. AR, please take a look at AJ’s batting stats 1998-2006 – the hey-days I was referring to. One OPS+ under 100, all others 113-136. One year with WAR under 3.6, all others 3.6-7.9. Compare that to Ankiel’s best year (by a mile) in 2008. AJ’s defense was also superb, as you acknowledge. Only in his last year with the Braves, when he was eating too many twinkies or whatever, did he really decline.
Marc,
Apparently you missed the part where I said his defense was never in question. I did add what Mac was the first to point out a few years ago (his words, I second him) that Andruw’s defense slipped. I can’t remember if it was just ONE season or two, but it wasn’t the same. Maybe because he couldn’t hit anymore and was focused on that, or because of his additional weight, the one part of his game that had always been better than everyone else, started not to be.
And I love you calling me defensive, even though you are always the first to criticize 99% of what I have to say. You go out of your way to do so.
I have no problems disagreeing with anyone in here and having a good discussion about it. But it’s not the case with you. I admit I was a lot less mature in the early years of Bravesjournal and had a lot of stupid fights with Stu and a few others. I was definitely partly to blame, no doubt.
But you learn and move on and hopefully disagreements can be an entertaining discussion. Personal attacks are untenable because all it does it piss people off and cause a lot of needless name calling.
Alex, the problem isn’t your right to complain. It’s that you seem to feel some sort of obligation.
Not piling on anyone, but …
1. I’m 65. I saw Willie, Duke and Mickey play centerfield. In my estimation, Andruw in his prime was the best defensive centerfielder to play the position since 1950, including the thre HOFers named.
2. Andruw could not carry their career bats and, as much as I loved him and miss him, should not be in the HOf. Regardless,
3. Andruw was the best centerfielder I ever saw.
Just one old man’s opinion, which ain’t worth much.
#116
Robert, nowhere am I saying Rick Ankiel is a great player. Ankiel is serviceable. He’s a very good defensive center fielder (though not nearly as good as Andruw was in his heyday, I would never argue w/ that) & when healthy, he’s an OK offensive player – not a star, not McLouth, either.
Are any of these statements unfair?
I guess I am wondering why this is an Andruw vs. Ankiel discussion? Andruw’s era is long over. We can only (as of today) compare Ankiel with the other CF options this year: McLouth, Melky and now departed, Blanco. Compariing with Andruw, what’s the point?
mravery,
Yes, I have every right to complain if it’s something worth complaining about. If we were having a discussion right now about Brian McCann, Omar Infante or someone else, nobody would be complaining? The Braves are in first place and we might make the Playoffs for the first time in 5 years….I am happy about this. I am a Braves fan, shocker I know.
But Marc started a pile on and I am going to defend myself, and attempt to do with a reasoned defense. Why can’t I disagree without me causing so many waves?
And if anyone chooses to read my comments, where am I disagreeing about Andruw’s defense, or his power #’s, at least in the earlier years.
But no one in here, not even the biggest Andruw lovers, can deny the man put on quite a bit of weight. I don’t care who you are, when you have extra body fat, you slow down. It’s not hard to figure out. Please, everyone go back and look at the 19 yr old Andruw from the 1996 world series and look at Andruw circa 2006. It’s rather stark.
Ankiel is an interesting piece to have, he brings some pop off the bench and can cover CF. He should be a platoon player as he’s pretty defenseless against lefties (.237/.278/.397 career). Even in his career year in ’08 he couldn’t really touch them (.224/.268/.448).
We should be running a double platoon in the outfield (Hinske/Diaz, Ankiel/Melky), although it looks like Ankiel has been anointed the everyday CF which is going to strip away a lot of his value.
Edit: Wow, just looking at stats I had no idea Andruw had over 400 HR. Andruw has more career homers than Dale Murphy. I never would have guessed that. I guess 400 career HR ain’t what it used to be.
Robert,
I agree.
The braves are still on the hook for 7.75M in McLouth for next year. That is a problem.
Would there be any thought to trying Infante in CF? I agree about Ankiel vs. lefties – useless. Since he is respectable against righties, he could still start most of the games in Center, but if Infante could be solid defensively…
#95 – y’all constantly disregard the money. LaRoche is too expensive. He was too expensive in the offseason. Thats why he is a Diamondback. Or what spike said at #105
#125 – I still think Ankiel and Melky are out producing Glaus and if that continues then the Braves should slide Prado to 1st and keep Infante at 2nd. Probably helps with overall team defense too
#126
Johnny, but I made one point earlier that nobody responded to – did Wren actually ever offer LaRoche a 1 year deal, after LaRoche initially requested a 2 year deal?
Not to even asking for a debate, more just, if anyone remembers, by all means, say so.
I bring this up because my memory from last December is that LaRoche wanted a 2 year deal, and Wren didn’t offer him any deal at that point. What I am wondering is if we had come back to LaRoche with a 1 year offer, he might have accepted it – but we’ll never know.
