Runs Created, Runs Created Above Average, Runs Created Per Game, all third basemen, all time (numbers from the Sabermetric Encyclopedia, Baseball Reference will differ):
CAREER
3B
RUNS CREATED RC
1 George Brett 1869
2 Mike Schmidt 1735
3 Wade Boggs 1732
4 Eddie Mathews 1715
5 Chipper Jones 1668
6 Darrell Evans 1478
7 Lave Cross 1383
8 Ron Santo 1358
9 Brooks Robinson 1343
10 Stan Hack 1252
RCAA RCAA
1 Eddie Mathews 655
2 Chipper Jones 629
3 Mike Schmidt 623
4 George Brett 593
5 Wade Boggs 556
6 John McGraw 442
7 Bill Joyce 333
8 Denny Lyons 318
9 Stan Hack 315
10 Home Run Baker 303
RUNS CREATED/GAME RC/G
1 Denny Lyons 9.29
2 Chipper Jones 8.36
3 Mike Schmidt 7.22
4 Deacon White 7.21
5 Eddie Mathews 7.15
6 Wade Boggs 7.12
7 Billy Nash 6.96
8 Scott Rolen 6.75
9 Ned Williamson 6.73
10 Harlond Clift 6.65
N.B.: Denny Lyons, who is not in the Hall of Fame, was a nineteenth century player whose best years were in the inferior American Association and whose career ended at 31; he’s not really part of the conversation.
You can make an argument that Chipper’s the best third baseman of all time. If he plays 100 games or more, he will probably move past Eddie for the most RCAA all time in 2009; 26 behind, he has had more than that every year of his career but two (1995 and 2004). He has had at least 84 runs created every year of his career; that would move him up to second behind Brett. And his per game numbers are so much better than Schmidt’s that even a relatively steep decline would keep him the modern leader in RC/per game.
Lave Cross? Stan Hack? Bill Nash? The thing tht I find interesting about these lists is that they are populated by relatively recent players (Brett, Robinson, Schmidt, Chipper, etc.) or players from much earlier eras. Matthews seems to be the only to run producer from the 1950s…Any thoughts?
Sometime during the Babe Ruth era, there was a shift in the defensive spectrum. Before, second base was more of a hitter’s position, third base a defensive position. What happened seems to be that before 1920, teams pretty much always bunted when the leadoff man got on. This put a premium on defense at third base (since third basemen field the most bunts) and took it off at second base (since the double play was not common).
Anyway, it didn’t flip right away. You still had slugging second basemen like Lazzeri and particularly Hornsby. And while third basemen became better hitters, they tended to be singles hitters. The “modern” (nobody called it that then) record for homers by a third baseman in 1930 was 18, set by the legendary Marty McManus in 1929.
There were only 14 seasons before 1945 when a third baseman hit 20 or more homers. The most was by Mel Ott in 1938, playing out of position. The fourth-most was Ned Williamson’s fluke 27 in 1884, hitting home runs into a porch that was a doubles spot every other year. And four others were all by Harlond Clift, whom everybody hated. But after Clift, the slugging third basemen started to filter into the majors.
You could make an argument, but it would be tough (I know, always me with the negativity). Schmidt has those 10 GG’s, roughly 150 more HR’s, a few points of OPS+, and 1000 more AB’s. If you want to crown Chipper the best offensive 3B by RC, well maybe so. I think Chip’s defense is exceptionally underrated, but I really don’t see it rising to the level of Schmidt’s. Further, I think we can expect that the RC gap will drop as his career goes on, (just as his counting stats will rise, too), but for RIGHT NOW, I put him as #3, narrowly, behind Matthews until his career is complete.
As for the fifties, the best third basemen of that period other than Mathews were Eddie Yost (whose career was truncated because he had to keep convincing people he could really hit) and Al Rosen (who got hurt). Santo and Robinson are on the list, so they bridge the gap between Mathews and Brett-Schmidt-Boggs.
Personally, I would rank it:
Schmidt
Chipper
Brett
Mathews
Boggs
“What happened seems to be that before 1920, teams pretty much always bunted when the leadoff man got on.”
Isn’t this the way Bobby Cox manages now?
Thanks Mac. Interesting list, but for my two cents worth I believe that Brooks Robinson has to be above Boggs….
I definitely deem Chipper to be among the worthy. But, I don’t think he has ever been the offensive force that Schmidt was (I saw Schmidt play from about 10 to 28 or so) Schmidt was also the best defensive 3B for most of his era, while also being by far the best offensively *until he was aging and Brett was in his prime.
Are these numbers era adjusted? My concern is that a home run was a lot harder to come by in 1980 than in 1996. Even assuming no performance enhancing substances by Chipper, he still would have benefited from the generally shorter porches (of visiting stadia. The Launching Pad would have added HR’s to Chipper, as well). But mainly because Schmidt hit at Riverfront, Not Great American, at 3 Rivers and not at PNC, and home games at the Vet instead of Citizens Bank Park. Also, no games at Rocky Mountain High. Astrodome instead of Orange Juice home run haven. A very big difference in average park.
Does RC control for park, era, league, etc.?
RCAA should be era-adjusted, actually year-adjusted. The other two are not. One of the reasons the nineteenth century players are on there (I can do a “modern” list if you want) is that they played in an era when a whole lot of runs were scored; also an era when there were a lot of useless players, driving up the value of the good ones.
From the Hardball Times:
Are these numbers era adjusted?
Does RC control for park, era, league, etc.?
There’s a bunch of different ways to compute RC, but since Mac used the ones from baseball reference.com, here is Sean’s definition (it does not appear to have any era/league corrections)
# RC – Runs Created – A runs estimator created by Bill James. A runs estimator attempts to quantify the entire contribution of a player’s statistics to a team’s total runs scored. It typically involves some positive value for things like hits, walks, steals, home runs, etc. and negative values for outs, caught stealing and GIDP. There are 24 different versions of RC depending on the stats you have. In general, I am using the tech version which incorporates baserunning, HBP and other offensive events. When those aren’t available I use the SB version, and when those aren’t available, I use the basic version, (H + BB) * (TB)/ (AB + BB)
# RC/G – Runs Created per Game – Typically the average game has around 27 outs, but this can vary by the size of the homefield advantage and the number of extra-inning games. We use the seasonal average outs/game.
“Modern” lists:
RUNS CREATED RC
1 George Brett 1869
2 Mike Schmidt 1735
3 Wade Boggs 1732
4 Eddie Mathews 1715
5 Chipper Jones 1668
6 Darrell Evans 1478
7 Ron Santo 1358
8 Brooks Robinson 1343
9 Stan Hack 1252
T10 Graig Nettles 1248
T10 Jimmy Dykes 1248
RCAA RCAA
1 Eddie Mathews 655
2 Chipper Jones 629
3 Mike Schmidt 623
4 George Brett 593
5 Wade Boggs 556
6 Stan Hack 315
7 Home Run Baker 303
8 Darrell Evans 301
9 Bob Elliott 265
10 Scott Rolen 262
RUNS CREATED/GAME RC/G
1 Chipper Jones 8.36
2 Mike Schmidt 7.22
3 Eddie Mathews 7.15
4 Wade Boggs 7.12
5 Scott Rolen 6.75
6 Harlond Clift 6.65
7 George Brett 6.58
8 Stan Hack 6.40
9 Troy Glaus 6.25
10 Home Run Baker 6.17
Just to clarify, since I seem to have misled Spike via an unclear phrasing, these are from Lee Sinins’ encyclopedia, not Baseball Reference. Which may be disloyal of me, I dunno.
Schmidt was a better fielder than Chipper and way, way better than Brett, who was particularly awful in the beginning of his career.
In the ’70s, guys were dropping bunts much more than now & Schmidt could make that bare-hand play as well as anyone.
I think Mike Schmidt is #1, and then the conversation begins. But I’ve been jumping up and down about Chipper in the all-time 3B discussion for awhile.
Small Question: Do Chipper’s 2 years in LF impact his status? I kinda don’t think so.
Sorry for the long post, but this was posted on the MJS online by Bob Wolfley on Smoltz:
Smoltz can play
During the baseball playoffs, Anderson called the Brewers-Philadelphia Phillies series for TBS, working with Joe Simpson and pitcher John Smoltz.
Anderson, a former Golf Channel host who has a single-digit golf handicap, said he was able to play a round with Smoltz, 41, an excellent player who, with the help of his friend Tiger Woods, wants to qualify for the Champions Tour after his baseball career ends.
Anderson took Smoltz, Simpson and another TBS crew member out to Erin Hills Golf Course during the off-day in Milwaukee.
“He is Tour quality,” said Anderson, referring to Smoltz’s game. “I don’t say that about a lot of people.”
“I have seen a lot of golf swings,” Anderson said. “I have seen a lot of golf shots. He hits it as good as anybody I have seen. I’m telling you. He is 330 (yards) off the tee, and he doesn’t fight a hook or fade. He hits a straight ball with power. He has all the shots. Obviously, his short game will be something he will have to step up to get to Tour qualityIt was awesome to watch him play.”
Anderson said Smoltz shot 76 at Erin Hills from the back tees, so he played the course at 7,600 yards with the wind blowing up to 20 miles an hour.
Also, Anderson said during one of the Phillies-Brewers telecasts, Woods sent text messages to Smoltz on his cell phone, making fun of him.
“It was a little unnerving to see Tiger Woods’ name pop up on John’s phone during the broadcast,” Anderson said. “But it was hilarious.
I know he’s talked about it, but how awesome would it be to see Smoltz on the Senior tour in a few years?
Brett played about 1000 games at positions other than third, mostly first and DH; I don’t think that’s done much to his ranking.
