193 thoughts on “Are you on the list?”

  1. I was just emailed this….

    Brady Anderson
    Manny Alexander
    Rick Ankiel
    Jeff Bagwell
    Barry Bonds
    Aaron Boone
    Rafael Bettancourt
    Bret Boone
    Milton Bradley
    David Bell
    Dante Bichette
    Albert Belle
    Paul Byrd
    Wil Cordero
    Ken Caminiti
    Mike Cameron
    Ramon Castro
    Jose and Ozzie Canseco
    Roger Clemens
    Paxton Crawford
    Wilson Delgado
    Lenny Dykstra
    Johnny Damon
    Carl Everett
    Kyle Farnsworth
    Ryan Franklin
    Troy Glaus
    Rich Garces
    Jason Grimsley
    Troy Glaus
    Juan Gonzalez
    Eric Gagne
    Nomar Garciaparra
    Jason Giambi
    Jeremy Giambi
    Jose Guillen
    Jay Gibbons
    Juan Gonzalez
    Clay Hensley
    Jerry Hairston
    Felix Heredia, Jr.
    Darren Holmes
    Wally Joyner
    Darryl Kile
    Matt Lawton
    Raul Mondesi
    Mark McGwire
    Guillermo Mota
    Robert Machado
    Damian Moss
    Abraham Nunez
    Trot Nixon
    Jose Offerman
    Andy Pettitte
    Mark Prior
    Neifi Perez
    Rafael Palmiero
    Albert Pujols
    Brian Roberts
    Juan Rincon
    John Rocker
    Pudge Rodriguez
    Sammy Sosa
    Scott Schoenweiis
    David Segui
    Alex Sanchez
    Gary Sheffield
    Miguel Tejada
    Julian Tavarez
    Fernando Tatis
    Mo Vaughn
    Jason Varitek
    Ismael Valdes
    Matt Williams
    Kerry Wood.

  2. I figured since Mac won’t do it, I will; here’s the list of Bravesjournal users using BGH, for blog enhancement – I’m on the list:

    Alex R.
    Joey T.
    Mac Thomason
    Rob Copenhaver
    Adam M.
    Andy H.
    Hate King

    I have written at least 57 checks in the last 6 months alone. Sorry guys.

  3. reposted –

    I copied this from a post at Primer (hat tip – dfan)

    Lenny Dykstra, David Segui, Larry Bigbie, Brian Roberts, Jack Cust, Tim Laker, Josias Manzanillo, Todd Hundley, Mark Carreon, Hal Morris, Matt Franco, Rondell White, Roger Clemens, Andy Pettitte, Chuck Knoblauch, Jason Grimsley, Gregg Zaun, David Justice, F. P. Santangelo, Glenallen Hill, Mo Vaughn, Denny Neagle, Ron Villone, Ryan Franklin, Chris Donnels, Todd Williams, Phil Hiatt, Todd Pratt, Kevin Young, Mike Lansing, Cody McKay, Kent Mercker, Adam Piatt, Miguel Tejada, Jason Christiansen, Mike Stanton, Stephen Randolph, Jerry Hairston, Jr., Paul Lo Duca, Adam Riggs, Bart Miadich, Fernando Vina, Kevin Brown, Eric Gagne, Mike Bell, Matt Herges, Gary Bennett, Jr., Jim Parque, Brendan Donnelly, Chad Allen, Jeff Williams, Howie Clark, Nook Logan

    Paul Lo Duca makes me lol

  4. Since Paul Lo Duca’s on the list, I guess it’s proof that HGH doesn’t help your height any.

  5. Alex,

    I am not hear to talk about the past. I am here only to be positive and talk about the future. If that does not work, I no speak english.

  6. From the last thread:
    Cuddly Kevin Brown is on there.

    I love that 1) there is a Chad Allen section and 2) that it goes on for nine paragraphs. That’s more than was written about him in his whole career.

    I also learned something: HGH can go bad! From GlenAllen Hill’s section:

    Radomski said that Hill told him that he was getting human growth hormone in San Francisco and was “not feeling anything.” Radomski thereafter sent Hill a “sample bottle” of human growth hormone without charge and told him to try it. Hill tried it and told Radomski that he “felt everything you told me I would feel.” Radomski told Hill the human growth hormone Hill had been taking likely had spoiled. Hill purchased two kits of human growth hormone from Radomski.

    Truly hilarious.

  7. If the Yankees of Mets ever traded for or signed you after 1998… congratulations you probably used steroids!

  8. John,

    I guess when Giuliani was cleaning up crime and Central Park in New York, he should have been cleaning up the Yankee and Met clubhouses!

  9. I love Paul Lo Duca’s odd little notes and e-mails, I don’t know why Paul wrote those or Radomski kept them unless he never unbundled them from the money trail and checks.

  10. Well, after “My 2 Dads” we did only seem to see Givanni Ribisi around a lot more than Chad Allen. I wonder if Reiser and Evigan were using.

  11. I heard an interview with Paul LoDuca on WFAN yesterday. Lots of Mets fans still like him, apparently for his fiery inability to hit with any pop in ’07.

