Is it just the Mets and Braves who have fans that grouse about the team not having: consistent hitting (or it’s related “XXXX is killing us”) /the heart to win? It’s amazing how similar the complaints are over on Metsblog. I suspect this discussion is had on almost all non-first place team fan sites… but I’m not sure (also not sure I could stomach the research required to know).
I think him trying to hit for power has screwed him up. Along with him not being that smart of a hitter to being with, then you have what we see now.
He did hit a legit .293 last year. Should have just built from that.
It wasn’t that legit. His BABIP was .337 on an LD% of 19.4%, so he sort of got lucky all season. This year, his BABIP is .268 on an LD% of 21.2%, so technically he’s getting unlucky even though he’s looked like crap pretty much all year.
Parish
on July 2, 2008 at 3:16 pm
AAR –
BABIP = LD% +120?
Hap
on July 2, 2008 at 3:29 pm
Any stat heads….
I am thinking there has to be a correlation between the outcome of the Braves games and whether they are tending to work the count or not. Last night after two batters were walked on 9 pitches, McCann swings at the first pitch and grounds out weakly. This really reinforced this thread of thought I have had. My first thought was to look at pitch count vs. score of the game. So I did that for the last 20 games and it looks like there is some relationship. But it makes sense in a blowout that the team scoring all the runs will see more pitches because they keep scoring runs and thus have more at bats. Does anyone have any thoughts on a better way to approach this? Some way to weight the pitch count… maybe something like pitch count over number of PAs? I am convinced the games where we seem, as a team, to be working the count and not hacking at the first pitch usually are closer or have a good outcome.
Apparently, even though we lost (our 6th out of 7th against the Phils), it was a turning point and we’re gonna win the division…
This guy blows my mind more and more with each article.
For the record, Francoeur’s last RBI was on June 19th, the day Bradley wrote his “What’s with the venom against Frenchy” column. In the two weeks since that column, Frenchy hasn’t picked up a single f’ing RBI. If he hadn’t sucked this bad his entire career, I would wonder if he was doing it just to spite Bradley personally.
Anyway, Mark Bradley, LOL.
Mark Bradley
on July 2, 2008 at 3:32 pm
But seriously, what’s with all the venom against Frenchy? I don’t get it.
Parish, the rule of thumb is supposed to be that BABIP ought to be around LD% + 120 points. Frenchy’s BABIP was a lot higher than LD% + 120 last year, so he was getting lucky and having more hits fall in than you’d think ought to.
This year, his BABIP should be more like .330, but it’s below .270.
I’m still finding it hard to believe his LD% is 21% — he never seems to hit the ball that hard.
spike (Back in the ATL)
on July 2, 2008 at 3:34 pm
Never Mind. Misunderstood the question – love the edit feature
NickC
on July 2, 2008 at 3:34 pm
You just have to look back the the 4 games series against the Mets to see what we can do when we work the count.
We had Maine and Pelfrey gone in around 4 innings and then went to work on the pen.
Tony
on July 2, 2008 at 3:46 pm
Wait his last RBI was on 06/19….
AAR,
The games I did see last year, Francouer looked much better at the plate than now. I remember a lot of clutch 2 out hits. Not saying he was Albert Pujols or anything…but he looked much better than this year.
What is so crazy about baseball and stats, is that Texiera can still win the RBI crown in the National League. Just imagine if he had hit worth a damn when Chipper and Esco were on base in front of him all those times. So many stats that don’t tell the whole story.
Douglass,
Did you even read the Bradley column? What you wrote in your post is misleading.
His column mostly quoted Cox & Chipper and allowed them to play Pollyanna. Whatever. He made no bold statements or predictions. Using the word “maybe” doesn’t mean “this is definitely going to happen.”
His point is: With all the injuries, etc., the Braves are still in this thing. Technically, he’s correct, although we all know it has less to do with the Braves and more to do with our division rivals.
And he wrote this: “Here’s one thing the Braves do know: Better health must be followed by improved performance.”
Forgot to cite that, didn’t you?
Normally I wouldn’t care, but I write & edit for a living, so honesty compels me to put in my 2 cents.
Mark Bradley
on July 2, 2008 at 3:58 pm
I did read the column. Did you read what I wrote? I didn’t respond at all to this column. Most of my comments were still aimed at his 2-week old “Frenchy” column.
Despite that, even with the qualifications you cite, I’m still not buying it. A game that we got blown out at home for the 4th straight game by the Phillies is a positive turning point just because Kotsay and Chipper (both of whom looked well below 100% and any objective person would have to agree aren’t gonna be anytime soon) were forced to play because if we lose the series we’re pretty much out of it?
I don’t need to write and edit for a living to not buy that premise. That’s sunshine-pumping, homer journalism 101. Not buying it.
Didn’t forget to cite shit.
Douglass
on July 2, 2008 at 3:58 pm
whoops, forgot to switch back.
Douglass
on July 2, 2008 at 4:02 pm
The quote you claim I forgot to cite:
“Here’s one thing the Braves do know: Better health must be followed by improved performance.”
If that’s the case, then wouldn’t the turning point be when we actually started to have improved performance?
If performance is what’s important, why is a game we got blown out at home by a team that owns us cited as a turning point?
And citing Chipper and Kotsay’s return from the DL as being the reason for that? If anything I feel less confident that they’re ready for a stretch run after watching yesterday’s game.
Douglass,
You’re right. You don’t need to write or edit for a living.
Douglass
on July 2, 2008 at 4:11 pm
Get over yourself.
Douglass
on July 2, 2008 at 4:15 pm
Also, feel free to respond to any points I made. I won’t hold my breath though, I understand a big wig like you is probably far too busy for that…
…you’ve probably got more important things to do, like expounding at length about the pleasant aroma of your own shit.
Stu
on July 2, 2008 at 4:33 pm
Yikes, this thread took a sharp turn! Speaking (typing) as one with experience taking threads down sharp turns: Chillax, ladies.
Adam M
on July 2, 2008 at 4:44 pm
I think the conversation should turn back to Francoeur. That’s safe territory for all of us. That and Latin.
csg
on July 2, 2008 at 4:44 pm
here is something to look at
.274 team avg (5th in mlb)
.274 with bases loaded (really surprised here)
.255 w/ runners in scoring position
.265 w/ runners on
.248 close and late
.227 w/ scoring position and 2 outs
tonight lineup
Blanco
Escobar
Jones
Tex
Mac
KJ
Frenchy
Kotsay
braves14
on July 2, 2008 at 4:47 pm
I keep hoping to see one day that Francoeur’s been demoted.
Psh, like that will happen.
barrycuda
on July 2, 2008 at 4:55 pm
the shortcommings of Mr. Frenchy are an old and tired subject. i’d rather see more insults flying around. nothing beats a good cyber-fight.
Parish
on July 2, 2008 at 4:55 pm
How can you not feel better about having everybody back?
I am concerned about Chipper, though.
