Things got hung up at the hospital. I’m out now, and hopefully regular recapping activivities will resume tomorrow. Assuming that the Braves can find a centerfielder.
Until this year Willingham has always been north of a .350 obp with power and his splits are good against both right and left and they are particularly good against lefties. Until this year. But he is on a hot streak. He also will be at least a type B and maybe a type A free agent. If we can get him in a package with Crisp for a reasonable price, I will be thrilled.
Stu
on July 29, 2011 at 4:54 pm
The Ludwick and Willingham hate is pretty weird. Those guys would obviously help this team. Yes, a CF would be better, but those guys would be better than standing pat. And, of course, it’s possible for Wren to get both a CF and one of those corner guys.
One thing that concerns/puzzles me is the lack of buzz surrounding the Braves and righty relievers. That’s a pretty clear need, too.
braves14
on July 29, 2011 at 4:55 pm
Remember when the Braves could have had Willingham for a song and signed Garret Anderson instead?
@9 Ha! You wouldn’t believe how many emails I get from Dodge telling me to check out the latest Challenger models… Do they not have faith that their cars can keep people happy for over a year? That Charger is a beast.
Smitty
on July 29, 2011 at 4:56 pm
@10
We need a CF, but if we get a corner guy, he needs to be on a Quinton/Pence level.
Willingham is a platoon player on this team.
reaganman
on July 29, 2011 at 4:56 pm
I would be disappointed if we got Ludwick though. Other than his amazing 2008 season, he is a little underwhelming.
reaganman
on July 29, 2011 at 4:57 pm
14 – I think Chipper is going to see a lot of rest in the next two months. Prado’s versatility makes it work.
Smitty
on July 29, 2011 at 4:59 pm
Willingham is about as sexy as Gene Simmons taking a dump
He’s pretty solid, but the Braves hate his defense (even though he’d probably just be playing LF 4 or 5 days a week).
Also, he’s an emergency catcher, FWIW.
Smitty
on July 29, 2011 at 5:02 pm
I’d like to have him off the bench. But how does he fix the CF hole?
braves14
on July 29, 2011 at 5:04 pm
Obviously, we’d have to also get a CF.
Stu
on July 29, 2011 at 5:04 pm
18—I like Willingham, but I’m not so sure about the emergency-catching part. He hasn’t caught a game since ’06, and he’s had a lot of back/neck issues since then.
19—The point is that the CF hole is not the only hole.
JoeyT
on July 29, 2011 at 5:05 pm
King Kaufman has a BP article. It starts with Adam Dunn’s historically bad batting average. “Can you imagine the excitement if a player were on his way to the fourth-best batting average of all time? He’d have to be hitting .420. We’d all be going crazy over this guy because he’d be doing something so rare.
It’s just as rare on the bottom of the list. So I’m going crazy, folks.”
I would rather have Upton and/or Quentin, of course. But Willingham would be fine, especially in a package with Crisp. Add on Wuertz and that kinda addresses the main problems other than SS.
braves14
on July 29, 2011 at 5:06 pm
Well, I just mean that as an emergency catcher he might let Fredi be less afraid to let Ross PH when McCann gets back.
JoeyT
on July 29, 2011 at 5:07 pm
@21, the advantage to him being an emergency catcher isn’t that he’d actually catch, it’s that Fredi would feel comfortable pinch hitting Ross knowing that in case horrible things happened, he could put Willingham in that slot.
Acquiring Willingham would be like gaining two RH pinch hitters at the same time.
reaganman
on July 29, 2011 at 5:08 pm
I think Mike Minor for Willingham, Crisp and Wuertz is feasible and equal value since we would also be getting draft pick compensation for both Willingham and Crisp.
John Gaines
on July 29, 2011 at 5:09 pm
I’d be pretty happy with Crisp, Willingham, and a Proctor replacement.
RobBroad4th
on July 29, 2011 at 5:09 pm
Glad to hear you’re feeling okay, Downeaster. I thoroughly enjoyed your posts, mainly because I know your a decent and smart guy and not a huge douche like ILoveEmmaStone.
braves14
on July 29, 2011 at 5:10 pm
The Braves seem to be gambling on Moylan and Medlen coming back successfully to help the RHP bullpen hole.
John Gaines
on July 29, 2011 at 5:12 pm
I thought Medlen was dunzo for this year?
Stu
on July 29, 2011 at 5:12 pm
24 & 25—I hope you’re right. I just wonder if Fredi might not believe he’s able to catch, either, thereby undermining your plans for Ross.
Oh, who am I kidding? Fredi doesn’t put that much thought into anything.
spike
on July 29, 2011 at 5:13 pm
@7, take it from me, the day you stop getting hangovers is the day you really need to start worrying. It’s like the last behavioral governor is gone.
JoeyT
on July 29, 2011 at 5:15 pm
Who stops getting hangovers except alcoholics?
braves14
on July 29, 2011 at 5:15 pm
30 — Is he? I read that he had a setback but not that he’s out for the year.
Stu
on July 29, 2011 at 5:17 pm
He’d been shut down for 6 weeks, IIRC, which effectively ended his chances of contributing to the big club, I assumed.
If the Braves won’t give up Minor for Upton/Pence, there’s no way they give him up for Willingham + Crisp.
@32
I almost never get them, but I think my desire to not be “that guy” that is the only one drunk at dinner will be enough of a governor for the near future.
Chip (not Caray)
on July 29, 2011 at 5:23 pm
What’s really fascinating about all this trade rumor stuff is wondering who’s talking to what reporter. Bowman just posted saying the Braves never considered Pence a priority– he’s been in the “Braves don’t want Pence” camp from the beginning. Rosenthal’s been consistently saying that the Phillies had the inside track, while Stark mostly was saying the Braves loved Pence and had put a good offer on the table. So I wonder…where do each of them get their info? Which member of which front office is talking to them and pointing them in their different directions?
Stu
on July 29, 2011 at 5:26 pm
38—Yeah, and I say that as probably the biggest fan of Minor and Milligan among all Braves fans.
reaganman
on July 29, 2011 at 5:27 pm
38 – yes.
39 – I’m not sure that they wont give up Minor for those guys. These rumors contradict. Regardless, I think it’s worth it and who knows if Wren agrees.
Smitty
on July 29, 2011 at 5:27 pm
So its Upton or crap. I would rather stand pat than Ludwick.
Stu
on July 29, 2011 at 5:31 pm
That’s ridiculous.
Smitty
on July 29, 2011 at 5:31 pm
Ludwick is really struggling. At this point he may not be much of an upgrade and he really can’t play center
Stu
on July 29, 2011 at 5:36 pm
He’s better than Prado against righties and better than Heyward against lefties. If McLouth can play center, so can he.
He would unquestionably be an asset on this team. I’ll just be disappointed if he’s the only move.
Adam R
on July 29, 2011 at 5:39 pm
@35, Yup. Medlen’s not even working out now.
@38, I would, the A’s wouldn’t, and doesn’t Smitty’s barber only hear about three-way trades?
@40, The one person you can be sure of is Peanut. He wants you to think what the Braves want you to think, which is a helpful piece of the puzzle. The Braves seem to want to downplay any interest in Pence…I can only assume that’s because they think the price is too high, and better that the Phillies pay it. So time to play hard to get.
It’s funny that, now that the Braves are out on Pence, the Phillies seem to realize that they’re bidding against themselves, so they’re now saying that trading Domonic Brown is a no go. There goes the Astros’ leverage. If any of this can be believed. And so maybe the Braves can jump back in, having forced the Phillies’ hand.