    Anyway, the hosts asked him about the impending Mitchell Report & he began to stammer & said, “Oops, I almost got in a car accident…I’m driving right now…huh-huh..”

    And I immediately thought: “He’s trying to change the subject—he’s on the list.”


  12. My favorite part: as Mitchell emphasizes (fairly, IMO) that the media not focus entirely on names named, the ESPN ticker, right below him, flashes repeatedly that Clemens and Pettitte have been named. So not only is ESPN ignoring – of course – that advice, they refuse to relinquish their Yankees bias while so doing. Gotta love their consistency.

  13. I’m looking at the report right. Kent Mercker, David Justice, Dennny Neagle are all on it. So is LoDuca, Kevin Brown, Gagne, Brendan Donnelly, Pettite, Clemens (for steroids not HGH). Pujols isn’t on it

  14. (I’m pointing with one hand while typing with the other…)

    “I never used blog enhancement drugs!”

    Although it would make sense… i’m just a fringe poster, trying to make it in the bigs. umm… please strike that last statement from the record.

  15. Does anyone think that maybe Petrino was a genius? He leaves two days before one of the most historically important documents in professional sports is released. I think the worst thing to do would be to leave during a slow news cycle. I am not sure if he will even warrant a mention on ESPN anytime soon.

  16. Looks like there’s no current Braves. Yay for that. Does anyone else get a bit of pleasure out of the fact that it has so many “dynasty” era Yankees?

  17. Murphy3Ever-

    I guess that makes you what, the Paxton Crawford of Bravesjournal? ;-)

    There seems to be a lot of controversy over Pujols. All I know is he looks like an obvious ‘roids person, whatever the lists say.

  18. I called my buddy who is a big David Eckstein fan and told him Eckstein was on the list. I don’t know what is funnier: that he believed me, or that he bashed Eckstein for not using better stuff.

  19. silly alex r — writing checks.

    just buy on-line! you can’t trace pay-pal records. umm…

    or just get your wife to buy and take them as well. you can’t arrest a husband and wife for the same crime! (according to george bluth)

  20. I am proud not to be on the BGH list. I have tried to stay on this blog using my natural talent. OK, maybe that wasn’t the best strategy…

    Maybe it’s just me, but if I were buying illicit substances, I probably wouldn’t be so quick to cut a check when I could pay with nice, nontraceable cash. But that’s why I don’t make the big bucks.

  21. I honestly do feel like certain GM’s might have had a knack for picking out steroid users, like those users had the types of surges that attracted the likes of Cashman or they are psychic. A lot of or all of it probably has to do with those GM’s being very active in the market and certain clusters of friends and teammates getting busted out of a whole population where use was prevalent, but I can pretend the teams I hate were ‘roid mills. Does anyone see a Brave being implicated while on the team besides Paul Byrd, and maybe Gary Sheffield ?

    Although after reading the e-mails that Epstein saw before he traded for Gagne and in light of how he performed, maybe the GM’s should be the guys getting drug tested.

  22. Alex,

    I want to know the sources for your BGH list. I want to issue a strong statement of disgust for all those who have use BGH over the last two years. I thought I was blogging on even terms, but this just flies in the face of my code of ethics. I hope Mac takes strong action against all suspected users before real evidence can clear their names and reputations.

  23. I’d love to listen in on a LA Times staff meeting right now. The two most (media) beloved Dodgers recently were Paul LoDuca and Eric Gagne. Both are on the list. There’s even a hand written love note to his drug dealer from LoDuca on ‘Dodger Stadium’ notepaper.

  24. Most of these guys were Yankees or Mets at one point, and a lot of them are directly traceable to Radomski. If they had more clubhouse rats in more baseball cities, I’m sure they would have had a lot more names.

  25. Justin,

    What is the nature of your relationship with Commissioner Selig that you managed to avoid that list!?

    And though I can’t reveal my sources for the list, I will say the initials ‘DK’ maybe involved…

  26. I’m guessing that few folks are gonna heed the advice of letting the names lie. But if Selig takes Mitchell’s recommendation, there shouldn’t be any suspensions… except, Mitchell notes, in particularly egregious circumstances where the integrity of the game is at stake. What the hell does that mean? Are they talking about Bonds?

    Part of me is interested in how all of this will affect Bonds, now the subject of a federal indictment. Clemens, of course, just as big an ass and probably more detestable, hasn’t gotten quite so much attention. Where’s his ‘Game of Shadows’? Is he still gonna get into the Hall?

  27. Kyle,

    let’s just say as a nation, we don’t officially ‘recognize torture’ but how do you feel about Chinese waterboarding?

  28. now that my drug usage has been outed, does this mean that my name will appear with an asterisks when posting from now on?

  29. I bet Lenny Dykstra is devestated wherever he is right now.

    Watching the press conference with a cold one, talking about the glory days.

  30. Active players on the list form mlbtraderumors.com

    Here are some new active players brought to light as users of performance-enhancing drugs by the Mitchell Report. By the way, they did talk to Jose Canseco.

