Sabernomics » Blog Archive » More Francoeur Quote Mischief?
Sabernomics » Blog Archive » Where Did the Frenchy Quotes Go?
JC is looking into the peculiar scrubbing of Jeff Francoeur quotes from the AJC articles covering his demotion and recall. In one case, an article by Carroll Rogers was actually removed and replaced with one by Thomas Stinson “with reporting by Carroll Rogers”. Is someone (the Braves? Francoeur’s agent? Delta? Gerber?) pressuring the AJC to protect Francoeur?
UPDATE: DOB says that the AJC did not scrub quotes, that everything appeared in the paper edition and online somewhere, and that there is no attempt to cover anythng up.
from previous thread:
jon k.,
i’m done addressing you until you start reading my posts. your post has nothing to do with my post. you’re basically beating a dead horse on an argument that was exhausted last night. Playoffs? PLAYOFFS? I never said anything about PLAYOFFS!
stu,
that mlb comparison is hilarious. i dont see how he compares to francoeur though. he doesnt hit for average, but he WALKS, and has power. i’m sure they know more than i do. jeff francoeur has never really shown any plate discipline.
on what side is that trade not enough? can you explain your thoughts?
Woah, I did not notice this… If this is true, I’m not sure I can keep supporting this team. It’s bad enough to watch them play bad baseball, but all this political crap is too much.
Great article out on ESPN if you haven’t seen it about terminally ill cancer patients going to Turner Field and some insights to Bobby Dews. I never knew his story. I guess things can always be worse than the Braves absolutely SUCKING.
http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/eticket/story?page=hospice
ryan c,
I don’t think the Braves would be getting enough (Sean Casey + 2 decent prospects + 1 guy (Nava?) I have never even heard of) to justify dealing Teix and Ohman. I would rather take my chances with the draft picks we’d get for Teix (and maybe Ohman–I’m guessing he’d be at least a Type B FA) than take those guys.
I’m with Bethany. If this turns out to be the Braves actually protecting Francoeur from the press when he mouthed off against them…I’m really not sure that I can support them anymore.
I keep hoping that sense will prevail and Frenchy will be jettisoned out this offseason. The proper term, I believe, is false hope.
new quote from chipper:
“….and we’ve got a lot of young hitters in the lineup who haven’t, um, grasped what it’s like to be a hitter every day in this league. And we’re struggling as a team because of it.”
i love the “um” . chipper hasn’t sugarcoated a single thing this year. i wonder if this is causing any static in the clubhouse.
Saw that in DOB’s blog, ryan c. My question is: who do you think he’s talking about? Francoeur obviously fits the description, but it seems like most of the “young hitters” (McCann, KJ, Escobar) are the good ones. Norton’s not young. Guys like Blanco and Brandon Jones couldn’t be expected to do much more than they’ve done.
I quoted Chipper with the same kind of quote the other, but in the one I quoted he praised McCann, and Frenchy was still in Ms. The only young hitters in the line-up that day were Blanco, Esco and KJ. So I don’t know.
Oh yea there is static in the clubhouse. Francouer is closest to John Smoltz….
RESOP ALERT
I dont know if anyone posted this, and I apologize if you did but Resop is gone….Credit to MLBtraderumors.com
“The Hanshin Tigers purchased reliever Chris Resop’s contract from the Braves. “
I wonder what kind of pressure the Braves could be putting on the AJC, if they are actually doing so? Usually the media goes with a “the public has a right to know” blast when it’s pressured.
hey three former Arkansas players, including Matt Jones, arrested for selling cocaine out of their vehicle last night. Jones was caught cutting the cocaine with his credit card. My friend, you’re a loser
Ha ha! No, not really. Maybe the NYT or the WP or the WSJ does, but the AJC very rarely stands up to corporations, be they the Braves or Delta or Coca-Cola or you name it.
He’s no Jimmy Johns. Dealers > Users.
New poll.
If the AJC wanted to make Jeff look better, wouldn’t they remove his batting stats instead?
Tony,
Please let me know how you know there is static in the Braves Locker room.
Also, please let me know how you know that Jeff and Smoltz are closest.
Thanks in advance.
I would like to hear DOB’s response to this
100 RIBBIES. That’s all I got to say.
Matt Jones for the Jacksonville Jags? They couldn’t get a hotel room? Do it at someone’s house?
It’s a good thing we have an off day for that grueling trip from Los Angeles to San Diego.
Jake…
“While many were attempting to predict if John Smoltz will pitch rightfielder Jeff Francoeur, who is one of Smoltz’s closest friends on the team…”
I can’t remember the exact date, but if you check mlb.com you can see the whole article
As far as static, they are a losing team…I would hope there would be some static.
Tony,
Thanks for your response. I just wanted to know what you were basing your comments off of.
Jeff and Smoltz are friends but not the closest. Mac and Jeff are best friends on and off the field.
Secondly, I haven’t seen or heard any “static” from this team. They are not having a great year but your comment about there being static in the clubhouse I just don’t believe.
“Mac” being McCann, not me, because I think Francoeur is a whiny baby.
Oceanside Mike, that really is a great story. I hadn’t realized Bobby Dews was a writer, but this looks like a pretty good book.
The funniest line of the article for me was this: “Martha won’t budge. She claps as closer Manny Acosta, after giving up two hits, finally gets the last out on a ground ball to second.” I’m sure she realized that no lead is safe with Manny on the mound!
Of course.
How idiotic would the AJC have to be to allow this? What is this, Orwell’s 1984 where they erase the past? Everyone knows he said it so what’s the point of going back and changing the articles?
Jake…
We are not in the clubhouse and we know the Braves are notorious for keeping clubhouse issues out of the media. Unless it slips out, like last year when Smoltz called out Chipper. Now it might not be New York Mets static…but there is static in the clubhouse. It’s only natural.
Anytime you put 25 hyper-competitive people in the same room day after day, there is going to be some static. Add a good mix of losing to that equation and you will most likely get a lot of static.
BTW- I’m in the camp of winning builds good team chemistry, not the other way around.
Are there post game press conferences with the coaches on Atlanta Radio like they have here in NYC?
just curious.
Shouldn’t the quotes still be available on the wayback machine over at the internet archive? I didn’t think anything really got transferred to the memory hole once it was out there in the tubes.
Hey Everyone, your 2008 Atlanta Braves: where winning isn’t everything, it’s the 4th or 5th thing!
