Bottomless thread

Name this hitter:

160 career homers with the Braves.
155 career homers with everyone else.

In unrelated news, if you haven’t heard by now the Nationals have signed both Willie Harris and Pete Orr. Apparently, their plan is to: 1) run around a lot, and 2) suck.

142 thoughts on “Bottomless thread”

  1. ubbubba – I acknowledge FSU lost to UGA the last time they played. In fact, I was at the last game the two teams played againt each other before that, which I think was the ’85 or ’86 Citrus Bowl. I remember that it ended in a tie when Kevin Butler missed a ridiculously long field goal try from something like 71 yards by a matter of feet.

    The bowl loss and tie notwithstanding, I will gladly take everything that occurred between those two bowls. I’m not sure any other team or fan in the country could would take their own versus FSU’s accomplishments during this same time.

    By the way, by no means do I dislike the Dawgs, probably my favorite team in the SEC. I had a the pleasure of meeting Vince Dooley when I was eight – my neighbors were big boosters – and he signed a penant for me which I still have in my room at home. I am rooting like hell for them to beat UF next year, as they may be the only team in country that can do it on their schedule.

  2. On Harris and Orr. Great line. LOL. Shows the inequities in life. Orr will probably make 400,000 while Harris will double that. Sheesh.

  3. Though their both problematic players, they seem to be good guys who play hard. I’m glad they got picked up somewhere.

  4. In addition to being rid of Orr and Harris, I think we’re also spared Sal Fasano. I think he signed with the Jays a day or two ago (apologies if someone else has posted this–I haven’t read all of the comments on recent threads).

  5. CJ,

    Two things:
    1) Congratulations on your “national championships.” FSU had outstanding collections of talent that were on-par or better than most schools.

    But I’m the last person who’s impressed by such things (aka opportunities to win titles that are mostly determined by voters, computers & locked-in bowl pairings.)

    Div. 1 titles are like figure skating—“Hmmm, FSU beat Wake 62-3, so we’ll give them a 9.9 for that one & rank them ahead of Michigan, which only beat Wisconsin 17-14. And I hear that UCLA upset Arizona State, but I didn’t watch that game because it was past my bedtime, so we’ll only drop them two spots.” Patently ridiculous.

    (Quick! Let’s all take a moment to hail that great BYU title team from 1984! The Holiday Bowl champion defeated a 6-6 Michigan team & was rewarded with the “national championship!” Yippee.)

    Let’s get a playoff & have a real conversation. ACC people brag about their baseketball conference all the time, but when it comes time for the end-of-the-year tournament, they back it up with tons of Final Four appearances & legit titles. It’s my opinion that the SEC would do the same. But until it happens, it’s all talk & bogus “national championships.”

    2) Since Richt arrived in Athens, UGA’s record is certainly in the upper-tier of the league and the country. (71-19 overall, 42-17 in the SEC).

    I don’t do rankings, but you apparently do. So I’ll mention this: In the past 6 seasons (and I’m including this one), only 1 SEC school has finished in the BCS Top 10 5 times. Guess which one it is? Hint: It’s neither LSU nor Florida.

    2002: UGA #3
    2003: UGA #7
    2004: UGA #7
    2005: UGA #10
    2006: UGA #23
    2007: UGA #5 (Sugar Bowl not included)

  6. Rich Rodriguez leaves his country roads for Michigan. Wow.

    One game away from playing for the National Championship to the first bus out of town.. I don’t know about this move. Under normal circumstances, sure, but Coach Rod was a West Virginia man and had his own kingdom set up there (choke-of-the-century loss to Pitt aside).

    Plus, I wonder how much he’ll be paid at Michigan, if he’ll be able to bring his own assistants and how operating under Lloyd Carr’s supervision will work. Strange.

  7. Well, now that West Virginia has lost both their basketball and football coaches to Michigan there are only two courses of appropriate action:

    1) Mobilize the West Virginia National Guard to re-enact Red Dawn in the state of Michigan.

    2) Hire Appalachian State head football coach Jerry Moore, get Michigan on the schedule, and beat the Wolverines like a drum.

    #2 would be more damaging to the psyche of the Michiganders, I think.

  8. ububba-

    Question for you: Would you take all of your BCS Top Tens (for whatever that’s worth) or Florida or LSU’s national championship in that time frame?

  9. Tiger,

    Perhaps I didn’t express myself well enough before.

    1) Rankings mean very little to me. They can be an indication that a team is doing well, but they are by no means definitive. I only brought up those rankings to respond to CJ’s assertion that LSU & Florida have been better teams in recent years.

    2) The only championship I really care about is the SEC championship because it’s genuine. IMO, a “national champion” may certainly be the season’s best team, but we don’t really have a valid mechanism to prove it.

    (Eg. — I don’t know that the ’02 Ohio State team was better than the UGA squad, in the same way that I don’t know that the ’80 UGA squad was better than Pitt.)

    So, I’m sorry, I can’t really answer your question.

  10. ububba — thanks for hailing my alma mater’s national champisionship (ha!)! go cougs!