Alex, LaRoche made it pretty clear through the press that he wanted a multi year deal. If the man says something to the press if I am the Braves why waste his time and mine by offering for him to take a discount 1 year offer?
#126
I agree about Prado to first. And regarding a point someone made much earlier in the thread, the ideal top of the order would be Infante-Prado at 1-2. That would be an on machine.
I also wonder if Heyward’s pressing a little because of his homer drought. Believe me, Jason is still helping the team in many other ways and love me some Heyward, but considering what a hard nosed kid he is, I think he maybe pressing on the HR stuff.
I wonder if it wouldn’t relieve some pressure off Jason to flip him down to the 5 or 6 spot?
Playing Prado and Infante at the same time is interesting. Lotta scenarios.
Bottom line is: we need both their bats in there – especially with Glaus struggling.
Against RHP:
Prado – 1B
Jason – RF
Chipper – 3B
McCann – C
Infante – 2B
Hinske – LF
Gonzalez – SS
Ankiel – CF
Probably our best offensive lineup and not terrible defensively.
Against lefties? Do you play Glaus at all anymore?
Johnny,
He did. But I don’t remember him making such a stink in the press like being overly demanding. Nothing really wrong with Adam saying he “would like to get a 2 year deal”. And Adam’s personality (as we all know) is fairly quiet and inocuous. I don’t think a bridge was burned so badly with Adam saying he wants a 2 year deal and Wren saying we can offer one.
#131
Would the best case scenario be that vs. lefties, Prado plays 1st base, Infante 2nd base and the outfield is Melky-Diaz-Heyward.
Then, vs. righties, Hinske at 1st Base, Prado back to 2nd base, Infante to LF, Ankiel to CF, and Heyward.
What I would like to see is Omar Infante in the everyday lineup. The guy has more than earned it and proven to be as clutch as anyone on the team. I can live with 2 completely different lineups vs. righties and lefties, IF it means we’re getting Infante at bats every game.
And though it’s not consistent offensively, I’m fine with leaving the left side of the infield as is with Chipper and Gonzalez.
The danger of cream pies – Chris Coghlan http://www.fishstripes.com/2010/8/9/1613358/chris-coghlan-will-undergo-surgery
I was unaware that LaRoche’s contract for next year was so expensive. We can’t (and shouldn’t) under those circumstances.
Wren may have done so, but he probably should have offered Adam a one-year deal at a level the Braves could afford and see if he bit. I do remember LaRoche got nowhere near what his agent was putting out there as an asking price.
You know what I hate? Being in first place.
NOT!
[High-fives self.]
Alex,
I’m sorry if you think I’m piling on. But nowhere did I make a personal attack other than to say you are defensive and seemed to have a personal animus against Andruw. If you consider that a personal attack, then I’m sorry. Perhaps I should not have responded to you by name. But I simply couldn’t let your comparison of Jones to Ankiel go by.
Andruw obviously declined in his last year with the Braves. But he had hit 51 and 41 homers in the previous two years. It was clearly time for him to go; he was out of shape and so forth. But he was, for the vast part of his career, a far superior player to anyone the Braves have put in CF since. I saw Melky Cabrera in person last week trying to play CF and it was a pretty shocking exhibition. Maybe Ankiel is better.
My point was only that just because one has a right to complain, one needn’t feel obligated to exercise that right.
Let’s go Mike Minor!!
We should be running a double platoon in the outfield (Hinske/Diaz, Ankiel/Melky), although it looks like Ankiel has been anointed the everyday CF which is going to strip away a lot of his value.
I think I’m more in favor of a triple-platoon, involving Infante-Ankiel in CF, Diaz-Melky in LF, and Glaus-Hinske at 1B.
Ugh, Marc, fine on the apology, whatever, but UGH on the Akiel-Andruw comparison.
I’ve now posted 3 times already that Andruw’s defense, when he was in his prime, was the best in Baseball and Ankiel isn’t close. I AGREE WITH YOU.
But Andruw’s defense dipped in his final 2 years in Atlanta, likely somewhat related to his offensive struggles and his weight. These are facts.
Also, just because Ankiel isn’t Andruw defensively in center (and again, who is?), doesn’t mean he’s not a good center fielder – he is.
Please, I don’t mind us having a debate. But at least just see what I previously posted. If you had, you could at least acknowledge that I am not just out & out attacking Andruw on everything.
Here’s the way I see Rick Ankiel:
A very good (but not superstar) defensive center fielder, a solid hitter against righties, a non-entity against lefties. A guy who’s fine to have on a roster as a platoon player or hitting bottom of the order on a team with an awesome lineup.
He’s actually not a very good defensive center fielder. Mediocre at best, and that’s with me trusting some defensive metrics and ignoring others and my own eyes.
