ESPN – Phillies vs. Braves Box Score, September 5 2007 – MLB
This would have been a lot more exciting if the Braves were still in it. The Mets really should give the Braves players a playoff share.
Tim Hudson, who probably should be shut down but there’s nobody else to give the team innings, allowed five runs in the first two innings and allowed eleven hits in five. That’s going to happen sometimes, I guess, but my impression is that he is hurting some.
The Braves had seemingly a chance to come back from that, cutting it to 5-2 in the sixth when Harris (!) homered and Chipper doubled home KJ, but that was all they got. Then Villarreal gave up three runs in the seventh, and it was 8-2. Presumably the game was over.
But the Braves got four runs in the eighth, one at a time; only one of the runs scored on a hit to the outfield, the others coming on a wild pitch, an infield single by Diaz, and a bases-loaded walk by Harris. But KJ and Chipper popped up and it stayed 8-6, and now the game was certainly over, right? And surely it was over after the first two men made outs.
But Francoeur reached on an infield single, and then Prado did the same (this is the sort of thing that happens to us, not the other guys!) and Escobar walked on four pitches to load the bases. Brett Myers was at over 40 pitches at this point and hadn’t exactly been blowing the Braves away, so you’d think that even Charlie Manuel would have made a move to bring in Alfonseca or someone, but no. Diaz hit a ball over the head of the right fielder, he just got a glove on it but not enough, everyone scored, ballgame.
Also, Soriano, who got the win, plunked Utley. It’s about damned time.
It feels good, even if we’re out of it. It feels good as a Braves fan to win a game like this. Good job team.
now we’re what 3 and 50 in one run games?
I just wish that Skip Caray could have been there to call it. WTF is with all the Mark Lemke action lately? If he starts getting regular time in the booth that could very well be it for my days as a Braves fan.
I am with you Some Yahoo.
S@E,
Letting the announcers dictate your fandom. For shame, for shame. Although, I’m sure there would be a lot less Yankee fans if everyone did that. 😉
I turned it off in the 7th figuring there was no way this lifeless team would even make it interesting. I’m pretty shocked they actually came all the way back. Unfortunately it’s too little, too late for the season, but it’s nice to seriously damage the Phillies’ chances at the division I guess. We’re only 1.5 games behind them now. 2nd place is still a possibility.
beedee,
*smart-aleck* Actually, it’s 16-22 :B *done with smart-aleckyness*
Hell of an improvement on last year’s record, though. That was 19-33.
It’s always a rarity when I root for the Braves, but this series was just such an occasion – thanks for delivering some soul-crushing defeats to the Phils.
I didn’t watch the last games but read the threads. What did Utley do to have everybody wanting his head?
http://www.baseballamerica.com/today/minors/features/264668.html
Worth your time, I think.
sam,
stick and stones…
good to see diaz play, i guess all that rest is paying off.
Stu,
Beautifully written.
And the guys is an athlete?
thanks for passing that along Stu
Utley kills us, and he was 3-3 with a walk, a run scored, and two RBI in the game. At some point you have to do something to gain a measure of control over the situation.
Thanks for the link Stu, that was an amazing read. Puts a lot of things into perspective.
And he has this little smirk on his face all the time. I’d hit him just for that.
Great story, Stu. Really enjoyed it.
Any thoughts on the Japanese free agents? The top guys are Fukudome (cf) and Uehara (a 3rd starter type).
This team might need some “marbles.”
I actually thought about Fukudome myself, but I think he’s going to go for a huge contract, something that only teams like the Yankees or Dodgers can provide.
I do’nt now about the situation with Uehara.
don’t know*
Man, that win was so stunning that I’ve lost control of my grammar skills.
One of them—I think it’s Fukudome—won’t require a posting fee, so that’ll offer some savings. Still, big market teams tend to break the bank on those guys, so I doubt we’ll be real players.
Nice read from the non-prospect diaries.
How do you pronounce “Fukudome”?
Foo-koo-dough-may
I pronounce it “Metrodome”.
His first name is Kosuke, which is pronounced “kos-kay”.
Stu,
Heh, that was funny.
I knew it wouldn’t be long before a joke of that ilk showed up. Very nice.
Thanks, Sam.
Torii Hunter is reportedly looking for 5 yrs. $70-75 million. We’re listed as possible suitors on MLBTR.com
Thoughts?
#30 – I would rather they save the money they may spend on a FA CF and use it towards signing Teixeria. Obviously signing Teixeria would cost more than 14/15 million a year, but it would at least be a good chunk to make an offer to him.
Well, at this point, Hunter is doing better than Andruw with about 2 wins better in the WARP department, but is that marginal?
I’d rather not spend the money on him. He has had just one other season of .500+ slugging and that was in 2002.
Aaron Rowand is the best center fielder in the free agent market anyway.
KLB,
I’ve thought that when Andruw Jones, his salary would be used to pay for Hudson’s and Smoltz’s salary increases.
Rob,
No problem. 🙂 Don’t ask me how to pronounce “Uehara” though; I’m still trying to figure that out.
#33 – True. Andruw is making $13.5m this year and Smoltz’s and Hudson’s raises next year will total $13m.
I guess my point was just to avoid spending $14/15m on a FA CF, which may prevent the Braves from spending money elsewhere. I’d rather spend an extra money on signing Teixeria long-term or on a FA pitcher.
Of course, if Liberty Media wants to raise the payroll over $100m then let JS spend away. Not that this is going to happen.
Any chance Chipper gets suspended for his comments about the umps?
Use Brandon Jones somewhere and move Francoeur to center (his original position). Give a cheap contract to Mike Cameron. But for the love of God, don’t spend a lot of money on a center fielder when this team obviously needs starting pitching.
So you have Andruw Jones, Hunter, Roward, Cameron and Fukudome as upcoming free agent center fielders? Talk about crowded. Imagine if Suzuki and Vernon Wells didn’t sign contract extensions too.
