ESPN – Braves vs. Phillies Box Score, August 12 2007 – MLB
Well, a 3-3 road trip to New York and Philadelphia isn’t that bad, right? Right?
Buddy Carlyle’s control was off last night, and he was lucky to allow just four runs in 4 1/3. As it was, Francoeur threw two men out at the plate. But in the fifth, leading 2-1, Prado and Escobar botched a double play opportunity, getting nobody, and Howard followed with a three-run homer. Then Bobby pulled Carlyle, a batter too late.
The Braves had an excellent chance to tie it in the seventh, when Prado double home McCann all the way from first with nobody out. Woodward got Prado to third with a sac fly, but our old buddy Antonio Alfonseca came in and struck out Escobar and Diaz, and the Phillies got the run back in the bottom of the inning. The worst thing about this series is that the Braves couldn’t do anything against the supposedly suspect Phillie bullpen.
Chipper drove in two runs in the first with a single, as the Braves got hits from the first three men. After that, they couldn’t do much. Kali pitched an inning and two thirds of perfect baseball in relief of Carlyle, a good sign. Moylan allowed the run in the seventh, a bad one. Manny Acosta made his debut with a perfect eighth.
Things I once again realized last night:
1. I really hate watching a game called by Jon Miller and Joe Morgan.
2. Morgan should just go ahead and marry Bonds since he’s in love with him so much.
3. ESPN cuts away for more nonsense than any other broadcast. Why did we need to miss Prado’s double to see Hank’s video message again?
Morgan is terrible.
That call on the double play was bullshit.
Each loss seems devastating. You have to keep reminding yourself there’s still a month and a half to go. Plenty of time to catch either the Mets or the Padres. 1-2 against the Phillies in Philly with the back end of our rotation pitching isn’t bad. Time to step and crush bad teams like the Giants though. Anything less than a sweep will be a disappointment.
I agree Ron, the split on the road trip isn’t too bad, but we need to mash the Giants at home this week. With an off day, then Smoltz, Hudson, and James going, a sweep is a good goal to reach for.
@2 The call was solid. Escobar clearly missed the base. The play at first was close, but I think the runner was just in there. It ended up costing us the game, but it was the right call.
Escobar was in the area, umpires have been giving teams that call for decades. Now they change it? bull shit!
I think that normally they would have given him the call, but the play was close and in those circumstances they wanted to make sure he actually touched the bag. To be perfectly honest, I wish they’d call the play this way all the time.
It’s unbelievable they would miss a scoring play and then Miller acts like, oh, big deal they scored a run. They are awful! And, please, Joe Morgan, stop pretending that Andruw is having a good year because his RBI totals are ok. Don’t you know anything about baseball?
The double play was a big play but the Braves were lucky they weren’t farther behind already. Even then, a two-run deficit shouldn’t have been insurmountable for this “formidable” offense. But against lefties, the Braves roll over. Think of it, playing in a hitter-friendly park, the Braves scored a total of 14 runs and in both games started by lefties, score runs in the first and are utterly stymied the rest of the way.
I don’t know what to say about this team. It’s the same thing over and over again. 3-3 isn’t bad and I didn’t think this game was as important as the last game in NY. But, at some point, you have to do more than just tread water. This team just seems to play with so little passion; when they get behind, it’s pretty much over. Once Howard hit the home run, you knew they were going to lose. The Nationals came from 5-1 behind the first-place D-backs. When’s the last time the Braves won a game like that? And they are utterly helpless against lefties. (I’m tempted to make a political joke but that’s dangerous here!)
Someone said anything less than a sweep against the Giants is a disappointment. I think you’re setting the bar pretty high considering the way this team plays. I can almost guarantee they will lose one game 5-4 after the bullpen squanders a lead in the 8th and the Braves load the bases and fail to score in the 9th.
I know this negativity annoys people but I find this team so disappointing and frustrating. They really aren’t even playing as well as they did in the second half last year. Carlisle is beginning to pitch like–well, like you would expect Buddy Carlisle to pitch. Maybe they should turn Francoeur into a pitcher; he certainly throws better than most of the staff.
OK, there’s my whining for the morning.
Does anybody know what the “L” stands for in Earl L. “Buddy” Carlyle? I can’t find it anywhere.
My wife and I had a more-than-5-minute discussion on what it might be, and my best guess is “Lee”. Just seems to fit.
guys you cant blame an umpire for making the CORRECT call, he clearly didnt touch the bag. If Escobar hadnt of stopped going to second on that play he would’ve been on the bag when Prado tossed the ball to him. I dont see how you can say that Carlyle had another terrible game, he minimized the damage done in the 1st and pitched well after that point. If Escobar had gotten one of those two outs, they probably pitch around Howard. However, I’m putting some of this blame on Bobby for two reasons.
1) most important – sitting KJ in another crucial game, we need to take that series. With that said, I thought Prado played a decent game other than not handling the throw in the 1st. Escobar should have been backing him up also
2) not bringing in Mahay to pitch to Howard again. Why let Carlyle pitch to him if you are going to pull him afterwards?
Acosta looked good in the 8th, btw
Escobar clearly missed the bag. I was disappointed that Bobby didn’t get tossed for arguing it though. You could read his lips and there were quite a few “BS”‘s.
3-3 on the road vs. Mets and Phillies isn’t bad. If it’s the playoff’s that gets you to game 7.
Re: the botched double play, I’m with Mac and Smitty. I agree that I’d like to see the rules enforced as they’re written at all times; however, given the fact that this particular rule has been virtually ignored ever since I started following baseball, it’s incredibly annoying to have the game change on one umpire’s random decision to enforce it this one time.
And I agree with Alex from the previous thread with respect to Yunel’s defense. The common refrain seems to be that we’ll lose a little offense when we lose Renteria, but the defense will improve. Um, I disagree. Escobar obviously has a strong arm, but I’ve been very, very unimpressed with his defense all season.
Mainly, I just hate our offense.
Agree with points 1 and 2, csg. Show of hands from anyone who expected anything other than a homerun from Howard there.
