ESPN.com – MLB – Box Score – Braves at Pirates
Ugh. Tim Hudson, after typically allowing two runs in the first (blowing a 1-0 lead) actually managed to avoid having an Episode, but the offense let him down and the Braves blew a great chance at a sweep.
Jeff Francoeur was, simply put, awful. I don’t normally pick out one player but sometimes you have to, especially when the Game Thread in unison asks you to put him in the Doghouse. Francoeur came to bat four times, twice with runners in scoring position and once leading off an inning. He saw all of five pitches, popped up three times, and failed to hit a ball out of the infield. It was atrocious, especially with someone as shaky as Shawn Chacon on the mound.
Andruw was the hitting star, driving in both runs with doubles, Renteria in the first and Marcus in the eighth. The rest of the team was limited to three hits.
Hudson went six, struck out six, but had some control issues, needing 101 pitches. He allowed two in the first and one in the sixth, but worked around problems in the latter inning. For once. Of course, it was the Pirates. Paronto and Ray provided scoreless relief.
On to Cincinnati. Didn’t we already go to Cincinnati this year? Anyway, the Reds are (predictably) struggling but the Braves are behind so many teams that doesn’t matter a lot.
Is there anybody at Richmond that can come up and replace Dave Kingman?
I say you do a platoon of Thor/Lang and Diaz. Less defense, but better offense.
We talked about this earlier this season, but… what about sending him down? For motivational reasons, I think it may work.
would he be the only person from the WBC that would now be in AAA. What a difference 6 months can make…
do you really think diaz would give more offense?
Braves manager Bobby Cox may opt to take some caution and keep LaRoche out at least one more day. But he said the 26-year-old first baseman was available to pinch-hit on Thursday
Then why was Pratt our best option in the 9th. This lefty-righty thing gets about as old as Frenchy swinging at 1st pitches
Absolutely. Against lefties, Diaz is hitting .313/.341/.500. Whether or not he can keep up that pace is questionable though. Francouer is better against lefties, but he’s atrocious against righties: .244/.266/.415. Thorman against righties: .276/.288/.569
Lots of rumors saying the Red Sox are after Javy Lopez
Can “Dave Kingman” be our name for Frenchy?
Diaz has good numbers, but they are in a much smaller sample. I just don’t believe that he could provide a better option than Frenchy in right field. I agree that Frenchy is extremely inconsistant and make me want to throw my shoe thru the screen sometimes. Our problem is that he is the best option we have available right now and he is going to have to work out his problems one way or another. It would have been better if he could be doing this at AAA, but last year sealed his spot in the majors and I highly doubt that is even being considered.
Bad dog! Bad!
We’re stuck with Frenchy for a long time. We’d better just teach him to be a better hitter. The only reason he has so many rbi is because Chipper, Andruw, and McCann have been on base so much in front of him.
The Braves would never send Francoeur down. The scary thing is it doesn’t even seem like anyone in the organization finds his lack of plate discipline at all problematic. His approach at the plate hasn’t change one iota from this time last year.
In fact, it’s much worse:
1 UIBB every 32 ABs last year
1 UIBB every 73 ABs this year
That is the exact thing that I found worrisome. They’re encouraging him to swing away and it truly is hurting the team.
I honestly don’t remember a single one of Francoeur’s at-bats. Sometimes I get impatient and start flipping stations. I must have just missed them. It’s not like they take very long.
I think Frenchy’s freakish start last year has really hurt him. It’s not surprising that he did well; nobody knew him, so he saw a lot of hittable fastballs, and he hit them. And it made it a nightmare to do the right thing and send him back to the minors. But a walk rate like that is not sustainable at the major league level if you want to have any kind of career. He is the Electrolux of vacuuming up outs (“Nothing sucks like Electrolux!”). He should have started the season in AAA. Frenchy gets all the hype, but McCann is really the better player by a longshot, at least at this point in their careers. A few clutch hits does not make up for all the other opportunities Jeff wastes with his terrible approach at the plate. Like Jeremy, it disturbs me that this doesn’t seem to bother the organization at all.
Cute graphic though, Mac.
Diaz would be an instant offensive improvement in right. How long would it take for Frenchy to learn plate discipline in Richmond?
I wonder if the reason he won’t be sent back to AAA is a PR move and not a baseball move.
