Ron Mahay was drafted as an outfielder, by the Red Sox, in 1991, and actually made the majors as an outfielder in 1995, briefly, going 4-20, with two doubles and a homer. Mahay was apparently one of the scabs “replacement players” in spring training that year, and may have been promoted because of that; he really hadn’t hit enough in the minors to make the Show. His career minor league hitting line (which includes some work as a pitcher) is only .250/.327/.345.
Anyway, in 1996 he converted to the mound, and was in the majors “for good” a year later. In actuality, he’s had few years when he hasn’t been demoted to the minors, and in fact has probably spent more time there than in the bigs. After a couple of decent years with the Sox, he was waived for some reason in spring of 1999 and picked up by the A’s. He had a lot of trouble in 2000 and was sold to the Marlins, and didn’t pitch well there either.
He signed with the Padres as a free agent in 2001, but never pitched for the big club, but had a good stretch run with the Cubs that year. He was terrible in 2002 and they released him late in the season. He’s spent the last five seasons with the Rangers, which have probably been the best stretch of his career, though he had a bad year in 2005.
Hasn’t shown a big left-right split in his career, and has pitched better against righthanders than lefties this season. To be fair, he’s probably mostly faced really good lefties, since his usage pattern (44 percent of PA against lefties) shows that he has been used to some degree as a specialist… Looking at the scouting report: throws three pitches, fastball-slider-change, with the majority of pitches the fastball. Naturally, he throws the slider mostly to lefties and the change mostly to righties.
Ron Mahay Statistics – Baseball-Reference.com
I’m gonna let this serve as the game thread for tonight’s game.
Mahay should be popular in the South, having been a “scab.” Union busting is very popular.(Although it’s hard to take seriously the image of baseball players today as oppressed laborers.)
Didn’t know Mahay was a scab. That reminds me, didn’t Terry Blocker try to make the replacement Braves as a pitcher? Seems like I remember something like that.
Guess that means he can’t joing the players’ union, huh? Or have they finally done away with that BS?
I don’t think any of them will ever be invited to join. Leaving aside any personal opinion about unions (I’m sure others will fill that gap), why would a group invite someone to join who undermined what they considered to be their purpose?
Sansho1,
I understand your point, but in a few years they will all be out of the league and it will be a moot point.
That’s true. And it’s not as though union membership is mandatory, anyway.
Does anybody not join, though? Other than replacement players?
Good question — I don’t know. That stuff doesn’t get reported much. I think pretty much everyone joins, regardless of political beliefs, because of the grievance system that’s in place. With as much money on the line as these guys make, it’s nice to have a cadre of attorneys at your disposal in case you’ve got a problem with mgmt.
Bonds isn’t in it… I believe, or maybe he just has a specific deal regarding endorsements.
I think you don’t get fees from the licensing rights to cards and paraphenalia if you don’t belong to the union. So, there’s a lot of incentive to join. I sympathize strongly with what the union originally did for the players that were royally screwed in the sixties. (And you how the old football players continue to get screwed because of the NFLPA being in bed with the league.) But, time has passed and none of these current players have suffered. Let the replacement players in; they need the money a hell of a lot more than the A-Rods of the world (who wasn’t even in the majors during the strike anyway).
Moog,
The comment about being white and hustling in St Louis…I don’t know. The two most populars players in recent memory happen to be Willie McGhee and The Wizard.
The thing about the Yankees, and the Braves were this way with Turner…they will do wateva it takes to win. If you are a player that’s all you can ask for…right?
Barry Bonds may not be in the union, because he’s not in video games, I don’t think. I remember in MVP Baseball 2005 he was a white, right-handed hitter named Jon Dowd. Of course, there could be other left fielders on the San Francisco Giants with 99 contact and power, 100 plate discipline and no defensive ability. I’ll have to check B-Ref…
Anyway, you can sometimes tell who’s not in the union by things like that. I seem to remember some former baseball players whose names were suspiciously altered on video games because they weren’t in the union. I haven’t played video games consistently (besides the NCAA Football series; those games are freakin’ sweet!) in about 3 years, so I don’t know who else is out of the union now.
Bonds is not in the MLBPA. I know this because ESPN wasn’t allowed to use his name in their fantasy game one year (2005?), and so he was listed as “San Francisco OF” instead. 😀
There is one thing to consider in terms of scabs in the union. It’s not really “over” when your playing days end because the union deals with player pensions and such. That’s not such a big deal these days what with multi-million dollar contracts, but it used to mean a hell of a lot when a washed up ballplayer had no other skill and little money to show for his career.
However, the player “scabs” are not likely players that would make a ton of money and thus could utilize the union pension protection. It is this as much as anything that keeps them out, I’d think.
Barry Bonds is an assh*le. There I said it.
Here’s an interesting question that I do not know the answer to – do players who turn into managers have to leave the union since they are now on the management/ownership side?
With that being said…could you imagine how combustible the Braves locker room would have been with Glavine, Justice, and Bonds. Almost happen.
An asshole who can hit the crap out of a ball.
I’ve imagined it many times, Tony. And want to cry each time.
Guess that means he can’t joing the players’ union, huh? Or have they finally done away with that BS?
“Because he is not a member of the Major League Baseball Players Association, Mahay’s name was changed to Ed Brady in the video game MLB 07: The Show and Neale Genereaux in MVP Baseball 2005.”
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ron_Mahay
This guy is the opposite of the old union boy who failed to win #300 last night.
No, he’s not. They’re both left-handed.
I believe that nonunion players do get pension money, as that isn’t administered by the union. The money they don’t get is the licensing fees.
A few of the scabs did turn out to be legitimate major leaguers. Rick Reed was the best pitcher. Kevin Millar, I guess, the best hitter. Kerry Ligtenberg was one. A few others: Damian Miller, Chris Truby, Shane Spencer, Brendan Donnelly, Frank Menechino, Matt Herges.
(Information from here, though they’re mixing players from different eras.)
FWIW I’m actually rooting for Glavine to get his 300th win. I know it’s the Mets, but they’re gonna win at least one game the rest of the year, might as well be that one. Plus, I don’t really hold this deep-seated animosity toward him. Julio Franco left for the exact same reason and everyone still loves him. I don’t know, I guess I just don’t get it. I sure hope that by the time he gets inducted to the Hall of Fame as a Brave, people have dropped this whole thing.
In retrospect, I blame Sosa and McGwire. They cheated their way to the records book…and Bonds being the superior player was sort of left in the shadows. And everyone knows Sosa and McGwire were juicing. Hell didn’t Sosa get caught with a corked bat? So he is an habitual cheater and one of the worse teammates in all of baseball. So Bonds said let me try some of that and let’s see what happens…well 73 HRS and bye-bye to Hammering Hank’s record is what happen.
APBA for Windows is the same way. The non-union guys all have fake names.
For example, Kerry Ligtenberg was “Lee Grove,” Corey Lidle was “Fuller Starr” & Shane Spencer was “Jimmy Ladd.”
I guess Brendan Donnelly would be the closer if the All-Scab team, as it were.
I see on the Mets’ network that Glavine is now starring in a union television advertisement, telling me to pay an extra $100 to have a union member fix my light switch.
I once had to work in a NYC union for a couple of years. I had to pay about $1000 a year to make sure there was someone to ensure that my less competent coworkers didn’t get fired. The union also made sure that compensation was linked mostly to seniority rather than performance. The MLB union isn’t very similar.
Mac, I’m pretty sure pensions are part of the CBA. Not sure how it effects who gets what, however. So you may be right.
