ESPN – Cardinals vs. Braves Box Score, July 19 2007 – MLB
Bow to the power of Julio! Back in the lineup and playing first base in his first day back in an Atlanta uniform, Franco didn’t actually do that much — 1-3 with a walk, the Braves’ last two RBI of the game — but maybe everyone was so happy to see him they bust out the real bats. Or not, who knows. I’ll take it.
Andruw opened the scoring by homering with two out and Chipper on base in the first. Diaz added a solo homer in the second, and Francoeur and Diaz had RBI singles in the third to make it 5-0. Now, I am not a certified genius like Tony LaRussa, but I figure, 5-0, the Braves’ bullpen has been struggling, I get my pitcher out of there and preserve a chance of victory. Instead, Tony’s giant brain reached the conclusion that the game was over and he left Mike Maroth out there, and Maroth gave up five runs in the fourth. Andruw singled in Renteria, Francoeur singled in Chipper, Diaz doubled in Andruw, and Julio capped it with an RBI single. 10-0, drive home safely.
Tim Hudson didn’t have to pitch too hard, is what I’m saying. He went seven, gave up one run in the sixth, struck out three, walked one, and needed 93 pitches. Moylan gave up a couple of hits in the eighth and Fredo Ledezma, whose passport finally dried out or something and is back with the team, walked the leadoff man but that was it in the ninth. To make room for Julio and Fredo, Davies and Ascanio were sent down, and about time.
The Braves had “only” 12 hits this time. Diaz had three, missing the cycle by the triple. Andruw and Chipper were each 2-3 with a walk and three runs scored. Except for the RBI, it looks like they accidentally listed “Jones” twice.
Sí, el poder de Julio es muy fuerte.
Julio getting a hit is’ great. 🙂
Mets up 6-2 after 1
Now what? It can’t still be “Davies delenda est” can it? Have we finally run out of Atlanta Braves to dislike?
Dan, we still have Woodward.
Yes, I think Woodward is a fine place to continue the delenda est. After that I might vote for the 3b coach, although he hasn’t done anything too stupid for a while.
And if all else fails, there’s the NY Mets; they are certainly worthy of delenda est.
Mets lead LA 6-4 in the 2nd. Glavine on the mound.
Derek Lowe sucks ass.
Jeremy-
Don’t tell that to Andruw! 😀
Mets have to be worried about Glavine and his 4.51 era. They give him 9 runs in three innings and he cant finish it
2IP 10H 6ER
Tommy is two wins away from 300, maybe he is getting too anxious.
How long before it becomes Julio delenda est ?
Gotta love those games where it’s never in doubt. Just sit back & enjoy.
Godot,
Never, because we don’t expect much and whoever replaces him, if he gets REALLY REALLY bad, will be tagged with “delenda est” too.
Wait *laughs*
I’d never do Franco delenda est. I don’t know whether or not he’ll be tagged by Mac, but if he is, he’ll just be replaced with Woodward, or his replacement, like Prado.
I’ve been away from computers for two weeks and would love somebody if they would bring me up to speed on “delenda est” and who it has applied to. I know no Spanish, or Latin, beyond the ablative. Thanks in advance.
I’ll be going to Monday, Tues, and Wed Nite’s games in SF. Any other SF-locals on bravesjournal?
if so – shoot me an email at
matthewregister at gmail dot com and maybe we can grab a beer in the right field arcade as we snab 756.
Andruw’s all the way up to .220…and somewhere Scott Boras is drooling.
With Bonds now two homers away form Hank, I’m really terrified he breaks the record against us. He should just be intentionally walked each at-bat, no matter what, if he’s at 754 or 755 when we get to town. It would be truely terrible to have Hank’s record broken against us.
@17,
Mac has reminded us of the kind of classic studies people used to learn in school. “____ delenda est” is Latin for ____ must be destroyed from a Roman Senator’s crusade to destroy Carthage. I believe it first appeared in April in association with Ryan Langerhans.
The phrase has preceded the downfall of many. All power to Mac and the might Braves Journal.
Andruw’s OPS (.758) is now higher than Frenchy’s (.756).
Why Woodward when Thorman is still on the roster?
My new favorite Braves Minor Leaguer, Cole Rohrbough. This is his stat line:
ERA IP H BB SO AVG
0.71 25.1 19 6 42 .204
I know that he is at Danville, but those numbers you rack up playing the old school Nintendo.