Andy, I didnt think Bobby would get tossed on the Escobar missing the bag call at 2nd, I did think that he would get tossed on the throw to 1st. He was more upset with that call over anything. He knew Yunel missed the bag and its hard to argue a play when you can clearly see it was the correct call. BTW, you can say that Yunel’s defense definitely cost us either one or both of those games. Good thing is we didnt lose any ground to the Mets, still plenty of baseball to make up the 3.5 difference
I think everyone here and the players on both teams knew it would happen, with one out why not bring in Mahay to pitch to Howard or walk Howard and bring in Moylan for a DP opportunity?
I think umpires give the ‘in the vicinity’ call on a DP when the fielder looks like he touched the bag but the ump couldn’t see, or he touched the bag but maybe just after he threw to first. That is, I think the give the benefit of the doubt to the fielder if it looks like he should have made the play. This play wasn’t close, even watching live.
I also enjoyed later in the game when Francoeur was going for his 3rd assist and threw the ball over the dugout.
I thought we were screwed on the call on the double play. Umpires give that call every game, practically. And with Rollins bearing down on Escobar’s ankles, it’s not the time to change the way you call the game. Iguchi was safe at first, so maybe it only cost the Braves a single run, but maybe Ryan Howard doesn’t get the same pitch under different circumstances.
Anyway, the call went a long way to deciding the outcome of the game and that should not have been the case. I would really hope our offense is capable of scoring more than one run over the last 8 innings at CBP.
It seems like the outcome is acceptable, but with Phillies missing Utley, Victorino, and Bourn, we really should take the series. We even won the game started by our #5.
I don’t see how you can say Carlisle pitched well when you consider that Francouer saved at least two runs by throwing out guys at the plate. Who knows how many runs he would have given up without those plays.
The thing about the “neighborhood” play is that you have to be in the neighborhood of the base. The rationale, I think, is that the umps fear that making the guy stay on the bag might result in a serious injury if the runner hits him breaking up the double play. But you still have to be close. And even if it was a bad call, those happen all the time for and against. Complaining about bad calls costing the game is just a loser’s game. You have to overcome them.
I don’t really think Yunel’s defense is the blame for the two losses. There was no way the Braves were going to win that game 2-1 and the way Carlisle was pitching, it was just a matter of time. And those really weren’t routine plays. Players are going to make errors. There was no reason that 4-2 should have been out of reach in that ballpark against a mediocre pitching staff. And it’s hard to win a tie game when you get one hit after the first inning.
@11
Stu, well put.
My lack of faith in Andruw Jones has reached a new level. He has never been a guy that inspired a ton of confidence anyway, but in the past when he came to the plate, I always felt better knowing that even though he made some ugly swings, his ability to hit a bomb intimidated pitchers. Now, I don’t think he really intimidates anyone. Last night, I actually thought to myself, “Boy I’m glad Andruw is leading off the ninth inning. That way, his dinky ground ball/pop-up won’t kill a rally later in the inning. At least he can go ahead and get his guaranteed out, and he won’t be hitting into a double play/strking out with the bases loaded later.” I felt bad for thinking that way, but then I realized it was true. Depressing.
It’s pretty obvious Andruw is playing hurt and I think he deserves a lot of respect. Some people have suggested that Bobby is playing him out of loyalty but I don’t think so. I think Bobby thinks the team is better with AJ in centerfield even if he is struggling to hit. If you DL Andruw, you force Harris to play against lefties, whom he can’t hit at all, you weaken the defense at least marginally, and you lose the one guy (Diaz) that can come off the bench and provide some pop in the late innings. (Don’t talk to me about Thorman.)
Please DL Andruw.
Brandon Jones now hitting .344 at AAA with a .963 OPS.
Does Andruw still have the lowest batting average among MLB regulars? Anyone know? Just curious. I remember hearing that earlier in the year, but I wasn’t sure if it was still the case.
I might add B. Jones’ BA over the last 10 games is .488.
The neighborhood call is made when you appear to have touched the bag or to have drug your foot over the top of it. Escobar stopped a foot short of the bag, no way he should have been given that call, but I did think he was out at first.
By the by, I am officially in fast forward mode for all Andruw AB’s, and if that’s not an option, I leave the room. It worked for Francoeur, hopefully it can help Andruw by October 1.
Blaming Andruw is pointless. Every team has at least one player having a bad year. Everybody keeps talking about how good this lineup is and how, on paper, the Braves have the best team. If they are so good, they should be able to overcome one guy having a bad year. Andruw wasn’t the guy that struck out with the tying run at third.
Question: should Willie or KJ have hit for Escobar in that situation, knowing that it would have meant that Woodhead would have stayed in the game at short?
Second Question: Should Willie have hit for Diaz, knowing that the Phillies could have come back with a lefty?
Does Andruw still have the lowest batting average among MLB regulars? Anyone know? Just curious. I remember hearing that earlier in the year, but I wasn’t sure if it was still the case.
He does yes. I feel bad for him. He’s obviously hurt but still out there trying, taking extra batting practice but getting nothing out of it.
3-3 is not the end of the world. This is pretty much a .500 team, always has been.
The answer to your Second Question is, for me, an easy “no”.
Robert,
I don’t blame Andruw. Honestly, I don’t. I feel an overwhelming sense of dread before and an overwhelming sense of despair after each of his ABs, but I recognize that he’s not trying to fail.
I do blame Bobby. Andruw’s killing the offense—you can’t tell me that Willie against lefties would be any less productive than Andruw—and not only does he continue to play every inning of every game, but he doesn’t bat 8th. Baffling.
DLing Andruw does not just get him out of the lineup for a few days. I am more interested in having him healthier for a potential playoff run.
We could probably even bring up Gregor Blanco who is supposedly strong in center. He would not hit as well as Brandon Jones probably would, but I do not think there is much chance he would be worse than Andruw is right now.
Let’s get Andruw healthy.
3-3 on the road is respectable with the way this team has been playing, esp/ w/ the way our starters pitched in this series.