The comments by Frenchy being deleted has obviously happened to distract the baseball gods from noticing that Mike Hampton is almost back… if they were paying attention he’d lose an eye in a shaving accident… or something… he’s obviously ticked off SOMEBODY “up there”.
Man, the Mariners released Richie Sexson.
http://tinyurl.com/66nxjs
AAR — yeah, that book will have to eventually find its way into my collection. I’m not a big fan of Bobby right now but I respect the fact he gave him a chance to get things straight. I’m sure some of his stories will have basis in his own reality and experience.
Tony,
Does every player on the team love each other, no. But any “static” in the clubhouse is minor and something that happens in every clubhouse.
My suggestion is to be careful what you believe when you are reading the papers or watching tv. I’m sure I don’t have to tell you this but 90% of the time it’s twisted.
I think Chipper’s comments about the young hitters was meant to be general. Obviously, Francouer has been the biggest problem, but I suspect even the guys that have been relatively consistent, ie, KJ, Yunel, even McCann, are probably still learning to hit and are struggling in certain situations. I doubt that Chipper would really single out one player like that because it’s not like he is the only one not performing.
JC has screen captures from his cache of the original Rogers article. For that matter, the AP picked up part of the article. That’s the really stupid thing — the horses had long since fled this barn.
Mac,
I missed it, what was the quote that everyone is going crazy over.
Vast international conspiracy. Where’s Woodward and Bernstein.
Jake…
“My suggestion is to be careful what you believe when you are reading the papers or watching tv. I’m sure I don’t have to tell you this but 90% of the time it’s twisted.”
Jake, I live in NYC, you don’t have to tell me how things get twisted by the papers or television. I guess my concern is why are you so worried if there is static or not? I don’t care if it is minor or major. These are grown men, if there is static I’m pretty sure they can handle it. By the way I never said I read or heard there was static, I just assumed it since this team sucks right now. Hell, even boy scouts have static…
Okay — wouldn’t Richie Sexson be able to outhit Greg Norton? Shouldn’t we pick him up?
Hey, I’m a lady and I don’t find Francoeur attractive at all!
I think it was Branch Rickey who opined that it was better to trade someone a year too early than a year too late.
I fear we have waited (at least) a year too late for a thorough housecleaning.
The stumbling, hand-to-mouth tactical moves are a sure sign that they’re trying to prop up a crumbling castle.
Off with all their heads. Wren first.
I don’t really see why the M’s would dump Sexson. He’s been bad but the M’s are still on the hook for his salary and they don’t have much better to replace him. Maybe Sexson can play RF–his ops is .696 vs. .666 for the Incredible Out Machine.
Meanwhile, it seems that there’s nothing that will prompt the Braves to DFA Miller.
Cloud, “Ladies”, in this context, = giddy girls.
maybe I missed it, but I’m surprised that no one has commented on Matt Harrison’s nice debut for the Rangers
How does that works…if Sexson is picked by another team, how much of the salary is that team responsible for? Sexson is 34 y/o? Didn’t realize he was that old.
other team would be responsible for the league minimum prorated to the remaining length (roughly one-half) of the season
as for the Braves picking him up–there’s no position for him but he would be a better RH bat against lefties than Norton et al. (his ops this year vs lefties is over 1.0 but it is less than .600 against righties)
Frank,
Harrison was talked about yesterday, with sadness.
Sexson has struggled very bad the last two years, but he’s light years ahead of anyone on our bench. He’s got good splits against lefties, but cant sniff RH pitching.
thanks, Tony
One start doesn’t make a good career or a bad trade, but I think sadness is appropriate.
Wow, I hadn’t seen Harrison’s debut… *sigh*
Salty is unhappy… and not hitting great… but I’d still like to have him in the system… converting him to a 1st baseman.
http://tinyurl.com/6959c9
At least Sexson would provide the threat of a HR. Who knows get him out of HR hell in Seattle…he may hit every now and then.
Salty may not be hitting great but he’s no hamster. Of course, the mighty thor might still be manning first base …
I blame Adam LaLazy and Dan Kolb for all the Braves problems. Man Dan Kolb was terrible.
#52 – he’s lucky that was a Maple bat and not an Ash bat…(sarcasm here) Why didnt he break any bats in ATL, I would love to see someone doing their best Bo Jackson impressions. I bet if we had kept Salty at 1st and didnt trade everyone for Tex, we would still be in the same type situation or at least not much worse. At least then we would have a capable replacement for McCann if anything ever happened. If only we had known then what we know now.
It should also tell us how bad we are if we keep picking up the players that Seatle keeps dumping
I say the Braves would be crazy not to pick up Sexson at this point. He can’t be any worse than the dead wood that the Braves have signed over the years.
Quotegate.
Ben at 57,
I was kind of inclined to say something like you, but csg may have gotten it right.
The Braves have, even in the good years, “lived off the scrap heap” quite effectively. However, maybe they need to get something decent.
Richie in 2006…
.264/338/504/842 with 34HR, 107 RBIs. Only 64 bbs…
What a huge dropoff..
The scrap heap is a good way to gain depth on your roster and occasionally lightning will strike, but your entire starting OF cant be the scrap heap that ours is becoming.
1999 Yankees had great retreads on their roster.
Thanks for the links, Mac.
Apparently, Quotegate has thrown Dave O’Brien into a tantrum on his blog. I guess I can kiss that acquaintance good-bye. It might all be innocent, but is it too much to acknowledge that this looks suspicious?
via mlbtraderumors:
“The Braves still haven’t made the buy/sell decision. If they buy, Xavier Nady is the top target. If they sell, Mark Teixeira is the best chip. Apparently Scott Boras is talking about $23MM per year for Tex this winter.”
23 MILLION/YEAR? Did Mark Teixeira hit 12 homeruns today on an off day? That’s the only way i can see justifying giving him the 2nd largest yearly contract in baseball.
Someone will give it to him, certainly not the Braves. I don’t even think he’s worth 20 mil, but whatever.
Actually, Ryan C., it is the fact that Braves maybe CAN hit on an off day but not against mediocre left handers or in “strange” cities that is the problem.
Therefore, we shouldn’t base Teix on the homeruns he didn’t hit on the off day, but the ones he didn’t hit during the games.
UNLESS the Yanks and Mets BOTH go after Teix or one of them bids against himself, 23 mill is a pipe dream.
