Padres 2, Braves 1 (12 innings)

San Diego Padres vs. Atlanta Braves – Box Score – August 25, 2009 – ESPN

What a waste. If the Braves hadn’t tied it up with two outs in the ninth, everybody could at least have gone home.

Jair Jurrjens was brilliant, but Mat Latos was better, or at least more effective, taking a perfect game to the fifth inning before ACHE broke it up. Jurrjens loaded the bases in the first but got out of it, and was pretty great from then on, except for one pitch he hung to Gonzalez for a homer in the third. He left with two out in the eighth, having allowed five hits and striking out seven, and only able to lose it. At least the Braves managed to get him off the hook.

Matos left after the seventh (with only 89 pitches thrown) and it almost came back to bite the Padres. The Braves loaded the bases with one out in the eighth, but Infante and Prado popped up. In the ninth, McCann singled with one out. Gorecki ran for him, and stole second. ACHE walked, and LaRoche hit a single to score Gorecki. Diaz, for some reason, tried to bunt for a hit, and couldn’t. The Braves loaded the bases again with two out in the tenth, but ACHE struck out against a LOOGY. Medlen allowed a leadoff double in the twelfth, and almost got out of it, but gave up a two-out double to the punchless David Eckstein to lose it.

97 thoughts on “Padres 2, Braves 1 (12 innings)”

  1. The Braves hitters looked so confused against Latos that it wasn’t funny. This offense…I have nothing to say anymore.

    Eckstein again…I mean, I am sick of him.

  2. That little, evil sh–, EckSTAIN, is going to ruin our season. THis makes me livid.

    But YES…while it’s not completely impossible still to win the wild card, this is the game where the flicker of hope I had left goes out. You can’t lose games to bottom feeding teams like the Padres.

    Plus, as much as I loathe Eckstein, you can’t score 1 run in 12 innings against a below average pitching staff.

    The Braves sealed the 2009 season tonight. Now I can start turning more and more attention to football, sadly.

  3. taking two of three against any team is a good series folks, the team just needs to quit making it so hard on themselves

  4. @6 Latos does look to have pretty good stuff, but seems like the Braves hitters are so unprepared for him considering this is the second time we have faced him.

    Can we stop losing the first game of every series?

  5. Per DOB, the reason behind the struggle of our future:

    “Heyward, rated the top prospect in baseball at midseason by Baseball America, was diagnosed with a bruised heel that might cause the slugging outfielder to miss two or three games.

    Freeman was placed on the seven-day DL with a bruised hand, which Braves general manager Frank Wren said resulted from the first baseman being repeatedly being jammed on inside pitches. Chipper Jones had a similar injury early this season.”

  6. Mac,

    Any particular reason why Conan O’Brien’s goofy “fake” international reporter is named “BRIAN MCCANN”?

  7. By the way, who in Heaven did the Mets piss off? What a totally unreal barrage of injuries they are dealing with this year. Santana now needs arthroscopic shoulder surgery, Delgado, Reyes, Beltran, Putz, Wright, Francoeur (ha!), Sheffield, Maine, etc. I mean, they deserve every bit of it, but it is just astounding what has happened to their club.

  8. and of all things, they finally get a player healthy (Wagner) and give him away for absolutely nothing

  9. sdp, growing up in Colorado, I hate the Rockies more than any other team not named the Mets or Phillies. Their fans are the absolute worst, in ’07 I went to Rockies-Braves (AKA the Chipper to Tulowitzki unassisted triple play game) and there were more Braves fans there than Rockies. Then flash forward to ‘Rocktober’ and everybody is talking about what great fans they have, blah blah blah.

    Their ballpark is a joke and what makes it all the more irritating is that most of their fans don’t seem to understand this. I was arguing with a Rockies fan just yesterday about the Rockies ‘great offense’ and I said that I’m sure that doesn’t have anything to do with Coors being #1 in park effect and Rockies fans are just too dumb to understand this concept.

    End rate. I HATE the Rockies/Rocktober and it seems they are pulling all kinds of crap already this season lately.

  10. Tough, gut wrenching loss. No doubt about it.

    So I’ll say it once again, this is a very mediocre baseball team being carried by some great pitching. But the game differential in wins (66) and quality starts (76) pretty much sums it up. They have underachieved on a massive scale.