    Larry Bigbie (confessed)
    Brian Roberts (based on an admission to Bigbie)
    Jack Cust (based on an admission to Bigbie)
    Rondell White (Kirk Radomski)
    Roger Clemens (Brian McNamee)
    Andy Pettitte (Brian McNamee)
    Gregg Zaun (Kirk Radomski)
    Ron Villone (Kirk Radomski)
    Ryan Franklin (Kirk Radomski)
    Miguel Tejada (performance-enhancers provided to Tejada by teammate Adam Piatt)
    Mike Stanton (Kirk Radomski)
    Stephen Randolph (Kirk Radomski)
    Jerry Hairston Jr. (Kirk Radomski)
    Paul Lo Duca (Kirk Radomski)
    Eric Gagne (Kirk Radomski)
    Matt Herges (Kirk Radomski)
    Gary Bennett (Kirk Radomski)
    Brendan Donnelly (Kirk Radomski)
    Howie Clark (Kirk Radomski)
    Nook Logan (Kirk Radomski)

    If Nook Logan promises to take a greater amount, we should sign him. ha ha ha

  31. I don’t think taking this stuff makes these guys evil. They tried to get an advantage, perhaps unfair. But it’s not like they are pushing drugs to school children. Frankly, on the list of bad things people can (and do)do in the world, taking steroids doesn’t rank all that high.

  32. Jack Cust had one of those out of nowhere seasons. It really doesn’t surprise me.

    No Javy. That surprises me even more.

  33. Kyle,

    And no Marcus Giles either – that really surprises me.

    Of course Blauser probably took HGH – but only in contract years…

  34. No Ron Gant on this list, either. I seem to remember that many people were sure he was on the ‘roids.

  35. Gant was also a workout freak. I think the reality is we don’t know much about this stuff, and certainly can’t tell who uses or who doesn’t based on appearance.

  36. Imagine how bad the Orioles would have been in the early to mid 2000’s if they didn’t have 7 guys taking steroids…

  37. this report seems to be similar to the final papers i will write this semester — not being able to check enough sources and basically telling us what we already know. heh heh.

  38. I think the lack of Braves is probably more of an effect of the amount of leaks from the clubhouse. I think we would all like to believe the Braves program was clean, but it was probably the same as others.

  39. Yeah, I don’t think anyone should be surprised that this player or that player didn’t make it. Obviously, I haven’t read the whole thing, but unless the player was in contact with Radomski, McNamee, or Bigbie, then there doesn’t seem to be any way that they are going to be identified.

  40. Alex,

    All my known associates are no
    longer available for comment. But as to your question, I don’t know.

  41. I feel like now we need to do a lengthy investigation into all the crappy journalism and scapegoating that took place before this report. All the writers who put the focus on Bonds and a few others they didn’t like or even some people that there were only rumors about it and claimed personal drug use was some sort of great evil but then would love Clemens and probably won’t want to come down on him now. I love Kruk’s suggestion that any restriction on Bonds be placed on Clemens. I demand Skip Bayless’ head on a platter.

    It seems like a lot of people just gained or are about to gain “perspective” now that they actually have facts and Mitchell’s recommendations to follow, similar to the Patriots spying scandal. Somebody get ESPN’s ombudsman on it.

  42. Pascual Perez
    Matt Franco
    David Justice
    Danny Neagle
    Todd Pratt
    Kent Mercker
    Mike Stanton
    Paul Byrd

    Who have I left out?

  43. Ed Wade, the great genius, trading for Tejada 24 hours prior to the Mitchell report.

    You gotta love Ed Wade.

  44. So, Rocker’s having a good year in ’01, gets traded at the deadline, and then two years later he purchases two shipments from April to July ’03. I wonder if there’s anything to this…

  45. @40

    I think that is correct. There is too much of a correlation between those few teams and the names associated with PED’s. That a person’s name isn’t on this list doesn’t rule them out from taking anything; it just means that no one ratted them.

    The investigative reporting scene in Minnesota probably isn’t at the same level as it is in New York.

  46. Rob Cope,
    I just envision Rocker being on the Devil Rays and at the end of his proverbial rope and completely depressed and deciding to try steroids/PEs, it is a hilarious mental image to me on several levels, mostly because it is the “Rays” and it occurs in a trailer park in my head and it is John Rocker.

    Would anyone honestly care if he does get caught using while on the Braves, unless it’s a player who you looked up to as a kid or a really big name would anyone actually be shocked? I actually find the report way more funny than shocking.

  47. Franchises hit hardest by this report IMO:

    1. Orioles (Cheat and still can’t win)
    2. Yankees (Cheat and…used to win?)

  48. #79 and #40

    I think that’s a fair assessment and since all these guys took this stuff before it was illegal, it shouldn’t even be a story anyway – unless they were taking after it was banned.

  49. Does anyone else kinda get the feeling that they busted a couple of “steroid-cells” operating out of NY and San Fransisco and that players who got their stuff from a seperate “trainer” in Springfield or wherever have remained undetected?