So Bonds may break the record either in Milwaukee, Aaron’s old city, or against the Braves, Aaron’s old team.
Re: #18
Charles,
My girlfriend and I will be driving down from South Lake Tahoe to catch Wednesday and Thursday’s games. She bought the tickets last night, so I’ll let you know where we’re sitting.
If Bonds breaks Aaron’s record at either game, I promise to remain seated as a form of protest.
By the way, Selig is an idiot. He is the commissioner and it is his responsibility to be at the record breaking game. He was in charge during the steroid era so this is his baby. Instead he want to pretend until the last moment that this is not reality.
Looks like the Cuban Assassin forgot his bullets last night.
JoshQ,
I am not exactly sure its his responsibility to attend. He should though, in the interest of supporting Major League Baseball(for which he oversees), be there.
Matt Morris update. His ERA has risen over the last 6 games from 2.56 to 4.08. I think we can all finally agree that he is not going to be the answer. Let’s let this rumor die.
I just think for better or worse, he is the man at the top of the food chain in MLB and the responsibility falls on his shoulders.
By the way, where did the Cuban Assassin moniker come from? Did Tony make that up or was it heard somewhere else? Just curious.
In case you didn’t know/had forgotten, Bowie Kuhn wasn’t at the game when Hank set the record.
New poll.
That’s interesting Mac…I just get the feeling Bud is waffling about coming because he is still hiding under his desk and pretending steroids didn’t happen.
Put me in the “walk Bonds intentionally every time” camp. I don’t want to get into arguments about whose fault (Bonds, Selig, Ronald McDonald, etc) it is that Bonds is in this position…. I just don’t want to see it happen, especially against Atlanta.
Didn’t an old school manager intentionally walk Strawberry like 5 times in one game in spring training in the 90s? Something about him not wanting cokeheads in baseball? I think it was either Leyland or Sparky Anderson or something.
Here’s me crossing my fingers that Bonds get a non-life threatening injury that makes him retire from baseball. I’d throw a party.
JoshQ – it’s good to see (at least from this posters vantage) that some people can still recognize steroids have as much to do with Selig, team owners and fans just as much as the players (Bonds and anyone else for that matter.)
Given what seems a visable Bonds hatred around here, I can appreciate someone standing against the tide, which I have done quite a lot since 1998.
However, I really don’t think it matters at all whether Selig is there when Bonds breaks the record, anymore than it matters if Hank himself is there. No one will recall WHO was at the game after it happens – only that Bonds broke the record.
I’m past that stage jtothemaxx. To me it is a foregone conclusion that he will break the record in the next 10 days. I think I’m entering the acceptance stage. Denial is so last year. 🙂
My feelings about Bonds don’t have much to do with the steroids. He appears to be just an overall asshole and this comes not from just the media but from having been told of a Bonds episode at Walter Reed hospital. He’s a pretty rotten human being.
The steroids are irrelevant. Bonds was a fabulous player before the steroids–arguably a more complete player. Steroids might contribute to strength, but they don’t improve your hand/eye coordination. And listening to the sanctimoniousness of some of the old time players is humorous considering the well-documented used of greenies during the 50s and 60s. How many of these guys would have refused to use steroids if they had been available. It’s ridiculous to pretend that steroids are the only reason Bonds is breaking the record.
I just don’t care about Bonds breaking the record. The thing about records like this (or, say, career receptions in football)is that they are so context-dependent. Aaron played in a much more difficult home run era and Milwaukee was not known as an especially easy place to hit homers. Willie Mays played most of his career in a park that killed right-handed hitters because of the wind. So what’s more impressive, hitting 70 homers in the 90s or hitting 52 homers (as Mays did) in 1965? Same with the career home runs. Increasingly, home run records mean nothing; A-Rod will probably end up with 800. So what? Not to take anything away from these guys, but it’s a different game. I am much more interested in the Braves winning games than I am in records. Now, if a pitcher were to win 30 games, that would get me excited.
Mac, the fact that Bowie wasn’t there for Hank’s record-breaker is all the more reason that Bud Selig should be there. Bowie Kuhn, for all the youngsters on the board, was a REAL asshole. He created the DH, treated people terribly, thought extremely highly of himself, and was generally a pompous jerk.