Do Chipper’s numbers here represent only the years when he played 3B? That is, did you subtract out the years in LF? And, same quetion regarding the other 3B
Of course, Brett could DH in that league.
I counted all years. If you rate them on season:
CAREER
MODERN (1900-)
3B
RUNS CREATED RC
1 Eddie Mathews 1673
2 Wade Boggs 1671
3 Mike Schmidt 1624
4 Chipper Jones 1419
5 Brooks Robinson 1343
6 Ron Santo 1328
7 George Brett 1282
8 Stan Hack 1237
T9 Eddie Yost 1210
T9 Graig Nettles 1210
RCAA RCAA
1 Eddie Mathews 652
2 Mike Schmidt 582
3 Wade Boggs 539
4 Chipper Jones 529
5 George Brett 481
6 Stan Hack 306
7 Home Run Baker 303
8 Alex Rodriguez 280
9 Ron Santo 272
10 Dick Allen 267
RUNS CREATED/GAME RC/G
1 Chipper Jones 8.35
2 Eddie Mathews 7.27
3 Mike Schmidt 7.22
4 Wade Boggs 7.13
5 George Brett 7.11
6 Scott Rolen 6.75
7 Bob Elliott 6.65
8 Harlond Clift 6.65
9 Stan Hack 6.37
10 Troy Glaus 6.24
Matt Holliday traded to Oakland, apparently. Nothing further.
From Coors Field to the Oakland Coliseum? Ouch.
Glad he’s going to the AL (and not StL or NYM).
Re: position/era adjustments… This will give you some idea of both the different hitting standards overall and the different standards at third between Mathews’ era and Chipper’s. RCAP is runs created above position.
ATLANTA BRAVES
CAREER
MODERN (1900-)
RUNS CREATED RC
1 Hank Aaron 2447
2 Chipper Jones 1668
3 Eddie Mathews 1651
4 Dale Murphy 1195
RCAA RCAA
1 Hank Aaron 1039
2 Eddie Mathews 649
3 Chipper Jones 629
4 Wally Berger 260
RCAP RCAP
1 Hank Aaron 834
2 Eddie Mathews 628
3 Chipper Jones 591
4 Wally Berger 220
Chipper’s ahead in overall RC, but 20 behind above average — and almost twice as much above position. Third basemen today hit a lot better than they did in the fifties.
ESPN was pretty late picking up the Holliday trade. Somebody was caught sleeping
Holliday going to Oakland makes me feel like it will be a little harder to fill that left field spot.
Parish,
I wanted Holliday less than any other left fielder. I figured Colorado wanted too much for somebody that wasn’t much better than Matt Diaz when you got him out of Rocky Mountain High.
The only downside is that a team that didn’t figure to be really going after a big bat, got one. So, however many more are looking, Holliday just dropped off the list.
The only downside is that a team that didn’t figure to be really going after a big bat, got one. So, however many more are looking, Holliday just dropped off the list.
I think this is what Parish was saying, and I agree with both of you.
It certainly makes it less likely that the Cards will trade Ludwick.
Coors Field certainly helps hitters, but not that much. Matt Holliday is a very good hitter in any environment.
#26 – The fact that the A’s, a team I did not think was going after such a player got Holliday is exactly what I was talking about.
28 – I figured the Cards were considering dealing Ludwick because of Colby Rasmus. I never understood the rumored trade for Holliday.
Is something going down today with the Padres? They have some announcement today or something. Is it just the Giles extension?
He’s a very good hitter, yes, but outside of Coors I doubt he’s l337.
Holliday at home, career: 357/423/645
Holliday on road, career: 280/348/455
How do people defend him not being too much of a Coors Field product? (not being sarcastic I just saw #33 and think that looks pretty significant)
I guess Devine’s the Oakland closer now, huh?
I don’t like Home/Road splits as they are averages of smaller samples. Just because he’s hit well at home doesn’t mean home is the cause. I prefer to use park effects generated from all players stats to deflate player performances to neutral levels.
Here are Holliday’s career neutralized stats from B-R.
.303/.368/.523/ .891
His career OPS+ is 131.
He’s not Mark Teixeira, but he’s far better than Matt Diaz.
But JC,
Holliday has played 5 full seasons. He has roughly 350 games at Coors and 350 games elsewhere. That isn’t a small sample. Your position is more logical. That is, that somehow he has fluked into stats this severely lopsided. However, experience tells me to be double careful of home park monsters.
For his career with Boston (12 years?), “Scary” Jim Rice had almost that big of a swing in home road stats. Hall of Famer at home. Slightly above average on the road. And clearly a right handed pull hitter with elevation can hit doubles and home runs all day in Fenway without being able to duplicate them.
Through most of Denver’s ML existence, it has produced tremendous hitting results.
Then, there is practical experience of watching players that have succeeded in Denver and haven’t or can’t duplicate it. Like Vinny Castilla.
Galaraga with the Braves (the first time) is the only Mile High / Coors Field player I remember putting up comparable numbers in a new location.
Beware the ides of Denver.
Is Holliday #15 or something?
Cliff, Vinny and Andres played in Coors back when it was the most extreme hitter’s park, like, ever. Nowadays it’s a good hitter’s park, but not as absurd as it used to be. Still, Holliday’s a whole lot better when he’s at home than when he’s not home. Maybe part of that is playing 60 games a year at PETCO, Dodger Stadium, and Pac Bell, and maybe part of that is the psychological boost you get from playing at home. But I’d wager that a lot of the explanation for Holliday’s way-inflated home stats lies in the fact that Coors is still a really, really good hitter’s park.
i’m amazed that Ken Boyer doesnt appear on any of those lists. there was a long span when the only argument about the best 3b in the NL was between Mathews and Boyer, not Santo. i guess Santo lasted a bit longer and played in a hitters park and the lists dont take defense into account but Boyer was a great player. i’d put him right behind Schmidt and Mathews.
By David O’Brien
November 10, 2008 3:50 PM | Link to this
Folks, we had something done here today by Paul Bunyon, er, Tyler Flowers today that rivaled the batting-practice bomb Flowers hit last spring at Port St. Lucie. This one today cleared the entire 50-foot batters eye in center field during batting practice before this Mesa-Peoria Javelinas game at HoHoKam Park (spring training home of the Cubs).
Considering the fence is 410 feet away, you can imagine how long a ball might travel to clear a 50 foot wall that far away.
And you also know you’ve made a good impression with folks this spring when Ryne Sandberg, a Solar Sox coach, calls you a “total package.†That’s what he called Flowers when I asked Ryno about him before today’s game. He said all the pitchers love throwing to him, that he’s solid behind the plate and only needs to work on his throws (same thing Rocket Wheeler and Flowers himself said), and that he’s a solid, all-around hitter, not just a guy swinging for fences….
Ken was:
17th in RC by a third baseman, between Pie Traynor and Gary Gaetti;
22nd in RCAA, between Heinie Groh and Eddie Yost;
35th in RC above position between two sets of ties;
43rd in RC/G between Mike Lowell (who will fall if he continues to play) and Dave Magadan.
In this case, I would say that none of these are really accurate because there’s no allowance for defense. I mean, Bobby Bonilla created more runs than Boyer and is considered a third baseman, but come on. I’d say top fifteen but not top ten.
Just got a text alert from ESPN that says the Fish traded Willingham and Olsen to the Natspos for Emilio Bonifacio and others. I’m in class and can’t really find a link though, anyone heard anything?
ESPN – Sources: Florida Marlins trade Josh Willingham, Scott Olsen to Washington Nationals
want to shorten the list of the best thirdbasemen?………..just ask how many of them ever won an MVP.
Thanks, Mac.
There are certain problems with that approach. A glance shows some third basemen who have won MVPs are: Al Rosen, Dick Allen, Bob Elliott, Ken Boyer, and Terry Pendleton. All of them were fine players, and in my opinion deserving MVPs (I won’t go into the 1991 race again) but only Boyer is a serious HOF candidate. Well, maybe Allen, but certainly not the others. A list of third basemen who have not won MVPs includes Eddie Mathews and Wade Boggs. Santo never won an MVP either, but if you ask the experts 98 percent of them would say Santo was better than Boyer and most say he’s the most deserving HOF candidate of any excluded hitter.
That’s a weird trade for the Marlins. I don’t love Bonifacio — he’s fast, but what else does he do? — and the other two prospects, RHP Philip (P.J.) Dean and 2B Jake Smolinski, are so young that it’s hard to know what to make of them. Here’s some good info. Two second base prospects and a young pitcher (who’s never pitched above A-) for a power-hitting outfielder and a talented young left-hander seems like a deal worth making, but the Nats are going to have to figure out how far away they are and how they want to leverage their 19 year olds. But I like it for the Nats, and I like it less for the Marlins.
Here are the ten major league Hall of Fame third basemen ranked by career OPS+:
Schmidt 147
Mathews 143
Brett 135
Baker 135
Boggs 130
Collins 113
Kell 111
Lindstrom 110
Traynor 107
Robinson 104
Chipper’s OPS+ is currently 145. It may go down bit if he has a few subpar years at the end of his career. Santo’s career OPS+ is 125, which would rank him 6th. Boyer’s is 115.
In my view, Chipper is not an upper echelon defender at third. Both Santo and Boyer won 5 consecutive Gold Gloves. Chipper is a better player than Santo was. Santo is the best player currently eligible, and should be elected to the Hall in this year’s Veteran’s Committee election. He should have been elected 25 years ago. Boyer should be elected too.
I agree AAR, kind of a strange move for the Fish.
The 49ers QB’s are worse than the Vols, ugh. What happened to the orgainization of Montana and Young. Hell, Jeff Garcia looks like Steve Young next to Shaun Hill!
