Octavio Dotel

Acquired for Kyle Davies, when (as I’ve stated before) I’d have taken anything for Davies at this point, so I’m pretty happy. As a starter, Dotel was a hot prospect in the Mets chain in the late nineties, but didn’t pitch well in his callup in 1999. After the season, the Mets traded him to the Astros as part of a package for Mike Hampton and Derek Bell. He didn’t do well as a starter in Houston either, but they converted him to relief when Billy Wagner was hurt and struggling, and Dotel saved 16 games.

Wagner was back at full strength in 2001, and Dotel moved to the setup role, where for the next two seasons he was the best reliever in baseball. Over two seasons (including four starts in 2001) he threw 202 1/3 innings, struck out 263, went 13-9 with eight saves, and put up a 2.27 ERA. His control wasn’t the greatest, but when you’re only allowing six hits per nine innings a few walks won’t kill you. He was still very good in 2003, and moved into the closer role after Wagner’s departure in 2004, saving fourteen games before being traded to the A’s during the season as part of the Beltran deal.

It didn’t really work out for him in Oakland, and he was having some arm issues at this point. He threw only 15 innings in 2005 and was allowed to leave as a free agent. He threw ten disastrous innings for the Yankees in 2006, and was let go by them, signing with the Royals. He missed most of the early season with arm injuries, but came back in late May. He pitched pretty well, eleven saves and a 3.91 ERA in a hitter’s park, and struck out 29 in 23 innings. He still doesn’t have the greatest control.

Octavio Dotel Statistics – Baseball-Reference.com

185 thoughts on “Octavio Dotel”

  1. So who’s our back up starter now?

    Also, Alex I think you left off Peter Moylan from the bullpen in the last thread.

  2. Getting rid of Davies alone deserves a 5. Getting a solid reliever like Dotel for him earns an even higher number.

  3. JDMaker,

    yes, I did–and Moylan has done a nice job so he should definitely be included among the 8 relievers.


    I couldn’t agree more.

    Rob Cope,

    (from the previous thread)

    Yes, I think that’s a fair conclusion. We are basically “stuck” with Thorman and since he’s only 24, seems like a waste to DFA him and not just keep him on the Braves roster as a lefty pinch hitter for the rest of 2007.

  4. Dotel will make a great 7th or 8th inning guy. I couldnt be happier about our trade deadline deals, we got the best of what was available…Tex’s price was a little steep, but I think he is worth it…

  5. I still like Thorman as a bench hitter, despite his caveman like swing. I think he is pretty well suited for that roll. I’d be much happier seeing him come into the game that say, Woodward.

  6. just the atmosphere and energy in the park had changed when he showed up. The players and fans looked excited. Im hoping it will continue and these last 2 months should be a lot of fun

  7. I don’t think Thorman is such a bad guy to be “stuck” with even though he has struggled. He does have 10 home runs and it would be a lot better having him pinch hit than Orr or Woodward. The Braves are really a meat grinder for young players; on the one hand, they get to play quickly, on the other hand, they are shipped out if they don’t produce quickly. If you look at some of the highly touted rookies around MLB playing for bad teams, they struggle but often come on strong later in the year. Of course, you can afford that luxury when you are not in contention. The point is, I don’t believe the Braves were complete idiots thinking Thorman can play and I don’t really want to just discard him.

    As for Dotel, I’m glad to get him but people seem to have soured on Soriano very quickly. Obviously, he has struggled but I suspect at least some of that is from overuse. He has looked better the last couple of outings. At his best earlier in the year, Soriano was a lot better than Dotel is likely to be.

  8. Marc: I for one agree with you on the Dotel-Soriano comment. Just keep Soriano away from the starting 5 and I’m happy. I think Soriano will be a solid setup-man for the rest of the year. It should be nice for Dotel to take some of the load of off his shoulders, not to mention getting a power lefty to replace Gonzo in the setup roll.

  9. I also agree – between Mahay and Dotel, Soriano, Yates and Moylon should get a bit more rest and will hopefully be fresh by late September. And if we can keep Cox from putting Wickman in the game with runners on, we should do well.

  10. Wickman scares me most of the time. If we only use him in blowouts I’ll be happy. Though I know that is completely impracticle, if not impossible.

  11. I think Prado is an integral part of the RBraves success. I would doubt he comes up unless the ABraves really need him. I’d bet they wait until the RBraves season is done.

  12. ‘I think Prado is an integral part of the RBraves success. I would doubt he comes up unless the ABraves really need him. I’d bet they wait until the RBraves season is done.’

    JS doesn’t care about the RBraves wins and losses. He’s trying to win the National League, not the International League.

  13. “I’m excited about it,” Teixeira said. “Playing in Texas, unfortunately we didn’t have a lot of winning seasons. By the middle of the season, you were just kind of playing for pride. Here I’ve got a chance to play for a World Series, which is everybody’s dream. I can’t ask for a better situation.”

    maybe he just turned down that 8yr/140 deal becuase he was tired of losing. I bet if we get to the playoffs, that same extention would be accepted

  14. Jimbo,

    There was a debate yesterday afternoon about how much JS cares or doesn’t about the RBraves success.

    I am on your side…I don’t think Schuerholz would ever risk any positions in Atlanta based on the type of season Richmond might be having. Sure, they like selling tickets in Richmond and if it’s not necessary to add a player from Richmond, then fine, but I can’t imagine JS cares as much about wins 7 losses in Richmond as Atlanta.

    Though, maybe we’re wrong, seeing as we have inexplicably called up Corky miller over Brayan Pena.

  15. I agree, csg. He’s still going to demand top dollar whether he is here, Texas or anywhere else based on his output, age and especially his evil agent, but, I very much believe he probably was tired of losing in Texas.

