ESPN – Red Sox vs. Braves Box Score, June 18 2007 – MLB
Hey, look, offense! Homers, even! Weird.
The Red Sox took a lead in the second when Coco Crisp hit only his second homer of the year, a solo shot off of Chuck James. James was solid most of the rest of the night, and the Braves tied it in the third thanks to some nice hustle from Thorman, who legged out a leadoff double then scored on a sac fly.
In the third, they took the lead on a double from McCann, scoring Renteria, and after Andruw and Francoeur popped up and Thorman was walked to load the bases, James drove in a run with a bloop single to make it 3-1.
Finally, the Braves broke it open in the fifth when McCann hit a three-run homer. James allowed another homer to Crisp (one all year coming in, remember) with one out in the sixth. He’d thrown 96 pitches, so Bobby went to the pen.
Renteria got the run back with an RBI single in the bottom of the inning. JD Drew hit a solo homer off of Kali in the seventh, but Thorman hit a two-run homer in the bottom of the inning to make it 9-3. McBride screwed up in the ninth, allowing a run and two other baserunners, and Wickman had to come in to get the last out.
Three hits apiece for Renteria and Chipper, while Harris and Thorman each had two and a walk. Andruw, meanwhile, looks sick or something and is down to .205. Seriously, he needs a day off.
McBride looks like Rick Ankiel against us. He needs to go down, fast.
Look at these splits,
slg% – .444
obp – .274
ops – .718
hr – 9
2b – 13
slg% – .400
obp – .307
ops – .707
hr – 11
2b – 16
Jones has alot more ABs to account for the extra base hits – but WOW!
It’s because he’s a streaky power hitter. Streaky power hitters who don’t have good, fundamental hitting skills will go into long, exaggerated, prolonged periods of hitting ineptitude because they’re not good hitters. They create the illusion that they’re a good hitter because their OPS and OPS+ over-inflate their slugging contributions. Guys like Andruw aren’t reliable for sometimes very long periods of time because they aren’t good hitters. You don’t want them up in crucial situations where you desperately need a base hit, because they’re not good hitters. That’s probably why Andruw isn’t in the top 150 in batting average, because all he does is hit hanging breaking pitches 400 feet. He’s Reggie Sanders with 15 more home runs. Does that have a lot of value? You bet it does, but don’t call him a good hitter. That’s a insult to Kelly Johnson, Edgar Renteria, Chipper Jones, Matt Diaz, etc.
Oh, did I start something again? I had every intention of leaving the latter end of the textual conniption last night where it was, but when people say, “stop talking out of your a**, Rob” it just PISSES you off.
i’m with you and your ass talk. druw ain’t a good hitter, but we desperately need him to start producing runs even if he doesn’t hit for average.
The conniption, at the very least, was mutual. So now he’s been a valuable hitter, but not good — okay, fine.
Great win tonight, good stuff all around (Andruw excepted) — let’s keep it going, Huddy.
Speaking of Ankiel, another Andruw replacement??
Just kidding on this one, but I looked it up and he’s hitting .286 avg/.323 obp/.608 slg for Memphis (STL-AAA). That’s a .932 OPS with 19 HRs, 9 doubles and two triples.
I was just kinda shocked to see those numbers. I thought he was promoted to AAA at some point this year, but it is made to look like those are all AAA numbers. Does anyone know?
Bear in mind, I am not serious about this. I just think it’s kinda cool that he might make it back to the Majors after everything. Wow.
I’m with you too. Andruw’s always been far too unreliable, it’s just more pronounced this year.
I will say it again: bench him or DL him, but Matt Diaz deserves a lot better.
We need to stop basing lineuip cards on names on the backs of jerseys and salaries. It’s completely bass ackwards.
We should be basing lineups on performance. Andruw, based on his performance, should be sitting his derrier on the bench next to Bobby.
When the Braves win, I am happy. They won and beat the Red Sox…which is even sweeter then beating most teams. If ever a team deserves to lose constantly (based on fans and over exposure), it’s the Red Sox.
That being said, the whole Andruw debate is a pall over Braves Journal–and that’s a shame.
You know what would make us all feel a lot better? SWEEPING the dang Red Sox.
and andruw going 9 for 10 with 6 RBI over the next 2 games while batting in the 8 hole.
I enjoyed the game. I guess Chuckie was lucky none of his walks came before Crisp was at the dish. I also enjoyed the announcing, for a change.
No one ever said he wasn’t valuable. I don’t know why you have such a problem with saying a .260 hitter isn’t what you would call a good hitter. Sure, his isolated power is great, but he’s not a good contact hitter. You can break offensive players into four camps: good hitters, good power hitters, both, and neither. Andruw Jones is a good power hitter, and not a good hitter. Chipper is both. Brian McCann is both. Kelly Johnson is a good hitter. Edgar Renteria is a good hitter. Jeff Francouer is a good power hitter. Thorman right now is neither. Matt Diaz is a good hitter. Willie Harris… I don’t know what he is. Woodward needs to be sold to Japan. You can still have valuable in today’s game while not being a very good hitter. Why is that so hard to understand, sansho?
I’m reminded of myself in this insistence on getting the last word. Are other people as entertained as I am right now when I’m one of the ones being stubborn?
Thoughts of benching Andruw is nonsense. He is still a valuable player with his glove, and CF is a very important position. This is especially true with a team like the Red Sox in town. I was glad to see Bobby drop him in the order, but Andruw may very well snap out of it and hit 2 HR’s at any time. His track recored says he is consistently unporedictable, and can be as hot as he is cold.
My biggest beef with tonight’s win was the overuse of the pen. Chuck 5 lived up to his rep and couldn’t make it past the 6th with a 5 run lead. Then we had to get Soriano and Wickman up in a game that McBride should have been able to nail down.
Overall though a great win. Props to Thorman for getting things started with his hustle. He had a bad day on Sunday but rebouded well.
Because I don’t draw as broad a distinction between aesthetics and results as you evidently do — i.e. the distinction between “good power hitter” and “good hitter”. Andruw’s all-or-nothing approach, for 10 years, has helped put significantly more runs on the board than the average player, because he’s been successful enough of the time. That’s my only criterion in making the determination of who is a good hitter and who isn’t.
I’m certainly not defending his results this year, but I see a marked difference not just in results, but in approach between this year and years past. His swing is longer than ever — how many catchers has he clocked already? His head doesn’t stay as level as it used to. You say he’s the same as ever, and this was the inevitable result — I say he’s different, for whatever reason, and that’s why he’s struggling, and have 10 years of results to back me up.
