Discuss amongst yourselves. Remember, last year the Hudson deal came through at pretty much the last minute — the GMs supposedly were going home when they worked it out. And last year, Beane was all but holding his breath until JS gave him Marcus. JS said no, and eventually got a pretty good deal. Trust him until he screws up, okay?
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Mac, ever the voice of reason. In John we trust.
In John we trust.
I guess. As usual, I’ll be hoping an praying he does absolutley nothing. If he trades Marte that may be the end of the line for me. There is only so much I can take, and trading away a future All-Star thirdbaseman to fill a hole at SS that doesn’t really exist would probably be over the limit.
I dont have a problem with trading Marte, if its the right deal. He’s blocked by Chipper, we have no Idea if he can play first. So do we not trade him based on what we think he can do, several seasons from now? If we can get a good shortstop, with a short contract, and a reliever, and/or a lead-off type hitter for him, I say dont let the door hit him in the ass on the way out.
Yeah, I wouldn’t care if we stood as is. We really need pitching (the kind you can always get in the spring) and a bat (also the kind of bat you can get in the spring.) We don’t need a front end starter, like we did last year. If we get any big names, it should be a closer.
Mike MacDougal is one of the names that the Mets may want for Benson. HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA!!! I say let them have him. Looper part two!
Mark Bowman is so dumb. He’s like Ken Rosenthal but with a smaller paycheck. He actually thinks the Braves are considering including McCann or Salty with Marte in a deal to acquire Renteria. No way.
I trust Schuerholz. He has the very real opportunity to forever break that trust with some of these trade proposals/rumors, though.
But we do have a SS hole. I can’t see how it can be described otherwise. Betemit has not been a full-time SS since 2001.
I’m not saying he can’t play the position, but I can see why the front office and field staff are concerned.
He’s blocked by Chipper, we have no Idea if he can play first.
He’s a former shortstop and a big guy, why on earth couldn’t he play first? He could probably play it as well as that big lug we have over there now his first day. Dispite what you’ve seen from Piazza, playing first isn’t actually hard.
So do we not trade him based on what we think he can do, several seasons from now?
Uh, yeah. Otherwise you are the Mets, and even they were smart enough to hold on to David Wright.
NYB, if he traded a future all-star third baseman then maybe that would be a fair assessment, but how do you know Marte’s a future all-star? He’s 22 years old. There a legions of former highly touted prospects at age 22 who never turned into anything. Maybe Marte will, maybe he won’t, but for now all he has is potential. Which is fine, but it won’t keep you warm at night. Which is not to say we should trade him or not trade him. But saying that if JS did deal him that would somehow be over the line is just silly.
I’d be more than happy to go into the season with what we have. I’d love to see which guys from the mix of KJ, Ryan and Francoeur are going to step up and play like Atlanta superstars (my gut says KJ will join Francouer with that status.)
Keep Marte. Start Betemit.
If you upgrade anywhere, do it at first base. I like LaRoche and still see the potential for more growth, but if we want to improve, that’s the position to do it at.
Let Marte refine his skills at AAA next year. Keep him hungry. Or, I like the idea someone presented about mixing him in at first base. Every now and then he can spell Chipper at third to keep his skills sharp there. See if he’s versatile.
The 2005 Braves are a dynamic mix. The Mets’ moves haven’t scared me in the least. Our team is good as it is- our bullpen next year can’t be any worse, and the youngsters there stand to be better.
The only thing that saddens me is that Leo is gone.
I wouldn’t mind bringing in a guy as a Belliard type to sub for Wilson in late innings (Tony Pena?)If that doesn’t work out, then maybe we can get Lugo at the deadline.
There a legions of former highly touted prospects at age 22 who never turned into anything.
Actually, the number of guys who have accomplished what he has, at the age he accomplished them is a short list. That he did these things in the Braves stable of pitcher’s parks is well past remarkable. I think you number among the many that don’t understand that he’s not just another prospect.
nyb-
I can remember quite a few hot prospects that turned to nothing, Brad Kominsk anyone? Tyler Houston?