  16. I know I don’t post a whole lot here, so I don’t expect my comments to get much response, but I was quite serious about being excited about the Braves again. I don’t know how long it’s been, but it seems like I’d resigned myself to the Braves’ inevitable decline due to payroll constraints. The past couple of years have been difficult, although it did bring home the absurdity of being so good for so long, which was unthinkable for much of the 1980s (when I started following the Braves).

    Today I really am excited to be a Braves fan again, and it’s about damn time.

  17. It sort of scares me that the conventional wisdom is that the Braves are the big winners because the conventional wisdom is often wrong. And it scares me even more that the BBTN dimwits think that we did well. It makes you think there must be something wrong here. (:

    Anyway, there are certainly going to need a deep bullpen if James keeps going 5 innnings. He has been pitching better so he deserves one of these but he just has to go farther into games.

    BTW, a question regarding quality starts. I know a QS is 6 innings with 3 runs; does the standard change if the pitcher goes longer. For example, would 7 innings with 4 runs constitute a quality start?

  18. If Tex is willing to give us a win now discount (like Maddux did) I would love our chances to extend him. But I don’t think Scott Boras believes in discounts.

    In other news, more wackiness from Ozzie Guillen:

    “White Sox manager Ozzie Guillen was ejected by plate umpire Phil Cuzzi in the first inning. Cuzzi also tossed Konerko from the game in the sixth.
    ‘Since 1985, I’ve never seen any umpire disrespect players and managers the way this guy does,’ Guillen said.”

    This would be the pot calling the kettle black. There is no one in baseball who disrespects people like Ozzie Guillen, who makes Tony La Russa seem almost tolerable.

  19. Marc, QS means 6 or more innings, 3 or fewer runs. So 8 innings and 3 runs is a QS, 13 innings and 4 runs isn’t. Not a terribly useful stat, but there ya go.

  20. Just read on DOB something that surprises me a bit. He thinks the Braves will move one of the middle infielders in the offseason, either Edgar or Kelly and that Kelly is obviously younger and cheaper. Sounds like they may intent on keeping Escobar and don’t want to keep him on the bench even for one year until Edgar’s contract is up.

  21. Jimbo & AAR: I agree that he wants to win the NL not the IL. But throwing up a centerpiece of the RBraves just to ride the pine in the NL doesn’t make much sense.

    The RBraves are posed to make a run at winning the IL this year and are in the process of planning a new stadium. They have had crappy seasons as of late and as a result attendance has suffered.

    This year has been pleasant surprise. I would think the Braves orginization, who also owns their farm teams (which is rare), wants to see all of the teams successful.

    That’s one of the reasons I think that Pena isn’t getting the nod either. He has been playing LF/1B more often than catcher in Richmond. Either, they want him to stay and help out the RBraves or they don’t want him catching. The latter of which doesn’t make sense to me.

  22. I can’t understand why we would choose to keep Escobar over Kelly Johnson. That makes no sense–and I am one of the people who likes Escobar.

    Billy Jay-

    I feel your excitement…getting teixeira feels like the day in 1993 when we got McGrff or when we first found out we were getting Tim Hudson.

    It gives you butterflies whenever our team adds a superstar.

  23. I think that if Miller got called up over Pena, it’s because the organization (read: JS) thinks that is what’s best for the (Atlanta) Braves. Miller’s job will be to give McCann a break once in a while. Maybe they’re thinking of Pena playing LF or 1B. Maybe they think he needs some more development. Miller obviously isn’t going to gain anything by staying in Richmond at this point in his career.

  24. well you definitely dont trade Kelly to make room for Yunel. If anyone has to go, unfortunately, it has to be Edgar. However, I think he’ll give us the most return in the offseason and it’ll free up some payroll. I’ll miss him

  25. I agree Alex. KJ has much more upside, IMO. Escobar may be a better fielder, but KJ has more power and comparable average potential.

  26. billy: I’m not sure if I totally agree with you. Corky, is not going to gain anyhing regardless of where he plays. I always thought he must be a good “teaching AAA catcher.” He’s great defensively, but you might as well have Smoltz bat for him.

    I think he is just going to sit there in case McCann gets hurt during a game. He may take a couple starts here and there, but my bet is Pena gets called up after the IL season is over.

  27. KJ showed exactly what he’s capable of last night.

    You always either want a budding superstar with amazing speed (Furcal, Jose Reyes) or big power and OBP upside (like KJ or a Chase Utley) at the middle infield as a starter—you don’t choose a nice player like Yunel Escobar, who hit’s for a high average but is a singles hitter, over speed or power guys with big upside.

    If Rentaria, this offseason, nets us someone like Aaron Harang, we have to do it.

  28. This is just my opinion, but Brayan Pena is signifigantly better than Corky Miller. It’s not even comparable–Miller stinks.

  29. why are we trying to move all of our inf’s? They must think that Lillibridge is close because he would have to take over once Edgar leaves. I would rather have all 3 there next year and keep the deep bench than to trade either KJ or Yunel. I think KJ and Yunel could give us some stability in the infield for several years. if someone had to go its Edgar

  30. I can see us shopping Renteria, but not KJ in the offseason. We will have a hole in center and you can always use starting pitching, so Renteria’s value may help us there.

    Also, did anyone else see CJ Wilson pitch last night for Texas? UHHHH…I think I see now why we couldn’t pry him away from Texas.

  31. You dont give up KJ for the 08 season and then lose Edgar the following year to FA. Then you have Lillibridge and Yunel, who will give you absolutely no power from those positions.

  32. I’d be upset to see Rent go. He has been our “Rock” the first half. Although, he is a bit pricy and could net a good return. I just don’t see Yunel’s ceiling being much higher than a very good utility fielder. Don’t get me wrong, I love having him on the team. He brings heart, great fundamentals, and appears to be an Ichiro pain in the ass to get out (minus the power).

    I trust JS, and I’d be happy either way it turns out. There could be a lot worse things than having Yunel be a starter.