Hey, I could be a sportswriter with this kind of imagination…
spike
on July 29, 2011 at 5:46 pm
@39, I had a wonderful English professor many years ago who said “manners will serve you better than morality in the end”. Well done.
reaganman
on July 29, 2011 at 5:49 pm
47 – You don’t think Beane would want a major league ready starter and a solid prospect for three valuable but unspectacular guys who will leave at the end of the year in a season where the A’s are not contenders?
Edit – well, there’s an option on Wuertz. But still.
braves14
on July 29, 2011 at 6:07 pm
IMO, only getting Ludwick would be about as exciting and helpful as getting Ankiel was last year for outfield help.
Adam R
on July 29, 2011 at 6:08 pm
@49, I didn’t realize both of them are FAs soon. Minor and Milligan are very likely better than what Beane could do in the draft, but it still strikes me as a little too much. We’d need to give another OK prospect, I’d bet.
Willingham is like Dunn was. The door always seems to be open, but we never knock.
reaganman
on July 29, 2011 at 6:13 pm
51 – since it’s better than what he could do in the draft he would probably agree to the deal unless another team would give him a better deal and I doubt that there is a team that would. I think the question is whether Wren would. I think he should since it makes us a whole lot better this year and we still salvage some future value due to the draft picks.
braves14
on July 29, 2011 at 6:15 pm
Also, those guys probably wouldn’t be all that expensive if the Braves wanted to bring them back. (Willingham for LF and Prado to 3b if Chipper retired, and/or Crisp in CF).
reaganman
on July 29, 2011 at 6:16 pm
53 – agreed. Especially if we can get a team to take Lowe off our hands.
37 – In the linked Peanut article he says that Ludwick is ‘athletic enough to play center.’ As Stu points out, he can help, especially if he can play a little CF if needed. If that’s the only deal though, I certainly won’t be happy.
As somebody who watched Willingham attempt to catch a lot in AAA, there’s no chance to him being able to catch now. He couldn’t do it then, he certainly can’t do it now. I know we’re only talking emergency, but I’d say that’s even highly unlikely.
IMO, Wuertz is not an upgrade on what is down at Gwinnett, Crisp should be a last resort.
Chip just guessed Gary Sheffield for the last player other than Hanley Ramirez to lead the Marlins in stolen bases. That is amazing.
RobBroad4th
on July 29, 2011 at 7:35 pm
@68, Thank you for sharing. Definitely a sweet moment.
Chip (not Caray)
on July 29, 2011 at 7:39 pm
All of the ESPN.com guys are saying the Braves are still in on Pence. Earlier it sounded like it was a matter of the Phillies either getting it done or not. But apparently the Braves aren’t conceding.
You know, if you believe any of those guys.
Chip (not Caray)
on July 29, 2011 at 7:44 pm
On that note…still can’t figure out why the Braves aren’t in on Michael Bourn. Or why nobody seems to think they are. He seems like a perfect fit. Power is not the only way to improve your team. OBP, speed and good defense do it too.
braves14
on July 29, 2011 at 7:46 pm
Dammit AAG you’re killing us.
Morrie
on July 29, 2011 at 7:47 pm
@73
He bats left handed, we need a right handed bat for our line up.
reaganman
on July 29, 2011 at 7:48 pm
While we’re at it, get Furcal. He can’t be worse than AAG.
Frank
on July 29, 2011 at 7:53 pm
@70–Juan Pierre?
Chip (not Caray)
on July 29, 2011 at 7:54 pm
@75– We also need a leadoff hitter who gets on base once in a while. Our leadoff OBP has got to be around, what, .310 this year? I like Schafer a lot, but he’s still not getting on base enough to be a competent leadoff hitter.
I get the need for a righty bat, but it’s not the only thing we need.
I’ve really come around to a proposal somebody made the other night about offering something big to Houston for Bourn and Pence, then moving Prado to shortstop. Sounds weird, and I’m sure the Braves are too conservative to do it, but there’s no reason to think Prado wouldn’t be a reasonably competent shortstop. Probably not AAG, but you could use him as a late-game defensive replacement and get the best offensive lineup out there.
Putter
on July 29, 2011 at 7:55 pm
Rosenthal says Phillies close to getting Pence, deal expected to be completed tonight. Singleton removed from the game in Clearwater, so I guess that ship has now sailed. But again, we have tons of pitching
Frank
on July 29, 2011 at 7:55 pm
@73-agreed
PeteOrr
on July 29, 2011 at 7:56 pm
Since AAG is supposedly an all-glove sort of guy, I imagine little bits of him disappearing when he does crap like dropping routine double play balls. Without his glove, he’s just non-existent in the context of a baseball game. Soon he’ll disappear completely, and we’ll just play with 8 men. Fredi will bat a void in the two hole.
Dan
on July 29, 2011 at 7:56 pm
Leadoff hitting is overrated.
The Braves already had a Bourn last year in Blanco before they traded him. Who wants to see that again?
Maybe that means we’ll go after Upton… Or maybe I’ll be weeping when we get crappy parts and leave all of our pitching prospects to rot.
Our New Insect Overlords
on July 29, 2011 at 8:00 pm
Pence about to become a Phillie, tweets Ken Rosenthal. (Sorry, didn’t see mention @79).
Damn it, Frank, do something. Ludwick is not defined as “something.” And if he is, please tell us it’s because Liberty Media is cheap and unfit for team ownership.
reaganman
on July 29, 2011 at 8:01 pm
I am glad Pence is going to the Phillies if they are giving up the farm for him.
Dan
on July 29, 2011 at 8:01 pm
Phillies get Pence, Braves will get another ‘Wren job’ like Ludwick.
MLB should investigate collusion between GM Wade and his old team the Phillies. Oswalt and now Pence for what, exactly?
Ryan c
on July 29, 2011 at 8:02 pm
Phillies gave up 2 top 50 prospects for Pence. If we were to beat that, this blog would have shat pants.
Morrie
on July 29, 2011 at 8:03 pm
@78
If the price is right for bourn, fine go get him. But even if we got him we still have a need for a Right handed bat, which is a more pressing issue in the first place. Considering what the Phillies are giving up for Pence, I would imagine bourn would cost more than hes worth.
Brad
on July 29, 2011 at 8:03 pm
Guys, don’t panic. We’re on our 3-year-long “wait for Chipper to come back” plan. It always works.
Chip (not Caray)
on July 29, 2011 at 8:06 pm
@88- He might. Wade certainly seems to be pushing for a lot. But you don’t have the high-profile battle between Philly and Atlanta like you did with Pence. And Bourn isn’t Drayton McLane’s favorite player on the planet, so there’s that. I’m guessing he’d cost a lot less than Pence.
Ryan c
on July 29, 2011 at 8:06 pm
‘scuse me, according to Keith law’s mid-year list, 2 top-25 prospects. Seriously, no one should be mad about this…
I think everyone is a little delusional about how good Pence is… I’d say the Phillies definitely overpaid for him and I’m glad it wasn’t us
Chip (not Caray)
on July 29, 2011 at 8:11 pm
Shrinkage? Costanza’s hit three balls that haven’t collectively gone 90 feet.
reaganman
on July 29, 2011 at 8:14 pm
So now will Buster Olney tell us that the Phillies don’t value OBP as much as other teams?
Ryan c
on July 29, 2011 at 8:15 pm
Now go get Ludwick and Furcal for mid-tier prospects, or Bourne for Minor.