    I’ve been arguing with my old roommates about a recent statement by our football coach. He says that by taking Hawaii as an example, we should be scheduling more cupcakes because strength of schedule obviously doesn’t matter (he was actually kind of complaining about how they hadn’t played anybody but got to a BCS bowl, but he seemed serious about scheduling weaker schools).

    I absolutely disagree — we should be playing any and every good team that will play us because the entire MWC is a joke (except for a few teams).

    Problem is that we usually demand a home and home agreement and not many schools will agree to it (makes sense — playing a decent BYU team in Provo is a tough win and beating a mediocre BYU team at home isn’t very impressive). Many of the big schools want a 2 for 1. I personally think we should be considering those offers for now — you’ve got to beat good teams if you want any respect nationally.

    I don’t think Hawaii is a good example of how to set up your schedule to get to a money bowl. The stars aligned for teams with sub par schedules this year (Hawaii and Ohio State to an extent). I think you’ve got to earn it by beating the best teams (and beating teams from the east coast certainly doesn’t hurt).

    We lost to UCLA in what was a winnable game and then got beat by Tulsa (ugh) the next week in a total let down game. No doubt I’ve been going through a number of “what could have been” conversations in a year in which a 2 loss team is playing for the title. Next year BYU will have a decent team, and in two years it should be good too. But the schedule will only be so strong. We’ll see how it goes.

    And I guess that’s all I have to say about that.

  11. ububba — by the way — i know you were joking about the byu championship, but it gave me a chance to speak my piece. there you go.

  12. What’s up with this…

    Several FSU players will be announced ineligible for the bowl game plus the first 2 and half games of next year. This hasn’t been broke yet. FSU will play their bowl game without several starters on both sides of the ball. Like all told 20 some players will be suspended because of a cheating scandal. In other words, FSU will be crushed on their bowl game and next year they will open up starting several true freshmen.

    True? or BS?

  13. @11 – It’s no coincidence that Richt’s departure from Tallahassee coincided with Georgia’s success – and FSU’s offensive struggles. I’m pleased the Fisher will be taking the reigns when the Old Man retires (which can’t happen soon enough), but I think if you polled Florida State fans, Richt would be the guy they wanted to follow BB. Alas, that probably won’t happen.

    I am a proponent of a playoff too although I don’t think “national championships” can be disregarded as left to voters’ whims.

  14. Sam,

    I pulled it from a West Virginia board on There were some similar threads on the FSU board that I saw after I posted here also.

  15. Murph,
    From what I understand, Hawaii got paid lotsa money by Michigan State to drop them from the schedule this year.

    If voters’ whims aren’t taken into consideration for determining a “national championship,” how do we actually determine the 2 teams that play for the BCS title? Most of the weight comes from human voters.

    And, if not for the whims of voters, how do you explain these examples?

    In 1979, Southern Cal beat Alabama in the regular season, but Bama wins half the “national title” by remaining #1 in one of the polls.

    In 1973, undefeated Notre Dame beats undefeated Alabama 24-23 in the Sugar Bowl. Alabama still wins one-half of the “national title.”

    And why does LSU become the only 2-loss team that gets a chance at the “national title”?

    Sounds like voters’ whims to me because it damn-sure doesn’t make good sense to crown a champ like that.

  16. cj………….maybe richt was the golden boy at one time, but after the way he handled his departure, i;e, shutting down the nations #1 offense in the championship game……….not many people in tallahassee want to see him around here anymore. any coach that announces hes leaving should clean out his office and be gone by noon.

  17. Alabama won half of the title in 1973 because the last UPI poll was taken before the bowls (which had at one time been normal). I can’t really defend the 1978 (not 1979; Alabama went undefeated in ’79) half-title, except to say that they should have won in 1977 but got jumped by Notre Dame.

  18. Sounds about right.

    2002: redshirt
    2003-04: mission
    2005-06 freshman-sophomore

    “A bunch of 27-year-old offensive lineman” is a bit of an exaggeration.

  19. Mac,
    Got my two years mixed up, but my point remains: The systems, old & new, are silly.

    In 1977, Bama would not have even gotten the opportunity to play undefeated Texas because of the conference bowl ties at the time. (SEC champ to the Sugar, SWC champ to the Cotton)

    If I remember correctly, Notre Dame lost to Ole Miss that year (a week after Bama had blasted the Rebs, BTW), but because they were an independent, they could take the best bowl bid available.

  20. 38 — yeah, that sounds more like it.

    whenever byu’s on national tv i always love the inevitable comments/graphics on how many languages the team speak, how many eagle scouts they have, and how many are married. eyes roll, with a laugh.

    recruiting is somewhat limited — they seem to not look far beyond utah county. ugh. but they do get a number of guys from Polynesian islands. They also get some JC transfers and other recruits that aren’t LDS (Mormon), but not that many. There have been a number of QB’s that weren’t LDS, and you could understand why they’d want to play there. McMahon, Detmer, and Sarkisian are a couple of recognizable names at QB that weren’t LDS but wanted to play in a system that throws a lot.

    and just for fun — Dale Murphy’s son intends to play WR there. At least that’s the latest update I have seen.

    and for what it’s worth there are some hosses on the o-lines in the SEC. is there a big difference between 300 pounds at 21 and 300 pounds at 23-5? dunno

  21. I still think the Michigan AD should be fired. Publicly embarrassing the University by first getting outmanouevered by LSU’s AD, and then getting rejected by Rutgers’ head coach is an auto-fire situation.