    Not enough power early on, a mediocre defense, injuries and no running game to speak has left us right where we are…..just out of reach of the playoffs.

  11. I’m not sure if my game (Tex @ NYY) was more brutal than the Braves/Pads. Pretty close, but for different reasons.

    For the Braves, it’s another series where we drop the opener & put ourselves in an immediate hole. Sure, we should win the next 2, but this doesn’t help. It’s a bad pattern.

    Eckstein? I can’t even process him anymore. And Mat Latos looks like a stormtrooper from a WW2 flick.

    My American League game lasted 3 hours & 50 minutes tonight, but it felt like a flight to Argentina—when does it end?

    Yanks got beat by an ex-Brave (Millwood) and 2 former Braves farmhands (Feliz & Andrus). Millwood got bombed in the first inning, but settled down; Andrus had 2 huge hits; and in a 2-inning setup role, Feliz mowed down the Yanks with ease, hitting 99 on the gun several times.

    Rangers’ Grilli & Francisco tried to cough up a 10-5 lead in the 9th, but at 10-9 with 2 on & nobody out, Girardi tried to make Swisher bunt.

    He popped up—duh! Then they got rooked on a bad call during a game-ending DP, and that was that.

    Looking forward to spending Thursday at The Ted.

  12. I really thought we were going to win that. Very disappointing.

    I’ll say that ending it on a deep liner right at an OF was a nice microcosm for the game, though.

  13. When I saw Diaz bunt with two outs in the bottom of the ninth, I just sat there stunned for about ten minutes.

    I had the same reaction in ’92 at the end of the World Series. I just can’t fathom making that kind of call. Ever.

  14. Just thought I would give the blog a heads up.

    Should John Smoltz stay in his regular five man slot in the Cardinals rotation, the Braves will get to face off against old Smoltzy on the 12th or 13th of September in St. Louis.

  15. I know Diaz is hitting like .500 in recent games, but he has to go in the doghouse for a while for bunting with a man on third and 2 outs in the ninth. Bad, bad move.

  16. Chipper calls out Bobby in a diplomatic way.

    Jones: “Bobby’s of the old-school belief that if you’re healthy, it’s your job to play. I tend to agree with him 99, 98 percent of the time. When you’re in your 20s and early 30s, yeah, you should play. But as you get older, the grind of this lifestyle after 20 years of doing it, does take its toll.”


  17. I agree with Bobby. If you sign on (Especially 40 mil over the next 3 years) you play. (On that note, Ryan Churck is a wuss too.)

    This garbage is why Chipper is not and never has been a leader. Shut up and play. If you suck, then take it like a man and give no excuses about being tired, etc. Everyone is tired. Two weeks ago he was talking about how much the race had energized him. He is a prima donna and the braves are on the hook for him and Lowe for about 88 mil AFTER this year.

    (That 88 mil debt aint going to make it hard to find offense or anything.)

    If I was Bobby and read that garbage I move Chipper down to 7 and put Diaz in the 3, McCann can stay at 4, Yunel at 5, and LaRoche in the 6 since they actually look like they give a damn. (BTW the way ACHE is going, he needs to hit 8th)

    I am so sick of Chipper Jones’ crap. This team needs to find some offense in the offseaon and put him down in the order (or out the door) where he belongs.

  18. BTW, why did Wren give anyone who is only good for 3/4 of a season a 40 mil extention??????

    Doing the math, wouldn’t 30 mil been more apporpirate, you know 3/4 of the money for 3/4 of the games.

    Or how bout this, acutally draft, sign, and develop a replacement for the walking injury at 3b and Chipper wouldn’t have all the leverage.

  19. chipper thinks bobby’s right 98 or 99% of the time….i think chipper’s right about 50% of the time.

  20. I agree with Bobby. If you sign on (Especially 40 mil over the next 3 years) you play. (On that note, Ryan Churck is a wuss too.)

    Damn straight. I can’t believe the Mets are letting Santana get surgery before the end of the season. It’s just this sort of mollycoddling behavior that is emboldening today’s ballplayer. Eric Davis woulda played.