I never said that Carlyle pitched well, but its not as bad as some are making it out to be. Franceour did save him two runs, but he’s suppose to be able to throw guys out. Other than James our starters were way below their expectations for those series
The problem with calling up Blanco is that with Escobar playing every day the Braves would play most games with [checking to see if Tony is here] three guys in the lineup with no home run power, four if you count the pitcher. That’s a dangerous position to be in.
Actually, 3-3 would be just fine against playoff caliber teams if we could do better than .500 against the bottom of the League.
Yeah Mac that’s ludicrous Escobar and Blanco could develop power over the next two weeks, and then we would still have an awesome lineup.
whats the deal with Doug Clark, he’s shown some power…is he useful at all
is anyone, somewhat, hoping that Andruw shows some problems with his MRI?
I agree with sitting Andruw. I give him credit for playing hurt, but it is also hurting the team. If he can’t hit, which is obvious, then sit down and get healthy and take your extra BP.
I’d love to bring Brandon Jones up, but I’m not sure he is ready. Sure he is batting .480 the past couple weeks in AAA, but he’s only been in AAA a month or so. Also, doesn’t that start his arbitration clock? I’m not familiar with how that works.
What I hope csg is that they find something that can be fixed with about two weeks of rest, and convince Booby to send him to the DL.
I agree with Parish, # 33 – the problem isn’t going 3-3 against Mets and Phillies, its that the team can’t put a real run together when we play the bad teams in the league.
I think the ump made the right call even though, like everyone else, I knew either Burrell or Howard would follow with a homer. It was as predictable as Andruw’s batting futility.
Sure Prado and Escobar should have made the play, but I don’t think Prado should have even been in the game. We’ll never know but I bet if KJ was playing (as he should have been) then at least one out is made.
Here are ops numbers for KJ, Prado, and Escobar versus lefties and righties:
KJ: .800 vs lefties, .940 vs righties
Prado: .367 (!), .944
Escobar: .809, .691
Granted there’s a small sample size, but Bobby’s fetish of sitting KJ vs lefties means that last night’s lineup had a guy with a .367 OPS vs lefties rather than a guy with a .800 OPS. BTW, since KJ and Escobar are essentially the same vs lefties that platoon isn’t harmful.
The offense gets off to a good start…and our damn starting pitchers give it right back…looks like it just deflates the offense.
Buddy got lucky in the Mets game, but was horrible is this game…his last 2 starts have been pedestrian at best.
Andruw Jones is killing us…
We needed Edgar against a pitcher like Moyer…someone who knows how to hit.
Rollins and Reyes proved what speed will do in the leadoff spot. I hate both of them.
Escobar…showed your youth tonite.
The next three weeks are:
3 v. SF (.422 winning pct.)
3 v. Arz (.563)
4 @ Cin (.427)
3 @ StL (.478)
3 @ Fla (.466)
I think the Braves need to go 11-5 or 12-4 to have a chance at the playoffs.
Agree with Andy. They can’t keep fooling around and saying there’s still time. Time is running out.
Also agree with Frank. Why does a 25-year old need a rest in the middle of a pennant race while Andruw plays every day when his arm is falling off?
Mac, I would not consider Andruw a guy with real homerun power. You have to make contact to go yard. Andruw has hit one homerun in August and one double. Going back to July 19th (the end of his brief “hot streak”), he has two homers and three doubles, playing basically every game.
Yeah, I know Blanco would have even less power than that…maybe more doubles.
Brandon Jones would be the better offensive player to call up, obviously. Blanco would be going the defensive route. The point is that we would hope to get a better Andruw back after a rest.
bravos definitely need to step it up against these teams in the next couple of weeks that are below .500 — it’s difficult to watch them tread water and lose close games like this. they can’t seem to do the little things — getting runners home from 3rd with less than 2 outs, actually swing at a pitch with 2 strikes and the game on the line (willie seems to like to do that), etc. And then there are always the routine starter and bullpen problems. It just makes it incredibly frustrating to watch. I agree with those that have suggested that this team lacks passion or killer instinct or something… they just seem to lose too many winnable games. hopefully they will plow through the next couple of weeks.
The only reason Martin Prado started was b/c he was 4 for 9 (.444) against Jamie Moyer…not b/c KJ needed a day off.
Andy, 11-5 or 12-4 sounds about right, but I am not too optimistic.
Tony–you might be right that it was Prado’s success against Moyer rather than Bobby’s platooning. It’ll be a few days before we find out–the next 5 opposing starters are righties.
By the end of that stretch, KJ will need “rest”, though, Frank.
Hall & Oates better start making videos again, if we’re going to have enough to get us to the postseason.
11-5 might work–but only because we are capable of thrashing the Mets.
What is the Braves record post-Teixeria trade? It seems like we are still a pretty much .500 team which is not going to cut it….
Frank,
That was the only reason and Prado did have two hits off the guy…I just hope Bobby doesn’t get platoon happy.
Just thinking about that Diaz bat…Were you watching the Escobar at-bat? Swung at pitches that were actually balls and struck out…
” I agree with those that have suggested that this team lacks passion or killer instinct or something”
Isn’t that the one of the reasons this team has only 1 World title in that run of 14? So we should be accustomed to it.
Not to beat a dead horse (or, maybe to beat a dead horse), Braves are 55-55 since April 11, 46-47 since May 1, 38-44 since May 12, 15-14 since the All-Star break, and 6-5 since Aug. 1 (Teixera’s first start). They are consistent anyway.
Well Kelly has never played a full major league season and he is coming back after a year off from elbow surgery. It’s not all that unreasonable for Bobby to give him a few days off now and then especially vs lefty starting pitchers. It made more sense when Renteria was healthy and Escobar was the one taking Kelly’s spot of course.
I’m with those hoping Andruw has a sprain or something that requires him take 2 weeks off on the DL and then he’ll be fine. I’d like to see what Brandon Jones can do vs major league pitching. His AAA numbers are very impressive.
The Braves need to do what the Yankees did in July: destroy the bad teams and go .500 vs the good teams (which they accomplished on the road trip btw). More flops like against Cincinnati last month won’t cut it.
It’s not all that unreasonable for Bobby to give him a few days off now and then especially vs lefty starting pitchers. It made more sense when Renteria was healthy and Escobar was the one taking Kelly’s spot of course.
