ESPN.com – MLB – Box Score – Diamondbacks at Braves
The low point. I think this is the absolute lowest point the Braves have been in the last fifteen years. Lower than when they were way back of the Giants in 1993 (before the McGriff trade). Lower than when the strike hit. Lower than two years ago when I started talking about who the Braves should trade for prospects. They just suffered a four-game sweep at home at the hands of the Diamondbacks, and none of the games was a one-run game. In none of them did they play particularly well and lose. In none of them did they lead. Only the first game was close throughout.
Jorge Sosa gave up four runs in the first two innings. He settled down after that, but there’s little call for pitchers who only pitch well when they’re down four runs. Well, except in the Braves’ bullpen. The good: four strikeouts and no walks. The bad: two homers, nine hits, five runs, all earned, in six innings.
The Braves clawed back to 5-3 down on a two-run homer by Renteria in the seventh. (Renteria drove in all three runs for the Braves.) But they couldn’t get anything in the eighth. McBride — virtually the only bright spot in this series — and Remlinger kept it in reach.
Then the man. The legend. Reitsma. He gave up a single and a double, then a three-run homer to Babe Easley. He got two, then allowed a homer to Tony Clark. 9-3. I can hardly complain. It wouldn’t have been right to not lose a game by six runs.
The Braves got three hits from Marcus and two each from Renteria and LaRoche, but only two from the rest of the team combined. Betemit got a start at third and had a walk.
Three against the Natspos, who will probably look like the Big Red Machine by the time we’re done with them.
You’re right, this is the lowest of the low.
And you know what?
I give up.
That’s right, I give up. I’ve tried to deny it for who knows how long, tried to explain it away. But the Braves just aren’t that good, and they don’t appear to get it to together anytime soon. Now that I have such low expectations, anything they do that’s good is cake.
Reitsma=the worst 90+ mph fastball pitcher with “good stuff” to ever play this game.
I’m actually glad this has happened. If we had continued to win one, lose one, etc, all anyone could say is “we’re close” and nothing would be done. When you hit rock bottom, that lets people know that changes have to come.
I don’t know. The Braves were six games under .500 at this point in the 2004 season, I think, but came back to win the division by ten games, so it can be done. The way the team keeps scratching out runs to get back in the game gives me hope for the future.
But one thing is certain: Reitsma has to go.
the last time people on this site were THIS pissed off? I don’t remember. It was either when Millwood got traded or when Marte was traded.
Sure, it can be done, but the Mets and Phillies both have to perform like the last Braves week crap in order for that to be possible. And I do not see that happening. Nope.
I was glad Marte was traded.
I don’t know why but I have a feeling something good is going to happen. Things are never as bad as they seem.
Hudson pitches tomorrow. Let’s turn this around.
Nah. We weren’t this pissed when Marte got traded. We knew we were getting something valuable back. When we traded Millwood, we were getting a 26 year old catcher “prospect”.
The announcers did say we were 33-39 in 2004, and won the division by 10 games, but I believe we won it with 92 wins. That won’t happen this year as many have pointed out. The Mets and Phillies are just too good.
I can’t imagine what Bobby Cox is thinking right now. What does he have to do to 1) get some consistency from his talent and 2) to get some extra talent from somewhere other than Atlanta? As much as I wanna see something done, I don’t know what you do. Do you sell the farm to get a frontline starting pitcher, power bat, etc.? What good is bullpen help? We can’t get a lead.
I’m kind of with Brad on this. The past few years I’ve wondered ‘is this the year it’s gonna finally end?’ And then the Braves somehow, some way, claw their way back to contention, actually win the division by a fair margin and, because of their obvious mediocrity (when compared to other playoff teams), get run in the first round. Perhaps they really need to hit rock bottom so that upper management can stop relying on the wonders of ‘Bobby Cox in June and July,’ can stop praying some dude nobody’s heard of since 1997 can save the bullpen and/or rotation, can stop fooling itself that this team is as good as the Cardinals or whoever else represents the NL in any given year, and start dealing with the problems.
But they’ll probably just sign Reitsma to an extension.
It was 96 wins, Rob.
And the Giants just scored twice in the top of the 10th to make it 6-4 Giants. Just three outs away. Come on, Giants.