I apologize for asking if you liked baseball — that was a low blow, and not germane to the discussion.
I’m not using aesthetics. I’ve said that I would say a good hitter will be more BA-heavy, where as a good power hitter will be more SLG-heavy. Because OPS will always value a power hitter higher, people like Andruw are seen as more valuable than players who hit more base hits and have a better BB/K ratio.
Andruw’s approach has been admittedly worse this year than years past. The reason is that he’s not a good hitter, and this is common for a bad hitter. Because he’s a bad hitter, he will always have a low BA, high strike outs, and an overall disgusting approach. He’s way too wide, his pitch recognition (probably because of his constantly changing head plain) is terrible, and his upper cut is more exaggerated than normal.
I’m sorry for calling you sweetheart. That was indeed a low blow.
You know, I almost felt sorry for Curt Schilling tonite, if thats the best he’s got he needs to hang’em up….I dont see how any team would want to invest in a long term contract of any sort
This arguement is semantics. Rob means something besides “makes a better-than-average to the creation of runs for his team” when he refers to someone as a “good hitter”. My guess is that he would say that Adam Dunn is not a good hitter. There’s no need for this to continue, post after post. He acknowledges that AJ has made positive contributions to the Braves’ success at the plate. He just doesn’t think that’s what being a “good hitter” is all about.
The comedic stylings of Rob Cope! Rob Cope everybody! He’ll be here all season…unfortunately. Tell the one about hitters with career OPS+ of 120 not being good hitters again! It kills with the ‘no basic understanding of math’ crowd! Dance, little boy, dance!
I liked Thorman’s night. Maybe tomorrow he can hit another home run, except hit it to section 145, row 16, seat 9 so I can catch it!
On your scale, at what career BA does it take to be considered a good hitter? .300?
Robert, I’m ashamed we have the same name. You’ve obviously missed my point that, as mraver just said, is really more semantical than anything else. Your insults are ridiculous, and I would hope I was a good enough person to not punch you in the face if you were right next to me. Must be easy for you to say that on the internet…
KLB, whatever number I give, I’m sure you’ll just find some random player who’s regarded as a good hitter but has a career BA one point under that number. Then, you can say “What, you don’t think HE’S a good hitter?”
With that said, x.
Whatever Rob. Your posts are just silly, so I mock them. You should probably get used to it. You’ve become a punchline.
My posts aren’t silly. You just don’t agree with them because you don’t understand what I’m saying. Forget it; this argument isn’t worth it.
Oh, come one, Rob. The supposed “conniption” you refer to was just me pointing out how ludicrous your argument was that Andruw only has decent walk totals because he always hit fourth without a decent five hole behind him. Nothing about that is true, and you were talking out of your ass because, again, Andruw has hardly ever even hit clean up in his career. But don’t let the facts get in the way of your angst.
By the way, the hitters you list have all had prolonged droughts as well. Remember when Kelly was brought up and hit .241 in 2005? or maybe the last two months, when he’s basically been average. But the most important thing is you’re calling a guy who doesn’t even have a season’s worth of at bats a better hitter than a probable Hall of Famer.
Then you give Renteria as an example, which is laughable. Sure, he’s solid and he’s been great thus far in 2007, but he’s also had entire seasons that were useless offensively. Look at Renteria’s 1999, for example, and tell me it was any better than Andruw’s start to 2007.
All of you people bashing Andruw Jones are completely ignoring the previous ten years in which he has usually been really good and sometimes great. But he has two terrible months and people here want him benched? It’s plain stupid. Basically every player in the history of MLB has had two consecutive months where they played either like bums or severely below their expected level.
Look at the way Derek Jeter started 2004, Mickey Mantle in the summer of 1965, Chipper Jones’s May-July of 2004, Babe Ruth in 1925, Dale Murphy in June and July of 1986, etc.
I didn’t think anyone was still hung up on using batting average, but, fyi, with his .208 start this year Andruw Jones is exactly 3 points behind Mike Schmidt’s career batting average, and I hope nobody here would be stupid enough to say Mike Schmidt wasn’t a good hitter. Andruw isn’t Mike Schmidt, but his last two months are comparable to Schmidt’s May/June of ’78. Let me guess, if Rob and Alex were Phillies fans they would have joined in the boos?
It’s all good. How about we settle it with a poll? I promise to accept the results, as long as they go my way. If they don’t, I promise to argue the phrasing. 🙂
I’m with Cope in this snit…just had to declare that.
MLBtraderumors.com mentioned Kenny Lofton as a possible replacement for Andruw next year. That was the most absurd thing I saw all night, including Dusty Baker trying to pronounce Saltalamacchia.
You just don’t agree with them because you don’t understand what I’m saying.
I’m sure that what it is. I have trouble understanding points of view not based on fact, reason, or common sense. You’ve steered clear of those, so it is tough to understand what you are thinking.
Who’s bashing Andruw? Not me. Who’s booing Andruw? Not me. I’ve said that he’s very valuable to the Braves. He hits for power, and he plays great defense. All I’ve said is that he’s not a good contact hitter. I’m not booing, I’m not bashing, I’ve just said what he isn’t: a good hitter BA-wise. Cry a river.
Kelly Johnson will have a higher career BA than Andruw. Count it. BA isn’t the end-all discussion for whether or not a hitter is valuable to his team, but that isn’t what I’m comparing. You just don’t get that.
I drive a Dodge Stratus!
I am a division manager! I can do 100 push ups in 20 minutes! I drive a… I drive a… I DRIVE A DODGE STRATUS!
Look, it’s just phrasing at this point. Andruw Jones is one of the game’s best “run producers” because he hits for such great power. Contact-wise, he’s not that good. He’s got a low BA and high strike outs. Why isn’t this agreeable? Ahhhh!
And by the way, this has nothing to do with his slump right now. Career-wise, he’s been one of the best offensive players of the Braves in the past decade. I just don’t think he’s up there with the better hitters of the past decade (Chipper, McGriff, Galarraga) because of his low BA. Yikes…
Calling Andruw a streaky hitter when he’s hitting .205 in mid-June is giving him the benefit of the doubt.
Any Braves fan knows he’s a streaky (.260) hitter. Most importantly, Braves fans know that we have never, ever ever ever seen Andruw look this bad for this long. Ever.