I must overrate defense because I want no part of Diaz in RF. I am as frustrated with Frenchy today as anyone, he was beyond terrible. His paralyzing fear of taking a called 3rd strike is just crazy and he gets more and more impatient as he slumps. The way to see better pitches and come out of a funk is to chase everything, right?
But Ti hink Diaz is starting to show why he had a bad defensive rep in KC. I’m not objective, because I’m one of Langer’s biggest fans, but an OF of Druw, Diaz and Thor scares the daylights out of me defensively.
Diaz has very similar walk numbers to Francoeur (5 walks in 162 at bats). If he played everyday, we’d be pissed him at too and his batting average would probably drop down below .300 (he’s a career .288 hitter).
The amazing thing to me is that anybody ever throws Francoeur a fastball. I’d just keep throwing him sliders in the dirt and strike him out every time.
How long would it take for Frenchy to learn plate discipline in Richmond?
In this organization? Infinity + 1. The Braves are about the worst team he could be with (maybe the Angels would be worse, but maybe not because they hate strikeouts), they’ve got the whole “His aggresiveness is what makes him special and we don’t want to take his aggresiveness away” apology down pat.
Oh and I agree that even if Jeff deserved to be sent back down, he never will be. Bobby loves him, it’s bad PR, and really, what’s the alternative? He needs to rest and he’s not even getting a day off. Besides, he’ll start hitting again eventually, making Joe Blow fan forget about how infuriating he is when he’s slumping and only remember how exciting he is when he hits bad pitches for home runs. But his slumps are going to be excruciating in the meantime.
I think Hudson took Jeff aside before the game and asked him to choke more to take some of the heat off of him.
The organization tries to run on the positive. Bobby talks about how great his guys are and gets more out of them (Renteria is just one of MANY). JS talks up his minor leaguers and then trades them for tremendous returns (Melvin Nieves). Jack Llewellyn is on staff and when interviewed he says the focus for ballplayers is to stay positive. However, effort is not the only issue. Performance is also an issue.
1. JS, Bobby Cox, and TP need to publicly say that walks are good and they want more. The boss of any of them that won’t say it should fire him.
2. Everybody in the organization needs to be taught a “two strike” swing. I know some of you would think that is dumb and old fashioned. But the three best all around hitters I have seen in Atlanta in the last 5 years (C. Jones, G. Sheffield, and J. D. Drew) are all good situational hitters. Two outs and nobody on, swing for the fences. Two outs and runners on, never fail to put a third stike in play.
3. Francoeur’s failing is the old fashioned “trying to kill the ball”. With a 2/3 swing, he can still hit the ball out (but he would cut down on the misses).
By the way, the earlier stuff in the thread trying to compare treatment of A. Jones is not on point. Bobby Cox pulls players for lack of effort, not lack of success. Bobby needs to add, “not following the instructions I am now going to start giving you”.
Don’t despair of Francoeur. He is so much like Dale Murphy early in his career. I know some stat head will say Murph had a 7% walk rate early in his career and not 2%, but FUNDAMENTALLY they are similar atheltes. Similar size. Similar long swings. Similar great all around athletic ability (althought Francoeur has a little more of all of that) Murphy struck out on curveballs and sliders 6 inches off of the plate and 3 inches off of the ground for 3 or 4 years. Then, one day, he learned an inside out swing that arced those things out in left center of Old Fulton County. That one thing (and a little better plate discipline) made Murph an MVP.
I haven’t seen any talk of Andruw being put on waivers. I’m sure there is nothing to it, but it is interesting.
Nice to see one person who doesn’t throw up kneejerk reactions when a player doesn’t perform.
Nice post Cliff, thanks.
but FUNDAMENTALLY they are similar atheltes.
Maybe but they are in no way similar players. Murph walked 115 times in 1987. It could take Francouer half his career to get that many.
I just don’t see how you could be on a team that has Chipper Jones as it’s best hitter for a year and never get it that maybe swinging at every damn thing thrown up there isn’t such a great idea. At this point I think we are left hoping not so much for physical development or a mechanical adjustment but that Francouer just gets smarter.
Man – glad I didn’t see the game. Anyway, Mac, the Gator preview should be saved.