  50. Obviously, I haven’t read the whole thing, but unless the player was in contact with Radomski, McNamee, or Bigbie, then there doesn’t seem to be any way that they are going to be identified.

    Pretty much. These are the only three sources of information for this report. So we are only getting names from their sphere of influence.

    Obviously any list of steroid users that doesn’t include Bret Boone is incomplete.

  51. @81: The franchise hit hardest is the Dodgers. Check out their memos in the Lo Duca and Brown sections. Ouch.

  52. I plan to utilize the Paul Byrd defense for my appearance on the list.

    1) I was recovering from carpal tunnel syndrome.

    2) I am immune from earthly judgment. Behold my withering godliness.

  53. The reason Bonds was implicated before this list was made public was because there was TESTIMONY IN A FEDERAL COURT! He is facing perjury charges. The fact that this has been reported has nothing to do with his demeanor.

    Journalists had BALCO to go with; there was no BALCO for Clemens. Mitchell’s evidence on Clemens has just been revealed today.

    You cannot attempt some contrarian position as it relates to Bonds because now Clemens appears guilty of something similar.

    Attempting to shoot the messenger is an old tactic. But, as usual, it doesn’t wash.

  54. Okay, if this is the case, then nothing should be done ultimately. All these players were unlucky. If there are people that won’t be caught. then we don’t know how far that goes. If testing has lessened the cheating, then that is really all that can be done.

  55. sansho1-

    I think Carpal Tunnel was the #1 thing Mitchell heard in his report on the Bravesjournal BGH list.

    Plus, if your hair is falling out like beedee’s, it’s a slam dunk case.

  56. I think the most shocking thing about today’s events is that according to Jeremy Schaap after Jose Canseco was dragged out of the press conference he left without waiting around to be interviewed. The major Deep Throat of this whole thing (besides BALCO investigation) and a shameless camera hound and he left that easily? Must have been headed to an interview or something his agent or someone had set up.

  57. no more Willie Harris

    According to a press release from the Nationals, they’ve signed Rob Mackowiak and Willie Harris to one-year deals.

  58. I got my BGH from Tony. That’s all I have to say at this time.

    I will admit that I’m biased because I wanna give most Christians the benefit of the doubt because I myself am one, but I’d like to see a bit more evidence on Paul Byrd. Brian Roberts is a professing Christian and I don’t see anything wrong with the evidence, but it is accepted that Byrd did have a messed up pituitary gland, and he doesn’t look like he was dirty. Of course, neither does Mike freaking Lansing.

    This is what I’m looking for in this investigation: how many people claiming to be morally good people (Christian or not) are on this list? Roger Clemens seemed to have this righteous indignation when people would ask him about steroids, and I’m sort of glad his name is on the list.

    One person I will admit I am really glad to see not on the list is Chris Reitsma. I know, I know, but just like Byrd, Reitsma was an open Christian and his career mirrored some of the guys who would be on this list. Of course, he might just be outside the hedge of Conte, Bigbie, McNamee, and Radomski.

  59. Missed that. I actually didn’t follow baseball in the late 90’s. That’s when Byrd played with the Braves, right?

  60. Ububba you responding to me?

    I was referring simply to the sensationalism and the contrived outrage behind it. I am more bemused that so many people are shocked people would do something to gain a competitive advantage and act like it was the end of the world. I hate the “moralist” broadcasters and journalists, like in the palyoff game after Randy Moss faked a moon when Joe Buck decided to aim for an award and overreact to it and hope the clip rally blew up. I hate poor journalism and in an age where many writers care more about marketing themselves than getting the facts right or having perspective much of what I have read and seen in the last few years made me mad because of its stupidity.

    I never said I thought it was wrong that people discuss the testimony in the BALCO trial, it was always the fact that people who already hated him would make him public enemy number one and not treat other people the same way (of the few who had as much evidence against them). I am not advocating moral relativism and am not a Barry Bonds apologist; hat these guys did was both legally wrong and unfair to their fellow baseball players. I just can’t pretend to care about any aspect of this other than this other than its influence on youth athletes and competitive fairness. I still prefer baseball’s policy in recent years to the one used by the Olympics and WADA and toss people for two years for Rogaine.

  61. I’m not on the BGH list but that doesn’t mean that I didn’t try them to be a better blogger. I guess that I’ll always be a ‘quad A poster’, sniff…

    This report is crap. As others have pointed out just because a player isn’t on the list doesn’t mean that they weren’t using. It just means that they weren’t caught. The past is the past and there is nothing that can be done about it. To fully get past this MLB and the union have to institute mandatory universal testing with full season suspensions as penalties. That would get the players and the franchises attention in a hurry.

  62. Rob,
    Flush with the success of John Burkett and the failure of Shane Reynolds, the Braves had Byrd for one year in 2004 as the “white guy in his 30’s we hope pans out as a 4th starter for a year”.

  63. John,
    Yep, tawkin’ to you.

    Perhaps we differ on this, but I don’t consider a lot of the commentators that you mention to be serious journalists.

    I’m interested in the facts as they are reported, not whether or not someone like Skip Bayless feigns outrage. To me, it’s neither illuminating nor entertaining.

