ESPN – Braves vs. Giants Box Score, July 26 2007 – MLB
“Yeah, take the game off, guys. Don’t strain yourselves. It’s a long season.”
It is a long season. But with a rare opportunity (of late) to make up ground on the Mets, the Braves couldn’t afford to sit their two best hitters, putting in the field a lineup featuring Chris Woodward and Scott Thorman. But that’s what happened, and Chipper (who was hurting a little) and Renteria (who was sat for no known reason) didn’t get to hit until the ninth inning.
The Braves actually led 2-0 in the fourth, after Andruw reached on a God-awful bloop “double” that was actually a routine popup, and Francoeur homered. But that was it for the offense, yet again. Buddy Carlyle started strong, but after the fourth couldn’t get anyone out and wound up giving up four runs, which was enough.
The Sloth didn’t do anything of note. It’s a good thing he was in the lineup, because everyone else on the Giants killed us.
Waiting…for…Tex…to…come…
Yeah….this is one of those I really wanted us to win, because the Mets lost.
It’s on to Arizona….let’s hope we can do some damage in the division and WC races there.
No urgency Schuerholz. Give Franco a few more starts. What’s the worse that could happen?
I could almost se this one coming. It was about time for Carlyle to backslide a little. He didn’t have much tonight, but then again this was the Giants and not the Red Sox so he “only” gave up 4 in 5.2. Also, Lincecum has been tough lately. Add in resting Chipper and Renty….the teams 2 best hitters…AT THE SAME TIME…and well, the offense was predictably anemic.
I don’t know if this was mentioned on the last thread, or not, but Utley broke his hand tonight. That’ll really hurt the Phillies.
Damn, the Nats justed picked up another game on us.
🙂
just play .500 ball against the worst teams the rest of the year and we’ll be set
Okay, this is the question. If Mark Teixeira isn’t gotten in a trade, would it be shameful to give up on the Braves?
I will say this though: The Sloth made a good, but lucky, catch on the farthest ball that Chris Woodward will ever hit for hte rest of his career.
Shameful? Yes. Imprudent? No.
The Braves have historically played well after the All-Star break, but so far this season, this is the first time my optimism has given way to the fact that the Braves may very well be…uh…”average.”
Being from Ohio, I still haven’t recovered from the series with the Reds. It gave my friends, Reds fans, something to cheer about for the first time all year.
Also, Braves Notes on the Official Site has JS still claiming that pitching is a greater priority over Teixeira, citing three Pirates relievers as possible acquisitions. It also says that the asking price is too much for those pitchers, so I have no idea how official any of these “rumors” are.
More Teixeira:
http://mlb.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20070726&content_id=2111450&vkey=trade2007&fext=.jsp&c_id=mlb
Looks like Schuerholz is after Teixeria and a left-hander relief pitcher from the Rangers. And he wants a starter from somewhere else. Who really know what he’ll do.
Once we fall behind…might as well go walk your dog.
The team seems to have lost all it’s momentum after that debacle in the ninth a few nights back.
dont really understand why you sit Renteria today, why not just let him play one more. Whatever, we are just a .500 team I guess anyways
Robert,
That would be a bizzare time to lose momentum because we actually won the game.
That would be a bizzare time to lose momentum because we actually won the game.
Even so. A leaky bullpen will deflate a team faster than anything, and that’s happened a lot lately.
All I thought about the past few days was “I hope the Braves don’t give up 755 to Bonds during this stretch.” I’m glad it’s over.
This actually makes me a little more hesitant about making the trade for Tex. If we are really a .500 ballclub against the worst teams in the NL, then the addition of a hitter like Tex probably does not make the difference.
New poll.
Jason Shiell coming back to the majors.
http://kansascity.royals.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20070726&content_id=2111507&vkey=news_kc&fext=.jsp&c_id=kc
I really think we have to get Tex – even if it costs us a little more than it should. If we don’t get him, or someone close to his caliber, we won’t make the playoffs. A good reliever and a starter could make a huge difference in the playoffs, but I don’t think either one will result in us winning more than 5 or 6 extra games during the regular season.