I’d call it “incredibly unreasonable” to rest him in favor of Martin Prado. The Moyer thing I can understand, but if this persists in the future, I might go crazy.
#55
Stu, you are 100% right. it’s very unreasonable. KJ is young, extremely talented, and offers the Braves decent power and a good eye. His defense is solid.
There’s no reason to start Martin Prado no matter who the pitcher is, unless KJ is hurt and the only other option is Woodward.
The bottom line is this. The Braves were 3-3 this week and while we all accept that as “not bad” considering it’s road games against division rivals, the fact is, if you look at those 3 losses, they SHOULD have all been wins. This in fact should have been a 6-0 week which considering the Mets 2 losses against Fla., we’d have sole possession of first place, be white hot, and build that momentum to the Playoffs.
I am less upset by the umpire’s call than the fatc that Escobar made a heart crushing error for the 2nd time in 3 games, added to the fact that Bobby made another crucial error by playing Prado.
The bottomline is this…since the Phils and Mets have a ridiculously easy Nats/Pirates week ahead, we HAVE to sweep the Giants with the Diamondbacks looming. With Bonds home run “chase” over, there’s absolutely no reason not to get the sweep.
Also, one must consider we’ve spent the entire week now without our best hitter over the entire season, Edgar Renteria.
Let’s get him back in a few weeks and see what we do against the division again, this time at the friendly confines of Turner Field.
Alex R..
You know when Bobby’s players always talk about being happy? This is why. Did Prado deserve a start? Probably not. But he got one anyway. Prado gains confidence, the extra AB’s, and becomes just a smidge more reliable for a stretch run..
“ridiculously easy”
Don’t count out the Nats…especially at home, and they will be up against the Mets.
The Pirates are major leaguers too…but I really actually like the Nat/Mets match-up in RFK.
You know when Bobby’s players always talk about being happy? This is why. Did Prado deserve a start? Probably not. But he got one anyway. Prado gains confidence, the extra AB’s, and becomes just a smidge more reliable for a stretch run..
Yeah, but how important is Prado’s happiness, really? I’d say not all that important. And if we’re depending on Prado’s reliability during our stretch run, we’re in trouble anyway, whether it’s increased by a “smidge” or not.
What about KJ’s happiness? What about giving KJ a shot to get a “smidge” better against lefties? These seem like things the team will need a lot more than whatever marginal benefit it gets from a slightly less terrible Martin Prado.
Give KJ his ABs. All of ’em he can get. If he gets hurt and we’re forced to use Prado, Prado will have plenty of opportunity to get better then.
Not sure if this was noted in the game thread (they are much too daunting to wade into after the fact these days) but I saw on mlb.com that the Braves finally signed their first round pick, Jason Heyward. Jason will play with the GCL Braves until their season ends in late August and then go to the instructional league. I believe he signed for slot money (after all that wait!).
Link
@9
csg well said. i think buddy has done well for us and playing at the vet was no help to him yesterday. Escobar is a rookie folks. he puts more preasure on himself because he knows how much he has to step up at SS. he’s been playing non-stop for over two years now and i think he’s gassed. KJ has earned his stripes and bobby should play him everyday. Prado can go be happy somewhere else, he should be happy he’s in ATL to begin with.
Once again folks: The only reason Martin Prado started was b/c he was 4 for 9 (.444) against Jamie Moyer…NOT b/c KJ needed a day off.
Please stop the worrying…Now if KJ doesn’t play against the next lefty, then we can whine and cry. Otherwise, relax.
Prado is not the problem. He got an RBI, didn’t he? No, the problem was that the Braves didn’t score when they had the chance. Alfonseca made some nasty pitches to Escobar and Diaz, and Rollins rose to the occasion, scoring three times. Tip your hat to the Phils and move on.
Prado doesn’t have to have been last night’s problem for one to recognize that playing Prado over KJ is a problem.
Again, though, I can understand the Moyer thing. Like I said, I’m just wondering whether it’s going to happen again in the future.
I don’t know if this was posted before, but I just read it for the first time on the Braves’ site:
“Young Schuerholz retires: Braves general manager John Schuerholz’s son, Jonathan, opted to end his professional baseball career on Friday and set his sights on completing his business degree at Auburn University.
Jonathan, who was selected in the eighth round of the 2002 First-Year Player Draft, hit just .223 during his six-season Minor League career. But he was always known as a popular teammate who displayed the type of personality that may one day allow him to follow his father’s successful footsteps.
The younger Schuerholz certainly left the game with a few lasting memories. In his final nine games with Triple-A Richmond, he hit .280 (7-for-25) with three homers — the only three he hit in 152 at-bats this year. “
Random, unrelated question…What was the rationale behind the decision in 1998 to move the Brewers to the NL when the Devil Rays and Diamondbacks entered the league? Why would they seek to create an inbalance in the number of teams in the NL and AL?
I agree with the earlier comments regarding not understanding the decision to sit Kelly in what was a pretty important game. I know there was a lefty starter but KJ has been coming up with some very timely hits as of late.
Last night was also a great demonstration of that missle launcher attached to Frenchy’s right arm. With his improved approach at the plate, he is really one of the more exciting young players in the game. IMO
Re JS, Jr retiring–I was hoping he might get a try as the 5th starter. 🙂
Kidding aside, good luck to him at Auburn.
http://crimsontusks.com/about22064.html
Actual thread on RollTideBama.com
Okay, I’m doing my Auburn preview today or tomorrow. No respect.
I was at the game last night in Philadelphia and got home really late – in Baltimore – so I’m sorry to be getting on the thread late this morning (well, noon). I have a few observations.
(1) Philly fans were fine last night. There were a lot of Braves fans around, usually quiet, as they usually are, but it was nothing like being at an Eagles game as a fan of the opposition. There’s always the usual idiots who know little or nothing about baseball, but then, those folks are at every game. And it seems we had the luxury of having two of them in the broadcasting booth last night anyway. I actually sat next to a Braves fan from UGA. Nobody said a word all night to either of us, even when we cheered Prado’s double. Again, Phillies games are nothing like Eagles games.