Dayn Perry is an idiot. His exact words:
“there were no blockbuster deals”
Hey Dayn, were you disappointed Hank Aaron wasn’t traded for Babe Ruth?
I don’t like that guy…
In regards to Barry and the MLBPA – he is in it, he has just distanced himself from their blanket licensing agreements.
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=1661883
Yeah, I have to say I don’t get all the Glavine-hate for his 300th win. Come on, this guy was Mr. Brave and stood on the hill for the only WS win the Atlanta team owns. If he played for any other team than one from NY, I imagine Braves fans would be all for it.
He certainly deserves it. And that 300th win will ensure another Brave goes to the HoF.
I agree with Tony on this one. If it weren’t for them cheating, Bonds would have probably gotten more of his due and would be retired right now with about 600 HR’s looking forward to the Hall of Fame.
But you have to wonder, without Sosa/McGwire and all of the steroids press, (no such thing as bad publicity) how does baseball rebound from the strike and how popular is it today?
The guy who runs the APBA league Cary and I are in and Alex used to be has loads of fun changing the names every year.
Okay, here’s the All-Scab team.
C Damian Miller
1B Brian Daubach
2B Frank Menechino
3B Chris Truby
SS Lou Merloni
OF Shane Spencer
OF Kevin Millar
OF Billy McMillon
SP Rick Reed
SP Cory Lidle
RP Brendan Donnelly
RP Kerry Ligtenberg
Brad Komminsk was a scab. A lot of them were former major leaguers; I have a lot less sympathy for these guys than for the independent leaguers who make the list above.
Mac or anyone,
Please POST on the previous thread that there is a “new” thread up.
I was wondering why it had gotten so dead on the other one. Thanks.
And c’mon Tony, why should you care if Hank loses the record, he;s just a Brave after all…I am sure you have to be pulling for A-Rod to take it. Right?
Didn’t Oil Can Boyd reappear in Atlanta during that time?
Just a response to Tony firing up Alex R in the previous thread…
If I was talented enough to play Major League Baseball, why would I absolutely refuse to play for the Red Sox, Yankees, Cardinals, Cubs, or Dodgers? Those are storied franchises and anyone who has the opportunity to be remembered as a part of one of them should take it. As a FAN (noticed I capitalized fan because I think Alex was getting a little stuck on the fact that he is a fan and not making the hypothetical decision based on a major league players point of view) I would dream to play for the Braves. If the opportunity arose and it made sense for me and my family I would jump at it.
In Dayn Perry’s world, Major League Baseball consists of New York teams and everyone else is playing some sort of pointless game for nothing. It’s really kind of ridiculous.
He also probably spends most of his time thinking about his weekly snarky Funhouse column thing (which, I must admit, is pretty funny most of the time) and phones in his baseball columns much of the time.
And Tony,
Living in Cardinals country, I can confirm to you that Mcgee is a beloved Cardinal, so I can’t disagree there, but Ozzie isn’t as popular as one might think. His feud with current management (esp. LaRussa (imagine that)) has tainted his memory in the eyes of many a Cardinal fan.
Fringe fans still remember him as “the wizard” but many diehards don’t have that same memory.
And I’m really not trying to paint anyone a racist, or make generalized statements for entire fan bases, but there is an extreme STL tendency towards “throwback” players. For example, Juan Encarnacion has, more or less, done exactly what they brought him in to do and has been what management expected. Among the majority of fans, guys like Eckstein are especially beloved because it is a very, very conservative midwestern fanbase. To ignore that is silly.
Among the majority of fans, guys like Eckstein are especially beloved because it is a very, very conservative midwestern fanbase.
I’m not sure that’s really a midwestern thing. The most beloved Angels around here (LA area) during their championship year were “hustlers” Eckstein and Erstad. Garret Anderson has always be knocked for being lazy in the field and on the bases, make of that what you will.
Who knew Tony would get more defense from Braves Journal saying he would dream of playing for the Yankees or Sawx over the Braves, rathern than his defense of Yunel Escobar.
This site at times continues to bewilder me.
And YES, I am a Braves fan so I would rather play for the Braves.
I honestly don’t give a RAT’S ASS about the Yankees or Red Sox history. I am a Braves fan. Rick Mahler means more to me than Mickey Mantle.
This is not to say Mantle wasn’t a great player by a 1000%, it just means less to me because I don’t give a sh– about the Yankees.
And you keep acting like I am some dumb fan. Fine. Is Jake Peavy a dumb fan for saying he would love to play for the Braves because hew grew up rooting for our team in North Carolina? Or Willie Harris? Or Tim Hudson?
Yes, players want to make the best contract, the most $. No one disputes this. (though I say again, how many millions can you make until your satisfied…I wouldn’t even know what to do with all the $ these guys hold out for). If the Yanks offer Peavy far more $ in the future, he might sign there.
But a lot of these guys are fans of certain teams growing up and actually want to play for certain teams. Mark Mulder grew up a Cardinals fan and was happy to be dealt to St. Louis.
But not every person alive, TONY, wants to playing for effing New York or Boston. Take that sh– and pedal it elsewhere. Curt Schilling has a Blog–post that there, I am sure he’d love it.
So whether I am just a Braves fan or if I was an athlete, I would want to play for the Braves. End of story. Period.
Alex,
Truthfully, I am not a Hank Aaron fan. Obviously I wasn’t born when he played and even if I were I probably would not have been a fan…looking back he was consistently good, nothing spectacular. I’m pretty sure I would have been a Willie Mays, Roberto Clemente or Mickey Mantle guy. (smoke coming from Alex’s ears). I’m more of Braves fans from Dale Murphy to current.
Moog,
St Louis is the Midwest, so I’m pretty sure there is some legitmacy to your statements.
Moog-
If Ozzie is feuding with LaRussa, that makes Ozzie a hero in my book. LaRussa, as most of us agree, is a giant jackass.
Tony’s gonna get Mac angry at him now, too…heh.
Tony,
I’m 32 years old and I started with the Murphy era. I didn’t grow up rooting for Hank Aaron because was already done as a player by the time I became interested in Baseball, at age 5 in 1980.
But I am a BRAVES FAN.
You are being so effing infuriating today. Honestly, I wish you just join a Cardinal or a Red Sox blog. I really think you’re just trying to offend me at this point and not sure why.
Tony, saying that Hank Aaron was “consistantly good, nothing spectacular” is ludicrous enough as to require you to redefine your meaning of the word “spectacular.”
Seriously.
I am seriously excited watching Tex tonight. Living in the Central European time zone, I will get no sleep tonight… Well worth it! 🙂
Yeah, Hank Aaron is probably the best player who ever lived. I would accept Babe Ruth on a “far better than anyone else in his era” basis. If you’re judging it by that, it’s pretty obviously Babe Ruth. But if you’re judging it by numbers, Hank Aaron is the best baseball player in history, and I really don’t see how it’s even close. Willie Mays was Hank Aaron with lesser numbers and more defense. I don’t really understand where all this Willie Mays is the greatest player ever bar none stuff came from.
Tony,
That may be the dumbest thing I have ever heard. Calling Hank Aaron “consistent” is one of the most backhanded compliments you can give someone. Hank Aaron was astonishing. There is a reason he owns the RBI, HR, extra base hits record, and many other records in a game that has been played for over a century. He is one of a handful of great players.
And Willie Mays is still one of the greatest players who ever lived BTW. Not trying to denigrate him, but Aaron was better.
Tony has taken the unpopular stance in every argument since he started posting on this board. Its nothing new, he’s just stirring the pot.