Didn’t you guys read Dave O’briens blog from the AJC ? He said he has heard Libery Media expects to up the payroll between 10 to 20 million dollars next season. This blog was right after the Braves acquired Mark Teixeria. Take it for what’s it worth. But it sure sounds positive for the Braves.
Yeah, I really hope that Brandon Jones tears it up in the AFL and Spring Training and gets a starting position. I think this team would be fine with Francoeur, Diaz, B. Jones, and Harris as the OFs.
I don’t. I think it would be the Braves’ worst regular outfield since the Dion James/Albert Hall/Oddibe McDowell days. (I don’t think all of them ever played together, but it wasn’t for lack of the team trying.)
Yeah, James was traded for McDowell, in a trade that did absolutely nothing for, or to, either team. But you get my point. None of those guys is an All-Star, and none of them is likely to ever be an All-Star (I include Francoeur) and all of them have huge holes in their games.
Mac, my thought was that it would be an average OF, and that would be serviceable. First and foremost, it would free up any money that could be spent on signing Teixeria or signing a FA pitcher as all four of those players would be cheap.
If you look at the OPS+ numbers of the Braves outfield in the last 10 years, you’ll find a couple of years that weren’t that great. The first one I noticed was 2001 with Surhoff, A. Jones, and B. Jordan at 86, 96, and 110, respectively. That’s pretty average.
To continue (it’s my site and I’ll clog it if I want to) here are your official late eighties Braves/late oughts Braves equivalents:
McDowell = Francoeur (talented guy, could never put it all together, at this rate will wash out of the league at thirty)
James = Jones (does everything adequately but nothing really well)
Hall = Willis (can’t hit but runs really fast)
Diaz = Lonnie Smith (Braves only)
KLB, that was at least an outstanding defensive outfield, while Jones-Francoeur-Diaz will be below-average at best.
Let’s promote Jason Heyward and let him play RF. I’m only half-kidding.
I don’t know who would be Tommy Gregg in this scenario. Thorman?
I’ve always wondered just how overmatched these top, just-drafted, high school prospects would be if you just stuck them in the majors.
To answer AAR question from previous thread regarding McCann: He is fine, should be able to play this weekend, will know more depending on how his ankle responds overnight.
Seriously, that outfield reminds me of nothing so much as something the Mets would have tried in the McIlvaine or Phillips eras. “We have Piazza and a great infield, we can get by with an outfield of 40-year-old Rickey Henderson, Brian McRae, and Roger Cedeno!” Though Rickey was actually good for them, the point stands; asking Teixeira, KJ, Chipper, and Renteria/Escobar to carry that outfield is like using a Ferrari to tow a $500 aluminum boat with a used outboard motor.
But isn’t that is what is going on already this year? And is putting Hunter/Rowand/etc. in between Francoeur and Diaz really that much of an upgrade vs. the money the team loses on going after other areas?
I just worry that Liberty is going to add $10m to the payroll and the Braves are going to get a FA CF to replace Andruw and that is the only move we’re going to see. Would that really make us better than the Mets/Phillies next year?
I hope this isn’t a repost, but the Braves official site has a story about how Cox’s loyalty has benefited Harris.
And killed the team. Ok, I added that part. Yes, Bobby Cox knew that loyalty would deliver Willie’s first homer in over three months.
http://atlanta.braves.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20070905&content_id=2190825&vkey=news_atl&fext=.jsp&c_id=atl
Dan, look up “David Clyde”.
The record of players coming up from college without playing in the minors is interesting. I think the last two were Bob Horner and Pete Incaviglia, who both started out hot but wound up as disappointments. However, both were kind of similar body types and seem like they would have aged poorly regardless.
I have a new rule for Braves pitching prospects by the way: All should do the equivalent of at least one full season at AAA before being called up.
I don’t know what I’d do, by the way, but I’d at least consider shifting Francoeur to center and signing/trading for a big bat in a corner.
Mac, what do you see as the huge hole in Brandon Jones’ game? All I know about him is from stats, but I don’t see any glaring problem. If he can translate what he’s done this year to the majors (granted a big if), he’ll be a better hitter than Francoeur already and possibly better than this year’s version of Andruw Jones.
nice one kyle…i needed that laugh
Jones doesn’t really do anything that well. He hits for an okay average, has some power, plays adequate defense, takes an average number of walks… Also note that his big numbers in Mississippi came when repeating the level. He’s a third wheel outfielder who would be asked to be the second wheel, if not the first, in that outfield.
So I guess he doesn’t have any huge holes, he just doesn’t have any real strong spots either.
I’m pretty sure Xavier Nady went straight to the Padres, skipping over the minor leagues.
It doesn’t really matter – the Braves are going to pick up Mike Cameron next year (already shuddering at the thought) – I would bet just about anything on it. They really do need to focus on starting pitching though, but who else do they have to trade (I don’t like the free agents at all – and the Braves need a #1 with Smoltz aging). Thanks for your services Renty! It was good while it lasted…
Nady did, but he doesn’t really count. He only played one game then went to the minors, and played a long time in the minors before getting established in the big leagues.
Cameron’s not a bad player at all, I don’t understand why everyone’s so down on him. He fields, he hits for some power, he walks. He’s a .250 hitter, but you can live with that considering his strengths.
I don’t think people are down on Cameron, Mac. I think people are down on the idea of spending the money he’ll command—and it won’t be chump-change—on him instead of a starter.
I like Cameron alot. He plays hard and has good defense. I just shudder at the low average b/c we’ve had to deal with it from Andruw.
so no chance at getting crisp from boston?
Send renty back for crisp and another player – that would be funny.
renty would be on suicide watch if we sent him back to bean town
If JS can pull off a #3 starter or better AND a stud CF this offseason, I’ll be impressed. It seems he’ll at least pull off a great acquisition for either but not both.
Though we should know better, Hampton is the #3 until he decides to hurt himself again. We’re really at his mercy this next year.
What’s a decent SP we could get for Renty straight up? Garland was clearly discussed. Anyone else? Maybe from the Pirates?
Arroyo?