Stu
on July 2, 2008 at 4:56 pm
nothing beats a good cyber-fight.
Seems kinda weaselly, though, doesn’t it?
Adam M
on July 2, 2008 at 5:00 pm
“the shortcommings of Mr. Frenchy are an old and tired subject.”
Such shortcomings won’t be old or tired until he either is demoted or, far less likely, improves drastically. Until one of those two things occurs, “Mr. Frenchy” will continue to be among the freshest of topics for a struggling Braves team.
braves14
on July 2, 2008 at 5:04 pm
{15 YEAR OLD GIRL]
Frenchy’s soo cute and dreamy! Without him, who knows where the Braves would be!?!?!
[/15 YEAR OLD GIRL]
barrycuda
on July 2, 2008 at 5:04 pm
i guess you might as well bash away Adam because neither of those two things is likely to happen. its still an old, tired subject. wanna argue about it?
Tony
on July 2, 2008 at 5:06 pm
The Braves lineup on paper is playoff ready….
On paper that is…
braves14
on July 2, 2008 at 5:13 pm
[EDIT]
Blanco
Escobar
Chipper
Teixiera
McCann
Johnson
OUT(S)
Kotsay
Campillo
[/EDIT]
Robert
on July 2, 2008 at 5:20 pm
Need to swap Campillo with the out machine in that lineup.
Dan
on July 2, 2008 at 5:23 pm
Why Francoeur over Kotsay?
braves14
on July 2, 2008 at 5:23 pm
Because of the lefty/righty matchups!!!11111
Douglass
on July 2, 2008 at 5:26 pm
Nice. Escobar back in the lineup.
I read on my fantasy page earlier that that was a possibility, but had kinda forgotten about it until just now.
Stu
on July 2, 2008 at 5:44 pm
I think my fantasy web page would be all about Braves players healing, too.
Douglass
on July 2, 2008 at 5:52 pm
My team has actually fared quite well despite the fact that on draft night I ended up with Hudson (who has been mercilessly scrwed out of W’s all year), Smoltz, and Glavine. I was able to flip Hudson and change for Beckett recently, who I expect to be strong down the stretch. I had to drop Smoltz and Glavine (even before he got hurt), but was able to make up for it by snagging Ted Lilly and Kyle Lohse off of waivers one week…good timing as they’ve both been solid.. I also drafted Escobar and Jurrjens (last pick of the whole draft) in late rounds…those have turned out to be great picks.
The thing is I really didn’t make it a point to end up with so many Braves, it’s just once I got to the mid-late rounds, I felt like the rest of my league (no braves fans) were undervaluing Braves. I’m 3rd in the standings now, a game and half out of first, so I’d say it’s worked out pretty well.
For the record, as much as I rip on Frenchy, I still haven’t been able to release him from my roster, though he rarely starts. I flipped Cueto for him after his hot start when Granderson and Sheffield were on the DL…I needed OF help. Anyway, what a waste that’s been.
ugalaw
on July 2, 2008 at 5:53 pm
As an out-of-towner who has to watch the Braves on Extra Innings, I get the opposing team’s broadcast about 3/4 of the time. Honestly, it shocks me how overrated Terry Pendleton is as a batting coach in the minds of other broadcasters. They constantly rave about what a well-respected hitting coach, often right as Jeff Francoeur rolls a 2-0 slider on the outside corner for a 6-4-3 inning-ending double play.
He is roundly praised for allowing Chipper Jones to do his own hitting. They seem to miss the irony of the fact that the player who is far and away the team’s most discplined hitter takes little to no instruction from Pendleton.
oldtimer?
on July 2, 2008 at 6:07 pm
UGAlaw, I get Extra Innings too, can you get the HD feeds? It says HD next to the Braves game tonight, but it sure as heck is not in HD on SP4.
Also also, I think MLB Gameday is having problems with the new system. Either that, or Eaton throws a fastball, a slider, and a changeup all in the mid-eighties.
bamachum
on July 2, 2008 at 6:48 pm
Wow, what a terrible swing by Francoeur.
Dan
on July 2, 2008 at 6:49 pm
Oh dear Lord.
Pull the plug on Francoeur already.
Robert
on July 2, 2008 at 6:49 pm
Half hearted boo from the Turner crowd when Frenchy Ks. C’mon people, we can do better than that.
ugalaw
on July 2, 2008 at 6:50 pm
Let’s do an over/under on how many men Francoeur leaves on base tonight.
Robert
on July 2, 2008 at 6:51 pm
Am I the only one who thinks every time we fall behind 1-0, “Well, that’s a loss!”
With this team it’s natural to associate ‘1-run margin’ with ‘loss’.
ugalaw
on July 2, 2008 at 6:53 pm
Yeah, the new system is apparently still a work in progress. It’s really slow and will frequently skip an entire at-bat.
A.West
on July 2, 2008 at 6:53 pm
Memories of Andres Thomas swinging at balls in the dirt come back to me when looking at that replay of Frenchy flailing at that strikeout. Why did the pitcher wait till strike three to throw that pitch. Why not just all low and away till he proves that you have to throw a strike. Frenchy really sucks. Batting stance has nothing to do with swinging at horrible pitches. He wishes it was his stance.
ricflair
on July 2, 2008 at 7:00 pm
Ububba have you ever been to AT&T Park? I am going August 6th. I think it is almost as nice Turner Field.
I think McCann is pressing knowing his buddy is struggling behind him. He hasn’t seemed as patient lately in big spots, and has looked more comfortable without men on.
Parish
on July 2, 2008 at 7:29 pm
You may have just described everyone in our lineup.
braves14
on July 2, 2008 at 7:33 pm
Well, at least if the team keeps losing we’ll become sellers and get something for Teixiera.
bruleâ„¢
on July 2, 2008 at 7:34 pm
the best way to advance playoff?
At least must win against same divisison teams no matter how hard the team struggle. If not, No solution. 3 or 4 games back? No hopes, there!
Hanan
on July 2, 2008 at 7:35 pm
Not really…the same guys who usually have good AB’s are still having them. KJ, Chipper and usually McCann are still having good AB’s, but McCann looks like he is really trying hard to make it happen in this series. He had some good AB’s against Burnett on Sunday but didn’t come through.
The problem is you only have a few guys in the lineup capable of getting good counts and hitting hitter’s pitches. When you lack pop in your lineup, the inability to put together base hits and walks becomes magnified.
ugalaw
on July 2, 2008 at 7:35 pm
Whoever is responsible for updating the MLB Gamecast for the Braves has a pretty easy job when it comes to Francoeur. It appears to consist of just copying and pasting “Jeff Francoeur strikes out swinging.”
So, you essentially need two statements for Francoeur on Gamecast:
“Jeff Francoeur strikes out swinging.”
“Jeff Francouer grounds into double play. Jimmy Rollins to Chase Utley. Brian McCann out at second. Chase Utley to Ryan Howard. Jeff Francoeur out at first. Jeff Francoeur sets single season record for runners left on base, tips hat to crowd, and, at Bobby Cox’s encouragement, goes out for a curtain call.”