If Andruw hits toward the end of the year and we have Tex, I really like our chances in the playoffs. As someone said earlier, our 2 and 3 hitters are the best in baseball and our leadoff guys haven’t been too shabby. Having a cleanup hitter who can hit for average and power would make a HUGE difference.
Parish,
If we actually had a regular lineup with Tex, and Andruw out of the cleanup spot, I think we’d all see a difference.
The Braves have been playing down like, what, three or four good bats for a couple of weeks now?
In regarding to the poll, the Sloth is not done yet, but he’s quickly becoming a bigger, fatter Julio Franco.
I wouldn’t be surprised to see Julio released if we get Tex or another 1st baseman. I think Bobby has made it clear that he wants to see if Franco has anything left. He’s had some decent at bats and his defense has been good, so I’m undecided, but unless his bat speed improves, he may be done.
It’s hard for me to understand Cox’s lineup sometimes. I’m all for giving Renteria a break at times, but when Cox saw that Chipper couldn’t go, couldn’t he at least ask Edgar if he could play today and take off a few days later? Having Woodward, Thorman, and to some extent Escobar (even though he’s doing well) in the lineup, doesn’t scare too many pitchers.
That’s what led to rage by a lot of us. Cox isn’t the best in-game manager; I’ve accepted that, and I don’t try to argue it, but this was just a super-bad lineup choice.
or lineup guy, I mean.
td, I would prefer to see the end of Woodward era. I am completely sicked of seeing him while I am able to tolerate a bad Julio for two or three more months.
Sam,
I guess I am thinking along the lines of WARP-type stats. Strangely enough, it seems that a single player upgrade rarely accounts for that many extra wins. So, best case, Tex adds four wins over a third of a season? If we cannot put up a winning record against the dregs of the NL, I don’t see how those four wins are enough to make the difference.
Right now, this team is not looking like it is one or two pieces away from a World Series run.
Parish,
So we just do nothing and give up because it’s not possible?
Parish,
Wouldn’t you think that a lineup that would have Teixeira providing protection for Chipper and Andruw might actually get them pitches to hit?
Teixeira would make at least one person better because of the pitches they’d get, and I’d gaurantee that would help. I like WARP too, but it’s not the end-all to everything. The Braves clearly need offense. First base is the only black hole of outs. Teixeira will change that.
The simple fact is this: Saltalamacchia is not going to be used as the full time first baseman, so the only logical thing to do with him is to trade him. Brayan Pena can be the backup catcher very easily.
Well, I didn’t say I wouldn’t do it. I said it makes me more hesitant. I would not part with our top two or three (if Harrison is included, too) prospects for him. That price is too high.
The rest of the Braves’ players’ WARPs are not going to be stagnant the rest of the season.
Parish,
Then you’ve given up. We can’t get to the playoffs with this lineup. How can you say a guy we’ll never use and a guy who’s three or four years away from the bigs and just one of a lot of shortstops we have is a steep price?
Salty, a middle infielder not named Elvis, and a AA or AAA pitcher (not Reyes or Harrison) for Tex. Okay.
That is similar to what has been discussed, but I don’t think the Rangers will take Brent Lillibridge or Dan Smith.
Quite frankly, I don’t see what such the big deal is with Andrus except the P-word.
On Andrus, I can really only go by what the scouts say. The scouts seem to think he is more than “just one of a lot of shortstops.”
If we have several holes, a fact that seems hard to deny, it would be foolish to package all of our top prospects to fill only one of them.
Don’t forget, we got three plus years of Renteria for Marte stright up.
“stright” = straight with an Austalian accent.
Just saw this, any other links?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jarrod_Saltalamacchia
Who says we’re going to do that? You know, I think by the time this is done, Daniels is going to crack and take less.
Now that I think about it. His asking price has been too high for everybody. I honestly think the Red Sox were trying to deke out the Yankees, and I don’t see the Dodgers doing anything. James Loney and pitching? No way.