    Accidentally hiring a decent coach has no salvage value. What’s RichRod good at anyway? Besides having Steve Slaton and/or Pat White.

    Damn, even on good days I can’t get the Michigan pessimism out of my blood. The scars inflicted by Lloyd Carr run deep indeed.

  22. Mormon population in the polynesian islands is pretty big- there is a BYU-Hawaii. Went to HS in Japan and for some reason on the base we had a failry decent sized group of Hawaiian Mormons who worked as civilians for the US Army. I guess they do a lot of mission work in Samoa, Hawaii, etc.

  23. DickRod©

    There’s nothing to patent, the process in coming up with it was rather simple and obvious. I copyrighted it instead.

  24. I always wondered why the hell McMahon went to BYU? That seems like the least likely place for him to end up–he must have hated it.

    I think the SEC is generally the strongest conference but it does run in cycles. There was a time in the 70s when the Big 8 was a monster–at least at the top with Nebraska and Oklahoma.

  25. We probably wouldn’t make a big deal about which conference is better is those Big 10 assholes weren’t always talking about how great the Big 10 is, when it is down.

  26. But, Hate King, according to Kirk Herbstreit, because Ted Ginn is fast, there’s no speed differential between the conferences.

  27. Ted Ginn is the greatest football player ever! Troy Smith and Ginn made for the most dynamic 1-2 punch in college football history! For example, that time they dominated Florida in the title game…oh wait…

  28. I thought Brady Quinn to Jeff Samarjzgizkaiaja was the most dynamic 1-2 punch. Especially with the Super Genius calling plays for them.

  29. Well, Ginn did dominate for one kickoff, then he got hurt.

    I love how people say, “Ohio State had too much time off between games.”

    Without blitzing, Florida’s defensive line defeated OSU’s O-line on almost every play. They could’ve played that game 10 times & the result wouldn’t have been terribly different.

  30. what about Chad Henne to Mario Manningham? ESPN made it sound like last year Manningham played the entire season with a broken knee- SUPER MARIO

  31. The Big 10 geographically covers a large percentage of the U.S. population. In addition, Big 10 graduates populate most of the large urban and media centers in the US. There are a lot more Big 10 graduates, especially Michigan, in, say, Boston or Chicago or Washington, than SEC graduates. For example, in my office, my boss is an Ohio State fan and I work with several Michigan alums, while I’m the only person with any connection to the SEC. The SEC schools are largely regional and the only major market connected to the SEC is Atlanta. Thus, the Big 10 receives more national attention and is, consequently, overrated simply because it’s a more national conference. It’s like the Yankees and the Red Sox and Notre Dame.

  32. Brady Quinn is having a great year in leading his team to an undefeated season! He will probably be the NLF MVP just like ESPN thought he would!

    That is if Troy Smith or Maurice Clarett doesn’t beat him out.

  33. Manningham actually did have a leg injury last year, he just didn’t play all season with it. Instead he missed 3 games.

  34. We probably wouldn’t make a big deal about which conference is better is those Big 10 assholes weren’t always talking about how great the Big 10 is, when it is down.

    Right. Because you SEC homers are soooooo objective.

  35. I think we are. I think we would all confess when the SEC has a down year, not that it happens too often like it does up north.

  36. Lord knows, we talk up the SEC. But the Big 10 (and to a lesser degree, the Pac 10) have this “nothing but us matters” mentality exemplified by the Big 10 Network and by the whole Rose Bowl crap. (Again, the only reason for the Rose Bowl tie-in is that the Pasadenos were tired of Alabama coming in and whipping the locals.) They’re the ones standing in the way of a tournament. They’re the ones who won’t travel south to play. (You can complain about SEC teams not playing good schedules, but they play ACC, Big 12, and Pac 10 teams all the time. They can’t schedule Big 10 opponents because the Big 10 won’t play the SEC. Because we kick their ass.)

  37. The fact that the Big Ten doesn’t have a conference championship is shameful- I realize they have 11 teams and would make for awkward scheduling, but to hand the Big Ten title this year to Ohio State would they played nobody should be depressing to them. They walked into this championship game.

  38. The Big 10 did win 2/3 from the SEC last year, but their overall bowl record vs the SEC is not so good.

    Don’t have that number handy, but here are two examples I know by heart: Ohio State has never beaten an SEC team in a bowl game (0-8), and Georgia has never lost to a Big 10 team in a bowl game (6-0).

  39. However, there are some SEC schools whose scheduling really deserves criticism. For example, Alabama’s awful schedule for next year has gotten even worse, with Northern Illinois out and Arkansas State in. This is apparently in preparation for an opening weekend game with Clemson, but that hasn’t happened yet.