Ian Snell.
I mentioned this earlier – we would probably have an easier time selling Escobar straight up for Snell than Renty. I know Renty is a lot better, but the Pirates can’t risk losing a young stud for an older shortstop when they aren’t going to compete in the near future. Unless, of course, they are completely retarded (Matt Morris shows that they might be).
I would LOVE if JS went after Snell.
The guys on ESPN just said that MLB teams were 517 and 0 when going into the 8th inning with a lead of 6 runs or more. Now they’re 517-1.
And guess what – I was at the game AND LEFT AFTER 7 INNINGS!
Renteria is probably the Braves’ best trading chip. Please don’t waste him on frickin’ Coco Crisp.
frank,
that is some seriously shit luck…so how is the braves vacation treating you otherwise?
dan,
boston wouldn’t take renty back, so no worries.
Notes: Kendrick’s five-inning stint was the shortest of his surprising debut season. … Braves SS Edgar Renteria took grounders before the game and expects to come off the disabled list before Friday’s game against the Nationals. …
Speaking of Francoeur, if what we’ve said about the farm system discouraging plate discipline is true, then he never would have improved at all if he was brought up, say, this season, right?
Frank, been reading your posts over the past several days. You have had some bad luck. lol… The second I heard about todays game I thought to myself “I wonder if that Frank guy was there for that ending?” Guess not. An ending like today might have made up for having to sit through that Mets series. Ouch, that one was bad.
Check it out:
Minor League Baseball Statistics and History – Baseball-Reference.com
It hasn’t officially launched yet, but wow.
Mac,
This is just another reason Baseball Reference is my homepage. I LOVE IT! 😀
Wow is right. Sean Foreman is slowly taking over the world.
Just watched the replay of the last few innings on MLB.TV. Unbelievable. Nothing but walks, bloops, and broken-bat flares and we scored seven runs in the last two innings. Diaz ball was the hardest hit and it probably should have been caught.
That’s a tough one to take if your a Phillies fan.
Wow. Lillibridge with 28 steals and 5 caught stealing in Richmond. Our leadoff hitter next year? Sure would be nice to have our own answer to Jimmy Rollins or Jose Reyes.
where would he play? I have a hard time seeing anyone other than Escobar or Renty at short
andruw was an amazing hitter in the minors…..what happened?
1996 totals at age 19:
34 hr’s, 92 rbi’s, .340 ba, .418 obp, and 30 steals
i knew he was good, but seriously, when did he become a power hitter only, and not a hitter in general. that is mind boggling for a 19 year old.
I remember back when Andruw and Vlad were both phenom prospects coming up through the minors at the same time. It was 50/50 who would be the better player.
Ron,
Lillibridge owns quite a few strikeouts, i’m not sure he would be the best leadoff guy. He also has been known to nap in the field. I hope we trade him before we end up this years version of Marcus Giles.
*up with
Feels like a big weight lifted off the shoulders after today. Hopefully this can provide some sort of spark.
I still haven’t given up all hope (just 99% of it), but the odds are definitely not in our favor in any way. If there’s one team that I could see collapsing, it’s Arizona. Some of those one run wins have had more to do with luck than superior managing, although I’m taking nothing away from Melvin. Unfortunately we’ll need for 3 or 4 more teams to follow suit if we are to have a chance, and that won’t happen.
I know Harris had a good game today and I would be thrilled if he hit .500 over the next 25 games, but the MLB article was pretty funny. The headline should tell you something: “Notes: Cox’s loyalty benefits Harris”. Unfortunately Cox’s loyalty hasn’t benefitted Diaz or the rest of the team over the last few months.
Yeah, God Forbid we wind up with another Marcus Giles, since the first one is only the best second baseman the Atlanta Braves have ever had. Sheesh.
Anyway, I’ve said this before and I’ll probably say it again: outs are outs. A strikeout doesn’t give the opportunity to advance a runner, but then again it takes away the double play. When people try to simulate offensive production, they usually wind up ignoring strikeouts — because there’s not enough effect there to measure versus other outs.
Now, strikeouts in a prospect can be a sign of a problem, and they can kill that prospect’s chances, as happened to Melvin Nieves among others. But I don’t think Lillibridge’s strikeout rate is nearly that bad. 120 strikeouts in 565 PA isn’t that bad. It may mean that he’ll never be a .300 hitter, but if he can walk enough that won’t matter.
Come to think of it, where would you want a high-strikeout guy but leadoff? If you really think strikeouts are a negative, then that negative is minimized in the leadoff batter, who most rarely hits with runners on base. In The Bronx Zoo, Sparky Lyle, or his ghostwriter, talks about Bobby Bonds, who held the single-season strikeout record for years. He says that teams would always acquire Bonds to be a middle-of-the-order hitter, but the strikeouts with men on base would frustrate them… so they’d move him to leadoff.
#87, good reminder about AJ and Vlad in ’96. It’s pretty obvious who stayed in better shape. And I know who I would rather have.
I agree Mac. I have no idea where all this negativity towards Giles came from, but we had come from a long line of below average second basemen before he came along. He was never well suited as a leadoff man, which just so happens to be when he struggled a bit, but I’d take him as a #2 hitter any day of the week. However, I can see Kelly surpassing him before too long if he can play like he did this year. I think he was, by far, the most underrated second baseman of the league.
I like KJ a lot, and he’s having a fine year… but it’s not as good as Marcus’ best season (2003) and only a shade better than his next two best.
Best seasons by an Atlanta 2B:
Marcus, 2003
Davey Johnson, 1973
KJ, 2007
Marcus, 2005
I agree Mac, but Marcus hadn’t just come off Tommy John surgery the year before. Give KJ some time, and I figure he’ll be even better. I think the most suprising thing about him this year is that he has alot more power than I expected. Hopefully he can keep it up.