You know Skip and Pete mentioned the last time the Braves were swept in a 4 game series at home was 1995(against the Phillies in May 1995)? Remember how that year ended?
Not saying we’re going to win a WS Championship like that team, BUT i’m certainly not giving up! Our team doesn’t give up, so why should I? Unfortunately our bullpen can’t keep us close enough to give us a chance to complete our comebacks.
The low point though HAD to have been two years ago at about this time(33-39 in late June). We won the division by 10 games after being down I believe 6 GB at that point. We won 90-100 games(I think it was 96 games).
It’s frustrating right now, but certainly i’m not giving up b/c historically the Braves just don’t quit!
— Bravesfan1
Armando Benitez strikes again….
And the Mets tied it.
Okay, NOW things are as bad as they seem. For Christ’s sake, you were just one out away.
Although this is easily the low point of the season, I’m not giving up. We’ve been in worse shape than this. The rest of the season starts tomorrow.
Andy Marte sucked. Getting Renteria for him was a steal. I sometimes have to laugh at the hoard minor-league players mentality some people have. When you have a chance to get Edgar Renteria for somebody who hasn’t proven squat, such as Andy Marte, you do it. Minor leaguers are just as useful for making trades as they are for eventually bringing up. If you never trade anybody for a proven veteran, you never have a good team…it’s that simple. The trick is knowing which ones to part with and knowing which ones to keep. Marte never did anything worthwhile and hasn’t come close to doing anything worthwhile since. Yet everyone around the league thought he was going to be a star. Hmmm…sounds like someone to part with and get something from to me.
And this is certainly the low point of the last two years, but I remind you that we still haven’t gotten our ass kicked by the Kansas City Royals yet. Therefore this isn’t lower than that point two years ago. Now, if we get bounced by Florida next week, come back and we’ll talk about it.
The Muts are on pace to win 98 games, based on their winning percentage today. We gotta get on our horse to beat that…
I agree with Nick about Marte. I don’t think he sucked, Reitsma is sucking right now (HA! Did you see that? The unofficial spokesperson for The Chris Reitsma Fan Club just said he’s sucking right now), but he wasn’t the sure-fire Hall of Famer people were making him out to be. I was in the break room of Best Buy (I work at Best Buy), and after seeing the ESPN Bottomline saying we traded Marte for Renteria, I was happy. People later that day said that Renteria was a .250 hitter with terrible defense. They had the bad defense part down, but he is absolutely raking this year.
The good thing is that the Mets are headed out West to play the Dodgers and Diamondbacks, two very good teams with lots of pop in their bats. After that, they face the Phils. I’m hoping the schedule will even things out in the Braves’ favor.
It’ll even out if the Mets get their ass kicked.
The Mets haven’t played as hot as they did in April. If they play like they did in May every month for the rest of the season, we can do this.
In the meantime, avoid ESPN’s ‘Baseball Tonight’ and SportsCenter like the bird flu.
I’m with Dan. The Mets’ pitching can’t match up. Do they really expect El Duque to save them? The Dodgers were hitting the ball all over the place when the Braves faced them, and that’s with Kent and a bunch of others injured. No way the Mets come off their West-coast tour leading by six or seven games.
Giants up one in the top of the 12th – 2 outs, bases loaded for the pitcher’s spot.
Bold Prediction: On July 1, the Braves will be leading the division by 1 game.
Giants win in 12.
Thank goodness!
Thank God. But I can’t take much more of sucking, something has to be done.
Right now, Bear Bryant is up in Heaven, shaking his head at an empty beer glass, quietly wishing that Bob Horner would come out of retirement.
I can take the losing. —As someone mentioned above, maybe it will move the organizational philosophy beyond the playoff mediocrity rut they seem to have embraced.— It’s the losing in those wtf colored jerseys that sears the eyes so searingly.
C’mon fellas, one or the other please.
It’s hard to imagine, but (thanks to the Giants) this weekend wasn’t as bad as it shoulda/coulda been.
Gotta put this week behind us, win a game, win a series & begin to play well again.
Bring back Kolb, he’s better than Reitsma
Obviously, this has been (and continues to be) profoundly ugly. I enjoyed Mac’s write up more than usual–real schadenfreude.
No, it is not too late, but Braves’ fans have to be realistic: this team has tons of problems. Sure, we did well on the road trip, but it didn’t hurt to play the Cubs who had lost 20 out of 25.