Frank
on July 29, 2011 at 8:15 pm
@90–good call–let the Phils have him at that price
@94–ftw
PeteOrr
on July 29, 2011 at 8:16 pm
I don’t think I’d enjoy being a phils phan at all. I lack the ability to self-induce vomiting on other phans at the ballpark, so I wouldn’t really fit in, and while getting actual players at trade deadlines would be fun, I think I’d rather get to watch talented kids grow up. Trading 6 years of both singleton and cosart for a year and a half of Pence awkwardly staggering around the outfield would not increase happiness in the long term. The Wren way sucks in the short term, but it rewards patience and breeds character in fans. I am at peace with it and the Ryan Ludwick it will provide us this year.
Our New Insect Overlords
on July 29, 2011 at 8:18 pm
@94
I would be happy if Constanza started doing the opposite of everything he’s done at the plate tonight. And after the Stanton AB, in the field, too.
Dan
on July 29, 2011 at 8:19 pm
‘Can’t stand ya.’
oldtimer?
on July 29, 2011 at 8:19 pm
Nice play George
Randy
on July 29, 2011 at 8:20 pm
Hinske = Gazelle
Our New Insect Overlords
on July 29, 2011 at 8:22 pm
@98
I preferred the Ted Turner/John Schuerholz way of the 1990’s:
JS: “We’ve got Glavine, Smoltz and Avery. But there’s this Maddux fellow who can help us a little.”
TT: “Sign him. No matter the cost.”
Yeah, I know those days aren’t coming back, but I miss them desperately.
PeteOrr
on July 29, 2011 at 8:23 pm
Hinske has an amazing knack for barely making routine plays and somehow looking spectacular doing it. You’d think someone would pay him more than he’s making to do that for them. Someone like Dayton Moore.
nick manning
on July 29, 2011 at 8:23 pm
phillies got pence!?!?!
Derek
on July 29, 2011 at 8:24 pm
Slamming Wren for not acquiring Pence seems unfair.
Slamming Wren for hiring Fredi, not paying players above slot in the draft, hiring a hitting coach whose name I won’t repeat because it makes me vomit, de-emphasizing OBP, signing Uggla for 60 million dollars, getting rid of Kelly Johnson, hiring Fredi, and allowing Schafer to play every day? Fair. Actually, I encourage it.
Dan
on July 29, 2011 at 8:25 pm
@103: also the nice days when a previous year Cy Young award winner like Maddux, with Boras as his agent, could be had for five years and 28 million.
Brad
on July 29, 2011 at 8:26 pm
Getting rid of Kelly Johnson? LOL.
Trace
on July 29, 2011 at 8:26 pm
Unban the Dan!
Our New Insect Overlords
on July 29, 2011 at 8:26 pm
Now THAT’s how you extend a hitting streak.
Mike N.
on July 29, 2011 at 8:27 pm
Danny!
urlhix
on July 29, 2011 at 8:27 pm
Yay!
Frank
on July 29, 2011 at 8:27 pm
Still only one sac fly since may 27
PeteOrr
on July 29, 2011 at 8:27 pm
@103 – We’re the poor kids now for sure.
Uggla!!!
Grst
on July 29, 2011 at 8:28 pm
Uggla just murdered that rally.
Tomas
on July 29, 2011 at 8:29 pm
104 — It’s the Jim Edmonds way.
Grst
on July 29, 2011 at 8:35 pm
Fatso hit a grand slam for KC, then admired it for so long that he caused benches to clear the next AB.
spike
on July 29, 2011 at 8:36 pm
@103, the Braves were not the highest bidder for Maddux. He took less to come here.
reaganman
on July 29, 2011 at 8:37 pm
117 – Similar to Cliff Lee and the Phillies.
Trace
on July 29, 2011 at 8:39 pm
BTW Freddie Freeman is hitting .295 and has an OPS of .847, while Ryan Howard is hitting .246 and has an OPS of .796.
Our New Insect Overlords
on July 29, 2011 at 8:40 pm
@117
Yep, $6 million short of the Yankees’ offer, IIRC. But the Braves were in it and offered what he perceived as the best chance to win. Then eight months later, the midseason deal for McGriff.
Eighteen years later, in near-deadline trades and free agency, we give the aroma of dumpster diving. So much for providing a FA/trade target the best chance to win the World Series. And the only way Liberty Media gives a damn about rings would be to ask, “What do they cost?” Sad.
PeteOrr
on July 29, 2011 at 8:41 pm
Beachy’s fastball apparently bats for the marlins, but it only got two hits off of him. /Chip.
PeteOrr
on July 29, 2011 at 8:43 pm
I’ve say that Beachy showed the guts of a cat burglar tonight, what about you Chip?
Michael
on July 29, 2011 at 8:49 pm
@120 – Or “how many hotel porns do we have to sell to offset the cost of those rings?”
mravery
on July 29, 2011 at 8:50 pm
George takes away an save opportunity!
Our New Insect Overlords
on July 29, 2011 at 8:51 pm
It’s Festivus for Constanza.
Chip (not Caray)
on July 29, 2011 at 8:51 pm
I know this’ll sound churlish, but it annoys me that the only thing Jorge has done tonight is cost Kimbrel a save opportunity.
JoeyT
on July 29, 2011 at 8:52 pm
Constanza is so clutch. He’s like Jeter if Jeter were a weak hitting seven year minor leaguer just called up from AAA.
Braves don’t get a walk in the game? How often does that happen? Way too much this year. I know Hensley is a paddy-cake softballer, but good grief.
RobBroad4th
on July 29, 2011 at 9:38 pm
Let’s go get Upton.
Mundale
on July 29, 2011 at 9:49 pm
Upton is not the man. He averages more strikeouts than hits, has no power, doesn’t hit many doubles, and has not had a triple all year. For a speed guy that’s an important stat. He cant bunt (sac hits) or hit fly balls when they’re needed. We need an offensive impact, not another unproductive sack of bones.
Brad
on July 29, 2011 at 9:52 pm
Well, we let all those offensive impacts go to our rivals the last 3 days, so Upton is all we have left.
Hell yeah they overpaid. Pence is having a nice year, but he’s not the impact player that Houston valued him to be. Houston took advantage of a weak market.
Now how about our CF issue, Frank. So glad these injuries happened this week and not next week. CF was an issue before, now its major.
Dan
on July 29, 2011 at 10:59 pm
Baghdad Bowman says that the injuries are irrelevant to the Braves in the trade market. Can’t imagine that to be actually true.
ryan c
on July 29, 2011 at 11:00 pm
What would be awesome would be if the Braves were to be able to go get Upton, Willingham, and Furcal and pay less than what the Phillies did for Pence.
Upton for Minor
Willingham for Hoover and low-level guy
Furcal for mid-tier prospect
The Braves are trying to put on a show and not appear desperate so they don’t lose leverage.
Frank
on July 29, 2011 at 11:11 pm
Astros apparently wanted two of top four pitching prospects plus more. Kudos to Wren for declining.
csg
on July 29, 2011 at 11:11 pm
MLBTR….
The Braves offered a four-player package to the Astros for Hunter Pence, tweets ESPN’s Jerry Crasnick. However, Ken Rosenthal of FOX Sports says the Astros sought two of the Braves’ top four pitching prospects and another good young pitcher, so a deal was not reached. With Pence and Carlos Beltran off the board, here’s the latest on the Braves’ hunt for a hitter…
The Braves are almost certain to land an outfielder before the deadline, reports Rosenthal. He cites the names you have been hearing for a while: B.J. Upton, Michael Bourn, Ryan Ludwick, Carlos Quentin, and Josh Willingham.
Bourn is on the Braves’ radar, tweets Crasnick. Padres right fielder Ludwick is “more down the list of options.”