So now Gotay hits a homer. Where was that when he was playing everyday?
ugalaw
on July 2, 2008 at 7:43 pm
So now we’re depending on Reuben Gotay for offense? That’s when you know you’ve hit rock bottom. I’ll take it.
ugalaw
on July 2, 2008 at 7:45 pm
Perhaps the only positive to come out of the last week is that Blanco has pretty much locked down the leadoff spot. He’s really done a nice job.
Stu
on July 2, 2008 at 7:46 pm
Commercial: “Is there anything better? Braves baseball…”
LOL!
Dan
on July 2, 2008 at 7:50 pm
“It’s the magic in every game. It’s the look on a kid’s face when the poster on his wall goes 0-5 with two strikeouts and an inning-ending, rally-killing double play.”
Stu
on July 2, 2008 at 7:51 pm
I wish our starting right fielder were as good as the Phillies’ backup catcher.
Stu
on July 2, 2008 at 8:03 pm
The only question here is whether Jeff will hit into a double or triple play.
oldtimer?
on July 2, 2008 at 8:03 pm
please get hit, pleeeaaaasssse.
bruleâ„¢
on July 2, 2008 at 8:04 pm
The bases loaded and No Out, here Francoeour. Lets see!
Dan
on July 2, 2008 at 8:04 pm
Double play or strikeout here is my guess.
Douglass
on July 2, 2008 at 8:04 pm
Just got back from eating dinner with my mom on her birthday.
Can’t say I’m disappointed that I missed much of this one…
…the Phillies own us this year apparently.
Andrew B
on July 2, 2008 at 8:05 pm
double play, one run, no rbi, is the guaranteed result, right?
Mr. Swings@Everything
on July 2, 2008 at 8:06 pm
Do you know how hard it is to hit worse with the bases loaded? The pitchers have to throw strikes and some of the outs you make don’t count against you.
ugalaw
on July 2, 2008 at 8:06 pm
6-4-3 is my guess. Swinging on the first pitch.
Mr. Swings@Everything
on July 2, 2008 at 8:06 pm
It’s called regressing to the mean Pete.
Mr. Swings@Everything
on July 2, 2008 at 8:07 pm
redacted
Dan
on July 2, 2008 at 8:08 pm
BOO!
Andrew B
on July 2, 2008 at 8:08 pm
and i would be correct.
Hanan
on July 2, 2008 at 8:08 pm
There’s the DP…and what sounded like a few more boos.
BTW…he fouled several pitches a good hitter would crush.
Mr. Swings@Everything
on July 2, 2008 at 8:10 pm
Skip and Pete want to send Francoeur to Richmond. Buy those men some sammiches.
Seat Painter
on July 2, 2008 at 8:10 pm
I wish I could buy stock in something like ‘Frenchy Will Ground Into a Soul-Sucking DP., Inc.’
oldtimer?
on July 2, 2008 at 8:10 pm
you have got to be f#$%&^# kidding me.
Shoot him and turn him into glue.
braves14
on July 2, 2008 at 8:10 pm
Don’t worry. Tomorrow, he’ll be batting 3rd.
Stu
on July 2, 2008 at 8:11 pm
Not a strike…but what does it matter, really?
ugalaw
on July 2, 2008 at 8:11 pm
According to Gamecast, Durbin left several pitches up in the zone. As always, great work Francouer.
Chief Nocahoma
on July 2, 2008 at 8:11 pm
Where is ryanc lately to tell us how great this team is?
Mac I know you VEHEMENTLY disagree, but this team HAS to be blown up and completely reassembled from the smoking ashes remaining.
This team is ATROCIOUSLY bad.
Hanan
on July 2, 2008 at 8:13 pm
But he had to swing at junk because he worked himself into an 0-2 count by fouling a hanging slider and swinging through a belt high fastball. I don’t know why anyone expects this guy to hit when he can’t even hit the mistakes he sees.
bruleâ„¢
on July 2, 2008 at 8:14 pm
Wht a smart, Chad Durbin. 🙁
Bingo! double play. Don’t be surprise.
ricflair
on July 2, 2008 at 8:20 pm
Chief Nocahoma for President!!
A.West
on July 2, 2008 at 8:20 pm
I say Frenchy should bat 10th in the order. In Richmond. And Mark Bradley should be sent to Richmond to cover his excellent performance in AAA.
Chief Nocahoma
on July 2, 2008 at 8:21 pm
To be the man you have to beat the man, ricflair.
Are you being sarcastic or are you agreeing with my disgust?
braves14
on July 2, 2008 at 8:22 pm
Francoeur should try Tee-Ball.
ricflair
on July 2, 2008 at 8:26 pm
Chief,
I agree with you to a point. Is there anyone you would keep?
Francoeur is like, worse than bad. He’s anti-good.
Dan
on July 2, 2008 at 8:31 pm
Francoeur should try Tee-Ball.
I’m not so sure Francoeur would even then be successful:
Stephen
on July 2, 2008 at 8:38 pm
Just joining the game….why am I not surprised…everybody else has given the Phillies-=now Atlanta is in danger of becoming their home awasy from home….
Stephen
on July 2, 2008 at 8:39 pm
Chipper!
Douglass
on July 2, 2008 at 8:40 pm
Even if we fall out of the race, watching Chipper rake never gets old. Dude is a god.
COME ON BRAVES!
braves14
on July 2, 2008 at 8:41 pm
Peanut just said that Francoeur hasn’t been sent down because the Braves are basically afraid of losing revenue.
Adam M
on July 2, 2008 at 8:51 pm
A summary of Pete, on the radio: “It seems like every time Francoeur comes up, runners are on base. Why is that?”
Well Pete, that’s because the guys who hit in the middle of the order are good hitters. Good hitters get on base more than do bad hitters. Francoeur is a bad hitter, and thus we often remember his at bats.
Here’s the thing: to say ‘it seems like tough situations always find the guy struggling’ is myopic. We notice Francoeur’s at bats BECAUSE he keeps messing up. The guys who take care of business at a normal rate are not memorable, but it doesn’t mean they aren’t coming up in high-leverage situations.
Chief Nocahoma
on July 2, 2008 at 8:51 pm
ricflair,
I would think Jurrjens, Escobar and McCann and Chipper are untouchable, but frankly everyone else including Tex, Hudson I would take a bucket of balls and a mess of fish for, right now.
If we aren’t major sellers at the deadline, I may not watch another game this year out of frustration with this front office.
Hell if I lived in the ATL, I would be more inclined to come to a game sans Frenchy than with him right now.
Oceanside Mike
on July 2, 2008 at 8:52 pm
Why did the Phils change pitchers? I could go out there and throw it 70mph, two feet off the plate for the strikeout. Seems like a waste.
At this rate, he’ll be crapping his pants in the batters’ box by the end of the week.