(2) After watching him in person, and after sitting there with my friend who’s a Philly fan, I’m officially off the Escobar bandwagon. Say what you will about his spotty defense, but we got the luxury of seeing him watch his long fly ball out (great play by Rowand) as if he were Bonds or Sosa – two guys who have generated considerable animosity for such antics, two guys who have a couple more homers than does Yunel – and the ball wasn’t even out of the ballpark. Had Rowand not made a great play, Escobar would have been at second, not third, where he should have been. He doesn’t run hard and he didn’t back up Prado in the 1st and he just kind of annoys me. Get that kid in his proper role as a reserve player, please!
(3) AJ is killing all of us… nothing more to say.
(4) I couldn’t believe they let Howard have anything to hit in the 5th. Let Rowand beat you!!! Why is this so hard? Utley and Victorino were out and the bottom of the Phils lineup was just poor. Let the other guys beat you. Howard does three things: he walks, strikes out, and homers. Pitch around him and let him and let him do one of the two former, not the latter. Of the entire game, everyone in my section, fans of both teams, were confused at that the most.
67–one probably needs an even number of teams in each league for scheduling purposes. I suspect this is true even with interleague play.
Why the Brewers? I think Selig might have wanted the rivalry with the Cubs. Just a guess.
The 4 for 9 thing against Moyer is wildly overblow because A) it’s a very small sample size and B) Kelly Johnson, in many of our eyes, is an All Star calibre offensive player at 2nd Base (or will be by next year and is already very good) and the bottom line…you play your best players.
Tony, according to your rationale, say Woodward was 4 for 9 against Moyer but Chipper was only hitting .231. Would you then adovocate to bench Chipper against the Phils and start Woodward? That’s nonsense. You go with your best players unless your best players (Andruw Jones) stink beyond reason–then you sit those guys (or DL them) and put people in who can actually get a hit.
Regarding the point about Willie’s inability (supposedly) to hit lefties…it’s not ideal, sure, but give me Willie these days over Andruw. And the catch Willie made in CF against the Mets show his range and athleticism.
By the way, one other thing that should be made a bigger deal of on here…BIG KUDOS to Jeff Francouer in right field.
We can all argue over how good or not good Jeff’s eye at the plate is, but his 2 putouts Sunday kept us in the game. Frenchy deserves huge love in this room for his outfield play.
I am less upset by the umpire’s call than the fatc that Escobar made a heart crushing error for the 2nd time in 3 games, added to the fact that Bobby made another crucial error by playing Prado.
Esco may have more range out there but I’m not buying this supposed defensive upgrade we get over Renteria. Esco is still very raw. Poor footwork that caused the bad throw on Friday and botched two double plays last night. I hope Edgar is healing fast.
Mark – @ 67 They did not want to have an uneven number of teams in both leagues. There must be some scheduling difficulty in always having an interleague series in process.
Craig – @ 68 On Francoeur, I definitely agree. I cannot believe the distance by which his throws beat those Phillies’ runners to home.
Suppose Harris can’t hit lefties very well–why not platoon him and Andruw in CF and have Diaz play everyday?
One other thing: did everyone see Frenchy react after he struck out late in the game last night? He flung his bat and threw his helmet. I haven’t been to many Braves games the last few years, only a couple each season away from Turner Field, but it was great to see one of the players actually get emotional. Frenchy has grown on me all season, and last year I was one of his harshest critics. I wish we could see him, McCann, and KJ in the lineup every day together.
And yes, Renteria has to get back soon. Any word on that?
Re: Prado. Bobby has always done stuff like this. In the early ’90s, I used to get pissed off when he would start Belliard and Lemke instead of the better hitting Blauser and Treadway.
#67, They needed to have even numbers of teams in the leagues otherwise they wouldn’t have been able to have each team play every day. Since Milwaukee used to be home to the NL Braves, it made a certain sense they would be the team to switch.
I give a huge amount of credit to Frenchy for those two huge throws, although the first one was the slow footed Burrel running, the second was Werth who has above average speed, and the angle which he took that hop was tough. So the second throw was much more impressive, and I am glad we have that guy on our side. Wish he would have made a better throw at Rollins, because I think he had a shot and just rushed it. That would have been the perfect game for a Right Fielder if he would have pulled off that hat-trick.
“Tony, according to your rationale, say Woodward was 4 for 9 against Moyer but Chipper was only hitting .231.”
First of all Alex R, it’s not my rationale…it is why Prado started. Don’t blame me.
Secondly, Prado has two hits off the guy, I believe that was more than anyone else in the line-up.
Adam M,
I to like the emotion shown by Francouer, something we never see from Chipper or AJ. Maybe Francouer can be out Paul O’Neil(one of my all-time favorite players).
Thirdly, as much as we like KJ, he is not no Chipper. C’mon that was a terrible analogy.
Damn, how did that thirdly get out of sequence? lol
Bottom line: Kelly Johnson is signifigantly better in every facet of the game than Martin Prado. Unless KJ is hurt, you play KJ. It’s that simple.
It looks like the Braves will not be signing Fields:
http://draft.mlblogs.com/
Since Fields was a Boras client, this can hardly be surprising.
I hope that they can at least one or more the following: Shreve (8th round), Belt (11th round) and Demny (15th round); this draft was a very thin on pitching prospects (but rich in position players).
I just had a terrible thought!! Since KJ didn’t get a hit of Perez or Hamel and actually looked pretty bad…maybe this is the beginning of a platoon with Prado…
Wow…wouldn’t that be something.
Perish that thought.
I’m going to consider Prado’s appearance a one time only type of thing based on his (continued) success against Jamie Moyer. Sort of like how Joe Torre always would put Enrique Wilson in the lineup against Pedro Martinez. Probably not worth worrying about.
#84, I have a bad feeling you could be right. Bobby was already platooning Kelly with Escobar before Edgar’s injury. I could easily see him going for a new platoon. He’s always loved to play righty-lefty matchups beyond all reason. Let’s hope we face mostly right handed starters the rest of the way!