Well, color me skeptical about Andrus. I don’t really care if they include him or not. Saltalamacchia is the agreed part of this deal, and the sticking point is the relief pitcher. JS is trying to get CJ Wilson too, but I think the Rangers want to give Ron Mahay, who is old as the hills and pitching out of his mind right now.
AAR,
That’s just a general thing, it looks like. But it is accurate; that IS the rumor after all.
I think we’re all jumping the gun a bit about Bobby resting both Edgar & Chipper tonight.
What if Chipper needs more than one day on the bench? Doesn’t it make sense to get Edgar rested while playing the Giants than both of them sitting out a game against the better D-backs?
Wow JS really wants Tex:
http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/story/7065740
I agree with Hawkmoon; you’ve got to rest your players, so why not against the crappy Giants instead of the D-Backs. Yeah, we lost, but they also had a really good pitcher on the mound. That wasn’t Noah Lowry.
Of course, I didn’t watch the game because I can’t, but Lincecum is the real deal, so I’m cool with losing to them, and you might as well get Chipper and Renteria rest on the same day. Sometimes you gotta pick your battles, and with a good pitcher from a bad team on the hill, with a better team coming up, concede and give your starters rest.
As for Teixera, I wish Salty straight-up would be enough. But with that said, giving up Andrus, if that’s what it takes, isn’t the end of the world. Renteria is still good, he’s still here, and we’ve got other options. To me, Andrus is expendable. And with THAT said, if we can get another reliever in the deal too, a pitching prospects years and years away isn’t the worst thing you can give up. If we can get Teixeria and CJ Wilson for Salty, Andrus, and someone not a can’t-miss prospect, then I think I can live with that.
Johnson
Renteria
Chipper
Teixera
McCann
Francouer
Andruw
Diaz/Harris
What a lineup….
How about the part on Salty’s wiki page about marrying his high school teacher? Doesn’t really seem like something someone would make up, anyone know anything about it?
Now, in light of that article just posted, that’s, in my opinion, a terrible trade. If we don’t get a decent bullpen arm, 3-for-1 is not a good trade at this point.
The Rangers would have to take that trade if it’s real.
Tom, I’ve mentioned it several times. Yes, Saltalamacchia did marry a gym teacher (not his own) from his high school.
I would be really pissed if we make that trade. I hope JS isn’t trying to make trades to win now b/c he doesn’t think he’ll be around in a few years. That better be some Rosenthal BS, because that is way too steep a price for just Teixeira.
No way JS makes that trade. No way.
I agree, Rob. Not remotely believable. If that went down, I’d re-evaluate my entire way of thinking about JS, that’s for sure.
That has to be the Rangers leaking disinformation to get the Angels and Dodgers to up the ante.
“No way JS makes that trade. No way.”
Famous last words.
What a joke from Rosenthal as usual. I believe he forgot who is the GM of the Braves. I am sure that’s the deal the Rangers would love to have and is seeking that from the Braves. JS is no fool. We all know he doesn’t do crazy deal like this.
I would do that deal if it included a reliever…at this point it doesnt really matter whether he is a lefty or righty….I would like to CJ Wilson or Gagne, but if its Mahay, its Mahay…..
The real question, is will Jason Shiell’s wife browse around on the Royals version of the Journal.
I’m joining the Braves on their journey to Phoenix for all three games this weekend, hopefully Tex and CJ Wilson will be joining me at some point.
That’s a bizarre trade offer. I have to think JS is bluffing and when the Rangers accept he’s going to say he’s changed his mind and requires a reliever be thrown in. Tex isn’t THAT good.
Boy does the Laroche trade look bad in hindsight although it made a lot of sense at the time.
How bad Ron? The Braves received a closer and a shortstop prospect. Adam’s performance this season proof he is not a sure thing, while Tex is much more of a sure thing with his repeated performance over the years.
…in fact, I still think it’s a great trade despite Gonzo is hurt now.
Look, to echo Nick’s sentiments, and not to sound like I am imitating Allen Iverson, but we’re talking about prospects.