I’m not saying Marte isnt going to be a good MLB 3B, he very well may be. But we have one already, his name is Chipper Jones, your familiar with him, arent you?
All I am saying is, we shouldnt hold on to Marte on premise of “what if” . Should we trade him just to trade him? NO. Should we trade him if it will significantly help our ball club? YES
Hi JS trade for Tejada give them Marte estrada Horacio Kelly Johnson
BTW, Kevn Kennedy on MLB on XM, said not to be suprised if Tejada is moved, not sure what his contract is, but it would have to be in the ball park of what Furcal was offered, correct?
Yeah it is ESPN.com: 2005 Salary: $10,781,206
I think we would have to send Marte, James, Davies, and KJ. Andruw Jones may have to factor in that too.
Actually, Tejada’s contract is lower than Furcal’s.
The more I hear about this Renteria deal, the more my stomach begins to hurt. I threw up when I woke up this morning b/c I started to think about it.
ajc’s dave o’brien is on 790 the zone right now saying the Devil Rays have agreed to the Marte + prospect to Tampa Bay…it’s all on the Sox eating some cash. it could happen at any minute if the braves/red sox agree on the cash amount.
he goes on to say that the braves are willing to part with Salty for a closer.
is anyone else hearing this?
But we have one already, his name is Chipper Jones, your familiar with him, arent you?
Injury prone guy, becomes more of a butcher at third with each passing year, would actually make a good firstbaseman, runs created has fallen four straight years? Yeah, I’ve heard of him.
All I am saying is, we shouldnt hold on to Marte on premise of “what if” . Should we trade him just to trade him? NO. Should we trade him if it will significantly help our ball club? YES
This is the kind of thinking that makes the Mets, well, the Mets. What seperates the Braves is that they are able to compete while also integrating their top prospects into the lineup. Marte is probably the best hitting prospect we’ve had since Andruw Jones (Andruw hit .217 in his first cup of coffee for those of you worried about Marte brief look). These are the guys you make room for.
With ARod at third, Tejada is the best shortstop in the game now. I’d give up a whole lot for him. Would Marte/KJ/(James or Lerew)/Thomson be enough? We could turn around and ship out Estrada for a prospect or two after that.
Ken Rosenthal is reporting that a couple teams have heavy interest in Betemit. Maybe if this Renteria deal goes through and we then flip Betemit for something valuable, it might not be so bad.
He says the Tigers are most interested, but turned down Betemit for Monroe straight up. They want a prospect too.
Yea, Salty/McCann AND Marte for Renteria…No way in hell is that happenin.
I sure wish we had a way to hang on to Andy Marte. I think that kid is going to make us regret moving him someday (if we do). Otherwise, bring in a top notch starter for him. Edgar Renteria at shortstop will be two years in a row Scheurholz has made an unwise swap. Some might argue the J.D. Drew trade constitutes three straight bad deals.
I think if we could just get ourselves a solid lead off hitter and a closer, and maybe another reliever, we’d be in pretty good shape. If Wilson buckles, we can make the necessary changes in season.
Remember Mark DeRosa? He stunk it up, and we dealt with it. Yes, we replaced him with Chipper, but we replaced Chipper with a rookie and a utility/journey man. Think about that for a second.
Craig Monroe played right for the Tigers, but I think he would be a nice fit in left. I wonder if we sent WB and KJ if we could get Nook Logan to play left.
Nah, that is a bad idea
J.D. Drew was an unwise swap?
What are you, on crack?
Drew was an unwise SIGNING by the Dodgers last year. When he was a Brave, he only put up career numbers and played a great right field.
It was unwise not to offer him arbitration.
agreed.
BIG NEWS BIG NEWS!!!! Estrada is gone for two relievers according to Resenthal
http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/story/5147106
How much longer is Tejada’s contract?
were these two guys worth Estrada or could we have gotten more?
Apparently we just traded Estrada to the D-backs for Lance Cormier and Oscar Villareal?
And I think Tejada is signed through 2009. If you want to get him, prepare to give up every single prospect we have. It’s not worth it.
Ummmmm….are these D’backs any good?