  40. The Big 10 can’t have a championship game; you have to have twelve or more teams. They’re waiting on Notre Dame, because Pitt and Syracuse and West Virginia are too declasse for the Big 10.

    The Pac 10’s really screwed, because there aren’t any good fits to add to get up to 12. (Nevada? BYU? Boise State? Hawaii?)

  41. Smitty, you’re right — nor would they share a conference (and revenues) with the likes of UNM or Nevada. There just isn’t anyone, except maybe Colorado.

    If ND keeps going 2-10, NBC won’t keep them around and the Big 10 won’t want them. Again: Pitt, Syracuse, W.Va.; these are solid programs that fit in with the teams already in conference.

  42. Based solely on resources and location, BYU and Utah are the most logical fits for the Pac 10. I don’t think Boise has the infrastructure to play in the Pac 10. They’ve only been a D1 school since ’96.

  43. Lynn Swann should have based his campaign on making State and Pitt play each other. He might be governor today. Well, maybe not.

    (Note for Yankees and other aliens: The Alabama legislature really did force Alabama and Auburn to start playing each other again during the forties.)

  44. Although Georgia & Auburn are “The Deep South’s Oldest Rivalry,” the Dogs didn’t actually play in Auburn until 1960.

    All of the games (save one in Athens) were played on neutral sites (Atlanta, Macon, Savannah, Montgomery). For example, they played the game in Columbus, Ga., from 1920 to 1958.

    Of all the games we play, that one is still my favorite.

  45. #17


    The same question you posed to ububba about what the Dawgs have done in the span of the Richt coaching era, is the same question many have posed to all of us Braves fans during a 15 year stint where we kept making the playoffs but only had 1 W.S. title – as opposed to the Yanks who had far less playoff appearances but managed 3 titles.

    Obviously the difference is that despite the payrool disparity (oh, and that half the Yanks were apparently juiced…) the Yankees won the titles on the field, head to head. At the end of the day, that’s the fairest way to decide things.

    ububba is 110% right – Georgia wasn’t given a shot this year (whatever side you may take on that, we don’t have a shot at the national title) and in 2002, most Georgia fans and even most SEC fans who saw plenty of Georgia that year, knew our 13-1 team could have definitely beaten Miami or Ohio State in the “mysthical” national title game.

    I am with ububba and would take our multiple top 5 BCS finishes; until we have a tournament in place to actually decide a true national champion, rather than a unicorn-like mythical one, us Georgia fans are pretty pleased with Mark Richt’s results from 2001-2007.

    re: SEC v. Big 10

    There really is no comparison here; besides Florida’s absolute beatdown of the Buckeyes last January, all you have to do is compare the amount of athletes we’ve put in the NFL vs. the Big 10 NFL players, and that answers it right there.

    The best football talent is in the south – it’s the most speed and is the most prepared for the next level. For example with Georgia, we somehow get overlooked every year by ESPN and the BCS, yet amazingly, we currently are neck and neck with Miami for the most active players in the NFL.

    I am not sure the exact count but that was a pretty recent pronouncement; and as a whole, the SEC has far more players than the Big 10, playing on Sundays.

  46. #78


    Oh, wait, a playoff would be fun? But why would the BCS want that?

    Here’s every argument against a tournament and here’s my counter to each one:

    1. The Money that would be lost?

    Oh really? So having USC, Georgia, Ohio State or LSU play on TV 3-4 times (depeneding on if it’s an 8 or 16 team tourney) as opposed to 1 time, is LESS money and less ratings?

    2. Ok, but what about the coporate sponsorships of the bowl games, Alex!!!

    So wait, if Georgia and Illinois played a ‘first round’ BCS tournament game, you could call it the ‘Chick Fil-A Peach Bowl’ or the ‘Capital One Bowl’? Why not?

    3. But Alex, what about all those other non tournament teams.

    Ummm, you could still have the Houston Bowl and the Las Vegas Bowl and the Independence Bowl. They could still be matched up by teams that aren’t in the top 8 or 16.

    4. OK, but what about all the missed classes!

    Hmmm, I went to college for 4 years and generally went home to my parents for most of December. My last exams were usually by the first week of December. Class usually didn’t start up again until a few days after New Year’s.

    Plus, kids and athletes miss far more class playing Thursday basketball games in March, then Saturday football games in December.

    5. But, Alex, the logistics! The travel! How will Georgia fans travel if they win a first round game in say Houston and play the following week in New Orleans!

    Ummm, because we have hundreds of thousands of student and alumni fans who regularly travel for any game possible. So do lots of other schools. Georgia fans requested 40,000 tickets to the Rose Bowl in the first day it was even hinted we might be sent to Pasadena.

    The bottom line is there’s basically no good argument against having a tournament.

    Ultimately, it’s MORE money for all the schools, the NCAA, the BCS; more stadiums fool with more people and more drinks and food sold with more games.

    You suddenly get a better rating for a USC-Hawaii first round game because besides that appealing to those fanbases and college football fans, it will also get a big rating from say Georgia & Illinois fans if the USC-Hawaii winner was to next play the Georgia-Illinois winner.