  33. My guess is that trading Renteria would give the Braves the best chance of getting a starting pitcher in the off-season.

  34. csg,

    Sure, we’d like to keep all 3 but we have to get a starter this offseason.

    Unless you really believe Mike Hampton will be coming back in 2008, healthy and productive?

    We’ve been let down too many times by him to count on that.

  35. JD,

    Let me put it this way.

    Would you rather do say Rentaria for Harang (or equivalent level #1 or #2 starter)


    Escobar & Reyes for Arroyo (or equivalent) or say just Escobar for an even lesser starter?

    I would rather sacrifice (only in the off season, not during the current pennant race) edgar to net the Braves a legit ace.

  36. Nope, I dont expect Hampton to do anything and I really wish he would just retire and save us the payroll. However, Im just stating that if one of the three get traded, you dont trade the 25 yr old thats cheap to keep Edgar when he has the most value that he’ll ever have. Im fine starting Escobar at SS, but Im not okay with trading KJ to make room for him and then lose Renteria to FA after next season

  37. Alex: If Edgar can get us an ace I’m all for it. We just have to live with Yunel being a singles hitter. If he can keep his OBS up and lead off, I’d be more than happy with that.

  38. Losing possibly Andruw and Edgar is tough this offseason, though netting Teixeira helps a lot, and I assume that we will land at least a solidly productive replacement enter fielder like Crisp or Baldelli to fix the Andruw hole.

    But if trading Edgar in December gets a Harang type, that’s signifigant–as signifigant as Teixeira.

  39. Eh, I don’t want Coco Crisp. I’d rather have a Tori Hunter type. Coco’s not productive enough for my tastes.

  40. Alex & JDMaker1,

    I consider it a given that Pena is better than Miller. I’d also consider it a given that the baseball men in the Braves braintrust know that, too. If that’s true, then there must be another reason for them to call up Miller. I think it’s that he simply won’t be playing much and Pena will be getting a lot of work in Richmond. When the IL season ends and rosters expand, I’m sure that Pena will be in Atlanta and I wouldn’t be surprised if he plays more than Miller.

  41. Trading Renteria this offseason would definitely be a “sell high” situation. We would have to see what we can get, but I sure hope he would not have to go based on the higher salary. I think that might mean we have made no progress on team payroll.

  42. All I remember is Coco beating us by himself when the Sox came into town. His offense is a lot better this year and he’s one of the best defensive CF available. Hunter would be great, but might be about the same price range as Andruw for us. Thats assuming Andruw has lost some value and Hunter has gained some. Whats the scoop on Brandon Jones?

    I think our offense will be fine next year


    not explosive but if our rotation was

    Smoltz, Hudson, Harang/Arroyo, James, Hampton

    we would be more than adequate. Its just what kind of pitcher can Edgar bring us

  43. well you got to think we just added another $12 mil to our payroll with Tex. Smoltz and Huddy go up $13 mil. So I would say that just getting Tex means that Liberty has indeed raised the payroll. The bigger question remains how much higher will they go and could we keep Andruw. I dont like the thought of losing both of these guys, but I dont want to lose both to FA one year after another

  44. Jones started in LF for the RBraves yesterday. I think he batted 3rd, went 1 for 4 with a double. He’s batting ~.170. I don’t know what his other stats look like pre Richmond, but I’m sure they’re decent if he got promoted.

  45. whats sad is we are going to have $41 million tied up into 3 of our injury prone pitchers next year

  46. thanks JD

    good numbers in AA, but struggling in Richmond. he might be a full season away. His K numbers are a little alarming

  47. The Miller thing is pretty simple. JS and Bobby have always preferred to have a “veteran” as back up catcher. The few months earlier this year when Pena was the backup were the anomaly. The normal state of affairs is to have some worthless nobody like Todd Pratt or Corky Miller. This is also incidentally why it was a sure thing Salty would be traded. Braves management doesn’t like to waste the backup catcher slot on a player who can actually hit.

    The only way I can see the Braves trading Edgar after this season is if they resign Andruw or sign one of the top free agent outfielders. Escobar hits for a good average but he has next to no power and replacing Edgar with him full time while losing Andruw would more than negate what was gained by trading for Teixeira and put the team in the position of needing to add offense next July as well.

  48. Well, I know it will be hard to keep him after 2008, but hell, if Johann is pissed at the Twins front office, I think we at Braves Journal would be happy to trade Rentaria for the BEST PITCHER IN BASEBALL–even just for 1 year.

    Imagining Johann Santana as a Brave, is akin to imagining Jessica Biel naked.

  49. And hey, if we are increasing payroll and likely to see Smoltz retire in 2008 (his salary off the books), we could legitimately build this team around Santana and Teixeira going forward.

  50. CSG: Yeah, he does have a few more SO’s than I would like. It will be interesting to see how the rest of his season in Richmond pans out. I’m going to have to go watch a game soon, I’ll report back when I do.

    Ron: That makes sense to me.

  51. Guys,

    If Kenny Williams turned down Renteria for Garland (I realize there’s some doubt about that), there’s just no way we get any sort of “ace” for Edgar this offseason.

    I wish I could understand the rush to make room for Yunel. Smells like a financial thing to me.

    Maybe we can get Arroyo for Vazquez for Reyes and Yunel, and this will be moot.

  52. I tend to think that the Twins would want a lot more than Renteria. Let’s see…

    Chuck James
    Tommy Hanson
    Jason Heyward

    That might do it. Maybe. Remember, the Red Sox would probably trade most of their farm system and throw in a lot of money too.

  53. neither can I but he’s expensive.

    I think we could all agree on Braves Journal that Johann Santana would make more than an adequate replacement at the top of the rotation for Smoltzie.

    I could seriously see the Braves making an enormous push for him.

  54. CSG: Did you happen to notice the disparity between Brandon Jones’ hitting LHP v RHP. Granted he has had only 7 AB’s v. LHP, but he has killed them.