The problem is that the glove still works, so it backs the Braves into a corner. I wouldn’t know what to do if I was Bobby or JS. He’s Andruw freakin’ Jones. At the end of April I thought he’d come around…then May…now June…soon it will be the All-Star break.
What feels like eternity ago he had a series where he had two opposite field singles that provided go-ahead runs and I thought that was the moment the bad Andruw went away and appeased Joe Simpson forever. It was not to be. Bottom line: watching him swing is painful, and whenever he’s up with runners on I go get food because I assume the inning is over.
It’s 2007 and we are discussing batting average. Somewhere Bill James weeps.
Hey, I heard there was a game tonight. How did we do?
Andruw is Dave Kingman with a better walk rate.
The Red Sox hitters were complaining about the strike zone. Is it that much smaller in the American league?
Okay, everybody, just take a deep breath. We won, and everyone’s still bitching.
Here’s the rule: Would you talk like that to an acquaintance in real life? One who is larger than you? If not, you probably shouldn’t post it.
Paul, there is no difference between the strike zone in the leagues now, since they have the same umpire pool. The Sox were just bitching because that’s what they do, the entitled punks.
Why is Gonzo still listed as being on the 15-day DL? Is there just not a real advantage to being able to put someone else on the 40-man roster at this point in time?
Also, I thought at the beginning of the AL stretch that if we could go 6-6, we cheated death. I wasn’t too optimistic after the Twins sweep, but here we are at 3-4. If we can get to the All-Star break in contention, the sked looks very reasonable from there.
I’m still in a good mood & this Stella Artois tastes good.
you know what theory has never been tested: benching andruw. i know he might have been benched for a day, but not for a series. who’s to say that it wouldnt get him out of a funk. is there a leo mazzone of hitting that we can send him to?
i say bench him, spit on him, pee on him, and really piss him off. only then will we see the #’s increase. but, on the other hand, if i were coach, there would have been a lot of changes already.
1. thorman would have been cut (with a knife)
2.chipper would be forced to wear diapers in the dugout when not playing
3.hampton would have to carry a sign saying, “want to get paid for nothing? sure, we all do”
4. pete orr would have pinch ran to canada 5. yates and his nice tan would have been sent back to the land of grass skirts
6. davies would have been sacrificed as a burnt offering to chief nokahoma.
so, i am learning to look at this game as a journey not a sprint, but man it’s hard.
Stella Artois is dee-licious.
Bradley’s take on the apparent Sawx fan takeover at The Ted last night, including a quote from a local rock star. Hard truths, perhaps?
And if anyone thinks our discourse occasionally gets out of hand, take a look at the moronfest underneath Bradley’s column. It’s nothing new, but it reminds me of how alarmingly uncivil we’ve become. Sad, really.
Stella is like the new Budweiser — available everywhere. Much better than Bud, of course. Makes me wonder if Bud owns Stella.
AJC and AOL FanHouse have the two worst comments sections I’ve seen out there. Too big, too well-known, too accessible to folks who just figured out how to turn the computer on and think a post in all caps gets the point across better. I really hope Mac doesn’t ever sell out to the Haus.
Why on earth would anyone choose to be a Cubs fan?
A bottle of Stella has a tiny bit less volume (11.2 oz), but a bit more kick. Those Belgians know how to make beer.
Kali’s strikeout of Manny was impressive. Three basically unhittable pitches.
I get to watch the game. Granted, I already know the outcome, but this is cool. First time I’ve seen the Braves on television this year.
BTW, it’s really cool to watch the game and be able to read the entire game thread at the same time.
I heard Dale Murphy has the most Home Runs in the Braves history though Hank Aaron is a HR King. Besides, Aaron hit 755 when he was a Brewer. Talking of 755, Delta unveils Hank Aaron 755 aircraft
I can’t find a large pic and don’t make one because I have no photoshop for now.
But imagine, isn’t the Hank Aaron aircraft beautiful?
I can heartily recommend Bobby Cox with Mr. Ed Bastian, chief financial officer of Delta Air Lines Inc. He deserves it, you guys know.
Some sports writer says Barry Bonds is probably jealous about that.-_-;;
In response to Rick Ankiel comments. All of those numbers are from AAA I believe. I think everyone forgets how impressive of an athlete he is. I doubt anyone thought he would be getting this close to reaching the majors as a hitter. I for one hope he manages to get it done.
Andruw Jones has always been a great center fielder with great power–and he’s not a great hitter. I see Rob’s point and why is this is contentious?
Andruw has spent a lifetime for the Braves bouncing between .260 and .270 batting averages. This is sub par, but the rest of his game made up for it. Until now. He’s consistently killing the Braves while Matt Diaz and his far more reliable bat continue to collect dust on the Braves bench.
Look, if it wasn’t for the sudden emergence of Willie Harris (out of nowhere), I would say we would have little choice but to have to play Andruw. But with Harris and Diaz, there’s no reason not to stick ‘Druw on the 15 Day DL and let him save face…for now.
And it will allow the Braves to actually have a shot at a real winning streak.
And for those that continue to defend Andruw, how long do yuo put up with .208? I mean really? At what point (it’s now June 19th, a few weeks from the All Star Break) is enough enough with this guy?
In response to the Kenny Lofton comment, if Kenny Lofton, that little rotten bastard ever puts on a Braves uni again, I will officially retire my support of this organization.
This is the only player EVER to bash Bobby Cox when he played for him–and bash the organization. He was a rotten, little malcontent, his one year in Atlanta and I for one never want to see him with the Braves ever again.
I mean, it’s one thing for me or someone to criticize Cox’s in game strategy, but I have never ever heard a player criticize Cox–hell, even Gary Sheffield, who hates EVERYBODY, liked Cox!
Dale Murphy has the most HR in Atlanta history. Hank Aaron has the most HR in Braves history. Aaron played for the Braves in both Milwaukee and Atlanta (and for the Brewers at the end, just for good measure).
Yes, sir ^.*. Thanks to billy.
Rob Cope is right!
Andruw Jones is not a good hitter, he never has been. I think he has been hanging around Scott Thorman too much (trying to hit the ball to Chattanooga)
If Andruw were a good hitter he would have figured out how to hit a curve ball by now. You don’t need to show me OPS or POSUEC numbers to prove Andruw can’t hit. I just sit on my couch and watch him wiff at slow curve balls that bounce in the dirt.
If Andruw Jones were on a softball team he would dislocte his back trying to hit, but still strike out.