    And I will say it again – having a big time college football team like USC or Georgia play on national television 3-4 times rather than once – it means more $ and ratings.

    Plus, I would like a show of hands from all Bravesjournal bloggers who have had rollicking Saturdays the last few weeks with no college football? It’s been so desolate and barren, the NFL Network has had to resort to putting an NFL game on a Sat. night, because people are so hungry for football.

    Especially with the cold weather – if you are stuck inside on a Saturday in December, what could be better than a BCS triple or quadruple header?

    Arguments over.

  47. I recently read Stewart Mandel’s book on college football, and the chapter on conference realignment was interesting. I didn’t recall all the ‘almosts’ in realignment. Colorado to the Pac-10, Texas A & M to the SEC, Florida State choosing the ACC because it would be easier, Texas politicians forcing Texas and A&M to take Baylor and Texas Tech with them to the Big 8. Mandel agreed with Mac that there just isn’t an obvious candidate for the Pac-10.

  48. From all I read & hear, it’s the Rose Bowl more than anything else that is preventing a genuine playoff at the moment.

    In SI, an unnamed AD at a big school said something like, “We’re basically losing out on an opportunity for a legit championship to the Rose Parade.”

  49. #79 –

    I find that strange that you would take BCS top 5’s over a national championship, which regardless of whether it is a playoff or not, these teams are still recognized national champs. Not to take anything away from what Richt has been able to do at UGA, but from living here in Atlanta, I’d say you would be in the minority with your view on that.

    I would love a playoff format. But it isn’t likely to happen for at least the next decade.

  50. Because Tiger, I can go to sleep at night knowing we A) don’t have the 2 best teams in America playing for the national title and B) knowing that Georgia wasn’t at least given the chance, despite the fact that they played better football than anyone (except maybe USC) through the final 6 weeks of the regular season.

  51. The strange thing about the lack of a playoff is that the college presidents say they are concerned about educational issues, etc., yet they don’t have a qualm about having teams play in the middle of the week at 9 pm. Virginia Tech seems to play half its games on Thursday night. They also continually add additional games to the schedule even though it clearly puts more stress on the athletes. It seems to me the reason there is no playoff is that the presidents and alumni at the big-time football programs perceive that they have more control in the present format. Why would the big-time programs want to risk losing their cozy bowl tie-ins. And the people that run these bowl games are usually pretty powerful and influential people; they don’t want their games reduced to a semi-final. I can’t figure out any other reason.

  52. I’d rather have the mythical national title than a slew of top 5 or top 10 finishes. As a fan, you can sleep even better at night knowing you don’t have to fall back on excuses, no matter how legitimate they are (in this case, most every “program” suffers from the same idiotic system).

  53. Gregson,

    Well, LSU may beat Ohio State on January 7th (something that shouldn’t be very hard to do), but it doesn’t make that a true “national champion” and most college football fans do feel this way. They may hoist a trophy and wear silly hats, but LSU knows they didn’t have to earn it on the field.

    They just had to have a big mouth, arrogant coach, and a bunch of biased, know it all ESPN talking heads, to get a shot.

  54. I don’t think any LSU fans will care about the illegitimacy of their “championship” — but I agree with you completely (it’s a ridiculous way to conclude the season).

  55. Most LSU fans I know are some of the most dillusional people in the country, so yes, they clearly believe they are the best team, despite how often of late they’ve been proven wrong.

    It doesn’t help when you have people like Mark May and Kirk Herbstreit saying this as well.

    But you are 100% right – let LSU, Georgia and either 6 or 14 other teams play it out on the field so there is no more controversy.

  56. The argument that Georgia deserves to play in the National Championship game because they have played the best football in the past six weeks is a weak one; You have to play well all year. I agree that we need a playoff, but until then Georgia screwed up losing to Tennessee and especially S. Carolina- too bad.

  57. If you have a playoff, there are no excuses. Win your conference or get an at-large bid (if that’s how it’ll be done) & let’s get it on.

    I mean, if we have to complain about who just misses the cut in a 8-, 12- or 16-team playoff, I can live with that.

    It’s not going to keep me up nights if the 13th ranked team deserves to be 12th.

  58. Well Alex, UGA did get a shot and lost to Tennessee and Spurrier. All they have to do is win one of those games and they would be in a better spot. The only team I think that can bitch at all is Oklahoma.

  59. Yes, you are spouting the ESPN lines, Smitty and Clarke and no one denies those losses hurt.

    But LSU has lost 2 as well, and they lost two later on, but had the good fotune of being in the far weaker SEC western division, therebye avoiding the Dawgs in the SEC title game.

    Plus, if Georgia is ranked #4 and Ohio State is ranked #3 in the BCS, and the #1 and #2 teams ahead of you LOSE, how do you not just move up the next two teams – when it’s what had been happening all year long?

    Also, winning your conference is not a requirement. It should be, and something like that would shut people like myself up, but as long as it’s not a requirement (see Nebraska in 01 and Oklahoma in 04), then Georgia had every right to argue their case to be IN.

