ESPN – Marlins vs. Braves Box Score, June 6 2007 – MLB
It doesn’t help when you keep showing up late for games. It was 5-0 entering the bottom of the third, and while the Braves rallied some late it didn’t matter in the end. Kyle Davies went five and struck out six, but allowed those five runs on six hits, including a homer, and two walks.
Meanwhile, the Braves finally scored in the fifth with Francoeur doubling two men home, but could never get closer than three runs. After good work from Boyer (whom I’ll try to write up tomorrow) and Yates, Paronto had another disastrous outing, going one inning and allowing two runs on three hits. The Braves got two more runs in the eighth and actually had the tying run on base, but Francoeur grounded out this time to basically end the game.
The Braves stranded a lot of baserunners. They had 11 hits and six walks (the Marlins had 11 and five) but only one hit, Francoeur’s double, for extra bases, while the Marlins had three doubles and a homer. There’s the difference in your game right there.
Thorman had three hits, Saltalamacchia and Francoeur had two apiece. Andruw is back in slump mode and is down to .219. And Renteria didn’t start, though he did pinch-hit later. This team just doesn’t have enough to win consistently with Chipper out and Andruw worthless.
What is this now, 3 out of 4 to the Marlins? WTF? No no, we can beat the Brewers and Mets, but heaven forbid we actually beat teams we should.
Recently, we’re 2-8 against the nationals, phillies, and marlins.
Oops, actually 2-9:
Lost 3/4 to nationals
Lost 3/3 to phillies
Lost 3/4 to marlins.
This team is looking less and less like a serious contender for the division. How often do you see the Mets lose series like this, with these kinds of pitching matchups? It’s happened twice already to the Braves (this one and the Nats series), and in both the Braves looked like they couldn’t hit a rookie ball pitcher.
The wild card is still very much attainable, but I’m having more and more trouble convincing myself that this team is a potential 95-game winner, which is what it’s most likely going to take. Two good starters and a solid bullpen just aren’t enough on the pitching side.
Too bad that JS and Booby are nearing the end of their careers, and are looking for that last shot at a title, because this would be a good year to start trading veterans, and build around the young nucleus that should include Frenchy, McCann and Salty. I hope Salty continues to hit, and Thorman continues to suck, so that Salty can takeover fulltime.
Steffen, I too am aggravated by our inability to look competent against mediocre pitchers. I don’t have stats to back it up, but for the last several years, it seems like we have CONSISTENTLY been shut down by no-name, rookie, call-up pitchers. At some point it can no longer be a coincidence. Is there something about the way the club prepares the team for pitchers they have never/rarely seen? Someone has to give them a scouting report, right? Every time I read something that says, “In tomorrow’s game, the Braves will face __________________, who will be making his major league debut after being called up from AA Sheboygan…” I always cringe, because we have such a track record of looking clueless against these guys. Very frustratring.
That’s what I was wondering about, Tennesse Brave. I only follow the Braves since mid-2005 and it seems to me that in game 7 of the world series we’d destroy Santana or Webb, but be shutout by some minor league callup. Has the team always been like that?
I think almost all teams have trouble against call-ups. I know the Red Sox do. It’s difficult for hitters to hit against guys they haven’t faced; it’s not unique to the Braves. What I think is more of a problem is the Braves inability to hit anything other than very mediocre pitching.
95 wins was always going to be stretching it with this team. I thought 90 was realistic and it might still be, but they are going to have to get healthy and get some consistency from the pitchers. You can’t keep falling behind by this much early and realistically expect to win (although some teams–but not the Braves–do this occasionally). It’s hard to hit when you are behind 5-0 in the third and even though the Braves put a lot of guys on base, it’s hard to do. Not to mention that the Braves offense sucks anyway.
I wouldn’t feel as bad about the team if they weren’t about to face Cleveland, Detroit and Minnesota. They will definitely see Sabathia and I would bet they see Santana as well. Pete Orr facing C.C. Sabathia and Johan Santana could be, well, interesting.
Disgruntled fan, don’t forget that we swept the Phils earlier this year.
andruw is just plain awful at the plate, bobby needs to have a sit down and get him strait. if this continues, i just can’t see how the braves would want to sign him for even $10-12M annually.
our offense is suffering from too many easy outs, woodward, orr and thorman have a hard time pooling their money to buy a hit. keep one of them if you have to, but set the other two free.