Stephen
on July 2, 2008 at 8:57 pm
Of course when Joe goes on about Frenchy needing a game off–I become less sympathetic…
bruleâ„¢
on July 2, 2008 at 8:59 pm
It seems like every time Francoeur comes up, runners are on base. Why is that?”
Exactly, according to statistical data this sesason.
ricflair
on July 2, 2008 at 9:02 pm
Why not use Mike Gonzalez here? The bullpen is wore out and Ring can’t pitch to righties.
Dan
on July 2, 2008 at 9:02 pm
Wow, this feels just like last ninth. Game goes completely out-of-reach in the top of the ninth. It’s just like the previous Phillies-Braves series.
Untouchables: Chipper, McCann, Escobar, Kelly Johnson, Jair Jurrjens and Tim Hudson.
Yes Hudson. The Brave s have him for two more years. No reason to trade him. Everyone else I’d be willing to trade for the right price.
Oceanside Mike
on July 2, 2008 at 9:02 pm
If he does actually crap his pants, we’d probably be forced to replace him in the batter’s box. Here’s for pants crapping!
Stephen
on July 2, 2008 at 9:04 pm
Chase Utley continues to feast in Atlanta….
dragonr1835
on July 2, 2008 at 9:05 pm
You know, if JF does not ground into that double play with the bases loaded, we could have a prayer in the ninth. What is wrong with him? I do not remember watching an AB without him down 0-2.
Stop sucking.
Oh, wait, have to edit that as I was behind in the update for the 9th. Though Jeff still needs to stop sucking.
braves14
on July 2, 2008 at 9:05 pm
I’d add Jo Reyes and Charlie Morton to that list.
HawkeyeFan
on July 2, 2008 at 9:06 pm
I know the Phillies have a better lineup than we do, but the Bravos have the better pitching, right? I guess when your lineup makes itself look like the Rome Braves instead of the Atlanta Braves (at home! no less), that should be telling you something……
The only difference between us and the Mariners is that we have Chipper and they have Ichiro. I know that if you’re going to nitpick about this, there are more differences than just that, but when you get down to the brass tacks, we’re another case of a team that thought they were contenders and aren’t. We just haven’t admitted it as early in the season as the Mariners did.
Can anyone spin some good Zane Smith stories, just to put the present situation in perspective?
'Rissa
on July 2, 2008 at 9:10 pm
Here’s Peanut’s own words on Frenchy:
One primary reason that the Braves haven’t shipped Francoeur back to the Minors is the potential backlash they might receive from their fans, who have remained faithful to No. 7, despite the fact that he entered Wednesday night’s game against the Phillies hitting just .239 with a .294 on-base percentage and .383 slugging percentage.
Um, are Braves fans as a collective whole really that dumb?
Stephen
on July 2, 2008 at 9:11 pm
We have only 6 hits…this is truly pathetic….
Yeah, I would not want to trade Morton or Jo Jo….
Marc
on July 2, 2008 at 9:11 pm
Wow, the Phillies don’t rest on a lead and actually build on it for insurance, I wonder what that feels like?
Chief Nocahoma
on July 2, 2008 at 9:11 pm
I wouldn’t have Kelly Johnson as untouchable. He’s a slightly above average MLB player, but not untouchable and could be replaced, fairly easily.
I think Hudson has peaked and his value is lessening. Charlie Morton has shown nothing towards being untouchable and Reyes is a half season removed from being atrocious.
All this my opinion, of course.
Francois du Francoeur
on July 2, 2008 at 9:11 pm
I’m aggressive. Get it? Huh, huh!
Dan
on July 2, 2008 at 9:12 pm
Reyes, yes.
Soon-to-be-25 years old Charlie Morton and his 6.16 ERA with the Atlanta Braves this season and his career 4.53 minor league ERA in seven seasons? No.
'Rissa
on July 2, 2008 at 9:17 pm
For Morton’s next start Mac should post the “Charlie Bit Me” You Tube video on the game thread. It’s not a song, but it is hilarious.
Dan
on July 2, 2008 at 9:18 pm
Kelly Johnson is 26 years old and has a .810 OPS this season.
Yunel Escobar is 25 years old and has a .805 OPS this season.
How can one be untouchable and not the other?
Chief Nocahoma
on July 2, 2008 at 9:18 pm
This is no flame, but do any of you guys watch baseball besides the Braves? Do you know what a great player looks like and plays like? We don’t have many guys like that, at all.
Why are so many of you all attached to some of these guys that are just MLB average or worse players? The Twins have 4 young SP that you’ve never heard of that have pitched better than Hudson has. Wouldn’t you like a chance to get someone like that, on the come, instead of keeping a 32-33 year old with little to less than 0 upside.
I mean Tim hit me in the back once in All-Stars and all but I would trade him in a heartbeat if I could get 2 ML level starting players.
'Rissa
on July 2, 2008 at 9:18 pm
Chipper should hit a home run here to make our one-run record even worse.
Chief Nocahoma
on July 2, 2008 at 9:21 pm
Escobar plays a premium position, SS and IMO is just an all around better player. KJ has more power but just isn’t the player Yunel can be. His defense is MUCH better at his position than KJ’s.
If you really think that second basemen who hit like Kelly Johnson are easy to come by, you’re the one who needs to watch more baseball.
Marc
on July 2, 2008 at 9:25 pm
Oh well, worth a shot.
braves14
on July 2, 2008 at 9:25 pm
Tim Hudson: 124 ERA+
No Minnesota starter has an ERA better than 112+
Stephen
on July 2, 2008 at 9:26 pm
At least Tex was a tough out….the Braves could not even score a run with two errors….
braves14
on July 2, 2008 at 9:27 pm
The entire Minnesota staff has an ERA+ of 91.
I take our staff of 109+, thanks.
'Rissa
on July 2, 2008 at 9:27 pm
I was hoping we’d score there, simply so Ryan Howard would look twice as dumb as KJ looked. Two errors in the ninth—bad.
Chief Nocahoma
on July 2, 2008 at 9:27 pm
Yes he’s a statistical outlier, but you mean 2nd basemen like Chase Utley or like Jeff Kent did, or Roberto Alomar did?
He’s a slightly(maybe) above average ML 2nd baseman who only stands out so much because he’s surrounded by little leaguers like Greg Norton, Blanco, Lillibridge, Corky Miller et al. around him at the plate .
Dan
on July 2, 2008 at 9:28 pm
That’s another big difference between the Braves and Phillies. Braves get two extra outs, and baserunners, and don’t score anything.
Does anyone think if the Braves made two errors in an inning that allowed two Phillies’ players to reach, that the Phillies would not score anything?
Douglass
on July 2, 2008 at 9:28 pm
Im sure Mark Bradley will have a column up soon about how Tex’s foul ball homerun on the first pitch of his last at bat was the turning point of the game even though it was foul and even though Braves lost.