    We can thank ESPN for those kinds of segments, but that’s another matter entirely.

  64. Pettitte is a professing Christian, too, Rob. I’m most interested in his and Roberts’ stories. I feel like we know the Byrd story. Well, I hope we already know it.

  65. ESPN should exploit its “connection” to the Mitchell report via Fernando Vina and shoot a “This is Sportscenter” commercial that shows Vina giving Scott Van Pelt an injection in the ass, promising that it will help him.

  66. I have never knowingly taken enhancements and if I have taken them Alex slipped them to me.

    My favorite name on the list is F.P. Santangelo, because F.P. Santangelo’s name always made me smile.

  67. Mac, A guy named McCutcheon Alan Thomason gets a kick out of F.P. Santangelo?

    Ok I buy that its Alex’s fault. From now on never drink the Tropical punch flavored Capris Suns at the R. household.

  68. Me surprised I not on that list. I had ‘roids for years – oh wate, that was hemroids. Yuk Yuk Yuk!!

  69. Ububba,
    Yeah, it’s nice to see ESPN has the real journalists on their payroll on this with some ex-player reaction too, this is some of their best work. I never gave Bayless any credibility as a journalist, but i think it is sad that ESPN and others are moving away from legitimate journalism and championing people like him the sports talk radio approach gets ratings and earns the clowns that take place in it fame and fortune.

    This is a larger issue than just Skip Bayless for me although I hate him, I feel like such behavior is endemic in the media and that many legitimate news sources have turned into tabloids and entertainment shows and feel that if something is not done
    That is why I mentioned the ombudsman, because self-policing is really the only standard approach with the to combat the transgressions I am describing, obviously it is not a criminal offense and a grand jury cannot be called but I think that what’s wrong in journalism and other forms of media is far more dangerous to society than steroids. I am more from the Bill Moyers viewpoint that says soemthing like “these people have a responsibiltiy to society and are not properly fulfilling that role” and its cousin the “how come the media doesn’t question the evidence to the war in Iraq but stalks Paris Hilton” approach as outlined in Moyers’ PBS documentary “Buying the War” and by countless others.


  71. damn I suck, left on sentence unfinished and left words out some places, the most glaring being “the ‘how come the media doesn’t question the evidence to the war in Iraq but stalks Paris Hilton’ approach” should be the “evidence that led to the war in Iraq”. I am not trying to talk politics in a baseball forum, and am referring to the evidence Colin Powell presented before the United Nations which came from an at-the-time anonymous source who was later admitted to lying and being pressured into giving his evidence. That should not be a controversial statement for anyone who is informed of the facts of the incident case, but I expressed it very poorly unfortunately.

  72. This is the one guy I really never thought I’d see on this list. Exavier “Nook” Logan

    Mainly because I’ve never heard of him.

  73. I’m relieved to see I’m not on the BGH list too. Although, honestly, if I were, I think it would be about the equivalent of seeing Rafael Belliard on Mitchell’s list

  74. Most news a the present, and especially anything that comes from ESPN is speculation and opinions sprinkled with facts, is not factual reporting that is backed up with reliable sources.

  75. John,
    For the most part, you’re preaching to the choir.

    As long as supermarket tabloids continue to sell, as long as Entertainment Tonight continues to do ratings, the dumbing down of America will continue & you’ll see more previously reputable media outlets try to cash in.

    But, regarding the Mitchell Report, I don’t draw any more conclusions beyond the world of baseball.

  76. wait, never mind, Balco is all over the report… my bad. So is Bonds. I’m not sure he’s on the list, however. I need to sit through and read this thing, I guess, though it looks like a big task.

  77. Rob,

    No benefit of the doubt to non-Christians,huh?

    I haven’t read the report but I don’t know why people are jumping on it. It is what it is. I doubt that they are claiming to have found everyone that took steroids. I would have preferred that they not release any names at all, but given all the speculation, that wasn’t feasible. But, to show how silly this has now gotten, not being on the list seems to be evidence of having done steroids.

    And, for all the righteous indignation being expressed here about tabloid journalism, I seem to remember myriad discussions where particular players were accused, without any evidence, of taking steroids; for example, Marcus Giles.

  78. I’m thinking the Yankees are not real nervous about the potential effects of the Mitchell report or who might have been on the list …….. seeing how they finalized and announced Alex Rodriguez’ new $275 million contract 3 hours before the list came out.

  79. Marc – Nobody on this blog, to my knowledge, purports to be a journalist, or even objective. Now, I know nothing and no one is objective or free from bias, but there is a difference between someone writing something here than being on national television or radio throwing someone under the bus. So even if a Colin Cowherd or Skip Bayless don’t claim to be objective, or even real journalists, their forums provide them with the facade of authenticity and authority. And that makes a difference, because like it or not, they have real audiences.

  80. Since Barry Bonds is on the list as having been linked thru Balco, I wonder if they have the evidence that will then allow them to convict him on the perjury charges that he said he never ‘knowingly’ took the drugs.

