Nate McLouth

Nate McLouth Statistics and History –

McLouth was fairly disappointing afer coming over from the Pirates, as he was pretty much average. He was average on defense, which was a step up for him (even though he’d won a Gold Glove in 2008, as he’d actually been quite bad that season) but average at the plate and on the bases. You can live with that, but the Braves expected better. To be fair, he was battling injuries most of the way.

Compared to his 2008 All-Star season, McLouth saw a twenty-point drop in batting average and a 61-point drop in slugging, that with the Braves was a 78-point drop. He didn’t lose homers, but went from leading the league with 46 doubles to hitting only 27. I don’t know what to make of that.

He was particularly disappointing on the basepaths; one of the best basestealers in the game with the Pirates, he was caught six of eighteen times with the Braves. I think that can be definitively attributed to the injury… Defensively, is strong on short plays but sometimes has trouble going back on balls. He apparently made some adjustments last year to help with that… Most-similar player through Age 27 is Brad Wilkerson, not a good sign.

90 thoughts on “Nate McLouth”

  1. i know bobby would never go for it but a platoon leadoff would seemingly be a solution to one of the braves’ offensive issues. Last year, Diaz got on base at a .464 clip against LHP and McLouth was at .371 against RHP. Both had significant dropoffs facing same-handed pitchers. Also, both can steal a base.

  2. Didn’t I read somewhere that McLouth preferred hitting lower in the order? Is there evidence that he is better lower than at lead off?

  3. Bobby bats him leadoff, what better evidence do you need that he’s a better hitter elsewhere in the order?

  4. From previous thread,

    I hated the four corners too, but Dean Smith is a Hall of Fame coach for sure. And, I would sure as hell rather play for him than for someone like Bob Knight, who is nothing but a bully and a blowhard. I never heard of Dean Smith throwing chairs across the floor and screaming at athletic department employees. Smith at least broght credit to the game, unlike Knight who consistently made a fool of himself with his Nixon-like anti-media paranoia(which doesn’t seem to be as bad now that he is in the media and getting paid for it himself.) As long as Knight is in the Hall of Fame, Dean Smith has to be. And it’s not like he invented slow-down basketball; he was taking advantage of the rules just like any other coach. (And, yes, I realize the commenter was being a bit facetious in saying Smith shouldn’t be in.)

  5. Seriously, a discussion about Dean Smith for the HoF and no mention of the likelihood that he used PEDs to discount the merits of his accomplishments?

    weak sauce people

  6. I am thoroughly enjoying the recent writings of chris. I hope people will keep opining on subjects on which chris considers himself the final authority.

    BTW, The Decemberists suck.

  7. Smith was a great coach & obviously deserves to be in the HoF. He’s easily in the Top 5 coaches of all time, probably Top 3. (BTW, #1 would be John Wooden. The rest is open to debate.)

    The Four Corners was brutal to watch, but it should be noted that it wasn’t often used for entire games. The famous game against Duke (7-0 score at halftime) is the most memorable example, but back in the days of Phil Ford, they usually broke it out around the 10 minute mark in the second half (but only if they had the lead).

    If you were a hardcore Heels fan, watching Ford make his opponents flail like the Washington Generals was great theater, especially when a long sequence would end with a layup from LaGarde or Kupchak. To the rest of us, it seemed like Smith was practically gaming the system. The shot clock, as it turned out, was the obvious response.

    Of course, Smith’s teams did pretty well after the shot clock was brought into the game, too. Great coaching & great talent usually do just fine, no matter the rules.

  8. I’ve been a Tar Heel most of my life, and I have purposely avoided commenting on Coach Smith, but I had to say ububba nailed it with post #7. Coach Smith was asked about a possible shot clock back in the 80’s and he was in favor of it.

    To reduce Dean Smith to ‘The Four Corners’ does a disservice to his innovations, which are commonplace 50 years after he began coaching – the Foul Line huddle, multiple switching defenses, pointing to the assist passer – many of which are seen in most, if not every game played from the NBA down to junior high.

    Anyway, I just want to point out that Coach Smith was more than just the 4 Corners, as you don’t win around 300 games with a 75% winning percentage in the shot clock era (including a NCAA title in ’93) if all you are is a delay game coach.