Alex R.,
If you are at all interested in seeing how childish both LaRussa and OZzie are, check it out:
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=2453573
I dislike LaRussa as much as anyone else around here, I think he’s a pompous ass. But, Ozzie is still upset because of being benched over a decade ago.
And Robert,
I’ll agree with you there, it’s probably not just a midwestern thing, that’s me stereotyping it, but I know certain fanbases and regions buy into hustle players more than others.
Yea…I think you might have me on that one Alex R. He was a great ballplayer, but for some reason I don’t put him in the same league with Clemente, Mays and Mantle. Enough about that…
I just pray that Tex doesn’t press…stay cool like McGriff did
Moog-
You maybe right, but Ozzie has not tried to say nasty public statements about Bobby Cox–LaRussa does so regularly. Count me on the Ozzie team.
Tony = NY METS
Mac,
Here’s the list of APBA fake names:
http://www.apba.net/zip/fakenames.htm
Question for you, just for the hell of it: During the Braves ’91-’05 run, which APBA Braves team do you think was the best? (Remember, this is “APBA World,” not real world.)
My vote: ’93 or ’98.
So whether I am just a Braves fan or if I was an athlete, I would want to play for the Braves. End of story. Period.
Everyone values different things. I wouldn’t want to play for the Yanks or Sox because I would want to live (even part time) in those towns or be subjected to those fans. The Braves would be fine, but if offered similar contracts with the Braves and Padres I would probably choose the Pads. San Diego is just a tremendous place to live and work.
the Southeast calling the Midwest traditionalists = funny.
Obviously that should read “wouldn’t want to live…”
Well, ummm, Tony, you’d be WRONG.
Anyone who doesn’t respect Aaron as one of the greatest players of all time and easily in the same class as the guys you mentioned,really (let me say it again for a different reason) doesn’t belong on this board.
And Tony, there’s a difference between arrogance and stupidity or just being plain obnoxious for the sake of being obnoxious.
Well, the fact that LaRussa apparently tried to patch it up by offering him a spring training instructor position does make Ozzie looke pretty bad for basically spitting in his face.
But then, LaRussa did bench him for Royce freaking Clayton.
Must be Kidding me Robert
Robert,
San Diego is a great city to live in, but my problem is Tony’s argument was because he’s so enamored with those franchises.
Plus, he’s so obviously going out of his way to pick a fight with everyone today.
This isn’t an issue over city–it’s an issue of…are you a Braves fan or a fan of the Yankees or Sawx?
Tony,
By not acknowledging Hank’s greatness, you are turning this into “Who’s Now?” If you look just at baseball ability, and not flashiness or ‘mythicalness’ Hank can stack up against anyone.
Plus, Ozzie’s is a cool bar/restaurant to go to if you are in the StL.
Ah…I’ve figured it out. Tony’s works for ESPN but grew up rooting for the Braves. This has made him very conflicted, heh.
Alex R, I have grown up a Braves Fan. I am 26 and one of my best memories is when my parents came and woke me up out of bed to watch the famous Sid Bream slide (this was afterall a school night 🙂 ). With that said, if I was able to live the dream, then the Braves would be my 1st and 2nd choice. The thing is that I’m not gonna give up a major league career because I despised friggin Steinbrenner as a kid. I’d still be proud to play for any team in the majors even if they were the God forsaken Red Sox (GASP).
Josh,
I think Alex was saying if it was his choice, he would pick the Braves over those franchises for less money.
Must be Kidding me Robert
Perhaps I am, but I’m not exactly sure what you are objecting to.
“I’m actually rooting for Glavine to get his 300th win.”
I’m rooting for the Mets to lose as much as possible. I’m happier that the Braves are now 3.5 games back than I would be if they were still 4.5 games back and Glavine had win #300.
Tony,
That’s a pretty ridiculous statement about Hank Aaron. I think you are just saying that to infuriate Alex (and, yes, you do try to be provocative). Aaron is certainly one of the top 10-12 (if not higher) players in baseball history. If that’s not spectacularly good, you have some pretty high standards. Roberto Clemente couldn’t carry Aaron’s jockstrap IMO and neither could Dale Murphy.
Alex,
Your problem is you are a Braves fan and not a baseball fan. A lot of us love and respect the history of baseball aside from that part that relates to the Braves (and the Braves weren’t one of the elite franchises until 1991). I’m not knocking you; you have every right to feel that way. But it’s unfair for you to assume that, because we are Braves fans, we should ignore everything else that has ever happened in baseball history. Mickey Mantle was more than just a great baseball player, he was a cultural icon and, in many ways, a symbol of American life. If you don’t appreciate that, that’s your business, but please don’t attack those that think baseball is more than just the Atlanta Braves.
As far as players wanting to play for certain teams, I’m sure most of them did have favorite teams as kids. But people grow up. Players have little control over who originally drafts them and I don’t think too many players make their decisions based on the desire to play for a particular team. For one thing, their families may not want to live in that city.
Since we’re still going down this road, I’m guessing that my first choice would be to stay with the team that I came up in, since I would know everybody in that organization and don’t really like to move a lot. But if I ever had to leave and had a chance to pick the team I was going to, it would be the Braves.
Although since I’m from and live in Atlanta, I would probaby be drafted by the Braves anyway, so it would be a moot point. 🙂
Dan,
If the Mets do have to win a game I hope it does occur when Glavine is pithcing, and he gets the win. That being said I am a Braves fan and as much as I like Glavine I hope the Mets lose every game from here on out. I know I dream big!
JoshQ-
I have zero problem with what you’re saying. This is completely different than Tony.
If I couldn’t play for the Braves, and I had Major League ability, and the Red Sox gave me a great contract–GREAT. I would play for the Sawx, work my tail off, and give that franchise my best efforts.
But like me, you’re IDEAL would be to play for the team we both grew up rooting for–the Braves.
I think anyone on this board who has the ability to play Major League Baseball, would play anywhere if that’s the contract they were offered.
So, you’re not saying anything wrong at all–unlike Tony.
No I hope Glavine gets #300 also, but I hope thats after they are 5 or 6 games behind us in late Sept and we either won that day or didnt play
Anyone got pics Of Tex in the Braves Uniform?? why didn’t Matt give up his number for a paid vacation or something
I would probably play for the Rockies, didn’t Mike Hampton say they have a great school system?
I don’t understand if you’re a Braves FAn why would you want to play for any other team if you have the choice i.e
Robert,
I don’t get it either. If you are a true Braves fan and had the option to play in either San Diego or Atlanta, all things being equal, you’d play in San Diego because of the climate?
I can understand if it were because of a significant amount of money or a playing time issue, but being from atlanta and growing up a braves fan, I couldn’t imagine a greater thrill than suiting up in my favorite teams colors everyday.
I just got tickets to watch the Braves and Ari. on the 18th….Im pumped
#76. Denver is world reknown for its tremendous schools. LOL!
Alrighty, I think I just couldn’t see through your Emotion Alex. When you get fired up, I have to read slowly. 🙂
BTW, Why is Hank Aaron so under appreciated by many people? I would contend that if he had played his entire career with the Yankees, then no one would contend how great he was. Maybe I’m just stating the obvious.
“Anyone got pics Of Tex in the Braves Uniform??”
http://img.coxnewsweb.com/C/06/99/56/image_5656996.jpg
I would imagine Colorado’s schools are better than New York’s schools, but I don’t really know for sure.
Marc,
I respect the game of Baseball a lot–if I didn’t, I wouldn’t even have an interest in the Braves. Abner Doubleday knew what he was doing when he created the game (even if the DH and Bud Selig and others have tried to ruin it).