Swept the Phillies when, the first series of the year? That means a lot today.
I’m pretty sure it means 3 games in the standings, regardless of when the games were played.
They all count.
Chipper, every win counts.
Hah! Great minds think alike, guys.
i’ll take everyone of them
Well yes, every win counts, and I certainly wouldn’t give that sweep at the beginning of the year away for anything. But my suspicion–and recent play confirms it–is that this team isn’t the same one that swept that series. I go into each series now with a sense of pessimism, even dread.
Exactly, Mark. Sweeping the Phillies in April didn’t make me feel better when they more-recently swept us, at home. Who do you think has the confidence coming into the series with them now?
I refuse to believe that this is not a playoff team. I dont think, in our current configuration, that we a championship team, but only a piece or two away from it….Look at the team that won the WS last year….with 86 wins…
Also, the Magic just got burned again, they had been pursuing Stan Van Gundy, he just signed with the Kings…..who’s left? Larry Brown and PJ Carlesimo……uggh
Man, if our HOF third baseman and face of the franchise is this down, I might need to re-evaluate my position on this team.
AAR,
Was there ever a doubt?
I think Stan Heath would be available for the job, Donovan.
Educate me on him Stu, I know he’s with Arkansas, but thats about it. Actually, the names being tossed around here include Brian Shaw, who played with us for awhile, and now is an assitant with the Lakers, and Carlisemo, who would be a choke artist……
I think they should hire Carlesimo with Latrell Sprewell as his top assistant.
Another fine Bama product…
who also beat the Dawgs on the hardwood
Auto-out (Thorman) probably hit well enough today to keep him around longer. That sucks.
Cary,
Don’t be so smug. A lotta people beat the Dawgs on the hardwood, esp. at the end of the Durham years.
But if we’re talking Tide hoopsters, I’ll always prefer Leon Douglas & TR Dunn. Killer ‘fros.
One could ask Wimp Sanderson how he had Sprewell, Horry, and James Robinson on the same team and never made it past the round of 16.
No kidding, Mac.
I think they should hire Carlesimo with Latrell Sprewell as his top assistant
Only if he hires Bobby Knight as an assitant
I have a program from the 1991 subregionals in Atlanta. This was a very talented Alabama team. Their starting frontcourt was Horry, Sprewell, and Melvin Cheatum, an all-SEC player who was the team’s second-leading scorer. Robinson led the team in scoring, joined by Gary Waites, a four-year starter at point guard. Marcus Webb, who played in the NBA for a time, was the top backup big man. They lost to Arkansas (before the ‘Backs joined the SEC, the Day/Mayberry/Miller team) in the round of 16. No shame in losing to that team, but why were they in a position to have to play a #1 seed in the round of 16? That should have been a #2 or #3 seed, easily. The year before, without Robinson and Sprewell but with (IIRC) Keith Askins and David Benoit, they lost to Loyola-Marymount in the round of 16.
Losing 3/4 at home to a sub-500 team really stings. The Marlins are no pushover, but when you have Smoltz and Hudson pitching in a 4 game set you have to figure on at least a split.
This team seems to be in some sort of malaise. From day to day, you are never really sure what you will get from about anyone. Recent losses have been attributable to poor starting pitching, including Hudson, poor defense, lack of clutch hitting and some bad luck. The inconsistency in the rotation is well documented, but the lack of punch the last 30 days from the offense is a little surprising. Is the Chipper effect that large? The combination has produced a lot of early deficits, negating the strength that still is the pen. Is the last 3 weeks or so a funk, or are we just seeing what this team is, a slightly better than .500 squad made even more mediocre by the absence of Chipper.
Anyone noticed Andruw getting booed today?
Wow, the Phillies are destroying the Mets like they destroyed the Braves. They are getting scary…
…and the offense is missing Chipper big time…the starting rotation is one pitcher short…and the bullpen is missing Gonzo…
and the bench is full of old guys who can’t play
…ever since that Pirates series when both Gonzo and Chipper got hurt…everything has gone downhill…sigh…
As Yogi Berra said:
The other teams could make trouble for us if they win.
With the way we are playing and the way the rest of the NL East is playing, I think he got that just about right.