You know, I dont mind admitting when I’m wrong. I was one of the ones saying we should get Maroth from the Tigers since the price was so cheap, but now we all see why. He sucks and they can keep him and his 8.17 era after 5 starts!!
http://msn.foxsports.com/rumors/mlb
Today’s Rumors
Mets – Sammy Sosa, Cordero, Contreras, and Pedro shoulder is sore
Braves – Tex, Arroyo, Franco coming in, and Davies back to AAA
CSG, I’m right there with you. I thought we should get Maroth too, and I even defended the Redman signing.
So, yes, I’m an idiot.
Ill admit I was never pumped about Redman, there was too much talk of him being an allstar with an Era over 5 for me to get excited. I really didnt understand not getting Maroth, now I do
I also think we should be pitching to Barry and not walking him. He was in last place in batting average over the past month before yesterday. Make them beat us, dont give them anything
I guess Maroth is the one person who proves that anybody who goes from the superior AL to the NL will be a much better pitcher. Myth busted!
Hey, what’s with all this self-accountability all of a sudden, guys? I was beginning to think that ignoring inconvenient evidence was the official modus operandi around here! 🙂
If steroids didn’t help Bonds hit the last big chunk of his 753 HRs then maybe I should just insert my head in the sand.
They helped. A lot.
Three pieces of evidence: 1, nobody in the history of baseball has improved that dramatically at his age; 2, um, 73 HRs; 3, anybody read the BALCO book? It’s all there. He began to use right around the time he started hitting scads of HRs, more than he’d ever hit (save 1993). If they didn’t help, why was Bonds so psycho using about them?
(And this idea that he “just thought they helped”…please, give that one to the tourists. I can’t abide that.)
I’m not saying he wasn’t a HoF-calibre player before he discovered steroids—he was without question one of the greatest players of our generation, maybe the best; I’m just saying that I find it rather unbelievable to contend that that they didn’t help. Take a guy that good, give him steroids and voila! You have off-the-charts, immortal feats.
In a perverse way, I hope he does break the records against Atlanta. (On a 9th inning solo shot off Chad Paronto that makes the game 10-1 Braves.) What will the national conversation be like then?
csg – I can certainly agree with that. In fact, by the sound of it, Barry is hurting badly right now and may just have enough in him to break the record before he completely collapses.
I’ve moved off my position of not trading Salty. If he can net us what it would take to get into the playoffs and make a run, then lets do it. The facts are that our best players are not getting younger and we should not wait for Escobar or Salty to develop if it means sacrificing a potential playoff run.
I think they helped; I don’t think they are the “reason” he hit all the homeruns or at least not the only reason. I think that they probably enabled him to maintain his strength as he aged, but that’s different than saying they were the reason he hit the home runs. What do steroids actually do other than make you stronger? They don’t improve hand/eye coordination. Hitting home runs is largely a matter of technique and hand/eye coordination; witness the fact that Mays and Aaron, for example, weren’t that big. Additional strength probably makes some balls go out that wouldn’t otherwise (or adds to how far they go), but how many? I don’t think we can answer that.
Ballplayers think lots of things that aren’t true. They think that a pitcher can actually have a “rising” fastball when that is physically impossible. Obviously, players took steroids because they perceived benefits to taking them and, certainly, they got some benefits, but it doesn’t mean that their expectations were scientifically grounded.
Marc, I think you’re splitting hairs, but whatever. I think we both agree that Bonds did steroids & they helped him break the all-time HR record. I think we both agree that it’s a foul situation & he’s a foul dude.
Oh, and here’s some red meat for you folks who love to hate Joe Morgan.
http://www.nypost.com/seven/07202007/sports/had_our_phil_of_morgan_sports_phil_mushnick.htm
All I care about is the fact that Bonds wouldn’t be about to break the record if it wasn’t for steroids. In the end that’s all the should matter.
He’s a disgrace, along with McGwire and all the other losers that juiced up. Nothing would make me happier to see their stats/records expunged or at least add an asterisk.
Ububba,
That is the perfect Joe Morgan story, it’s like he is a real life Ron Burgundy.
well if Bonds did take steriods, and we all know he did, we’ll get to see his body break down over the next 10-15 years if he lives that long. His insides are shot if he took them long enough
To clarify, I’m more along the lines of “Bonds is a prick” than “Bonds is a prick because he took steroids”. I just want to see my favorite sport well represented by likeable athletes. Not pricks like him.
When Aaron got too old to play regularly in the field, he became a DH in the American League. Bonds, on the other hand, took steroids. I find solace in the fact that his grapes have turned into raisins.