Bob Walk
on July 2, 2008 at 9:30 pm
If number 7’s name was Pablo Dominguez from anywhere, Puerto Rico his @#$ would be back in Rome learning how to swing a bat…whats up with Sciambi’s hair, the Human Torch?
Chief,
You clearly don’t know what you’re talking about. There’s a good bit of area between HOF-caliber (Utley, Kent and Alomar) and “average major league 2B.” KJ is quite obviously well above average at his position.
And the Hudson/Twins comparison is a complete joke.
Chief Nocahoma
on July 2, 2008 at 9:36 pm
You mean a rotation with ‘prospects’ like 30 year oldJorge Campillo, a 42 year old multiple arm and shoulder injured John Smoltz, a 33 year old Tim Hudson, and Charlie Morton with a 4.53 lifetime MiLB ERA or sprinkle in a random Buddy Carlyle or Chuck James start or 5, but don’t forget a few starts by up and comer Jeff Bennett. You guys are funny.
Yeah I’d say that’s quite a rotation to “take” for the long haul.
Matt Garza, nee of the Twins has been pretty ‘decent’ for the Rays…
Robert
on July 2, 2008 at 9:36 pm
So this:
Do you know what a great player looks like and plays like?
and this:
The Twins have 4 young SP that you’ve never heard of that have pitched better than Hudson has
in the same post? Awesome.
The Twins of course don’t have a single pitcher period that has been as good as Tim. Hudson’s been one of the 15 best starters in the NL.
oldtimer?
on July 2, 2008 at 9:37 pm
Damn, we are frustrated bunch of fans right now. I have never seen and outfield less productive than this bunch in my life.
How do we fix it, I have no idea.
“The Twins have 4 young SP that you’ve never heard of that have pitched better than Hudson has. ”
That sentence, which is unbelievably wrong, is what I was referring to.
I see no reason to trade a guy who is a legitimate #2 pitcher with 2 more years on his contract. If you watch baseball, you know that these don’t grow on trees.
Chief Nocahoma
on July 2, 2008 at 9:45 pm
Simple. What is the Twins record and what is the Braves W/L record and given that, is a major part of the game starting pitching?
This board is so obsessed with stats and the minutia(sic) that it doesn’t allow you all to “see” anything with your eyes anymore. I ‘see’ dozens of pitchers and position players that I’d rather have than what we have right now. Dozens.
Chief Nocahoma
on July 2, 2008 at 9:48 pm
braves14,
because everything isn’t about the now, this season, this month. This team and franchise, is going nowhere fast. There is no reason to hold onto players like Hudson if you can get 2-3 younger players with upside.
I’m telling you guys our only way back is to start over because this franchise is BROKEN.
Use code “Journal” for a 5% discount.
Has Frenchy commented on his new facial hair? Is this his version of a shaved head to try and break himself out of a funk of bad luck?
Fancor suks.
1 for 15 with RISP.
Ladies and gentlemen, please welcome The Atlanta Choking Bastards.
I, too, hate this team.
Is it just the Mets and Braves who have fans that grouse about the team not having: consistent hitting (or it’s related “XXXX is killing us”) /the heart to win? It’s amazing how similar the complaints are over on Metsblog. I suspect this discussion is had on almost all non-first place team fan sites… but I’m not sure (also not sure I could stomach the research required to know).
From the last thread, re: Frenchy…
I think him trying to hit for power has screwed him up. Along with him not being that smart of a hitter to being with, then you have what we see now.
He did hit a legit .293 last year. Should have just built from that.
It wasn’t that legit. His BABIP was .337 on an LD% of 19.4%, so he sort of got lucky all season. This year, his BABIP is .268 on an LD% of 21.2%, so technically he’s getting unlucky even though he’s looked like crap pretty much all year.
AAR –
BABIP = LD% +120?
Any stat heads….
I am thinking there has to be a correlation between the outcome of the Braves games and whether they are tending to work the count or not. Last night after two batters were walked on 9 pitches, McCann swings at the first pitch and grounds out weakly. This really reinforced this thread of thought I have had. My first thought was to look at pitch count vs. score of the game. So I did that for the last 20 games and it looks like there is some relationship. But it makes sense in a blowout that the team scoring all the runs will see more pitches because they keep scoring runs and thus have more at bats. Does anyone have any thoughts on a better way to approach this? Some way to weight the pitch count… maybe something like pitch count over number of PAs? I am convinced the games where we seem, as a team, to be working the count and not hacking at the first pitch usually are closer or have a good outcome.
Anyone else see the latest from our friend Mark Bradley: http://tinyurl.com/4b3jr2
Apparently, even though we lost (our 6th out of 7th against the Phils), it was a turning point and we’re gonna win the division…
This guy blows my mind more and more with each article.
For the record, Francoeur’s last RBI was on June 19th, the day Bradley wrote his “What’s with the venom against Frenchy” column. In the two weeks since that column, Frenchy hasn’t picked up a single f’ing RBI. If he hadn’t sucked this bad his entire career, I would wonder if he was doing it just to spite Bradley personally.
Anyway, Mark Bradley, LOL.
But seriously, what’s with all the venom against Frenchy? I don’t get it.
Parish, the rule of thumb is supposed to be that BABIP ought to be around LD% + 120 points. Frenchy’s BABIP was a lot higher than LD% + 120 last year, so he was getting lucky and having more hits fall in than you’d think ought to.
This year, his BABIP should be more like .330, but it’s below .270.
I’m still finding it hard to believe his LD% is 21% — he never seems to hit the ball that hard.
Never Mind. Misunderstood the question – love the edit feature
You just have to look back the the 4 games series against the Mets to see what we can do when we work the count.
We had Maine and Pelfrey gone in around 4 innings and then went to work on the pen.
Wait his last RBI was on 06/19….
AAR,
The games I did see last year, Francouer looked much better at the plate than now. I remember a lot of clutch 2 out hits. Not saying he was Albert Pujols or anything…but he looked much better than this year.
What is so crazy about baseball and stats, is that Texiera can still win the RBI crown in the National League. Just imagine if he had hit worth a damn when Chipper and Esco were on base in front of him all those times. So many stats that don’t tell the whole story.
Douglass,
Did you even read the Bradley column? What you wrote in your post is misleading.
His column mostly quoted Cox & Chipper and allowed them to play Pollyanna. Whatever. He made no bold statements or predictions. Using the word “maybe” doesn’t mean “this is definitely going to happen.”
His point is: With all the injuries, etc., the Braves are still in this thing. Technically, he’s correct, although we all know it has less to do with the Braves and more to do with our division rivals.
And he wrote this: “Here’s one thing the Braves do know: Better health must be followed by improved performance.”
Forgot to cite that, didn’t you?
Normally I wouldn’t care, but I write & edit for a living, so honesty compels me to put in my 2 cents.
I did read the column. Did you read what I wrote? I didn’t respond at all to this column. Most of my comments were still aimed at his 2-week old “Frenchy” column.