I fear that either the Braves will make some major changes, or this slow and ugly decline (from the 1990s) will persist.
reitsma has to go. i hope the braves can find some type of mysterious ailment for brian jordan like he had for part of the last year’s season. i would love to see a ton of changes take place in house before we actually try to trade for bullpen help. move sosa to close, put thomson in the pen (when davies returns or sooner), bring james into the rotation, move betemit to 1st, bring up prado, dfa reitsma, jordan, and pete orr, and trade langerhans and laroche (while he’s hot) for someone to play left that will put people in the stands. attendance f’ing sux the last couple of games. or plan b: trade everyone we can for dontrelle willis because he has what this team is lacking. PASSION!
Have any pitchers been commenting on McDowell recently? I know it has been beaten to death, but Betemit needs to get some at bats. Let’s hope McCann gets back soon. Any first basemen on the trading block? Let’s bring Coach Crime out of retirement.
I think someone mentioned it earlier, the one positive thing about this series is that it should be a reality check to JS that something has to be done. I actually think Reitsma’s performance today was a blessing in disguise. We probably would have lost anyway and this makes it just a little easier for Reitsma to officially lose his job.
We definitely need to trade for bullpen help. I will agree that Thomson’s one of the few replaceable guys on the team that has trade value. The only problem with that is that we’ll have to get consistent performances from three of the following four starters if trading for Thomson proves beneficial – Ramirez, Sosa, James, Davies. Unfortunately, I’m afraid that this may not happen.
Betemit has trade value, but if Chipper, Renteria or Giles get hurt, we’re in huge trouble. I guess I would take my chances with trading Thomson. However, if he doesn’t turn it around soon, his trade value will drop like a rock. Losing KJ for the year to injury is a big blow. It also hurts that Boyer is gone – I think he would have made a good setup man – better than just about anyone we have!
I will tip my hat to JS if he’s able to pull off a decent trade. I just don’t see too much hope at this point.
I agree with td, Reitsma may finally be done with getting save oppurtunities.
Bobby should be shot if he gives Reitsma another chance at a save opportunity….
I’m not ready to throw in the towel just yet, its a long season. JS needs to make a trade or two. Bobby Howry lit us up in Chicago, I would imagine he is probably available. Also, with Moore in KC and maybe Kasten in D.C., wouldnt you think we would have an inside track to making a deal or two with those clubs?
Maybe I’m wrong on this (..and I usually am..with everything.. )
But..I always get the feeling like the Braves are missing that extra something. I mean..certain teams, when they’re down by 5 runs..you’re still afraid that they will come back..but with the Braves..when they’re down by 5..I’m getting skeptical. It’s basically game over.
Or, the other way around. Certain teams have that good bullpen..and you when they’re closer comes in..it’s lights out. With us, even when there’s a 7 run lead..you’re feeling nervous because of what;s looming in the pen.
That mentality..that electricity..I’m just not feeling it, and especially not this year. Maybe that’s why we always collapse in the post season..
I’d just want to see the Braves go out there and fight and claw..and never give up..and never give up an at bat. I mean,..stop swinging at the first pitch..work the count a bit.
Just see Turner Field rocking..like you see other stadiums..
I dunno…maybe it’s too much asking.. 🙁
The reason that the Braves have 1 WS title in 15 years is absolutely not because of the pitching/defense despite the patchwork bullpens they’ve had pretty much every year except a couple throughout the run.
The offense is the problem, and has been the problem. Even when we had Jones, Jones and Sheffield there’s been too much falloff after those three. If you look at other successful teams’ lineups there are sometimes *no* holes. Our lineups are as full of holes as swiss cheese.
For those mentioning Marte earlier, I’m convinced that guy will be a huge bust. Sometimes you just don’t have “it” and he didn’t seem to have it.
Frankly, not only is this team not very good, it’s boring as hell as well. I noticed attendance that was not great to begin with, is off pretty sharply. If this team isn’t sold soon, this decline is going to precipitate. With Time Warner this team is hopeless, IMO.
Here is this…..
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2006/baseball/mlb/06/05/gregg.stroke.ap/index.html
Never my favorite ump (even before ’97), but here’s to his recovery.