@55 – So Teddy Ballgame was all smiles and cheers? Ty Cobb shouldn’t be in the Hall? Let’s not think about John McGraw? Should we forget the phrase “Tinkers to Evers to Chance” just because they were assholes?
what a waste Giles would have been at 5.5-6 mil. “Marcus Giles has been a disappointment for the Padres, hitting .237/.309/.329 on the year. That’s really bad.” from mlb rumors
more on the Braves and Dotel
http://www.kansascity.com/sports/v-print/story/197577.html
Ty Cobb was a racist bully.
Babe Ruth was an incorrigible drunken party animal.
Barry Bonds may have taken steroids.
If character counted as the HOF criteria says it shall, is Bonds less worthy than the former HOF louts? There aren’t that many Dale Murphy-character types in the HOF, and Dale doesn’t seem to have the baseball numbers to get in.
Whatever his edge, and he has not admitted nor has it yet been proven that he had one, regardless of what we read and think; Barry Bonds will be the new all-time home run champ before August ends. His OBP and OPS are better than anyone else’s ever. He was a great defensive player and a singular offensive juggernaut. Now he’s nearing his career’s end.
Other dudes have been caught juicing and never approached his numbers. Give Barry his due. He has been one of the two or three greatest baseball players of all time.
Still, I really don’t like the dude.
Landogarner,
No! That would open a can of worms we could never close! If there is one thing I’m pertified about more than anything else, it’s erasing someone’s playing record because they did something someone else deemed “wrong”. It could be applied to anybody for just about any perceived misdeed.
The worst thing I want done is an asterisk, and I don’t like that either. I think that’s just a crutch to make other people feel better and look like they’ve defended something.
Keep the records as they are to reflect the results of the management of baseball. Bud Selig and baseball made this bed with Barry Bonds, now they have to sleep in it. When Bonds gets up and leaves, change the sheets.
You’re quicker than I, Coz. More succinct too.
There’s a difference between being a jerk or a criminal and being a cheater. Now, the problem is that for most of Bonds’ tenure taking steroids wasn’t actually against the rules.
So that’s baseball’s fault that they didn’t test for steroids and that may have bloated this era of offense a bit.
Mac – but it WAS against the law, so cheater or not, those that had them w/t a prescription were committing a crime. Regardless, it just seems to me an inconvenience for most people that Bonds is breaking the record, much as people felt about Maris during 1961. They would have much rather have had Mantle doing the great feat. But unfortunately, that ain’t how things work.
Some of the best players of all time were also jerks, cheaters and all around not nice guys. Yet we remember them (fondly or not.) The same will happen with Barry – with or without the vitriol.
Coz,
You’re right. I still stand by what I said. It would be hypocritical of baseball to put an asterisk on Bonds’s record now when they did nothing to stop any steroid abuse until recently. If Selig does put an asterisk on Bonds’s record, it would be a classic case of covering his ass.
Sam – the way I see it, it is the players fault for taking them, MLB’s fault for not saying anything about in order to reap the financial rewards, the media’s fault for not covering it until after the ’98 chase and the fans fault for not considering it much of a big deal until ESPN and Bud Selig decided it WAS a big deal. Of course, Congress stepping in and flashing the old “anti-trust exemption” card probably had a little something to do with that.
In the end, it seems blown completely out of control and Barry Bonds is apparently everyone’s popular scapegoat precisely because he was already a jerk to begin with.
And I agree re: the asterisk. 🙂
True, Mac, steroids weren’t against the rules. However, they were illegal to use without a doctor’s prescription in all 50 states and under federal law.
No, I don’t think that disqualifies him from HoF consideration. Yes, he’s a HoF player. If I had a vote, I’d vote for him. I’d also vote him into the Asshole HoF also.
I’d also vote him into the Asshole HoF also.
Sheesh, redundant much, SP?
My point is that all sorts of players have done things that are illegal (or were illegal at the time, in the case of drinking during Prohibition), and all of them are human and thus have done things that are immoral. The former is a matter for the police and courts. The latter is not a matter for human authority at all.
Baseball, however, must primarily be concerned with the integrity of the game. Cheating is worse than murder, as far as baseball is concerned.
Now, is what Bonds did cheating? Not really, because it wasn’t against the rules. Was it ethical/moral? No, it was not. However, baseball can’t put itself in position to make moral judgments except where it becomes necessary to protect the institution itself. I don’t think Bonds reaches that level.