  81. Adam, I don’t at all mean to imply I’m objective — I’m not, I’m a homer. I try to be as rational as I can despite that fact.

    But I am a journalist (kinda), in that I’m an administrative assistant at one of the larger newspapers.

  82. Adam,
    I’m a professional journalist, but no longer in the sports field. (I’m in another toy department.)

    This report only sheds light on the players that were fingered by a few people. I’m sure there are more that have escaped the spotlight. But MLB wanted to come out with a report & try to move on, even if we don’t have “the complete list.”

  83. I have a journalism degree from OU. But without an audience, what do any of us really have.

    That’s why I love BravesJournal. Everyone is a journalist. This is a two way street where everyone has a right to a post and an opinion.

    Pretty much, we’re all decent dudes, right? That’s all that matters.

    It DOES NOT take a journalism degree to see that the Mitchell Report does not constitute more than PR, good or bad, for the sport. And until actual results are shown, I really don’t have much emotion to any of the circus right now. I love baseball. The end.

  84. I saw the rumor list, and now the real list. When I saw Wally Joyner on the rumor list, I immediately knew it was fake. I mean, the only player more squeaky clean than Joyner would be yours truly, Dale Murphy.

  85. 111 — ha! i too was wondering how espn would react to vina.

    136 — umm, murph, wally admitted trying the stuff a long time ago. felt the pressure to keep up, tried it once, and threw it out. sad that it came to that, sad that he caved, but good for him for coming to his senses.

  86. Roger Clemens offers outraged response to the report. This could get humorous.

    It’s not just the steroid thing, it’s also that Clemens comes off as quite a pansy:

    Clemens said that he was not able to inject himself, and he asked for McNamee’s help.

    McNamee injected Clemens approximately four times in the buttocks over a several-week period with needles that Clemens provided. Each incident took place in Clemens’s apartment at the SkyDome.

    Inviting another dude over to your apartment to inject you in the butt because you can’t do it yourself? Now that’s embarrassing.

    So would McNamee lie about Clemens and Pettitte? Maybe, but there is this:

    No truthful statements can be used against McNamee in any federal prosecution by that Office; if, however, he should be untruthful in any statements made pursuant to that agreement, he may be charged with criminal violations, including making false
    statements, which is a felony.

  87. Clemens’ denial reminds me of a scene from Casablanca:

    Captain Renault: I’m shocked, shocked to find that gambling is going on in here!
    [a croupier hands Renault a pile of money]
    Croupier: Your winnings, sir.
    Captain Renault: [sotto voce] Oh, thank you very much.
    Captain Renault: Everybody out at once!

  88. Since Chuck Knobloch is on the list, I’ll assume steroids make it impossible to throw a ball to first base.

  89. Another thing about this report is that most of the players on it are fairly marginal guys. This makes sense- the greatest difference in baseball isn’t making $20 million versus $15 million a year. It’s being able to play the greatest game in the world for a salary that will put your kids through college vs. having to get a real job.

  90. I know there have been a lot of jokes about ‘roid rage, but is it possible that Clemens throwing that piece of bat at Mike Piazza in the 2000 World Series is an actual, bona fide example of it? According to McNamee, Clemens began using again in the 2nd half of the 2000 season…

  91. Did you guys see the Players Association press conference? I swear those guys are the biggest @$$holes ever.

  92. #140 – “McNamee injected Clemens approximately four times in the buttocks over a several-week period with needles that Clemens provided. Each incident took place in Clemens’s apartment at the SkyDome.”

    and after that Clemen’s got one of these


    sorry couldnt resist

  93. The Paul Byrd-Eddie Perez fight happened while Byrd was with the phils. Smoltzie got tossed early after throwing at somebody in retaliation for somebody throwing at Eddie. Then when Byrd came up to hit, Eddie and him started to fight, then Klesko came in and started throwing phillies around like Charles Barkley in a bar

  94. I didn’t see the Players Association conference… what did Fehr say?

    Also, kudos to sansho1 on the Casablanca reference.

  95. best fight I can remember is Varitek and ARod – just loved it

    but was that the same fight where Pedro threw the bald guy (cant remember his name) on the ground?

  96. I was surprised at what Fehr didnt come out and say. I figured he would have something to say regarding Selig’s comments about suspending guys on a case to case basis. As far as I can remember he didnt touch the subject.

  97. Chris Young and Derrick Lee had some mighty punches thrown at each other, good thing neither one landed

  98. I kinda like the fight with Galarraga. The one when he took that haymaker swing but missed. Man, if only he had landed that.

  99. This is not nearly as fun as speculating that every player (and especially all the swarthy ones!) that I don’t like is on steroids. Can we go back to that please?

  100. Is anyone else completely bored with this steroid stuff? I don’t know, I guess I don’t really care. I mean, the list is pure conjecture. This is all just a giant waste of time.