Those Bama teams were good, but the weirdest team to gag in the NCAA post-season was the Shaq, Chris Jackson, Stanley Roberts bunch at LSU in 1990. But Dale Brown was their coach, so…
The Mets are running into trouble, thank goodness. I believe they’ve lost 4 of 5. They’re having trouble scoring runs, strangely.
And congrats to the Stanley Cup champion Anaheim Ducks with one of my favorite players as the captain, former NJ Devil Scott Niedermayer. Well-done, Scotty. We miss you in the swamps of Jersey.
Mac had it right in his recap – the Braves just can’t cut it without at least one of the two Jones’s playing well. Having inconsistency from your 4th starter and a 5th starter (choose one) who gives you 1 in 10 good starts doesn’t help either.
We definitely need another starting pitcher, but if one of the Jones’s doesn’t get it together, it won’t make that much difference.
Btw, did anyone see the double play that Thor hit into yesterday? (The one where the ball bounced off the pitcher’s back.) I have been impressed with Thor’s hustle, but did I miss something, or did he practically walk to first?
I was just pulling your chain, ububba. Spree’s a bit foolish, but P.J. literally asked for it. They’re called fighting words for a reason. Other Spree comments, I won’t bother to defend, and I’m sure his children are eating just fine.
Love the Devils as well. Niedermayer, Scott Stevens, Claude Lemieux, Bobby Holik and, of course, Martin Brodeur, were my first Devils team back in 1993 (didn’t pick up NHL fandom until college). The Game 7 Eastern Finals loss to the Rangers on that luck goal was the absolute worst.
As for our Bravos, we are not playing our best ball, but we’ve been able to stay within striking distance by not imploding. The loss of Mike Gonzalez is the only thing that has dampened my enthusiasm for our season outlook. I loved the Gonzalez-Soriano-Wickman lockdown from the 7th inning on.
Once we get Chipper back, the offense will pick up considerably. That’s an area we’ve improved since the beginning of the season by jettisoning Langerhans and Wilson and bringing Harris and Escobar into action.
We’ve essentially reduced our easy outs in the batting order to one (Thorman) and he even has a puncher’s chance to contribute with his power.
Our rotation is running with a #1, a #2, a #4 and a couple #5s, so that could use some improvement, but it might be enough on its own to get us into the postseason.
I really like Salty, but I realize his value is much greater at catcher than 1B. Eventually, we’d be wise to move him somewhere he can play every day and add a third #2 or #1 caliber starter.
Anyway, there’s no need for panic. It’s a marathon, not a sprint and you can’t react to every loss like it’s the end of the world.
No panic. Mets are losing, too, but we gotta pick it up. Maybe the Cubs are the tonic.
Cary,
I was at Game 6 of the Eastern Finals vs. the Rangers in ’94 (the Messier game). After that empty-netter, I’ve never left an arena so quickly.
But I was also fortunate enough to see them win 3 Cups, including the ’03 title in person. For much of the ’90s & ’00s, the Devils and the Braves were the 2 teams I could always count on.
No, I don’t sense any panic from you, ububba. You’re solid. But there are a few folks here.. (they’re fine too, I just worry about their health)
I loved the zone trap. Offense be damned. So yeah, I equated the Devils with those early 90s Gene Stallings Bama teams and was drawn to them.
There was a friend of mine in college who was a huge NY Rangers fan, so he gave me a hard time after that ’94 series. Well, I had heard the next year after the Devils won their first Stanley Cup that Devils’ fans were wearing shirts with the Rangers’ logo on the front and the years 1940, 1994 and 2048 on the back.
I thought that was pretty funny, so I told my friend and he tells me that Rangers fans have shirts like that too, but with a Devils logo and on the back they say “Never, 2005, Never.”
Hilarious.
(especially since it turned out to be not quite true)
Cary,
I’ve said it before, but as a guy who lived through the bad 1970s & 1980s with the Braves, I can’t get too bent out of shape after the success I’ve seen in the past 15+ years.
I’d hate to think that I’m like a Yankee fan or a Kentucky basketball fan—someone who thinks he’s ordained to have a championship team every year. Kinda takes the joy out of winning & makes you more miserable when you lose. You should see some of the Yankee fans now—it’s pathetic, like anyone should feel sorry for them.