    But Smitty, I wholeheartedly agree with you about Oklahoma. Had the Dawgs been left out in favor of Oklahoma, that would have sat a lot better with me.

    The Sooners killed the #1 team in the BCS, Missouri, in the Big 12 title game. LSU, on the other hand, had just lost to unranked Arkansas the week before, and barely escaped the SEC title game, if not for 1 Erik Ainge INT.

    Had Oklahoma and not LSU jumped the Dawgs, most Georgia fans could have respected that. But LSU does not deserve their spot.

    (And Virginia Tech people have the weakest argument of all – the ACC is a joke conference and when Tech played LSU, LSU whipped them).

  60. Then again, speaking of ‘winning your conference’ Ohio State is probably going to be IN the BCS Title game every year – let’s see – they have a joke of a conference they play in (The Big 10), they don’t play anyone decent on their out of conference schedule, and they don’t have to play a conference title game.

    At least the Pac Ten puts their reg. season schedule up through other conf. championships; the Big Ten doesn’t even have the balls to do that.

    The Big Ten should be referred to as the “no Balls” conference.

  61. I am a Florida football fan. I would totally take our national championship last year over a bunch of top-5 finishes. We beat an undefeated team from a major conference by 27 points. We were the national champions, the best team in college football, and we settled it on the field in September, October, November, and January.

    Now with that in mind, I am totally in agreement with ububba and Alex R that we absolutely, positively need a playoff system. I will not say, however, that without one, Florida’s national championship isn’t valid.

  62. Rob,

    The difference last year was that there were only 3 teams (Florida, Ohio State and Michigan) with a truly valid argument (Boise last year and Hawaii this year could participate in a BCS tourney, but as long as their conference is filled with jokes, they shouldn’t be allowed in the big dance in the current system).

    So, though Florida maybe the enemy as a Georgia fan, I have no qualms with Florida’s title last year – they earned it and beat the heck out of Ohio State; plus, Michigan went out and got their asses handed to them by USC in the Rose Bowl. Michigan lost any rights to their argument.

    Plus, all Florida and Michigan did together last year was expose how pathetic the Big Ten is.

    But LSU does not have remotely the same argument in 2007, that Florida did in 2006. Apples & oranges entirely.

  63. But Rob, you wouldn’t be saying that if the BCS decided to take Michigan over Florida for the title game. And that was a distinct possibility, if you recall.

    And that’s my point: We’d never know how much better Florida was over Ohio State, if it hadn’t come down to a human vote or a computer “strength of schedule.”

  64. Bottomline from my last comment – Florida earned the National title (in a flawed system) and LSU, if they win on Jan. 7th, may call themselves a champion, but they did not earn anything whatsoever.

  65. Alex R.,

    No, most Georgia people don’t concur on Oklahoma. At least with LSU that gives the conference the chance to get the national championship. In other words, if LSU wins and Georgia wins, Georgia could go to #2.

    If Oklahoma played Ohio State, then the whole SEC would be under #2.

  66. Jonathan, thanks for pointing that out, and that certainly is curious timing on the Braves’ part. Javy seems to have been practically the only guy on that snakebit O’s team who Bigbie didn’t implicate.

    Then again, he’s really old, and really really done. I’m not convinced he’ll outhit Sal Fasano.

  67. Under the BCS system, the Braves probably would have won titles at least in 1992, 1993, 1996, and 1997, and possibly in 2003.

  68. Well we have what we have- both LSU and Georgia are two loss teams, but Georgia lost two games to teams in their division, and looked awful in both. LSU lost two games to one division team and one to a conference squad that was undefeated at the time, and lost both games in OT.

    Out of bias, I would love for Georgia to play for the championship- although I went to Florida, I grew up a Dawg- my dad played there. But until they fix this, this is the crap we have.

  69. LSU did lose in 3-OT’s in both of their losses to Hiesman trophy canidates! UGA lost to Tennessee and a team that isn’t going to a bowl! I am sorry, but you have to win your conference to be a National Champion.

  70. I think the BCS got it right last year. Michigan and Ohio State duked it out on the field, and Ohio State emerged, earning their right to the national title. Florida won the SEC, and earned their right into the national title. The best team won and was named national championship. If Michigan had any place in the BCS title game, then obviously the system did not get it right.

    I personally think that LSU is a good team. They had more close calls than Florida last year, but I don’t think they are undeserving of being in the title game. This year, however, is that one year that absolutely proves you need a title game after LSU, OSU, UGA, OU, KSU, WVU, MU, and other teams all have some type of case for being in the national championship.

    A 16 team playoff would be a little much. An 8 team playoff would seem more reasonable. What’s funny is that Alex R.’s exact playoff system proposal was given to me by a good friend a mind 7 years ago. My how little things change. All hail the Rose Bowl…

  71. Rob,

    How do you know that Ohio State was better than Wisconsin? How do you know that Wisconsin wasn’t better than Florida?

    You don’t.

    By a quirk in scheduling last year, Wisconsin didn’t play Ohio State. Wisconsin went on to win their bowl game, while Michigan & Ohio State got slaughtered.