  21. One question for you guys (this is not being critical of Cox since I know he was short two men on the bench and his options were limited.) On LaRoche’s double in the 9th, if Cox pinch runs for Anderson with anyone who is faster than a sloth, does the runner score from first?

  22. @35,

    Are you out of your mind or are you just putting us on? Yeah, let’s put Chipper in the number 7 spot for spite; that makes a lot of sense.

    Yeah, I’m sick of that Chipper Jones crap. He’s been such a lousy player for fifteen years. How did he stay on the team so long? Why doesn’t he just leave? We could easily replace him with a real leader like, say, David Eckstein.

    Chipper should retire; he’s probably the worstest player in the entire world.

  23. Chipper’s right that he needs some time off, but it does annoy me that he went through the media.

  24. Having already secured a spot in the Championship Series, the Danville Braves swept the Appalachian League postseason awards, which were announced Tuesday.
    Right-hander Matt Crim, who’s already broken the single-season club record with 10 wins, was named Pitcher of the Year. First baseman Riaan Spanjer-Furstenburg, who leads the league in batting and RBIs, secured Player of the Year honors. And Paul Runge, who has guided the Braves to four Eastern Division titles in five years, was named Manager of the Year.

  25. @41, I wouldn’t mind seeing Chipper batting seventh. Lineup theory is hard for me. You have simulations saying one thing, tactical considerations saying another, and the traditional standard somewhere in the middle. This year, I’m guessing most simulations would spot him leadoff because he leads the team in OBP and is behind a couple of people in SLG. I’m not going to second guess a lineup, because I personally believe tactical considerations far outweigh the two or three extra runs you get the entire season from optimal ordering.

  26. Chipper is 1 for his last 28 (.035 BA). He needs to not only sit but Larry Wayne Jr. should also be on the DL.

    Cox is the idiot here, not Chipper.

  27. I for one just think Chipper needs to quit swinging at the first flippin pitch. As great a hitter as he is, his real value is in his ability to work a count and either get the pitcher on the ropes or take a walk.

    You can what you will about GA but his 7th inning at bat where he fouled off pitch after pitch (I think it was a 10 pitch at bat) was what got Latos out of the game b/c he was at 80 pitches through 6.2 innings.

    Chipper had seen something like 4 pitches in 3 at bats and was 0 for 3. I obviously prefer Chipper to GA but he really needs to be called out for the first pitch swinging and people are a bit harsh on GA. GA broke up the perfecto and worked a walk in the ninth to keep things going. Not really our main problem.

  28. Chipper’s last AB was actually a good one, and he hit that 3-2 pitch hard—just right at the OF, as was the case for everyone all night.

    Generally speaking, though, yeah, he’s in a terrible funk. He knows it, we know it, and Bobby must know it.

  29. well Chipper has a point, but he’s gone about it the wrong way. Its Wren’s and Bobby’s bad judgement of keeping 3 injured players on the bench instead of the DL that is causing this. Chipper had no choice but to play and Bobby couldnt sit him because Norton was our only bench guy. I will say that our roster judgement/construction has been brutal the last few weeks. When your PH specialist cant hit and cant play the field, he doesnt deserve a spot on the team. When you have three injured players that you know cant play for probably 5-6 games, you need to DL one or two of them.

    Im getting the sense that Chipper is wanting Bobby to go. Its the 2nd time in about a month that he’s used the media to talk about Bobby. The 1st was the Yunel situation and now his playing time.

  30. Agreed on Chipper’s final at bat. I just wish the rest of them had followed suit.

    Hicks wound up hitting 2 HRs last night, the first looked like a popup and just cleared the fence. The LF didn’t even turn around on the 2nd as it was scalded. Cleared everthing and had to go about 430 feet. He also played a good SS. C-Rod was 4 for 5 with 3 2Bs and was hitting the ball hard to all fields which is good to see and Kimbrel looks unhittable. Ortegano started and though he’s got good numbers this year, he got nothing. Every ball hit off of him was rocket and he wound up giving up 7 runs. Heyward pinch hit and hit a weak grounder to the pitcher, but they were trying to pitch around him with a base open and he just got impatient. Quite a specimen in person though.