Mac, using steroids WAS against the rules. There just wasn’t any testing for it.
Having read GAME OF SHADOWS, it’s not clear to me that Bonds’ homerun total would be dramatically lower if he had never taken steroids. The authors made a pretty convincing case that steroids were partly to blame for some of the injuries he’s had in the last few years that have caused him to miss a lot of time. If he had been able to play, the homeruns he hit would have at least partially balanced out the homeruns he wouldn’t have hit thanks to not using steroids. Also when Bonds does hit homeruns, they usually clear the fences by a large margin. A non-steroids using Bonds would be hitting 420′ homeruns instead of 440′.
If he had never used steroids, Bonds would still likely today have one of the top 5 homerun totals of all time. It’s doubtful he would have hit 73 homeruns a few years ago and he might now be at 703 or 653 instead of 753, but he’s still one of the best hitters ever. Which is not to say he’s not a cheating asshole because of course he is.
It’s a fine line. Baseball banned only illegal drugs, not steroids. Steroids are legal with a prescription. Does use of them without a prescription violate the rule? I don’t know.
I’m not sure about use, but possession w/t prescription is illegal.
if pete rose, no doubt an asshole in his own right, is thrown out of the game for gambling. why is it that Bonds and the rest of the crew who have admitted to taking steroids remain unpunished? they and their results are lies. i could careless about the record but i hate to see a guy like bonds celebrated for the achievement he didn’t earn honestly.
against the rules or not, it looks as though bonds has been juicing for about 11 years. whether he would have broken the record or not remains in question, but from season 96-04 he hit 411 homeruns. thats approximately 46 homeruns per year. this means his average per year during that period was the same as his career high the previous 10 years. steroids did help him. they helped the singles become doubles, the doubles becomes homeruns, and the homeruns become MASSIVE homeruns. his “hand-eye” coordination didnt get any better. pitchers stopped pitching to him, thus walks going up and strikeouts going down. i was just doing a study on this and check this out.
During the years of ’86-’95, only one time did bond’s extra base hits add up to be more than 50% of his total hits. since then, bonds has had 7 years that his extra base hits were more than 50% of his total hits. that is not just coincidence.
It all boils down to a moral issue. Sure, what he did wasnt “illeagal” but its wrong. He can have the home run record, but most, if not all baseball fans will see that mental asterik next to his name. He’ll kinda be like OJ Simpson, he’ll get away with it, but it will haunt him and follow him for the rest of his life.
beedee – For Rose the answer is simple – the rule he broke is posted on every clubhouse wall. This was not so for steroids and Bonds has NEVER admitted doing them, nor has he ever tested positive while MLB has been drug testing (that we are aware of, at least.)
And if you want to make sure all records are “fair” and “honest”, you’d have to go through the books and look at each and every one. Cheating has been a part of baseball in some form or another since the very beginning, and both pitchers and batters.
TSS: that’s fine. How it should be.
Ryan, almost every player has more extra base hits relative to hits as he ages; this doesn’t demonstrate anything. It’s the normal aging pattern.
Beedee, that’s the wrong way of looking at things. Rose gambled, and association with gamblers is a much bigger no-no than even cheating in a game. It leads — will inevitably lead — to game-fixing, which is the biggest crime in baseball, and has to be. I don’t think he should have gotten a lifetime ban, but a big one was appropriate.
I will also add that Rose probably holds the all-time record for amphetamine use.
Off-topic again: I wonder if the Cradinals are shopping Anthony Reyes? He seems to need a “Change of scenery,” and he’s a strong talent. Perhaps the Cardinals could use Yunel Escobar as their 2008 SS?
Reyes, despite his horrific W/L record, is better than any other SP on the trading block (Assuming the ChiSox are keeping Vazquez).
Actually, steroids WERE against the rules as of 1991, as revealed by Fay Vincent. Baseball banned all “illegal substances,” though with no testing it was a toothless and essentially laughable ban. Still, it was technically against the rules.
It all boils down to a moral issue. Sure, what he did wasnt “illeagal” but its wrong.
As has already been stated, the drugs he was using are illegal without a perscription and it doesn’t appear that he had one. So those were illegal drugs that he was taking and taking illegal drugs was against baseball rules at the time. So if you want to say he cheated baseball by breaking the rules you are totally justified. Comparing him to jerks, or racists, or drunks makes no sense since those things are not against baseball rules.