Wow, is that really the best play Mike Martz could come up with?
meanwhile, who’s this Tyler Thigpen fella? Geez, how about his last 3 games…
710 yds, 68 yds rushing, 6 TD’s, 0 INT or Fumbles, but they are 0-3 in those games..
Preacher Roe died–there is nice obiturary in the NYT:
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/11/11/sports/baseball/11roe.html?ref=obituaries
$2,000 for a scoop in SI–those were the days….
Preacher Roe died….Here is the obit:
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/11/11/sports/baseball/11roe.html?ref=obituaries
2,000 for a scoop in SI–Those were the days….
csg,
Tyler Thigpen went to that un sung football power Coastal Carolina. I was home in Charleston and read an article about him. Nice story. Ok librarians and other scholars out there what is a Chanticleer? (Coastal mascot)
Question. Probably already asked. Do we trade a good hitting 2b for Ludwick who has had exactly one good year and is going to be 30 next year?
Johnny, in fairness, Ludwick had a pretty good year in 2007, and his year in 2008 wasn’t just good, it was superstar-level. More importantly, though, it’s not like he didn’t hit well in other seasons. He raked in the minors, but he kept getting injured and switching organizations, and he never really got the major league PT he deserved until 2007. The injury issue is, to me, a bigger concern than the track record. His minor league numbers say he can slug.
Tyler Thigpen played ball with a kid in my grad department here at state. Thigpen (along with Mike Tolbert, starting FB for the Chargers) were, I believe, both members of the inaugural class of Costal’s FB program. My buddy here at school was out in SD to watch them play this weekend. Says some lady almost tried to beat him up for cheering when Thigpen threw his first TD. 🙂
I believe a Chanticleer is a chicken of some sort.
So, we could have given up Brent Lillibridge, Brandon Hicks, and Edgar Osuna for Olsen and Willingham? I might have been interested in that.
Doesn’t seem like the Fish got much in return.
It’s a salary dump by the Marlins. They remain the Marlins. On the other hand, a Nats outfield of Dukes-Willingham-Milledge with Kearns and Pena on the bench is, for very little money, not bad at all. Bowden continues to piece together solid talent from the scrap heap.
@57 – I would have too. I am trying to stay positive with Wren, but it’s an increasingly difficult task.
While that trade would have done nothing to address our RH-power gap, I certainly wouldn’t have minded acquiring a real LF and a SP for essentially nothing. I’m shocked the Marlins couldn’t get more for those two.
Also, I don’t really put this on Wren, as there’s 28 other ML teams that also could have benefited by doing this deal (or something similar).
It’s about the team’s philosophy, not what Wren didn’t do. Ours is somewhat delusional–for the third consecutive offseason. The Braves need a lot of help, and I’d like to see some smart moves made on the cheap. Olsen/Willingham is a low-risk, potentially high-yield kind of move of which I think we should be seeing much more.
per Rosenthal…
The Braves are frustrated with the progress on the Jake Peavy talks, and will explore other options (especially once the free agent market opens Friday). Rosenthal says the Padres sent revised proposals to the Cubs and Braves yesterday, but those teams intend to stick with their offers. Will the Padres crack and make a deal before Friday?
Actually, I am glad to see that Wren is not blinking and giving into demands as I perceive Schuerholz did in the Tex trade. I do not know how much the Braves have proposed to give up in a Peavy trade. It may be too much already, but at least we are not appeasing Towers’ desire to bleed a little more talent from our system.
The Chanticleer is a chicken of some sort from Chaucer. It’s one of those things they’re sort of proud of on the tour, as if potential students are supposed to see picking a mascot from Chaucer as a selling point.
C of C, one long Miller’s Tale….
Have we talked much about next year’s pen on here?
When is Moylan expected to return?
Anything related to Chaucer reminds me of my 11th grade English teacher, Sister Gratia, a fairly humorless nun with a slight limp. We called her “The Grot.”
For an assignment, I wrote a short essay about The Clash’s London Calling LP and she made me read it to the class. Then she just stared at me. Zero response. Warm fuzzies all around.
Preacher Roe, a stalwart for Brooklyn’s Boys of Summer, died. He made to 92. Not bad.
http://tinyurl.com/68nqos
As of the end of 2008, Chipper has 353 career win shares. He has had a nice resurgence late in his career following a bad 2004 and some injuries. Since 2003, he has only had one season of 600 PA. He has produced when he’s in the lineup, by and large, but the lack of durability may hurt him a little bit in the eyes of some voters.
I’d put him behind Schmidt, Brett and Mathews. Schmidt was a devastating offensive player and the best defensive third baseman I’ve ever seen (I never saw Robinson). If you never saw Schmidt play defense, you missed something; he had a lot of athletic ability and quickness, particularly for a big man. I think Jones ranks ahead of Boggs and Baker.
Was Schmidt at his prime better defensively than Rolen?
I think that Chipper is a little ahead of Eddie now, making him the greatest third baseman — and second-greatest hitter — in Braves history. (Mathews’ post-Braves career really doesn’t add any value.) There’s a huge gap from Aaron to them, and a huge from them to whoever’s in fourth… Their career numbers are pretty equivalent. Mathews hit more homers, Jones hit for a higher average. Both walked a lot, Mathews a little more; they will be 1-2 in franchise history sometime in 2009, when Chipper passes Aaron:
ATLANTA BRAVES
CAREER
WALKS BB
1 Eddie Mathews 1376
2 Hank Aaron 1297
3 Chipper Jones 1242
I would give the edge on defense to Chipper, though this would be controversial. Neither was a dominant defensive player.
However, there is one big thing that doesn’t show up in any of those stats. Eddie Mathews played in 16 career postseason games (all, obviously, in the World Series) and hit .20o/.385/.360. Chipper has played in 92 postseason games and hit .288/.411/.459. That is fairly enormous. He’s played in the same number of World Series games as Mathews, and hit .273/.391/.436.
AAR @ 68,
I would say among the great 3B’s (not including pure defensive specialists) that I have seen (66 forward) that Brooks Robinson was the best. He seemingly single handedly won a World Series (1972?) with fielding and batting. He was usually a complementary offensive player, but really exploded in that series.
Rolen might have been a little better defensively before the rounds of injuries started than Schmidt, but not much. It was truly amazing to see a guy built like Schmidt (who I think was one of the first “weight lifting” players and compares maybe to a slightly less chiseled version of A-Rod) make the plays he did.
He didn’t do it too much, but Schmidt could legitimately play shortstop.
For that low of a price, I too would have been interested in seeing if Willingham could get back to 20hrs and if Olsen could consistently stay in the low 90’s. Would have been a cheap way to get some right handed pop and another starter (despite the past behavior issues and that he seems to have not lived up to his potential thus far). I would have expected them to be able to get more for Olsen than that.
Alex:
It’s a matter of opinion, but for my money Schmidt was better than Rolen at their respective primes. The difference at their primes was not great. Both had a lot of range and great hands. Schmidt was as athletic as a lot of shortstops; Rolen has tremendous agility and a great arm.
Schmidt also was more durable and will probably have had a longer effective career than Rolen, who seems to have entered the decline phase of his career. Schmidt won ten gold gloves to Rolen’s seven. Rolen’s not done yet, but I don’t know if he’s going to win another GG.
Rolen is good, or was before he got hurt — but he never would have sniffed a gold glove from 1965-1985. He just doesn’t compare to Brooks, the Boyers, Schmidt, Nettles, Evans, Rodriguez, etc.
DOB confirmed what Rosenthal reported: The Braves are giving the Pads until Friday to take their offer; after that, they’re going full steam ahead on other pursuits.
per Buster Olney now…
Olney says the Braves and Padres are making progress, despite Ken Rosenthal’s report of Atlanta’s frustration. Olney says the Braves would send Yunel Escobar and Gorkys Hernandez to the Padres, plus Charlie Morton or Jo-Jo Reyes. They’re haggling over one last player, with the Padres eyeing southpaw Jeff Locke.
The Cubs are still in the mix, and a third team would be included to flip pitching to San Diego. One way or another, the Cubs would give up Josh Vitters and others.
They want more? Tell them to shove it. Yunel is too much.
Brooks Robinson’s magical World Series was 1970 vs. Cincinnati. He took the WS MVP. He also was an AL MVP in 1964.
The way I read it, Mac, is that the haggling is over which player the fourth will be, not whether there will be a fourth.
The Cubs’ willingness to include Vitters makes their offer look a lot better.
Corky Miller would be a good 4th player
…for a 3-man team.
What do you mean Yunel is too much, Mac? I’m one of the bigger Yunel guys here, and I’m on record saying that I think Yunel should be untouchable, but I thought I understood you to say that, because of the scarcity of true aces, Yunel himself wouldn’t be too high a price to pay for Peavy.
I’m curious to know what the “other plans” are if the deal doesn’t go down. Or if that means Wren’s going to have to go full steam ahead on making other plans.
c. shorter,
My guess is we enter the A.J. Burnett sweepstakes and re-start the KJ-for-Ludwick talks if we don’t land Peavy.
Maybe not “too much”, but you don’t fill one hole by opening up another. Yunel is probably the second-most-valuable player on the team after McCann. Arguably he’s harder to replace; the Braves have Flowers, but nothing like a major league shortstop in the minors.
#81- HA, love it. I just think if they want a 4th to be added, he’d be perfect
Esco, Prado, Ludwick, Burnett >>> Peavy, KJ, unknown SS, unknown LF
should the braves look to move Flowers to 1B?
I continue to be surprised by the fact that Flowers’ name has not appeared in the Peavy rumors. I’m guessing he’ll be the centerpiece to another big trade. His value is sky-high, and he’s completely blocked in Atlanta.