#140
Stu, you really are in favor of Glaus staying in the lineup against lefties? I basically agree with your platoons, except why not have Hinske and Prado platoon at first and leave Glaus out of the mix entirely?
mlbtraderumors
RT @Haudricourt: Brewers GM Doug Melvin told me another team claimed Edmonds on waivers but Reds had first dibs.
Has to be the Braves, right? can’t be the cards, as they’d have dibs over cincinnati. Has to be an NL team with a better record than the reds…
Edited: although i suppose it could be any AL team also, as no matter the record they would fall behind the Reds in the priority…but still…
#143
Ok, agree to disagree. In my small Atlanta sample size, I’ve been reasonably impressed by Ankiel’s D in center. I think loads better than McLouth.
144—Well, I would DL Glaus and he how he looks after a couple weeks off.
145—No way we claimed Edmonds, right? The last thing we need is another lefty outfielder.
146—What has impressed you? That’s shocking to me. I’ve been amazed at how horrific he’s been at judging fly balls.
At any rate, Prado probably won’t be ready to come off the DL when eligible anyway.
So Mets bloggers are finally coming to realize what we did so long ago:
http://baseballcrank.com/archives2/2010/08/baseball_french.php
Yes, the Reds acquired Jim Edmonds.
Just returned home from my trip to see much arguing over Andruw Jones. Interesting. Hate to hear about Prado, you know he must really be hurting.
I’m very excited to see Minor’s debut. Another sweep of the Astros would be just what the doctor ordered.
Let the Reds have Jim Edmonds. The last thing this team needs is a lefthanded hitting outfielder who’s years past his prime.
Sorry, Stu, I just don’t understand your hatred of Ankiel’s defense. He’s chased down a ton of balls that chunky Melky wouldn’t have been able to catch up to.
Using the Brewers and Edmonds as an example:
If team A claims Edmonds to block team B, the Brewers can say ok take him and team A HAS to take him? The Randy Myers scenario?
This is the way I understand it but I’ve been confused before.
152—Well, I never said anything about hatred, but I don’t think your assessment is accurate at all.
@153
That’s how I understand it.
The thing I didn’t understand before is that apparently everybody gets a chance to say yes or no to a player on waivers, and then after every team has had their shot to claim him, they then go back and deal with the teams in order of record, then league. I thought each team individually had to say yes or no in order, meaning only one team could claim a player at any given time, and then if it didn’t work out, he went back on waivers through the rest of the teams.
@152, Edmonds OPS+ 111 is better than every OF we have besides Hinske and Heyward. Not saying we need him (I liked him for the Hinske role pre-season), but he is a very useful player. Still.
Agreed with Spike at 157. Edmonds should have been our target last year and this year as a back up plan in center (where he is still not awful) and as a lefthanded platoon partner for Diaz. I do not think he helps us now.
Johnny at 153,
Add to your scenario: Or the waiving team says “we will withdraw him from waivers unless you give us ____”.
@149, never thought I’d say this, but that actually goes a bit far. Frenchy is a perfectly cromulent 4th OF and late inning defender if you are in a sac fly situation or something. Idon’t think he’s worth 4M for that skill set, but he definitely has value at the major league level.
I actually think the best thing for Francouer would be a lengthy stint in the minors. He has, in fact, shown a propensity toward improved plate discipline when he’s been forced to spend time working on it. I’d cut him and let him land somewhere with a AAA hitting coach who has the patience of Mother Teresa. If he turns temporary adjustments into habits, he might find his way back into a ML lineup.
@153 – correct.
basically, a team puts a player on waivers. One of two things happen: A.) he is claimed by one or more teams. B.) he is not claimed.
If a.) he is claimed by one or more teams, than the with the worst record (team in current league gets priority, so if we put someone on waivers, San Diego would have priority over Baltimore), then one of three things happen…
1.) the original team of the player can pull him back and nothing happens (the player cannot be traded until the day after the world series) no harm done
2.) the original team pull him back and has 48 hrs to work out a trade with the team that claimed him
3.) the original team can say “he’s all yours” for the waiver price of $20,000 and his entire contract (the randy myers scenario.)
If b.) occurs and the player is not claimed, nothing happens, except that the player is eligible to be traded to any team.
Alex,
I don’t disagree with respect to Andruw’s last year in Atlanta. He played his way out and, obviously, he has never been the same player. I guess where we disagree with respect to his overall career (and, I admit, I changed my mind about this)is that his hitting, while often frustrating, was generally a plus factor and that, coupled with his defense, made him a very valuable player. I haven’t seen Rick Ankiel play CF, but, after seeing Melky, I came to appreciate the significance of having top-flight defense out there, regardless of offense (unless the guy is Mickey Mantle). It seems to me the Braves have a solid pitching staff but they don’t strike everyone out; they have frequently been hurt by the defense.
It is nice to have a centerfielder who will throw the ball to the proper base or cutoff man, as the case may be.
AJ has hit .193 with 30 some HR in 3 years since leaving town. For big bucks.