I’ve been nothing more that a lurker here for sometime. I’ve just lost my will to post. This team has drained my enthusiasm. Maybe it’s been a blessing that I can’t watch games anymore thanks to TBS. I know I’m not missing much compelling baseball. I think I’m just sick of this team being the greenest team in the league. We recycle more crap in a given baseball season than Gore Junior could ever dream of.
According to MLBrumors, we can “buy” Xavier freaking Nady or trade Tex for whatever. If’ that’s the best we can do as a buyer, then please sell. We have to be able in the seller market to do better than to wait for draft picks. This team is not a WS contender and we all know that. I would rather aggressively pursue rebuilding than continue the mediocrity we’ve been living with for the last few years.
We need the Yanks to get hot and chase the BoSox so one of them will bid for Tex and drive up his value.
Are the Rays not enough, oldtimer? If Ortiz isn’t healthy, and the Rays continue to play like they are, then that is motivation enough to drive up Tex’s value.
And shoot, why wouldn’t the Rays be buyers? They have Carlos Pena hitting .230 at first (with a little power), so they could definitely upgrade at 1B. If they’re trying to make a run, they definitely have the prospects to put together a good package for Tex. They could even use Ohman in the pen if Percival has anymore health problems.
I doubt the Rays will bid up Tex’s value. Why would the Rays bid on him? They have Pena at 1B and need RH (Tex’s weak side) OF.
In batting practice, I guarantee that the Braves would get at least a few hits.
“We need the Yanks to get hot and chase the BoSox so one of them will bid for Tex and drive up his value.”
They have won 4 straight since Giraldi lit into them. Speaking of the Yanks, AROD’s prenup is ironclad..which his wife should have known meant he would banging anything up and down the east coast.
23 MILLION…That’s laughable. I don’t even think the Yanks or Mets would do that…
When is King Albert contract up…that’s only 23mil man in baseball, if any.
From the AJC story linked in DOB’s blog:
“I’m hitting .260,” his right fielder replied, as if to confess a felony. “.260!”
“Yeah,” snapped Wellman, “and you earned every damn point.”The conversation started there: the argument first; the challenge second; some videotape review third; and then last, the conclusive hour in a stifling batting cage. They finished at 2:30 a.m. It happened three years ago, and the night would change Francoeur’s career. He went on a 12-game tear that would culminate in his summons to Atlanta.
So the Braves promoted Francouer on the basis of a 2 week hot streak. We’ve seen the consequences over the past 2 years.
Sure, but Madonna? That’s just icky. It’s like dating your mom. If your mom used to do porn.
Let’s face it. This is all Mondesi’s fault. If he’d been at all credible as a right fielder, the Braves wouldn’t have had to release him and call up Francoeur. Worst part is, he wasn’t much worse than Francoeur has been this year.
More bad news…
The Mets and Phillies won. Ryan Howard has 27 jacks with the two today and his avg is up to .234.
The Mets were led by Fernando Tatis? Why couldn’t the Braves pick someone like that up…
Adam Dunn has 24 HR? Maybe he is the answer.
apparently bravesjournal.us has now turned in the conspiracy theory guy. maybe someones article was better. i think jeff should mouth off all he wants. give the team some identity.
btw he played better than anybody elses last night. ive got the stats if you need them.
we think this outfield is bad – but the Mondesi/Jordan expirement is waaaayyyy worse than Frenchy/Blanco.
Will Diaz be available for the SD series?
Madonna is 50…maybe she does magic tricks or something. Then again who would want to touch something Dennis Rodman has had…now that’s nasty.
yeah here’s some stats…
.236/.286/.380/.667
and I dont care how good/bad you are, you dont mouth off in public bashing your organizations decisions and/or your GM. If Jeff wants to continue to mouth off, they should either fine him and demand an apology or grant him his outright release from the Atl Braves. I like the guy, but he’s shown that he doesnt recognize that his own failures caused that demotion. He has some growing up to do.
I’m inclined to believe DOB on Francoeurgate. It’s next to literally impossible to suppress something once it’s been on the internet. But errors, weird edits, and all sorts of other incongruities regularly appear in transit between the print and online editions of news stories. I have no idea what actually happened, but the “human error” angle seems a lot more plausible to me than the “suppression suborned by shady corporate masters” angle.
I am so lost with the Francouer thing, b/c I don’t care…but what happened?
Ladies and Gentlemen, you won’t believe the message I just got.
Ask Sekou Smith about the AJC’s penchant / ability to posthumously edit a story.
Btw, this just in from NY Post:
“C-Rod does BoSox – even Youkilis”
csg,
I think you’re being way too sensitive on the Frenchy comments. I don’t really think it’s as big of a deal as fans are making it. I also don’t think you want the Braves to give him his outright release.
I just made a comment responding to NY METS, but thought better of it.
I’ll just take the high road.
Well Christie Brinkley gets the kids and the Hampton Properties…that guy was an idiot.
Apparently C-Rod is trash…
In Frenchy’s defense (so most of you will probably skip over my post now), he’s played almost every inning of the past 3 years. Without any kind of extended time on the bench, they demote him down to AA without any prior heads-up except from internet blogs and print media (and honestly, how many athletes read that stuff?). You’re 24 years old, people are calling you a future star (which he very well could be), and you get sent down to the minors after a 3-minute conversation that had no prior lead-up to. Naturally, you get defensive, you tell people you don’t agree with it, and then a buncha internet bloggers start crucifying you because you said something when you were mad.
good point rob. anger’s a bitch.
Rob,
I can understand the frustration. I’m cool with, “I’m not happy about this, and I think they’ve made the wrong decision.” What I’m not cool with are (1) the threats that this has really put a damper on his relationship with the team—I don’t care how shocked or upset he was, I view comments like that as more deliberate and less off-the-cuff/excusable; and (2) the continued comments about meaning every word of what he said. He’s not even apologizing for being hasty or noting that he was caught at a bad time for comment—why should we then excuse him for those reasons?
Jake, not being to sensitive and no I dont want that to happen either. I said if it continues then I could expect one of the other either a fine or down the road an outright release. I dont mind him being upset and being pissed about being demoted, but you dont get that vocal in the media.
Jake, you have some ties to the org somehow. Do you get the feeling that these guys are going to be buyers or sellers or do you think they’ll wait until right up to the deadline?