And as I stated to Josh, I would play for any team that wanted to give me a contract. Of course…Royals, Twins, Yankees, Padres–doesn’t matter. Any team that likes me enough to want me to play Baseball for them, I would give them 110%–we all should.
And sure, if I played for the Yankees, of course I would respect their history even more but even as a Braves fan, I am happy to acknowledge what all their players have done historically.
In fact, my Grandfather, it turns out (he passed in 1993) was actually a lifelong Yankees fan. (which contradicted my mother and her older brother growing up Brooklyn Dodgers fan…my mom mainly because she was madly in love w/ Sandy Koufax).
But I am a Braves fan first, 2nd and 3rd. No team comes close. No team ever could replace how I feel about this franchise. When someone like Tony comes in here and says the things he says, I find it incredibly insulting that he calls himself a Braves fan.
Wicked Stuff!! Thanks Dan
csg – #74
Yes…that’s exactly how I feel. Or I hope he just gets it Sunday against the Cubs, gets it out of the way, and loses every game after that.
One or the other.
Being a fan has nothing to do with who you might want to play for. Would you want to play for the laughing stock Braves of the 70s with the sixteen game losing streaks and Ted Turner managing the team? Would you want to play for the Braves if the manager was a total asshole? There are lots of reasons you might not want to play for your favorite team.
Well I was born and raised in Hartford, CT, but I hate the Red Sox. My favorite players that I actually saw play are Bob Horner, Ryne Sandberg, Griffey, Jr, Smoltz, Maddux and the Baby Bull Manny Ramirez.
I admire and respect Hank Aaron, especially what he went through…but I wouldn’t actually be jumping up and down to see him play like I would with Mays, Clemente or Mantle. No disrespect to Mr. Aaron at all. By the way, wasn’t Clemente career cut short?
I’m thinking it doesn’t matter where you play, you have the money to send you’re kids to the private school of your choice. I highly doubt ARod’s kids will go to Coney Island High.
Players can’t think about just themselves now. If you’re wife and kids had a choice of whether to live in Atlanta or San Diego, where do you think they’d choose?
If the wife chooses? San Diego. 😉
Well the wife i would choose would pick Atlanta soo
Josh–yes. In fact, even though I am a die hard Georgia fan, I would send my kids to ANY college (yes…even Florida) IF they got a full scholarship.
Considering how expensive college is (and how expensive it will be when my unborn child is ready to go in 18 years) since I don’t earn Baseball player type $, I will gladly send my kids to any school if they got a full ride to go there.
But I would still be rooting for my Dawgs on Saturdays.
Tony, Clemente was 38 when he died. He was a hell of a ballplayer and cocky as you know what, but he could back it up.
A quick glance at his stats,
http://www.baseball-reference.com/c/clemero01.shtml
would show you that his legend grows because he was one of the first great Latin players and died in an unfortunate accident, not because he was as good as Hank Aaron.
And I wouldn’t mind Glavine getting his 300th win, then being pulled out late in the rest of his starts, and the game scoreless. Then the Mets’ pen can lose it.
I can understand if it were because of a significant amount of money or a playing time issue, but being from atlanta and growing up a braves fan, I couldn’t imagine a greater thrill than suiting up in my favorite teams colors everyday.
Now I see. I’m not from Atlanta, so maybe that’s the difference. I’ve been there many times though, and with the heat, sprawl, traffic and congestion it kind reminds of Orange County and not in a good way. Not trying to trash Atlanta, most big towns are like this now.
Playing for the Braves would be great, but in this perfect world we are talking about getting paid a major league salary and living in San Diego sounds pretty damn good.
It is not even worth arguing Clemente vs. Aaron. If you cannot appreciate who was the greater player you are devoid of any understanding of baseball.
Personally, I’ve been so horrible in my attempts to play baseball over the years, it’s hard to even imagine a scenario in which I’d have such a choice. But if I had it, it would definitely be for my home town team.
That said, I easily see the argument for wanting to play for a “storied” franchise. Fact is, the question is moot. The ball player goes where the money is most of the time. It’s those few that don’t follow the money that I love to root for. One of the reasons Maddux was a great favorite of mine – well that and he was the best pitcher in the past 20 years (sorry Clemens.)
Robert,
Are you even a Braves fan? How goes the illegal aliens crossing your backyard in San Diego?
I knew that Alien talk was coming sooner or later
No offense meant. I think San Diego is a beautiful city. I was just poking fun.
Are you even a Braves fan? How goes the illegal aliens crossing your backyard in San Diego?
You’ve been watching too much Fox News.
Clemente died right after he got his 3000th hit. He had a pretty full playing career by the time his plane went down.
He was a great player, had an unbelievable arm, but not on the same level of Aaron, Mays, or Mantle.
And speaking of Aaron, I was surprised the other day when making the very same argument that Aaron was among the all time greats to find that his lifetime OPS was only #39 all time at .929 Given how high he ranks in so many offensive categories, I would have thought that a much higher number.
Plus, my lawn doesn’t exactly cut itself.
JoshQ,
I honestly think it was because he was a) from a smaller market, b) didn’t win a ton of titles, and c)didn’t really have a stretch of time where his numbers were unbelievable; they were just always really, really great.
I kind of feel the same way about Stan Musial.
JoshQ,
I went to “Coney Island High”—it was the venue where I last saw The Ramones, right before they retired.
I know Kenny… well i’ve only been to Atlanta one summer and i loved it, i went to a braves game where they came back and defeated the Mets on a Javy Lopez homer wow that was a great day. YEah i live in Belize Central America/Caribbean btw so im used to the heat i guess.
#105. That’s great!
even though Stan had 3 rings
He’s 23rd in OPS+ career which is better, and there are some 19th century guys ahead of him who aren’t really in the discussion. Being between Mays and Dimaggio is a pretty good neighboorhood.
I understand how you feel Alex. I’ve been a Braves fan for 40 years and I get a special feeling when I see that uniform. But, there are other cool things about baseball. There are other great franchises. There are other great cities. I really can’t understand the attitude that I don’t care about Mickey Mantle because he played for the Yankees.
Robert,
#102 had me giggling. Gracias.
I’m not Old enough to talk about Mantle and those guys so i’ll stay far away
I never said Roberto was better than Hank, I said I probably would pay to see him play before I would Hank. Again no disrespect to Hank….He is definitely in the Top 10 greatest players of all-time.
True Robert. But I would have expected him to be up by guys like Ruth, Williams and Gehrig. I mean, even Dick Allen scores a point ahead of him.
In OPS+ I should mention
Agreed. Being behind the Greenberg, Mize, Allen group is a little surprising. Those were obviously great hitters, but still…
Clearly, we are talking about some pretty special players here anyway, so it doesn’t take anything away from Aaron. In fact, looking at that list, it helps make more of a case for Frank Thomas in the Hall when he retires.
Well maybe not TOP 10 but Aaron is in the TOP 20 of all-time.
Any lineup posted yet?
JoshQ, #81, Hank Aaron’s underappreciated for a few reasons, in my opinion.
1. He played in Milwaukee and Atlanta, far from the huge media poles in New York, Boston and later Los Angeles. And he played before TBS would have been able to broadcast him to every media market in the country.
2. He’s black, and he played during a very openly racist period in American history. He played the game with such comparative ease that he frequently didn’t appear to be breaking a sweat — by contrast, Willie Mays wore his cap loose so it would fly off in the wind when he went to catch a ball. As his ghostwriter Lonnie Wheeler pointed out, he was frequently portrayed as “shuffling” and slow” when white players who played that way would be called “elegant” and “dignified,” like Joe DiMaggio.