  55. csg, injury prone pitchers do not post two or three consecutive 200+ innings seasons, which is something which Smoltz and Huddy will accomplish this season.

  56. Stu-

    I don’t want Yunel to replace Edgar, only if we can get a top flight starter–then it’s worth it. Otherwise, keep Edgar for 2008.


    I don’t seriously think Terry Ryan in Minnesota is that much of a moron to do Renty for Johann. I was being facetious.

    That said, I would do that package (Renty, James, Hanson & Heyward) in a second to get the BEST STARTING PITCHER IN BASEBALL.

    The other thing is if the Twins feel Francisco Liriano can come back fully and be healthy, they probably feel he can be the ace and then are even more open to the best possible offer for Santana.

  57. Alex,

    I meant the apparent front office rush to make room for Yunel, not any rush on here.

    And that’s way too much (do you realize how good a prospect Heyward is???) For one season of Johan.

  58. Stu:
    I was going to ask the same question. I thought Heyward was supposed to be the real deal Holyfield.

    Santana is awesome, but that’s a lot of talen for a year.

  59. here’s the thing thought:

    If we got Johann, I think we’d make a huge push to re-sign him.

    Yes, we are adding the huge Teixeira contract, but again, payroll is going up and the Andruw, Smoltz and Hampton contracts are all coming off the books this year & next year.

    I think you make the move if you can re-sign Johann. The opportunity to add the best starting pitcher in Baseball–it’s rare and we sure made out like bandits the last time we did that (Maddux).

  60. I think trading Renteria this offseason is a perfect ‘sell high’ situation and is probably a good idea. He’s been great this year, but after two good years in StL (2002-2003) he had two bad years (2004-2005) and I’m worried he’ll do that again. Escobar should be able to equal 2004 Renty with better defense.

    I’m also resigned to losing Andruw Jones. I can’t imagine he’ll be worth it unless he gives a HUGE discount. I think too many teams will be thinking big name, 50 HRs, GG in CF and will pay him a ton. I think he’s a bad gamble.

  61. Alex,

    Considering how Hudson pitched the first two years in Atlanta, I hope this trade doesn’t end up being too much like that one.

  62. On that note, I’d like to point out that Boras, even though he is apparently a disgusting weasel, works for his clients. If Andruw wanted to stay, he’d stay. If Texeira (crikey, did I spell that right? I hope so, because I’m not up for looking it up at the moment…) wants to stay, he’ll stay. Boras goes for the big dollar when his clients tell him to. Of course, as far as I can tell, his primary value as an agent is his superior negotiating skill, so I’d guess most of his clients are looking to get top dollar.

    That won’t always be the case, though.

  63. #75 – Boras of course will do what his clients want, but the fact that a player has hired Boras indicates that the player wants top dollar over anything else. There are exceptions, like Andruw’s last contract. Andruw’s got a chance to cash in big this offseason, and I don’t think he’ll turn it down.

  64. Alex, I disagree with you that imagining Johan Santana on the Braves is like imagining Jessica Biel naked. Biel’s a gorgeous woman, but I don’t think she’s the most beautiful woman in the world. Santana’s clearly the best pitcher in the world. My analogy for imagining him on the Braves is more like imagining Rebecca Romijn, Heidi Klum, and Laetitia Casta naked–all at the same time.

    I don’t think you’re completely off base, just wanted to set the record straight.

  65. There aren’t a whole lot of teams that have a spare ace to deal away for a SS, and even if someone did, I don’t think it would happen. So Renty will most likely be moved for a position player, or multiple prospects.

  66. Folks, no one is going to trade us a Harang level pitcher for Renteria. That’s just silly.

  67. #79 is 100% correct. It probably would have taken Salty, Renty, and two pitching prospects to get Harang.

  68. AAR,

    You are making it very difficult to read this blog!

    I can’t see how trading Renty would bring a high-end starter. No contender is going to trade an ace and any non-contender would probably not trade an ace pitcher for a 32-year old shortstop. Unless you can find a team that REALLY needs a shortstop, I don’t see what the fit is. Oh yes, the Red Sox probably need one–what do you think?

    The only way you would get a pitcher like that would be to trade high-end prospects.

  69. Hey folks,
    Excuse my ignorance, but what is “DOB?” I see people reference it all the time on this site.

  70. I wonder if they could have traded Renteria for Snell. Littlefield is such an idiot, we probably could have gotten him to throw in Marte as well

  71. kc, good point, but two trips for Smoltz and two years out of baseball for Hampton makes them injury prone in my opinion

  72. Yes–all three of them.

    I have a feeling the Braves fans maybe too focused on Teixeira.

    Watch Bobby start Julio tonight just to annoy us.

  73. Its going to be an exciting time for the next two months as an Alabama fan and Braves fan.

    And and it makes little sense in my mind to hit KJ 8th especially with his patience at the plate, we don’t need too many walks with the pitcher on deck. Enough with the Willie Harris leading off, either he or Diaz should be hitting 8th.

    My lineup:

    C. Jones
    A. Jones

    And Johnson should play everyday, too…save Escobar as a pinch-hitter/late-inning defensive replacement.

  74. I don’t know how exciting this year will be for Alabama fans, but it should get better sooner than later.

  75. Are you talking about Star Jackson? He’s from Fla but never had offer from FLA, FLA State, or Miami. He hasn’t committed to anyone yet but is considered a bama lean.

  76. Well, we’re facing a lefty tonight, so the lineup should be:


    It will be:

    If we’re lucky. I wouldn’t be shocked if he batted Andruw fourth and Diaz seventh or something.

    Also, I’m expecting Franco to get one start a week because Cox won’t be able to help himself. I hope I’m wrong, but watch it. I guarantee you Tex won’t start every game he’s healthy the rest of the year.