That Ranger Stanley Cup team bothered me…for exactly one year, until the Devils raised their own Cup. And after 1997, the Devils stomped them so bad each year that it got really amusing. I like to keep the Rangers down, but they don’t keep me up at night (unlike this Godforsaken story I’m trying to write right now.)
And I gotta say, of all the sports, I love watching the Stanley Cup presentation the best.
People, come on. It’s not that bad. Still in second place, still only 3.5 behind Mets, still 2.5 and 3.5 ahead of Phillies and Marlins. Plenty of season left. The Braves are going to be hot and they’re going to be cold. It happens. They’ll have a stretch sometime this year where the Braves will win like 8 or 9 games out of 10 and everyone will be saying “World Series here we come!”
A win tomorrow and everyone will forget about this Marlins series.
I agree that it is too early to give up on the season or just focus on the Wild Card.
To change the subect, the draft starts in a few hours and the last MLB.com projection has the Braves taking Main and not Heyward (or Smoker).
http://mlb.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20070605&content_id=2006566&vkey=draft2007&fext=.jsp
With the highest pick the Braves have had in a decade and half it should be interesting…..
It’s going to be tough to win the wild card for the Braves with the Padres, Dodgers, and D-backs playing so well. There’s a better chance to make the playoffs by winning the East. I can see the top 4 teams in the East beating each other all summer and all ending up with less than 90 wins. To end up on top, the Braves will need Chipper back quickly, Andruw hitting like the last 2 years, and James or some other starter to step up and become a solid #3.
I doubt Heyward is still around when the Braves get their pick. I’m still thinking Smoker, but who knows?
Here Here Ububba, as someone who used to by upper deck seats at fulton county and sit in the front row (Uecker style) I’m not all that worried either. Like I said in a previous post, we are a playoff team, but not a championship team in our current configuration. We need a few pieces, and I think we’ll get them.
We are in better shape than 90% of the rest of the teams in baseball, we just need a #3 and a power bat….as we get closer to july, I think more and more players will be available…
on another note, anyone else read about us having interest in Percival?
it bothers me that no mock draft that shows the Braves not picking Smoker has him going in the first round, which makes me think “reach” by the Braves (as he is not a signability risk). In other words, if the Braves don’t pick him, no one else of the next 19 picks gets him either. Is there some rule that the Braves have to pick a kid from the Stae in the 1st round.
I like the Braves getting local, Georgia-grown talent personally.
Wikipedia:
“Josh Smoker graduated from Calhoun High in May of 2007. He has committed to playing college baseball at Clemson University pending the outcome of the 2007 Major League Baseball First Year Player Draft. He is considered one of the top High School players in the country and arguably, the best left-handed pitcher.”
Maybe the “can we sign him” thing is why Smoker is so low in some of the mock drafts.
I think the Chipper effect is really significant. The Braves are 9-15 since he got hurt. No matter how people rave about Andruw, Chipper is the glue that holds this team together. Andruw is a nice player, albeit having a down year, but without Chipper, the Braves have no shot. If they can keep their heads above water until Chipper gets back, they have a shot, although his return won’t do to much to help the pitching. But I think scoring some more runs would help the pitching as well. This isn’t the Big Three anymore where you could count on them to shut down the opponent for five innings until you manage to scratch some runs across. Smoltz can still do that, but the others can’t, at least not consistently. But, even given that, the Braves have won a couple of games recently 2-1, where they did basically nothing offensively. If the Braves had scored a few more runs, they would have won at least two and maybe three of the games.
And,frankly, I still think Davies has a chance to be a really good pitcher. His problem is that, unlike Glavine, Smoltz and Maddux, he is learning to pitch with a team that is supposed to be good. If you look at their early years, I suspect they were just as inconsistent as Davies. Obviously, this isn’t a good pitching staff currently but scoring more runs would, IMO, make the pitching better.
From what I’ve read about Smoker, he is a top 20-25 prospect in a loaded draft. I don’t think there are signability issues, it’s just that there will be better “prospects” at the 14th pick.
I had seen the Braves taking Madison Bumgarner a couple of times. He’s a lefty here in NC with a good fastball, but he’s just starting to work on a curveball.
I’d much rather go with Heyward or Main.
I’ll buy the “Chipper out + Andruw sucking = Lose” theorum.