84 — Stu, I would assume the same. I guess I’m just hoping for a good surprise. Probably shouldn’t be.
Stu, I’m surprised as well. Is Flowers perceived as being too raw still? I don’t get it.
I think most people believe he’s going to be a first baseman.
This whole Peavy situation is like when Mr. Burns bought his plant back from the Germans. They were desparate to sell – advantage Burns. If the Pods don’t like Escobar, Gorky, and pupu platter pitcher of their choosing, tell ’em to go stuff it.
I was also thinking about the A’s acquiring Matt Holliday. I wonder (somewhat tongue in cheek) if he did it out of spite of Boras. “Hey Scottie, I am going to take one of your prime clients, the year before he hits FA, and stick him in this hitters’ hell hole for 2009. That should drive down demand for Mr. Holliday after he puts up a .278 and 23 HR clip for a last place team.” Beane seems to have some leverage over Mr. Boras now.
I’m terrified that we’re going to spend a lot of money on a replacement SS, which will prevent us from really adding much in the way of another starter or a real power-hitting OF.
Maybe Flowers would be a good start for a JJ Hardy offer.
I agree, if Miluwakee is looking to trade Hardy, then we should explore that. Other than that, if we can aquire a power hitting OF, then having a Rafeal Belliard’ish SS wouldnt hurt the team that much.
No, Beane thinks that the Angels are ripe for the taking and that the Rangers and Mariners are beneath contempt. He’s going to import some more one-and-outs and after the season he’ll let them walk and pocket the draft picks.
From Escobar to a Rafael Belliard type on a team that sorely lacked power?
That’s why I am now in the take-it-or-leave-it camp on the Peavy trade. I agree that you should not create another hole to fill one, especially if you have to include other valuable trading chips in the process.
Hicks in 2010? Is there a chance?
Are the Padres serious? Can someone tell me if Peavy is worth all the Padres are asking?
I believe we HAVE to do the Peavy deal. Cheap #1 starter for the next 4-5 years. You HAVE to do it. I say give up Yunel (I love the guy), and try to get Furcal in free-agency.
But I don’t think we should have to give up more that Yunel, Gorky, and Reyes.
Honestly, if you’re in the AL West right now, how can you not try to contend with what amounts to a 3-team division?
Good luck then Oakland and hope that the Angels don’t resign Tex. They’ll still win that division next year by double digits.
I think the Peavy deal could be important when it comes to luring free agents.
As for Flowers, both Keith Law and Joe Sheehan have mentioned how shocked they are that he isn’t in the Peavy discussion. I still hold out hope that he comes up to play first 4 days out of 5 and catch the 5th, with McCann doing the opposite. It’ll never happen, but it’d be nice.
#97 – I understand your Philosophy but it far too costly. If you assume we’ll pick up his option year your looking at $16 mil per for Peavy. Furcal would cost you around $13-15 with about a 4 year deal, not to mention the injury problems. Thats about $30 mil per for these two guys. For that price why not keep Escobar and go after CC? Or go after two FA pitchers….this is why you have to trade from your strength positions and unfotunately our SS position isnt one of them. We are creating a bigger hole, by making this deal. If we have a backup plan for a cheap reliable SS, not named Renteria, then move forward.
by doing something with this strategy, your basically paying $30 mil for one pitcher. If you can trade KJ, because we have a capable backup at the position, then everything is a lot more flexible
Even at $16 mil per for Peavy – that is WAYYYY below market value for a true #1. The only other true #1 available is CC, and he will get at least 6 mil more per year. That could go towards getting another free agent starter. Yes, you leave a big hole – so go fill it. Just like you have 2 big holes at starting pitcher to go fill now. Peavy will help this team much more than Yunel would. In my mind, it is easier to replace a SS than a true #1 starter. Especially in a short series in the post season.
Tim Lincecum wins NL Cy Young.
Brandon Webb second.
TL: 18-5, 227 IP/182 H/84 BB/2.62 ERA
BW: 22-7, 226 IP/206 H/65 BB/3.30 ERA
Also…
TL: 265 Ks
BW: 183 Ks
Amazing that Webb finished ahead of Santana.
Well deserved for Lincecum, but a tough pill to swallow for Webb.
The wait is over. Peavy is a Cub. Pie, Marshall and Theirot for Jake Peavy. Man the Pads got screwed.
http://www.desipio.com/?p=1782
Let’s wait until we have something more than a bulletin board post, okay?
Biff=1shoe=unreliable?
Thanks Stu.
In spite of him being on the Mutts, I still think it should have been Santana. Better ERA, pitched more innings, and while none of them made the playoffs, Santana did step up when the season was on the line.
He was 7-0 and a 1.87 ERA in August and September when Webb faded and Lincecum was two months out of the race
Lincecum was the best pitcher in the league. I’m glad they picked him.
@113
He might be the most talented pitcher in the league, but the best? Santana performed when the season was on the line and was dominant. That is what I consider when I think of the best pitcher in the league. Lincecum never faced that pressure, and the differences between their peripherals, IMO, isn’t great enough to compensate for that fact.
I’m a believer in coming up big in big spots, but it wasn’t Lincecum’s fault that his team was lousy.
Unlike the nebulously defined MVP, the Cy Young Award is based on performance & his was a tick better than Santana’s.
Lincecum’s ERA+ was 167. Santana’s was 166.
While it’s not Lincecum’s fault his team was horrible, a lot of baseball is based upon opportunity. Santana had that opportunity; Lincecum may not have, but that shouldn’t marginalize the comparative circumstances under which Santana excelled.
I believe that the manner of that performance is worth more than 1 point of ERA+
But the Ks! Lincecum was more dominant.
Well, if we’re going to treat Cy Young like the MVP, then C.C. Sabathia should’ve won it.
11-2, 130 IP, 106 H, 128K, 25 BB, 1.65 ERA (ERA+ 260)
Sabathia’s year was just cartoony. Unbelievable — sorta like Greg Maddux in 1994, pre-strike:
16-6, 202 IP, 156 K, 31 BB, 1.56 ERA, (ERA+ 271)
But no, really, Lincecum was better than Santana. According to Hardball Times, Lincecum had 27 Win Shares (22 WSAB), as compared to Santana’s 21 (16 WSAB). Linc’s DERA was 2.84, compared to Santana’s 3.09. He had 10.51 K/9, compared to Santana’s 7.91. He was just… gooder.
Let’s take defense into account, shall we? Lincecum’s most-normal double play combination was a 36 year old second baseman and a 41 year old shortstop. Other than Aaron Rowand and Randy Winn, the rest of the team was mostly AAAA rookies. If he’d had a real team behind him, Lincecum’s ERA would look a lot better. His Fielding-Independent ERA is leaps and bounds better than the other contenders’.
Biff=1shoe=unreliable?
Yes.
http://tinyurl.com/6zwzds
Seriously, it is a blog post from some breathless Cubs’ fan. Hardly reliable. The Cubs’ offer still sucks.
Herb Score dead at 75.
Meanwhile, Santana had Gold Glove winner David Wright behind him.
I’m not saying that the Mets defense was great, other than maybe Beltran, but at least they had a team of fully accredited major league baseball players and not a team full of Corky Millers* and Julio Francos**.
*AAAA players
**Really really old guys
Herb Score sounds like the potential subtitle of a third Harold & Kumar installment.
I miss Julio. Can’t we make him a coach already?
Also, Stu, nice.
The Indians sure had some pitchers in the 1950s.
If the Padres took Pie, Marshall and Theriot from the Cubs instead of our offer of Escobar, Hernandez/Schafer and Reyes/Morton, that would be a truly retarded decision.
I say Peavy is a Brave come Friday
Just got off the phone with my barber. A third and fourth team have been added.
ATL gets: Peavy and Jhonny Peralta
SD gets: Escobar, Chris Perez and Ludwick
STL gets: KJ, Schafer and Rafel Perez
Cle gets: Tyler Flowers, Giles, and J Jo Reyes
Wow, what an awful trade for the Braves, Smitty. Like, truly awful.
Yeah, you guys make good points. The defense is telling and the win shares are especially revealing.
It’s just I watched Santana’s starts at the end of the year. The Mets were collapsing, and while that generally puts me in a good mood, it was impressive to watch him come out, again and again, and be that stopper. He carried the team.
However, even if, with all the advancements in measuring baseball performance, that type of dominance under those conditions can’t really be quantified, does that mean that it is not worth anything?
I understand the arguments that you guys have made, but in spite of them, I just can’t discount Santana’s body of work and the circumstances under which is was composed. I still think he was the best pitcher in the National League last season, and thus, deserving of the Cy Young.
@ 130
That would have to be one of the most god awful decisions Wren could ever make. KJ, Escobar, Schafer, Flowers and Jo-Jo for Peavy and Peralta? No thanks. Let’s hope it’s not true.
Smitty, I love your barbar’s creativity. I hope Wren doesn’t talk to your barbar for advice!
All of smitty’s barber’s creativity goes into trade scenarios. That’s why he only gives bowl cuts.
@66:
That was heroic, ububba.
In Catholic school, you win your battles where you can. It’s not like I could get away with an essay on Sabbath, Bloody Sabbath.
FWIW, the Atlanta Hawks are 6-0, folks, including 4-0 on the road.
No doubt it will all end in tears, and I’m really concerned about the Hawks’ ability to continue winning without Josh Smith, but I don’t know if I’m ready for a world where the Braves are the worst major sports franchise in Atlanta. (Hockey is not a major sport, y’all.)
I love this Falcons team, BTW. I still doubt they’ll make the playoffs, but they’re trying, by God.