Look, maybe Andrus and Harrison will be studs as well as Salty–it’s too early to tell. But every single freaking year, there’s some low A or Double AA guys we all fall in love with and are like, “no way we trade that guy”–then, when it’s actually happened (Andy Marte), it’s mostly turned out just fine.
Look at Betemit, Marte, Dan Meyer–more often then not, these guys turn out to be league average or worse. Yes, Adam Wainwright looks like a stud and jason schmidt and Jermaine Dye have been terrific Major Leaguers. But for every Dye or Schmidt, most of these guys don’t amount to anything.
Anyone remember Aussie SS, Glenn Williams? Wasn’t he the next big thing? How bout when we were kids…Brad Komminsk…the next Dale Murphy? Komminsk is still a punch line to us 30-something (or older) Braves fans who remember the hype. He was kind of the Francouer of his day because he LOOKED like he’d be great…only less talented then Frenchy.
The bottomline is JS is not going to do this deal without getting Daniels to give up CJ Wilson or another good reliever.
But you trade the what-ifs everytime to get the 27 year old superstar/all star who can help you get to a W.S.
When Mike Gonzalez comes back in ’08, the trade will look a lot better. Gonzo looked great early and had he not gone down, we’d probably have an extra 506 wins from the difference he would have made to our ‘pen.
I meant 5-6 wins.
Alex, this deal will happen. I trust JS on this one.
kc-
Me too. I think he realizes our desperation.
But be careful…everyone “assumes” that if we get Teixeira, he will hit 4th and we will finally remove Andruw’s black hole of strikeouts from the 4th spot. Au contraire.
Watch Bobby and his super fun, crazy logic come into play and he will put Teixeira to 5th, assuring that teams will continue to pitch around Chipper like he has TB.
Hey Alex, how funny, we are on the same page on the batting order issue!!!
But even I, one of the biggest critic of Bobby as some of you know, think Bobby will not be that loyal to Andruw. However, I think Bobby will still hit Andruw at the sixth spot ahead of Frenchy though.
As desperate as we are to get Tex, we should be almost as desperate to release Woodward (it only takes one phone call JS). Unfortunately I’m scared that we may keep him! I mean, Woodward can play all infield postions – of course he can’t play one of them better than a 5th grader!
FWIW, I’m not that high on Matt Harrison. His numbers look, to me, like he’s MLB batting-practice material.
Which would be two-fold in Texas.
Can we trade for anybody? Please?
td, I am with you 100%.
We should make a concerted effort to get all of the crappy players off this roster, but if we could focus are hatred on just 1 player right now, it’s Chris Freaking Woodward. (aka, ‘Keith Lockhart circa 2007’).
The LaRoche trade is still a plus for us even though Gonzo is hurt. He will be back next year and Lillibridge is a solid prospect. LaRoche isn’t exactly putting up 35/125 in Pittsburgh.
The Rosenthal rumor is silly. That would be desperation so it just does not seem realistic. If it were true, we would have already seen a completed trade on the wire. We should just do Salty and Andrus for Tex, then move on. I would think that this can’t drag on too much longer. At some point JS will have to cut off talks and move to plan B while he still has time.
As for last nights game, well I didn’t watch because I didn’t expect much anyways.
Where the heck did everyone go?
Still here…maybe we’re all exhausted waiting for JS to make the Tex trade already!
Jeff Francouer struck out against a guy named Vinnie Chulk….enough said.
People are talking about how the Braves need to do this or that to advance in the playoffs. To quote Jim Mora, “playoffs!? Don’t talk to me about playoffs!” DOB notes that the Braves are 16-10 (now 11) since June 25 and their stats are better than the Mets, etc. But, over the longer run, the Braves are 47-48 over their last 95 games and 30-37 over their last 67, while the NATS are 34-33 over that same span. This team is the epitome of mediocre. It’s really hard to believe this team is in contention. The NL is pathetic; I think Bud should cancel the NL playoffs and let the AL have 4 extra teams.
And, by the way, according to DOB, Bobby thinks Franco is doing a great job.