On a different note, I really liked what I saw of Manny Acosta. I didn’t realize he was a rookie. For some reason I was thinking he was some journeyman. I wonder why it took this long into the season for him to get a call up.
Actually, if KJ gets platooned with Prado, that could be a deal breaker with me. I know Bobby won 14 straight division titles, but if he seriously platoons KJ with Prado I will simply forfeit the rest of the season out of sheer disgust for overmanaging. (this is not true; but I will tell it to myself) There is no reason under the sun, any sun, for that move.
After Utley, what are the OPS standings for MLB second basemen? Anybody know?
#88
Amen. I agree 100%. If Bobb starts playing Prado against lefties, I may throw large objects at my TV screen when the Braves are on.
As Stu so correctly said, who the hell cares how happy Prado is? My goodness. We’re not running Dr. Melfi’s couch here. This is a frigging Baseball team. You play the best players. As Herm Edwards once said, “you PLAY to WIN the game”.
Prado, boo FREAKING hoo. You’re a reserve and you should be grateful we let you pinch hit. My god…who would have thought Bobby could be so damn sensitive. Please.
I remember mac and I both “losing it” a few years back when Lockhart started “grumbling” in the AJC about playing time. This was (I believe) during what was his final year with the Braves. Lockhart is the classic example of someone who should have been happy to just have a Major League job.
I believe when he started whining about P.T., that was the final straw for an organization who had put up with his below average play for about 5 (long) years.
Dan Kolbb may have tied him, but Keith Lockhart still ranks as my least favorite Atlanta Brave of all time. Andres Thomas was Derek Jeter next to that oaf.
Adam–here’s ops for nl second baseman:
Utley .996
KJ .892
Kent .856
All others are below .815
Link:
http://baseball.espn.go.com/mlb/stats/batting?split=0&league=nl&season=2007&seasonType=2&sort=OPS&type=reg&ageMin=17&ageMax=51&state=0&college=0&country=0&hand=a&pos=2b
Adam,
Just realized you wanted ml not just nl. Link is below–KJ is second in ml. Three al players–Roberts, Cano, and Palonco–are between KJ and Kent.
http://baseball.espn.go.com/mlb/stats/batting?sort=OPS&split=0&league=mlb&season=2007&seasonType=2&type=reg&ageMin=17&ageMax=51&minpa=0&hand=a&pos=2b
Bobby periodically throws a start to his bench guys. That it came against someone Prado rakes is a GOOD thing, not a bad thing.
I don’t think this will turn into a platoon, and if it does, that’s a very BAD thing.
Yep clearly platoon material
man sarcasm just does not read well
Lockhart complained about playing time? You got to be shitting me…now that’s ludicrous. No speed, no bat…American Legion at best.
Andres Thomas…wow that brings back horrid memories.
Match-ups:
Smoltz vs. Scott Atchison, he has a 1.17 era, but the Braves should win
Hudson vs. Russ Ortiz…c’mon Braves, seriously.
James vs. Tim Lincecum, the rookie got pounded last start, maybe he has hit the wall.
Carlyle vs. Brandon Webb. Hmmm let’s just say we need to sweep the Giants.
@ 83 Where can you find which drafted players have signed?
I’m headed down to the Ted for Saturday’s game against Arizona. Anyone know the pitching match-up? I suppose I’ll miss Smoltz by one day and get Buddy Carlyle, but who will he pitch against?
Yes, Lockhart grumbled to the AJC. After putting up with his crappy play for 5 years, that was possibly the most galling thing I have seen from a Braves player, ever.
The fact that the Braves gave him paychecks for 5 years (he should have been paying them) should have been enough.
Tony, is Webb really going on 5 days’ rest instead of Thursday?
@95
Ninja Posted!
Parish, here is a link to the Braves signings.
http://atlanta.braves.mlb.com/team/draft.jsp?c_id=atl
Parish,
According to the D-back website we will get Webb on Friday and probably Kim on Sunday. We will miss Livan and Doug Davis. Don’t know who their #2 is…
Seat Painter…
Looks like you will either get Smoltz or Cormier…Carlyle is going Friday. I doubt if they bring Smoltz on 3days rest.
Is there anyway we can find someone in the Phoenix area to go Tonya Harding on Brandon Webb? I mean, I like the guy, he’s a great pitcher, but he’s on fire right now.
If Lockhart wants to be “useful” to the Braves organization…
(I am JUST KIDDING…OK.)
http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/news?slug=jc-vick081207&prov=yhoo&type=lgns
Now this is just desserts. It’s good to know the bad human beings in sports DO have to pay the consequences for their actions.
Buh bye, Vick.
Alex R.,
I understand. If Cox has a heart he will sit AJ against Webb. Who wants to witness that disaster.
Damn Alex, you didn’t mention that Webb has thrown back to back SHUTOUTS!! Hell the Braves don’t even have a complete game this year…
While we went .500 on this road trip, we did gain a game in our division and we’re still only 1.5 out in the wild card. I’m not saying it’s not frustrating, but even in the games we lost this trip, we played far better than we had been playing (possible exception: last night). The offense has been far more consistent. Let’s see how we carry this over against the Giants.
I’m starting to become convinced that Cox is on a mission to have the first team in history to not have a complete game BTW. There have been several games where he took the starter out for absolutely no reason whatsoever and had he left him in, we would’ve had a complete game for sure.
It’s also taking a toll on an already-mediocre bullpen…
That’s the thing, though. It wasn’t mediocre until we decided that our maximum pitch count for our starting pitchers was 85.
When 60% of your starters are mediocre, it’s very difficult to manager a bullpen. I’ve been on Cox all year for it, but I can kind of see how hard it is–he has to think a few days ahead, and your choices are limited when Chuck James et al is pitching tomorrow and you KNOW he’s going 5.
As for Goodell, so far he’s done nothing but do what’s right for the NFL. Keep it up
Prado might platoon with KJ until Edgar comes back, which is about 1 more week and then he’ll get sent down until the rosters expand. We know its going to happen and we have the right to get pissed about it.
btw, Webb has thrown 33 consecutive innings with no earned runs. Ummmm, we need to sweep the ageless Giants
Well, when Bobby tried to let Hudson get complete games twice, it backfired big time. These guys don’t have the ability to get through 9. Frankly, if it’s a blowout, it shouldn’t be a problem for the bullpen to pitch an inning or two.