Despite that, even with the qualifications you cite, I’m still not buying it. A game that we got blown out at home for the 4th straight game by the Phillies is a positive turning point just because Kotsay and Chipper (both of whom looked well below 100% and any objective person would have to agree aren’t gonna be anytime soon) were forced to play because if we lose the series we’re pretty much out of it?
I don’t need to write and edit for a living to not buy that premise. That’s sunshine-pumping, homer journalism 101. Not buying it.
Didn’t forget to cite shit.
whoops, forgot to switch back.
The quote you claim I forgot to cite:
“Here’s one thing the Braves do know: Better health must be followed by improved performance.”
If that’s the case, then wouldn’t the turning point be when we actually started to have improved performance?
If performance is what’s important, why is a game we got blown out at home by a team that owns us cited as a turning point?
And citing Chipper and Kotsay’s return from the DL as being the reason for that? If anything I feel less confident that they’re ready for a stretch run after watching yesterday’s game.
Douglass,
You’re right. You don’t need to write or edit for a living.
Get over yourself.
Also, feel free to respond to any points I made. I won’t hold my breath though, I understand a big wig like you is probably far too busy for that…
…you’ve probably got more important things to do, like expounding at length about the pleasant aroma of your own shit.
Yikes, this thread took a sharp turn! Speaking (typing) as one with experience taking threads down sharp turns: Chillax, ladies.
I think the conversation should turn back to Francoeur. That’s safe territory for all of us. That and Latin.
here is something to look at
.274 team avg (5th in mlb)
.274 with bases loaded (really surprised here)
.255 w/ runners in scoring position
.265 w/ runners on
.248 close and late
.227 w/ scoring position and 2 outs
tonight lineup
Blanco
Escobar
Jones
Tex
Mac
KJ
Frenchy
Kotsay
I keep hoping to see one day that Francoeur’s been demoted.
Psh, like that will happen.
the shortcommings of Mr. Frenchy are an old and tired subject. i’d rather see more insults flying around. nothing beats a good cyber-fight.
How can you not feel better about having everybody back?
I am concerned about Chipper, though.
nothing beats a good cyber-fight.
Seems kinda weaselly, though, doesn’t it?
“the shortcommings of Mr. Frenchy are an old and tired subject.”
Such shortcomings won’t be old or tired until he either is demoted or, far less likely, improves drastically. Until one of those two things occurs, “Mr. Frenchy” will continue to be among the freshest of topics for a struggling Braves team.
{15 YEAR OLD GIRL]
Frenchy’s soo cute and dreamy! Without him, who knows where the Braves would be!?!?!
[/15 YEAR OLD GIRL]
i guess you might as well bash away Adam because neither of those two things is likely to happen. its still an old, tired subject. wanna argue about it?
The Braves lineup on paper is playoff ready….
On paper that is…
[EDIT]
Blanco
Escobar
Chipper
Teixiera
McCann
Johnson
OUT(S)
Kotsay
Campillo
[/EDIT]
Need to swap Campillo with the out machine in that lineup.
Why Francoeur over Kotsay?
Because of the lefty/righty matchups!!!11111
Nice. Escobar back in the lineup.
I read on my fantasy page earlier that that was a possibility, but had kinda forgotten about it until just now.
I think my fantasy web page would be all about Braves players healing, too.
My team has actually fared quite well despite the fact that on draft night I ended up with Hudson (who has been mercilessly scrwed out of W’s all year), Smoltz, and Glavine. I was able to flip Hudson and change for Beckett recently, who I expect to be strong down the stretch. I had to drop Smoltz and Glavine (even before he got hurt), but was able to make up for it by snagging Ted Lilly and Kyle Lohse off of waivers one week…good timing as they’ve both been solid.. I also drafted Escobar and Jurrjens (last pick of the whole draft) in late rounds…those have turned out to be great picks.
The thing is I really didn’t make it a point to end up with so many Braves, it’s just once I got to the mid-late rounds, I felt like the rest of my league (no braves fans) were undervaluing Braves. I’m 3rd in the standings now, a game and half out of first, so I’d say it’s worked out pretty well.
For the record, as much as I rip on Frenchy, I still haven’t been able to release him from my roster, though he rarely starts. I flipped Cueto for him after his hot start when Granderson and Sheffield were on the DL…I needed OF help. Anyway, what a waste that’s been.
As an out-of-towner who has to watch the Braves on Extra Innings, I get the opposing team’s broadcast about 3/4 of the time. Honestly, it shocks me how overrated Terry Pendleton is as a batting coach in the minds of other broadcasters. They constantly rave about what a well-respected hitting coach, often right as Jeff Francoeur rolls a 2-0 slider on the outside corner for a 6-4-3 inning-ending double play.
He is roundly praised for allowing Chipper Jones to do his own hitting. They seem to miss the irony of the fact that the player who is far and away the team’s most discplined hitter takes little to no instruction from Pendleton.
UGAlaw, I get Extra Innings too, can you get the HD feeds? It says HD next to the Braves game tonight, but it sure as heck is not in HD on SP4.
Off of Uni Watch… Messersmith’s “Channel” uniform.
No, I never get HD feeds on Extra Innings, and there are some really terrible broadcasts out there.
Am I the only one who thinks every time we fall behind 1-0, “Well, that’s a loss!”
Also, the Out Machine needs to bunt here.
No, you’re not the only one. Typically if we haven’t build a nice lead by the end of the third inning I’m ready to throw in the towel.
Also also, I think MLB Gameday is having problems with the new system. Either that, or Eaton throws a fastball, a slider, and a changeup all in the mid-eighties.
Wow, what a terrible swing by Francoeur.
Oh dear Lord.
Pull the plug on Francoeur already.
Half hearted boo from the Turner crowd when Frenchy Ks. C’mon people, we can do better than that.
Let’s do an over/under on how many men Francoeur leaves on base tonight.
Am I the only one who thinks every time we fall behind 1-0, “Well, that’s a loss!”
With this team it’s natural to associate ‘1-run margin’ with ‘loss’.
Yeah, the new system is apparently still a work in progress. It’s really slow and will frequently skip an entire at-bat.
Memories of Andres Thomas swinging at balls in the dirt come back to me when looking at that replay of Frenchy flailing at that strikeout. Why did the pitcher wait till strike three to throw that pitch. Why not just all low and away till he proves that you have to throw a strike. Frenchy really sucks. Batting stance has nothing to do with swinging at horrible pitches. He wishes it was his stance.
Ububba have you ever been to AT&T Park? I am going August 6th. I think it is almost as nice Turner Field.
By the way I hate this team.
Did anyone not expect a homer?
As big a problem as anything with this team is how many baserunners McCann has left stranded the last week.
The Phillies are really the antithesis of the Braves when batting with runners in scoring position.
It has been ages since we’ve gotten the big hit. This is miserable.
And now it’s Victorino’s turn to kill us.
My guess is A-Rod and Baz Larkin.