Oh great, now we get to be the red-headed step child for the next couple of days – here is Fox Sport’s latest…
A Response To Chipper’s Comments
I know, pretty much everybody has given the Braves uo, and propably rightfully so. BUT, if this win doesn’t change the way the Braves have been playing, nothing will. What a most unlikely comeback. Remember when someone asked the questions a couple of weeks ago, who you wanted up in a 2-out-th-inning-bases loaded-situation? Just for the record, I did say Diaz at the time;-)
Bobby, see, he can hit righties!
Mac–let me add an impressive season for an Atlanta 2B: Felix Milan 1970. His numbers were good in 1970 and he was a great fielder as well(won Gold Gloves in 1969 and 1972).
@100:
That retard used Gameday as supporting evidence regarding that pitch. I think he should be ignored by anyone with a brain.
Re Questec, Chipper seems to be on to something. I computed the difference in runs scored per home game and per away game for each team in the AL (larger sample and more Questec parks than the NL). For example the Yankees score 1.3 more at home than on the road while the Mariners score 1.1 fewer runs per game at home than on the road. I then averaged the home/away diff across the 7 teams with questec home games and across the 7 teams without questec in their parks. The teams with questec score 0.4 more runs per game at home than away; the teams without questec score about 0.13 runs fewer per game at home than away. Adding the two difference together suggests questec adds more than half a run per game. I also looked at the correlation between questec and the home/away run differential—it was about 0.3. This is pretty crude because it can’t differentiate between park effects (bandbox) and Questec effects. It also treats all away games as if they were played in parks without Questec. But maybe Chipper is right that Questec gives a more predictable strike zone and leads to more runs scored. Then again maybe he’s wrong–I think JC found that Questec had little effect on strikeout/walk ratios.
I think Frenchy is having a better season than last. He is getting better, I think he will last past age 30.
mac,
i forgot marcus was your boy. i just don’t see lillibridge as being all that great. after watching him play he’s ok, but i wouldn’t place my hopes of finding the braves’ answer to rollins and reyes on him.
anyone making predictions on the nats’ series?
oh and all things FOX delenda est.
In 104, I didn’t mean a larger overall sample I meant more parks with Questec. The AL has fewer teams than the NL.
Because of my caveat that Questec and park effects are not separable, I computed the average park effect of parks with Questec and parks without Questec. Parks with Questec have an avg park effect of 98.5; parks without average 100.5.
It’s a nice win but the Braves were lucky. In two innings, they only hit two or three balls hard. And the Braves still managed to not come through in the clutch–a la KJ and Chipper in the 8th. And Hudson continues to suck. The Phillies must be going crazy because they didn’t really do anything to blow the game.
As for Marcus Giles, he was very, very good for a couple of years, but today’s Marcus is not the same player for whatever reason.
The Vlad/Andruw comparison is interesting. People have defended Andruw here in the past by saying it’s not fair to compare him to Willie Mays or someone like that. But coming up from the minors, everyone expected that he would be, if not in the Mays category, at least a great player. Everything in his minor league career suggested that. But he never became one but he got paid like one. We used to argue about this here, but I don’t think it was unreasonable to expect Andruw to be better than he has turned out to be. That’s not to say, obviously, that he was not a good player and his defense was astonishing.
druw may be washed up
fellas…we are around 5 years away from being SUPER Competitive…
Heyward, Johnson, and Jones form a dyanmic outfield (with frenchy)…and mccann will be around with KJ and escobar and lillbridge…
but im thinking…WHERE ON EARTH IS THE PITCHING????????????????????????????
My trade proposals – I will call them “full circle trades.”
We need to involve a third (and maybe fourth) team in the Renteria-Crisp deal. That way Renty does not go the Boston. One of the teams needs to be Cleveland and the Braves would end up receiving Andy Marte and Coco Crisp while only giving up Renteria.
The other trade sends Lillibridge to the Pirates for Ian Snell.
Mac – interesting comments about strikeouts at the leadoff position. Makes a lot of sense to me.
I don’t recall ever thinking that Andruw Jones would be a superstar, although I do recall years ago being frustrated with his strikeouts and double plays.
I do remember his defense though. He set the bar too high in 1999, though, and that just sends people like Jayson Stark ripping into him today.
*JStark* If he’s the greatest center fielder since Willie Mays, how come he didn’t keep up the FRAR/FRAA or Zone Rating?! Huh?! HUH!?!?! */JStark*
Chris,
We are well stocked with pitching in the low minors. Rohrbough, Hanson, Locke, Evarts, Richmond, Ortegano, Rasmus, Osuna, Bennett, maybe even Teheran. Five years from now, we may be okay, though it is uncertain how many will develop further.
Parish,
Hah, that’s a good one.
Off to Ibiza for a week. Not that I’ll be keeping up with it, but if we can fashion a 4-2 run vs the Nats & Fish during that time, I suppose I’ll take it, sad as it may seem.
As it is, my mind will be much more keen on the Dawgs/Cocks & I’ve already spotted out a “sports cafe” in Ibiza Town for 10:45 Saturday night. Lord, I hope they have ESPN2.
Go Braves. Go Dawgs. Adios for now.
Chris,
Wow. It’s comments like that that make me glad that I find things to hang on to.
I don’t have any desire to acquire Crisp–he has a .330 OBP and OPS of .710. Nothing special in those numbers. The jury is still out on how good Marte will be, but there are substantial doubts. Even with Chipper being a bit fragile, acquiring a backup 3B doesn’t seem like the highest priority. A starter and an outfielder (better than Crisp) are both more important.
I don’t mind dealing Renteria–the Boston year was abnormally low for him but I think he’s overachieved a bit this year–but use him to address starting pitching or the OF.
The thing is, while Vladimir Guerrero is still a frightening hitter, still probably one of the top five in the game, his defense has deteriorated, people don’t fear his throwing arm nearly as much, and he’s not stealing bases at all this year. He’s got an old body, and back problems never completely go away.
Andruw had a different career than we expected, but he has been defensively what Guerrero was offensively. Even still, if we get Mike Cameron to replace him for less than $10 mill a year, I’ll be happy.