I don’t have a problem with him being upset about his demotion. I’m actually glad to see that kind of emotion. But his remarks sounded as if he felt he had earned some kind of entitlement that would excuse him from scrutiny, criticism, and ultimately a demotion. He had to anticipate this considering his horrible performance this season, and Wren said himself he didn’t warn him for fear of more pressing. Wren also said they had a 20-30 minute meeting in Bobby’s office to discuss the move. What more does he want them to do?
I think everyone would feel better about the Francoeur brand if he had been more humble, realizing it was in his best interests to move out of the pressure cooker and work on his swing mechanics and approach for a few weeks. This demotion wasn’t done for anything more than trying to help him, and his immaturty and short-sightedness is keeping him from seeing the benefit. He should keep his mouth shut, go and get better, and then he can run his mouth when he’s actually contributing. Malcontants are especially unwelcome when they are hitting .234.
Stu,
I’m not trying to say his comments were justified or that he should have said what he said, I can just see where he’s coming from. For someone to say that he should be released over this, that’s just as hasty as what he said himself.
I think he feels entitled too much, and I think you gotta say, “Well, I wasn’t producing, so what should I expect?” Now, we also ran out Omar Infante and Greg Norton instead of him so Jeff’s gotta be thinking, “What the heck?”
At the end of the day, does his comments really mean that much? Honestly, does it change anything? The people that are not going to like Francoeur because he’s Wonder Boy, Mr. Atlanta Franchise Face are just going to use this as fuel, but they’ve already made their decision. It seems like the people that don’t like Francoeur are making a lot out of a little, IMO.
okay, I see where you could get that from my first post on the subject, my apologies. I dont want him to get released and dont expect that to ever happen. I just want him to start playing baseball and let his stats speak for himself, but I dont see why he’s given enough credit to make those type of statements about his employer and they can go unpunished.
From Keith Law:
Rob,
I guess my point is that I generally like Francoeur the guy, even though he’s not a productive baseball player. I expected more from him as a person and am incredibly disappointed at how he’s handled this adversity. I’m somewhat irked by the paragraphs and paragraphs I’ve seen on here defending what I view as clearly immature and undesirable whining on his part. I get that you don’t like reading over and over about how much he sucks—FWIW, I agree with you—but at this point, I’m even more annoyed by the suggestion that he shouldn’t be faulted for acting like he has and that it’s unreasonable to expect any different from an adult.
I see what you’re saying, Stu. The defense of Jeff is pretty much a response to the over-inflation of the comments. Personally, I wouldn’t have said what Jeff said. And yes, I definitely agree he didn’t handle it well. And I think criticism of that is justified, so I’m right there with you. I just don’t think it’s that big of a deal that his overall character is a point of attack or that he should be released or traded or fed to wolves. At the end of the day, I just don’t see it as that big of a deal. Keith Law’s response there sums it up pretty well.
change of subject for the music lovers…ABBA turned down $1 Billion, yes with a B, for 100 concerts. Seriously, why would you pay ABBA $1 billion?
http://archives.cnn.com/2000/SHOWBIZ/News/02/02/showbuzz/#story3
Moving on, I was talking to my brother last night about our team. He’s not a HUGE baseball guy, and so he doesn’t look at the team as deeply as some, so I was trying to explain why our team has played so poorly and, honestly, I didn’t have a good reason. Position-by-position, aside from our horrible corner outfield situation, we are about as good, or better, than we were last year. McCann and Chipper are having great years, KJ and Escobar have hit similar to last year, Kotsay is actually better than Andruw, and even Tex’s diminished offense is still better than the crapfest of Scott Thorman and Craig Wilson for more than half of last year.
Our starting pitching, even after losing Hampton, Glavine, and Smoltz has been very good. Our bullpen has been good as well, and, last time I checked, we’re 2nd or 3rd in the league in ERA.
So what the heck? Our offense, by looking at raw stats, should be pounding the baseball, our pitching has given us more than a chance to win a lot more ballgames, so I just don’t get it. I don’t get how we can have the second best offense in the league, not change the landscape of it that much, and hit as poorly as we have.
Say what you will about Tony LaRussa, but I can’t ever see Bobby doing this. And they won a WS recently.
Cardinals manager Tony La Russa urged the front office and ownership to “use every resource we can” to improve as quickly as possible, citing the Brewers’ trade Monday for Cleveland Indians righthander CC Sabathia and the Cubs’ acquisition Tuesday of Oakland A’s starter Rich Harden and reliever Chad Gaudin as “not the best news we’ve heard this year if you’re a Cardinal fan.” La Russa was not comforted by recent front-office suggestions that the expected return in August of starting pitchers Chris Carpenter and Adam Wainwright from elbow and finger issues would offset those deals. His statements Wednesday come as general manager John Mozeliak insists the club will not reflexively answer moves by its rivals, especially for pending free agents or so-called rental players. (St. Louis Post-Dispatch)
Rob, I think it kind of falls back on what Chipper was eluding to? The team cant advance runners when they need to and not getting big hits in crucial situation. We have had way too many injuries this season also. Put those along with some poor game management and you’ll get seasons like this one. The offense, plain and simple, isnt consistent day in and day out
Braves Team Stats:
Runs: 9th in the NL
ERA: 2nd in the NL
That doesnt equal out to 6 games below .500. I think it has everything to do with in-game coaching.
Yeah, I think those are two huge components. Eventually that stuff should even out…
Our offense, by looking at raw stats, should be pounding the baseball
LF: .252 .320 .358, .679 OPS
CF: .284 .349 .387, .736 OPS
RF: .228 .280 .370, .649 OPS
the 24 striaght 1 run road losses speaks a lot of our in-game coaching
Look deeper at the offensive team stats — by OPS:
RISP- 11th
RISP, 2 out- 14th
Close & Late- 10th
Jeremy, I know that’s huge, but our infield’s offense should be more than making up for that. I mean, we got the best hitter in baseball at the hot corner, McCann’s raking, and Tex, KJ, and Escobar are all above average offensively. We shouldn’t be the 2nd or 3rd best offense like we were last year, but something doesn’t add up. I think it’s the in-game managing and timely hitting that’s been alluded to.
Look deeper at the offensive team stats — by OPS:
RISP- 11th
RISP, 2 out- 14th
Close & Late- 10th
Those stats tell a lot.
congrats to BMAC. I just came across this on the website
According to research done by the Elias Sports Bureau, McCann is the first player in Braves history to be selected to three consecutive All-Star Games in the first three seasons that he appeared on an Opening Day roster.