I think McCann is pressing knowing his buddy is struggling behind him. He hasn’t seemed as patient lately in big spots, and has looked more comfortable without men on.
You may have just described everyone in our lineup.
Well, at least if the team keeps losing we’ll become sellers and get something for Teixiera.
the best way to advance playoff?
At least must win against same divisison teams no matter how hard the team struggle. If not, No solution. 3 or 4 games back? No hopes, there!
Not really…the same guys who usually have good AB’s are still having them. KJ, Chipper and usually McCann are still having good AB’s, but McCann looks like he is really trying hard to make it happen in this series. He had some good AB’s against Burnett on Sunday but didn’t come through.
The problem is you only have a few guys in the lineup capable of getting good counts and hitting hitter’s pitches. When you lack pop in your lineup, the inability to put together base hits and walks becomes magnified.
Whoever is responsible for updating the MLB Gamecast for the Braves has a pretty easy job when it comes to Francoeur. It appears to consist of just copying and pasting “Jeff Francoeur strikes out swinging.”
Sometimes he grounds out.
Re: LD%
How do people judge what exactly is a line drive?
So, you essentially need two statements for Francoeur on Gamecast:
“Jeff Francoeur strikes out swinging.”
“Jeff Francouer grounds into double play. Jimmy Rollins to Chase Utley. Brian McCann out at second. Chase Utley to Ryan Howard. Jeff Francoeur out at first. Jeff Francoeur sets single season record for runners left on base, tips hat to crowd, and, at Bobby Cox’s encouragement, goes out for a curtain call.”
So now Gotay hits a homer. Where was that when he was playing everyday?
So now we’re depending on Reuben Gotay for offense? That’s when you know you’ve hit rock bottom. I’ll take it.
Perhaps the only positive to come out of the last week is that Blanco has pretty much locked down the leadoff spot. He’s really done a nice job.
Commercial: “Is there anything better? Braves baseball…”
LOL!
“It’s the magic in every game. It’s the look on a kid’s face when the poster on his wall goes 0-5 with two strikeouts and an inning-ending, rally-killing double play.”
I wish our starting right fielder were as good as the Phillies’ backup catcher.
The only question here is whether Jeff will hit into a double or triple play.
please get hit, pleeeaaaasssse.
The bases loaded and No Out, here Francoeour. Lets see!
Double play or strikeout here is my guess.
Just got back from eating dinner with my mom on her birthday.
Can’t say I’m disappointed that I missed much of this one…
…the Phillies own us this year apparently.
double play, one run, no rbi, is the guaranteed result, right?
Do you know how hard it is to hit worse with the bases loaded? The pitchers have to throw strikes and some of the outs you make don’t count against you.
6-4-3 is my guess. Swinging on the first pitch.
It’s called regressing to the mean Pete.
redacted
BOO!
and i would be correct.
There’s the DP…and what sounded like a few more boos.
BTW…he fouled several pitches a good hitter would crush.
Skip and Pete want to send Francoeur to Richmond. Buy those men some sammiches.
I wish I could buy stock in something like ‘Frenchy Will Ground Into a Soul-Sucking DP., Inc.’
you have got to be f#$%&^# kidding me.
Shoot him and turn him into glue.
Don’t worry. Tomorrow, he’ll be batting 3rd.
Not a strike…but what does it matter, really?
According to Gamecast, Durbin left several pitches up in the zone. As always, great work Francouer.
Where is ryanc lately to tell us how great this team is?
Mac I know you VEHEMENTLY disagree, but this team HAS to be blown up and completely reassembled from the smoking ashes remaining.
This team is ATROCIOUSLY bad.
But he had to swing at junk because he worked himself into an 0-2 count by fouling a hanging slider and swinging through a belt high fastball. I don’t know why anyone expects this guy to hit when he can’t even hit the mistakes he sees.
Wht a smart, Chad Durbin. 🙁
Bingo! double play. Don’t be surprise.
Chief Nocahoma for President!!
I say Frenchy should bat 10th in the order. In Richmond. And Mark Bradley should be sent to Richmond to cover his excellent performance in AAA.
To be the man you have to beat the man, ricflair.
Are you being sarcastic or are you agreeing with my disgust?
Francoeur should try Tee-Ball.
Chief,
I agree with you to a point. Is there anyone you would keep?
Francoeur is like, worse than bad. He’s anti-good.
Francoeur should try Tee-Ball.
I’m not so sure Francoeur would even then be successful:
Just joining the game….why am I not surprised…everybody else has given the Phillies-=now Atlanta is in danger of becoming their home awasy from home….
Chipper!
Even if we fall out of the race, watching Chipper rake never gets old. Dude is a god.
COME ON BRAVES!
Peanut just said that Francoeur hasn’t been sent down because the Braves are basically afraid of losing revenue.
A summary of Pete, on the radio: “It seems like every time Francoeur comes up, runners are on base. Why is that?”
Well Pete, that’s because the guys who hit in the middle of the order are good hitters. Good hitters get on base more than do bad hitters. Francoeur is a bad hitter, and thus we often remember his at bats.
Here’s the thing: to say ‘it seems like tough situations always find the guy struggling’ is myopic. We notice Francoeur’s at bats BECAUSE he keeps messing up. The guys who take care of business at a normal rate are not memorable, but it doesn’t mean they aren’t coming up in high-leverage situations.
ricflair,
I would think Jurrjens, Escobar and McCann and Chipper are untouchable, but frankly everyone else including Tex, Hudson I would take a bucket of balls and a mess of fish for, right now.
If we aren’t major sellers at the deadline, I may not watch another game this year out of frustration with this front office.
Hell if I lived in the ATL, I would be more inclined to come to a game sans Frenchy than with him right now.
Why did the Phils change pitchers? I could go out there and throw it 70mph, two feet off the plate for the strikeout. Seems like a waste.
See? Anti-good.
The Prince of Suckage…
Like I said.
I feel for Francoeur. He doesn’t want to be the least valuable regular player in the game, but that’s.exactly what he is right now.
Joe Simpson: “Jeff’s last two at bats are a good sign.”
It’s as if he gets worse with every game. ‘Each new game is the worst game of his life.’
I continue to feel sorry for Joe Simpson…
At this rate, he’ll be crapping his pants in the batters’ box by the end of the week.
Of course when Joe goes on about Frenchy needing a game off–I become less sympathetic…
It seems like every time Francoeur comes up, runners are on base. Why is that?”
Exactly, according to statistical data this sesason.
Why not use Mike Gonzalez here? The bullpen is wore out and Ring can’t pitch to righties.
Wow, this feels just like last ninth. Game goes completely out-of-reach in the top of the ninth. It’s just like the previous Phillies-Braves series.
Untouchables: Chipper, McCann, Escobar, Kelly Johnson, Jair Jurrjens and Tim Hudson.
Yes Hudson. The Brave s have him for two more years. No reason to trade him. Everyone else I’d be willing to trade for the right price.