  101. csg,

    your thinking of pedro throwing down don zimmer in one of those classic 4.5 hour/game series that boston and new york play…in defense of pedro, zimmer is an old prick and he was out on the field running his mouth when he shouldn’t have been, in fact hes lucky it wasnt someone a lot bigger than pedro that tossed him around like a rag doll

  102. I just caught the last bit of sportscenter where they ran a montage of their talking heads discussing the report all the while cinematic music played in the background. Is it me, or is this more about espn at this point than baseball? I wonder if there’s a disconnect b/w fans and the media on this issue. I’m guessing… yes. We don’t care as much. (hence the revenue)

  103. The whole thing (the Mitchell Report) strikes me as a colossal waste of time, on a par with the Congressional hearings for tepidness, obviousness, and lack of satisfaction for the consumer. (I guess there are worse ways to spend time and effort, but, really, is there any real news of importance in the Report, other than the naming of names?) The lessons to be drawn — though a Mitchell Report wasn’t necessary — are (1) have clear rules with substantial penalties and enforce those rules and (2) keep skeevs out of the clubhouse. I guess, if anything, this weakens the argument for asterisking Bonds’s record. But even that is not news.

    I’m trying to think of a historical parallel in terms of readability and prurient value. Ah, The Mitchell Report = The Starr Report?

  104. Mike,

    I was there at that fight. I told dad to get out the video camera to record Galarraga and he wouldn’t do it and then the next thing I knew the fight broke out. I didn’t let him hear the end of it the rest of the night. *laughs*

  105. I just remember seeing that on TV and thinking that the pitcher was really lucky that Galarraga didnt connect. Wasnt that against the Rockies? Do you remember who was pitching?

  106. Mike,

    It was against the Dodgers and Darren Dreifort was pitching. He left the game because he had a cut, and the Braves went on to pound whoever replaced him.

  107. *looks it up* It was Mike Judd. The Braves and Denny Neagle won the game 7-5. Chipper hit his 30th homer of the season that day. :)

  108. Yep, Robin Ventura. Only major leaguer ever to get 5 hits off of Nolan Ryan in a game. One to the nose, one to the mouth…

  109. Just thought of a question. How many more World Series’ do the Braves win if the other teams didn’t have so many steroid and/or HGH users? I say at least 3. 1996, 1999, 2000 Yankees, Yankees, Mets/Yankees were the teams that kept them from winning.

  110. Nolan Ryan is the reason I’m glad baseball went to interleague play. As a kid, I always wanted to see him play, but with him in the AL and me living in Atlanta, there was just no way. Never really got to see him play much on TV either, but he’s still my favorite player of all time.

  111. We would have won if Jim Leyritz wasn’t on steroids, HGH, cocaine, horse tranquilizers, codeine, LSD, hashish, quaaludes, and a cocktail of experimental anti-jerk medications.

  112. I agree with every drug Mac listed Leyritz was on. There’s a special place in hell for him.

    The BGH list by me today was my overall response to the utter ridiculousness of the Mitchell Report, the results of it, and the fact that any of these players were even outed for something I compare to me drinking 4 cups of coffee to give myself an edge at work.

    I am so proud of our U.S. Congress for wasting taxpayer dollars on this. They should shut all of Congress down for this sh–. Congress should be focusing on major issues that affect real people, not this crap.

    I am glad George Mitchell feels relevant again. I guess spending the days by the lake in Maine with his grandkids wasn’t enough for the old coot.

  113. The Braves to open the 2008 season in Washington on Espn Sunday Night Baseball. DOB has an article on it in the AJC.

  114. Alex,
    MLB had to do something to put this issue in the rear-view mirror, even if the report couldn’t possibly bust everyone.

    Call me naive, but I also would like to see fewer young, aspiring ballplayers taking these drugs because they feel like they have to, in order to compete. My cousin was a collegiate player in the late-’90s & he told me some ridiculous stories about steroids, etc.

    Sorry, but I have no problem with these people being humiliated in the public eye.

    Re: The fight video
    I was at Incident #3, the Benitez game where he hits Tino Martinez. It came immediately after giving up an upper-deck shot to Bernie Williams. You could hear the thump of the ball in Tino’s back all over the stadium.

    And the fight went on forever. It was like professional wrestling. And as soon as order was restored, Tim Raines hit the next pitched ball for another homer. Yankee Stadium was a zoo that night.

    Sadly, I was at the Leyritz WS Game 4 in ’96 as well. Afterward, I just went to the Euclid Avenue Yacht Club & had way too many pints. It didn’t help.

  115. ububba,

    Off topic, but I was wondering if you ever saw the Descendents in your old punk rock show days?

    I got them glued to my ears the last week or so, one of those bands that got me through high school, haha.

    Great songs.

  116. The Ventura-Ryan video is so at odds with the legend of that episode. You’d think it was a real ass whupping. Instead, Robin rather half-heartedly attempts a tackle, and Nolan gives him some nuggies to the scalp. It’s hysterically overblown as a violent incident.

  117. Dustin,
    I liked ’em, but I never saw them. I don’t recall that they ever came to Athens. (I think the Circle Jerks & X were the only true LA punk bands that did—most of ’em came to the 688 Club or the Metroplex in ATL instead.) By the time I discovered them, they had broken up because, if I remember correctly, their singer went to law school.