I thought Aaron was a callup in 1954, but no, he played opening day… So I guess that’s right. Of course, Brian has a ways to go to catch Hank’s 20 straight All-Star Games. (21 if you count one with the Brewers.)
to lighten everyone up, just imagine Andy is signing this to Angela in The Office. Ten minutes later, her and Dwight are going at it
also, why would anyone offer ABBA $1 billion for 100 concerts, and they turned it down. And thats no typo, it starts with a B. Geez….
more from ESPN….
• The ex in Tex: Teams that have checked in with Atlanta about the availability of Mark Teixeira have been told the Braves aren’t hanging any “For Sale” signs until at least the end of next week. If they can hang close in the East through the first series after the All-Star break, then Teixeira stays and they’re likely to resume their efforts to add a bat (with Xavier Nady now clearly at the top of their wish list). But if the Braves slide any further, they’ll almost certainly conclude they’re too banged up to make a run, and the Teixeira auction will begin. The Braves would be likely to start that bidding by asking for a young first baseman who could replace him.
The sad part is Teixeira is a guy they’d love to keep, and Teixeira never acts like a player who wants to leave. But Scott Boras has already sent signals that the free-agent asking price on Teixeira this winter will start at $23 million a year (theoretically for eight to 10 years). So the Braves know the one thing certain about Teixeira’s trip through free agency is that it won’t end with a return to Atlanta. Which will only make them more prone to hit the “ejector” button in this month if they think they can’t win.
he’ll never make 20 straight–heck at the rate Cox is using him it’ll be a miracle if he’s even around for 10
Well, obviously nobody is going to get 20 straight. Ripken retired at eighteen. Of all of Hank’s records, I think that’s the most remarkable. He actually played in 24 of them (tied with Mays and Musial for the most all-time) because they played two for a few seasons there.
Loved the season finale, csg! Did you?
Wow, this party really died…
You can tell it’s an off day for a sub .500 team. An hour and fifteen minutes between posts…
Well that brought back good memories…14 in a row. Man, Glavine, Smoltz and Maddux….sigh
Predictions for Padres series:
Game one: Peavy vs. Reyes…Braves can’t do anything of note against Peavy, fall behind, rally late and fall short and lose 4-2.
Game two: Maddux vs. Morton…Morton gets lit up, Braves hit Maddux well and score four runs off him in six innings, but lose 7-4.
Game three: Wolf vs. Campillo…Braves completely baffled by lefty Wolf and his mid-four ERA and make him look like an ace. Campillo meanwhile gives up two runs in eight innings, but the Braves lose to the Padres 2-0.
Oh…was watching ESPN talking about unbreakable baseball records, and they talked about 14 in a row for the Atlanta Braves. Will it be broken? Of course it will.
Nolan Ryan 5000 Ks…..what a power pitcher.
Not in our lifetimes in won’t. The only chance of it happening any time in the foreseeable future was with the Yankees, but they lost the division last season to the Red Sox.
As for most unbeatable baseball record: Cy Young, 511 wins.
Dan…sadly your predictions sound about right
I agree…511 wins is ridiculous and will never be broken. I don’t think Cal Ripken record will be broken, but they said that about Lou Gehrig’s record.
The caption to this photo is priceless:
http://www.nypost.com/photos/galleries/news/regionalnews/20080710_morse/photo05.htm
I wish I could be famous in NY and go through a divorce. Looks like fun !!
On a side note, I was talking to Smitty’s barber today and he told me:
Casey Kotchman & Nick Adenhart for Tex
http://tinyurl.com/558g2e
hampton pitched well tonight. not that it matters.
#112 – season finale was awesome. If you didnt know this before, Angela got pregnant during the last season. The last few episodes they never even showed her from the chest down. I’m guessing that she be’ll pregnant and having Dwight’s child in the next season, based on the last scene in the last episode
cant wait, meanwhile when the Braves play they lose ground. When they dont play they lose ground. I love my braves
ryan c, more importantly he went 1 for 2 as he prepares to be the everyday left fielder, because we all know he’s not going to pitch again.
#124 – Yeah, I had noticed that her face was thicker too. She definitely looked pregnant. I think they did a good job of not making it obvious. It seems like too much drama for The Office to have Angela having Dwight’s baby and being engaged to Andy, but I’m sure it’ll be funny. It ended up being a really funny season.
re: Hampton
I’m at work right now, so I couldn’t go see Hampton pitch. Man, it would have been cool to see Schafer, Diaz, and Hampton. Boo having a job and being an adult.
re: Teixera
If we were to trade Tex at the deadline, it wouldn’t be because of that that we didn’t win the division (that can’t be good grammar, but just roll with it). If we traded Tex and got a decent 1B like Casey Kotchman, I don’t think the downgrade would be enough for us to be out of the race, if we consider ourselves in now. Does that make sense? I can’t communicate this very well.
Ya know, taking a closer look at that box score, Hampton is starting to tease me again. I know I’m weak, but I’m picturing a mid-4-ERA-pitching Hampton at the back of our rotation giving us some decent innings down the stretch. Snap out of it Rob! COME ON! WAKE UP!
#127 – Rob you’re at work and it 11 pm, you’re delusional and dreaming. You’ll wake up tommorrow to find out that Hampton got frost bite (in 100 degree weather) on his pitching hand and will need to have it amputated asap
Haha. Well, it’s actually 12AM here and I still have another 30 minutes. This is a really sweet job (I don’t do anything), but I’m by myself for a good 8 hours straight so things get a little lonely and my mind goes bonkers. Thankfully, I have Scrubs, The Office, My Boys, My Name is Earl, and an assortment of DVDs, ability to wash my car and change my oil/other miscellaneous car things, a projector I can hook my PS2 up to, wireless internet, and some other random things to keep myself occupied while I watch over a machine for the Florida Department of Training that never, ever breaks down. What a country!
if you’re bored
http://arcade.espn.go.com/cameraman-baseball.htm
josh reddick is a guy we should be going after. that kid can rake, and he’s from savannah.
tex and ohman to boston for reddick, casey, and 1-2 more lower level prospects.
Craig Wilson is still unbelievably getting a paycheck and there are still teams dumb enough to trade for him:
http://blogs.thenewstribune.com/mariners/2008/07/10/mariners_trade_for_craig_wilson_of_the_p
Haha those comments on that Wilson link look a lot like us.
csg, thanks for the link man! That was fun.