For those of you following the Andruw is overrated debate, Jayson Stark e-mailed me yesterday, and I have posted his response.
That’s pretty cool, JC.
i guess i’ve never really thought of andruw as a 50 HR guy, more as a great glove who is mediocre, but productive at the plate…i’ll have to re-read everything but i’m starting to see that Jayson and the rest of the baseball world sees andruw jones billed as a 50hr, clutch guy at the plate who gets to any ball hit with in 150 feet of him. one could only get this idea, if you only ever saw him on sportscenter highlites and has never had the pleasure of watching him for the past 10 or so years.
JC, you are the man! Did you know this?
I dont have the patience to read all that bickering, but my only piece of advice is dont mess with STu. As my grandfather always said, “never pick a fight with a man driving a chrysler, cause he’s already mad”.
A W is a W…but Schilling is hurting. He was only hitting upper 80s with his fastball and his splitter was waist-high.
Beckett and Hudson tonight ought to be entertaining.
he’s a wise man
BTW, I saw an interview with Schilling where he said he would come back to Boston next year if he were offered a one-year, $13 million deal.
Really? Ya think??
The worst part…he hesitated before saying that he’d take that deal.
It’s unnecessary to mock Rob just because he doesn’t follow the sabermetric analysis to the letter. Andruw has obviously been a valuable player over the last ten years, but the degree of his value is, I think, open to question because of his inconsistency. I’m less of an Andruw fan than others on this blog because, as Rob and others have pointed out, he is not someone I really want up with the tying run on third in the ninth because he often gets himself out. In that regard, I think Chipper is often underrated here when he is, IMO, a great hitter and much tougher out than Andruw. But that is really an issue of whether he is great player and of Hall of Fame caliber; the team has clearly been better with him than it would have been without him. However, the numbers clearly show he is a valuable offensive player and the fact that other teams covet him would seem to make clear that they consider him a very valuable player. But I will say this–if Andruw gets a huge contract and goes somewhere else, I guarantee that the fans of that team–if not the team itself–will soon become extremely frustrated with Andruw because of what we have all observed over the last 11 years. He will be expected to be what he is not–a great hitter.
And comparing Andruw to Mike Schmidt is misleading because Schmidt played in a completely different offensive era. It’s interesting to note, however, that Schmidt was frequently booed in Philly (I know-what else is knew) and I know someone that still hasns’t forgiven Schmidt for his performance in the 1983 World Series. The point is, Schmidt was a lot like Andruw–fabulous glove, a lot of power but prone to slumps.
I haven’t posted in a few days because I’ve been soooo enthralled in the Andruw back and forth…
Best Line goes to Smitty:
“If Andruw Jones were on a softball team he would dislocte his back trying to hit, but still strike out.”
We all know Andruw can’t hit the offspead stuff, but I like how you put it.
By the way, why is there so much contention over this argument. Albert Pujols is a great hitter, Andrus isn’t. I’m sorry if this bursts someone’s bubble. Andruw can hit the homer and this makes him valueable, but he’s not a great hitter.
That was a great post and summed the Andruw situation up well. Frustrating to say the least.
And though I am the only one on here who continues to ‘joke’ about the fact that Andruw has a pot belly, in all seriousness, look at the kid who strode to the plate at age 19 in the ’96 World Series, and look at the rich, fat, underachieving Jones now. And yes, he can still make those CF highlight reel catches in Center, but not as much as he used to and he’s regressed everywhere.
I feel my side of the Andruw argument is vindicated when you compare him to some like Chipper or even some of our new generation studs like McCann and Kelly Johnson.
Even when any of these guys slump, they still take walks, work pitch counts, and act like professional hitters. Guys like Chipper, Kelly and McCann will always be more valuable to the Braves or any lineup then the swing for the fences with a low batting average crowd like Thorman, Frenchy and Andruw.
The reason why you don’t see this giant, heated debate on Braves Journal about Chipper, is that he keeps that batting average up over .300 and can do it all at the plate. I feel like everytime Chipper comes to bat, the Braves have a chance to do something.
Everytime Andruw comes to bat during one of his legendary cold streaks, I basically go back to reading an email or doing something for work, because I just assume he will let me down.
Chipper may have major durability issues, but I will take 120 games of someone who’s far more reliable at the plate, then a guy who’s taking a batting order spot away from a reliable hitter like Matt Diaz, and is hitting .208, striking out 3-5 times a game.
It’s that simple for me.
Nobody disputes “not great”. The dispute was over “not good”.
Andruw Jones defenders before season: He’ll have a great walk year and the Braves will get the short-term benefit.
Andruw Jones defenders in April: He’ll get good soon.
Andruw Jones defenders in May: Andruw will be great by June, wait and see.
Andruw Jones defenders now: He’ll be good sometime after the all-star break.
How much longer do we fall for their siren song?
Well Dan, you don’t have to be a defender to think that he can’t continue doing what he is doing now. He is a career .260 hitter, not a career .200 hitter. So simple logic would tell you that he will be better at some point.
the most frustrating time in last nights game was when Chipper and McCann were on 2nd and 3rd with no outs. Andruw pops up, Francouer pops up, and the only way we can score is by Chuckie helping himself out. These guys have to produce in these situations.
I dont know what others thought, but I thought Dusty had some really good things to say about Atlanta, their players, their fans, and especially Bobby Cox. i really enjoyed listening to him and thought he did a good job. Its was also funny to hear him try and pronounce Saltalamachia.
It was kind of cool to watch Big Papi do the Tom. Chop in their dugout, I hate the Red Sox, but I like him. He always has nice things to say about everyone
McCann says he took a lesson from his father, and that’s he got it figured out. His double and homerun makes me hope he’s back.
I thought for sure McBride would go down today and be replaced by, I guess Will Startup is the first-in-line left-hander. Maybe not.
csg, here is what I wrote in a game thread just a few days ago. My exact quote:
“Andruw Jones and Jeff Francoeur=twin rally killers. They should never bat back-to-back again as far as I am concerned.”
Last night proved it again. How long will Bobby Cox let this insanity go on? No more Andruw and Francoeur batting next to each other, please.
To be fair, “Big Papi” was making fun of us. But I didn’t really care because we kicked their butts.
I don’t love Dusty Baker, but I will take him any day over Joe Morgan, who’s horribly anti Brave, always has been.
I bet in September, Jones defenders will just say wait for October–right.
Simple logic would be great…but what indicators, nearly halfway through his miserable season, has ‘Druw given any of us that he’s suddenly going to go into a stretch of hitting well over .300 to catch that .260 average?