  31. Spike,

    Really, your comment is stupid. Johan needs SURGERY!!! Two different things. Chipper is playing the old card because he is struggling. Get in bed, get treatment if you need it and play. BTW, Ryan Church is a wuss. Say what we want about ACHE, and I will, but he is at least in there and keeps his mouth shut.

    41 – The comment about hitting Chipper 7th was obviously hyperbole. Of couse that is not going to happen. That said if this team has any hope of contending when Heyward gets here, this team is going to have to find a someone to hit in the 3 and not count on Chipper so much because he is too old.

    Dusty – Really 2 HRs last night?? That is impressive. I live in Chattanooga and I have never seen anyone hit two out of there IN A SEASON. It is really hard to hit it out of Bellsouth. I may knock off early and go this afternoon. Hicks and Heyward look like someone created them in a baseball player producing lab. I could not agree with you more about Heyward. Last guy that looked as good as him that I saw in Bellsouth was Miguel Cabera when he came up through the Marlins system.

  32. Chipper is tired of Bobby, and so am I. However, Chipper has never been much of a leader and this pretty much cements that fact. No wonder Smoltz called him out and Diaz declared McCann as the leader of the team just a couple of weeks ago.

    Chipper will never be confused as a Derek Jeter or Varitek type team captain.

  33. That’s because he’s not leading Boston or the Yanks and interviewed on Sportscenter at least once a week.

    The real question is whether Chipper is as clutch as Jeter.

  34. For fun, I googled “Jeter team leader.” Without following any link, this is the excerpt Google shows for the first hit:

    “A-Rod a better hitter than Jeter, yes. A better clutch-hitter, maybe. A better team leader and winner, absolutley not.” (sic)

    Chipper just can’t compare. I mean, I would totally rather have Jeter than A-Rod as my shortstop. Totally.

  35. Stupup – please tone down the ad hominems. But really, what some folks might consider “stupid” is taking your multi million dollar investment and running it into the ground for the sake of some misbegotten chest-thumping contest. I am also glad that you have Bill Frist-like capacity to do medical analysis without any first hand knowledge. Most folks would take a guy like Church and consider that he has had two concussions and give him the benefit of the doubt. But no, you have correctly determined these guys are p*ssies who just won’t man up. Ya gotta be willing to crawl over broken glass, and give the people their bread and circuses, amirite?

    ITGs – gotta love ’em.

  36. @56, ITGs only exist if you engage them. Ignore them and they go back to being “that guy” in real life.

  37. worst AB of last night?

    1. Infante with runner at 3rd and 1 out and popup’s to SS

    2. Prado with runner at 3rd and 2 out’s and swings at pitch in LH batters box

    3. Yunel with bases loaded 1 out and k’s

    4. Anderson with bases loaded and two outs and k’s

    5. Diaz with runner at third with chance to win and try’s bunting

  38. I didn’t think most of those were bad ABs. I mean, yeah, #3 sucked a lot, but I don’t think it was bad, just unlucky.

    The only two that were bad were #5, which I still can’t believe, and #2, because the count was 0-2, IIRC, and he was clearly throwing a garbage pitch outside the zone. Also, the catcher set up three feet from his normal spot.

  39. @40,

    i wanted a PR in there for anderson as well. i imagine jurrjens would’ve PR if he weren’t the starting pitcher earlier in the game. and, yes, i think another runner would have had a great shot at scoring.

    gorecki had already PR for mccann, so anderson should have been coming out (gorecki to LF) of the ballgame anyway.

  40. Today I am feeling the “it’s a loss so everybody is bitching.” i do think this one is particularly troubling, but we have had bunches of those lately.

    Chipper had no business calling Bobby out on this. They have been shorthanded. However, yesterday would have been a time to play KJ at second, Prado at 3rd.

    The offensive problem last night was very related to not valuing the walk in, of, and for itself.

    Latos walked 0 players in 7 innings. He went to 3-0 and 3-1 counts about 5 times. Specifically, I remember Infante hitting a 3-1 pitch (it would have been a strike) hard on the ground at the 3rd baseman.

    I know many on here will disagree with this analysis. But Infante has never been “Captain ISO” He hits a few doubles and a very rare home run or triple. Maybe with McCann or Chipper when he isn’t slumping, you take a different approach.