  9. Smith was also a great recruiter (I think that is a pro for him getting in the hall, which to me is a no brainer)

    He brought in a lot of talent to Chapel Hill:
    Larry Brown, James Worthy, Sam Perkins, Phil Ford, Bob McAdoo, Billy Cunningham, Kenny Smith, Walter Davis, Jerry Stackhouse, Antawn Jamison, Rick Fox, Vince Carter Rasheed Wallace and a ton of others. There was this one guy that, I can’t remember his name, but it seems that he had a decent career.

    He also graduated 96% of his players. His inclusion of American American to the UNC program has to be looked at. Go take a look at the list of coaches that have studied underneath him.

  10. Stu, thanks for last night. That will make this weekend when I’m watching the Super Bowl with a bunch of State people a lot more tolerable.

  11. We did our best to give away what should have been a comfortable win, but I’ll take the 6-1 start.

    Got a tough one in Oxford two weeks from tonight — will you be in attendance?

  12. Not that it’s of much interest, but Villareal signed by the Phils to a minor league deal. I can’t recall how we are in depth for starting pitching (beyond Medlen), but Oscar wasn’t a bad guy to have in the minors if somebody goes down hurt as I recall.

  13. No. I can’t make the mid week games and get back to Jackson with much hope of having a productive work day the next day. The way we’ve played lately I’d expect ya’ll to win by exactly ten.

    You going? Never know. I could get convinced to go.

  14. To Spike from the last thread:

    I like alot of classic rock, southern rock, grunge, things like that. I’m 35, so that should tell you the music I grew up with, but I have two older brothers (48 and 49) that exposed me to alot of the basics of rock, Led Zepplin, etc

  15. I’ll put some things on a web fileshare service for you. You can download them if anything strikes your fancy. Send your email address to atlantaspikeatgmaildotcom, if you are interested.

  16. 13—Nah, it’s even harder to make it back to work from Nashville. :) Besides, I gotta rest up to scream my brains out against UK two days after that.

  17. People often find it odd that I am a native North Carolinian, who doesn’t really follow college BB, but loves to watch the Heels lose. They can’t understand why.

    Then guys like chris show up and I can say, “That’s why.” It’s most insufferable fan base in all of sports. They feel entitled to win every game. EVERY game. And it’s an endless list of excuses when they don’t.

    That being said, it’s silly to say Dean Smith doesn’t belong in the HOF. He is a good man and a great basketball coach.

  18. It’s most insufferable fan base in all of sports.

    I should introduce you to some UK fans, Jason.

  19. Taking shots from a UT football fan?


    Oh, and Stu – you little Vandy instigator, you.

  20. Hey Jason, I’ve been a UNC fan my whole life… right behind the Braves for me, but I’m in VA and don’t know a whole lot of other Tar Heel people. Are they really that bad? I thought I’d heard they had a really classy fan base, much better than the a-holes at Duke.

  21. Actually, my experience with Heels fans has always been positive. They’re proud of their team, but aren’t we all.

    I went to the UK / UNC game at the Dean Dome a few years ago, wearing my UK garb. Everyone was great to me. (Of course, they won handily, making it easier to be gracious.)

    Had a great dinner at a restaurant at the top of a building on the strip. Really good experience.

    Now, Dukies? That’s a different story – insufferable.

  22. Florida fans are on par with UK bball fans. Here is the general assumption of most fan bases. Now these are obvious stereo types and there are exceptions to all.

    Alabama- Very loyal. They remind you on how they own the SEC. Nothing but Alabama football matters. I am glad they have Saban, because everyone is tired of the Bear. It gets on your nerves, but of late, they have proven they are back and it sucks. I have always said a good Alabama is good for the SEC. However, there is nothing worse than hearing the “Hey” song after losing to them.

    Arkansas- They still have strong ties to their former conference and they are an SEC out post. A win over Texas is still bigger than a win over Florida or Bama to them. Calling the Hawgs is interesting. They really don’t have the tradition that the other SEC schools have with each other. I think that will change over time.

    Auburn- Pretty low key. They kind of have a chip on their shoulder. They are enjoyable to be around. I always have enjoyed the UT-AU rivalry. It is an old one, but it isn’t an intense as Florida or Bama.

    Florida- Obnoxious. Can’t win with class, though winning is a relatively new thing for them (as in within this generation.) Win Bama wins, at least they act like they have been there before.