Gotta love those Hawks. Al Horford is one damn good player.
I love this Falcons team as well. Matt Ryan;s performance has been completely beyond anyone’s expectation. The trio of Ryan, Turner, and White are fantastic.
I think I will love the 2010 Braves team when the young talents start arriving at Atlanta. I hope Wren will keep all of them as he has pledged. I wonder if McCann and Flowers can share the catcher and first base positions so that they can play more games during the season. I believe they can always shift Freddie Freeman to leftfield like what they did with Klesko (that was not an ideal situation for sure).
We are losing some of the more interesting players from the 1950s. Herb Score died and here is a nice obit in the NY Times:
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/11/12/sports/baseball/12score.html?ref=obituaries
Yesterday I was unable to post the obit of Preacher Roe….
I haven’t liked the Falcons much since the William Andruws/Bartkowski days. The Glanville era turned me way off. However the story of this coach and the way this team is playing is compelling.
I am willing to include Escobar as the center piece of a package for Peavey but it does make me nervous. Upon examining the total reported package I simply don’t understand why the Padres haven’t taken it. If they take what the Cubs are offering instead then Towers is retarded.
Alex Remington, Ludwick did have a hell of a year last season and KJ’s streakiness can be maddening but Ludwick has such a short resume that it makes me hear statistical outlier over and over again.
I thought Pujols was a fluke his rookie year
Even if the trade falls through, I gotta wonder what Escobar will think about the fact that the Braves are clearly willing to trade him.
When in reality it was Pujols crappy sophomore year that was a fluke… miserable sub .400 OBP, only 34 HRs and meager .314 BA, OPS of only .955… lucky for the Cards he pulled out of THAT downward spiral.
But the Thrashers are only two wins (4 points) out of first place in the division. Hawks, Falcons and Thrashers are all working hard to make the Braves the worst Atlanta team for 2008.
Rosenthal just put up that the Friars want us to replace Gorkys with Flowers. Figures.
Re: Marlins/Nats Trade
I have to say, I applauded Steve Phillips for RIPPING THE MARLINS on “Mike & Mike” this morning. A pure salary dump. Phillips talked abotu the fact that the Marlins are getting about $30 million from other teams in revenue sharing and are supposed to be using it to keep some semblance of a team. It’s embarrassing that a team already UNDER the $30 million threshold trades away to solid and inexpensive players like Olson and Willingham, just to be even more under payroll.
At what point does Bud grow a sack and simply take that franchise away from South Florida and MOVE IT? I do find the Marlins actions more despicable than teams trying to buy their way into the post season every year like the Red Sox because at least those teams are trying. The Marlins have shown they have no interest in trying and would rather just be a $20 million team every year.
I hate the Florida Marlins.
(and the trade in the division no less!)
Re: the Peavy deal
Good for Frank Wren for holding his ground and even better for Jake Peavy filling in the missing part of Wren’s brain – why in hell are we discussing ANY deal to include Yunel? There are basically two players who shouldn’t even be discussed: Yunel and Tommy Hanson.
It is downright impossible to find young Shosrt stops who can do what Yunel do and play stellar defense. Yunel would be Jake Peavy’s best friend.
Kevin Towers is being a pig and he knows, even with Hanson and Yunela out of a deal, he’d get a much better package of young players from the Braves than Cubs. And he knows Peavy wants to pitch here.
There’s been a question that about which I’m not sure how I feel and was wondering what everyone else thought.
The Peavy trade, as it is composed, would require the Braves to send Escobar, Hernandez, and Morton/Reyes. However, if you had to choose, who would you send if the choice was:
Hanson or Escobar?
Can’t make up my mind…at all.
Ethan,
Neither. I’d tell Kevin Towers to take a leap off a building.
Jake Peavy is a 27 year old ace and 2007 CY Young winner, under contract (and controlled) for 4 more years, and one of the best starters in Baseball.
That’s about as good as you can get in a trade.
But NOT at the expense of the best young SS in Baseball and/or the best young starting pitcher. A package of Gorkys or Schaefer, Morton AND Reyes and one or two other farm pieces would be a really good deal for Towers.
Neither can I, Ethan.
Alex,
Welcome back! One thing: It’s been established that if we get Peavy, Yunel is going to San Diego.
The next couple days are gonna be interesting.
Welcome back, Alex…
I agree. It just seems like the Escobar ship has already sailed, (assuming the trade goes through) and I was wondering if he was more valuable than Hanson or vice versa.
It does seem like Towers is playing us and Cubs against each other. I guess the question is how far he’ll take the brinkmanship?
The Marlins have been trying to extort a stadium out of the South Florida public for years and this is just the latest episode. The owners plead povery but they are making a killing from the combination of low payroll and revenue from TV and revenue sharing. It doesn’t matter to them that no one comes to the games. If Bud had balls he would do something but he, like every other commissioner, is pretty much a lackey of the owners. He is not the Commissioner of Baseball, he is more like the CEO of a corporation responsible to the owners. God forbid one of these guys actually ponies up his own money to build a stadium. The Steinbrenners are jackasses in many ways but they are absolutely correct to be pissed at having to give away their money, which they use to actually try to win, to teams that couldn’t care less. (Of course, the Steinbrenners are doing their own ripping off of the public with the new Yankee Stadium.) I have a friend in South Florida and he, like many others there, are absolutely fed up with the Marlins and wouldn’t care if they moved. I’m sure that will happen as soon as they can find some nitwit officials in another city willing to build them a ball park.
Ethan at 147 and 151,
I would hold Yunel and deal Hanson (unless Braves are hiding more of an injury problem with Yunel than we know).
Why?
1. It is pitching versus pitching.
2. When you trade players not under contract, all you are trading are unused pre free agent years. Escobar has 5 and Hanson has up to 6 2/3.
3. Escobar is, as a proven Major Leaguer, 90% likely to be at or above what I will describe as “low range Escobar”. That would be (offensively) .280 BA, .360 OBP, .420 SLG (moderately above average for a shortstop). That would be top 4 or so defesively. That player would take a 5 yer commitment at 9 per year to get it done; however, low range Escobar will only cost 20 mill.
4. As good as Hanson seems to be, he hasn’t proven himself at ML level. Look at the Yankee’s Hughes. Can’t miss pitcher. But, so far, he is missing. Jo Jo Reyes has dominated AA and AAA, but most on here aren’t confident that he can hold down #5 spot next year. Chuck James flashed and then crashed.
5. Hanson won’t out produce Peavy in 09 or 10 unless it is because of a Peavy injury. That is, the Major League team will have more wins with Esco at short and Peavy on the mound than with some other character at short and Peavy on the mound.
6. Even great young pitchers aren’t usually great the first few years. Think about Smoltz and Glavine.
Overall, if the CENTER of the trade is Hanson, the Braves are better off. You stil have Jo Jo and Charlie to try to make a 4 or better starter out of, you still have a great shortstop, and, you may be able to deal KJ for Ludwick (which, even if Ludwick is partial “flash” he still is probably a 900 OPS righthanded hitter that the Braves desparately need).
Cliff – “Even great young pitchers aren’t usually great the first few years. Think about Smoltz and Glavine.”
Think about Lincecum.
I’m steadfastly holding on to my position that trading any player who is either currently starting on our MLB roster, or likely to be starting on the MLB club in 2010 should not be traded for Peavy. I don’t mean that to include the starters who need to be upgraded.
We should only be entertaining trade proposals for players in the farm system that are blocked by other better prospects, or current major leaguers. The team is not Jake Peavy away from being a playoff contender and it is certainly not Jake Peavy minus Yunel Escobar away from being a playoff contender.
The team is two high quality starting pitchers and two high quality outfield hitters away from being a playoff team. Hanson appears to be on pace to fill one of those starting pitcher needs in the near future. Likewise Schafer appears to be on pace to fill an outfield spot. Based on that, I’d say the team is only one pitcher and one outfielder away from being competitive to win the division in 2010 and 2011. Those spots can EASILY be filled via free agency this season and remain filled over the course of the next several years.
There just isn’t any need to open new holes just to plunk Peavy into an existing hole in the puzzle. Peavy is awesome to be sure but a trade should not be made if it doesn’t make sense.
It is exceedingly difficult for me to find any sense in trading Escobar given the quality and cost of available replacements for him, as compared to the quality and cost of alternatives for Peavy. This is compounded when you throw in minor leaguers who fill positions of need on the MLB club.
A couple of things:
@142 – I think Escobar should feel pretty good that the Braves decided to keep him when it could have netted them an ace like Peavy;
@146 – I believe that the situation in S. Fla. is abysmal too, but I don’t know that the team needs to be removed from the Miami area as much as ownership needs to be either punished or forced to sell the team to someone who is willing to invest in it.
That is all, (yawning), Did we get Peavy yet?
Hanson. The fact that we’re hanging onto Hanson so tight that we’re about to include Yunel is ludicrous. We have no idea how good Hanson’s going to be, at all. He very well could be a complete bust. The number of can’t-miss pitching prospects that have crashed and burned is truly staggering. Does anybody remember Bruce Chen? Plus, for it to be not worthwhile for us, Hanson would have to turn out to be as good or better than Peavy, which doesn’t seem exceptionally likely. I take the known over the unknown pretty much every single time. Which is why I don’t understand why everybody on here is so upset when we trade prospects. I’m pretty sure I can count on one hand the number of prospects we’ve traded that I later wished we had back. Jason Schmidt, Adam Wainwright…… Vinny Castilla in his prime, maybe? Although by that point, we had Chipper, so really probably not. Go with the known quantity, especially when it’s a pitcher for a pitcher.
