Great, these guys game thread: June 26, Red Sox at Braves

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72 thoughts on “Great, these guys game thread: June 26, Red Sox at Braves”

  1. I’m OK with the Sox. Although I wouldn’t hate it if Toronto and Tampa pulled off a 1-2 finish this year. The Yankees can go rot at the bottom of a swamp for all I care.

  2. Going to the game tonight via a free ticket supplied by a Red Sox fan. Not sure how to feel about that.

  3. From previous thread:

    I think Cliff has a point about age. Bobby clearly isn’t the manager he was when he was younger. And I don’t think a manager should manage forever just because he was once successful. That’s not to say, obviously, that a younger manager is necessarily better than an older manager, but it stands to reason that, as with players and people in general, there comes a point when a manager is less effective. The problem is that, unlike football, managers have much less effect on the game so it’s hard to tell when a manager has really lost it. If Bobby had the same team now he had in 1996, maybe his moves wouldn’t look so crazy because he wouldn’t need to make as many. It’s pretty easy to put Greg Maddux out there and tell him to go finish the game.

  4. I don’t doubt that age impacts ability for managers, just like every other person on the planet. I also know that Jack McKeon was a better manager than men half his age until he was 80. I think Cox has more going for him than McKeon ever did. Give him the players and he will win. Give him Jeff Francoeur and Jeff Bennett and he will not.

  5. I took a look at Chippers fielding stats via

    (scroll to the bottom)

    Chipper is sporting a .903 Fielding % and a Zone Rating of .697, far and a way the worst of his career.

    That cannot be helping. Also, think about the last time you saw a left handed batting Chipper hit it out to LCF. He is either pressing or he is losing a step. Still a fine, fine player, but not worth 13 million.

    D. Lowe: Bill Simmons wrote about the NBA draft this year and compared it to Virgin Megastore going out of business (Circut City would be an analogy for us in the south). By the time the prices hit 80 percent off, nothing was left and he almost talked himself into buying some very average Blu-Ray movies. He eventually puts them down and leaves, because at even at 80 percent off, junk is junk no matter how great the sale is.

    That is how I feel about D. Lowe. He is like those movies, extremely average and probably not worth buying. Howver at deep discount he would be very tempting, but the braves bid AGAINST THEMSELVES, and now they are tied up for approx. 28-30 million between Chipper and Lowe until 2011 or 2012.

    Everyone blames Peter Angelos for the demise of the Os, but Wren had a hand in destroying them and he is destroying us from within.

  6. The only part of Bobby’s performance we are in a position to judge are the in game decisions. What happens in the clubhouse, before games, spring training, etc. is not really visible to us.

    The in-game stuff is purely a factor of knowledge, experience – essentially brainpower. So the argument becomes has age made Bobby not as sharp mentally?

    Personally I don’t think so, he’s always done a fair amount of stuff that I consider not optimal and that continues. Basically his teams stopped winning when they stopped have players good enough to win.

  7. There is no worse banter than ex-tennis-player-turned-announcer banter if John McEnroe is not involved.

  8. @7,

    “Everyone blames Peter Angelos for the demise of the Os, but Wren had a hand in destroying them and he is destroying us from within.”


    That’s sort of a cheap shot. Wren was GM of the O’s for one year. Angelos gave the GM no authority (it’s changed somewhat since he hired Andy McPhail). The team was screwed up before he came and has been since he left. In fact, except for a couple of years, the O’s have been down for 25 years. It’s really unfair to blame Wren for the O’s.

    Agree with Robert about Bobby.

  9. That’s sort of a cheap shot. Wren was GM of the O’s for one year. Angelos gave the GM no authority.

    To that point, Wren hired on to GM the Orioles as they were waning from their mid-90s peak. He did the baseball analysis and surmised that they needed to move older players – including Cal Ripken I believe – and rebuild with younger players. Angelos went ballistic and refused to let Wren trade any player that had Angelos’ ear. As a result the Orioles did not rebuild but attempted to add-on and piece-meal together “contenders” by skimming the free agent market for equally past-their-prime players (David Segui, Jeff Conine, etc.) To some extent this continues to this day – that’s why Brian Roberts has not been traded for example.

    In Atlanta Wren is tasked with the same job, and so far upper management has been smart enough to get out of the way and let him do it, moving Smoltz and Glavine and cycling in young, talented players to replace them. Of course, you can’t rebuild a mess as big as the 2006-7 Braves in one off-season, so it’s still a work in progress.

    Frank Wren, like Bobby Cox, is not the problem. Having Matt Diaz, a nice little platoon player, as your best OF for most of two seasons is the problem.

  10. The Reds trade FOR Corky Miller. How pathetic.

    Considering their lack of judgement, maybe we can swindle them for an OF…or some offense in general. Or maybe their whole damn team.