Yeah, Jeff’s stats on a 2-strike count aren’t bad. His stats on a 3-2 count aren’t utterly horrifying. And everyone who has a problem with his approach is just experiencing a knee-jerk reaction. It’s not indicative of a larger problem or anything.
Yeah, that’s it…
I don’t know where to look, but what was Murphy’s walk total in 1979? I know that the rate was substantially lower. Murph’s first full season was something like 35 walks. In 1987 Murphy was an established power hitting star at approximately the peak age for plate discipline as measured by walk rates (great post on The Hardball Times this week on “projecting” that gives data on that).
But, I agree, Robert, is that there is a problem and that the problem is that Francoeur needs to get smarter. He SEES the ball 6 inches off the plate and 3 inches off the ground because that is where the bat ends up. He just doesn’t let it go. If he had a “boy your butt is on the bench if this doesn’t stop” from Bobby Cox, that would cure half of it.
Great article in Sports Illustrated in approx 1969 written as “Ted Williams on the next .400 hitter” (or something like that). They cut the strike zone up into approx. 5 horizontal rows and 9 vertical rows represented by baseballs. Each had a number in it. The dead center one and the one next to it outside said “.400”. The rest declined from there. Williams said basically “If you want to hit .400 you only hit this spot until you get two strikes”.
Francoeur fails to understand that under the best of circumstances, he can’t cosistently hit a ball he makes contact with for average or power if it is far out of the strike zone.
I haven’t seen any talk of Andruw being put on waivers. I’m sure there is nothing to it, but it is interesting.
It’s standard to put all your players on waivers just in case you want to trade them. If the Braves did put Andruw on waivers, somebody would claim him then they would most likely pull him back and that would be the end of it. If he’s traded at all at this point, it will be in the offseason or next year’s trade deadline. Although I believe he becomes a 10-5 guy sometime this month so he’ll have veto power over any trade.
Tigger1012314, I meant the reactions to his performance today. Thanks.
His stats on a 3-2 count aren’t utterly horrifying.
Well you made me look. 1-32 with no walks and 17 Ks. That’s beyond description. Zero walks! Unbelieveable. 3-2 is really a hitters count because the pitcher has to throw a strike. That’s an amazing stat. He will literly swing at whatever is offered on 3-2. Trying to find a comparison…
Garret Anderson dispises walks. 3-19 this season but with 8 walks and 8 Ks. A pretty normal 824 OPS the three years prior. Keep looking.
Aybar didn’t help today either.
I think old Frencho just needs the Pavlov treatment. If he swings at a bad pitch, shock him with a remote-controlled electrode attached to his person. If he walks, give him an ice cream cone.
The shocking would be negative reinforcement, not Pavlov. But I suggested something similar back in May. Terry does need to do something about it.
Well, I meant today, too. Thinking that today was so horrible that something needs to be done is not a knee-jerk reaction, IMO. Knee-jerk implies overreacting and that a day like today is the exception rather than the rule. But I don’t think it is. I think his approach at the plate will lead to all of his slumps being just like this. I’m not sure how he thinks swinging at every single first pitch will help him get better pitches, but that’s what he does. It’s a vicious cycle until he starts seeing the ball again.
It’s such a shame that when he decided to try “being patient” in an early slump, it traumatized him. He took a couple good pitches down the pipe and a called K or two, next think I know, he’s quoted about how horrible it was to take good pitches like that. Sometimes I wonder if he vowed never to take a called 3rd strike ever again. Hence his horrific 3-2 stats. Taking a good pitch bothers him way more than it should. And he pays the price…
Andruw’s debut was Aug. 15, so they have 12 days.
Frenchy is making Butch Hobson look like Rickey Henderson. In an unfortunate way, what he’s doing is pretty remarkable. Drop him to #8?
That’s my point, today wasn’t that horrible. So he had some bad at bats. It’s not the end of the world and I have seen much worse from other players, and they weren’t crucified for it. Frenchy is a work-in-progress, we should remember that instead of calling for his head.
Ububba, I would agree with that. Drop him to the bottom of the order and see if it scares some discipline into him.
It was moderately horrible. One more thing about strikeouts, Lando — a strikeout means that at least you saw three pitches! Four outs, all of them weak, including three popups, on five pitches? It’s hard to be worse.