BA‘s 2009 Rays Top 10 Prospects list is out, and we have a revised version of David Price’s weaknesses (for the 2008 version, see here):
Note that “lack of failure” has been added to the previous list, which included only “lack of experience”.
He’s so weak.
Plus, for it to be not worthwhile for us, Hanson would have to turn out to be as good or better than Peavy, which doesn’t seem exceptionally likely.
For a team with a limited budget, this statement is not remotely true. Would you rather have an ace taking up 15% of your payroll or a #2 (or even a #3) taking up .004% of your payroll?
While I think Nick makes a fair point that Yunel is more of a proven commodity to lose than Hanson, every indicator is that Tommy Hanson is going to be a pitching stud.
But to be honest, I’m even more loathe to lose Yunel Escobar. We have so many holes in the lineup (like the entire outfield, for example) that to also have to replaace an All Star level 20-something SS is just too much to replace.
If I thought the Braves could bring back Furcal for a few years, I could live with the Yunel loss more.
Thanks Stu and ububba…
Agreed 155,
Gaining Peavy is an exercise in wheel spinning, essentially he’s replacing Tim Hudson’s production, compound that with the loss of Escobar and we are a weaker team. I advocate putting together a package of less important parts (Franceuor, Prado, one of the center fielders, JoJo Reyes, Parr, Morton) to get someone like Harang or Gil Meche. And then still have the pieces to get a Cardinals outfielder and still have money to sign a Lowe, Burnett or Dempster in addition to retaining Smoltzy’s and maybe a discounted Hampton’s services.
Furcal? Why? Trading for Peavy is really only designed to get us an ace pitcher who costs less than most other aces. Why accomplish that by replacing our good shortstop who makes less than other good shortstops with an overpriced one. Why not just get an overpriced ace?
I just saw Harang’s 08 stats, scratch that from the record, but you get the idea.
#162 – on the same page with you. You could keep Yunel and get CC for the same cost if not cheaper than Peavy and injury prone Furcal. This is why you should typically trade from your strength positions, not somewhere that your lacking depth.
With that being said, I dont think the Braves would go after Furcal
Because Furcal can replace Yunel’s production and his defense better than Khalil Greene can. I don’t love the idea of bringing Furcal back and I am wholeheartedly against trading Yunel – I am frankly stunned that Wren would even consider dealing him and Peavy’s been trying to shake the logic tree and say that “why would I want to come to a team that’s been made even weaker because of my arrival”?
That’s what the Braves seem to be missing. We have no outfield. We’ve replaced Mark Teixeira with Casey Kotchman. And now we’re talking about say replacing Yunel Escobar with either Martin Prado or Khalil Greene? Yuck. What a horrible lineup and defense.
And, there’s still NO guarantee we’re going to A) be able to pry Ryan Ludwick from the Cards and B) I know everyone’s now in love with Ludwick, but what the heck did he ever do prior to 2008? Why is everyone so sure he’s going to hit 37 home runs again?
I look at Ryan Ludwick and I think it smells like a Brady Anderson, one time wonder with chemical assistance job.
@164
I don’t think that the Yankees are going to let themselves get outbid on Sabathia. They have 80MM coming off the books, and I get the feeling that Steinbrenner’s ego will write a check that unfortunately, he will be able to cash.
Right, I just want the trade to make sense, and that might depend on other plans the Braves have. Stu mentioned JJ Hardy. If he could be acquired for lower level prospects, or blocked prospects then that would go along way toward making sense out of giving up Escobar for Peavy.
On the contrary, Harang’s 2007 was entirely the product of having Dusty Baker as a manager.
Get him out of there and you’ll see a return to his previous levels.
If we were to pick up Peavy and lose Escobar we’d be looking at:
Orlando Cabrera or Cesar Izturis. Both are defensive wizards, Cesar would cost us very little but can’t really hit a lick. Cabrera is a pretty good and underrated all around player and seems to be on a playoff contender every year, but I would imagine he’d cost 8-10MM per for 3 or 4 years.
I’m not in favor of a Peavy deal involving Escobar unless the Escobar replacement is costing us $4 million or less per year. I would much rather go with Infante or Lillibridge than with Furcal or Cabrera or, God forbid, Jack Wilson.
Hardy would be ideal and would make the Peavy deal clearly worth doing, but I have no idea whether we have what the Brewers are looking for. Gorkys + Morton/Reyes? Add Prado?
@168
agreed,
I’m a firm believer in adding depth to our outfield and rotation. We can’t afford to put so much into one player who we could lose for a season or two. In my mind if we add some number two or three starters to our rotation without mortgaging our future, we’ll be giving guys like Jurjens and Hanson time to develop into the aces that we need, meanwhile keeping our position depth strong and giving us a good shot at making a legitimate title run in 10 or 11.
Is Hardy even said to be available? I can’t imagine them trading an inexpensive star player who is under team control for several more years. It would probably take a package comparable to Peavy’s to get a guy like that.
He’s been “available” since last year’s trade deadline. Their top prospect, Alcides Escobar, is a shortstop who could play right now, apparently, and they’ve been willing to deal Hardy if it nets them something good.
He wouldn’t come cheaply, but he wouldn’t require a Peavy-like package, either.
Limited payroll? We have $40 million to spend this offseason. Our payroll is around $100 million and will likely be over that next year. We do not have an unlimited payroll, but we aren’t owned by AOL anymore. We’re not the Florida Marlins. We don’t have to forego having an ace and instead have a #2 and two #3s for payroll reasons. And yes, I would rather have an ace taking up 15% of my payroll than a #2 or 3 taking up whatever your number was. Which is to say, I’d rather have an ace than three #3s.
And, all you people who are worried about money, do you realize what a bargain Peavy would be for that caliber of pitcher? We might wind up having to pay more to A.J. Burnett if we signed him. We would certainly have to pay more (probably at least 10 percent more) to get Sabathia. This is about as low-cost as an ace is going to get. If you’re worried about payroll on this thing, there will never be a situation in which you want to trade for an All-Star player.
I’d rather trade a pitcher who *might* be really, really good than trade a shortstop who *IS* really, really good.
#165, Ludwick is a former top ranked prospect who picked up some bad injuries and bounced around from minor league team to minor league team.
The talent was always there, it just seems that staying healthy was a problem.
He’ll probably never repeat this year, but I think he could be counted on to be a good outfield slugger.
The word from sportswriters on the KJ for Ludwick deal is that we’d be the guys asking for prospects from them to make the deal more even.
#176
In the few years we’ve had KJ, I have not been overly impressed when he goes into 6 week long offensive hybernations. I would trade KJ straight up for Ludwick – if the Cards tossed in a prospect or two, even better.
Escobar is the middle infielder I desperately want to keep. I could care less about KJ.
Stu,
I would take Furcal over Lillibridge. I would take you playing short over Lillibridge.
Alex R.,
I couldn’t agree with you more about KJ. I think Ludwick for KJ straight up would be awesome.
I think another key to our success is to keep some of the payroll flexibility afforded to us this season for next season after watching our current wave of minor league talent in action.
I agree with Alex totally about Yunel — welcome back from me too, by the way — but not about KJ. I definitely think Yunel is the more important of the two, but I’m a Kelly fan too.
Even though I hate it when KJ disappears for a month at a time, he balances that by carrying the team the next month, and he’s an already very good hitter who’s entering his offensive prime. If, as Stu always points out, he gets even better, he’ll be a real force in the middle of our lineup. He’s a lot better than you think.
I am a big Jake Peavy fan; however, considering what they are demanding for him, I transitioning to the point where I would rather spend 32 MM on Burnett and Sheets, keep Escobar and trade KJ (or whoever) for Ludwick. While that’s a definite injury risk, it’s not as if Peavy isn’t one.
Plus, the integrity of the minor league system is pretty much kept for a potential mid-season acquisition.
I’d also still like to spin Francoeur for Mark Teahen, but that might be just wishful thinking.
A potential midseason acquisition which nobody will be in favor of because it would mean giving up our precious prospects and getting older and adding more payroll and blah blah blah blah… I find it very difficult to believe that anyone would come available in midseason that would have the impact that Peavy would. Hell, I’m fairly sure that there isn’t anyone we could sign over the offseason who would have the impact that Peavy would (arguably Sabathia, but there’s no way we’re signing him anyway, so the argument is pretty much pointless). This deal absolutely needs to be made. I’m not gonna say at any cost, but let me put it this way: There is no cost that has been seriously mentioned yet (and that includes both with Escobar as the centerpiece and with Hanson as the centerpiece) that would not be worth it. Hell, there isn’t really a cost that has been mentioned yet that has been worth pondering for more than a couple minutes, in my opinion.
Nick,
Is Peavy worth more than Burnett + Escobar? Without even mentioning the additional players given up.
The issue isn’t that Peavy’s not good. The question is how much actual value does he bring if you are significantly weakening your club in other areas to acquire him.
As for the midseason, who the hell knows?
The Most Overused Braves Title of all Time
AAR,
Thanks 🙂
I realize acquiring Peavy and having a healthy Smoltz with Jurrgjens at the top of the rotation, along with (assuming) a healthy bullpen with the likes of Gonzo, Soriano and Moylan, puts our pitching staff right up there and based on that alone, mixes us right in with the Phillies for the division.
I mean, look at the Phils – they won it all on the back of really one great starting pitcher in Hamels and Peavy certainly is a match for Hamels. And then factor in we may add another starter and get Huddy back in August.
But all that being said, it’s no point if you are left with a decimated joke of a limneup that removes Escobar, the true table setter, from the top of it and removes his stellar defense. I just don’t see how you can equally replace Escobar.