  77. Nick there is no reason to put Franco in when Tex is a switch hitter and he’s only 27. I’d be shocked to see Franco in there as a starter agian unless injury or doubleheader…

  78. Franco better not get the nod more than once a month. There is no reason to play him unless Tex passes out frome exhaustion.

  79. CSG: Having Farns back would have been awful. He’s like a cancer . . . or Barry Bonds.

  80. I’m not expecting big things from Alabama, just ready for the atmosphere in the fall and the great games we have this year…Alabama football in general, that is.

  81. We’ll see. I hope you all are right. Maybe since he’ll probably become our No. 1 pinch hitter (especially when Diaz is in the lineup), he’ll have enought at-bats.

    I guess assumedly Franco does still know how to play second base. If we really wanted to get him at-bats, I’m sure we could find somewhere for him.

  82. I am curious as to who will be closing games. If JS wanted to swap Wickman, will Dotel be used as closer immediately, or does Wickman just survive on a very short leash? I have not seen Cox make a statement as to the usage for Dotel–has anyone else seen anything?

  83. csg,

    That failed rumor No. 1 is pretty funny. It would have been interesting to see which one of the trio would’ve taken the closer job had we done that.

    I notice that our proposed Arroyo deal wasn’t on there, so I guess that we weren’t really all that close to doing that. Maybe they wanted something on top of Escobar and Reyes.

    The only deal on there that would’ve really made a whole lot of sense is the Gagne to Milwaukee trade. He really could’ve helped them, I think, and it would’ve given them a boost. Oh well, maybe that walk-off HR last night will give them one.

  84. That failed rumor seems bogus. I just don’t want to believe that it was “close” to happening.

  85. I think the problem with Dotel closing games is that he’s traditionally been better in a setup role. So I would definitely guess that Wickman is still the closer for now.

    The real question is: If we demote Wickman, does Dotel or Soriano become the closer? Since Soriano will likely be the closer next year anyway and given the above on Dotel, I wouldn’t be surprised if they would move Soriano up.

  86. That thought occurs that if we still wanted to do that Wickman for Farnsworth deal (not that we do), we probably still could.

    There’s a very real possibility that those two could both clear waivers.

  87. I think Wickman is the closer until he utterly fails. Bobby isn’t going to change horses in midstream, especially since Soriano has been struggling himself and Dotel has never had great success as a closer.

    As for Santana, let’s be real, isn’t it more likely that he ends up as a Yankee, Red Sox, Dodger or Angel? It’s a nice dream but I doubt that Liberty is increasing the payroll that much. If you keep both Teixera and Santana, you are talking about Red Sox payroll territory there.

    As for Renteria, if the idea is that the Braves are going for it for the next two years (counting this year), why would you trade Renteria this offseason? Even accepting that he won’t hit .330 again, he has always been a good hitter and there is no reason to think he can’t hit near .300 again. Escobar hasn’t convinced me that he can hit in the big leagues and certainly not with Renteria’s pop. What’s the point of trading high if you end up with a hole in the lineup? I guess I would do it if we could get a very high-end pitcher, but what position player do we need now that would justify trading Renty? The only possible need I see is left field. Or more importantly, who would be available?

  88. Jessica Biel naked? Hmm, is it in person and just me, then I got to go with her. But if it is Santana and Biel in a magazine, then I am going to call it a toss up.

  89. Can we not put Wickman on waivers? If someone takes him then we have what 48 hrs to trade him or keep him. Sounds like a good idea to me

  90. csg,

    You can just pull him back with no harm done.


    This thread is going to bring a very different sort of Google searcher traffic today, I’d guess.

  91. Look, Bama football, whatever the record is this year, is on an upswing just from trading in a Yugo version of a coach for a Rolls Royce.

    As bad as Blob Wickman has been at times, I would have been thoroughly sickened, disgusted and dismayed if JS had brought Farnsworth back. I don’t care if Farnsworth had 18 saves and a 1.00 ERA, I don’t ever want to see his sickening face in a Braves uni again.

    That man dissed the Braves hard when he took similar $ for a lesser role with the Yanks. (and the $ was only slightly better by NY but if you factor cost of living, the Braves had the better offer to him) and I don’t want that guy anywhere near the Braves.

  92. Marc,

    You must have missed the part earlier where I said that over the next 2 seasons, we will be shedding Smoltz, Andruw and Hamtpon’s contracts.

    With those 3 huge contracts coming off the books + the increased payroll, we can more than afford both Johann and Tex.

  93. What moves are going to be made to make our roster get down to 25 with these new additions. Remember besides Dotel we got King and Mahay. Which pitchers get the shaft? What will our 25 man roster look like?

  94. AAR,

    I just can’t stomach guys who insult my teams–the thought of Farnsworth or Kenny Lofton ever in Braves uniform again would be enough to end my allegiance. Seriously.

  95. Alex,

    Barring discounts, both of those guys will command close to or more than $20 million per season. Marc’s right. (And doesn’t Smoltz have a 2009 option? I could be making that up.)

  96. I haven’t seen anyone mention this, so I guess I’ll post it. DOB says Ascanio is going down, so that answers half of that question:

    They only sent down Paronto because he’s one of the few guys with options down in the ‘pen. Wickman, Yates don’t have them. Villarreal does, but is the long man. Ascanio will be sent down today.

    I agree _ Paronto didn’t deserve to be sent down. But you can’t send down Yates or you lose him, for certain, to a team that wants a guy with an arm like that. Paronto will be back soon enough, count on it.

    I’m really not sure how Paronto gets back soon given everybody we have now, but that’s alright. Maybe when we go to the 40-man roster.

  97. No matter how much Braves fans detest Kyle Farnsworth, it’s only a fraction of how much the Yankee players, brass & fans hate him now.

    Not only has he pitched poorly in every situation Torre has given him, he’s managed to show up both Torre & Posdada on the mound in a very demonstrable fashion. He’s also complained publicly and repeatedly about how Torre has used him, although he’s failed in role he’s been given.