And I’ll reiterate my comparison to Tony Armas Sr. He of the .252 .287 .453 career line.
Frenchy reminds me of Hobson as a hitter—a guy with no patience who tried to murder every pitch. And when he hit ’em, they were shots, just like Frenchy.
In my mind, I always compared Frenchy to Hobson (who BTW usually batted 8th or 9th for those Boston teams), but Armas’ numbers are certainly more in line with Frenchy so far.
Couldn’t find anybody nearly that bad. Jacque Jones 4-27 on 3-2 with 6 walks and 12 Ks. Being 0-30 with 16 Ks on 0-2 is pretty special though.
All right, Jeff’s name will be Tony Armas III?
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2006/baseball/mlb/08/03/lopez.redsox/index.html
Don’t know if it was mentioned before, but Javy Lopez is apperantly on his way to Boston.
There goes my dream of Boston taking Todd Pratt from us.
Hahaha
Francouer is no Murphy. Even is his first season Murph was walking at a higher clip than Francouer.
Frenchy reminds me of Dean Palmer or may be a little bit of Jesse Barfield.
Andruw’s comps are interesting – mainly in that no one really has a close similarity to score to him.
And Frenchy has an arm like Barfield, who had a cannon.
Barfield is Armas’ closest comp, though he walked more. Pete Incaviglia has similar OBP/SLGs but lower batting averages, and of course not nearly the defensive value of the other members of the group.
how bad does this sound
Saturday: Braves (RHP Jason Schiell, 0-2, 6.39) at Reds (RHP Kyle Lohse, 2-5, 7.10), 1:20 p.m. ET
the murph’s first full season: 42 walks in 530 AB’s. a .284 obp and .226 BA. Francoeur and Murph were very similar in approach. hopefully jeff matures into the player murph was in his latter days.
42 walks? At his current pace, Francoeur would need about 1500 AB to reach 42 walks. Their levels of production are similar but the shape of that production is wholly different. Physically he is very similar to Murphy but he’s not close as a player.
Frenchy is on a 15 BB/136 K pace.
He’s also on a 30 HR, 113 RBI, 88 Run pace.
Bizarre.
its called swinging for the fences…
I told you Laroche was our offense.
Adam is a far superior to Francoeur as an offensive player.
Adam gets walks, Frenchy takes them back to the dugout.
But hey we still have Essex Snead….
____________________________!!!!!!
(fill in the blank)
“Braves (RHP Jason Schiell, 0-2, 6.39) at Reds (RHP Kyle Lohse, 2-5, 7.10), ”
This is in Cincinatti? Normally the Braves only have fireworks shows at home on Friday….
Larcohe might get his 30 in that game….
Buster Olney is reporting that Andruw was placed on waivers yesterday. In order for the braves to trade him someone would have to claim him and he could then only be traded to that team. Does this mean they are trying to trade him before he becomes a 10-5-guy next week? I dont like it. KEEP ANDRUW
If someone claims him they could just pull him back…or they could let that team have him. If no one claims him then they could trade him. I imagine someone will claim him, and the Braves will pull him back.
If that’s the case then what’s the point i n doing it in the first place? And don’t you think Andruw’s wondering if they even want him here?
Because if he gets through waivers, then you can trade him.
Most player get put on waivers
An article in the AJC explains how it works:
http://www.ajc.com/sports/content/sports/braves/stories/0804andruw.html
Okay, that adds a little clarity. I just dont want him to leave. We got nothin without him, at the plate or in th field. I know he will be tough to re-sign, but I wish they would come out and say that they are going to try. Man we need an owner….
The discourse on Francoeur is interesting. Has anyone here besides Mac played the Fraoncoeur game over at Sabernomics? You guess what Frenchy’s final avg./obp./slg. is going to be.
The Tony Aramas Sr. comparison is scary. I remember reading that he was an all or nothing player for the A’s. The stats dont’ lie. Geez that guy had a 14 year career and ended up with a .287 career OBP.
Just for kicks and giggles, Kingman’s age 23 season line:
225 .303 .462 765
with 29 hr and 51 walks. that year Kingman only had 104 hits leading to the lousy BA. Kingman averaged 51 walks per season and a .236 career BA.