    End of the season, Wisconsin lost one game just like Florida.

  72. ububba,

    They lost to Michigan. Michigan lost to Ohio State. Ohio State lost to Florida. They also barely beat Arkansas, who Florida beat by 10. That’s not scientific, but I don’t think Wisconsin had a right to play in the BCS title game.

  73. Mac, I’m not so sure you’re right on the Big Ten vs SEc head to head matchup. I believe its actually very close in recent years, but I will research it a bit when I get home and get back with results.

  74. Rob,
    BTW, I’m not making a case for another team playing in the BCS title game. I could really care less.

    I’m just poking holes in the system & showing how patently bogus it is.

  75. The point is that teams improve as the year goes on. The team that wins the WS or Super Bowl or NCAA basketball tournament isn’t necessarily the best team at the beginning of the year. I’m not crazy about the NCAA format that allows teams with mediocre regular seasons, like NC State, to get hot and win, but, by the same token, Georgia was obviously a much better team at the end of the year than it was when it played SC and Tennessee. That’s why you have playoffs; the Minnesota Vikings are obviously a better team now than they were early in the season. But it’s pretty bogus this year anyway because there is no clearly best team in college football. Absent a playoff, however, I think you should have to win your conference to play for the national title.

  76. Also, you can’t use transitive properties in college football. Beating the team that beat the team is meaningless. It’s also usually an exercise in futility simply because you run into a circle.

    e.g. Michigan beat Illinois. Illinois beat OSU. OSU beat Michigan. Trying to figure out which of the 3 is most deserving of anything based simply on the victory chain will leave you chasing your tail. Its a bad example because there are obviously other criteria to separate them this season, but that isn’t always the case.

    Also futile is comparing margin of victory. Last year Michigan beat Vanderbilt by more than Florida beat Vanderbilt. Florida then crushed OSU, which beat Michigan.

    Aside- should I count Big Ten wins over Vanderbilt in my tally later?

  77. Ububba, not only did Florida beat Georgia, but so did Tennessee, Vanderbilt, and Kentucky. Not a good argument.

  78. I found a site that has SEC 63-45-2 overall vs the Big 10, but I don’t know if they count current/former league teams.

    You’re right. I should’ve taken it one step further.

  79. Rob,
    My point remains: Florida lost a game, just like Wisconsin. Both schools lost to worthy opponents. But they didn’t play each other, so how do you know who was better? You can’t possibly know that.

  80. Wow this is one argument that I am glad to not be a part of. All I have to say is that there should be an eight team playoff, and that should be the end of it. There are 32 bowls, and the money that each one of those bowls generates is why there will never be a playoff system at the D-1 level, unless they find a way of keeping those lesser bowls, and letting the crappy teams play in them. D1 schools and the NCAA are only interested in making money, so they won’t scrap the bowl system for a playoff.

  81. @111 Rob,

    Michigan played USC.
    OSU played Florida.
    Wisconsin played Arkansas.

    Not hard to see why OSU and Michigan lost their bowl games but Wisconsin didn’t.

  82. I agree that the system is bogus, and “this team beat this team and such and such” is not a good indicator. I also tend to the think that had Florida lost later in the season than when Michigan had lost to OSU, perhaps Michigan would be in the title game. With that said, Florida was the best team in college football last year, and they proved it the best way possible save a playoff system.

  83. Rob,
    He meant me.

    There are plenty of ways to do a playoff.

    A few ideas:
    Take the 11 D-1 conference champs & add 5 at-large teams. Seed them & play it off.

    Or, if that’s considered too many post-season games, take the 11 D-1 conference champs & add 1 at-large team. Seed them & play it off.

    Or, take the 8 conference champs who are seeded highest, add 4 at-large teams. Seed them & play it off.

    The rankings will come into play, but it won’t be as exclusionary as the past.

  84. Aside- should I count Big Ten wins over Vanderbilt in my tally later?

    That’s cute. We’re a charter member. (That said, if the opportunity arose to switch conferences with Clemson or Florida State, I’d be completely in favor of it.)

  85. Jeremy @64
    Didn’t the Big Ten win two of the three head to head bowl matchups last year?

    The fact is the Big 10 was lucky as hell to win the two. The manner of the victories matters and your top dog (or two) getting blown out in major Bowl Games is flat out embarrassing.

    We all know that Florida destroyed Ohio State 41-14, but Arkansas ran all over Wisconsin and won nearly every statistic. I’m not even sure how the Hogs (Houston Nutt) managed to lose that one, but it was a close game that probably should have gone the other way. Wisconsin squeaked out a 17-14 win. Take a look:

    1st Downs: ARK 18 WIS 15
    Total Yards: ARK 368 WIS 201 (!!)
    Passing: ARK 136 WIS 206
    Rushing: ARK 232 WIS (-5)!!!!!!!!!! (How do you win a game rushing for NEGATIVE 5 YARDS?!)
    Turnovers: ARK 2 WIS 3 (so the Hogs even win the turnover battle)
    Possession: ARK 30:29 WIS 29:31 (about even)
    Penalties: ARK 12/123 WIS 4/35 (maybe this is it–flukey, big disparity)

    Verdict: Fluke win for Wisky in a game they were dominated.