That’s all we could get for Estrada? What the hell?!?
I was excited until I realized it was Villareal, not Valverde. Now, I’m not sure.
Neither of those two are guarantees to make the April roster, though Villarreal could bounce back and have a good season. Still, live arms aren’t good ones, and I think the Braves could’ve gotten one decent pitcher rather than two that could absolutely bomb.
I like the deal. It adds some solid depth to our ‘pen. The main reason I like it, however, is that it shows just how little people know about what Schuerholz is doing. This makes me optimistic that other, stupider rumored trades are not actually being seriously considered by the Braves.
Ok time for today’s crazy trade rummor.
A lady at work told me that a three way with the O’s, Braves, and the Dodgers.
Atl sends Thomson, KJ, Marte to Bal.
Bal send Tejada and Gil to Atl.
LA sends Cesar Izturis to Bal.
ATL sends WB to LA
Bal sends Eli Marrero to LA
Again let me restate what I was saying about Estrada yesterday. He sucks. The Braves were lucky to get anything in return for him.
Many examples people cite as prospects who didn’t pan out are not good comparisons to Andy Marte. They are players who were talked about in the papers as “prospects” but otherwise bear no resemblance to Andy Marte. Take one mentioned, Tyler Houston.
Houston’s first season in AA didn’t come until he was 22 years old. Once there, he batted roughly .279/.310/.397. Those numbers should be adjusted upward due to era, it is true. However, Andy Marte as a 20 year old in the same park hit .269/.364/.525. Much better numbers, same level, two years younger. WORLDS better as a prospect.
I can’t find Komminsk’s minor league numbers anywhere, so I can’t compare him and Marte. If he really had elite minor league numbers, he is the exception rather than the rule.
Lance Cormier – 79 Innings 50 R 45 ER ??????
that sucks
Well, that’s not exactly a great point, justin. Even if Estrada did suck–and he doesn’t–if other teams were offering better known quantities for him, the Braves may have made a mistake by getting two boom-or-bust types.
Man LA really gets the short end of that deal
When Heap goes down in one later this year, remember this deal. We’ll probably have to send a prospect to the Cubs for Blanco and the rest of his salary. Cormier is awful. OV is all potential; Mr. McDowell’s first project. We’ll just have to wait and see. I wouldn’t have done this deal.
All right, looking at the BPro stuff on these guys…
Cormier doesn’t look so hot. RHP, not a very good K/BB rate, high ERA (please tell me JS didn’t get hoodwinked by the 7-3 record), 7 HRs in 79 IP. He seems a bit wild. WHIP of 1.63 last year, down from 1.93 in 2004. He seems to be improving. Maybe he’ll be serviceable.
Villarreal only threw 13.7 innings this year. Injury? Very bad in 2004 (OBA was .342, WHIP of 1.78) but had a good 2003. He’s also very young, just turned 24.
I don’t really know what I think of this, it seems like a blah move. We pretty much knew Estrada would be traded, and we got mid-level bullpen help for him. Very blah.
Smitty, we’d then have to figure out how to get Andrus, Pena, Escobar and Hernandez to the Dodgers before breaking camp.
How is trading a one-year-removed All Star starting catcher to a poorly-run and ineptly-managed team for a couple of scrap-heap arms a good deal? Utter garbage. We should have held on to Estrada to platoon with McCann if that’s all he was worth on the trade market. Utter garbage.
I like the deal. It adds some solid depth to our ‘pen. The main reason I like it, however, is that it shows just how little people know about what Schuerholz is doing. This makes me optimistic that other, stupider rumored trades are not actually being seriously considered by the Braves.
Agree 100% with both points made here.
Cormier and Villarreal are young, projectable arms, just turn them over to Leo and…oh.
If McCann goes down, just go ahead and bring Salty up from AA. It’s not the plan for this year, certainly, but it wasn’t the plan to bring McCann up last year either. I can’t imagine that Salty would be any worse than any backup we’d trade for.
Villarreal had a strained tendon last year, so the Braves may have spotted a problem in his mechanics they think McDowell can fix.