Ryan, almost every player has more extra base hits relative to hits as he ages; this doesn’t demonstrate anything. It’s the normal aging pattern.
I challenge anyone to find any trace of a normal aging pattern in Barry Bonds’ statistical profile.
bonds has admitted to using the “cream” and the “clear”, but pleads ignorance as too what they actually are.
Coz, i’m shocked to discover other records may be tainted as well…do tell. (read sarcasm)
that wasn’t really what i was getting at.
and if a ballplayer need a sign up on the wall to tell him not to take steroids, or punch another player or anything else for that matter, then i really am losing hope for the game.
Would it be fair to say that the Giants as a team benfitted from Bonds’s cheating? How many extra runs did they score due to home runs that should have never been home runs if Bonds was clean?
See, that’s the road we’re going to have to go down if we penalize Bonds here.
How does Aaron’s aging pattern look? His two highest home run hitting rate ages were 39 and 37.
Guys who achieve excellence are going to be at the abnormal end of the spectrum…that’s why this is news. Furthermore, we have several other factors that may explain the league-wide surge: expansion, new ball parks, juiced balls, and new bats. It doesn’t mean Bonds didn’t juice, but there are several legitimate explanations.
Sam – Indeed. Let us also figure the financial rewards for the game of baseball itself thanks to the feats of McGwire, Sosa and Bonds (not to mention all the other juiced hitters and pitchers.) While Ripken may have helped the game get back on it’s feet after ’94, it was the home run that brought the fans back to their seats and both MLB and the sports media championed it then and now turn their back on such (since their pockets are fat with the $ made from the whole thing.)
That’s why I think it’s just a wee bit hypocritical. A lot of people had to have been covering their ears and saying “I can’t hear yoooooooou!” when the specter of steroids in the game was brought up.
JoshQ,
You can accept the fact that the record is going to be broken without allowing it to happen against your team. I’d walk him every single time, in honor of Henry Aaron.
Stu,
Even if it eventually costs the Braves the game? Would you potentially sabotage the Braves’ playoff push just to make a point or delay the inevitable? That just makes no sense to me at all.
Yes, I would, Sam. I’m of the opinion that some things—this being one of them—are more important in the long run than wins and losses.
And it’s not about delaying anything. For me, it’d be about showing some respect to the greatest player in your franchise’s history.
You don’t share my opinion and you don’t have to.
i think you missed my point mac. the point i was trying to make was that the homeruns went up because he added power, thus increasing his singles to doubles, doubles to hr’s, hr’s to bigger hr’s, while decreasing his singles. mac, you look back, compare his body frame (i used baseball cards), and i dont think it’s just a coincidence that his extra base hits started to really shoot through the roof when he put on 20-30 lbs of pure steroid-induced muscle. and i bet he wasnt legging many of those doubles out considering his stolen bases were also on the downfall. i do understand the pattern with baseball players production, but his numbers are much more extreme than any other players that i can find. if you have any complarisons, please feel free to post them.
For me, it’d be about showing some respect to the greatest player in your franchise’s history.
Showing some respect would be getting him out and winning the game. I doubt Hank would want us to hurt our chances by walking him every time. Making a mockery of the game shows respect? I don’t see that at all.
I don’t see walking Bonds as making a mockery of the game, Robert.
Off topic:
FBI probes allegations NBA ref bet on games he worked
ESPN.com news services
You mean, NBA refs are not calling games on the up and up? I am shocked!
and i dont think it’s just a coincidence that his extra base hits started to really shoot through the roof
That and the fact that his shoe size increased by 2.5 after age 35 are both just coincidences, ryan c.
So it 2-2 in the eighth, bases loaded, Bonds digs in against Soriano. Should be a great matchup, the kind of scenario we sit through the three hours of tedium for. But we decide to walk Bonds out of some strange deference to Hank, the winning run scores uncontested and we lose 3-2. That’s making a mockery of the game.
Stu,
I’m sure there will be plenty of pitching around Bonds everywhere, though. Hank got that treatment when he was chasing Babe Ruth, but he broke the record anyway.
I’d love to know how Aaron would feel about that idea, though, of the Braves pitching around Bonds and that causes them to lose the game.
Robert,
That’s what I say, but Stu says that not pitching to Bonds at all is showing respect to Aaron because Bonds can’t hit any home runs against the Braves.
Right?
Only some things, like I said, are more important to me than winning a particular game. Take solace in the fact that Bobby Cox and John Schuerholz almost certainly don’t agree with me here.