Yeah, DOB was pretty fired up about the “conspiracy theory” thing going around. Probably means it’s true.
And is it just me, or does that guy have shitty taste in music? Just because someone sells tons of records(Britney Spears, et.al) doesn’t mean that it’s good…but just because it’s some crappy indie rock band that never had mainstream success(Sonic Youth, et.al) doesn’t mean it’s good either.
What music would you guys come to the plate with if you were a hitter? I might go with “Problems” by Sex Pistols. Or maybe “Seventeen”. “I’m a lazy sod…” is one of the greatest lines in a song, ever.
Conspiracy or not, it does seem like there’s been more than a bit of damage control and, possibly, astroturfing around here lately. That should come as no surprise to anyone who is aware of the art and science of PR, marketing, and message management. It’s just the world we live in, folks. Especially when many millions of $ are concerned.
@134, taste is what it is. And, BTW, your favorite band sucks. 🙂
FWIW, I would probably go to the plate to “I Don’t Know” by the Georgia Satellites.
Good times, bad times, I don’t know
Pick up the dice and, baby, let ’em roll.
It’s the end of the line, nowhere to go
Good times, bad times, I don’t know.
Lots of classic lines in that song.
Night are long but it’s never dull
Dancing with some pretty little juvenile delinquent
Good to see you back again
In the land of salvation and sin
Sometimes, I get so lonely
/love that band
Bill Shnks said Hampton was stretching his hamstring out during the 5th inning, and might have hurt it.
Though he later amended it to being a “tight groin”.
Hell yea, my groin is tight too!
@131,
Ryan, I think that would be a terrible deal and would prefer to keep Tex for the draft picks if that’s all we got.
Reddick may be pretty good, but you have to consider that his numbers are being created in the minor league’s #1 offensive environment, sort of a Coors Field on steroids.
Sean Casey is done and worthless. I’d rather play freakin’ Stormin’ Thorman who stinks, but is virtually free.
Two other Boston guys, such as the ones you mentioned in another thread have virtually no value. As Stu said at the time, I’ve never even heard of them and do follow the minors.
From Boston, a minimum deal would include 1B Lars Anderson and one of Pitchers Justin Masterson or Michael Bowden.
Also, Kevin Youkilis is the best defensive 1B in the Majors so he wouldn’t move off 1B for Tex. Tex would DH, replacing David Ortiz.
I think there are plenty of deals out there for Tex that would exceed the two draft picks. Currently, I like the 1B Casey Kotchman Plus deals (with either #1 SP Jordan Walden, #2 SP Nick Adenhart or #3 OF Juan Rivera ). I think Kotchman > Lars Anderson and Walden > Masterson > Bowden/Adenhart.
While I like Mike Gonzalez a lot, I would also be interested in packaging him with Jeff Francouer to the Tampa Bay Rays as well. If the Rays are hot after Brian Fuentes, Gonzalez should be considered an equivalent property. Paired with Frenchy, we should be able to look into SP Jeremy Hellickson, injured OF Desmond Jennings and maybe SP Jeff Niemann.
Cary,
Gonzalez is signed through next year. He is a superstar closer. No reason to believe the health problems will cause higher risk of him being out than that of “any old pitcher” over that year.
Therefore, if you believe we can not or should not contend in 2009, you deal him. Otherwise, specifically for a team with a seemingly “fried psyche”, we need to have a way to close out wins.
The most provable “real” correlation to a bad pythag record is bad bullpen. Our pen looks good in ERA. However, it is DREADFUL in blown saves (and HAS BEEN for about 3 years. Like 5 to 10 games worse per season than anybody else).
When I now think again on the blown saves and the “close and late” hitting problems (which also go back a few years, but without the glaring magnitude of the blown saves problem), I think we have a “non clutch” team. Maybe moving one or two players will fix it. Maybe changing manager / coach will fix it.
Oh, and by the way a “shout out to “Jake”,
Don’t the guys in the clubhouse REALLY have the feeling that if a game is close and late that SOMEBODY is going to find a way to lose it?
Their performance for 3 years sure says that.
I think they need to have a players and manager and coaches meeting called by and run by the senior players, lay out their problems, and see if they can get over them.
Url, I never listened to the Satellites, but have been hearing they’re great for a while now… what’s their best record?
The reason for the high blown save percentage is simply that the team hasn’t had many save situations. Most of their “blown saves” are games where the leads were blown in the sixth or seventh innings, often with runs charged to the starters. Chuck James leads 4-3 heading to the sixth, he walks the bases loaded, Atrosta comes in and gets a double play that ties the game — that’s a “blown save”. It’s an extreme situation, of course, but the main point is that the blown saves are actually “blown holds”, and not all of them represent bad pitching.
AAR,
For those of us without taste the Satellites great record, the one you certainly have heard but may not know the band name:
“Don’t tell me no lies and keep your hands to yourself”
Mac @ 143,
Agreed to a point. There may be a breakdown somewhere on what inning blown saves occur in. I know that several times the last two years the Braves have had more than 1 blown save in a game.
However, as an aggregate, despite the fact that some of these are dulplicates and some occur in earlier innings, these blown sves still show a team that cannot maximize its “leads” and “finish off” the other guy.
True — but it’s less the bullpen than the offense that’s at fault.
this kid is off to a nice start
http://tinyurl.com/6hfl9e
Cary, I pretty much agree with everything you say in 138.
Currently, I like the 1B Casey Kotchman Plus deals (with either #1 SP Jordan Walden, #2 SP Nick Adenhart or #3 OF Juan Rivera ). I think Kotchman > Lars Anderson and Walden > Masterson > Bowden/Adenhart.
Although Rivera would be very useful, that’s quite a drop-off from your top to choices to him. Especially since, unlike someone like Nady, he’s a FA after this season.
I also think you undervalue Adenhart. He’s having a rough year, but I think he still might be the best prospect of the pitchers you list.
As for the Kotchman/Anderson comparison, Kotchman is far more of a sure thing and would play far more quickly (as in, immediately) than would Anderson, but Anderson does have a higher ceiling.
I would come to the plate to Wagner’s “Ride of the Valkyries.” If that didn’t intimidate the pitcher, nothing would.
Or “Carmina Burana”.
Marc,
That’s a hella sweet idea.
Hard to say what I’d go with. Maybe some Queens of the Stone Age. Or Kyuss.