    UGA- I have always liked Dawg fans (I married one) I think they were more tolerable before Richt.

    UK- They are the Alabama of basketball. Fair weather football fans though.

    LSU- Start drinking on Tuesday. Lots of fun when they are on the road. Hardest place to play at night in America.

    Ole Miss- Best looking women. The Grove is cool. Probably the most tortured fan base in the conference.

    Miss. St.- Poor facilities are one of the big reasons they aren’t as competitive. Shows me there isn’t big rich alumni support. The cowbells are cool though.

    Carolina- They have really connected to the SEC well, much better than Arkansas. They haven’t won anything, but if they did, they would just become what Florida fans are. You can see the potential there.

    Tenn.- Second fiddle historically to Bama. We preach our history and tradition. However, recent years have sent us into a spiral and we have kind of acted like wounded animals. We defended Kiffin and his actions and we got burned bad by it. Some UT fans are unrealistic about where we are football wise and think we should have stuck with Fulmer. In recent years we have supported out bball team well, though we don’t have a strong men’s history.

    Vandy- They can argue they are the most tortured fan base, but they have no where near the expectations Ole Miss does. A bowl game is like a national title to them. Bball program is really good. They have a small but vocal fan base.

    I’ll sit back and let Stu add to or argue with me. Either way. ha ha ha.

  23. 27—Totally agree with you about UNC fans (chris excepted, apparently) and Duke fans, hank.

    Was Top of the Hill the restaurant at which you ate?

  24. Stu – that is hilarious. Who ever thought to ask that question?

    Yes, I think Top of the Hill was it. Had this incredible berry-based sauce.

  25. Got a buddy’s bachelor party started off there a couple of years ago — really good food, as best I can recall.

  26. Greetings from Toronto…

    You mean Georgia was more tolerable when UT was beating up on the 2 previous coaches?

    The UK/UNC hoops fan comparison is one I’ve made a lot. (I’d say the UNC folks are more preppy.) In my time, I’ve had a bellyfull of UK folks. I recall going to a UGA/UK game at The Omni (1988 or so) & those people were ridiculous. Every non-Blue call was a conspiracy.

    I remember covering a UK/UGA game for the UGA newspaper in Athens in ’86 or so (UGA won) and the UK people made it sound like UGA should’ve felt guilty about winning. Whine & cheese to make you hurl.

    But, I gotta say, they do travel. At the UConn/UK game at MSG this year, the number of fans was close to even, which was shocking.

    I like your list, although every other SEC person would have a different perspective depending on their particular rivalries. SEC West schools don’t bug me that much. I hate losing to Auburn, but for some reason it hurts worse to lose to the schools on the other side of the Chattahoochee.

  27. ok, last post for help. I’m a little short for my surgery, and donations would be greatly appreciated. I will provide a bank account number, or address for donations. I’m getting desperate, I have crap ass insurance. If you cant, I promise I will never hold it against anyone, because I understand the reluctance to give money to strangers, but I can provide all the documentation needed to prove my condition. Thanks if you can help, and god bless if you cant…..oemtrans at gmail dot com is the address

    Thanks, good friends

  28. Javy Lopez kinda sorta all but admitted to using steroids.

    Lopez was then asked flatly if players were looking at steroids as an option and using them.

    “Uh, yes,” he said. “In my opinion, yes…. I mean, how can I explain this? It’s like if you’re going to race cars, if you’re going to race a car and some people are using nitro in the fuel [Lopez laughed], and you see them winning all the time, and you’re using regular gas – you know what? If they’re using nitro and they’ve been winning, well, I’d be stupid enough not to use nitro, too.”

  29. from USA TODAY…

    “”I still feel there is a quality market for Johnny Damon,” Boras says, “and I’m negotiating with a number of teams. There are three teams out there that if they don’t have Johnny Damon, they’re not winning the division. He’s the difference in these teams making the playoffs or not contending.”

    Boras is referring to the Detroit Tigers, the Atlanta Braves and an unknown third team.”

  30. 2010 Mets vs. 2010 Braves, Rotation

    1 Johan vs. Hudson – Clear edge to Johan here.
    2 Maine vs. Jurrjens – I like Jurrj here but closer than most would think
    3 Pelfrey vs. Lowe – I expect Lowe to win this handily
    4 Perez vs. Hanson – Biggest mismatch on the board, Hanson easy
    5 Nieve or Niese vs. KK – Pretty clear edge for ATL here too

    Of course one could argue the positions on the depth charts especially for ATL (I used the ones on NBC’s site) but we seem to have a decided advantage except for the #1.