Indeed, I saw that too this morning, Marc. Julio is not going anywhere. We can only hope the trade gets made so the ancient one gets sent to the bench.
I hated to lose last night since we could have gained some ground, but I did not expect much against young Lincecum. He looked great. It’s the fact that we were 2-hit after the 6th inning that killed me. Truly, if Chipper needed to sit, they should have played Escobar at third and left Renteria in the line-up saving his rest for another night. It wasn’t a bad idea – they had assured a split series and had had a long road trip with lots of extra innings. But poor timing.
“And, by the way, according to DOB, Bobby thinks Franco is doing a great job.
If Bobby thinks you aren’t doing a great job you should commit suicide. Bobby is uber positive. I wouldn’t take that to mean Franco is living up to Bobby’s expectations.
The guy who posted at #43 as “Another Alex R” wasn’t me. I’m kind of wondering who that was.
Do we have another Troll?
Why would someone troll an Atlanta Braves fan journal?? It can’t be that serious…right?
Hey at last Franco can still play defense, he’s not hurting us on both sides like Thorman. Sometimes I really think Thorman feels like he has to get every grounder hit to the right side of the infield. He actually dove into KJ on one grounder last week. I dont mind having Franco if we arent going to let Salty play. After these rumors die down and Salty is still here, then, I will complain if Franco is playing. If were going to bat Thorman or Franco, I’ll choose Franco
Apparently the Braves org. thinks more of Jo Jo than Harrison, maybe Jo Jo has more upside I dont know. I havent followed their minor league career that much. I think Harrison is expendable, if Jo Jo and James are going to be a part of our rotation for the next few years. I just dont see how we can have three lefties like them in the rotation. Maybe Im wrong
“The guy who posted at #43 as “Another Alex R” wasn’t me. I’m kind of wondering who that was.”
It was probably Jarrod Saltalamacchia.
@ 86, CSG: Visit Chop-n-Change, Will Schaffer wrote up a pretty good comparision of Harrison and Reyes just this morning.
http://mvn.com/mlb-braves/2007/07/27/baby-braves-showdown/
I just can’t resist. Here is Joe Morgan’s comment when asked if Teixera will be trade:
“I am not sure he will be traded. Texas may wait until next year to deal him. But if he does go somewhere everyone seems to be thinking it will be the Yankees. But I do not know if they want to raise that payroll. I do not see Teixeira being traded this year especially coming off an injury. Texas would probably get more value for him next year since he is not having a great season.”
Tony, if this doesn’t illustrate how little Morgan knows, nothing will. Every statement here is incorrect. First, not “everyone” thinks he is going to the Yankees–in fact, I have not seen anyone that thinks the Yankees are interested. Second, why would they get more value for him next year, when the guy would be that much closer to free agency? Third, if you haven’t noticed Joe, he is having a pretty good year.
This is typical of Morgan. He does no research and simply speaks off the top of his head as a “fan.” His insight is no more informed than those of us on this blog. The really insane thing is that people actually ask him questions, especting some sort of informed answer.
DOB says Liberty could possibly raise payroll 10-20 mil.
http://www.ajc.com/blogs/content/shared-blogs/ajc/braves/entries/2007/07/26/can_braves_affo.html
thanks, that is a pretty good article. I dont really know how I feel about the deal for Tex. Seems like we are giving up a whole lot for a 1.5 yr rental. With Boras as his agent I highly doubt a contract extension would be reached. I might rather trade smaller pieces at this point and just convert Salty to a permanent 1B
Who knows…
Yes the Braves are mediocre, but they are also only 1.5 games back in the wild card with the chance to take the lead this weekend and 4 back in the division. A playoff berth is there for the taking.
Why isn’t Thorman part of all these potential deals for Tex? I hope they aren’t planning on keeping him around to pinch hit or even play left field.
“ ANDRUW: “I’m really not thinking about it. Hopefully when the season’s over we can come to an agreement and I can stay with the Atlanta Braves forever.”