I don’t recall ever thinking that Andruw Jones would be a superstar
Sam, how old were you in 1995 and 1996? Any Braves fan paying attention at that time had to think we had a future superstar on our hands.
AAR,
I don’t think Cameron can be had for less than $10MM/yr, but even if he can—and even if we have that kind of loose change, about which I’m skeptical—I’d rather spend that money on a pitcher or a Teixeira extension.
Does anybody think that Jordan Schafer is our future center fielder?
It seems he could be ready as soon as late 2008.
Schafer’s probably the future center fielder unless we move Lillibridge there, but that’s the first time I’ve heard anyone say he’d be ready in any part of 2008. He’s still only at High-A — and he started the year at Low-A. I’d give him the chance to win the job in 2009, but he needs another full year in the minors, at the very least.
He’s a good prospect, but he’s still a little ways away.
Unless he’s put on the McCann/Francoeur fast-track, which he may very well be if we are relying on Willie Harris.
Stu,
I was 12 and 13. I had only been a baseball fan for four years and was vaugely aware of Andruw being a top minor league player. The first “top prospect” I remember noticing was Wilson Betemit.
When I said “as soon as” I meant that would be the earliest he could be up.
It would be following a similar path to Andruw in 1996, blowing through the upper minors after a great season in Low-A. Schafer had a spectacular season in High-A this year, playing in a park that supposedly favors pitchers much more than anything Andruw faced.
Granted 2009 is a more likely ETA, but do you spend money on a multi-year deal for a CF when you need pitching and have Schafer on the way?
FWIW, Baseball America listed Jordan Schafer as having the 9th best season of any player in the minors this year.
Granted, they made Andruw the Minor League Player of the Year for two years in a row.
It was in 1997 or so that I seriously became a Braves fan and paid attention to their whole system. I think that was when I started reading Baseball Weekly.
Andruw was the top minor league player. In all of baseball. For two years in a row.
Anyway, the point stands: If you don’t recall expecting Andruw to be a superstar, you weren’t following the Braves when he was in the minor leagues.
Parish,
The didn’t make Andruw the top minor league player 2 years in a row—He was that great. The BA guys really didn’t have much choice.
*They
Stu,
I was 12. I still had “favorite players” and stuff like that. I read about the major league games every day. One of the things I remember about my vacation in Hawaii in 1995 was watching the Braves game from the pool and Fred McGriff hitting a go-ahead homer to beat the Giants the day before the All-Star Break. I was a bare bones fan. I probably thought Andruw was great because he hit those two homers in his first at-bats in the World Series.
But at the same time, I didn’t understand the budget aspects of everything, for instance. I was upset at the Braves in 1997 when they traded Marquis Grissom because he was my favorite player at the time.
Plus, I wasn’t aware of the true impact of statistics or potential for a long time. It was no skin off of my nose when Jermaine Dye was traded after 1996. In fact, I thought it was a good trade for a few years.
I only started to be aware of the real value of statistics only recently, like in 2002. It hit me like a truck in 2003 when Russ Ortiz was with the Braves. He drove me nuts with his incessant walks, and that was before I knew advanced statistics, which I’ve only begun to place value in the past few years.
I was a fan then, just not the fan I am today.
Sam,
Um, OK.
That long-winded reply came because I was a bit offended because you said that I wasn’t following the Braves if I didn’t expect Andruw to be a star.
Ew, I wrote “because” within a few words of each other. Gross sentence.
Oh. I guess by “follow” I meant “follow in more than a superficial way”.
Wasn’t meant to be an insult, just pointing out that your “I never expected Andruw to be a superstar” comment was based on your lack of awareness of what Andruw was doing and not on your analysis of his minor league track record.
Stu,
Yep, that’s it. 🙂
Sorry I took offense to it then.
FWIW, I was only 13 and 14 during those years and was similarly unaware of advanced statistics. I did keep up with the farm, though, and I knew that Andruw straight to’ up those minor league pitchers.
Heh heh, we all develop at our own pace. ;P
Sam, I’m with you — I was the same age at the time, the same love of baseball and the same utter lack of advanced baseball knowledge. Perhaps that’s partly why I haven’t been quite as disappointed in Andruw as Alex R. has been. After all, he HAS been a superstar.
But coming up from the minors, everyone expected that he would be, if not in the Mays category, at least a great player. Everything in his minor league career suggested that. But he never became one but he got paid like one.
Stuff like this kills me. People have short memories. Was 2005 really that long ago? If five all star games and nine gold gloves in ten years only makes you a “good” player than you are using the word wrong.
Stu,
To be fair, a lot of people follow the Atlanta Braves religiously but know very little about the minor league system. Without the internet, it was very difficult to get info on the minor leagues that we weren’t speciically fed by a few selected sources.
In the early 90’s, I went to a lot of games and watched almost every one. I would say that I had a deep understanding of our Major Leaguers abilities and shortcomings. I would not call that following the team in a superficial way, though I knew very little about the farm. I only knew we had guys named Chipper, Ryan Klesko, and Javy Lopez on the way because of comments made by announcers during the game.
Parish,
I disagree with you to some extent, I think. By “superficial”, I mean “surface-level”. I’m not questioning one’s passion for the Braves if he doesn’t know about the prospects, but I am questioning his knowledge about the organization as a whole.
And, yeah, you were limited as to what you heard back then about minor leaguers, but come on!—literally anyone who paid any attention to the minor leagues knew about Andruw Jones.
Even if we were mispronouncing his name at the time.
on Lillibridge, I disagree with beedee, I think he could be a great addition to the parent club next year, if not in a starting role in a utility role where he gets a solid 2+ starts a week. He has CF experience in college so he may be able to spell or platoon out there, plus he’s a very good fielder at short from what I’ve seen, better range than Escobar when he was here.
His K’s also worry me a lot less than they did earlier in the year, only 59 in 321 AB since being promoted to Richmond (under 1:5) compared to almost 1:3 at Mississippi. 42 steals on the year, 13 HRs, a good number of doubles and some triples, he’s an exciting player. Only piece that worries me a little is his BB rate has declined in AAA, but he at least has a history of being patient at the plate.