In other news, despite McCann’s not-being-completely-elite, Kelly Johnson continues to be really frickin good, Escobar has been impressive (seriously, where’d all the power come from?!), and Frenchy’s looking at least somewhat consistant at the plate. Thorman’s got enough power so that if he could just get it up to like .250, he’d be servicable. And Salty has looked pretty sharp to boot.
Sure, it’s been a rough few weeks. But they’ll come out of it. Just think how much better things will look once we get Orr and/or Prado off the 25-man!
I much rather the Braves pick a pitcher. Don’t we have enough fricking position players as it is?
mraver, I thought the Braves already dumped Prado.
I’d much rather the Braves draft a pitcher. Don’t they already have enough fricking position players in the minors as it is?
I’m afraid that Thorman is going to be a left handed Richie Sexon minus the 40+hr power….i.e. low BA, good hr production, low obp and ops….
The Mets site says that not only did the Mets lose last night (the final team to lose three straight), but Endy is out for a month with a torn hamstring, joining Green and Alou on the DL.
And once again, this would have been a perfect series to gain some ground.
You gotta see this, its hilarious…
Take note that the Boston Red Sox, widely recognized as the best/most complete team in baseball at the moment, have lost 4 in a row and 6 of 7.
Also, the Mets have lost 5 of their last 7 and are on the verge of being swept by the Phillies before going to Detroit this weekend to face the defending AL Champions.
Teams are going to have their cold streaks. As others have pointed out, it’s the bigger picture that matters.
Just read on the Braves website that McCann has been hurting…that explains his subpar performance at the plate and behind it this year. So Salty will be starting the next few games.
Taking a little exception to the “it’s just cold streak” theory put forth by some….the team has played .500 ball since the first week of the season. The team has some obvious holes and a streak of 12/15 or something like that is hard to see when you aren’t sure what you’ll get from day to day with the 3-5 spots in the rotation. I think the Chipper injury has certainly hampered the offense and it shows in the W-L record, but the real issue with this team is in the rotation, and I’m not sure what the fix is for that outside of maturity from Davies, James and whoever is in the 5 hole. The $64 response to that is ofcourse trading prospects, but will 1 guy make that big a difference? I’m not sure, and I like what I see of Saltalamacchia and could see him manning 1B for a long time. Thoughts of Len Barker tend to creep into my mind when mid-season trades are discussed.
I also agree with the post about Davies, in that I think he will be pretty servicible with time. He has good stuff and is tough to beat when he locates. He just needs more experience and seasoning, and he is having to learn in the pressure cooker of the big leagues for a team expected to contend.
On Thorman, I am a bit torn. In my heart I think he looks like a journeyman type with that long swing. Nevertheless, I’m not sure if 2 months is enough time to evaluate him, especially when he platooned for most of it.
Totally agree about Davies. The fact of the matter is that he should probably be at AAA w/o the pressure of the majors, but our budget constraints have forced him to learn on the job. I put him and James in the same boat. They are probably a couple seasons from us knowing exactly what we have. That is fine with me if they can pitch from the 4 and 5 spot in the rotation.
I think Thorman needs to go back to Richmond for awhile. I don’t see giving up on him, but, yesterday notwithstanding, he’s killing the team.
The problem remains that Cox–rightly after the shaky inning in Chicago–does trust Salty’s defense at first. Here’s an outside the box thought. I wonder if after his next game replacing McCann he should be sent to Richmond to play first for 10 days or so. This is moot if McCann is hurting, but giving Salty at least a few games to increase his comfort level (he hasn’t played first since high school). Pena would back up McCann and probably start just one game during Salty’s first base crash course. This is likely to happen, just thinking out loud …
Make that “… NOT likely to happen …”
In fairness, we were having this same discussion about LaRoche a couple of years ago and many people were making similar comments about how his swing was too long and he would never hit, etc. The Braves think Thorman can hit and their track record is reasonably good. My feeling is that he has shown some ability but is obviously still learning. Unfortunately, this is actually a young team that is in transition and it is going through the kind of problems that you would expect. That said, they can’t carry a guy hitting .220 at first base and hope to make the playoffs. I don’t know if Salty is necessarily the answer; everyone is excited because he has gotten off to a pretty good start but who knows if he is ready to sustain it on an everyday basis.