    I was at the game last night—a homer-filled Yankee party that had fans giddy. As soon as Farnsworth was announced, the party turned sour & he got the booing of his life.

    Along with Igawa, Farnsworth is one of Cashman’s worst moves. And, unless they eat his salary this year & next, they’re stuck with the bum.

    I don’t blame him for taking the money, but I damn-sure don’t miss him.

  98. Charlie,

    Several of us (with Bobby’s bullpen abuse tendencies) are hoping the Braves keep 8 relievers but I doubt they will do that.

    The 7 as of tonight:

    Wickman, Dotel, Mahay, Moylan, Yates, Villareal & Soriano.

    On the outs:

    Paronto, Ring, & Ascancio – all in Richmond?

  99. Alex,

    What you say is true, but you will still be competing with the Yankees, Red Sox, Dodgers, and, probably Angels. That’s going to be difficult. Even after shedding those contracts, it’s still going to be hard to match them. You can’t replace 3 players with 1. The Braves will still not be able to match those teams, IMO, unless Santana decides he suddenly wants to pitch in the south.

  100. Look at the Braves fans…already deconstructing the team for next year and beyond.

    Two thoughts…KJ should not bat lead-off. If you put in the lead-off spot you take away his aggressiveness. I don’t care about walks when you can swing the bat like KJ. As long as Harris or Escobar are getting on base…leave them there. If they really start to struggle, then I can see putting him back in the leadoff spot.

    Someone said it earlier, but no is trading an ace for Edgar Renteria. And I do agree that he probably will be gone in the offseason, bc the Braves’ brass is really high on Escobar.

  101. Now is not the time to waive Wickman–jeez, the Braves need all of the good arms they have, and Wickman is not the problem.

    I think if JS was willing to take Farnsworth back, the slight against Atlanta was not as serious as you guys are making it out to be. It’s JS who deals personally with these guys (And/or their agents), so the person who should have been “disgusted” with Farnsworth was willing to take him back.

  102. ububba,

    The sad part for that moron Farnsworth, that classless, moronic loser that he is–if he had just taken the Braves very nic e2 yr. offer, he’d still be our closer and probably pitching better and well liked.

    But like so may others, he falls in love with playing for the Yankees like they are the cocaine’d up stripper and leaves the Braves, the pretty and nice loyal girlfriend.

    He’s getting what he deserves in spades.

  103. The Only way we keep tex and get Santana is if the payroll goes to 125Million or higher. Does anyone here really believe that Liberty will raise it that much. I can believe 100 Mil but not much more. I think we are all experiencing a little bit of a high after the thrilling last couple days.

  104. Ascanio going down was probably what we all expected. This still leaves the far more compelling Woodward vs. Thorman DFA derby, which we have no word on yet.

  105. Alex R,

    Not going to lie…I would take the “cocaine’d stripper” myself. It’s the DAMN Yankees…lol

  106. Sorry, King, I thoroughly disagree.

    I have a very good memory (ask my family) & Farnsworth talked about how cool NY is next to Atlanta (apparently, Andruw never took him the Gold Club) & he basically scoffed at the Braves.

    Again, he left the pretty girlfriend for the coke’d up stripper. Great choice there, genius.

  107. Ububba, true about Farns and Igawa. I think Cashman has been a good GM for the Yankees, albeit hampered by some of Steinbrenner’s worse tendencies, but he’s seriously not good at evaluating whether someone will crack under the pressure of NYC. The minor leaguers they’ve brought up — Cano, Cabrera, Wang, even Shelley Duncan — have all outperformed expectations, while many if not most of his free agents have disappointed, probably because of the pressure of playing in New York for the Boss.

    Kei Igawa was better than Daisuke Matsuzaka last year. Who’d have thunk he’d be a worse version of Kaz Ishii?

  108. Alex R,

    As a fan…I like the Braves. As a player…The Yankees, Red Sox, Cubs, Orioles, Cards and Dodgers would be up there. Nothing against the Braves, just don’t like the city of Atlanta.

  109. It had nothing to do with the team and everything to do with money. Kyle’s just not bright enough to realize that the extra $2MM doesn’t go very far in NYC. Or that he’s clearly a prime candidate to self-destruct under the bright lights.

    That said—and I know I’m in the minority—i wouldn’t mind having him back on someone else’s dime.

  110. Heh.

    I’d be happy with a solid, middle-of-the-rotation innings-eater type for Renteria this off-season. Maybe something along the lines of the Garland deal can be worked out still. Even a #3 guy makes our rotation worlds better. And there’s always the 2/100 chance that Hampton does something besides rehab. Man, that would be a very good rotation.

    CF does concern me quite a bit. I still say Salty for Chris B Young would have been an excellent deal; Arizona needs to lose an OF with Justin Upton coming up to play CF.

    But oh well. Guess we’ll just cross that bridge when we come to it.

  111. If I were a baseball player, I’m not sure I’d want to play for the Yankees. All the bullshit floating around that organization and if you don’t perform, you’re reviled. Many a player’s careers have ended because they couldn’t handle the constant soul-sucking pressure.

    I guess maybe if I were a superstar type player, I would be tempted, so I guess I can see Sheffield wanting to go, but even he and other such players (A-Rod, Giambi, etc.) have folded under the pressure. If I were a bit player like Farnsworth or Steve Karsay or any of the other players who’ve left us for the Yankees who fit that bill, I would stay far far away. It’s a complete no-win situation. If you succeed, no one will give you credit because you’re a bit player, and if you fail, someone could be finding your body (or at the very least your career) floating face down in the East River.

    I’ve never truly understood the overwhelming desire of every player in baseball seemingly to play for the Yankees.

  112. AAR,

    Shelley Duncan hit a bomb last night, bounced off the LF bullpen fence. If nothing else, he could be this year’s Shane Spencer.