ANDRUW: “Not really. I just look to myself, look at my tapes, try to stay positive. A lot of people are trying to help you all the time, but you’re the one who has to go out and do it.” ”
Those two quotes from that article are interesting to me. The first one makes it seem like he would be willing to give a home team discount to stay in Atlanta, notwithstanding BorASS.
The second qoute makes it clear that he either (1) doesn’t take any advice from Terry Pendleton, or (2) gives TP no credit for helping him at all. Both of which are disturbing to me.
Harrison might be interchangeble with Reyes and Dan Smith. All are probably not going to be as good as some of our pitchers in the lower minors.
I have more of a problem with trading Andrus. It’s not that I think he is a sure thing, but I think that it is way overpaying to send our three top prospects for Tex.
Marc,
When I say I like Joe Morgan…it’s his in game analysis. For example, on Sunday he was talking about how much movement Jo-Jo had on his pitches. Now as far him knowing what’s going on around the league outside of actual games…he’s no Peter Gammons(before his health issues).
Ron @ 92: I agree with you that we are mediocre and a playoff birth is still there for the taking. The Cardinals were fairly mediocre when they won the WS, they just got hot at the right time. If we are as hot in October as we were in April we’d have a shot.
Tony @ 95: I actually agree with you a little there. I generally find Joe Morgan irritating, but he has played the game. He was also good at the game, he knows what he is talking about when it comes to some of the “in game analysis.”
His problem stems from the fact that he apparently does absolutely no homework and is by no means a mensa candidate. Also, the fact that he has a co-announcer that kisses his ass the whole time doesn’t help either. He needs someone that will call him out when he says something with no factual basis.
I agree with Alex #64. I think the Brave sare doing a terrific job in hyping minor league players. JS is a pretty smart guy and hardly ever, as Alex wrote, did those huys we gave away turn out as great as we were made believe. But that’s the whole point. Marte was supposed to be the next Chipper, and we all fell for it, as did other GM’s. Honestly, I am trusting JS. If he does that 3-1 deal, it is for good reason and because he does know the three guys better than anybody else.
I would think that 3-for-1 deal would get us a stud pitcher.
I won’t believe it until it happens. It’s just so much talent for a short-term player. Maybe Tex isn’t even the true prize. The rumor has been floated in order to get other GM’s attention. If GM’s know that Elvis Andrus is on the table, i’d imagine they’d like a shot at him, too.
I agree with the above comments about Morgan. When he talks about how the game is actually played, I find him insightful. But when he strays into how to evaluate players or team building, he is often incomprehensible and never enlightening. And I agree with JD that Morgan is actually better when he works a game with someone other than Miller. The others do a much better job of taking advantage of Morgan’s obvious expertise as a player without involving him in things he knows nothing about. But I resent his attitude that he is just “a fan.” If he is getting paid to do these games, he’s not just a fan.
Ron,
No one wants Thorman.
JD,
As far as Andruw goes…everyone knows he completely ignores TP. Probably why TP has health problems, along with him being little overweight(clearing throat).
I hate to be so doom and gloom this morning, but I was doing some figuring and it looks like the Braves need to go 36-23 the rest of the way just to win 90 games (which doesn’t guarantee a playoff spot but makes it more likely.) If they win every 3 game series 2-1 the rest of the year and split every 4 game series, they’ll have 21 losses already. Point being – things are tight.
For the Mets, they only have to go 33-28 to win 90. Their road is considerably easier in that regard.
We can only hope our winning ways against teams in the East keeps up because we are going to need it to contend. That’s the troubling thing about this year and last. Our expectations are to go to the playoffs so it’s very difficult to give up on a season. I am certainly not suggesting we should do so this year given how close we are, but the fact remains that much must go right in the final two months and if things continue down the road we’ve been on – well, those things are clearly NOT going right currently. It could be worse, but it could also be much better.
And of course, Tex would help tremendously.
i think it’s pretty clear from watching andruw at the plate that he doesn’t take instruction well.
TP says he looks good in the cage, but then he goes up to the plate and falls down swinging.
Tony,
I know that Andruw doesn’t listen to TP, it is just disturbing he is so open about not paying attention to his batting coach. Especially considering that he can’t hit anything but a fastball on the inner-half of the plate.