3. He’s the all-time home run leader. Since the beginning of baseball, home runs have been seen as somewhat less tasteful than “small ball”–given the choice, most old time baseball men would say they prefer a manufactured run than a solo shot. So Hank’s career is denigrated because of one of the many things he excelled at, and his skill at everything else (stolen bases, defense, contact hitting, high average, slugging, RBIs, etc.) is comparatively ignored.
4. Lots of people are morons.
Look, it’s readily apparent to virtually every Braves fan — and most hardcore baseball fans — that Hank Aaron was one of the greatest players of all time. I disagree with Marc that he’s only in the top 12; I think he’s in the top 5, and possibly in the top 3. But lots of baseball fans are ignorant homers, and have ridiculous ideas that Mickey Mantle or Joe DiMaggio were better than Hank Aaron. They weren’t, and it’s not close.
Oh…I just a horrible thoughT…ANDRUW BATTING CLEAN-UP TONITE!!
Everyone is acting like living in Atlanta is Kosovo. Weird.
Ethan, I think we’re making a lot of the same points.
Alex – it depends on if you are sitting in traffic or not. Sometimes it can feel like a war zone. 😉
But I promise…Atlanta really is a great place to live. wink, wink Right, Tex?
Play ball!
Go Braves!
I’ve made no secret that I love Andruw. He’s been my favorite player since Glavine turned, but even I hope he’s getting dropped in the order. If nothing else just for the sake of Alex R’s blood pressure.
It’s not Atlanta…it’s the fans down there who don’t support the team….well nevermind.
LOL…totally agree with you Robert. Alex R will have a 20 paragraph post on why AJ batting 4th is bad…
Lots of people seem to have a very bad impression of Atlanta. I’m really not sure why. I’ve live here almost all my life and it’s a perfectly nice place to live most of the time. I’ve also lived in Southern California (Irvine to be exact) and in Rome, Ga., while in college and found Atlanta to be far preferable to both of those places, not that that’s a large sample size or anything.
Wow, Robert, we can agree on that.
But even if ‘Druw is batting 4th, I still feel better now about this lineup w/ Tex in it.
Tony, first you’d rather play for the Yankees or Bosox. Then you decided to rip Hank Aaron. Now it’s the Braves fans.
Either you’re:
1. a Moron
2. like to cause arguments on every subject you can possibly think of
3. Are on the wrong board, completely
4. Or a combination of all those items.
No, Tony, I am only saving my paragraphs for you.
Nick,
Atlanta is not bad at all…it’s just when you venture out to the surrounding area that your realize some portions of the South are still stuck in the “good ole days”.
I vote for 4
Well, I’ll bite Tony…I am so sick of that old canard that Atlanta fans do not support the team. Simply because people don’t want to brave (pun intended) hellish six o’clock traffic through the middle of downtown Atlanta on federal highways to make it to a ball park that is difficult to get to and in one of the less safe areas of downtown Atlanta doesn’t mean fans don’t support their team here.
I’ll admit, we have been spoiled with TBS. But there is no lack of Braves support in Atlanta. There is certainly the transient nature of a large population (but many of them were already fans thanks to TBS) and no doubt football reigns supreme in the south, but if one is at all interested in sports in Atlanta, the Braves are generally high on that list.
OK, now you are simply being provocative, Tony. Sorry, no dice on this one. 😉
Julio has been DFA’d. Bobby made the right call here and I’m a more than a little surprised.
AAR, I completely agree with you.
It’s alot like Jim Edmonds vs. Andruw for best CF of the last decade. Andruw makes defense look SO easy because he gets great jumps, he’s pretty fast, and is second to none in reading the flight of the ball. Meanwhile, Edmonds doesn’t get the best of jumps, and if often forced to slip and slide every which way – same as Torii Hunter and thats why they are always “Web Gems” while Andruw isn’t.
Andruw is no Hank, and Edmonds is certainly no DiMaggio, but it’s a pretty similar modern comparison.
Yeah, I don’t disagree with that. As I said, I have lived in Rome…heh. I guess I’m also kind of used to that since my family and I travel around the South in the fall attending Tennessee football games.
in response to 123…
tonight’s lineup isn’t up yet, but rest assured…
…this quote taken from ESPN’s game preview write-up:
“Teixeira said he was told by Atlanta manager Bobby Cox that he would hit fourth Wednesday.”
A real cleanup hitter… 😯
Tony should be glad I was out for the last hour.
As I stated in the piece I wrote last week, Hank Aaron was a great, great player. He didn’t just hang around for a long time; he led the league in a lot of different categories, and was among the league leaders more often than any player but Cobb. When they started giving out multiple Gold Gloves in the outfield, he won in the first three years. In addition to his home run rank, he is the career leader in RBI and total bases, third in hits and runs, fifth in doubles. He stole 240 bases, when stolen bases were at a low ebb, and at a 77 percent success rate. He’s second in intentional walks, which should give you some idea of how he was held in his time. All this despite playing most of his career in a low-offense era. Nobody but Mays has been a more complete player.
AAR, #4 is a summation I suppose.
“Lots of people are morons.”
Jimbo – source? I just can’t find it anywhere.
If so, that’s a shame. Sounds like they just didn’t have the choice with Thorman out of options and Bobby so insistent on having Woodward. Jeez…
Nice
Johnson’s value continues to be limited with the Braves’ commitment to get Yunel Escobar playing time, but his hot July can’t be ignored: .356, 4 HR, 16 RBI in just 73 at-bats.
DOB’s blog at AJC.COM. He said they may offer him a coaching position and may bring him back once the rosters expand.
Coz,
I’ve been to Turner Field…hard to get to? I could see if it was in HIALEAH and not Miami, like Dolphins Stadium…but it’s right there in the downtown area. Safe area? Have you been to Yankee Stadium? RFK Stadium is right around the corner from the DC County jail…lol. C’mon Braves fan in Atlanta…FILL THOSE SEATS!! FILL THOSE SEATS!!
DOB has it in his blog.
http://www.ajc.com/blogs/content/shared-blogs/ajc/braves/entries/2007/08/01/_whod_have_thou.html
If I were you, I’d start at the bottom and scroll up.
If I had to choose any player ever to build a team around, it would probably be Wagner… but of post-1920 players it would be Hank. (Second would probably be Musial.) All due respect to Willie and other great players, but again… made the All-Star team 21 years in a row, got MVP votes 19 years in a row.
An analogy I’ve just come up with and am quite proud of (almost certainly prouder than I should be):
Responding to Tony is like throwing a lit match on a turd—as impossible as it seems, you’re actually making the situation even worse.
Now, if I could just stick to my own advice…
Perfect timing Mac.
Actually Mac, Aaron was 10th all time in doubles (and now, fourth in Runs) – but I agree entirely on the sentiment.
I’m outta here, be back later to argue some more. 🙂
Franco as coach? That seems right, I guess. I really thought he could have been useful as an experienced pinch hitter however. Oh well…ain’t the end of the world.
This is entirely Chris Woodward’s fault BTW.
You’re right about the doubles. Sorry.
Turner Field is not in Atlanta’s central area; there is relatively little to do outside the stadium; parking is limited; the train doesn’t go there so you have to take the bus.
I apparently have gotten on ESPN.com’s media mailing list. Hmm:
So I assume Julio will stick around through Friday, anyway.