    I recall that some of The Descendents reformed with a different singer to become a band called ALL, which I did see. Speedy, melodic pop-punk, just what you’d think.

    At the time, I was in a Ramones cover band that did just-for-fun one-off gigs & we did our first show at an outdoor event behind an Athens pizza parlor in 5 Points. After our set, the ALL guys actually came up and complimented us.

    Unlike the other guys in the band, I was no real musician, so I definitely ate that up the most. I’ll always remember that.

  118. That first Descendents record and Liveage are both awesome.

    “If….growing up…means being like you, I don’t want to.”

  119. I loved almost all of those LA punk bands from that era. Another fave and one that I think was deeply underrated: The Gun Club. It’s genuine mix of blues & punk. “The Fire of Love” is amazing.

    One more music note: I’m rediscovering an old SF band called American Music Club. Great, great songs by a guy named Mark Eitzel. I always seem to be attracted to those depressive types…

  120. I remember Eitzel writing some great stuff but it’s been many years since I’ve heard it. Time to dig around the crates, I guess.

    Have you seen/heard the Yeasayers, ububba? I think they are from up your way.

  121. Great stories as always ububba! ALL is just the Descendents with a singer who is not Milo, literally, the band plays, Milo sings, Descendents. Band plays, Chad sings, it’s ALL. Strange but true.

    Milo actually went to college after the band realeased “Milo Goes To College” in 1982. He went for bio-chemitry,from 83-85 and from 87-to sometime in the ’90’s and between the now very sparse Descendents tours, he works in a lab, doing the bio-chemistry stuff.

    In 1980, they recorded thier first record with Milo singing, the only one that didn’t have sissy love songs on it. It was called “Fat” and it was like 6 minutes long. Subject matter was food, fishing, parental authority, and caffiene. That EP spawned such majestic punk rock classics as the 16 second long “I Like Food” and the all-time punk materpiece “Weinerschnitzel”, clocking in at a brisk 11 seconds.

    Sometime prior to “Fat”, Bill the drummer, and his fishing buddy Pat, came up with this philosophy of ALL, i.e. “the total extent”, which gave birth to very many Descendents songs, and the creation of “the Bonus Cup”, which supposedly aids them in their quest for ALL.

    The band ALL, from what I gather, is jsut an extension of what the Descendents started.

    Blah, I’m boring myself, hope you enjoy the history lesson.

  122. Watch the Ryan video again. At the end of it, he jacks him off the ground with an uppercut. Ryan knew how to fight. Grab the guy and hold him until the crowd gets there, then pop him right before the scrum starts.

  123. @178,
    alex r,
    while i agree that it is ridiculous that congress had to get involved in this, baseball had clearly come to a place where they needed to be policed for the sake of the game. as a former athlete, i can say that it is truly disheartening to know that even if you train your ass off and do everything the “right way” you still can’t stay with the guys who are using.
    There will always be someone who is looking for that extra bit of help to make them that much better, and this is where science/medicine in sport starts to blur the morality lines. I think it’s important that all involved in sport (fans included) know what product they are getting and at what cost. Pro athletes make the choice to enter the public eye when they sign their contract and take the money, there fore they along with their team and sport should be publicly held responsible for their actions.
    anywho, there is no doubt in my mind that this list is the tip of the iceberg, but it is the step that forces more accountability in the sport it’s money well spent, lord knows our government has thrown money on far worse things.

  124. Alex,

    I agree that this has been overblown and I’m not even sure what affect steroids actually has on performance, but it’s a little ridiculous to compare steroid use to drinking four cups of coffee. Four cups of coffee won’t shorten your life span, create the potential of homicidal rage, etc, etc. Steroids are a real problem, not because of their effect on competitive balance or on baseball records (all sports records are contextual anyway) but because of their effects of the health of the players. And while I may not care what an individual player does with his body (unless it causes him to react violently toward others, such as his family), I do care about creating a culture where aspiring young athletes feel compelled to take steroids. And, please don’t say it’s a choice. If this is your dream, something you have wanted to do all your life, this would not be a choice for a lot of people.

    My point about how people speculate on steroid usage is not to say that we should be held to the same standards as journalists, but to point out that its sort of like Jerry Springer–people turn up their nose at what he does but they sort of like it. I mean, you can speculate all you want about whether this fight or that incident was related to steroid use, but my guess is it’s not that simple. Just because Clemens might have taken steroids in 2000 doesn’t mean that his throwing the bat at Piazza was related to that. Sure, people can say anything they want here–free speech and all that–but in a lot of cases it seems to come down to which players you like and which you don’t. ESPN is just giving people what they want.

    What gets me is that people seem shocked that there is cheating in baseball, as if corruption in every day life is so rare and as if people never cheat to make more money. Why are baseball players supposed to be more righteous than Enron executives? Congress is the last body that should be expressing shock at corruption. As far as taking illegal substances, there are many people in my generation at least (including me to some extent) that should be careful about pointing fingers.

Leave a Reply

Your email address will not be published. Required fields are marked *