The Braves are targeting a center fielder, tweets Yahoo’s Jeff Passan, though it doesn’t rule them out on corner guys.
Good good. Pence is definitely not the kind of player you make that kind of deal for. Matt Kemp, maybe, but obviously not Pence.
Putter
on July 29, 2011 at 11:14 pm
@155 I agree…kudos to Wren for not selling the whole farm for Pence. There are better fitting options still available and if he decides to replace Agony as well I would be a huge fan of our deadline deals
Bob Horner
on July 29, 2011 at 11:16 pm
Anyone heard anything about bullpen help?
Chip (not Caray)
on July 29, 2011 at 11:18 pm
So apparently the Astros were looking for 2 of the top 4 prospects from the Braves (I’m guessing Minor + Delgado, but just a guess) plus another pitching prospect that Braves are high on.
So I would say it’s good the Braves turned them down. If they’d gone for that kind of deal, I’m pretty sure Braves Journal would have caught on fire.
ryan c
on July 29, 2011 at 11:18 pm
Seriously, since the Braves lost out on “top” options, they can fill more holes. If I’m counting correctly, there’s at least 4 obvious ones: CF, RH bench bat, SS (even though the org doesnt want to admit that a 0.8 WAR needs upgrading), and RH relief pitcher.
Stephen in the UAE
on July 29, 2011 at 11:18 pm
I am more than happy to see the Phillies overpay for Pence…..
PeteOrr
on July 29, 2011 at 11:21 pm
I’d get really excited for a Bourn acquisition. I’d go to his first game, even if it’s a Lowe start. If 155 is true, that was an insane asking price for Pence, but I guess it doesn’t hurt to ask. I suppose years of selling have made a pretty good seller out of Ed Wade. Probably not the major quality I’d look for in a GM though.
Stephen in the UAE
on July 29, 2011 at 11:43 pm
Bourn would make sense for the Braves. I think that Wren will find a way to improve our team without undermining our future….
Dan
on July 29, 2011 at 11:49 pm
Prospect-huggers were opposed to trading “future super star” Andy Marte too.
ryan c
on July 29, 2011 at 11:51 pm
Dan, the Astros probably asked for Teheran and Minor. That’s ridiculous.
spike
on July 29, 2011 at 11:54 pm
Opposed to trading him for Renteria in any event. They got a miracle season out of him in 07 that they had no right to expect and cashed in, but that doesn’t mean it was a great idea.
reaganman
on July 29, 2011 at 11:55 pm
Yeah, I’m all for dealing prospects as long as you get equal value. The Pence deal was not equal value.
spike
on July 29, 2011 at 11:56 pm
This was a good trade for for Philly, make no mistake, but it was hardly a case where the Braves should have topped the offer – two top 50 prospects – top 25 depending on who you want to believe – is hardly fire sale pricing.
Marc
on July 30, 2011 at 12:16 am
Have we come up with a nickname for Costanza yet? T-Bone is what I would go with, it’s what George always wanted.
Our New Insect Overlords
on July 30, 2011 at 12:20 am
“For I am Costanza, Lord of the Idiots.” Works for me.
mravery
on July 30, 2011 at 12:30 am
Hahaha. T-bone would be perfect.
kc
on July 30, 2011 at 12:31 am
I am never a fan of Pence. I always worry that he will turn out to be another Nate if he becomes a Brave.
Good to see Dan is turning the corner. Otherwise I would mention his name in the above sentence as well.
IthacaBraves
on July 30, 2011 at 12:55 am
kc
I absolutely agree. There’s something about Pence that makes me think he’s bound to turn into a pumpkin at some point. But, him being a Philly makes me think he’ll be a 35 HR threat for the next 5 years. Sigh.
troy
on July 30, 2011 at 1:36 am
He’ll be like ibanez: of course he’s a 35 hr threat because he plays in a bandbox, but he will make his fair share of outs. i agree he is mclouth. and i still have some hope for our own mclouth, who happens to be the real el guapo.
Parish
on July 30, 2011 at 2:09 am
Love the El Guapo reference.
And the “T-Bone” nickname.
Also, count me as glad we did not get Pence for a Matt Kemp type package.
kc
on July 30, 2011 at 2:09 am
@174 It would be so funny if Wren trades for Frenchy. I hope that will never happen because I don’t think anyone of us here can handle it…
Stephen in the UAE
on July 30, 2011 at 2:37 am
#178–Yes, it would never happen, but it would be rich…..
I also think that we would quickly see the return of the Frenchy of 2008….
sansho1
on July 30, 2011 at 6:57 am
T-Bone when he does something good. Jerk Store when he sucks.
Mark Graybill
on July 30, 2011 at 7:28 am
In other news, the AJC sports headline today says, “Braves Rout Marlins.” Really? Is this the effect of low expectations for this team? Wasn’t the game actually tied 0-0 into the 7th? How is that a rout?
Johnny
on July 30, 2011 at 7:45 am
Whew. I too am relieved that we didn’t give up all that for Pence. He is a better player than i thought when i looked closer but not THAT good. Phils gave up 2 high A guys. good deal for them. As someone mentioned before, in that park he may hit 35 hr. The phils have improved themselves. Mr. Wren?
Adam M
on July 30, 2011 at 9:26 am
“Have we come up with a nickname for Costanza yet?”
Art Vandalay?
Putter
on July 30, 2011 at 9:51 am
Cal Varnson
Chip (not Caray)
on July 30, 2011 at 9:52 am
I’m assuming Matt Kemp’s not available, but man would he be a nice acquisition. He would absolutely be worth giving up multiple top prospects for.
Stephen in the UAE
on July 30, 2011 at 9:57 am
#184–I agree with both the assumptions and the conclusion….
I think that Wren will act soon….
DWonder
on July 30, 2011 at 10:00 am
@184 – considering what the Phils gave up for Pence, can you imagine what Kemp’s asking price would be?
Heyman is now saying that the Indians are the likely landing spot for Ludwick and that the Braves are focusing elsewhere.
Jeremy
on July 30, 2011 at 10:10 am
Hopefully Wren is focusing on Byrd/Crisp/Bourn + Willingham. I’m really happy he didn’t overpay for Pence.
kc
on July 30, 2011 at 10:16 am
I would be willing to give up Teheran AND Delgado only for two players: Kemp or Justin Upton.
spike
on July 30, 2011 at 10:19 am
@188, doesn’t Kemp become an FA after next season? You’d give 12 seasons of those two for a year and a third of Kemp?
Chip (not Caray)
on July 30, 2011 at 10:23 am
@189- He’d also be a guy I’d rework the team’s salary structure to keep. I’d probably deal Minor + Delgado (or maybe Vizcaino, though I’d make Teheran untouchable) + lower level pieces for Kemp, and then work my ass off to sign him to an extension.
Adam R
on July 30, 2011 at 10:50 am
Wow. The Phillies are sending Domonic Brown down and are sticking with Ibanez in LF. I guess we’re catching a break.
Jeremy
on July 30, 2011 at 10:58 am
I’m convinced the Braves would have done the same with Heyward if they acquired Pence.
Putter
on July 30, 2011 at 11:03 am
So another good reason to have bailed on the over priced Pence deal
jjschiller
on July 30, 2011 at 11:15 am
David O’Peanut is really banging the Bourn drum on Twitter today. I asked him if Bourn’s career OPS+ of 89 is any concern to him. Also, if he noticed that this is the only year in Bourn’s career he’s even been league average.
spike
on July 30, 2011 at 11:16 am
@194 – Do Not Tap On Glass. Those signs are up for a reason.