  11. All this bitching about Bobby is pretty funny. As if firing him turns this team around. To paraphrase the man himself when asked how he has had so much success over the years, alluding to the 14 straight division titles, he said ‘I’ve had a lot of good players here.’
    This is an incomplete team to be sure. Wren couldn’t do anything about a hitter in the off season but he has laid a strong foundation going forward. So we start to look to next year and hope that he doesn’t succomb to the temptation to break up our starting pitching staff. Yeah, dangle Sori and Gonzo but not the starters.

    If you think about it a lot of things had to happen for the team to compete this year. Well Francouer didn’t bounce back, KJ’s late season surge last year didn’t carry over to this year, Kotchman went cold, Anderson is a judy with no power, Chipper missed some time and he isn’t hitting with any power and Jordan Schafer needed to stay in the minors. When you are zero for all the things you hope go right then this season to date is the result.

  12. Since I have led the charge on the need to move Cox for the past couple of days.

    I have NEVER said moving Cox will completely turn this team around. I have said and continue to say: that it will be a forward move, not backward; that it will have a greater impact than any other one move that CAN be made (I don’t mean like trading Jo Jo Reyes for Matt Holliday); REASONABLE trades, semi-possible, with semi reasonable payroll increases); possible internal moves of minor leaguers up and others out.

    Realistically, without Cox to this point this team is about 4 games better. Meaning they would have upped the playoff odds from 10% to 30 % (or somthing like that).

    I am VERY concerned that the “good” of a lot of the system is being frittered away trying to help Bobby and he is dragging those chances down, rather than lifting them up.

  13. I blame the weather for the Braves bad play. Why, you ask? I say, why not. Just as good a reason as most posted on here. Whenever something goes wrong, people start pointing the finger just about anywhere. There was actually someone on here yesterday who pointed to McCann as a problem. And Frank Wren? Wow. I have nothing to say about those comments. Chipper’s contract? The guy is not overpaid people. He is one of the best hitters in the game – even with less power. Oh, I got it, it must be the grass at the TED – these guys just don’t know how to play on it yet.

  14. Johnny,

    And actually Wren did do something about a hitter. He went and spent 2.5 million on ACHE at the specific instance and request of Bobby Cox. Yes, Wren could have said “forget it” (or maybe he couldn’t?), but that was the guy Bobby wanted. Most of the people here thought it was a bad idea. If we had gone Diaz all the way we would have done better and could have applied the $2.5 somewhere else.

    Also, somebody gave in to little Jeffy’s contract bitching. That could have been Wren (unlikely), could have been Schuerholz or McGuirk (the ad and revenue thing), but it probably was at least partly Cox. They should have stuck with their arb offer and “stuck it to Jeff” as hard as they could. That had to create animosities.

    And, Bobby just participated in sending down (I know the decision is technically Wren’s, but do you think it owuld have happened with Cox’ concurrence?)what may be the best hitter to come from our minor leagues to our major leagues since Andruw Jones (Brbaro Canizares). Why didn’t they keep him up to DH the AL games and first base against righthanders? My believe (and yes, I don’t know) that Cox didn’t like his glove and that is why Barbaro is once agin hitting 340 for Gwinnett.

    Also, somebody decided to guarantee Glavine 1 (maybe 1.5?). I know Cox wasn’t against it. There was PR trouble there that pushed FO, too, but if you take that money and the ACHE money and the payroll increse getting McLouth and we could have gotten Dunn or Abreu or somebody that would have HELPED.

  15. Realistically, without Cox to this point this team is about 4 games better.

    How could anyone ever know that? Maybe they’re 8 games better; maybe they’re 16 games worse. Who the hell knows?

    Instead of “realistically,” perhaps you meant “theoretically”?

  16. 7 — For the first time, I think the Braves actually need to seriously consider moving Chipper to first this offseason.

    The only potential problems with that are it may block Freddie Freeman 2 years down the road, and that the Braves will have to acquire a new 3b. But, that’s nothing new, it’s just moving a hole that we currently have at first base.

  17. 16 — Sorry, but there’s no way in hell Barbaro is the best hitter we’ve produced since Andruw. He’s a 29 year old (possibly older) career minor leaguer.

    I do agree he’s probably a better hitter than Kotchman, though, which I think is your bottom line.

  18. And Canizares glove *does* suck. Considering how much noise this site generates over Anderson’s poor defense I would think people might take that into account with Barbaro.

  19. How could anyone ever know that? Maybe they’re 8 games better; maybe they’re 16 games worse. Who the hell knows?

    Instead of “realistically,” perhaps you meant “theoretically”?

    Yeah, #14 and #16 are not a real good read. I especially enjoy the ‘well sure this stuff is Wren’s job and responsibility but we know Bobby was really behind it” line of thinking.

  20. 20—Well, we didn’t see it with Barbaro, really. He was fine in his limited opportunity in Atlanta. We’ve all seen Anderson suck in many (most?) games.