Nick,
the problem is that, so far, there has been little carryover. the Braves have yet to put a long stretch of good ball together–and, frankly, playing but not winning isn’t going to get it done now. If they are serious, they have to start winning. Arizona has won 17 out of 21; the Braves used to be able to do things like that.
Friday’s game will be so boring…ground ball after ground ball. Dead ant after dead ant. We really miss Edgar against a pitcher like Webb.
BTW, Webb actually has 33 scoreless innings going, truly remarkable in this day. So maybe it’s time for him to get pounded.
Marc,
love the half glass full attitude, yes, Webb is due to get pounded.
Right, but my point is that we have been playing better since making the moves and haven’t gone back into a big lull yet. If we play like we did in that road trip on this home stand, we’ll have a very successful one.
But again, as many of us have now said, we HAVE TO SWEEP THE GIANTS.
This is funny – I have Webb in a fantasy league I am in, and I have had him on the bench the last two starts. I’m definitely putting him in against ATL – that should guarantee his recent good work comes to an end 🙂
whats sad is we are the type of a team that can beat up on some really good pitchers (Peavy, Carpenter, Pedro), but we truly have some trouble against teams 4-5th starters…its amazing
CSG,
We don’t have that killer instinct…or we are not as good as “we” think we are. It’s one or the other…I think it is the former.
What good pitchers have we “beaten up” this year? My impression is that we beat up lousy pitching and struggle against any kind of decent pitching, especially if it’s left-handed.
Bobby doesnt like the call from last night, he said that rollins missed the bag on 1 in the 4th. He also calls Howards HR a “joke”
http://atlanta.braves.mlb.com/news/gameday_recap.jsp?ymd=20070812&content_id=2145726&vkey=recap&fext=.jsp&c_id=atl
tony,
I think that’s absolutely correct. Its just like these games in Philly, we get the lead and we think its enough. We never try building onto the lead and then it comes back to haunt us
One problem I see is not working counts as the game goes along. They start out with the intent to work the count, and usually do so fairly well the first time through, but then they go back to swinging at everything that comes to the plate, except for a few cases, like Chipper, Tex, KJ, and McCann.
From the AJC Website:
Your View
If you were the Braves’ GM and had to choose between Andruw Jones and Mark Teixeira, who would you re-sign?
——————————————————————————–
Andruw Jones 9.63% 254
Mark Teixeira 90.37% 2384
-Wow, not all that surprising. But still 90-10 in favor of Teix.
gotta sweep the giants. i usually don’t throw out the must wins, but the giants are terrible, playing at home, smoltz and hudson, gotta sweep the giants.
We’ve seen ten years of Andruw’s inconsistency, and two weeks of Teix, not hard to see how that vote was going to shake out.
From CSG’s link: “Their bullpen did a great job and Moyer kept us off balance,” Francoeur said. “But it comes back to we’ve got to get key hits and I think I’ve reiterated that at this ballpark, any ball can go out of the ballpark.”
I guess not ANY ball since Frenchy didn’t hit one.
Note: This is not intended to fire up the pro/anti Francoueur wars. I’m just picking on his remark because the ballpark is the same for both teams. The Braves should be just as able as the Phillies to benefit from cheapo homers, but, at least last night, they did not.
In his chat earlier today, Buster Olney listed Francoeur as a contender for the NL MVP.
Wow. I knew those throws last night would probably get Francoeur a Gold Glove, but I had no idea it would get him this kind of attention.
make that Francoeur–maybe I should stick with Frenchy to avoid spelling errors
Frenchy for mvp–that’s nuts. (Again, no intent to stir the pot.) I’d say he’s no better than the 5th most valuable Brave (behind–in no particular order–Smoltz, Hudson, Renteria, and Chipper).
Francoeur MVP? That’s ridiculous. Chipper I could see.
Expanding on that, I’m actually a fan of Jeff’s and have been very pleased by his progress at the plate this year, but he’s not even MVP on his own team (would probably finish 5th behind Chipper, Edgar, Smoltz, and Hudson). Any voter who gives him an MVP vote is dumb.
You could even argue that Jeff is behind KJ as well for team MVP.
Jeff has put together a nice second half. Whether he deserves to be mentioned in NL MVP talk, i don’t think so, but it’s nice to see some Braves getting love from the media.
I voted, without hesitation, for Tex in the AJC poll.
I think Jeff has done an overall great job this year for the Braves. He’s still young, has clearly matured a lot and has contributed well to this team.
But an MVP this year? Not a chance. But I think he’s showing me signs he will be in the MVP race in some future years, yes.
Agreed. I suspect Buster just wanted to have something unique to say. No legit case can be made for Smurph.
If he gets back to 30 homers consistently, with the improved plate discipline and RBI production, but at his current homerrun pace he’s not an MVP candidate.
MVP talk for Francouer? That’s someone who hasn’t watched the Braves the whole year. Damn Buster, what is he smoking. However, compared to last year, I guess it does seem like a MVP type season for Francouer. Also compared to AJ, he looks like an MVP.
Compared to AJ this year, Martin Prado looks like an MVP…
Francouer is having a great year. Ryan Howard is the MVP though.
When it comes to the MVP award, I am one of those who is strongly against a pitcher ever winning. To me, they have their award, Cy Young.
As for the MVP, for a while I felt it was Prince Fielder (and a case could have been made for the obnoxious Alfonso Soriano) but Howard looks like the easy choice now.
matt holiday is having a great year too.
Hate,
Yeah, it’s easy to forget about him, but you’re absolutely right. He definitely deserves to be discussed.
http://photos-b.ak.facebook.com/photos-ak-sctm/v118/186/53/7014933/n7014933_35111901_2070.jpg
Hooray for this picture of Auburn kickoff specialist Tristan Davis’ toe. The speedster’s out 6-8 weeks.