… quite frankly, that attitude makes me wish that Bonds would break the record in Milwaukee so that the Braves wouldn’t have to deal with it.
Stu, I respect your opinion, but it just absolutely makes no sense to me.
I’m sure Hank would publicly plead the team not to do so and privately feel quite honored.
Take solace in the fact that Bobby Cox and John Schuerholz almost certainly don’t agree with me here.
Yeah, they are pretty big on not being bush league and embarrassing the organization. I do take solice in that.
Check out Cormier’s last two starts
http://www.minorleaguebaseball.com/milb/stats/stats.jsp?n=Lance%2520Cormier&pos=P&sid=milb&t=p_pbp&pid=433578
other than the walks, he’s making progress
The Braves’ offical dance:
The Fifth Starter Shuffle. 😀
Robert,
Why the hostility? I’m just offering an opinion.
I know how much you like belittling others on this forum, and I know how much you like having the last word—not trying to take it from you here, honest!—but you don’t have to take what I’m saying here so personally. I meant no harm by my remarks.
In response to my opinion (as is the case with most of my and several of others’ opinions), you try to be as sarcastic and assholish as possible. I don’t get it. It’s pretty lame. I wish you’d stop.
My last Bonds comment for the day – in regards to his career change and gaining more extra base hits, one could consider one factor for this his change is game style. Early in his career, he was hitting lead off and his game was more about avg. and steals. As he moved towards the 3rd and 4th positions in the batting order, he was swinging for the fences more.
Of course, this does not negate the obvious difference in size that many have noted or the sheer # of home runs that he (and others) were able to hit. Further, the above does not fully explain the increase in extra base hits. It’s just something many people tend to forget.
Now on to more interesting topics…what starting pitcher (that we could legitimately acquire) would you most desire for the stretch run?
Ian Snell
@101 Stu,
I’d agree with that assessment.
Another vote for Ian Snell.
The changes in Bonds’s hat and shoe sizes are a rumor. No one has verified this. Even if these were verified it would only prove that Bonds is stupid. HGH, which would cause this, has no strength effects. Why the media fails to report on this, I don’t know.
On the Vincent memo, it was not part of the rules because it was not approved by the collective bargaining process. The owners cannot just unilaterally say steroids are illegal anymore than they can say you can’t eat chicken. The players and owners must agree. The first time PEDs were a punishable offense in MLB was 2004, when a second positive test resulted in suspension. In 2005, one test was enough for a suspension. There was testing in 2003, but it was anonymous and steroid use was not punishable.
Other questions. If steroids were responsible for the rise of the power game, why has power stayed high with testing? Why have half of the players busted been pitchers, not hitters?
Are we sure the Snell info is reliable? That we could legitimately acquire him? If so, yes, Snell. If not, Javy Vazquez.
“Assholish” has always been my favorite cuss-word derivative. I always thought it would make a great surname.
And my favorite cuss word: Fuckhead. Because it makes no sense, but you definitely know what it means.
End of blue-language brief.
JC,
When’s the last time a guy hit 60 HRs?
ububba – -I am also partial to “assbag” and “cockfucker” – the later especially since it is pretty near impossible.
Sorry…no more blue language from me either.
As for pitcher – between Gorz and Snell, might we rather have Gorz?
ububba, wasnt it barry’s year of 73HR?
I’ve seen a lot of rumors stating that the Pirates want Salty for Snell, not Gorzelanny. We’ve apparently balked at that offer. I would do it
Walking Bonds accomplishes nothing. It does make a mockery of the game because there is no strategical reason to do such a thing. If you make the choice to walk him every time, you are basing your decision on a purely emotional level. Bonds is Bonds and he is easy to loathe, but he is just 1 guy among many who are culpable. I just hope if teams decide to walk him, they don’t ask one of their pitchers who took steroids to do the walking.
This was an article put out by ESPN on March 1st. You decide if its credible or not.
“ESPN announced yesterday that Barry Bonds shirt size ballooned from 42″ to 52″, his shoe size grew from 10 1/2 to 13, and his hat size went from a 7 1/4 to 7 1/2. These “stats” were allegedly taken from Mark Fainaru-Wada’s and Lance Williams’ book, Game of Shadows. What else does the worldwide leader, or Fainaru-Wada and Williams have up their sleeves? So human growth hormones (HGH) makes the bones in a man’s body, in Bonds’ case the bones of the skull and feet, grow???”