    There’s a long history of veteran guys who have come to The Bronx & coughed it up—from Ed Whitson to Hideki Irabu.

    While Cashman has been spotty on some guys, he is hanging onto the bad-ass minor-league pitchers Hughes, Chamberlain & Kennedy. They could’ve had Teixeira, but Cashman wouldn’t budge on Chamberlain, or even a couple of the other low-minors guys.

    Worked out well for the Braves, I say.

  113. Gee–does anyone else in here feel like Tony?

    I am a Braves fan–I HATE the Red Sox, I HATE the Yankees, I HATE the Cardinals.

    So, my dream scenario would be to play for my FAVORITE TEAM, the BRAVES.

    This is BRAVES Journal. Not RED SOX Journal, Tony.

    Now I am disgusted.

  114. Comparing Farnsworth to Glavine is something I thoroughly and strongly disagree with on so many levels. I am not going to going to even get that fire started again but I would have been happy to welcome a class guy like Glavine back, who’s going to the Hall as a Brave.

    Farnsworth has zero class.

  115. Well, that’s a tough one for me, JoshQ. I’m convinced Kyle would be the better pitcher for us, but he’s also crazy, whereas Wick is a glue guy. I’d probably take Wickman, but I wouldn’t have been broken up if the reported trade had gone down.

  116. Alex,

    I am with you, I am a Braves fan and would want to play for the Braves. I also think what the Braves have done for baseball in the South is why so many people grow up wanting to play for the Braves.

    #140 comparing Glavine to Farnsworth is way out of line. I am not exactly hoping Glavine gets 300 anytime soon, as the Braves need the Mets to lose as much as possible, but Farnsworth is an idiot.

  117. I was pretty much kiddng with that. I figured that would get u riled up. I’ve read ur Glavine arguments before. It does at least a little similar however.

  118. “All about money, ain’t a damn thing funny.”

    Farnsworth is from Atlanta, but the Yanks ponied up stupid dollars, like they did with Chris Hammond. What are you gonna do?

    I don’t disagree with you that Farns could actually be useful for Atlanta, esp. if Gen. Steinbrenner’s cutting the checks.

    I just don’t like the guy & don’t wanna have to root for him.

    I must say that his body language is amazing when he’s on the mound at Yankee Stadium. He is Nuke LaLoosh.

  119. I really don’t see why everyone says cox abuses the bullpen so much. Sure he doesn’t always make the right call and bring in the wrong reliever at times, but abusing them – c’mon. If anybody is abusing our relievers, it is our #3 through #5 starters. When was the last time we got a quality start from one of them? Get them to pitch 6 or 7 innings and our bullpen is rested plenty. Now, seeing as how that is probably not going to happen – we probably do need 8 relievers, but you can’t necessarily blame it on Cox.

  120. i’m still quite excited about getting tex (tex in a braves uniform bumped my 3month old son for the background pic on my laptop. which was only made possible by he and my wife going home to richmond today — with a good luck layover in atlanta). but some of you are already trying to figure out payroll in order to keep santana after the braves trade for him for a year. ummm… riiiiiiiiiiiight. take a deep breath.

    go bravos.

  121. Tony,

    I am curious–if you like the Yankees so much, why are you “gracing us” with your presence in Braves Journal?

    I find your love of the Yankees to be in complete contradiction with wanting to be on BRAVES journal talking about the BRAVES since we are BRAVES fans.

    And Yes, Tony, it IS the Yankees—which is exactly why any self respecting BRAVES fan wouldn’t want to play for them.

    I have a lot of things I would love to shout at your right now–you’re really pissing me off royally, but I want to continue to enjoy my Teixeira high.

  122. Josh,

    I am a big fan of Cox, and you make a valid point about the number of innings we are getting from our 3-5 starters; however, there are plenty of times where the game has been decided one way or another and yet he will bring in Soriano, Wickman, or Moylan when it is completely unnecessary.

    There have been several times where the game is a blowout and one of the aformentioned relievers will have just worked previously and yet Cox will throw them out there again. He will do this even though we will have relivers that could use the experience or work (i.e. Devine).

  123. Alex,

    Like many of us on here…I am a Braves due to TBS. As far as the South or Georgia…not too much concerned about that. My 1st line-up I can remember:

    Claudell Washington
    Rafael Ramirez
    Dale Murphy
    Bob Horner
    Terry Harper
    Ken Oberkfell
    Bruce Benedict
    Glen Hubbard
    Rick Mahler

    Those were the days. Anyway I’m not a Yankee’s fan or Red Sox fans, just saying if I was a player….

  124. And that’s generally the answer I get when I say that, and it only furthers to enhance my lack of understanding.

    It was an absolute no-win situation for Farnsworth, Karsay and Hammond to go to the Yankees. All of their careers were very likely to take a downturn by doing it. Plus they now have to put with all the crap and drama surrounding the Yankees and all the vociferous media coverage, etc.

    But how could anyone not want to endure the end of their career and a constant two-year migraine when the reward is playing for the Yankees?

    If you want to experience the prestige or whatever, buy a ticket and take a stroll through Monument Park or something. I’m pretty sure that Kyle Farnsworth isn’t feeling a whole hell of a lot of goosebumps over playing for the Yankees right now.

  125. Nick,

    I seriously doubt any professional athlete believes they themselves will be unsuccessful. I think you need a certain amount of coinfidence to be a professional player. You never think it is going to be you who will be unsuccesful in New York.

  126. Nick,

    I seriously doubt any professional athlete believes they themselves will be unsuccessful. I think you need a certain amount of coinfidence to be a professional player. You never think it is going to be you who will be unsuccesful in New York.

  127. Excellent point Kenny. All pro athletes have tremendous egos. Hell I’m just a recreational athlete and I have a nice size ego.