Sorry if somebody else already posted this… and it’s probably a bit mean to find this as amusing as I do… and as I live in Gwinnett I almost feel bad about posting it… but it’s not going to stop me:
http://tinyurl.com/68prlb
I also feel bad that the groom is wearing a Braves hat in at least one of the pictures… that is Met fan fodder if ever I saw it.
I didn’t say that the Sex Pistols were my favorite band, just that I would walk out to one of their songs. I know they don’t match up to rockin’ bands like Rascal Flatts.
fast forward to 3:10 on the video…this is what i would play if i were a closer. the guitar riffs in this song is ridiculous not to mention that the video is the best made in quite a while. i love when people dont take themselves too seriously and just have fun with a project. the unicorn scene is hilarious.
in my imaginary deal with the red sox, i didnt put lars anderson b/c i figured he was untouchable. i’ve just gotten into following the minors this past year so my knowledge of the parks is elementary.
CharlesP, that’s a terrific story, and thank you.
If I were a closer, I think I might come in to some Cannibal Corpse — perhaps “The Time to Kill is Now,” from their latest album (Kill), or “They Deserve to Die,” from The Wretched Spawn. All of their songs sound the same, so it doesn’t really matter. But they’re sort of hilarious in a cartoon horror sort of way.
Phillip, I think if I was going with a Sex Pistols line to walk out to I’d go with the “I am the Anti-Christ!” line in Anarchy in the UK… just to be shocking.
For ME I’d chose Beat on the Brat by the Ramones:
“Beat on the brat, beat on the brat, beat on the brat with a baseball bat oh yeah”
especially against rookie pitching. Maybe “I Wanna be Sedated” when the team is slumping?
Oh… or maybe “Hockey Sucks” done by the Sweaters (it’s on a Johnny Hanson Presents Puck Rock Vol 1″ CD I’ve got somewhere)… just to start a hockey/baseball feud.
Hmmm I’d also think some Op Ivy or Screeching Weasel would be fun (“My brain hurts today”).
@151,
Then I would announce, “it smells like victory.”
@152,
That’s even worse than when I was at UGA and a couple got married at halftime of the homecoming game with Vandy. They got rolled out on this gigantic motorized cake, walked down to the field and took their vows at about the time the teams were coming back on the field for the second half. After the ceremony, the crowd gave a big “woof, woof, woof.” How romantic! That’s 30 years ago and I have never forgotten it–I wonder what their wedding album looks like.
A Canadian friend of mine was telling me how great the Tragically Hip are. But they’re so, so Canadian. To wit, the lyrics to “Fireworks”:
Mac,
Agreed that in 2008, offense, first lack thereof and second timing thereof, is a bigger problem.
However, I guess the point I was trying to make is that the good bullpen era hides a bad high leverage performance (just as the mediocre offensive TOTALS hide a disastous performance in high leverage situations).
LOVE THE EDIT FEATURE
Basically, if we played 5 or 6 innings, most of the time we would win.
@140,
Cliff, I hear what you’re saying and I do think that Gonzalez is a knock-out closer as long as he’s healthy. I also agree that he’s a crucial part of stabilizing our bullpen and that, that will lead directly to wins.
I wouldn’t like to give him up, but if top prospects are available (I like Jeremy Hellickson a lot and he may be dangled for Fuentes) I would be open to it because I feel like we could find another closer. Granted, it is nice not to have to search for one, and I don’t expect Soriano to make it through a whole season often enough to count on.
So, I’m not gung ho about trading Gonzalez, but personally I’d trade a closer for players at other positions.
Plus, it was not insignificant to me to send Frenchy elsewhere and I figured it might ease the process by tying him to something good.
@154,
Ryan, I just remember a few minor league parks that stand out because they’ve been mentioned in Baseball America or BP or ESPN chats several times and the Red Sox affiliate in Lancaster is the one that always gets the flashing red lights. Maybe if we were able to pull Reddick and Anderson, that would work. I do like Reddick who was also produced good numbers last year before reaching Lancaster.
Okay, if I really had to pick an introductory song, it would probably be something by the Stones (not my favorite band — I’m a Beatles guy — but one that better fits the motif.) Maybe “Gimme Shelter” or “Sympathy for the Devil”. If I were a pitcher, “Paint It, Black” would be too easy.
I also think that stadiums should play really embarrassing introductory songs for visiting players. I’m sure that A-Rod is hearing a whole lot of “Borderline” and “Like a Virgin” these days, but for everyone. If you don’t feel creative, just slap some Barney on them.
@148,
Stu, glad to hear it. I didn’t realize that Rivera was going to be a free agent after this year (should have checked the mlbtraderumors link), so that would make the Kotchman-Rivera package pretty much unattractive. I’d be happy with either Walden or Adenhart.
I do think that Rivera might be a potentially cost-effective free agent OF to grab in the offseason as well.
And if we could afford it, I wouldn’t mind keeping Tex and getting Ben Sheets as a free agent as you’ve recommended previously. That would set us up so long as Tex/Boras doesn’t shoot for the moon.
I love this thread.
Ryan C: Rock on, buddy.
AAR: If you would seriously use Cannibal Corpse, I think you just became my favorite poster.
Although, Marc @ 157 is close.
Mac;
How can you pass up “Revolution”?
“we-ell you know, we’d all like to see Corky gone…”
Although “Money” may be more appropriate for most players.
AAR, I highly recommend the last one, “Land of Salvation and Sin.” Great record from a band that knew their rock and roll fantasy was over.
I also think that stadiums should play really embarrassing introductory songs for visiting players. I’m sure that A-Rod is hearing a whole lot of “Borderline” and “Like a Virgin” these days, but for everyone. If you don’t feel creative, just slap some Barney on them.
LOL, though I bet MLB wouldn’t allow it.
Mac,
The Troll e-mailed you! YES
Actually, he left a message but I didn’t approve it. If he wants to leave another one, and it’s appropriate, I’ll copy and paste it too.
I’d think more like “Money for Nothing” for Arod or maybe for Mike Hampton now that I think of it.
My At-Bat Tune (but only in Yankee Stadium): “War Ensemble” by Slayer.
Just to wake up the folks in the corporate seats.
Fave Ga. Satellites Tune: “Battleship Chains.”
Saw them a couple times opening for Jason & The Scorchers before they got big—once at Hedgens in ATL, where they were the house band, and once at 40 Watt Uptown. Big, blazing rock, ass sufficiently kicked.