@193, I’d wait for the deadline before deciding that.
Bourne is not a guy I’d be super stoked to get, but it’s much better than standing pat if we don’t overpay.
Jeremy
on July 30, 2011 at 11:24 am
OPS+ doesn’t factor in defense or baserunning. Bourn is certainly an above average player. Guess it all depends on how much the Astros want for him.
Tom
on July 30, 2011 at 11:27 am
194, we don’t have all that many league average outfielders. In fact, we have none. Average has value. I’d be super happy if we could get one or two average guys for a reasonable price.
Adam M
on July 30, 2011 at 11:38 am
Bourn isn’t league average. Over the past three seasons, he has been one of the best center fielders in baseball in terms of value.
11.9 bWAR
13.3 fWAR
He’s 4-5 win player. I’d prefer him over all the others, even Upton.
sansho1
on July 30, 2011 at 11:45 am
OPS+ also overvalues SLG at the expense of OBP, which is the more important component.
Prospect-huggers were opposed to trading “future super star” Andy Marte too.
I was opposed mainly because it appeared to be largely motivated by money. The Red Sox sent a bunch of money back with Renteria. Much like the Joey Devine-Mark Kotsay trade, which mainly appeared to be motivated by the fact that the A’s sent a bunch of money back with Kotsay.
In both cases, it looked like we were willing to take a less good player because we were willing to accept the cash. Obviously, it worked out in Marte’s case, perhaps because the Braves had more information about him than we did, or perhaps because some prospects just go bust. But in general, I hate the idea of trading prospects for cash.
Smitty
on July 30, 2011 at 11:56 am
I’d love to get Bourn, but Upton might be a better choice because he is right handed.
Adam M
on July 30, 2011 at 12:01 pm
I think Upton might be the better choice because he’d come cheaper than Bourn. At least according to DOB.
I actually want Upton more than Bourn. (And due to the fact that I think the disparity in price would be larger than the disparity in talent, I’d probably rather have Span than Bourn, too.) But I know I’m in the minority.
Jeremy
on July 30, 2011 at 12:08 pm
From Peanut:
“Because the Braves have a surplus of young pitching talent in their organization, fans and even some of their players (off the record) have questioned why they are not willing to deal Minor or some of their other pitching prospects.”
Welcome back, Mac.
Hope all’s heading in the right direction, Mac.
Glad you’re coming off the DL, Mac.
Keep strong Mac.
It is going to suck when we end up with Ludwick who has hit just .215/.281/.326 three homers in 172 ABs in his past 48 games.
Hopefully we’d get Willingham instead Ludwick. The Braves seem to hate Willingham and always have, though.
I think now we’ll get a CF especially with the McLouth/Schafer injuries.
The Braves seem to hate all good baseball players unless they drafted them.
Surprisingly not hungover.
Willingham, blah!
Bethany, Test driving new Dodge Charger
SRT8
http://www.popularmechanics.com/cars/reviews/drives/test-drive-2012-dodge-charger-SRT8?click=pm_latest
Until this year Willingham has always been north of a .350 obp with power and his splits are good against both right and left and they are particularly good against lefties. Until this year. But he is on a hot streak. He also will be at least a type B and maybe a type A free agent. If we can get him in a package with Crisp for a reasonable price, I will be thrilled.
The Ludwick and Willingham hate is pretty weird. Those guys would obviously help this team. Yes, a CF would be better, but those guys would be better than standing pat. And, of course, it’s possible for Wren to get both a CF and one of those corner guys.
One thing that concerns/puzzles me is the lack of buzz surrounding the Braves and righty relievers. That’s a pretty clear need, too.
Remember when the Braves could have had Willingham for a song and signed Garret Anderson instead?
@9 Ha! You wouldn’t believe how many emails I get from Dodge telling me to check out the latest Challenger models… Do they not have faith that their cars can keep people happy for over a year? That Charger is a beast.
@10
We need a CF, but if we get a corner guy, he needs to be on a Quinton/Pence level.
Willingham is a platoon player on this team.
I would be disappointed if we got Ludwick though. Other than his amazing 2008 season, he is a little underwhelming.
14 – I think Chipper is going to see a lot of rest in the next two months. Prado’s versatility makes it work.
Willingham is about as sexy as Gene Simmons taking a dump
http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/w/willijo03.shtml
He’s pretty solid, but the Braves hate his defense (even though he’d probably just be playing LF 4 or 5 days a week).
Also, he’s an emergency catcher, FWIW.
I’d like to have him off the bench. But how does he fix the CF hole?
Obviously, we’d have to also get a CF.
18—I like Willingham, but I’m not so sure about the emergency-catching part. He hasn’t caught a game since ’06, and he’s had a lot of back/neck issues since then.
19—The point is that the CF hole is not the only hole.
King Kaufman has a BP article. It starts with Adam Dunn’s historically bad batting average. “Can you imagine the excitement if a player were on his way to the fourth-best batting average of all time? He’d have to be hitting .420. We’d all be going crazy over this guy because he’d be doing something so rare.
It’s just as rare on the bottom of the list. So I’m going crazy, folks.”
http://www.baseballprospectus.com/article.php?articleid=14652
I would rather have Upton and/or Quentin, of course. But Willingham would be fine, especially in a package with Crisp. Add on Wuertz and that kinda addresses the main problems other than SS.
Well, I just mean that as an emergency catcher he might let Fredi be less afraid to let Ross PH when McCann gets back.
@21, the advantage to him being an emergency catcher isn’t that he’d actually catch, it’s that Fredi would feel comfortable pinch hitting Ross knowing that in case horrible things happened, he could put Willingham in that slot.
Acquiring Willingham would be like gaining two RH pinch hitters at the same time.
I think Mike Minor for Willingham, Crisp and Wuertz is feasible and equal value since we would also be getting draft pick compensation for both Willingham and Crisp.
I’d be pretty happy with Crisp, Willingham, and a Proctor replacement.
Glad to hear you’re feeling okay, Downeaster. I thoroughly enjoyed your posts, mainly because I know your a decent and smart guy and not a huge douche like ILoveEmmaStone.
The Braves seem to be gambling on Moylan and Medlen coming back successfully to help the RHP bullpen hole.
I thought Medlen was dunzo for this year?
24 & 25—I hope you’re right. I just wonder if Fredi might not believe he’s able to catch, either, thereby undermining your plans for Ross.
Oh, who am I kidding? Fredi doesn’t put that much thought into anything.
@7, take it from me, the day you stop getting hangovers is the day you really need to start worrying. It’s like the last behavioral governor is gone.
Who stops getting hangovers except alcoholics?
30 — Is he? I read that he had a setback but not that he’s out for the year.
He’d been shut down for 6 weeks, IIRC, which effectively ended his chances of contributing to the big club, I assumed.
@33, asked and answered counselor.
According to Bowman, its either Upton or Ludwick
http://mlb.mlblogs.com/2011/07/29/injury-plagued-braves-do-not-consider-pence-a-priority/
Heard this rumor from Smitty’s barber:
Braves get:
Willingham
Crisp
Wuertz
A’s get:
Minor
Milligan
Would you do it?
If the Braves won’t give up Minor for Upton/Pence, there’s no way they give him up for Willingham + Crisp.
@32
I almost never get them, but I think my desire to not be “that guy” that is the only one drunk at dinner will be enough of a governor for the near future.