  128. I think I’d be a nice fit in St. Louis, I’m white and I can hustle…so I would be unquestionably beloved. Cardinals nation was so excited about acquiring Adam Kennedy and getting rid of Belliard, even though Kennedy posseses the same skill set but is white.

  129. If I were a professional athlete (and if we were totally ignoring the fact that I’m a Braves fan and thus would want to play for them), I would want to be in the place where I would be most likely to succeed as a player. There are very few players for whom the Yankees are that team.

    And even if I were old and in “trying to win a championship before I retire mode”, are the Yankees really the most likely team to win a championship nowadays?

  130. Nick,

    It’s money, man. That’s the story. Why would anyone take dramatically less to play in a “nice town”?

    Also, don’t forget that there’s another side to New York sports. And that is: When you succeed here, there is absolutely nothing like it.

    Ask Joe Namath. Ask Mark Messier. Ask Paul O’Neill. Hell, ask Luis Sojo.

  131. 154 — ahhh… that’s a fun lineup from yesteryear. sounds like the one i started with as a braves fan in southern va (only reason i was a braves fan was because i got to see dale murphy play everyday on tbs).

  132. Well, I can’t say for the rest of you, but I’m a fan because I was born in Alpharetta and it’s who I grew up watching. I’m on the journal cause I moved up to Kansas City, and it’s good to shoot the s$*# with fellow Braves fans, cause there aren’t as many where I’m living. I’d definitely take a pay cut to play in Atl. I mean, how many millions does it take? Plus, it’s my home town.

    I am stoked though cause I was flying down for the weekend and had tickets to Friday’s and Saturday’s games. I haven’t seen a Braves game since last season and I’m ready to go nuts now, especially with the new pickups. (Though it is a little weird cause I saw Dotel pitch this past Saturday)

  133. Kenny,
    I agree with you and believe that Cox does use them wrong at times. I was just saying that most people are forgetting the MAIN reason we have a tired bullpen – and that reason is not Cox.

  134. I guess my assumption is, if you are a Braves fan, you’d want to play for the Braves. Gee, I guess that’s just stupid.

    I grew up in Savannah and went to UGA, so my regional bias is not in doubt. (though now live in Northern Virginia).

    But if you grew up a Braves fan, whevere you were, you’d think you wantred to play for the Braves.


    You’re in Kansas City? Well, you must be “thrilled” that you will now get to see Kyle Davies pitch live ;-)

  135. if i’m already making millions, then i’d take a little less to play somewhere where i wanted to be or on a team with my friends or something of that sort.

    but maybe that’s because i get paid scraps working for a public university (which is on the low end for paying student instructors even for public universities) as a grad student. hard to say what i’d do when the millions were flying… but, of course, i’d like to think some things would still be more important to me than money (considering that i study italian literature… i think that’s a given).

  136. alex r… where are you in NOVA?

    i got my masters at UVa (even though i’m a VT fan). my family jokes that above where i-64 runs through charlottesville and richmond there are nothing but yankees. heh heh.

  137. Ethan,

    If there are any positives to be said about Kansas City it would have to be Dayton Moore. I really think they have a terrific GM in Dayton Moore who is going to help raise the talent level that they currently have.

    I hope that whenever Schuerholtz retires the Braves pursue Dayton.

  138. I echo Murphy’s sentiments.

    And as far as it being great when you succeed in New York, that is true. But you have to ask yourself how likely middle relievers are to be lauded in that fashion, even if they pitch great. I mean, are there a bunch of people running around up there constantly talking about how great Jeff Nelson was?

  139. Yeah, I’ve really been impressed with dayton so far and the team has been a lot better. Of course it helps when you get the first or second draft pick in every round and you stole Piccolo from the Braves. But he’s made some good trades. (ie Bannister for Burgos). Plus, the Meche signing that he got roasted for is looking pretty good now.

    I am curious to see how Davies will do without any pressure and the knowledge he won’t be yanked out of the rotation if he makes a bad start. He’ll probably still suck, but you never know; stranger things have happened.

  140. ububba – you may be best to answer this since you see the Yankees more than anyone else, but what has happened to Farnsworth this year? His strike out numbers have really fallen since last year, and he’s walking more people.

  141. Ethan, while I was being sarcastic about Davies, it will be interesting how he does without any pressure. I agree about Dayton Moore and he didn’t deserve the roasting he took on the meche signing–Meche has worked very hard to live up to that contract.


    I live in Alexandria and work in downtown DC near the White House…near either area?

  142. Davies may get better because there isn’t much pressue in KC; but if he can’t thrive under pressure, I don’t want him. It’s all about the playoffs baby! …and benjamins

  143. Before Steinbrenner came along and ruined that franchise, playing in the Yankee pinstripes meant a hell of a lot more than it does now. It’s now more of a reason to take more money, but it use to be something.

  144. KLB,

    Farnsworth seems to have an averse reaction to the notion of Strike 1.

    As objectionable as Steinbrenner is to many people, even many Yankee fans, the team has won 6 World Series & 10 pennants since he’s owned the team. That’s what Yankee fans want & expect. He’s hardly ruined the franchise.

  145. The Yankees were in some ways much more obnoxious before Steinbrenner took over. During their glory days, the team was known for its corporate mentality (the saying used to be “rooting for the Yankees is like rooting for U.S. Steel” when that used to mean something for those of you too young to remember) and the management was known to be arrogant and racist. So, in a lot of ways, Steinbrenner has made things better. Of course, I guess this plays into the notion here that the Yankees have always sucked. As far as playing for your favorite team, yeah, I would want to play for the Braves, but very few players get to play for one team (much less their favorite) their whole careers. Frankly, if you are really a baseball fan, as opposed to just a Braves fan, how can you not respect the Yankee history (aside from their management.)

  146. Ububba,

    I was speaking more in terms of how he treats his personnel, and the image it has created in public perception, but you bring up a good point.

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