Honestly, has he shown any indicators? Not really.
Well, if Bobby would DL ‘Druw and play Diaz, that would be a non issue. But totally agree…back to back to back of Druw-Frenchy-Thor is downright painful. The all or nothing crew to say the least.
Its amazing we can get two singles and a double from Renteria, Jones, and McCann and then watch Druw and Francouer pop up the 1st pitches they see. When your struggling try working the counts and just do something to get on base, take a walk or something. I dont know if its worse that they couldnt get the runner home, or if its worse that they were pitched to with first base open. Normally we would see Andruw walked and them pitch to Frenchy looking for the DP.
Those hits by Renty, Chipper and mcCann were also rockets. That tells you how poorly AJ, and to a lesser degree, Francouer are swinging right now. Those 3 guys in the middle of the order, and Thorman after, were all hitting the ball hard last night.
It also speaks as to how poorly Shilling was throwing…he didn’t even strike out Andruw.
Yeah no K’s for Schilling, no way someone wouldve made that bet before the game
wow, once we make it past the detroit series things get a lot more managable schedule wise. if we can shore up the rotation and get a lefty for the pen. we could put some wins together.
That’s the second time I’ve seen Schilling get pounded early—I was at a Yanks game in May where he had an early exit. Of course, between those 2 starts he almost had a no-hitter.
As a fellow 40-year-old, I can relate. Some days, you just can’t bring the heat.
as a babe at 30, the heat can be hard to come by. 😉
The profound idiocy of Mr. Billy Knight:
i stopped letting the hawks get under my skin after d. wilson left the squad. how there are any hawks fans left is beyond me.
My favorite Billy Knight move is the drafting of Sheldon Williams. Not only was he projected in the teens (the Hawks took him 5th), but Knight all but announced to the world he would be their pick. Looking over his body of work, one has to wonder how he is still employed. Maybe it is because the ownership is an even bigger cluster#### than Knight’s mismanagement.
i meant Dominique Wilkins…sorry. trying to do 2 things at once and niether is working out too good.
Knight’s so-called philosophy all but guarantees failure, because he will continue to take raw, athletic forwards because they will always be the “best available” player by “upside”. How anyone can look at this team — which has some potential, an all-star in Johnson and a strong building block in Smith, and some other guys who might help — and think that Brandan f-ing Wright is the way to go is beyond me.
By the way, this mock draft is so insane that it will probably happen. You can never have enough swingmen!
If he drafts Brandon Wright he should…I don’t even wsant to go there.
Get this team a point guard, or use the 3 and 11 picks to get some veterens that will help. But for heaven’s sake, don’t draft another thin 6-9 guy who may or may not develop.
i can’t watch…the nfl daft is torturous enough
After moving to San Antonio in 1991 from Savannah and finishing my last 2 years of High School in Texas, it was easy to become a fan of the David Robinson, Sean Elliott led San Antonio Spurs and never look back. the Dominique years will always hold a special place in my heart during childhood, but the 16 years I have been a Spurs fan have been far more pleasurable.
Seeing the way the Spurs run their organization vs. the way a moron like Billy Knight runs the Hawks is painful.
How anyone could look at what Chris Paul and Deron Williams are doing and look at what Marvin Williams has not done, and not call that a wasted opportunity for the Hawks, is dead wrong.
Billy Knight, if he drafts the forward rather then getting Mike Conley Jr., should be promptly fired on the spot.
As I’ve mentioned to Alex, I think that the thing to do is take Horford (the most NBA-ready of the second-tier guys) #3 and Acie Law at #11. Sekou Smith is pimping Horford, and I hope Knight listens.
I wouldn’t mind a Horford/Law combo. I think Conley might be a reach at #3.
Oh, God. We changed the subject from Andruw Jones to the Atlanta Hawks. Ububba, I’m with ya on Belgian beer. Check out Delirium Nocturnum: it’s great.
Um, has anyone seen any good movies recently? I liked Knocked Up, Pirates 3, and Ocean’s 13.
Hawks? You’re talking Hawks?
I think it’s not so much that Joe Morgan is anti-Brave as he is anti-pitcher. He doesn’t like teams that are pitching/defense oriented, which the Braves always were. He really likes teams like the Big Red Machine–offense oriented with adequate pitching. I think he does respect what the Braves have done but having played on dominant offensive teams that won World Series, I think he looks at the Braves teams of the 90s as somewhat inferior. I don’t think there is any animus, the Braves just have never fit the mold of what he considers a great team. And he is probably right because when you think of the best teams, you generally think of powerful offensive teams that had good, but not necessarily great, pitching.
I was at the game last night and I thought we did a better job than usual against the Sox fans taking over our park. Every time they would start with “lets.go.red.sox.” we would boo them down. It made me feel good to see Atlanta fans participating for a change.
As for Andruw and the intertaining discussion betweeen Rob Cope and others… I think the most concerning thing about the situation this year is Andruw’s apparent lack of desire to fix the problem. It appears Andruw is in complete denial about his struggles right now and will not take any coaching help from anyone. Every player struggles/slumps but when that happens the good players figure out how to fix it (see Chipper flying in dad/coach to fix his swing several times over the past years); Andruw is doing nothing. That is what has me not willing to give Andruw much benefit of the doubt.
By the way, why is there so much contention over this argument.
Andruw can hit the homer and this makes him valueable, but he’s not a great hitter.
Welcome to the discussion! Too bad you don’t know what it’s about. If the discussion was about Andruw being a great hitter, it would have died the first day. He’s not.
It’s about whether he’s a good hitter. Apparently, there are folks who believe you can be a valuable, productive hitter without being a good hitter. It’s been a retro argument in that it is centered around batting average if you can believe that. The increased traffic Mac is no doubt getting this week (The Red Sox Bump) are no doubt quite impressed with our baseball savy.
The Red Sox Nation can kiss my ass.
For the first time this season, I’m sad that I won’t see the game tonight. The packages I have for viewing won’t carry it.
It’s been okay to this point to catch the Braves when I can. Now, they’re putting some serious hurt on some excellent pitchers. I hope they bust Josh F—–g Beckett tonight.
Hope’s a wonderful thing! Go Braves!
1) It’s thought that Joe Morgan hates the Braves because of his affiliation with the Astros and the Braves’ dominance over the Astros in the postseason–yeah, not so recently, I know. I posted on here that I remember Joe Morgan openly lamenting J.D. Drew’s game winning single in the game where Smoltz got the 3 inning save and lost his shit on the field afterwards.