  31. 2010 Mets vs. 2010 Braves, Bullpen

    1 FRod vs Wagner – Slight Edge to FRod mainly for health reasons
    2 Escobar vs Saito – Injury concerns, I’ll go with Saito
    3 Feliciano vs. Moylan – Moy, easy
    4 Igarashi vs. O’Flaherty – Know nothing of Igarashi I’ll say draw
    5 Parnell vs. Medlen – Medlen but Parnell seemed useful in the pen
    6 Green vs. Chavez – Chavez pretty handily
    7 Figeroa vs. Dunn? – Figeroa gets the edge here over whoever

    In all I like the big 3 of ATL much better than NYM even if I do give a slight edge to NY at closer. The back end of the pen seems like a wash to me although Medlen could emerge as the best of the bunch.

  32. 2010 Mets vs. 2010 Braves, Infield

    C Santos vs. McCann – Wow not even close
    1B Murphy vs. Glaus – Glaus easy if healthy
    2B Castillo vs. Prado – Prado gets the edge based on power potential
    3B Wright vs. Jones – Look for both to bounce back-slight edge to Wright
    SS Reyes vs. Escobar – Maybe controversial but I’ll take Esco this year as Reyes bounces back from injury

    Anyway you slice it that’s another marked advantage for ATL.

  33. 2010 Mets vs. 2010 Braves, Outfield

    LF Bay vs. Diaz/Melky – Bay though not as big as you’d think
    CF Beltran vs McLouth – When Beltran is healthy, huge edge to NY
    RF Fr4nc000r vs Heyward – C’Mon I’d take 18 year old Heyward over Jeff

    So other than the black hole in Right, the Mets do put together a nice outfield whenever Beltran returns, until then it’s probably a draw.

  34. 2010 Mets vs. 2010 Braves, Bench

    C Blanco vs Ross – Ross with the big edge though NY could use Thole which would be a bit more even
    IF Hinske vs Tatis – Hinske slightly, better bench bat at this point
    IF Cora vs. Infante – Omar and it’s not close
    OF Pagan vs. Melky – Seems pretty even maybe slight edge to Pagan
    UT Matthews Jr. vs. M Jones – I’d like us to use Jones for the last bench spot over someone like Thurston and if we did I think it’s advantage ATL. If it’s Thurston I’d give the edge to NY

    I like our bench better as well.
    Sorry for the quintiple post.

  35. Obviously, you know “head to head” comparisons are useless in baseball, but it’s a way to kill the time until spring training I suppose. Bay (134 OPS+ last yr/132 3yr avg) and Beltran (143 OPS+ last yr, 132 3yr avg) by themselves are way better than our OF. While I don’t think it’s sustainable, don’t forget Frenchy and Pagan turned in a 120 for them. You underestimate them.

    I have been struggling with the idea that Heyward, assuming he makes the team, is going to be an impact bat in his first season. It’s extremely rare to even PLAY at 20, let alone contribute. A full season OPS+ of 100 would be quite an accomplishment indeed. PECOTA and Bill James (typically very optimistic for young players) like him for around 120, CHONE has him under 100. I don’t have the dba skilz to do it, but I would love to see a list of under 21’s who OPS+ at 120 or better – bet it’s very HOF heavy.

  36. I don’t feel I underestimate their OF, maybe I wasn’t strong enough so I’ll say their OF is clearly better than ours by a lot. My point was if you replace Beltran with Pagan it’s close to even because most of their advantage comes from Beltran. Also, Diaz OPS+ last season was 133 (albeit in fewer PAs) and if you expect Frenchy to punch up an OPS+ of 120 this year I’ll take the under and lay 5:1 odds.

    But you may be correct that Heyward will be nothing special in his first year.

  37. Thanks Alex! I guess I should be shamed into reading your blog more regularly. As I suspected, of the nineteen, we get three outliers (Pinson, McInnis, Hoblitzel) one tragedy (Conigliaro), one damn good career (Magee) and 13 HOFs (or surefire HOFs). I would be beyond ecstatic if Heyward joined their company.