    I’m not suggesting that Barbaro doesn’t suck—I trust the scouts, all of whom seem to think he’s an absolute butcher—but I think it’s somewhat understandable why you’d read complaints about ACHE’s defense and not Barbaro’s here.

  21. Escobar out with the hip flexor, McCann out with light-headedness. Francoeur sucks.
    1. N McLouth, CF .
    2. M Prado, 2B
    3. C Jones, 3B
    4. G Anderson, LF
    5. C Kotchman, 1B
    6. J Francoeur, RF
    7. D Ross, C
    8. D Hernandez, SS
    9. J Jurrjens, P

    Oh, and ACHE is back to his namesake role. And Francoeur sucks.

  22. I might have to sit this one out with light-headedness, too, after looking at that lineup.

  23. @14 and 16
    Cliff, I suppose that in then end a blog is a chance to rant and express opinion. Looking at those posts reminds me a lot of the stuff I read over at though dude. But my opinion isn’t any better than yours just supported by a few facts.

  24. any braves bloggers in santa rosa beach, florida. i am about to move there and it would be nice to relocate close to some braves fans. there are none where i’m currently living (new orleans).

  25. ryan,

    I live in Pensacola, which is right down the road. Drop me a line at jdremy [at] gee mail dot com.

  26. During the last commercial break the cameras zoomed in on this hot girl’s legs and left it there for the duration on the break, pretty funny.

  27. Now THAT’s how you slide to break up a DP. Francoeur, take notes.

  28. Honestly — is there ANYthing worse than Chip Caray’s impression of his dad? It’s actually harder to listen to than it is to watch the Groundhog swing the bat.

  29. Marc,

    My #7 comment wasn’t just a cheap shot….it was free (rimshot)
    and there is more where that came from

    Q: How do you ensure a sellout at Tuner Field
    A: Have the Red Sox play the Cubs an exhibition there!


    That is all I have for my Chip humor

    BTW: Did anyone else here ‘Thriller’ playing in the background and Chip get caught saying ‘not anymore’ on the mic during the break. I would have liked to have heard the rest of the conversation.

    Back to Wren: He may or may not be fully responsible for the Orioles. It was probably Angelos’ fault, but he damn sure hasn’t learned anything from that experience. Overpriced FA and the minors getting gutted is what got the Orioles killed and it’s happening to the Braves. If I had endured that I would go completely in the other direction, but Wren is copying it!!!!!!!!!!!!!

  30. @33: And there it is.

    When you take even one of Yunel/Chipper/B-Mac out of the lineup, the offense is impotent, inert and inept.

  31. oh man coulda backed that up but man am i tired guys yaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaawn

  32. Garret might resemble a professional hitter at times, but he’s a rank amateur in the field.

  33. Took the scenic route to a ball that got past Chipper and Hernandez, thus permitting a double that should have been a single.

  34. Think I’m being passive-aggressive enough with my disdain for Anderson yet?

  35. They let the pitcher hit for himself in the seventh, down two runs… and I have no problem with that. Let’s face it, Jurrjens has terrible karma.

  36. Bobby: “JJ, Beckett will pitch a shutout tonight. You just go out and pitch as long as you can. Btw, your midfielders tonight are Diory and Prado!”

  37. Nate may have hurt his hammy running down the first base line…

    …oh chipper, why are you looking so helpless tonight?!

  38. I hate this team.

    I really hate Garrett Anderson.

    But it’s Bobby that puts him in the game.

    I’m done. In the exalted words of Merle Haggard, “Ain’t livin’ long like this.”

  39. @58 – Sadly, Garrett Anderson is one of our best offensive players right now. So yes, Bobby puts him in the game. So what is your point there?

  40. Man – it’s just too bad we probably won’t make the post-season. We have 2 guys at the back end of our bullpen that can shut anyone down. Maybe 3 of Moylan continues to get better. By the end of the year (unless we trade someone), we will have the best pitching in the majors by a good margin.

  41. Yall should be getting really bent out of shape with Francona right now. He is doing something unbelievably crazy – he is bringing in Papelbon in a non-save situation. He must be completely stupid because only an idiotic manager like Bobby would do something like that.

  42. Ross now has 6 homeruns in how many at-bats??? He would easily be leading our team if he had more playing time.

  43. Now we would have to reel off 6 in a row just to get over .500. I think July is just going to get uglier.

  44. Having fun, Joshua?

    This is bullshit and you know it.

    If Garrett Anderson cared any less about being a Brave, he’d be comatose.

    If we’re gonna lose, at least give me someone who wants to be here.

  45. And Chipper should probably keep his mouth shut until he starts looking like he belongs in the league.

  46. @68 – don’t disagree with you on the fielding and attitude. The guy looks like he could care less and probably does. Just saying, can’t blame Bobby for throwing him out there when we are begging for offense and he is one of your best options for it. I personally can’t stand the guy b/c of how lazy he is out there, but he is playing for a reason.

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