Stu,
You’re absolutely right. I literally am beating my head against a wall trying to reason with Tony. It’s not worth it anymore.
Remember on the old site when we used to be able to click to ignore certain posters? I miss that.
But Tony, trashing the south, grouping us like we are all a bunch of uneductaed rednecks is the final straw. I would take pretty much anyone from the south on this site over you.
I mean, how smart can a guy be if he doesn’t even think Hank Aaron is one of the greatest players of all time?
I’m shocked about Franco. And disturbed by what this means about the official stance on Woodward.
Stu, that made me laugh out loud.
I’m actually glad to hear that about Julio. He had a couple great hits, and this will allow him to go out the right way. He’ll be a GREAT coach. This is exactly what I hoped would happen when we acquired him.
It would probably help if I spelled uneducated correctly – typing too. fast. must. slow. down. 😉
A reason lost in all this: we actually signed Woodward to an offseason contract. We would be wasting a whole lot more money if we DFAd him and not Julio, wouldn’t we?
“lit match on a turd” That’s why I love Southerners.
I am guessing the official stance on Woodward is that he survives another day, despite being universally hated.
“Your problem is you are a Braves fan and not a baseball fan.”
This is a great point, Marc. It’s one of the things that can be most aggravating about the discussions on here. At times, there is such ignorance about other players in the league (Aaron Harang being a major example) that it is impossible to have an intelligent conversation about baseball unless it directly relates to either the Braves or something on Baseball Tonight.
I’m not making a value judgment on which is better, but I can’t say I understand it.
Oh, for God’s sake.
Good point, Nick. Still think he’d of had more value to the team than Woodward. But then again, so does Tex’s jock strap. 😉
Mac–at what point to certain people get the boot? Is ripping Hank Aaron not enough?
Woodward is more valuable than Franco. They each can’t hit but Woodward can at least play seven positions and not look foolish defensively. What can you say? They couldn’t option Thorman to Richmond, the Braves made the right choice.
A good point, David. Part of the reason why there’s always a fairly sizeable group of people on here who dislike any trade initially, going back to that.
Nick,
Sunk costs, both of ’em. Release the one who will give you less going forward.
Yes, david15, I make no bones about being a Braves fan first, a Baseball fan second.
Personally, I thought Franco still looked pretty good at 1st. But I’ll certainly grant you that Woodward can play more positions and we are pretty set at 1st. 🙂
I reject the “Woodward is better defensively than Franco” line of thinking. Woodward is terrible defensively. In fact, he may be the worst defensive utility infielder I’ve ever seen.
I don’t disagree with you Stu. I’m just saying that maybe that’s the reason we did it.
Mac,
Cool it with the insults. I never said Hank was not one of the greatest. I said he is not one of my favorites and he’s not.
When did I insult the South? I think you owe me an apology. Final straw? Are you kidding me? Why would I come on the Braves site and insult the South? This North vs. South is ridiculous seeing how I went to college in the South.
If you are that sensitive about something I said that you perceived to be an insult, then you don’t have to ignore me on your site, I will gladly dismiss myself. Not trying to redo the Civil War.
I think JS was more concerned about removing the temptation to play Julio over his latest great acquisition away from Booby.
Nick,
If you could explain the comparison you’re trying to draw between what david15 said and being against certain trades, I’d appreciate it. (Hint: there isn’t a legit one.)
I’m a little pissed it was Julio and not Woodward. That’s ridiculous.
Tony,
Mac never insulted you, he just proved you were wrong
Justin Parker – Now that’s funny. Thanks for that chuckle. 🙂
Actually, I don’t recall that Mac ever insulted him. And Tony, your own insult towards the south was post #134.
sentimentally i still wanted to see julio play til he was 50. but i wasn’t thrilled with his signing in the first place. what are the chances he is resigned for the 40 man roster?
alex r — sorry it took me so long to get back to you. my wife’s from richmond (her parents now live in the area where justin verlander is from) but i’m from lynchburg (brandon inge was in my little league) — it’s about 3.5 hours straight down from you in alexandria on 29. but we live in madison, wisc for school right now. my wife and son just went to ricmond today though and i’ll join them in a couple of weeks (we’re taking my son on the extended family tour and then going to myrtle beach with my family).
From yahoo:
Escobar 2B
Renty SS
Chip 3B
Tex 1B
Andruw CF
Frenchy RF
McCann C
Diaz LF
Now that’s and effing lineup.
Kelly Johnson goes 4-for-4 with two homeruns and five runs driven in yesterday? His reward today? The bench.
Oh how I hate platoons.
I’m not sure if being ignorant about other players makes people react against trades in a visceral way, but that’s mostly because fans tend to think too much of their own players anyway, whether they pay attention to the rest of baseball or not.
But not knowing anything about the rest of the players in the league probably compounds that.
So much for Joe Simpson’s wish of having Andruw Jones bat seventh or eighth until his batting average started to rise and he could show some good, consistent hitting over a decent period of time.
At least he’s no longer batting cleanup.
“I mean, how smart can a guy be if he doesn’t even think Hank Aaron is one of the greatest players of all time?”
That’s an insult. Justin “Peter” Parker.
I guess my problem on here is I don’t kiss @ss…like certain people.
I’m not saying that everybody on here is against every single trade. And I’m not saying that that’s the only reason that anyone on here would not like a given trade. And I’m not saying it’s the same people who are always against trades in general.
What I am saying is that, given what David said, it seems that it would be likely that there will be people on here who overvalue our players and undervalue everyone else’s. For example, Startup vs. Ring. The numbers say they’re pretty much the exact same player and Ring has Major League experience, but a bunch of people didn’t like the trade because Startup was our guy who we’ve been talking about for a couple years now and Ring is some guy who pitches in the Padres organization. That’s not the only example but that’s the most clear-cut recent one.
Count me as bummed about Julio. One of the few remaining ballplayers older than I am. Reminds me of when I was a kid and would say to myself, “It’s not too late for my dad to try out for the Braves — he’s still younger than Niekro!”
Note to self — it’s not a good thing to see 150 posts after 1 1/2 hours. Some of you don’t seem to realize that you’re here for my entertainment, so get cracking!
I’m shocked that it was Julio. He looked like he was starting to swing the bat well.
And Esco starting….let the hate began on Bravesjournal.
Nick,
I think the peeps against the Ring trade (I’m one of them) are looking mosly at age and arbitration clocks in questioning that move. Like you said, they’re basically the same player—why give up the one who stays young and cheap for longer?
Yunel:Clemente::KJ:Aaron
LOL…yeah. This 2B platoon has officially gone from annoying to destructive. If this were the playoffs, this would be worse than the Bautista instead of Tucker move.
Great, so now Teixeira will be pitched around. Fantastic. Maybe when we’re against righties we’ll employ the McCann in fifth spot move still. One can only hope.
THERE IS A GOD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1111111111111111
NO MORE JULIO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1111111111
I haven’t been this happy since Sid slid!!!!!!!1111111
Esco vs LHP .333/.379/.395/.774
Kelly vs LHP .264/.364/.430/.794
Ah…no big deal.
No if you want to argue that you are stunting Kelly development, go right ahead. But a leadoff hitter with a .379 OBP is not going to hurt anything.
Regarding Ring and Startup, you guys need to look at the stats again — they’re not the same player. Ring has a better K-rate, much better groundball rate, and is better against lefties. Startup doesn’t exactly have the profile you look for in a situational left-hander.
Also, you can find a legitimate reason for most any trade, Stu. And I must say you have been one of the most reasoned of the people who didn’t like some or all of the trades the past few days. But I do believe that subconsciously this happens, just like subconsciously I’ll probably find a reason to almost any trade that swaps prospects for a win-now type mentality.