Auburn players dropping like flies. I’m concerned.
I think you could replace “dropping like flies” with any combination of words, really, and the “Auburn players…I’m concerned” line would always be applicable.
Treekiling bastards.
a number of posts back there was a question of why the brewers moved to the NL and if it was to kindle a rivalry with the cubs. i’m sure that was part of the motives… but i’m also pretty sure that the royals were given first choice to see if they wanted to switch and they declined. i’d have to check on that though.
I think we’d all rather see the Royals 6 times a year.
A drunk driver hit the tree and screwed it up.
I used to live next to Toomer’s Corner, really, as a little kid.
As the t-shirts say, V is for Victory (and Vandalism)
http://www.printfection.com/theauburner/V-is-for-Victory/_s_25632
Just to stir something up :), why should the most valuable player be punished because his position already has a prestigious award? In a purely theoretical situation, if the most valuable player happens to be a pitcher (that must be one awesome freaking pitcher; I can’t think of anyone that would fit that bill), I think he should be eligible for the MVP. With that said, it’s kind of a theoretical argument because I can’t think of anyone that is that good right now.
Francouer for MVP? You gotta be kidding me. He’s been great this year, but I don’t think so. One thing about all of the MVP candidates is that none of them play their position (also higher up on the defensive spectrum) like Francouer does. How much do you consider defense into the MVP equation? That’s my question in regards to that. If Frenchy was hitting .300 with 30 HRs with Gold Glove defense and 20 assists (which is the amount of assists I believe he’s on pace for), then is that more valuable than a poor-fielding first baseman hitting .320 with 45 HRs? Once again, I don’t think Frenchy is the MVP, but I just like to stir things up. 😉
Oh, and another question: should a reliever ever win the Cy Young? Kinda along the same lines…
http://www.ajc.com/sports/content/shared-gen/ap/National/Katrina_Luxury_Condos.html
Completely off-topic, but because Mac started it:
Relief money from Katrina aid is going towards Tuscaloosa gameday condos!! Wow, the U of A is one easy place to dislike.
It’s not a UA project, of course. My thoughts on Richard Shelby, who seems primarily responsible for the tax breaks being applied to Tuscaloosa, are available at Thomason Tracts. $18 million for parking decks? Not that Auburn and UAB haven’t fed at the trough too.
Disgraceful.
Not to get off the way off the subject but, the owner of the Seattle Supersonics wants to move the team to Oklahoma City. Having been to both cites, if I am a Seattle Supersonic I want to be traded YESTERDAY.
Although I didn’t see as many homeless people in OKC.
The concept of a major professional sports franchise in OKC is… mindboggling. You’d be better off putting a team in Richmond. It’s about the same size as the Greenville or Birmingham metro areas, only less glamorous. Meanwhile, a city like Cincinnati (nearly twice the size with a long hoops tradition) has no chance.
I have an idea of what the owner is thinking. If you move to OKC, you will be the only thing happening in town, so you will more than likely sellout every game. And I am pretty sure the city will give him a sweetheart deal to move the team there. It’s all about money as usual. Damn what’s the nearest major city to OKC?
As far as Cincinnati goes, even though it is in Ohio, NBA people think it’s too close to Kentucky and University of Kentucky to be a viable NBA town. In other words, Cincy is a college b-ball town.
I am a Sonics fan, located in the South, though I used to live in Washington. I don’t know what to think of the move. I like my Supes in Seattle, though any televised home games will be on at a more reasonable hour. But they will still be playing a majority of their games in the Western time zones.
I am excited about Presti, he seems to know what he is doing, and of course, Durant.
is it possible to send Hampton for Contreras? Would you even want too? Would Hampton approve it, or does it matter?
http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/
I think I would rather have one more injured year of Hampton at $15 mil, than two years of Contreras at 10-11 mil a piece
In my lifetime I would love for this issue in general to vanish…
http://www.time.com/time/health/article/0,8599,1652338,00.html
I thought you can’t trade injured players which is why you often to see the proverbial “player to be named later” who ends up being the injured player once he recovers from the injury.
I don’t think Chicago would even take Hampton. I really think Hampton will do nothing again next year, and one year of sunk cost is one year of sunk cost. Even if he has a decent year, I can’t imagine anyone taking a $15M gamble on a, what, 34 year old pitcher whose shoulder is about as durable as ball of cotton.
I think that’s true, Ron.
Speaking of PTBNLs, have we gotten anything for the Langy trade from Oakland?
I kind of like Olney, relatively speaking anyway, but this does seem to be one of those cases where he says something wild just to make a splash. But at least he didn’t call Cliff Lee the best lefthander in baseball: http://www.firejoemorgan.com/2006/04/i-dont-know-why-but-i-thought-they.html
As per the Sonics, I’m confused about the problem there. Is there just not fan support? I was under the impression that Seattle, for all its laid-backedness and passive aggression, is a pretty good sports town. And now that they have Durant, they’ll probably draw some more interest… but perhaps this isn’t about that. Whatever the case, I can’t imagine there being a bigger juxtaposition between cities I like and hate than between Seattle and Oklahoma City. Hey, wasn’t Vegas on the table too? Or did the NBA All-Star game kill that idea?
Kyle S,
In response to your post on Heyward, he actually signed for $170K over slot, as per Baseball America:
http://www.baseballamerica.com/blog/draft/?p=195
Adam M,
I like Olney ’cause he’s a Vandy boy. Almost worked for him the summer after my Junior year of college, actually.
The issue with the Sonics is the terrible lease on Key Arena. Even if the Sonics sell out every game they lose money on the lease. The tax payers and government officials have been reluctant (to say the least) to pony up the cash for a new staidum. Clay Bennett (new owner) won’t put up any of his money for the arena either. They have discussed moving the arena to a reservation, but most of their ideas are half-hearted.
Baseball umpires racist sounds as stupid as the story about racist NBA referees. Will the media please stop printing this junk?
Again, Skip Bayless is a “Vandy Boy” too…
I don’t like him. Never would have considered working for him.
I should say I like Olney and he’s a Vandy boy. It adds to it, doesn’t cause it.
new thread