If he does actually crap his pants, we’d probably be forced to replace him in the batter’s box. Here’s for pants crapping!
Chase Utley continues to feast in Atlanta….
You know, if JF does not ground into that double play with the bases loaded, we could have a prayer in the ninth. What is wrong with him? I do not remember watching an AB without him down 0-2.
Stop sucking.
Oh, wait, have to edit that as I was behind in the update for the 9th. Though Jeff still needs to stop sucking.
I’d add Jo Reyes and Charlie Morton to that list.
I know the Phillies have a better lineup than we do, but the Bravos have the better pitching, right? I guess when your lineup makes itself look like the Rome Braves instead of the Atlanta Braves (at home! no less), that should be telling you something……
The only difference between us and the Mariners is that we have Chipper and they have Ichiro. I know that if you’re going to nitpick about this, there are more differences than just that, but when you get down to the brass tacks, we’re another case of a team that thought they were contenders and aren’t. We just haven’t admitted it as early in the season as the Mariners did.
Can anyone spin some good Zane Smith stories, just to put the present situation in perspective?
Here’s Peanut’s own words on Frenchy:
One primary reason that the Braves haven’t shipped Francoeur back to the Minors is the potential backlash they might receive from their fans, who have remained faithful to No. 7, despite the fact that he entered Wednesday night’s game against the Phillies hitting just .239 with a .294 on-base percentage and .383 slugging percentage.
Um, are Braves fans as a collective whole really that dumb?
We have only 6 hits…this is truly pathetic….
Yeah, I would not want to trade Morton or Jo Jo….
Wow, the Phillies don’t rest on a lead and actually build on it for insurance, I wonder what that feels like?
I wouldn’t have Kelly Johnson as untouchable. He’s a slightly above average MLB player, but not untouchable and could be replaced, fairly easily.
I think Hudson has peaked and his value is lessening. Charlie Morton has shown nothing towards being untouchable and Reyes is a half season removed from being atrocious.
All this my opinion, of course.
I’m aggressive. Get it? Huh, huh!
Reyes, yes.
Soon-to-be-25 years old Charlie Morton and his 6.16 ERA with the Atlanta Braves this season and his career 4.53 minor league ERA in seven seasons? No.
For Morton’s next start Mac should post the “Charlie Bit Me” You Tube video on the game thread. It’s not a song, but it is hilarious.
Kelly Johnson is 26 years old and has a .810 OPS this season.
Yunel Escobar is 25 years old and has a .805 OPS this season.
How can one be untouchable and not the other?
This is no flame, but do any of you guys watch baseball besides the Braves? Do you know what a great player looks like and plays like? We don’t have many guys like that, at all.
Why are so many of you all attached to some of these guys that are just MLB average or worse players? The Twins have 4 young SP that you’ve never heard of that have pitched better than Hudson has. Wouldn’t you like a chance to get someone like that, on the come, instead of keeping a 32-33 year old with little to less than 0 upside.
I mean Tim hit me in the back once in All-Stars and all but I would trade him in a heartbeat if I could get 2 ML level starting players.
Chipper should hit a home run here to make our one-run record even worse.
Escobar plays a premium position, SS and IMO is just an all around better player. KJ has more power but just isn’t the player Yunel can be. His defense is MUCH better at his position than KJ’s.
Tex is going yard, book it.
If you really think that second basemen who hit like Kelly Johnson are easy to come by, you’re the one who needs to watch more baseball.
Oh well, worth a shot.
Tim Hudson: 124 ERA+
No Minnesota starter has an ERA better than 112+
At least Tex was a tough out….the Braves could not even score a run with two errors….
The entire Minnesota staff has an ERA+ of 91.
I take our staff of 109+, thanks.
I was hoping we’d score there, simply so Ryan Howard would look twice as dumb as KJ looked. Two errors in the ninth—bad.
Yes he’s a statistical outlier, but you mean 2nd basemen like Chase Utley or like Jeff Kent did, or Roberto Alomar did?
He’s a slightly(maybe) above average ML 2nd baseman who only stands out so much because he’s surrounded by little leaguers like Greg Norton, Blanco, Lillibridge, Corky Miller et al. around him at the plate .
That’s another big difference between the Braves and Phillies. Braves get two extra outs, and baserunners, and don’t score anything.
Does anyone think if the Braves made two errors in an inning that allowed two Phillies’ players to reach, that the Phillies would not score anything?
Im sure Mark Bradley will have a column up soon about how Tex’s foul ball homerun on the first pitch of his last at bat was the turning point of the game even though it was foul and even though Braves lost.
If number 7’s name was Pablo Dominguez from anywhere, Puerto Rico his @#$ would be back in Rome learning how to swing a bat…whats up with Sciambi’s hair, the Human Torch?
This must be some definition of “slightly” with which I am not familiar.
Chief,
You clearly don’t know what you’re talking about. There’s a good bit of area between HOF-caliber (Utley, Kent and Alomar) and “average major league 2B.” KJ is quite obviously well above average at his position.
And the Hudson/Twins comparison is a complete joke.
You mean a rotation with ‘prospects’ like 30 year oldJorge Campillo, a 42 year old multiple arm and shoulder injured John Smoltz, a 33 year old Tim Hudson, and Charlie Morton with a 4.53 lifetime MiLB ERA or sprinkle in a random Buddy Carlyle or Chuck James start or 5, but don’t forget a few starts by up and comer Jeff Bennett. You guys are funny.
Yeah I’d say that’s quite a rotation to “take” for the long haul.
Matt Garza, nee of the Twins has been pretty ‘decent’ for the Rays…
So this:
Do you know what a great player looks like and plays like?
and this:
The Twins have 4 young SP that you’ve never heard of that have pitched better than Hudson has
in the same post? Awesome.
The Twins of course don’t have a single pitcher period that has been as good as Tim. Hudson’s been one of the 15 best starters in the NL.
Damn, we are frustrated bunch of fans right now. I have never seen and outfield less productive than this bunch in my life.
How do we fix it, I have no idea.
Recap is up.
This is what you said:
“The Twins have 4 young SP that you’ve never heard of that have pitched better than Hudson has. ”
That sentence, which is unbelievably wrong, is what I was referring to.
I see no reason to trade a guy who is a legitimate #2 pitcher with 2 more years on his contract. If you watch baseball, you know that these don’t grow on trees.
Simple. What is the Twins record and what is the Braves W/L record and given that, is a major part of the game starting pitching?
This board is so obsessed with stats and the minutia(sic) that it doesn’t allow you all to “see” anything with your eyes anymore. I ‘see’ dozens of pitchers and position players that I’d rather have than what we have right now. Dozens.
braves14,
because everything isn’t about the now, this season, this month. This team and franchise, is going nowhere fast. There is no reason to hold onto players like Hudson if you can get 2-3 younger players with upside.
I’m telling you guys our only way back is to start over because this franchise is BROKEN.