ARod had 57 in 2002 and Ryan Howard had 58 just last year. They probably could have had two or three more in them, but had bad luck or something. 😛
I don’t think doing things for purely non-strategic reasons necessarily makes for a mockery, JoshQ.
JC, I find your argument that expansion and bandbox ballparks have had a greater overall effect on the game’s offense than steroids, but I also agree with you that it’s not the whole story.
In the aggregate, steroid use by batters may be canceled out by steroid pitchers. But in individual cases, like the cases of the athletes subpoenaed by Congress, Raffy Palmeiro, Sammy Sosa, Mark McGwire, and Jose Canseco, and in the well-documented (by Fainaru-Wada and Williams) case of Barry Bonds, steroids may well have had a significant effect.
The first sentence should read “… I find your argument compelling“
Of those “available” mentioned who may help this year and beyond, in order:
1. Snell
2. Gorzelanny
3. Vazquez
4. Anthony Reyes
5. Arroyo
Stay far, far away from Morris, Trachsel, Contreras and their ilk.
The scary thing is that ESPN is listing those BAD pitchers as the best ones available.
Andruw Jones’ last 10 games:
15 for 39, 5 HR, 16 RBI, 7 BB
385/478/821
That’s what you call “hot.”
His increased shoe and hat sizes are the biggest sign for me. All the numbers could theoretically have been put up without the help of steroids (although it would be extremely unlikely). There’s simply no way that his feet and head would increase in size that much unless he took steroids.
JC, power numbers have gone down. Nobody is hitting 60 home runs anymore. The year when McGwire broke Maris’ record, Greg freaking Vaughn hit 50 home runs. The number meant nothing anymore. Then after the testing was implemented, for several years, Andruw was the only one to crack 50. Last year Ryan Howard hit in the high 50s (don’t remember the actual number), but it has gone down some. Power numbers are still high relative to the history of the game, but there are still all the other factors that have been mentioned (smaller ballparks, diluted pitching, etc.). The numbers are not as ridiculous as they were at the theoretical height of the steroid era.
The Braves will play the lowly Giants to win, not delay the inevitable for a week. If there is a runner on second, first base open, and either one or two outs, yes walk Bonds. Otherwise don’t give free passes and decrease your odds of winning. The Braves aren’t going to walk Bonds all the time and regardless of the situation. Enough of that stupidity please.
Total homers, NL, by year:
1997 2163
1998 2565
1999 2893
2000 3005
2001 2952
2002 2595
2003 2708
2004 2846
2005 2580
2006 2840
2001 was the year when Bonds broke the record; 2005 was the first year of testing. As you can see, homers went down immediately after testing — to almost exactly the same level as 2002. In 2006, they were at the same level as the last year before testing. 1998 was the year Maris’ record fell, and it had one of the lowest totals of the last decade.
My math may be off, but this year I project the NL at 2905 HR.
I never said they would, Dan. Good to see you’re still as pleasant as ever.
I am much more concerned about the Braves winning than about where Bonds breaks the record. And who says you can’t pitch to him and get him out. If it strategically makes sense to walk him, then do it. If not, pitch to him. Plus, I guarantee there will be plenty of fans there to see Bonds hit. It’s not fair to walk him just so he won’t break the record. And, yes, walking him just to avoid having him break the record would be making a mockery of the game.
Bobby likes Bonds. And we rarely intentionally walk Bonds. Always pitch to him. Remember couple of years ago when Bobby Bonds had passed away, and we were playing in SF. lost cpl of games in the 9th inning when we pitched to Bonds and he homered..
Everyone accepts the fact that Bonds may have used steroids, and it helped him compensate for his lack of speed, and play long enough to break the HR record, but he was a top-5 player already, and this just pushed him to the very top. I don’t think he is using steroids anymore, and it kinda shows, the number of injuries which he has to work through. But his raw ability is still there. The question is, will he get in first ballot?
I say Bonds breaks the record against the Braves.
not “lack of speed” but decreasing speed.
And also, cheaters and assholes a plenty have been enshrined in the HoF, first ballot.
If you’re going to put Bonds on rather than pitching to him (I’m agnostic on the topic in general), could we please hit him in the head rather than walking him? That would be much more fun to watch.
Watchman – there’s not much sport in that. I mean, about the only people that might not be able to hit him in his large cranium are Kyle Davies and/or Dan Kolb. 😉
test test
test test