Stu,
I see your point. I kind of took offense at the word “superficial.” I would not dream of calling any fan that posts here after every game that, even if they have no idea who Cole Rohrbough is.
1) Again, I don’t mean “superficial” as in “Valley Girl”.
2) I referred to 12 year-old Sam, not the Sam who posts here, as a superficial fan.
More generally, I didn’t mean to offend anyone. I’m sorry, as I obviously have. I come to this site myself to acquire/hone a more in-depth knowledge and understanding of the Braves and baseball in general.
Lillibridge is an interesting player. I have him pegged much the way I have Escobar rated – valuable bench player for a good team, starter for a bad team. If Esco starts at short and Lillibridge in center next year, then I’ll know what kind of team we will be.
Not that valuable bench player is anything to sneeze at considering the dreck that’s been on our bench this year. A bench of Esco, Liilli, Prado, Pena would be a big positive (and real cheap) but none of these guys are impact players, IMO.
Mac is right of course that Ks are not the end of the world, but they are perhaps worse for the Lillibridge type of player than anyone else. The DP avoidance aspect is minimized since a player with his speed won’t be doubled up much anyway, and Ks of course allow him no opportunity use his legs to any advantage in getting infield hits or forcing defensive blunders.
I hope the Braves trade Prado this offseason. Otherwise next season he’ll be another crappy utility infielder with no homerun power taking up room on the bench, the 25-man roster and no-doubt taking starts away from Kelly Johnson because a left-hander (GASP!) is pitching for the opposing team.
I don’t want to see Renteria go this offseason, but he is the Braves’ best trading chip. I still don’t believe it is a coincidence that when he went on the DL is when the Braves started declining.
Here’s a post for Stu. Also features Wryn and me debating if Tommy Tuberville has any reason to be loyal to Auburn.
I can’t understand why everyone keeps saying the Renteria is the best trading chip the Braves have this offseason. First of all he will not be cheap for whoever acquires him, and he will be 32. Not many teams will be willing to go with that combination, especially when they will have to give up an impact player to get him.
Conversely, Escobar is young, and cheap, and still under control for 5 years. Same goes for KJ. So these are really the two most valuable and expendable trading chips the Braves will have this offseason. James is probably the most valuable, but he is not expendable at this point, unless they are receiving an upgrade in the rotation.
I know everyone’s wish to get a third starter, and I would love to see one come in. The problem is there aren’t a lot of them available, and especially not at a cheap price. To get a young quality starter like Snell, they would have to give up Escobar or KJ, and a pitching prospect or two. It would take less to get someone like Garland, but I don’t think there will be a lot of interest in Renteria.
On the other hand, I haven’t taken into account that there are a lot of dumb GM’s out there, and even a few who are on the hot seat, so nothing is out of the realm of possibility. I just think we’ll see Escobar or KJ leave before Renteria.
I for one think Lillibridge will fit in nicely on the MLB club next year. His bat is good enough to play him when Chipper misses a few games, he can probably play OF in a pinch, and he means we won’t need Woodward, even if we trade Renty! 😀
As for Andruw, I’d say he came near his potential once or twice, and he’s certainly lived up to the billing as a defender in CF. This year was obviously awful, but it’s not absurd to think he’s still got a couple of all-star years left in him. Sure, he was never the best player in the game. But he could still end up in the HoF. I’d say he’s been fine.
Also, anyone who seriously follows prospects and says someone is a lock to be the next Mays is insane.
The best part of the write-up to which you linked, Mac, is where Wryn assumed that Caleb King (a freshman at UGA this year) was going to Auburn.
anyone going to pick Auburn to lose to USF? They’re saying that USF has one of the best defensive lines in all of football right now. Cox better learn to throw the ball away or he may get lit up on saturday
Auburn will win, probably handily, but they’ll certainly win.
No one, certainly including me, ever said Andruw was a lock to be the next Mays. But many thought he was as good or better than Vladimir Guerrero. Andruw has been a fine player, but I think almost anyone would say that Guerrero–at least in his prime–was better.
Gosh, Andruw Jones has had a terrible career. He’s only a future Hall-of-Famer. Geez.
I would definitely offer Andruw arbitration, with a thought that he might actually take it. Paying a little bit more for one year would not be the end of the world. That bridges the gap to Schafer. If he doesn’t take it, we can negotiate a little longer and at least get the compensation picks.
I would love to resign him if we can do it for 4 years or less at “below market” terms. That money is better spent on a pitcher, but perhaps we could make a trade with that favorable contract in a year or two. I know he would have veto power.
I just really expect Andruw to bounce back next year.
No way–the best part of that link was Wryn said that Tuberville takes care of his players spiritually.
I agree with Parish. Resign Andruw if you can do it for 3 or 4 years at a reasonable figure but don’t go beyond that. I don’t expect Andruw to be worth the money in six or seven years.
Andruw has been very consistent with the exceptions of ’05 (his career year) and ’07 (where injuries have hampered him). I see no reason he won’t be putting up 30+ homeruns and 100 rbi a year when healthy for some team for most of the next decade. It won’t be for the Braves because he just will cost too much and they can’t outbid the New Yorks (both of them) and Bostons of the league if those teams want to try to sign Jones.
The team has scored plenty of runs with a sub-par year from Andruw, so I don’t see why there would be a huge offensive drop off if they let Andruw go and played a rookie in the outfield.
The Braves’ window for winning a championship with this team is very small. Shuerholz should spend the money saved from Andruw’s contract on a big time starting pitcher. If there’s any money left after that need is filled, then consider signing a 2nd tier outfielder (maybe Mike Cameron).
What do you mean, disgruntledfan?