The Braves have painted themselves into a corner. They don’t have alternative to Francoeur for this season. He has done well enough in the traditional Triple Crown stats that he will have to really fall off the face of the earth to be sent down to AAA. This season or next. I really think that OBP matters one whit to the the Braves. They don’t teach plate discipline nor do I think that they place a very high value on it. They see the raw physical ability, the decent triple crown stats and the good makeup and base their marketing campaign around him. I think that he can be a good player but right now he is a wash. He is hurting the team as much as he is helping it.
I meant to say that OPB DOESN’T matter one whit to the Braves.
Lets face it the Braves ARE NOT a team that is interested in sabernomics as a method for evaluating players.
Landogardner, Adam LaRoche has been a far more valuable offensive contributor this season that Francoeur. Face it dude.
For those that are calling for Frenchy to be sent down this season to learn plate discipline or that he can be punished into plate discipline by puttinig him lower in the order or by benching him, I’m not convinced its that easy. I can only think of one guy, Sammy Sosa, who totally changed his game by learning to take a walk. Ok that and some hgh and roids but you know what I mean. If anyone else can come up with an example I’d be more encouraged that Jeff can become a star.
Dang NOT sabernomics. Sabermetrics. Geez I can’t type worth a damn.
I have to say, I was a Francouer backer over LaRoche but that has changed. laRoche the last month has been far more valuable.
Again, even Sosa wasn’t as phobic of walks as Frenchy. In his first full season (1990), Sosa drew 29 walks in 532 AB. Jeff has half as many UIBB in one-third more ABs, last year and this.
The hard fact is that unless Jeff learns to walk or hits .300+ consistently, he’ll *never* have value to the Braves, and shouldn’t be in the major leagues. Sending him to Richmond therefore isn’t just punishment; it will tell the Braves if he really is the next Brad Komminsk.
As for whom to bring up, I’d seriously like to see what Gregor Blanco can do. He’s likely to be our CF if/ when Andruw leaves after next year.
For all of Francoeur’s obvious drawbacks, I tend to doubt that he’ll ever be as dreadful as Brad Komminsk. I still see that mechanical swing in my sleep.
Heck, that was too good for a comment. It’s now its own post.
Time to rebuild..
Trade Hudson and Jones in the off season(if tradeable)
wasted money
There is another Marc on this threat that is not me, so one of us has to change.
I agree with Johnny; sending Frenchy to Richmond at this point isn’t going to teach him plate discipline. And kicking his ass isn’t either. Baseball is not like football where you improve by trying harder. If anything, Frenchy is probably too anxious to succeed and is pressing. And he has an aggressive (football-style) temperament. You can’t change that by fining him or sending him down. If you don’t like it, you are just going to have to find someone better. Or, hope that he can somehow improve. And while I think that people were giving him too much praise when he hit some big homeruns, I think people are also too down on him now; it’s not as if he has not contributed at all. But he is a young player that is having his ups and downs; no one knows at this point which way he will go, but it makes no sense to say he is not a major league player.
I also agree that much of the problem is the Braves’ organizational approach, which disdains sabermetric-type analysis and really cares little for OBP. This has long been an issue with the Braves. The teams that went to the World Series were free-swinging teams that could often be shut down by good pitching. Nothing has changed over the years except that the pitching isn’t as good.
By the way, I have an extra ticket to the Braves/Nats game on August 15 in Washington. If anyone is interested, my e-mail is mschneider@ftc.gov.
Laroche
G AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI SB CS BB SO
98 321 54 86 25 0 20 59 0 2 35 81
Francoeur
G AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI SB CS BB SO
104 432 58 113 14 4 20 74 1 6 9 86
Laroche
Avg OBP SLG OPS
.268 .336 .533 869
Francoeur
Avg OBP SLG OPS
.262 .284 .451 736
Both are very good defenders with excellent arms.
Laroche is 6 points better in BA, 42 points better in OBP, 82 points better in slugging, and 133!!! points better in OPS….
Laroche has been the better offensive player this year by far, escpecially in the area of *SLUGGING*.
Notice the walk ratio 3.9 to 1.0 in LaRoche’s favor.
5 less strikeouts, difference being Francoeur makes contact BUT not as WELL as Laroche.
Hey MAC, could you edit my post to make sense?
I got the lines screwed up.
Thank you MT.