But FWIW there were also people on here saying things like “Elvis Andrus is a defensive whiz” and “Matt Harrison will one day be an ace” that the numbers just don’t bear out. And those are the people that I’m really talking about, I guess.
Bye bye, Julio Franco. I respect the hell out of you.
Yeah, but perhaps you should compare Escobar to Harris and Johnson to Diaz, since those are the spots in the order they’d be taking respectively. You look at that and I’m guessing you will find our problem.
In fact, Nick, there’s no way to even know such a thing about prospects, so you are correct. I’d imagine most are simply going with a “gut feeling” which may or may not be informed. Besides, it makes sense that most general fans are more familiar with their own team. Seems natural.
Chris Woodward is the 2007 version of Todd Hollandsworth (2005) i.e. veteran waste-oid.
At the time we acquired Hollandsworth, “He’s somebody who has been through the pennant race and experienced the playoffs,” GM John Schuerholz said. Big fat = NOT.
I dont think Todd H even made the playoff roster as he did not get an AB the entire series.
I wish we picked up Todd Walker (1st round pick) when he was dropped by the As and carried him instead of Woodward (54th round pick).
I am always for carrying guys who were higher draft picks when making a marginal player decision. Walker would have at least batted .260 with aptitude to play 1B, 2b, 3B.
Jeremy,
A fair point. If either was only going to be used as a LOOGY, Ring’s the better fit.
Kelly Johnson has already hit more homeruns so far this season than Escobar will through the end of the 2008 season.
I wanted Julio on the team…uggghhh
And Jeremy, he wasn’t gonna be closing games for us for quite some time, given that we will have both Soriano and Gonzalez. I would say better to give him up for someone you know can be a middle reliever than try and turn him into one, especially since you know that if he’s in the bullpen and isn’t the closer or setup guy, Bobby will try to use him as a situational lefty.
And Stu just managed to make my point much better and more concisely while I was typing all that up…heh.
The 2B platoon doesn’t bother me.
Both KJ & Yunel are having fine seasons so far. Given his power, KJ is certainly better than Yunel at the plate, but Yunel has come up with some huge hits this year & played well.
When both players contribute in a platoon situation, like our LFs, I don’t complain about them when they succeed.
My issue with the Tucker/Bautista comparison is that neither of those guys were really any good. For their careers, they were very similar players.
Nick,
I appreciate you noticing that I’m not just generally anti-trade. I try to look at things objectively.
And I must admit that, while I initially expressed great concern over giving up SO much for Teix, that’s been completely neutralized by the high I’ve been riding since knowing we were adding his bat to the middle of our lineup.
Kelly Johnson has already hit more homeruns so far this season than Escobar will through the end of the 2008 season.
Sure. To be clear, I think it’s pretty obvious KJ should be playing everyday. It would be better for the team now and in the future. Just saying that the fact that he’s not is not a real big deal as long as Esco does some approximation of what he’s done so far. This is not a Klesko/Dave Gallagher situation.
I’m not sure it has much to do with how high they were drafted, Rip. Walker’s pretty obviously the better player. I can only surmise that Woodward costs less and this was back when we were still worried about the payroll. I would like to think that if we made the same decision again, we would take Walker.
Yes, but one had just single-handedly won us a must-win game while the other had just spent said entire game sitting on his ass and, as you said, wasn’t very good to begin with.
I admit though that it was kind of a crappy comparison, especially since one was an elimination playoff game and the other is a game on the first of August against a sub-.500 team.
I appreciate you noticing that I’m not just generally anti-trade.
I am generally anti-trade, but I had no problem with Ring-Startup or (upon further reflection) Dotel-Davies. I mean if you are going for it, then effing go for it. Sweat the details, spare no expense.
Here’s a little tidbit for the people who think Davies doesn’t have a chance to turn into a good pitcher.
Here’s what Roy Halladay’s career looked like through his first 231 ML IP (Davies has 237).
ERA
Halladay: 5.77
Davies: 6.15
K/9
Halladay: 5.4
Davies: 6.5
BB/9
Halladay: 4.8
Davies: 4.9
HR/9
Halladay: 1.36
Davies: 1.29
K/BB ratio
Halladay: 1.13
Davies: 1.37
WHIP
Halladay: 1.71
Davies: 1.71
…let God sort ’em out, Robert? 😉
Kind of feel that way myself, right now. And I knew you come along for the rise, Stu.
make that “come along for the ride”
Yeah, Jeremy, but Dotel will give us AT LEAST 5 good innings this year. 😉
When both players contribute in a platoon situation, like our LFs, I don’t complain about them when they succeed.
This is my general approach, too, and it certainly applies to both platoons we’re currently employing. Diaz in particular strikes me as someone who is being used to his best effect.
With the exception of the Mike Piazza’s of the world, there is usually a reason when you are drafted in the 54th round. I would venture a guess; the number of curent MLB 25-man roster players drafted in round 54 or later is less than 4.
Close your eyes and imagine Woodward making the last out of the season during the playoffs. Now, imagine Julio making the last out.
Under these two scenarios, I would verbalize two completely different words/phrases at that moment.
I am glad you made that point, sansho1. We see that KJ, Escobar, Diaz and Harris are performing mostly well in their current roles. We assume they might do better given time to play every day, but one never knows and Bobby has built his career out of knowing such things. While I’d rather see KJ playing every day and Diaz getting most of the time in LF, I accept that Bobby has provided enough division titles such that any question I might have is easily answerable and backed up by a track record.
Matt Diaz is a bunch o’ fun and what a pinch-hitter!
Nick,
I still don’t get bent out of shape over the lineup for that ’98 NLCS game. We got 2-hit & shut out. We made Sterling Hitchcock look like Lefty Grove.
And that 5-run inning brutality personified.
Here’s a question – does any other team claim Franco? I’d love it if he could hang on until September and be a presence for the final month.
he cleared the first time, i don’t see why he wouldn’t again. but you never know.
at least i think he cleared the first time… the braves got him as a free agent, right?
Jeremy@215,
The difference in my mind would be that Halladay had 160+ innings of sub-4 ERA ball in that stretch followed by a brutal 67 innings of 10+ ERA ball.
Davies, on the other hand, had 23 awesome innings of 0.77 ERA followed by 200+ innings of roughly 6.50 ERA ball.
I kept hoping Davies would put it together but I don’t think the comparison to Halladay is terribly accurate despite the initial surface similarity.
Please, someone save us from our own stupidity and claim Franco! You will always be my second favorite team if you do so. Look at the Giants, they are terrible but still sell out PacBell because Bonds is going for the record. I’m sure that the GAB or PNC would pack to the rafters every night waiting to see Franco turn 50 in a major league uniform.
anyone watching braves live?
Wasn’t Halladay injured in 2000, when he posted a 10.64 ERA?
His game log from that year is something else — his final appearance was in relief of Chris Carpenter (!) on September 28. He entered the game with a 10.75 ERA, gave up seven “unearned” runs in 2/3 of an inning, and left with a 10.64 ERA. That’s right, he was even worse than the numbers indicate.
At any rate, he got some fairly serious control problems figured out after 2000 — good for him, but I don’t know how well the example translates. Most good pitchers don’t struggle to that extent, even early in their careers.
Anyone want to predict Davies’ line when he pitches for the first time against the Yankees?
Going out on a limb I’d say
7 1/3 ip, 2 ER, 8 Ks, 7 H
Salty with a 2 RBI single in his first at bat as a ranger. Batting 7th, playing 1st.