    If Infante gets to 3-1 and hits the ball he has a 26 per cent chance of a single, 4 percent double, 1 per cent triple and 1 percent home run. The other 68 % he is out. If the pitcher misses with either of the next two pitches, Infante reaches base safely, the inning is extended by making the pitcher run up his pitch count against the next batter, and the pitcher learns that if he throws junk, Infante won’t swing at it.

    Infante wasn’t the only one.

    Being able to say “we hit a lot of hard line drives against Latos, didn’t we” doesn’t add to the score one bit.

  41. Survey: who remembers their butchy, female coach/athletic director from high school? C’mon… I know every school has one.

  42. A tough loss but losing this one doesn’t end our season just yet. We’ll lose some more in September. Latos actually pitched really well. Let’s get ’em tonight and tomorrow. I still like our chances. This team is not worse than the Rockies.

  43. Chipper is turning into a grumpy old man before our eyes, but I side with him on this. He’s played a lot more this season than the last few and he obviously could use a couple of days off in a row.

    He really should have had last night off against a weak opponent and with Prado returning. That would have given him two in a row. I’m guessing he mentioned this to Bobby and Bobby said, “If you’re not hurt, we need you in the lineup.”

  44. 63- That might be the most random question ever on Braves Journal, but I’ll answer it anyway. I didn’t have one at my high school, but there was totally a butchy one at my middle school.

  45. The Braves could enter September 10 games over 500.

    I’d take that in any given season!

    Go Braves

  46. like I said yesterday the Braves can keep winning series and will be 22 games over .500 this year. That has to be the goal. They need to take care of business tonight and tomorrow. Latos is a good pitcher and has dominated every level so far. He’s tough to hit

  47. I find it hard to believe that as shorthanded as the Braves are, if Larry Wayne went to Bobby and said he needed a night off, he wouldn’t give it to him.

    Basically, shut the F up, Chipper.

  48. Yeah, I’ll go on record and call this season a success no matter how September shakes out. In April, I thought this was *at best* a .500 team. We’re well over that now and still playing good ball, last night notwithstanding. I mean, think where we are compared to last year. We’re playing meaningful games late in the season, and still have a decent shot at the postseason.

    In less than one calendar year, FW rebuilt the rotation and added some key position players, without sacrificing the future of the club. We’re WC contenders right now, and the next several years look very bright.

  49. It’s pretty hilarious that after missing the playoffs of a few years now, the team is sorta in a playoff chase and Chipper’s asking for days off through the media.

    What’s the opposite of being a team leader?

  50. think we could trade for Neftali Feliz and have him close next season

    Rosenthal, thinks we may look at Wagner this offseason

  51. Ryan Church = huge upgrade over Frenchy in all aspects, hurt or not. Whats our record again since groundhog left?

  52. @75 I would say getting rid of Frenchy was huge. However, I hope Ryan Church is not with the team next year. He is basically glass or as Smitty said…

    What a punk…

  53. So why all the picking on Church? Are McLouth, Infante, et al. wimps because they didn’t play because of ailments this year? Is Church not really hurting?

  54. There is another point to injuries being ignored by the caveman crowd.

    An injury can prevent optimal performance, no matter how hard somebody “gives it his all.” Paricularly with balky hamstrings and obliques, the loss in performance when they try to “be tough” is usually not worth it.

    IF Prado is ready to go (and based on last night, I don’t think so) then Average Prado is a better player than “Tough It Out Chipper”. Average Infante is a better player than “Tough it Out Church”.

  55. This is a much better team than at the beginning of the year, but have given away too many opportunities for wins to make a real run, I think.

    Anyway, Mets fans are really happy with Jeffy because of his attitude. When he was here, everyone complained that he played too much.

    As for playing everyday, as much as I admire Cal Ripken, the fact is, he played at times when he probably should not have and may have hurt the team. I think Chipper was just stating a fact (don’t we want players to tell the truth rather than speak in cliches?). He certainly isn’t refusing to go out there. As for him not being a leader, does 9 division titles not mean anything? I’m not even sure what being a leader means–does he have to limp out there on a broken leg to be a “leader?” Maybe run out to the mound and get in a fight to stir up the team.