I would have rather hung on to Estrada. I couldn’t agree more with JC. Hopefully, with these guys being 24 and 25 they will improve, but their peripherals don’t suggest it. Bad move in my opinion.
Yeah, nyb, that occurred to me, too. I would like this more if we still had Leo.
How is trading a one-year-removed All Star starting catcher to a poorly-run and ineptly-managed team for a couple of scrap-heap arms a good deal?
I think you just contradicted yourself, Dave. You can’t say the D-backs are “poorly-run and ineptly managed” if you think they just fleeced us. Which they may have, only time will tell. FWIW, I have a lot of respect for their GM, Josh Byrnes, and I think, if given time, he’ll erase a lot of that “inept management.”
I am not going to say anything bad about Lance Cormier because he went to Alabama and lives in Northport in the offseason. I could probably drop by his house later.
You know we have been laughing at them all year because they actually picked up Russ Ortiz. I just hope they aren’t laughing now!
Maybe McDowell say these guys in AAA last year and liked thim?
Still, even if the Diamondbacks have had a change of management and are becoming smarter with their finances and personnel, I still don’t see why Estrada couldn’t have brought more. The catching situation in the NL is horrendous, and it seems like Estrada was one of the better ones available.
Look at it this way: When it all shakes down, we got these two losers for Kevin Millwood. Bad moves trickle down the years…
Oscar villarreal looks like he could be pretty good. Cormier, eh. The market for Estrada wasn’t so good it appears 🙂
Maybe now these retarded “Marte and McCann” rumors will end. Our starting C isn’t going anywhere now…
File under “It’s tough to pitch in the desert”:
Career Stats
Cormier
Home: 7.99 ERA, 33/34 BB/K
Away: 4.57 ERA, 35/53 BB/K
Villarreal
Home: 4.35 ERA, 27/48 BB/K
Away: 2.66 ERA, 32/54 BB/K
Then again, I’d rather have young bad arms in the pen than old bad ones like we used last year.
Has anyone else confirmed this, I don’t take Ken for his word.
There is no confirmation. “Johnny Estrada” hasn’t appeared in any news story (on Google News) in two hours.
Im very ehhhh on the Estrada trade. Hes a cheap, semi young, average catcher. I was hoping for more
Cormier strikes me as very Reitsma-esque. He logged way more innings than the other D’backs relief corps, and his numbers, like Reitsma’s seem to indicate that he was the most “reliable” of a beleaguered and problematic bullpen.
Maybe it is a rumor, but I dont now if I want it to be or if I dont want it to be.
By the way…
1. If Estrada is traded, that all but confirms that McCann is off the table. He was never really on the table, but people will stop asking.
2. If the Braves could get Tejada, Mets fans will cry. A lot. Like little babies. Just a bonus.
now = Know by the way
Are Mac and I the only one talking about Tejada, or is there really any chance?
I would be willing for us to give up $8-10 per year for Tejada in a heartbeat. I wouldnt want him for only one year though
I’m afraid to jinx any potential acquisition of an all-world player. Boy, do I really want Renteria!
WB, Marte, Thomson, and Elvis for Tejada!
csg, his contract runs through 2009. It would be considerably longer than one year. But, as I said earlier, if you want him, you’ll have to give up a LOT. He’s the only reason O’s fans are shelling out $35 to see the team any more. Angelos won’t let him go for anything less than a mint.
I’ll take it, by Andy
It’s official, Estrada’s gone: Lance Cormier and Oscar Villarreal from Arizona for Estrada.
I meant bye Andy
Maybe this whole Renteria talk was a smokescreen?
A smokescreen for what? Why would you need to hide an Estrada trade behind a smokescreen? It’s not like they were trading Smoltz for parts or something.
Smoke screan? For two youn pitchers, that maybe one will make the team?
The Estrada shoe has dropped. Waiting any minute now for the pining for Leo to start. I guess that Johnny’s value had dropped that much. This is a don’t have to go to arbitration with him trade as much as anything else. Neither pitcher acquired looks like much but then again neither did Jorge Sosa.
If we trade Marte in any way shape or form for Renteria I’ll puke.