I told you the d-backs were good. And I have no idea what got into the giants. Bonds is dealing out the cream & clear to his team I suppose. Watch out for the nats, they are playing great ball right now, and soriano is just on fire!
Cheers
Offense isn’t the problem this year. The Braves are third in the NL in runs scored. Meanwhile, they’re third from bottom in the NL in runs allowed, and they’ll be next to worst once Clemens joins Houston.
The problem is Leo left for Baltimore, and now the Braves are giving up runs by the bucketload.
do you really think leo had that much of an impact? he cant turn water into wine, and he most definitely cant turn shit into gold. the braves need to do something to put the “gusto” back in the team. i am afraid its going to have to be at the expense of about 3-4 players. players arent excited, fans arent excited. everyone loses. we need someone to light a fire under our ass and to jumpstart this ballclub. lets get dontrelle!
The problem isn’t offense or defense or pitching… it’s inconsistancy in all three categories. We have seen flashes of goodness (that would be slightly less than flashes of greatness) from all three but we rarely seem to get all three going in the same game. Lately we can’t seem to get two of the three going at the same time. I think we can scratch out more wins if we can just get one of the three to be consistant and then try to shore up the other two. It seems to me this past couple of weeks I’ve watched us blow plays defensively; I’ve watched us strike out and gidp by the bucket load and I’ve watched our pitchers throw bp. I’ve also seen top ten plays made in the field; I’ve seen balls crushed and timely base hits after long at bats and I’ve seen lights out pitching from starters and some of the bullpen. It’s all just way too inconsistent…. and I don’t even have an idea how to address that problem.
When only two teams in the NL have allowed more runs, that signifies a problem area. When only two teams in the NL have scored more runs, that might be an area that’s not a problem.
If inconsistency was a problem, you would expect the actual win-loss of the team to be lower than the expected win-loss based on runs scored and allowed. It’s not that different. This implies that consistency isn’t the problem. The inconsistency the team displays is not abnormal for a major league ball club.
The reason I point to Leo is that I look at what’s different between last year, when the Braves were good at preventing runs, and this year, when they’re not. There’s one major defensive change. The starting rotation is the same. The bullpen is different, but do you really think the Braves are worse this year than with Kolb (5.93), Bernero (6.51), and Colon (5.28) pulling down the most innings after Reitsma? On its face, it looks like the major changes are the defensive drop to Renteria and the loss of Leo.
as i recall, our bullpen was almost in the same situation last year at this time until there was major reconstruction. the bullpen sucked almost as badly last year until reshuffling. that is what will have to happen this year, except i think it will have to come from outside the organization. the bullpen didnt REALLY get straightened out until we got a closer.
I meant over 15 years not just this year. It’s pretty obviously pitching this year but my point was that bad/mediocre bullpens haven’t really hurt us in this run. Struggling offense, especially in the playoffs has.
At this time last year, Atlanta was #1 in the NL in runs allowed. (Thanks, ESPN.com)
do you guys think we could trade for a starter, put james in the rotation, and use thomson and sosa as setup and closer? that seems to be a good strat to start with.
in a good way or bad way joey?
We’re all wondering if this weekend will be enough to bring change.
We’re more afraid if what will happen if change doesn’t happen.
Start here:
He’s played every game. He’s batting .247, with a .260 OBP. He’s averaging almost one K per game, which means we get nothing from his AB. Even Mickey Mantle got sent down. Hit the bench, Wonderboy! If you can’t perform, you can’t keep playing very day.
He’s yielded 74 hits in 62 innings. He’s giving up 6 hits and 2 walks per start, and when did he ever make through the seventh? I don’t care how much of a fiery redhead he is, find somebody else beside Thompson.
His record is 1-7and his ERA is above 5. The announcers say he’s pitching better than his record, but if you give up 12 HR’s in 10 starts, who’re they kidding. No reason for starting Sosa.
He’s paid to manage. HOF caliber. Not easily rattled. Do something!
Noted GM/author. Smarter than the rest of us. Prove it!
It’s not a big mystery. It’s called poor performance. And I hate it.
The announcers did say we were 33-39 in 2004, and won the division by 10 games, but I believe we won it with 92 wins. That won’t happen this year as many have pointed out. The Mets and Phillies are just too good.