    The Penn State-Tennessee game genuinely could have gone either way, but finished with a 20-10 PSU victory. Let’s take a closer look. With 10 minutes left in the 4th quarter, the game was tied 10-10. The Vols had driven to PSU’s 13-yd line, poised to take the lead… then gave up an 87-yd fumble for TD. This also flipped field position, which PSU converted into a FG on their next drive. Ballgame. Fair enough, but that easily could have gone the other way.

    As if to underline the point, look at the game stats:

    1st Downs: UT 17 PSU 19
    Total Yards: UT 350 PSU 380
    Passing: UT 267 PSU 197
    Rushing: UT 83 PSU 183
    Turnovers: UT 3 PSU 0 (here’s your ballgame)
    Possession: UT 26:58 PSU 33:02
    Penalties: UT 7/55 PSU 6/45

    Verdict: Fairly even steven, but turnovers killed the Vols. Penn State won fair and square, but Tennessee belonged on the field and the game was as likely to be a Tennessee win as a Penn State win before the 4th quarter 87-yd fumble return TD. This is football, so that counts, but it doesn’t say one team dominated another.

    So rather than simply say the Big 10 was 2-1 vs. the SEC, it’s more accurate to note that the Big 10 had one blowout loss by its champion against the SEC champion, one fluke victory and one fortunate victory.

    That doesn’t say Big 10 > SEC to me. Sorry.

  86. Javy reaction post up.

    Stu, Vandy definitely should be in the ACC and Clemson definitely should be in the SEC. But Clemson went in the ACC so they’d have a conference they could win in football.

  87. Cary,
    Arkansas lost because they had a million penalties in that game. But them’s the breaks.

    As Ron White says, you can’t fix stupid. And the Hogs were stupid that day.

  88. Alex R. @79

    I am with ububba and would take our multiple top 5 BCS finishes; until we have a tournament in place to actually decide a true national champion, rather than a unicorn-like mythical one

    Pardon me if I don’t believe that at all. You have used many, many words to prove the exact opposite or else you’d be just peachy with Georgia’s Sugar Bowl matchup with Hawaii. The matchup favors UGA and yet another Top 5 BCS finish. High Five!

  89. Speaking for myself, I want to send the Rainbows back to the North Shore with broken surfboards.

    It really is a no-win gig for the Dogs & I’d rather play USC (or another prestigious program), but that’s the lot we’ve drawn, so we might as well win.

  90. #137 –

    Interesting tidbits on Clemson’s conference affiliation prior to helping to form the ACC:

    The Southern Conference (or SoCon) is a college athletic conference affiliated with the NCAA’s Division I. SoCon football teams compete in the Division I Football Championship Subdivision (formerly known as I-AA). Member institutions are located in the states of Georgia, North Carolina, South Carolina and Tennessee. Formed in 1921 as a result of a split from the Southern Intercollegiate Athletic Association, the Southern Conference ranks as the fourth oldest major college athletic conference in the United States.

    Charter members were Alabama, Auburn, Clemson, Florida, Georgia, Georgia Tech, Kentucky, Louisiana State, Maryland, Mississippi, Mississippi State, North Carolina, North Carolina State, Sewanee, South Carolina, Tennessee, Tulane, Vanderbilt, Virginia, Virginia Tech, and Washington & Lee. None of these institutions participates in the Southern Conference today.

    The SoCon is particularly notable for having spawned two other major conferences. In 1933, 13 schools located south and west of the Appalachians (Alabama, Auburn, Florida, Georgia, Georgia Tech, Kentucky, LSU, Ole Miss, Mississippi State, Sewanee, Tennessee, Tulane, and Vanderbilt) departed the SoCon to form the Southeastern Conference. In 1952 and 1953, seven schools (Clemson, Duke, Maryland, North Carolina, NC State, South Carolina, and Wake Forest) withdrew from the SoCon to form the Atlantic Coast Conference.

  91. Tiger224,

    Mac has a cuddly disdain for Clemson. I recall a snide remark or two about Jeff Francoeur, who signed there to play football (Mac’s disdain for Jeff is perhaps less cuddly). That said, I like both Mac and Clemson and hope the Bama 2008 is line up already.

  92. Greg-

    Me too. I am looking forward to a Bama game next year (my father in law is a huge Tide fan)…a home and home series with Auburn (that I don’t THINK has been cancelled)…and a renewal of the Clemson/UGA rivalry starting in 2011, I believe.

  93. Alex,

    I was at UGA in 1980. Don’t knock winning the “mythical” national championship until you try it! It was really cool even though I seriously doubt Georgia was the best team in the country. (Notre Dame dominated the Sugar Bowl but lost because of a couple of fumbles–see discussion above about how the SEC teams dominated Big 10 teams but lost.) The Cardinals won the WS even though they probably shouldn’t have been in the playoffs; I’m sure their fans will take it.

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