2) Anyone remember Andruw changing his stance and spending all that time in the offseason fixing his swing before his MVP calibre season? Anyone? It was only, like, a couple years ago…
this “argument” is like two people arguing over what is “tan” and their in ability to agree to disagree about their opinions. if anyone is embarrassed by the community that mac has fostered, please feel no need to continue posting or visiting. this is a place where braves fan come to support their team and voice their opinions right or wrong. let’s enjoy this opportunity to come together rather than back biting one another over semantics.
I can’t watch the game tonight either. I gotta do a work-related event in Manhattan. Figures. It’ll probably be a great one.
And the Red Sox Nation was much more tolerable when they were simply Cubs East. At the risk of sounding like Hubert Humphrey, some of my best friends are Sawx fans—but even they admit that it’s gotten a bit out of hand.
I always tell ’em that they aren’t that different from Mets people: They don’t know how to act when things go their way.
I’ve said it before: Even though my father was a Cubs fan & my mother a Sawx fan, neither club is cute to me anymore. I love to beat ’em.
Yeah I remember Andruw’s stance adjustment. Something about Willie Mays helping out or something.
And Bill James can bite my ass. I’m in the process right now of writing a big ass paper showing that Win Shares is the biggest bunch of garbage bull shit statistic ever. Neat idea, sure. But awful execution.
Nonparametric statistics and discrete statistical analysis. Now THAT’S an idea ya got there Dr. Quest.
Anyone who says there was more Red Sox fans there than Braves’ fans is blind. I’d say it was about 65% Braves’ fans and 35% Red Sox fans last night. What can you do? Refuse to sell the tickets to the Red Sox fans who probably pre-ordered them in March?
biggest bunch of garbage bull shit statistic ever.
Lets not get carried away here. I’m pretty sure ESPN gets that honor for their new “MLB Player Rankings”. I’m about 90% sure they are just messing with us with that stat, just seeing what they can get away with. No one can be that dumb.
Agree with your larger point on Win Shares. Awesome idea, lacking on execution. If he ever gets around to doing a 2.0, we might really have something.
Well, the problem is obviously that Braves fans don’t show up. It’s no coincidence that the only sell outs or near sell outs are when the Cubs and Red Sox come to town. I have grown to hate “Red Sox Nation” but it is ubiquitous and there is nothing you can do when your own fans don’t come.
there is no need to be snotty about the so-called “retro” argument. I don’t remember you being elected as arbiter of acceptable arguments.
I don’t care if the Sox and Cubs fans fill the place up. I figure that anything that boosts attendance is fine by me.
And say what you will about the Hawks, but it’s an issue we can all agree on. The Hawks suck.
New poll, BTW.
Mac’s poll made me think of something – what exactly happened with Pat Corrales leaving at the end of last season? I found on Google that he said he just decided to leave, and then later on he was offered and accepted the Nats job. Was there anything else ever said on why he left?
Any chance Joe Torre would be Bobby’s replacement?
Braves’ fans show up pretty good on Fridays, Saturdays, home openers, games against the hated Mets and on special night like Smoltz’s 200th win. If Turner Field had only 30,000+ seats like Fenway, they’d sell out every Friday home game.
Attendance is not the greatest to be sure, but it was over 2.5 million last year. Teams like the Marlins would kill for that.
As an aside, my buddy saw andruw and renteria at a tavern in buckhead after the game, surrounded by strippers. Claims the ones around edgarrrr were doing blow.
I don’t get bent out of shape over attendance either. In fact, it’s probably my least favorite conversation in all of sports. Why? Because it has nothing to do with the actual playing of the game.
Of course, as a Braves & NHL Devils fan, I hear that attendance talk a lot from people. But that’s usually when the conversation ends, and often brusquely.
@119 – It sounds like Andruw needs to change his choice of strippers and maybe he’ll start hitting. That just something that TP can’t teach.
Last night during the ESPN boradcast, the announcers made another declaration that made me bristle…that the Cubs and Red Sox fans are everywhere, moreso then any team.
First, I don’t argue that are park last night was filled with a bunch of annoying Sawx fans. Yes, they bought tickets and are fans are too blase. At least many of them (though clearly all of us here in Braves Journal have major passion).
But everytime the Braves go anywhere themselves, there’s tons of Braves caps that can be seen on TBS or ESPN or Fox. We have had the Braves on the superstation for enough years that we have fans all over, just like the freaking Cubs and Red Sox.
And I hate them as well, but the Yankees also have widespread fan-dom.
Speaking of Red Sox nation, they have ruined the Sox for me. I actually used to kind of admire them, but between the 2004 World Series and that awful Jimmy Fallon movie, I actually now find the Yankees more sympathetic. Really, that’s sad.
I love the Hawks, Mac. (It’s a secret, though—they’re complete suck has kept me from being very enamoured with the NBA since the days of Mookie, at least until this past fantasy basketball season.) And I’m with you and Sekou.
Also, doubledawg…huh? I drive a Mitsubishi!
Everyone else, can we please drop the Andruw discussion? At this point there’s no reason to continue it other than to insult and piss others off. I think we all know where the vocal parties stand—let’s agree to collectively hope Andruw starts producing for the rest of 2007.
I’m with you there, Alex. I’ve gone on record many times on this site proclaiming my much-heightened tolerance for the Yankees and their fans relative to the Red Sox and theirs.
Everyone else, can we please drop the Andruw discussion? At this point there’s no reason to continue it other than to insult and piss others off. I think we all know where the vocal parties stand—let’s agree to collectively hope Andruw starts producing for the rest of 2007.
Can I continue to discuss his dallying with strippers after the game?
Okay, who in the world voted for Snitker? That’s a joke, right?
I voted for Fredi and am apparently the only one.
Who is Brundage? I must confess ignorance.
Heh. I meant the “Andruw is/isn’t a good hitter” discussion.
Hopefully this hasn’t already been posted.
Brundage is the AAA manager.
Two subjects for this crowd to look at. They literatively and figuratively come from opposite ends of the planet. Moylan and Chipper.
Last year I thought the Moylan pick up was good to great and now I am even more convinced. He throws his fast ball two ways. As what, for an overhander would be a rising (I KNOW they don’t actually rise, but only operate on a slower descending plane) BUT with Moylan, it behaves like a cutter AND also a separate, straight, fastball. He shoots the straight fastball at 96 inside off the plate on a lefthander and then follows it up with this cutter (that comes in about 94) and starts it aiming at the same point and then brings it back to the inside corner (looks like about 6 inches of rightward, from Moylan, horizontal movement) and they look hopeless.