What’s really fascinating about all this trade rumor stuff is wondering who’s talking to what reporter. Bowman just posted saying the Braves never considered Pence a priority– he’s been in the “Braves don’t want Pence” camp from the beginning. Rosenthal’s been consistently saying that the Phillies had the inside track, while Stark mostly was saying the Braves loved Pence and had put a good offer on the table. So I wonder…where do each of them get their info? Which member of which front office is talking to them and pointing them in their different directions?
38—Yeah, and I say that as probably the biggest fan of Minor and Milligan among all Braves fans.
38 – yes.
39 – I’m not sure that they wont give up Minor for those guys. These rumors contradict. Regardless, I think it’s worth it and who knows if Wren agrees.
So its Upton or crap. I would rather stand pat than Ludwick.
That’s ridiculous.
Ludwick is really struggling. At this point he may not be much of an upgrade and he really can’t play center
He’s better than Prado against righties and better than Heyward against lefties. If McLouth can play center, so can he.
He would unquestionably be an asset on this team. I’ll just be disappointed if he’s the only move.
@35, Yup. Medlen’s not even working out now.
@38, I would, the A’s wouldn’t, and doesn’t Smitty’s barber only hear about three-way trades?
@40, The one person you can be sure of is Peanut. He wants you to think what the Braves want you to think, which is a helpful piece of the puzzle. The Braves seem to want to downplay any interest in Pence…I can only assume that’s because they think the price is too high, and better that the Phillies pay it. So time to play hard to get.
It’s funny that, now that the Braves are out on Pence, the Phillies seem to realize that they’re bidding against themselves, so they’re now saying that trading Domonic Brown is a no go. There goes the Astros’ leverage. If any of this can be believed. And so maybe the Braves can jump back in, having forced the Phillies’ hand.
Hey, I could be a sportswriter with this kind of imagination…
@39, I had a wonderful English professor many years ago who said “manners will serve you better than morality in the end”. Well done.
47 – You don’t think Beane would want a major league ready starter and a solid prospect for three valuable but unspectacular guys who will leave at the end of the year in a season where the A’s are not contenders?
Edit – well, there’s an option on Wuertz. But still.
IMO, only getting Ludwick would be about as exciting and helpful as getting Ankiel was last year for outfield help.
@49, I didn’t realize both of them are FAs soon. Minor and Milligan are very likely better than what Beane could do in the draft, but it still strikes me as a little too much. We’d need to give another OK prospect, I’d bet.
Willingham is like Dunn was. The door always seems to be open, but we never knock.
51 – since it’s better than what he could do in the draft he would probably agree to the deal unless another team would give him a better deal and I doubt that there is a team that would. I think the question is whether Wren would. I think he should since it makes us a whole lot better this year and we still salvage some future value due to the draft picks.
Also, those guys probably wouldn’t be all that expensive if the Braves wanted to bring them back. (Willingham for LF and Prado to 3b if Chipper retired, and/or Crisp in CF).
53 – agreed. Especially if we can get a team to take Lowe off our hands.
37 – In the linked Peanut article he says that Ludwick is ‘athletic enough to play center.’ As Stu points out, he can help, especially if he can play a little CF if needed. If that’s the only deal though, I certainly won’t be happy.
As somebody who watched Willingham attempt to catch a lot in AAA, there’s no chance to him being able to catch now. He couldn’t do it then, he certainly can’t do it now. I know we’re only talking emergency, but I’d say that’s even highly unlikely.
IMO, Wuertz is not an upgrade on what is down at Gwinnett, Crisp should be a last resort.
Is it ok if i call Constanza “George”?
I think that’s definitely what we’re going to call Constanza.
ETA: It’s like the only requirement for being a leadoff hitter is that you play CF.
Well, he’s pretty quick. So I guess there’s that at least.
He did put up a .361 OBP.
Guts of a cat burglar!
If only his name was Jorge instead of Jose.
If only his name were Bossman Junior.
So I guess this just became the “Summer of George”, so to speak
It looks like Dan Uggla is doing his Dan Uggla impression.
Did Chip just make a “mom’s basement” joke…
That was nice.
Now that was pretty awesome
Looks like we’ve got Good Beachy so far
We live in a cynical world. A cynical world.
And this video makes me happy:
Beckett gives the kid the ball
“Can’t Stand Ya”
Chip just guessed Gary Sheffield for the last player other than Hanley Ramirez to lead the Marlins in stolen bases. That is amazing.
@68, Thank you for sharing. Definitely a sweet moment.
All of the ESPN.com guys are saying the Braves are still in on Pence. Earlier it sounded like it was a matter of the Phillies either getting it done or not. But apparently the Braves aren’t conceding.
You know, if you believe any of those guys.
On that note…still can’t figure out why the Braves aren’t in on Michael Bourn. Or why nobody seems to think they are. He seems like a perfect fit. Power is not the only way to improve your team. OBP, speed and good defense do it too.
Dammit AAG you’re killing us.
@73
He bats left handed, we need a right handed bat for our line up.
While we’re at it, get Furcal. He can’t be worse than AAG.
@70–Juan Pierre?
@75– We also need a leadoff hitter who gets on base once in a while. Our leadoff OBP has got to be around, what, .310 this year? I like Schafer a lot, but he’s still not getting on base enough to be a competent leadoff hitter.
I get the need for a righty bat, but it’s not the only thing we need.
I’ve really come around to a proposal somebody made the other night about offering something big to Houston for Bourn and Pence, then moving Prado to shortstop. Sounds weird, and I’m sure the Braves are too conservative to do it, but there’s no reason to think Prado wouldn’t be a reasonably competent shortstop. Probably not AAG, but you could use him as a late-game defensive replacement and get the best offensive lineup out there.
Rosenthal says Phillies close to getting Pence, deal expected to be completed tonight. Singleton removed from the game in Clearwater, so I guess that ship has now sailed. But again, we have tons of pitching
@73-agreed
Since AAG is supposedly an all-glove sort of guy, I imagine little bits of him disappearing when he does crap like dropping routine double play balls. Without his glove, he’s just non-existent in the context of a baseball game. Soon he’ll disappear completely, and we’ll just play with 8 men. Fredi will bat a void in the two hole.
Leadoff hitting is overrated.
The Braves already had a Bourn last year in Blanco before they traded him. Who wants to see that again?
Maybe that means we’ll go after Upton… Or maybe I’ll be weeping when we get crappy parts and leave all of our pitching prospects to rot.
Pence about to become a Phillie, tweets Ken Rosenthal. (Sorry, didn’t see mention @79).
Damn it, Frank, do something. Ludwick is not defined as “something.” And if he is, please tell us it’s because Liberty Media is cheap and unfit for team ownership.
I am glad Pence is going to the Phillies if they are giving up the farm for him.
Phillies get Pence, Braves will get another ‘Wren job’ like Ludwick.
MLB should investigate collusion between GM Wade and his old team the Phillies. Oswalt and now Pence for what, exactly?
Phillies gave up 2 top 50 prospects for Pence. If we were to beat that, this blog would have shat pants.
@78
If the price is right for bourn, fine go get him. But even if we got him we still have a need for a Right handed bat, which is a more pressing issue in the first place. Considering what the Phillies are giving up for Pence, I would imagine bourn would cost more than hes worth.
Guys, don’t panic. We’re on our 3-year-long “wait for Chipper to come back” plan. It always works.
@88- He might. Wade certainly seems to be pushing for a lot. But you don’t have the high-profile battle between Philly and Atlanta like you did with Pence. And Bourn isn’t Drayton McLane’s favorite player on the planet, so there’s that. I’m guessing he’d cost a lot less than Pence.