Now if Frank Wren has signings and trades lined up to get a quality replacement SS (like Furcal) and add at least 2 big outfield bats such as Ludwick and someone else – fine. But the Phillies have a great lineup and even if we have a deeper rotation behind Peavy than they do behind Hamels, their lineup will be infinitely better, especially if we don’t replace Yunel properly and still have 2 or 3 outfield holes.
As for Jeff Francouer, I’d trade him for a half eaten hot dog. As Mac has pointed out to me that Dayton Moore is inexplicably in love with Frenchy, I’d do cartwheels if we got anyone of value from them.
(I did pose this question to Mac the other day – are we 100% SURE that Wren is NOT in love with Francouer anymore?)
“slick fielding second baseman”
I know he’s not as bad as made out, but that did make me laugh.
I think we’re pretty much on the verge, if we haven’t already, of saying, “here’s our offer, it’s on the table until Friday.”
On Lincecum’s Cy and amazing season: has anybody asked if he’s going to become Steve Avery? He seems to be that Avery-esque phenom who blows you away as a kid after a passable rookie stint… I just hope for his sake that he hangs around for a while longer than Avery did.
If, IF! we were to trade Yunel in a package for Peavy, do you think we could send KJ and something (Flowers/Frenchy(!)) to the Brewers for Hardy and Rickie Weeks??
The Brewers could put KJ at 2B and bring up Alcides Escobar for SS. We could play Hardy at SS and Weeks in LF (or 2B if you really want to). The bet there is that Weeks can blossom as a hitter with his fielding difficulties relieved.
(For the record, I prefer to stand pat here and keep our prospects unless there’s a Hanson for Peavy straight up offer or something like it.)
I’m very worried about Linc and arm troubles. 227 IP at the age of 24, two years after being drafted, all those strikeouts…
Re: Lincecum
I wouldn’t be shocked at all if he went Avery. Then again, I’m never shocked when pitchers get hurt. That’s what they do. That’s also why I’d rather trade Hanson than Escobar.
I didn’t think Roy Oswalt would last because he’s such a slight guy with a violent delivery, and he’s stayed strong. Lincecumb could last.
Great article on Lincecum:
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2008/writers/tom_verducci/07/01/lincecum0707/index.html
I think he was the best pick for the 2008 NL CY Young and will continue to be in future Cy Young discussions for years to come.
Tommy Hanson Doing Work
Tuned in just in time to e-witness another Flowers HR.
I truly believe we can sign or trade for just one sub peavy caliber pitcher and field a pretty competitive rotation in 2009. Especially if Smoltz is ready to go and Hampton signs on the cheap.
Burnett/Lowe/Dempster
Smoltz/Hampton
Jurrjens
Campillo
Hanson
Medlen/Parr/Reyes/Morton
Our bullpen is primed to be our best in years and our lineup could conceivably be upgraded without losing both middle infielders.
I’m sorry, but I just don’t see how nobody here would not be willing to part with Esco for Peavy. Pitching wins championships. Period. I don’t think we had a shortstop nearly as good as Esco for our entire 14 year run, and we were fine. But what we did have was the best starting rotation in all of baseball every year (minus maybe the last 4). Get back to that philosophy and I think we would be right there again. You don’t even have to consider next year – look at 2010 (Peavy, Hudson, Other Free Agent from this year, Jurrjens, Hanson). Now that is unreal. I don’t believe there is a single shortstop in baseball that is worth what a true #1 starter is.
Um… the Braves pretty much always got good offense from shortstop (Blauser and Furcal). One of the strengths of the team was above-average offense up the middle.
1. Why bring up Gold Gloves won when discussing defense? The Gold Glove is probably more useless than the error for determining who is a good defender.
2. Are people using “need RH power” as a stand in for “need to hit LH pitching better”? I wonder what baseball would be like if LH batters could hit LH pitchers. That would be so klazy.
Hate King, that’s a great article. Lil uh-oh towards the bottom, though, where Linc’s dad (a pitching mechanics nerd) says:
That’s interesting. I always thought of Prior as having excellent mechanics, and that he got alot of his power from his lower body.
Peavy on the other hand . . . It would not surprise me if he threw a pitch and his arm split at the elbow leaving the catcher to receive the ball being gripped by Jake’s lower right arm.
Stupid Hanson, giving up another run! At this rate, his ERA is going to be 1.00 before the league ends….
Sorry, I was a bit young when Blauser was playing. I never really saw him as an offensive force (maybe that’s because you, or at least me, only really recognize superstars when you are a kid). Far be it from me to argue if he was though – you guys would definately know better than me.
Flowers now has 2 homers on the day and 9 in the AFL in 61 AB’s.
Not too bad.
Wait…Flowers now has 3 homers/7 RBI on the day with 10 in the AFL, in 62 AB’s
Best seasons by a Braves shortstop, 1991-2008, by RC/G (min. 300 PA)
ATLANTA BRAVES
SEASON
1991-2008
SS
RUNS CREATED/GAME YEAR RC/G
1 Jeff Blauser 1997 7.33
2 Edgar Renteria 2007 6.91
3 Jeff Blauser 1993 6.66
4 Yunel Escobar 2007 6.63
5 Rafael Furcal 2003 6.36
6 Rafael Furcal 2000 6.13
7 Jeff Blauser 1992 5.70
8 Rafael Furcal 2005 5.61
9 Edgar Renteria 2006 5.51
10 Rafael Furcal 2004 5.32
11 Jeff Blauser 1996 5.32
12 Walt Weiss 1998 5.20
13 Jeff Blauser 1991 5.15
14 Yunel Escobar 2008 4.68
15 Rafael Furcal 2001 4.32
Now I definitely want to overpay for an aging injured Furcal who never produced a better offensive season than ’07 Escobar.
Well, Escobar was only half-time that year. This is probably better, plate appearances added:
ATLANTA BRAVES
SEASON
1991-2008
SS
PLATE APPEARANCES displayed only–not a sorting criteria
RUNS CREATED/GAME YEAR RC/G PA
1 Jeff Blauser 1997 7.33 623
2 Edgar Renteria 2007 6.91 543
3 Jeff Blauser 1993 6.66 710
4 Yunel Escobar 2007 6.63 355
5 Rafael Furcal 2003 6.36 734
6 Rafael Furcal 2000 6.13 542
7 Jeff Blauser 1992 5.70 403
8 Rafael Furcal 2005 5.61 689
9 Edgar Renteria 2006 5.51 673
10 Rafael Furcal 2004 5.32 632
11 Jeff Blauser 1996 5.32 312
12 Walt Weiss 1998 5.20 424
13 Jeff Blauser 1991 5.15 415
14 Yunel Escobar 2008 4.68 587
15 Rafael Furcal 2001 4.32 359
16 Rafael Furcal 2002 4.31 693
17 Jeff Blauser 1994 4.13 434
18 Walt Weiss 1999 3.76 327
19 Jeff Blauser 1995 3.73 504
20 Rafael Belliard 1991 3.01 385
21 Rafael Belliard 1992 1.87 315
I guess I don’t really remember Blauser being that good. I mean I knew he was good, but I wouldn’t have thought he’d top that category. It may have been that in 1993 I was 5 and in 1997 I was 9.
It’s not just you. People who were there don’t realize it either.
It was for this reason that someone held up a sign at a game calling him “Doogie Blauser, The Hit Doctor.”
For some reason, the nickname didn’t catch on.
Wow – I surely didn’t think he’d top the list, LOL. Teach me to open my mouth before doing my research (for some reason I thought it would come back to bite me).
Blauser was my favorite player growing up. I wore the number 4 in little league.
Hey look, the Braves got Escobar’s replacement (not really):
http://tinyurl.com/672n2b
I ran a top 30 list for NL shortstops during the period. I won’t print it here, but it’s dominated by Barry Larkin, though the best and third-best years are Hanley’s last two. But Blauser’s two best years are eighth and thirteenth, Furcal is on it three times, and both 2007 shortstops are on there. Seven out of thirty — in about 250 team seasons. The Braves have probably had the third-best shortstop play in the NL over the last twenty years after the Reds and Marlins.
I assume that the Yuma manager is the mediocre outfielder and not the insane reliever.
Heh. He’d definitely have been perceived differently if his career had occured 10-15 years later than it did. I had NO IDEA that he walked that much. And on those years when he BA spiked, he was almost certainly among the best SS in the league.
Shame his career faded so quickly.
Will Barry Larkin make it into the Hall of Fame? I think he should, but will he?
Flowers has had a very impressive fall. Im guessing if he’s not in the Peavy deal, he’ll be moved for another piece before ST
Mac,
Where did Blauser rank on your list of the best Braves of all time? I don’t even remember him being on the list.
Right, given the Royals weird liking of Francoeur, the fact that Greinke would come cheaper than Peavy because his contract is up in 2 years and Towers is trying to play hardball with a deal we should barely make anyway, why not offer a similar package to the Royals?
Francoeur, Morton, Hernandez, Locke for Greinke and a 48 hour negotiating window?
Close? Or just ridiculous? Obviously doesn’t help that they got Jacobs.
They’re trying to sign Greinke to an extension, but it’s not thought he will. Once they realise he won’t, he’ll be available.
If Peavy really does want the final year of his contract guaranteed, as the dude from Yahoo Sports says, I’d probably walk away completely.
#220, No. 16: Jeff Blauser
Who gives a crap about the final year? Guarantee it. Whatever.
And the Padres are about to screw themselves over completely. If they walk away from our deal, they’ll likely never get a better deal for him. The Cubs deal sucks, and the farther we go, the less contract he has left, so the quality of any deal will surely go down.
And on our side of the ledger, we are going to kill this deal off by not including Tommy Hanson, and it’s going to really piss me off.