I haven’tt bothered to check on the Phils, but the Mets have gone 23-20 after their 10-2 start. that doesn’t mean we should ignore the start, but they’ve returned somewhat to earth.
But I’m with Mac. This just _feels_ like a mediocre team. It does not at all feel like a team that can reel off, say, a couple of 20-9 months.
I still think we are one pitcher away. Too bad they type of pitcher we need won’t be avaliable until July
One thing that concerns me this year is that while our offense and pitching have been up and down, our defense has been close to disastrous. Renteria kicks the ball around, Chipper looks about 45 out there, and Francouer’s defense seems to have taken a definite turn southward.
I have no idea what to suggest, except trades, and lots of them. The Braves’ announcers said something stupid the other day when Betemit hit another ball to the warning track: “This guy’s a starting player, but who would you replace in the starting lineup?” Look around! Other than Andruw Jones and Brian McCann, I don’t think anyone’s untouchable. Move Renteria to third, Betemit to short, Chipper to first, Diaz to left, Langerhans/Francouer platoon in right. Jorge Sosa for closer, Macay McBride and Kenny Ray as set-up men, and every other reliever takes a long walk off a short pier. If Bobby needs me, I’ll do the pushing myself.
Yeah, Sosa doesn’t need to be in the rotation right now. Why are they so afraid of giving Chuck James a shot? Is he really that much worse than his numbers?
Thomson hasn’t been great, but he’s been acceptible. I can’t think of anyone who could be put in the rotation who would be any better.
I agree about a corner outfield change, mostly because Matt Diaz has to be wondering what exactly he needs to do to get a shot at regular playing time. I can see the argument for sending Francoeur down. I’d probably go for benching Langerhans instead.
The problem with a platoon, AAR, is that Francoeur really needs to learn to hit RHP. AAA could be the place to do it, but he’s not going to get any better at it facing only lefties. Also, Langerhans hasn’t even been hitting RHP that well.
Joey, that’s a good point about Francouer. I guess my main thought is that right now he sucks a lot, and Langerhans sucks worse, and we need to figure out a way to minimize the offensive damage they’re doing us while at the same time keeping their defense in the lineup. Besides, if we bench Langerhans AND send down Frenchy, who plays right field? (I guess we could teach Betemit to play the outfield.)
I know you didn’t say this, but I don’t think we should DFA Pete Orr, by the way–I think we should just teach him to be a slap hitter/pinch runner who beats out infield hits to deep short and steals bases off the bench. He has one useful talent, his wheels, and we should use it.
i said that aar. i agree we probably dont need to dfa orr considering we barely have any speed as is, but is speed a good reason to keep a player on a mlb roster? he has no other value. does prado have equivalent speed to orr? i guess that would be a bad move becasue prado would have nowhere to play and his development would stop. i was just frustrated and i wanted to take my frustrations out on everyone i think sux (orr, laroche, reitsma, etc).
Soriano is on pace to hit like 60 HR! Maybe we should get him.
A.A.R.. I thought of Betemit in the outfield as well but the announcers said y’erday that Betemit had trouble in the outfield during winter ball..
Can the WB pitch?
It looks to me like no one on the team is too concerned about the way they are playing. The vets look like they know the team isn’t any good and the kids look like they are just happy to be in the bigs. Either Bobby, Smoltz, or a Jones needs to do something to fire up this team. Maybe not the Jonses because I think they are the most to blame for the way this team looks like they are just going through the motions. If the team doesn’t care if they suck, why should we?
I think runs scored has the potential to mislead. If a team scores 20 runs in a game they win 20-1 that’s good but they only needed to score two runs to win that game. The team can have three scoreless games they lose 2-0, 1-0, 1-0 and they still overall look like they are a high scoring team which should be winning lots of games. If we take the same 20 runs and spread it out *consistently* across the 4 games we have 5-2, 5-2, 5-1, 5-1 for 4 wins. I have not done any deep analysis of the numbers for the Braves this year but they have (unless I counted wrong) 23 games where they scored 0-3 runs, 20 games where they scored 4-8 runs, and 13 games where they scored 9 or more runs. This seems like inconsistent run production to me. I realize a certain amount of inconsistency is to be expected but it seems to me these days we never know what to expect from the bats… will it be record number of strike outs or a ton of runs? The other thing to notice is so many of the high scoring games we’ve had this year have been high scoring by both teams (whether we won or lost). This might be an indicator of a problem with starting pitching, bullpen, defense or any combination of the three. Pete Van Wieren said this weekend one of the worst things about these losses was the Braves had managed to lose just about every way possible. If the problem were just pitching I would expect us to always get blown out but we lose close, low scoring games as often as we are blown out. I think if we fix one area then maybe we will get a domino effect and the other areas will come around. Fix the bullpen and the starters will relax. The starters relax and start performing better, the bats and defense won’t press so hard and their performance will improve. Then we will see consistency at all areas of the team and start reeling off the wins.