    And I love it when people call major league baseball players “punks.” Real meaningfull analysis.

  56. Joe Sheehan said in a chat yesterday that the Braves should trade Jurrjens in the offseason.

    Reasons: The glut of starting pitching, and he is the most overvalued right now.

    Should I dare ask if anyone agrees?

  57. I asked Sheehan what he thought we should get for Jurrjens, but he didn’t answer. I think we have a serious glut, people; Medlen is probably a legitimate MLB-caliber starter, which, with Hudson, puts us 7 deep.

    I mean, it’s nice to have the depth, but it seems a waste of resources for Medlen to have the role he seems to have now.

  58. Cliff, Spike, etc,

    I am not part of the caveman crowd. If you need a day off, take it. All I ask if for some reason your team is depleted by injuries don’t go spouting off in the media about your manager not giving you a day off. Don’t play the old card when you are struggling two weeks after talking about how invegorating the pennant race is.

    Spike, Church’s concussions have no point in discussion. He has a joint ‘issue’ in his back. Like I said earlier, love him or loath him ACHE is at least out there and keeping his mouth shut. Again, like Santana SURGERY, a concussion is FAR more serious than a hurt joint.

    I promise you will never hear me complain about injuries like concussions or things that require DL stints. The thing that gets me riled up is guys complaning about needing a day conviently while struggling. Chipper is trying to play off the fact that generally over the last 3 months he has generally not been very good. He has played the old card conviently the last couple of years. There had been no ‘average Prado’ to take their place the last few days, unless you want to put KJ at 2nd.

    Granted Church has played better than Frency did especially defensively, the fact is, Diaz, Prado, and now LaRoche have had far more to do with the good run than Church has.

  59. As to what to do with pitchers, somebody on here proposed moving Jurrjens earlier this year. However, the kind of talent you move him for is say, Ryan Braun. That is, elite hitting position player, coming up on Super 2 season. If a team will make a deal like that, you do the deal.

    What about a “quantity trade”? That is, is there a package of stuff put together that you would trade Jurrjens for? Problem with that is that we have 4th and 5th starters all over the place several potentially better starters a year or 2 farther out, several high end relievers (like Kimbrel, but maybe we need a Closer TM if we keep neither Gonzalez nor Soriano)and mediocre middle infielders and, going into next year, outfielders (Besides Heyward you have Diaz, Church, McLouth, and Schafer). So, what we need over the next few years are (1) a plausible Chipper replacement, (2) a credible ML first baseman (if that is Freeman, that is 2011), and (3) an elite hitter for somewhere (depending on Heyward or (1) or (2).

    So, if you do a “Quantity trade” you go for something like Gamel and another player or Lars Anderson and another player.

  60. I just think that, as usual, people are trashing everybody after a loss far more than they deserve to be trashed. I don’t know what Ryan Church has done that he has deserved to be labeled a pussy for. In fact, I think most people are just assuming it because it’s what his former team thought. He had back spasms and has been out a couple days. He was in the on-deck circle and would’ve hit had Prado reached. The Mets have a lot of thoughts that are incredibly off-base and stupid. I don’t know why we’d believe them on this one thing.

    I’m not gonna lie, though: that was a really awful loss. That was a flashback to May right there. Everybody’s approach at the plate was beyond awful. As mentioned before, you could point out at least five ABs from that game and stick them right into the list of 15-20 worst ABs I’ve seen all year (non-Francoeur division). Nobody had a clue of what in the hell they were doing at the plate.

    Matt Diaz’s drag bunt was inexplicable, and I’m pretty sure it was all his idea and therefore all his fault. That is not something Bobby Cox would even think of telling him to do. It let Bell off the hook and may very well have cost us the game.

    And Bobby Cox doesn’t escape blame, because his bullpen management was as awful as ever. I’m not sure it wound up costing us the game the way it turned out, but it probably would have had it gone to the 13th. You have Soriano, who I’m pretty sure threw less than 10 pitches in the 11th, in the game and the pitcher’s spot due up fourth in the 12th. Why in God’s name do you take him out? I know, I know…he’s overtaxed, blah blah blah. We’re in a freaking pennant race here. Frankly, he needs to be able to go more than one inning at this point if need be. You made the double switch, why don’t you use it? Then, OK, he took Soriano out. Why would you then use your long reliever when he’s gonna have to be pinch-hit for the next half-inning? It made absolutely zero sense.