‘scuse me, according to Keith law’s mid-year list, 2 top-25 prospects. Seriously, no one should be mad about this…
Who needs Pence? We got Wil Nieves.
http://www.thegoodphight.com/2011/7/19/2280448/hunter-pence-probably-isnt-that-good-at-baseball
Phillies blog just ten days ago on why Pence isn’t worth it.
I think everyone is a little delusional about how good Pence is… I’d say the Phillies definitely overpaid for him and I’m glad it wasn’t us
Shrinkage? Costanza’s hit three balls that haven’t collectively gone 90 feet.
So now will Buster Olney tell us that the Phillies don’t value OBP as much as other teams?
Now go get Ludwick and Furcal for mid-tier prospects, or Bourne for Minor.
@90–good call–let the Phils have him at that price
@94–ftw
I don’t think I’d enjoy being a phils phan at all. I lack the ability to self-induce vomiting on other phans at the ballpark, so I wouldn’t really fit in, and while getting actual players at trade deadlines would be fun, I think I’d rather get to watch talented kids grow up. Trading 6 years of both singleton and cosart for a year and a half of Pence awkwardly staggering around the outfield would not increase happiness in the long term. The Wren way sucks in the short term, but it rewards patience and breeds character in fans. I am at peace with it and the Ryan Ludwick it will provide us this year.
@94
I would be happy if Constanza started doing the opposite of everything he’s done at the plate tonight. And after the Stanton AB, in the field, too.
‘Can’t stand ya.’
Nice play George
Hinske = Gazelle
@98
I preferred the Ted Turner/John Schuerholz way of the 1990’s:
JS: “We’ve got Glavine, Smoltz and Avery. But there’s this Maddux fellow who can help us a little.”
TT: “Sign him. No matter the cost.”
Yeah, I know those days aren’t coming back, but I miss them desperately.
Hinske has an amazing knack for barely making routine plays and somehow looking spectacular doing it. You’d think someone would pay him more than he’s making to do that for them. Someone like Dayton Moore.
phillies got pence!?!?!
Slamming Wren for not acquiring Pence seems unfair.
Slamming Wren for hiring Fredi, not paying players above slot in the draft, hiring a hitting coach whose name I won’t repeat because it makes me vomit, de-emphasizing OBP, signing Uggla for 60 million dollars, getting rid of Kelly Johnson, hiring Fredi, and allowing Schafer to play every day? Fair. Actually, I encourage it.
@103: also the nice days when a previous year Cy Young award winner like Maddux, with Boras as his agent, could be had for five years and 28 million.
Getting rid of Kelly Johnson? LOL.
Unban the Dan!
Now THAT’s how you extend a hitting streak.
Danny!
Yay!
Still only one sac fly since may 27
@103 – We’re the poor kids now for sure.
Uggla!!!
Uggla just murdered that rally.
104 — It’s the Jim Edmonds way.
Fatso hit a grand slam for KC, then admired it for so long that he caused benches to clear the next AB.
@103, the Braves were not the highest bidder for Maddux. He took less to come here.
117 – Similar to Cliff Lee and the Phillies.
BTW Freddie Freeman is hitting .295 and has an OPS of .847, while Ryan Howard is hitting .246 and has an OPS of .796.
@117
Yep, $6 million short of the Yankees’ offer, IIRC. But the Braves were in it and offered what he perceived as the best chance to win. Then eight months later, the midseason deal for McGriff.
Eighteen years later, in near-deadline trades and free agency, we give the aroma of dumpster diving. So much for providing a FA/trade target the best chance to win the World Series. And the only way Liberty Media gives a damn about rings would be to ask, “What do they cost?” Sad.
Beachy’s fastball apparently bats for the marlins, but it only got two hits off of him. /Chip.
I’ve say that Beachy showed the guts of a cat burglar tonight, what about you Chip?
@120 – Or “how many hotel porns do we have to sell to offset the cost of those rings?”
George takes away an save opportunity!
It’s Festivus for Constanza.
I know this’ll sound churlish, but it annoys me that the only thing Jorge has done tonight is cost Kimbrel a save opportunity.
Constanza is so clutch. He’s like Jeter if Jeter were a weak hitting seven year minor leaguer just called up from AAA.
Not going to complain about us scoring runs.
@126 I’m hoping it helps keep Kimbrel out of the game. Forget saves, he and Venters need days off.
And now Kimbrel will get the night off.
A sac fly!!!!
Years ago there was an outfielder known for making the hard plays look easy and the easy plays look hard.
You know, this Beachy kid can do some things.
Let’s continue to ban the dan. Dan sucks.
Braves don’t get a walk in the game? How often does that happen? Way too much this year. I know Hensley is a paddy-cake softballer, but good grief.
Let’s go get Upton.
Upton is not the man. He averages more strikeouts than hits, has no power, doesn’t hit many doubles, and has not had a triple all year. For a speed guy that’s an important stat. He cant bunt (sac hits) or hit fly balls when they’re needed. We need an offensive impact, not another unproductive sack of bones.
Well, we let all those offensive impacts go to our rivals the last 3 days, so Upton is all we have left.
@137, Then who should we get, smart guy?
george, just up from AAA
Byrd would be nice for the value and same production minus steals. But upton gets caught a lot, so not much of a loss there.
@137
Are you Ludwick’s wife?
@133
Good thing he will anchor our 18 man rotation next year.
@141 – Ha, I wonder if Wun posts at a Pirates fan site now. Bravesjournal is sorely lacking in defensive, irrational wives of players these days.
With an 11 man rotation we could send anyone with an option down for 10 days and have a huge bench.
Crasnick saying Bourn now on Braves’ radar (says he wasn’t before). Hmmm…..
Ludwick=studdick? Upton is just not very good. And he’s drunker than d-Lowe (BAC-high) at the dirt track.
How do you guys feel about the Pence deal? Did the Phillies overpay?
Absolutely. Pence is an above average player (definitely not a superstar) and it looks like the Astros got a Teixeira type package.
@148 Well that’s good to hear, at least.
Hell yeah they overpaid. Pence is having a nice year, but he’s not the impact player that Houston valued him to be. Houston took advantage of a weak market.
Now how about our CF issue, Frank. So glad these injuries happened this week and not next week. CF was an issue before, now its major.
Baghdad Bowman says that the injuries are irrelevant to the Braves in the trade market. Can’t imagine that to be actually true.
What would be awesome would be if the Braves were to be able to go get Upton, Willingham, and Furcal and pay less than what the Phillies did for Pence.
Upton for Minor
Willingham for Hoover and low-level guy
Furcal for mid-tier prospect
Edit: and DOB still saying Quentin is best fit.
The Braves are trying to put on a show and not appear desperate so they don’t lose leverage.
Astros apparently wanted two of top four pitching prospects plus more. Kudos to Wren for declining.
MLBTR….
The Braves offered a four-player package to the Astros for Hunter Pence, tweets ESPN’s Jerry Crasnick. However, Ken Rosenthal of FOX Sports says the Astros sought two of the Braves’ top four pitching prospects and another good young pitcher, so a deal was not reached. With Pence and Carlos Beltran off the board, here’s the latest on the Braves’ hunt for a hitter…
The Braves are almost certain to land an outfielder before the deadline, reports Rosenthal. He cites the names you have been hearing for a while: B.J. Upton, Michael Bourn, Ryan Ludwick, Carlos Quentin, and Josh Willingham.
Bourn is on the Braves’ radar, tweets Crasnick. Padres right fielder Ludwick is “more down the list of options.”
The Braves are targeting a center fielder, tweets Yahoo’s Jeff Passan, though it doesn’t rule them out on corner guys.