We need a reliever who can strike people out. We have a bunch of groud ball pitchers and our defense sucks.We need a guy who can throw it by some people.
Maybe Chuck James is being stretched out in order for him to be showcased. So far, he’s the only pitcher who hasn’t dropped in value (i.e. Thomson, Sosa, Lerew). I think a lot of teams would be interested if he were on the market.
Martin Prado looks like he’s ready to take Pete Orr’s place as the utility IF assuming he gets over his hamstring injury quickly. I was impressed with his brief time in Atlanta earlier this year and he’s hit well at AA and AAA as well.
Yeah, Sosa doesn’t need to be in the rotation right now. Why are they so afraid of giving Chuck James a shot? Is he really that much worse than his numbers?
well, they are stretching him out to starter pitch counts at richmond, which suggests they are willing
I agree about a corner outfield change, mostly because Matt Diaz has to be wondering what exactly he needs to do to get a shot at regular playing time.
I just noticed yesterday that Diaz is up to an almost Francoeuresque 79 at bats without a walk. Good .329 BA, mediocre .329 OBP. But still 70 points abover Francoeur’s…
I want Jason Bay. I want him in every unholy way imaginable. I would trade Jeff Francouer for him, straight up.
And Jeff Francouer’s such a golden boy we might be able to sucker Littlefield into accepting. Please God, let this trade happen. I would totally start going back to Shabbat services again.
I want Bay aswell..but I would’nt want to give up Jeff. Jeffrey strikes out, never walks..swings at the first pitch waayy too often..but I still want him on the team. Hot damn I have problems…
I have not responded to posts on this page for a few days now. Mostly because I’m so frustrated with this team that I’m having trouble putting it in words. I can’t even watch the games lately. I’ve come to the point where until I see some box scores without crappy pitching and 15 strikeouts per game, I’m gonna have trouble following along. There has to be changes coming. I’ve been thinking this for weeks now, but this weekend was the climax. JS needs to do something or let us know he is in rebuilding mode.
We’re not going to change positions with a bunch of players. We’re not going to trade our bad players for good ones. We’re not going to take on more salary.
If there are moves to be made, I trust JS will make them, but it’s gotta make sense. Yeah, we’re gonna need something different in the bullpen. Not sure how that’s gonna happen, but I’m pretty sure that it will. (Remember in 1997 when JS/Cox dumped almost the entire bullpen?) The players who make up our lineup have succeeded in the past; I’m not sure I can say that about our bullpen.
Bottom Line: Trades or not, the guys we have must play better. That’s how things got turned around in ’04 & ’05. If they don’t, we’re sunk—-and that’s that. There is no miracle cure here.
Let’s win this series (WASH is a crappy team, remember?) and creep back into this thing. The Mets aren’t exactly setting the world on fire right now either, and they’re heading West.
Sure, we gotta begin to play consistent ball, but think of it this way: It’s June 5 and we must make up 5 games in about 120 days.
AAR,
TightToyNight, huh? Someone’s a Television fan. (Me, too.)
What a bunch of baloney saying “we don’t care!” What a crock of dung! But it’s like clockwork, everytime a team struggles the card fans always play is “they have no heart, don’t care,” BLAH BLAH BLAH!
Do you expect guys to show excitement over going 1-6? Wow, if you do your expectations are a little too high. To show excitement we’re going to have to play better and win more games. Then the excitement will come back!
I’m glad their not excited! They shouldn’t be! Are you excited about how we’ve played recently? Sound to me like your the one that “doesn’t care!”
— Bravesfan1
I’d trade Francoeur AND Salty AND any other player in the minors for Bay and not think twice about it.
A bird in hand is worth three in the bush, as they say. 😉