The alternation between straight and cutter at that speed will also protect him if he catches too much of the plate since it will frequently cause the ball to be off of the good wood. And he certainly can work the slider / curve in on the right handers as well.
Also, his control has been MUCH better and his confidence (justifiably) is rising fast. Last year, I saw his ceiling as “right hand set up guy”, but now I think with a couple of more years to work his control and refine his pitch selection to fit the side / under throwing motion, he could be a devastating closer. In fact, with the long stints he has run, he could probably be a 3 closer. The biggest thing in his favor is that, unlike most sidearmers, he has a great weapon to work the opposite side hitters (combo of straight fastball, cutter, and change up).
On Chipper, what a hitter!!! I really believe his hands are hurting too bad to generate power (particularly left handed). The way the Red Sox pitched him made it look like they thought so too. But, he just keeps tinging and dinging the ball for singles all over the place. He also means so much in his “hitting coach on the bench” role. They need to let him decide when to put take signs on Frenchy and Andruw to slow them down a little (without just “conceding” the first pitch automatically).
The Brewers’ fans hate Yost. Why do Braves’ fans continue to think he’s something special?
You got me there Robert.
I’d like to see another big dumb sports franchise like SI or Fox mock ESPN’s player rankings if they haven’t already. That would be awesome.
With regards to Red Sox fans vs. Yankee fans, let me say this: they both stink and I hate both franchises. My hating the Sawx fans worse is not condoning the dispicable or obnoxious behaviour of Yankee fans.
That being said, the Sawx fans have been actually more detestable for a few years now. They are not the ‘underdogs’ anymore and the rest of America doesn’t CARE that they had a World Series drought. I am tired of the HBO specials, the bad Jimmy fallon films, and the 24 hour ‘Red Sock nation’ coverage on ESPN.
Plus, during that whole 2004 season, I found the whole dirty, scruffy, ‘cowboy up’ thing by the Red Sox players to be just, well…dirty. I preferred that the Yankees actually like to shower & shave. Most of the Braves are that way too.
But both teams seem to suffer (with the help of ESPN) from this notion that it’s their birthright to be the champs and that it’s an affront to their franchises when other teams like Florida, Anaheim or the White Sox actually win instead.
Hmm. I guess I just don’t see the Yankees or their fans as all that obnoxious. At least not toward anyone besides the Red Sox, which is fine with me.
I get the feeling Heap doesn’t shower or shave much.
Dan, the Brewers fans aren’t especially knowledgeable, and Yost is the most successful manager they’ve had since Harvey Kuenn. It’s hard to see what more they’d want.
MOYLAN- its australian for Rick Ankiel.
Okay, I’ll feed you. Moylan is the Southern hemisphere Rick Ankiel. He lead the Aussie bigs in Home runs a few years ago, but is actually a better pitcher. Anyway, I like Cliff’s endorsement and praise, much better than the damn fool that has a Pete Orr tribute page.
I just skimmed the andruw stuff, so all I saw was your random post at #32.
I personally know or am friends with way too many Yankee AND Red Sox fans to give either group of individuals a pass.
Each of my friends are exactly what their nations think they are: the Yankee friends of mine are insanely arrogant and love to shove their 26 world titles in everyone’s face; the Red Sox friends of mine are constantly moaning about any Red Sox loss to everyone, like the Red Sox are the only team any of us should ever care about.
Everytime this one friend in particular of ours brings up about the Red Sox, I immediately start talking (deliberately) about the Braves, so he’s once again reminded that the world of Baseball does not just revolve around his stupid Red Sox nation.
And Stu, to be fair, it maybe the case that your yankee friends are nice, generous, thoughtful people…the Yankee fans I know…really arrogant. (and the one I know the best also hates the Braves).
Moylan doesn’t throw 96 or 94…hate to disappoint you.
Seriously, is anyone else shocked that McBride didn’t get sent down? I thought his trip to Richmond was sealed last night.
Who is Heap? McCann?
Re: Sawx/Yanks Fans
Having seen a good 25 or so Bos-NYY games (including Game 7s in ’03 & ’04), my take may be a little jaded.
Both groups can be fairly intolerable when their team is doing well—and there’s always a loud, combative, subhuman jerkoff in the bunch. But since ’04, there’s been a big karmic shift between Sawx & Yankees fans.
A large part of it is simply that The Curse is over and both fan bases continue to react to this new reality in their own unique ways.
It’s like the difference between Versace people (obnoxious & demanding attention—Sawx) and Armani people (established & confident—Yanks) or new money (Sawx) vs. old money (Yanks). The dynamic can be interesting from a sociological perspective.
However, I gotta say that I don’t really enjoy the regular-season Bos-NYY games as much anymore. A lot of that has to do with the legions of thick-necked, 22-year-old, Connecticut yobbos who show up at Yankee Stadium and just act like drunken fools. The fully unleashed dumbass factor just gets old & boring. Gee, guys, did you actually think that you’d last all 9 innings before the 5 firemen from Elmont responded and then had you thrown out?
And why can’t I ever sit next to Stephen King? I always get the Wallingford rugby team.
But everytime the Braves go anywhere themselves, there’s tons of Braves caps that can be seen on TBS or ESPN or Fox. We have had the Braves on the superstation for enough years that we have fans all over, just like the freaking Cubs and Red Sox.
Indeed. I always go to the Dodger Stadium games (there are a whopping three now, thank you Bud for the unbalanced schedule) and the Braves fans always turn out strong.
I was also at the game last night – clearly more Braves fans than Sox fans. There was a big group of loud Red Sox people down the 3rd base line near RF who kept starting chants, but they never lasted more than a few seconds before getting drowned out.
The Red Sox fans were also suprisingly fair-weather. Almost all of the ones sitting near me were gone by the 7th, and all the chants ended once they started losing.
Same story in New York. Always a good chunk of Braves supporters here and we all look out for each other, esp. at Shea. There’s alwys that subtle “hey-what’s-up?” in the crowd between Braves peeps, knowing we’ve entered enemy territory.
Last September, I was at a Mets-Braves game at Shea. A guy in a Tennessee hat saw me in my UGA cap. We bonded in the beer line.