Who gives a crap about the final year? Guarantee it. Whatever.
Such a well-thought-out sentiment. Yes, who can possibly find fault with a $22-million commitment for 2013 for a pitcher with violent mechanics who will be 32 years old?
I say no to the final year. And I am a big supporter of this possible trade. Absolutely no guarantee on the final year.
I would think Barry Larkin is a first ballot HOF. If he had played in New York they would buld a statue of him.
Alright, let me put it in more eloquent terms. First, I’m pretty sure that Peavy and his agent are just sniping, and I’m guessing that he’s bluffing on that, just like on the Escobar thing. If the deal comes through, he’ll take it, because he wants out of San Diego. But even if he’s not bluffing, in my opinion it is worth it in order to get one of the best pitchers in the game. Plus, we can always trade him if we don’t want to pay the last year. That is way too far down the road to just say, “Oops, that’s it. He wants the last year guaranteed? No more discussions. We’re out. Now to go sign a free-agent pitcher who will no doubt want the final year of his contract guaranteed.” I’m sorry, but it makes no sense to me that that would be the sticking point. And if we have to guarantee it to get the deal done, for God’s sake, guarantee it.
Sorry for the curt response, but if you can’t tell, I’m starting to get a bit peeved at the fact that this deal is pretty obviously not going to get done because both sides are sitting on their hands. And at the fact that everyone on here thinks we’d be better off with an unknown quantity and without one of the best pitchers in the league.
An ace pitcher is, quite simply, the most important thing to have in baseball. He is far more important than the young starting shortstop and far, far more important than a pitching prospect. If we do this deal, we are at least 50% of the way back to being a playoff-caliber team, maybe more. We’d have to fill the holes properly, but I will tell you this. I’m not sure that signing Burnett by himself and finding a decent outfielder gets us to the point where trading for Peavy would. In fact, I’m pretty sure that it doesn’t. We do not have to throw next year away to contend in the future. We can contend next year and in the future if we make smart decisions. I simply do not understand why anyone would think this deal wasn’t a good idea, really, much less why everyone thinks this deal isn’t a good idea. I simply do not understand why everyone’s so eager to throw next year down the garbage chute.
One excellent pitcher makes us about 20% closer to being a contender, we will still need a SS, another SP, and at least one OF, really 2 OF and 2 more SP’s.
I believe this to be an excellent deal to do. However, the final year guaranteed will not make it worth doing. I say that because you’d be approaching the territory where you might as well just pay CC his 22 mil per year and not worry about giving up prospects. The only reason this deal made any sense from the beginning was that he was extremely affordable for a bonafide ace. But once that goes out the window, you might as well just buy one on the free agent market.
Nick, you’re talking as if Peavy is the only decent pitcher available. He isn’t.
As for the final year of the deal. If we wanted to trade him instead of keep him, then that implies he won’t be worth $22 million then. If that’s the case, who would want to trade for him?
Nick,
you don’t understand or you don’t agree? The explanations for why people don’t agree with the trades are well documented in the past few threads.
It’s pretty simple really. A lot of people don’t agree with you that trading Escobar + Schafer gets us 50% of the way back to being a playoff team.
Also, hypothetically signing Burnett and a good outfielder would not be throwing next year down the garbage chute. We are without Hudson for all of 2009 probably and without Smoltz for a lot of it, all of it if we don’t sign him, and he may not be able to be a starter. Hudson will be back in 2010. While we don’t want to throw away next season, we don’t need to make it all the way back either, we just need to improve to the point that in 2010 we can take the next steps that get us all the way there.
Plus, we can always trade him if we don’t want to pay the last year.
You mean like we were able to do with Hampton and his awesome contract?
If we do this deal, we are at least 50% of the way back to being a playoff-caliber team, maybe more. We’d have to fill the holes properly, but I will tell you this. I’m not sure that signing Burnett by himself and finding a decent outfielder gets us to the point where trading for Peavy would. In fact, I’m pretty sure that it doesn’t.
Dude, 50%? Not remotely true. As for Burnett + OF = Peavy, maybe but what about Burnet + OF = Peavy + Yunel or Peavy + Hanson? Because that’s the issue here.
Burnett will not win us a postseason series. Peavy could. If we got Burnett + OF – we still need a true ace. Not saying others aren’t available, just saying we can’t stop there. Look what Cole Hamels did for the Phillies this year. We need one of those guys. Why not Burnett + OF + Peavy? Still need to work on getting a decent shortstop, but that takes care of most of our needs. Besides, what do you think our chances of signing good free-agents are if we don’t show we are trying to win? We lost 90 games last year. How can we appeal to any free-agents that get like offers from teams that won 90 last year?
This is Jake Peavy of the stellar 12 ERA in the postseason?
I’m not saying he won’t get better, but I don’t think he’ll win postseason series either.
You could equally say that the Rays having 3 #2s won them postseason series because they could win every game.
Larkin should be first ballot. When I looked at the upcoming eligibles (not counting the 2013 group with Bonds and Clemens) I had him second only to Rickey Henderson, but ahead of Bagwell and Robby Alomar.
Blauser is if anything rated too low at 16; he could easily be five spots higher.
Peavy doesn’t make us better than we were last year, arguably it makes us better than we ARE right now, ARGUABLY. With Jake Peavy, we’re the same team we were last year AFTER we lost Smoltz and Glavine but before we lost Hudson (remember that team?). Then you have to factor in the replacement of Mark Texeira with Sid Bream er… I mean Rico Brogna er…. oh yeah CASEY KOTCHMAN in addition to the hit our payroll, lineup and defense takes when we no longer hold the services of Yunel Escobar, not to mention the depletion of depth in our farm system.
In exactly 2 post-season starts, Peavy got beat up pretty bad. But, it should be noted that he pitched the first game with a broken rib.
I wouldn’t worry about any of that, though. Andy Pettitte lost Game 1 of the ’96 WS 12-1. We know all too well what he did the next time out.
@237 – I agree if we were to just get Peavy. But the idea isn’t to stop there. Add another #2 pitcher and a slugging outfielder to the mix, and I think we are alot better than last year. Especially since the Tex we had for most of the season is nowhere near what his final stats indicate. But Peavy doesn’t just help us for next year. Again, I think a rotation of Peavy, Hudson, another free agent (i.e. Burnett), Jurrjens and Hanson for 2010 would be almost unbeatable (assuming they stay healthy). But also, I only think this makes sense if we can obtain a decent SS as well (which I think we can very well do).
I’m just worried that we’ll max out our payroll and have no flexibility to make moves before the 2010 season, which was always the case for most of the past decade, instead of trying to make all the big signings and trades this year i’d rather hold onto all of our cheap young pieces and try to make a run in 2010 when we have all of our horses in place.
I just posted this somewhere else, but might as well do it here also.
I’m against the Peavy deal and here’s why. Here’s why…
Typically when you trade for a particular player its done from a position of strength. Our SS situation is not a strength for us at this point. Dont get me wrong, Peavy is one hell of a pitcher and probably a top 5 pitcher in all of baseball. However, while making this trade we are creating a bigger hole in which will have to be filled via trade of FA. The Padres are saying that any team who gets Peavy will have to pick up the option year which makes his contract $16.2 mil for the next 5 years. Still a very good price for his caliber of a pitcher.
But lets now look at what we’ll have to spend for a FA SS in the market because Lillibridge isnt going to cut it. Lets go cheap and say we get Renteria for $6 mil per for 2 years. We are now paying $22 mil for these two positions and we are a lot worse defensively for it. Or we could sign Furcal but thats now making the two positions around $30 mil. For that price you could keep Yunel and probably get Dempster and maybe Lowe for that same cost. We’d still have KJ to move for Ludwick and still have about $15mil left to spend. Not to mention that we’d still have Gorkys, Flowers, Locke, Morton and Reyes (who I dont care for) to package in other deals.
So basically what Im saying is that…
Yunel, Ludwick, Lowe, Dempster, + Prospects fills all your needs for around $30 to $35 mil and gives you the capability of making more trades. We’ve still got more $$ to spend and filled the hole in LF, 2 SP positions, and kept one of the best defensive SS in baseball. Prado is a drop off from KJ, but he can get the job done.
If you make the trade you’ve got Peavy, who’s a flat out stud, but you still have the LF problem, a hole at SS, and less prospects.
Feel free to chime in…..
CSG – I like your plan, but alot of ifs there as well. Lowe is going to Boston. Count it.
Dempster is a big question (though I like him). But I love the idea of keeping Yunel and getting Ludwick for Johnson. But I still don’t like the pitching options there. If we could get Lowe, I’d like it a helluva lot more. I just don’t think it will happen.
Everyone is going to be after Lowe/Dempster/Burnett. And I doubt the Braves are any of their first choices. The Braves will probably have to overpay any of them significantly to bring them in. Walking away on Peavy and putting all your eggs in signing any of them will likely end up badly: with either the Braves signing none of them or paying them 18+ million per year.
I say get Jake Peavy.
Oh, by the way. Flowers hit 3 more home runs today in Arizona to give him 10 so far, and Hanson threw 5 innings with 9 more K’s.
Lowe isn’t guaranteed to go to Boston. They’ll offer him less than he could get elsewhere.
According to DOB there’s a thought that there could be a rash of free agent signings early as people take the security of money that’s on the table anticipating a squeeze in January.
I’m not that high on Escobar nor am I all that high on the prospects. I say make the deal. It does leave a whole at short, but we will do something.
We are looking at one of the best pitchers in the game with a more than reasonable contract.
Think back to the Marte/ Renteria deal. There were people on here compairing Marte to Mike Schmidt. You have to give something to get something.
To be fair, I compared Marte to Matt Williams.