And put me down as a fan of most of DOB’s fave bands. He’s one of those American Music guys who likes lyrics—Dylan, Cash, TVZ, Steve Earle. There’s a big part of me that fits that description. Another big part likes dance rhythms.
CharlesP,
Thanks for that link. At the risk of extreme ridicule, I’m forwarding it to some of my pals here. There’s no hiding from it—it’s too damn funny.
Moises Alou …has a torn hamstring, he’s done. That must be really frustrating to know you can still hit, but can barely walk.
And… the Mets get on the phone to Barry Bonds.
“Money for Nothing” makes sense for Hampton but I don’t see how it fits for A-Rod whatever you think of the guy.
Basically, A-Rod gets the most embarrassing Madonna song you can think of. As a change-up, some of the usual horrible Lenny Kravitz can be substituted.
“Money for Nothing” only works in the post-season.
it’s 80s band flashback time–fwiw, I liked Guadalcanal Diary better than Jason and the Scorchers or GA Satellites
That 3rd Sats record is one of my top ten of all-time, easily.
I recently found a nice thrift store copy of “Whisper Tames The Lion” by Drivin’ and Cryin’. It holds up amazingly well, too.
So David Wright replaces Soriano on the All Star team. Shouldnt that have gone to another outfielder like Carlos Lee or Pat Burrell?
And I, of course, have a number of songs already lined up for our own Jeffrey Braden Francoeur.
Also, my entrance music in high school was Awake by Godsmack for a couple of years and then Certain Shade of Green by Incubus.
So David Wright replaces Soriano on the All Star team. Shouldnt that have gone to another outfielder like Carlos Lee or Pat Burrell?
Probably would have if Corey Hart hadn’t been voted in as the final choice.
Guess thats true.
I think I’d choose Thunderstruck by AC/DC.
Saw Guadalcanal Diary (Marietta’s finest) a bunch of times. Pretty smoldering version of “Johnny B. Goode” in their early days.
I remember once going to a Monday night show at the 40 Watt Club in Athens, when they weren’t that well-known (they only had an EP out). I walked in the club a few minutes before they were to go onstage, only to see the singer getting rushed out the front door, bleeding from the head.
“What the hell happened?”
“Murray got clocked by the ceiling fan upstairs. He’s gotta go to the hospital, so there’s no show tonight.”
That’s about as good an excuse for postponing a gig as I’ve ever seen.
url,
When Drivin’ n’ Cryin’ was kinda big, my girlfriend at the time used to cringe whenever their fans would call them “D n’ C.” It made her really upset.
FWIW, Hideki Matsui’s AB songs alternate between “Godzilla” (of course) and “Day Tripper.” I’m assuming the latter is his choice.
Better yet, why not play “Big Balls” or “TNT” by AC/DC — oi!
Url, I actually just picked up Drivin N Cryin’s Fly Me Courageous at a used book store the other day. Weird. It’s pretty terrific — had been meaning to check them out for years, glad I finally did.
Ububba, there are few experiences you’ve mentioned that I envy more than your getting to see Jason & the Scorchers back in the day. My good lord, what a kickass band. They were a country band that could stomp the hell out of just about any rock band that ever lived, and “Broken Whiskey Glass” is still one of the best country tunes any man ever wrote.
(Come to think of it, Manny Acosta’s entrance music should probably be “Help, There’s a Fire!”)
I met Guadalcanal Diary when they were recording Flip Flop Charlotte’s Reflection Studio (the same studio where REM recorded Murmur and Reckoning). I met the whole band and Don Dixon, who produced the album.
Speaking of Drivin’ n’ Cryin’, I saw Kevn Kenny at REM’s last Bill Berry show (Monster tour) at the Omni. Does it get more Atlanta than that?
ububba, where was the original 688 club located in Marietta? I live right down the street from the current location on Dallas Highway in a strip mall. I have to think that isn’t where it used to be.
i’d choose “straight outta compton” just to piss people off…
Chris,
Once, when I was DJing in this Long Island bar, I got a request for “80s hip-hop” from a dozen guys who came into the place very late. So after some Beastie Boys, De La Soul & Big Daddy Kane, I figured I go a little West Coast, so I dropped NWA’s “F— Tha Police.”
I didn’t realize they were all off-duty Nassau County cops. Ooops…back to the Beastie Boys.
JC,
The 688 Club was actually in midtown Atlanta (688 Spring Street), very close to Ga. Tech campus & The Varsity, just a short walk from The Fox Theater & Agora Ballroom on Peachtree.
There was a live venue in Marietta called The Strand, I believe. Saw The Ramones there once.
AAR,
Jason & The Nashville Scorchers remain one of the greatest live bands I’ve ever seen. They got a little metallic toward the end of their first run & began to attract some knucklehead fans. But their first 3 releases are pretty great.
And, yes, “Broken Whiskey Glass” is probably the best thing Jason Ringenberg ever wrote. My first semi-pro writing thrill happened when part of my review for that first EP ended up in their press kit (the review was in The Red & Black campus newspaper). Now, of course, I know that it’s no big deal, but it felt pretty good for an 18-year-old UGA freshman.
Oh, my God, that first EP… so incredibly good. Did you review the version that had “Absolutely Sweet Marie”? I’ve said this before, but I think that belongs in the discussion of best covers of all time, up there with Hendrix’s “All Along the Watchtower.”
Game thread is up.
AAR,
No, the Scorchers had an EP before that one.
Before Fervor, there was Reckless Country Soul, a 4-song, 45-rpm EP. The original “Broken Whiskey Glass” appeared there, plus a blistering cover of “I’m So Lonesome I Could Cry.”
And, interestingly, the original Fervor didn’t have “Absolutely Sweet Marie.” That didn’t get added until EMI picked up that EP for distribution.
But yeah, another amazing cover tune.
Oh, interesting… I only knew about Fervor. Man, they came storming out of the gate, didn’t they?
I lost that vinyl EP many moves ago, but I did find a CD of Reckless Country Soul that also included several of their 100-MPH covers of C&W standards.
Fervor may be the best “album” they ever did—“Pray for Me Mama, I’m A Gypsy Now” is a fave—but I’d really recommend that one, too, so that you can get an idea of what they were like live in the early days. They played a lot with REM back then and that was one helluva double bill.
Like Dan Zanes of the Del Fuegos, Jason now does children’s music…as “Farmer Jason.” Haven’t heard that stuff. Maybe when I procreate…