There was a big UT-Florida game the next night & he invited me to his house to watch it. But that’s where the bonding ended—I had to break it to him: “C’mon, man, you know what us Georgia people are allergic to, don’t you?”
“Too much orange.”
Dude, if my team had won 26 world titles, I’d be talking about it a lot, too. Especially to my buddies who rooted for different, less successful teams.
in honor of DOB, here’s some song lyrics for the Red Sox nation courtesy of Destroyer:
The thing you hated
The thing you hated
The thing you hated.
Red Sox fans and Yankee fans are equally unlikeable and obnoxious. Both feel entitled, both teams are full of mercenaries, both spend so much money it makes a mockery of the idea of fair competition.
Red Sox, Yankees, Cubs all have very, very large bandwagon contingents. I lived with a lifelong Cubs fan in college and grad school, in 6 years, I never once saw him watch a Cubs game unless it was Braves-Cubs and I had the tv on.
Yeah, I guess they have a right to be arrogant, just like I remind the obnoxious Nats fans that diss my Braves hat at RFK, that we won 14 straight division titles. They fled Canada.
That being said, the superiority complex Yankee fans have can be as overwhelming as Paul Rudd’s “Sex Panther” cologne in “Anchorman”. Seriously.
Speaking of Paul Rudd…how hilarious was his big Fantasy Baseball reveal in “Knocked up”.
“Hey Honey, I got Matsui! Did you hear me? I got Matsui!”
it’s not quite as ponounced at the sparsley populated RFK/Nats games, but there’s always a wink a nod amongst us Braves fans there. Cary, AAR and others in this area can attest to that. Even better for me when I meet a Braves fan who also happens to be a Dawg. A kinship is immediately formed.
Last night on the ESPN gun, Moylan hit 96. I have seen it 20 % or so of the time he throws the straight fastball. He was clocked at 96 in World Baseball Classic, thus leading the Braves to sign him.
I saw that “cutter” on ESPN last night clocked at 94 (and I saw it cut). Dusty and Sutcliffe went off about the angle of the pitches coming in at 96. It may be a bad gun, but the TBS gun catches him at similar numbers. He sometimes comes in a few miles per hour slower when pitching in long relief (he apparently has enough sense to “save himself”)
What the booth guys on TBS / Sports South / Fox Sports Net call Moylan’s “slider” (moves on a 1:00 / 7:00 or a 2:00 / 8:00 tilt) comes in 83 to 88. The change up comes in about 77 and breaks (not drops) almost straight down (12:00 / 6:00). My guess is his release and motion are similar to Gene Garber’s in putting top spin on the ball by releasing it off the palm while moving the arm upward rapidly, thus giving a “palm ball slow down” combined with a “splitter” drop.
@137, I think in comparing to Moylan you were talking about his hitting. Obviously, he won’t be blazing any mighty trails there.
If you were getting at Ankiel’s control problems, Moylan’s control SHOULD HAVE improved over the last 12 months and DID. He only adopted the side / submarine motion about 2 1/2 years ago. He learned it on his own. He has had the benefit of good Braves organizational coaching (and this is where Roger McDowell’s modern study the video methods probably mesh well) and has significant potential to get better control.
No, I don’t think he is great now. But, he is emerging as a real pitcher. Just watch closely.
The radar gun can say what it wants–but it said Yates was throwing Manny 97mph heaters on the corner that he couldn’t even touch. And I don’t think Moylan is in that league.
I can’t stand bandwaggoners, but they’re always going to be there for successful teams. I don’t hold those against the “true” fans.
And I think the sense of entitlement you refer to is a direct result of the payroll numbers—If my team cost $200+ million to assemble, I’d feel like we should be winning year in and year out, too. And I don’t see what the teams’ composition (full of mercenaries, as you say) has to do with the fans. If the Braves had a bunch of hired guns (I mean, that’s what Maddux and Galarraga were, right?), I’d cheer for them, too.
As to your “fair competition” point—every other team is equally entitled to spend that much money. Yeah, they have/spend more resources, but the imbalance is the fault of the MLB framework, not of the individual teams or their fans.
Sad news to report, Dawg nation:
My brother just posted on his Blog (he writes for the Macon Telegraph and has a TV Blog there, though occassionally discusses sports), that it’s being reported that our famed Georgia Radio play by play man, larry Munson, maybe forced to retire before this Fall, because of his failing health.
As a lifelong Georgia & Braves fan, this is similar to the day when I realized Ernie Johnson Sr. was no longer doing the Braves games, and now this news. I knew it had to come but if this is true and we have heard Larry legend call his last Georgia game, then I hope they fly Georgia flags at half mast.
I am keeping my fingers crossed that Larry gives Georgia fans one last year.
Within the current Baseball system, yes, the Yankees and Red Sox have every right to take advantage and out spend everyone.
That being said, this goes to the larger issue; Baseball needs a salary floor & a salary cap. All teams should be within the same region of spending, and you’d have more parity like the NBA and NFL.
I don’t disagree with that, Alex; I’m just saying I don’t hold it against the Yankees that they’re taking advantage of the system as it stands.
If I’m a Georgia fan, I’m praying that neither Scott Howard nor Jeff Dantzler is chosen as the successor.
Trivia question: Where did Larry Munson get his start? Vanderbilt!
I can generally tolerate most Red Sox fans. My problem is that ever since since the Sox won the title, people have seen the movie, read Bill Simmons, watched countless Ben Affleck interviews, ect., and somehow, a perception has been created that it is “cool” to be a memeber of Red Sox nation.
Now, there are a ton of people who really don’t have any kind of history with the team, but have just adopted them to fit in. They are generally loud, obnoxious, and have pathetic baseball IQs. Most of the time they are just New Englanders who didn’t really follow baseball till the sox won it. These are the poseurs who annoy the hell out me. Real red sox fans can be bad enough, but its the legions of fake ones that are insufferable.
I am personally pulling for legendary UGA QB Buck Belue to take over Larry’s mike.
I just hope it’s a year away…
(by the way..thanks for the tidbit about Vandy. I didn’t know Larry started there!).
That was very well stated. A lot of my anger towards Red Sox nation has really come since 2004 and it’s basically everything you just listed.
They are basically just insufferable at this point and there is asbolutely nothing “darling” about these people.
I found this article earlier today on Munson.
I wanted to say that I only hope that Andruw will hit his career average numbers and start doing that soon. I’m not asking for much am I? Just bat .260 the rest of the way and I’m a happy camper.