    Just an awful game all the way around. This game in-and-of-itself does not eliminate us. But if we are still 5.5 games back at the end of the week, it will be over. We simply cannot afford to throw out abortions like that against teams like the Padres at this point. I’m starting to agree with the people who are saying that even with the way the team was structured for the first two months, we simply pissed away too many games this year to have a legitimate shot. And make no mistake, last night’s game was one of them.

    EDIT: Trading Jurrjens is a brilliant move. Yeah, trade one of maybe two guys on the staff who we can count on at all headed into the future because he’s the “most overvalued”, whatever the hell that means. There is no way I trade Jurrjens, at all. He is untouchable, at least for anything anyone would be willing to give us. And frankly, anyone who thinks differently does not know anything about this team. Trade Medlen if you want to trade one, for God’s sake!

  61. If you get a Gordan Beckam type guy then JJ is tradable, but unless you fill a need as mentioned by Cliff (hey I agree with you) then heck no don’t trade JJ.

  62. Diaz’ bunt was actually brilliant in its’ conception but hideous in its’ execution.

    If he puts it one foot to the left, the 1B has to field it and no way the pitcher (who is caught completely by surprise) beats a swift and unsurprised Diaz to first.

    Shoot, Willy Mays Hayes woulda scored from second on that.

  63. I wouldn’t trade Jurrjens, reliable starting pitcher is just too hard to find. However, I would hope Jurrjens is not on that Andruw Jones diet. He could maybe get in a little better shape. Also a lot “baseball” people complain that Jurrjens doesn’t strike enough people out….

    As far as Church…he has been hurt ever since he’s been here.

  64. If someone played shortstop for 21 or so years, hit .276 with an OBP of .340, and slugged .447, is that a HOF worthy career?

  65. I’m sure the new thread will be up soon, but there’s no way I give up JJ for Beckham. I gave a list earlier this year of the 5 I would CONSIDER trading JJ for and it was Braun, Markakis, Kemp, Ethier and Bruce. Of course at the time OF was the biggest need and Bruce was healthy.

  66. I said Becklam ‘type’ guy. When I say that I mean young, has talent and some arbitration years left.

    EDIT: Also plays a position of need in the organization, ie OF or Chipper Replacement

  67. Need in the organization this off season for production in 2010 is (I think)

    1. A bopper (either targeted for left field or 1B or poaibly 3B if you can move chipper across the diamond).

    2. A Closer TM (that assumes that either we don’t offer arb to Gonzo and Soriano or that both decline).

    For longer / intermediate returns (2011 and thereafter) organizational needs are:

    1. A realistic replacement for Chipper (that is where Gordon Becham makes a lot of sense).

    2. Another young starter (may be Diamond, Ortegano, Rohrbough, or whoever). (this also makes a Jurrjens trade questionable unless we really get something good because then it might be 2 young high ceiling pitchers)

    3. A First Baseman (Freeman MIGHT be the guy, but we don’t know).

    4. An upper minors high ceiling catcher (I know we just let 4 go over the last 3 years [Max Ramirez, Brayan Pena, Salty, and Flowers], but now we have no one in the pipeline that looks as good as Brayan Pena did 3 or 4 years ago.)

    5. Another high ceiling outfielder (besides Heyward and the possibility of Schaffer bouncing back).

  68. Dusty @92,

    Beckham is probably major league minimum for 2 more years with 4 arb years and Jurrjens is probably Super 2 at the end of this year with 4 arb years left. Even if you have Beckham lower than Jurrjens, the 2 extra years are big (and as has been pointed out, Boras will not leave a penny on the table with Jurrjens).

  69. Does anyone know what Jurrjens service time is, and where the cutoff level is looking for Super 2’s? I can’t find anything indicating he’s going to be in the top 17%.

  70. My back of the envelope math puts Jair at something like 2 yrs 50 days or so (projected), which isn’t close. Yunel doesn’t look like he will make it at 2 years 121 days (projected)

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