If Mac doesn’t mind me copying/pasting:
“Tuberville sees himself as a father figure to his players. Most coaches do. But more than that, Tuberville sees himself and Chette Williams (team chaplain) as caretakers of his players. Tubby cares about his kids spiritually. I know it sounds trite and perhaps trivial. I know Tuberville is hired at Auburn to be the head football coach of a premiere team in America, but in doing so, Tuberville’s building a dynasty of good human beings. I know he’s in the business of winning ballgames and not in the business of producing good works with his club, but AU players are heavily involved in the community – sometimes half the team may take a summer weekend afternoon off to help with this charity or that one, manual labor in fields, you name it..”
No, I know what you were referencing—I’m asking what you mean by calling that the “best part”.
Are you saying the Auburn players aren’t good human beings or that Tuberville shouldn’t be lauded for training them as such? Or something else?
Mac,
As an Ole Miss fan I have to ask why would Tubberville feel any reason to be loyal to Auburn.
Jorgbacca,
As an Ole Miss fan, you should know it’s spelled Tuberville.
Also, from my inside-Auburn sources, Brad Lester’s career at Auburn is over. Look for him to transfer to Georgia Southern.
I just thought it was funny to say a football coach takes care of his players spiritually, mainly because I have no idea what that even means.
That and the mention that he’s building a dynasty of good human beings.
Not saying it isn’t true, just struck me as funny. Strange word choices, I guess.
Yeah, it’s not like the Braves have any other holes they could fill up with the 15+ million it’d take to keep Andruw Jones.
Wryn, is there more to it than the issues with his grades?
Yes, more issues with grades. Gotta go for a few minutes, I’ll hit the spiritual aspect of it in my next post.
Please don’t…I just thought it was funny. I’ve never heard of a player/coach relationship described that way.
Again, I’m sure it’s true.
Actually, it sounds like something Bill Curry would say.
Bill Curry is an extremely classy guy. He shouldn’t have been run out the door like that. Remember, in the third full season with his players, Gene Stallings won a NC.
You can always count on an Auburn guy to defend Bill Curry (who quit).
Mac,
What’s your predicted score for Saturday’s game?
0-3 career versus Auburn, you’re darned right I’ll defend him. Shula too.
Anyway,
In his recent book “Hard Fighting Soldier,” Auburn chaplain Chette Williams talks about how Coach Tuberville will periodically call players on his team and pray for them over the phone, tell them he cares for them, etc. Tuberville analyzed his teams at Ole Miss and Auburn and found that 63% of them come from single-parent homes. ANY element of a father figure for 18, 19 year old kids has to be a good thing one would think. Tuberville gets the max out of these kids that he can, and it’s well-evident.
If you notice Auburn coming out onto the field locked arm-in-arm, it’s a reference to “locking up” as hard-fighting soldiers, as expressed in an old Negro spiritual AU players sing in the locker room following games.
I’m a devout Christian, but even if I wasn’t, it’s hard for me to really speak out against such team unity when it’s for the betterment of these young men..
Find out Saturday morning.
I really think Bama wins going away in the 4th by 10-13. Earl Bennett may have a couple TD’s, but DJ Hall is equal to the task. Bama’s defense flips the field late with a turnover and Bama punches a rushing TD in late.
Bill Curry was the speaker at my high school graduation. Then they turn around and ask me for money?
Mac, rank the following Alabama head coaches in terms of character:
Bill Curry
Gene Stallings
Mike DuBose
Dennis Franchione
Mike Price
Mike Shula
Nick Saban
Okay, maybe bump Shula up a couple spots, but the list looks about right. Seems like Bama’s going the wrong way with the list.
I would have to rate Stallings ahead of Curry, and Price and DuBose at the bottom. Let’s see:
Stallings
Curry
Shula
Perkins (forgot him?)
Saban
Franchione
Price
DuBose
Mac,
Unfortunately, I won’t have internet access Saturday morning.
Wryn,
If Bama wins, I agree that it will be by double digits. I still think Vandy will win, though.
Shula third?
wow.
Any chance we get a poll on Roger McDowell?
At worst fourth. I don’t know anything too negative about Perkins, but he comes off as a jerk.
Saban you know about. Franchione, the same, except that he begged players to wait out the sanctions, then jumped for more money after they were stuck.
Price and DuBose are adulterers.
I’ll probably do McDowell tomorrow, Pendleton in a few days.
Price is a bit more of a complex case to me. He struck me as a fundamentally good guy who let his life fly out of control after getting a blue-chip coaching job. He was an instant legend around town in Tuscaloosa, and he drank himself literally retarded in Pensacola, but his stint at UTEP and the Alabama players’ reactions to his departure make a pretty good case that Mike Price is, and was, a decent man who made some awful choices.
Never mind. I thought you typed Saban 3rd…
Word on the street is that Lester had a group project last fall in a course, and the group project was also the final exam. Lester’s group was accused of extra collaboration or the group project was changed to every student for himself. Professor accused Lester of cheating on it. Nobody really knows what’s going on..
In Auburn’s last 16 games, Gorgeous Al Borges has engineered 8 games where the offense had under 300 yards.
Make it 8/17. Auburn’s offense finally gets on track and Auburn wins by 17. I mean, it’s South Florida. They surely can’t be within 10 of an SEC team at night, right? Right??
Well, it’s tough to judge a man’s character by anything other than the choices he makes.
I assume the Character Lists above are reflective only of their tenure as Alabama coaches, anyway.
Stu, I assume you’re going to the game?
Unfortunately, no, I’ll be in Gatlinburg on a mini-vacation with my family. I’ll be there in spirit, though! (And I’ll be taking a break from putt-putt to watch the game on TV.)
Stu,
Yes, but like you said, it depends on how large the body of work you’re evaluating is. If a temporary lapse in judgment coincides with one’s Alabama coaching tenure, is that his character?
There’s one putt-putt course that goes up a mountain in Gatlinburg. I highly recommend it. Can’t remember the name of it, but it’s on the left downtown as you head to Pigeon Forge.
Since Price never actually coached a game (I originally typed that “goached a came”, which sounds dirty) that lapse of judgment basically was his Alabama career. But he still finishes ahead of DuBose.