Good for him.
I don’t understand this. I understand they want a left-handed bat on the bench, but Thorman sucks. He’s had 25 years to fix his stupid caveman swing, and he hasn’t yet. What makes you think he’ll be ready to take the reins once Tex leaves? Dude just isn’t a good baseball player. Ugh…Julio hits right hand pitching better than Thorman does, for sure. And his swing was definitely picking up.
And to those who are glad Julio is gone – Thorman still has more strikeouts than hits.
best wishes to salty. hope he does great.
25 years? Canadians don’t pick up a baseball when they’re born. They play hockey.
Plllllllllllaaaaaaaaay Ball!
Again, its soooo frustrating that KJ doesn’t start after a 4-4, 2 HR, 5 RBI day…on but there’s a lefty and Escobar has a .15 better OBP.
Buddy Carlyle wants to see the boys swing
Murph – I’m not convinced they pick up baseballs until they’re at least 16. How else do you explain their startling pattern of mediocrity: Orr, Reitsma, Thorman. Even Bay has had a bad year.
some nice in game analysis from joe simpson. that was a great slide by Yunel.
weldon… i think you were referring to someone else’s post.
but you could counter with justin morneau and russell martin as canadians that are tearing it up
OK Tex, no pressure. The grand salami would be cool though! (I’ll settle for the double)
Anyone notice Arroyo’s first inning tonight?
Did he load the bases and then walk in a run before registering an out?
Atta boy Andruw
243 — ugh. arroyo’s terrible tonight
Wow either this guy completely sucks. Or we are really good.
I guess if Francoeur walked then he can’t be all that good, but this is exciting.
Let’s bat around twice in the first and then rest the regulars.
This is embarrassing
If I remember correctly, Wandy Rodriguez is the guy who shut the Braves down for two or three innings in extras in the 18-inning game four of the 2005 NLDS.
@247
I was one of Francouer’s biggest detractors last year but he seems to have a much better idea of the strike zone these days.
Yeah, but that was the pre-Teixeira Braves
diaz!
Keep it up, boys.
Nothing like an early-inning ass-whippin’…
What would you rather have:
A. 2006 Jeff Francoeur. Batting average around .250-.260, few walks, OBP slightly below .300 but good for 25-30 homeruns.
B. 2007 Jeff Francoeur. Higher batting average, more walks, better plate disipline, higher OBP but less homeruns.
And I think platoons are ok
Yea, I suddenly like the platoon thing more!
Touchdown!
I’d rather have B.
I’m liking the start to the Tex era.
255 — i take jeff francoeur B
keep the runs coming!
I have to go with Francoeur’s 2007 season.
And that should about do it. Welcome to town Tex.
B
OBP>SLG
53 pitches in the first inning? Can they just replace rotator cuffs in the dugout between innings?
Frenchy has exactly the same slugging this year as he did last year; and his OBP is 50 points higher… so yeah, I’d take 2007.
i’m only tracking on-line… is that really wandy rodriguez or did kyle davies sneak in there? heh heh.
just kidding. although he’s been really terrible, i’m one of the few guys on here that thinks davies could still pull it together.
Alright, Buddy, throw strikes & try to keep it in the park, OK?
So.. I guess the hitters liked the trades.
i think carlyle had to go warm up again after he hit
Francoeur ain’t hitting 29 homeruns this season, that I can be certain of.
But I like this Francoeur better too. His batting average this year is currently higher than his 2006 OBP.
268 — and playing the astros doesn’t hurt
Hey, I’ve been curious about something. With the Phillies so hot, and with Hamels dealing and Howard raking, does anyone here worry more about them than with the Mets?
The only team I’m worried about right now is whoever comes out of the AL to face us in the World Series.
I still think the Mets are better than the Phils, overall, but not by much.
Hamels is great, but Maine, Glavine & El Duque are better than Philly’s top 3. Also, Feliciano & Wagner have been very good this year.
What song did teixeira come out to? was it hendrix?
Fielder demolishes one to dead center, 3-0 Brewers over the Mets.
It hit the Miller sign in high center. What a bomb.
in other Mets pitching news: Prince Fielder just hit one of the most massice home runs I’ve ever seen off Perez.
I love seeing o.p.p get lit up, i’m sure all bucs fans do too
Skip Caray and the GADOT need to take it to THUNDERDOME!
kyle and adam… seriously that was a bomb
Gotta wonder if Arroyo was down in the dumps today about being stuck on a nowhere team. I have to think he was excited about the possibility of going to a contender.
mets just took the lead though. vargas sucks
both the Brewers and mets are without their best players…guess who winds up with the advantage…
Cubs and Braves?
Who are the Brewers missing? Their lineup looks right to me.
sheets is out. weeks got sent down to AAA…
They optioned Rickie Weeks today, but he doesn’t qualify as one of their best.
They replaced Sheets in the rotation with Gallardo. Granted, Sheets is an ace, but Gallardo is a very, very fine pitcher.
Who added this to Mr. Sciambi’s wikipedia page?
In his spare time Boog likes to date lots of hot chicks,including past romances with Jessica Alba,Scarlett Johanssen, and Ashley Simpson. He also has a lifetime membership in the Burger King “Whopper Club”. A humanitarian,Boog gives monies to many charities,and is helping O.J Simpson search for the real killers.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jon_Sciambi
brewers just tied it up
just went up
ollie perez is getting knocked around. how is it he owns the braves?
http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20070802/ts_nm/bridge_collapse_dc_4;_ylt=AjZ2T3itXSWiH0dSqcXa1FIE1vAI
Puts everything in perspective. Those of you that can’t watch the game, this is on CNN right now
oh man… that’s terrible news.
Did Wandy really just hit for himself down six runs and already over 100 pitches?
mets just hit another 3 run homer. vargas is terrible tonight.
Marlon Anderson 3-run HR. Mets up 7-5.
215 — I think Halladay went down to the minors and completely redid his mechanics, throwing from more of a 3/4 angle than over the top.
why was carlyle pulled?
MLB says injury, WTF?
Pulled a muscle in his right side. Good thing we got rid of Davies. I smell a Cormier call-up…
crap
Is it the dreaded OBLIQUE?
Now what’s happening? “Off field delay…”
Tex!
Wow! Way to make a splash right from the get-go!
I guess this means he’s not pressing…
The glogger for Gamecenter on Sportsline said Carlyle was taken out for precautionary reasons.
Party like it’s 1993!
(Tonight looks like a good night to offer Tex an extension–I think he’s happy here…)
The crowd goes wild!
Welcome, Tex!!
awesome tex. awesome
how many walks is that now for houston pitching?
7
8
tell me Tex got a curtain call
He did.
Mets lead 8-5 in the 7th
Phillies tied 4-4 in the 6th
I think his name should be Ron “Mexico” Mahay.
hey everyone… check this out:
http://www.talkingchop.com/special/paypalorder
it’s “Blackout the Ted” night when SF comes to Atlanta.
Welcome to the Octagon.
7 pitches. Game.
I could get used to this.
I could get used to 12 runs a game.
I’m giddy, but worried about Carlyle’s “elbow injury.”
Carlyle hurt his elbow during a swing, but he looked as if he shook it off. He took one more huge swing before he struck out and didnt look like it was hurting. He then came out and warmed up for the next inning. Bobby came out and pulled him for Villareal and Carlyle looked pissed off. He wanted to stay in I think. He was talking to the trainers and Chuckie and looked okay. he’s day to day, but he looked fine when he left