    Heck, that Magee career arc would suit any Braves fan just fine.

  38. AAR,

    I think Heyward will turn 21 before the regular season ends. Is that consistent with the same standard used for the search?

    I think a few more put up monster seasons at 21 (Eddie Mathews, for one). Possibly also the Strawberry season.

  39. By the way, I should have said “17 players” — Mel Ott and Tony Conigliaro each did it twice.

    Of those 17, 10 are in the Hall of Fame, and Alex Rodriguez and Ken Griffey are sure to join them. Vada Pinson, Dick Hoblitzel, Sherry Magee, and Stuffy McInnis peaked early. Tony C would have had a much better career if not for that eye injury.

  40. minor point – I don’t think you can say Magee peaked too early with 14 outta 15 straight 120 or better OPS+, and a full season 166 at age 33. He took ill in ’19, and retired at 34.

    It’s a fascinating read – I’d like to know more about this guy. Another 4 or so seasons at the level he was producing consistently when he left and we are talking about a very very impressive career – more so when you consider this was the dead ball era

  41. FBF… do you have a PayPal account? That might be the easiest way for folks to contribute… like we did when Mac needed help moving the site.

  42. 17 Total? Ever? I don’t like the odds of Heyward joining such a small list. Leave him at AAA until June.

  43. Well, what those numbers don’t take into account is that everyone is saying Jason Heyward is the greatest prospect in the history of whatever.

  44. How do the Braves compare to the Phillies, which seems like a more relevant comparison?

  45. Jumpin’ catfish, what an amazing story Magee has. It’s like Ironweed meets Pride Of The Yankees. I just love stuff like this. Definitely a contender for the Best Not In The Hall Player, and get this – his rookie season was his first season of professional baseball at any level. He was literally pulled off the sandlot and plugged into the bigs.

    Sherry Magee biography

  46. *Giggles*

    I understand that people in the game are saying we did as good as anybody in preparing our top prospect to OPS+ 100 at the MLB level in his age 20 season.

  47. I love this meme. The short version: when talking about the 2008 offseason, someone on the Royals actually said this: “Everybody thought we had the greatest offseason in the history of whatever and people in the game were saying we did as good as anybody in improving the team.”

    Rany suggested that it was the greatest quote in the history of whatever and suggested that we should write our own. I wrote a few over at Chop-n-Change, of course.

    Atlanta, 1864: Everybody thought we had the greatest wooden buildings in the history of whatever and people in the Confederacy were saying we did as good as anybody at making them fireproof.

  48. Is Heyward considered a better prospect than Griffey or ARod? Or even Andruw? Andruw was “The Next Willie Mays” after blowing through all levels of the minors and then hitting the 2 HRs in the WS. And his age 20 season was nothing to brag about.

  49. I realize the discussion has moved on from my original point, but my point was that I’d take Heyward over Francouer this year and in my estimation, you don’t necessarily have to excel at baseball to be deemed more useful than Frenchy.

  50. Wow – gotta like that ZiPS offense – your potential starting 8 all with an OBP heavy OPS+ of 105 or better. That will score you a lot of runs.

  51. @68

    Glaus only projected at 14 hrs, I would bet he would safely get that. I would have thought 20-25

  52. Hap, no I dont, but I have direct deposit numbers, or if you’d prefer to send a check that would be ok too…’

  53. Hap, no I dont, but I have direct deposit numbers, or if you’d prefer to seSnd a check that would be ok too…

    Stupid question on the Zip projections, why would they have Tom Glavine listed on that stat chart?


  54. @72 – That’s because they only project him to play 90 games.

  55. Well, if there is to be any comparison for Heyward this season, then compare him to the first full season from Andruw Jones.

    A.J.s 1997 season at age 20 looked like this:

    18 HR’s, 70 RBI, .231 BA and .329 OBP/.416 SLG/.745 OPS.

    Personally I think Heyward is capable of exceeding these numbers.

  56. Bob Horner broke into the big leagues at age 20 and posted this in 1978:

    23 HR’s, 63 RBI, .266 BA and .313 OBP,.539 SLG, .852 OPS.

    At any rate, these are the only two examples of an Atlanta Braves player who had any kind of success at the tender age of 20, and that’s during all of the past 44 years since the Braves moved from Milwaukee.