Dude, I’ve been to Gatlinburg so many times in my life, I’ve played ’em all. I think you’re referring to Hillbilly Golf.
Chuck G,
Yes, I’d call even a temporary lapse in judgment a mark of one’s character.
Mac,
How would the coaching rankings go if you changed it to ability?
You going to include any of the players in the Blame Game? (Like maybe Andruw?)
Wryn,
Apologize for misspelling Tub’s name. I’m actually one of those fans that doesn’t hold any real animosity towards him just because he left us a lot better than he found us. (Unlike the Orgeron. Who’s so Ron Zook like that I call him the Ogerzook.)
Wish he’d stuck around. I did find it incredibly ironic though that he milked the whole jetgate thing as Auburn not showing him any loyalty when he didn’t show it to us. Which is why I’d be surprised if he felt much reason for loyalty now.
Ability…
Saban
Stallings
Franchione
Curry
Perkins
DuBose
Shula
Can’t judge Price.
Gatlinburg mini golf is getting too glitzy for my tastes these days. I miss the old Putt-Putt and Misty Falls courses on Airport Road.
wryn,
i’ll be psyched if auburn can walk away with a win.
Saturday is Rod Smith’s birthday if anyone cares. I need to call him and remind him how bad he is in the latest NCAA game..
Stu, I don’t often comment on morality or religion here, but I’d be willing to view one action as a mark on character, not a mark of character, if you know what I mean. Of course, if that one action becomes habitual, or is representative of a wider tendency, then you’re absolutely right.
But I tend to believe that it’s best to give someone enough rope to hang themselves rather than judge them before I know the whole story.
Wryn,
Who’s Rod Smith? I’m sure I should know.
AAR,
We do know the whole story, at least the story of his adultery. I didn’t say the guy’s going to Hell—I know virtually nothing else about the man, and even if I did, ultimate judgments like that aren’t my call.
And I’ll respectfully disagree on the character issue. Your character dictates the choices you make, not the other way around.
Rod Smith
Auburn wide receiver (#80)- should be the leader in our receiving core, has the most ability of any of them, good soft hands.
Has four career TD’s, which shows how inexperienced we are there..
Our top WR is better. 🙂
Our athletic department is .. oh, wait..
You’re Vandy, stop talking trash.
…
That was good-natured, buddy. It’s not often we can say things like that truthfully. Sheesh.
(FWIW, our basketball and baseball teams are much better than yours.)
October 6th is now marked on my calendar with blood.
🙂
Wouldn’t you be a little testy if your team was about to lose to South Florida at home?
2007 Vanderbilt Season Preview
I harbor no delusions, my man. At least not with respect to that game.
Colonel Reb is crying in his confederate handkerchief..
Just a note regarding yesterday’s win lighting a spark. When I heard about it, I wondered too, but then I watched it. 3 bloop singles and a broken bat infield hit, a wild pitch, a walk. In other words, still no timely hitting and the only ball that was hit squarely (Diaz’s double) should have been caught. If we had pounded the ball around to come back, maybe I have a question mark about the rest of the month, but no, sorry, we’re in for “more of the same” the rest of the way.
End 6
Cardinals 16, Pirates 3
Ankiel: 2 HR, 7 RBI’s
Guys, guys, can’t we all unite about what we have in common? I mean hating Tennessee.
amen, Mac.
Current winning streak versus Tennessee: 3
What’s yours?
joesteve,
I think we all realize that. The Phillies lost, the Braves didn’t win. Leave it at that.
Yeah Mac. Those bastids stole Peyton!!!!
Yo Yo Yo Yo Brent Shayfur
Then again, even with how much the Braves have sucked, does anyone really think we’ll lose two out of three to the Gnats?
do you want the honest truth?
This team has taught me to expect to be letdown. Losing two of three to the Nats would be appropriate.
It would be appropriate, but I certainly don’t expect Smoltz to lose. The James game is a toss-up and the dreaded Jason Bergmann is pitching the third game. So I don’t expect for the Braves to lose two out of three, because I still think the Gnats blow more chunks than the Braves do, but it LOOKS like Atlanta will lose two out of three. We’ll see.
useless stat #13,569
smoltz has never lost a game to the gnats in september
*this year 😉
11:20 left in the game
Louisville 58, MTSU 42
so does louisville suck that bad?
Yes.
#195 – its is Hillbilly golf and you ride in a bucket up the mountain. G’burg is awesome in the winter time. If you go around New Years its nuts, its so packed you cant move
Ankiel hit 2 more hR’s tonight and had 7 RBI’s. I guess this guy can really hit. Next years HR Derby should be all pitchers (even former), make it interesting.
Owings, Jorge Sosa, Ankiel, Willis, find 4 more
Zambrano, why not Hampton…and of course, Maddux and Glavine 🙂
Adam, didnt Hampton get re-injured by taking his 3rd round of BP one day. I hope they dont let him pick up a bat again, but yes he can hit!
does Renteria start tomorrow?
1909 Honus Wagner card sells for 2.8 million
http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/story/7197580
csg, no wonder Ankiel is destroying the ball
http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/story/7199578
JC’s Kennesaw State colleague—and my sister’s professor, actually—says HGH doesn’t help baseball players.
I have trouble believing that myself, but his has been the most thorough work done on the subject that I know of.
Heh, and JC just put a post up about it over on his site.
everyone still sleeping?
When does this nightmarish season ends?
no doubt the team is still asleep.
Wednesday was a fluke win. There’s no reason to expect the team to suddenly go on a 22-0 run and make the playoffs. They’ll keep doing what they’ve been doing. Put the hope back in the closet until next year.
If anyone is interested, I have started a group on the Yahoo College Football Pick’em game for depressed Braves Fans. Group Name: BravesFans; password: delenda
Oh, Group ID is 35412
Dave Littlefield has been fired.
So my wife and I finally watched this game last night (whoohoo for DVR and TBS). One thing that I commented to my wife was “Bobby taking Andruw out was the reason we were able to rally.” We didn’t have Andruw in there hitting into his usually rally-killing DP.