Tejada is the face of the Orioles and now that Furcal is getting 13 per year, a bargain. He ain’t going anywhere. Why in the heck would the O’s trade their best player, the best SS in baseball, for a collection of parts?
Estrada would step out of the way of a smokescrean and try to swipe tag it.
The smokescreen would be for the nameless one, not the Estrada trade, I believe.
Yeah, why would I suggest a smokescreen for the Estrada trade?
Cormier’s game-by-game line doesn’t look that bad. He had about half a dozen miserable outings, but other than that, he looked okay.
Something I find funny is that when we acquired Johnny from the Phils, people thought he was worth pretty much what we got for him today. 2 years later and we’re supposed to get a top drawer starter.
Johnny is a “good enough” player. Surrounded by studs at other positions, he can be a valuable complementary player. He’s nothing more than that , but with the right team, that can be important.
AJC confirms it
http://www.ajc.com/braves/content/sports/braves/1205/08estrada.html
Tejada is one of the 10 best players in baseball – if there is a chance of acquiring him without giving up Hudson/Smoltz/Andruw it should be explored. How good would he look hitting 3rd in our lineup behind Giles (if he doesn’t lead off) and Andruw.
Agree w/ 50lb. Having him as a starter isn’t a death sentence for a team, and he’s a well-above average backup C. Relying on him to hit 4th or 5th, as has happened occasionally over the past two years, is trouble.
It would make losing Raffy look like a good deal
Tejada wold hit 4
Tejada’s not going anywhere.
I find it mildly encouraging that Tampa picked up Shawn Burroughs and maybe thinks they have a thirdbaseman now.
No, he’d most certainly hit third. ‘Druw fourth, Chipper 5th. I’m drooling. You know, over here in fantasy land.
He is a better 4 hitter and would rather hit there. Chipper is the same with the 3 spot
Tejada seems to be little more than a pipe dream.
But this Estrada deal is bringing back some haunting memories for me of Alfonseca and Almanza.
*shudders*
Sorry bout that folks, I know that I’ve just frightened all of you. And trust me, I’m frightened too.
I don’t see why you guys think we could have gotten so much more for Estrada. We start off threads saying “in JS we trust” and then turn around and question every move he makes that we might have a doubt about. We weren’t exactly dealing from a position of strength with Estrada. The other teams in MLB do watch the games and could see that Estrada wasn’t the same player post-Erstad. Would you rather us have traded McCann or Salty. A catcher was going, and if it was going to be Estrada, I think this is about as well as we could have hoped to do.
I know that I’m not saying we could’ve done much better, but the possible blow up here makes you a little nervous about the deal. Remember, I’m trusting JS with the one (or maybe more) big move that he’s going to make this offseason, but the lower level deals sometimes don’t work out.
i.e. Albie Lopez, Dan Kolb, etc.
It’s not doubting, but the paranoia’s still gonna be there.
The O’s are about as likely to trade Tejada as the Braves were to trade a 29 year old Chipper Jones several years ago.
The O’s are about as likely to trade Tejada as the world is to come to and end.
Oh the world has ended.
Oh we got Tejada.
Oh but the world has ended. It is no good. Take him back O’s.
Apologies in advance for the hearsay, but a buddy just called to say that Gammons was on the radio indicating that our menage-a-three is currently off because (surprise) Tampa wants more than just Marte.
It just shows the ineptitude of that franchise, and really projects that the organization doesn’t know what they’re doing. Their ideas of fair trades are outrageous anyway, but because it’s Tampa really adds something to that stigma. I hope that team rots in transaction hell.
Again, sorry for no link, but it’s what I’m told was at least broadcast.
To back up hoboken, Gammons reiterated that statement on Baseball Tonight only a few minutes ago.
So everyone can now do a collective exhale, at least for the moment.
My understanding is that the Orioles would deal Tejada if the deal really blew them away. The Braves are probably in the best place to do that, with Furcal’s slot (both on the field and in the payroll) available, a lot of prospects, and Thomson tradeable. But I don’t know if JS would devastate the farm system to add even Tejada, and the Orioles would probably back out anyway.