Thank you Wren…Thank you
Good good. Pence is definitely not the kind of player you make that kind of deal for. Matt Kemp, maybe, but obviously not Pence.
@155 I agree…kudos to Wren for not selling the whole farm for Pence. There are better fitting options still available and if he decides to replace Agony as well I would be a huge fan of our deadline deals
Anyone heard anything about bullpen help?
So apparently the Astros were looking for 2 of the top 4 prospects from the Braves (I’m guessing Minor + Delgado, but just a guess) plus another pitching prospect that Braves are high on.
So I would say it’s good the Braves turned them down. If they’d gone for that kind of deal, I’m pretty sure Braves Journal would have caught on fire.
Seriously, since the Braves lost out on “top” options, they can fill more holes. If I’m counting correctly, there’s at least 4 obvious ones: CF, RH bench bat, SS (even though the org doesnt want to admit that a 0.8 WAR needs upgrading), and RH relief pitcher.
I am more than happy to see the Phillies overpay for Pence…..
I’d get really excited for a Bourn acquisition. I’d go to his first game, even if it’s a Lowe start. If 155 is true, that was an insane asking price for Pence, but I guess it doesn’t hurt to ask. I suppose years of selling have made a pretty good seller out of Ed Wade. Probably not the major quality I’d look for in a GM though.
Bourn would make sense for the Braves. I think that Wren will find a way to improve our team without undermining our future….
Prospect-huggers were opposed to trading “future super star” Andy Marte too.
Dan, the Astros probably asked for Teheran and Minor. That’s ridiculous.
Opposed to trading him for Renteria in any event. They got a miracle season out of him in 07 that they had no right to expect and cashed in, but that doesn’t mean it was a great idea.
Yeah, I’m all for dealing prospects as long as you get equal value. The Pence deal was not equal value.
This was a good trade for for Philly, make no mistake, but it was hardly a case where the Braves should have topped the offer – two top 50 prospects – top 25 depending on who you want to believe – is hardly fire sale pricing.
Have we come up with a nickname for Costanza yet? T-Bone is what I would go with, it’s what George always wanted.
Pretzels.
THESE PRETZELS ARE MAKING ME THIRSTY!
“For I am Costanza, Lord of the Idiots.” Works for me.
Hahaha. T-bone would be perfect.
I am never a fan of Pence. I always worry that he will turn out to be another Nate if he becomes a Brave.
Good to see Dan is turning the corner. Otherwise I would mention his name in the above sentence as well.
kc
I absolutely agree. There’s something about Pence that makes me think he’s bound to turn into a pumpkin at some point. But, him being a Philly makes me think he’ll be a 35 HR threat for the next 5 years. Sigh.
He’ll be like ibanez: of course he’s a 35 hr threat because he plays in a bandbox, but he will make his fair share of outs. i agree he is mclouth. and i still have some hope for our own mclouth, who happens to be the real el guapo.
Love the El Guapo reference.
And the “T-Bone” nickname.
Also, count me as glad we did not get Pence for a Matt Kemp type package.
@174 It would be so funny if Wren trades for Frenchy. I hope that will never happen because I don’t think anyone of us here can handle it…
#178–Yes, it would never happen, but it would be rich…..
I also think that we would quickly see the return of the Frenchy of 2008….
T-Bone when he does something good. Jerk Store when he sucks.
In other news, the AJC sports headline today says, “Braves Rout Marlins.” Really? Is this the effect of low expectations for this team? Wasn’t the game actually tied 0-0 into the 7th? How is that a rout?
Whew. I too am relieved that we didn’t give up all that for Pence. He is a better player than i thought when i looked closer but not THAT good. Phils gave up 2 high A guys. good deal for them. As someone mentioned before, in that park he may hit 35 hr. The phils have improved themselves. Mr. Wren?
“Have we come up with a nickname for Costanza yet?”
Art Vandalay?
Cal Varnson
I’m assuming Matt Kemp’s not available, but man would he be a nice acquisition. He would absolutely be worth giving up multiple top prospects for.
#184–I agree with both the assumptions and the conclusion….
I think that Wren will act soon….
@184 – considering what the Phils gave up for Pence, can you imagine what Kemp’s asking price would be?
Heyman is now saying that the Indians are the likely landing spot for Ludwick and that the Braves are focusing elsewhere.
Hopefully Wren is focusing on Byrd/Crisp/Bourn + Willingham. I’m really happy he didn’t overpay for Pence.
I would be willing to give up Teheran AND Delgado only for two players: Kemp or Justin Upton.
@188, doesn’t Kemp become an FA after next season? You’d give 12 seasons of those two for a year and a third of Kemp?
@189- He’d also be a guy I’d rework the team’s salary structure to keep. I’d probably deal Minor + Delgado (or maybe Vizcaino, though I’d make Teheran untouchable) + lower level pieces for Kemp, and then work my ass off to sign him to an extension.
Wow. The Phillies are sending Domonic Brown down and are sticking with Ibanez in LF. I guess we’re catching a break.
I’m convinced the Braves would have done the same with Heyward if they acquired Pence.
So another good reason to have bailed on the over priced Pence deal
David O’Peanut is really banging the Bourn drum on Twitter today. I asked him if Bourn’s career OPS+ of 89 is any concern to him. Also, if he noticed that this is the only year in Bourn’s career he’s even been league average.
@194 – Do Not Tap On Glass. Those signs are up for a reason.
@193, I’d wait for the deadline before deciding that.
Bourne is not a guy I’d be super stoked to get, but it’s much better than standing pat if we don’t overpay.
OPS+ doesn’t factor in defense or baserunning. Bourn is certainly an above average player. Guess it all depends on how much the Astros want for him.
194, we don’t have all that many league average outfielders. In fact, we have none. Average has value. I’d be super happy if we could get one or two average guys for a reasonable price.
Bourn isn’t league average. Over the past three seasons, he has been one of the best center fielders in baseball in terms of value.
11.9 bWAR
13.3 fWAR
He’s 4-5 win player. I’d prefer him over all the others, even Upton.
OPS+ also overvalues SLG at the expense of OBP, which is the more important component.
Prospect-huggers were opposed to trading “future super star” Andy Marte too.
I was opposed mainly because it appeared to be largely motivated by money. The Red Sox sent a bunch of money back with Renteria. Much like the Joey Devine-Mark Kotsay trade, which mainly appeared to be motivated by the fact that the A’s sent a bunch of money back with Kotsay.
In both cases, it looked like we were willing to take a less good player because we were willing to accept the cash. Obviously, it worked out in Marte’s case, perhaps because the Braves had more information about him than we did, or perhaps because some prospects just go bust. But in general, I hate the idea of trading prospects for cash.
I’d love to get Bourn, but Upton might be a better choice because he is right handed.
I think Upton might be the better choice because he’d come cheaper than Bourn. At least according to DOB.
http://twitter.com/#!/ajcbraves/status/97335392856059904
All things being equal, though, Bourn would be my first choice of the entire OF trade market.
I actually want Upton more than Bourn. (And due to the fact that I think the disparity in price would be larger than the disparity in talent, I’d probably rather have Span than Bourn, too.) But I know I’m in the minority.
From Peanut:
“Because the Braves have a surplus of young pitching talent in their organization, fans and even some of their players (off the record) have questioned why they are not willing to deal Minor or some of their other pitching prospects.”
http://markbowman.mlblogs.com/2011/07/30/braves-have-widened-their-focus/
Upton is more tantalizing, but therein lies the problem. Bourn is by far the surer bet IMO.
@205,
The players should be.
Hell, let’s get both.
Recapped, sorry for the delay.