  57. @-79 Why do you say that? I mean, sure it’s possible, but:

    Andruw’s age 19 line, 3 teams (more AA/AAA ab’s I might add) .339/.421/.652/1.072

    Jason’s – 3 teams .323/.408/.555/.963

    and other than being ahead as a hitter, Andruw was a superior defender to Heyward.

  58. You know it’s February when you’re arguing over who did what in their age-20 seasons like it even matters, and arguing over whether or not ZIPS actually have any clue over who’s going to do what. ZIPS says that Troy Glaus is going to play 91 games. What the heck is ZIPS basing that off of? Do they keep track of how many games all the other 32 year old former third basemen who hit 45 HRs as a 23 year old in the AL West and moved to the NL East and shifted to first base have played? And how do they know Billy Wagner is only going to pitch 36 innings? Why not 15 like last season or 47 or 68 like the previous two seasons before that? Do they have access to his medical records? Have they evaluated his elbow themselves? Or do they just have a very scientific formula for determining how 38 year old closers pitch after having TJ? Give me a break.

    The Braves this year are a crapshoot. When the biggest wild card in your season is the durability of post-surgery, wrong-side-of-30 players, ZIPS and PECOTA and Bill Pecota are largely irrelevant. There is simply no way of knowing, unless Jeff Porter was consulted.

  59. So ZIPS has Heyward at 275/341/429. OK. Why are people in a rush to see a performance like that? Sure, it’s promising to see a 20-year old hold his own at the ML level, but those are Melky numbers!

    I’m perfectly happy going into April with Diaz/McLouth/Melky in the OF.

  60. 82, I agree. Nobody knows if this version of our Braves will stay healthy or not. As Frank Wren himself said, Troy Glaus is a gamble. But on paper the Braves are as good or better than they were when the 2009 season ended……on paper.

    To call our Braves a crap shoot or wild card entry is basically saying the same thing, and the division is the Phillies to lose.

    Spike, trying to predict what kind of season we can expect from Heyward is educated guesswork at best. Personally I want to be positive about it. But like one professional scout said when asked what was wrong or lacking concerning Jason Heyward’s game he replied: Nothing.

  61. Pretty good basketball debate occurring here at Braves Journal. As I diehard UK fans (I know hankonly bleeds blue too), a couple of thoughts:
    – Dean in the HoF is a no-brainer and not really worthy of a debate. Good coach, great recruiter and the consistency of the UNC program under his watch is really remarkable.
    – I dislike Duke more than any other basketball program. I mean really dislike them….but I love Jay Bilas. He’s insightful and objective. For basketball nuts, he does a good job explaining nuances to the game (Tubby’s ball line D, Roy’s secondary break, Cal’s DDM, the Princeton offense). Bilas on TV and Grant Wahl at CNNSI…two of my faves.
    – Kentucky fans are passionate, no doubt about that. I’m obviously biased, but I would argue that other fan bases are a little more reckless. West Virginia fans terrify me. UGA fans can be a little rowdy (and I’m a UGA fan as well). Florida fans are consistently intolerable.
    – Auburn and Ole Miss fans are the best I’ve been around.

  62. Ah, brilliant minds thinking alike:

    I, too, would rather listen to a Dukie (Bilas) than any other CBB analyst and it’s not close.

    In fact, I’d honestly love for him to become UK’s next athletic director. Being very serious here.

    Doing a project for a guy who’s organizing a trip to Braves Spring Training – talk about getting your mouth to watering!

    Does Kovalchuk’s exit mean the Thrashers are soon to follow?

  63. Nick and Hank

    we ‘Heels are touchy when people disrespect our coach when they have no idea about basketball and resort to “editorial” diatribes just to rile people up. I could go on and on, but it’s not worth it. You are entitled to your opinion(s). I’ll just stick to facts.

    stu? what? that’s funny. i just proved hank WRONG. he stated “8-6 game at the half with Jordan, Worthy and Sampson on the floor”. that’s just wrong. and i’m the bad guy and Mac deletes the post? that’s funny. just stick to baseball, fellas.

  64. From Rosenthal/Morosi:

    It’s not clear how many suitors are showing interest in Johnny Damon at the moment. But the Tigers and Braves are definitely among the group, multiple major league sources told late Friday.

  65. I could go on and on, but it’s not worth it.

    Talk about locking the barn door after the horse has left…

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