I honestly think Andruw needs to get off his high horse and take some advice, because he obviously isn’t getting it done on his own. He pulls off every pitch, he might as well be swinging with his eyes closed half of the time.
Marc and JD,
I don’t know if you remember, but when Joe worked with Skip Carey for the playoffs for a couple of games…I thought they were great. I agree that Jon Miller does kiss his booty.
whats usually the magic number to win the wild card?
If we play just 5 games above .500 form here on out that would put us at 86-76. That’ll be close to the number I think
and i think he’s just saying the right things when he’s talking about staying in atlanta. he’d really undercut the team if he were to say anything else. i don’t think boras will be taking a hometown discount. JS has already pretty much conceded that they won’t be able to sign andruw. which clears a lot of payroll… which makes a resign of tex more possible (but i won’t say probably). plus, doesn’t tex really want to play in baltimore? dunno.
Thanks Timo.
Yes, every year here on this Blog, w eall go nuts over some kid who’s 2-3 years away and maybe really good.
All I know is what I see from Teixeira, who is 27, a superstar, a switch hitter, can draw walks, and has shown he can hit pitching in a bandbox like Texas or on the road, equally.
That currently puts him well ahead of about 70% of our current lineup. The only 2 players we have I currently put in his class are Chipper & Edgar. I love McCann but even he’s not as proven and Teixeira is a much better defensive player then Brian.
As for Scott Thorman, I will actually side with Tony as well–who the hell would want him? I love when people say we should “trade” Thor or Woodward, like these people hold ANY value.
Look, to get superstars like Teixeira, this isn’t like Fantasy Baseball where you try & find one sucker in the league that you can talk into doing a bad deal. This is real Baseball and as dumb a GM that the Rangers fans think Jon Daniels is, he’s smart enough not to waste one of the players he gets in return being a stiff like Thorman.
John Miller’s badness > Joe Morgan’s badness?
Murphy3Ever, Is Andruw intelligent enough to play the politics game? I think he just says what he feels at the time. I think he genuinely wants to stay in Atlanta, not withstanding BorASS. It just depends on how much BorASS appeals to Andruw’s greed or on how much Andruw decides to tell BorASS to make it happen in Atlanta.
I doubt JS has conceded anything at this point. If Liberty gives him the cash to make a deal potentially happen it will happen. . . But that is still doubtful.
Actually, the avg. # of games won by the WC since 2000 is 92 games. However, the actual # has been falling since 2004 from 92 to 89 to 88 last year. (Just NL numbers, mind you.)
Damn Escobar had 2 more hits yesterday…against a righthanded flame thrower. This kid can flat out stroke.
Very disappointed with KJ…0-4, 2 SO…thought he would do well in the 3 hole. Oh well…
Andruw speaks five languages. He probably is as intelligent as most of us non-geniuses are.
Agreed Alex. You can get a pack of cards for Thorman and Woodward together. They hold no value whatsoever at this point. Thorman at least as some potential value, whereas Woodward is a waste of oxygen.
Also, I don’t think the Ranger’s GM is an idiot. It is a safe assumption that he knows more about making these deals than any of us do, if only for the reason that he has more resources at his disposal.
jdmaker1, i noticed in the DOB piece that andruw says that the wants to play with cox for as long as he can. that makes sense to me.
cox is a players’ manager… and he doesn’t call andruw out in the media and probably doesn’t ride him in the clubhouse.
AND he leaves him in the cleanup spot while he works through his problems (without getting help from the hitting coach… ugh). i’d want to stick with that situation too.
RBI is the most important stat to him. ok. but that’s a stat that is almost totally dependent on circumstances. with the guys getting on base ahead of him like they do, anybody hitting singles at a .250 rate would have a number of RBI as well. but it’s not like i expected andruw claim that OPS was most important to him, or for him to say that his BABIP is kinda low and so he expects to raise his batting avg a bit just based on the luck of where the balls land. anyway…
Coop,
Speaking a language is not a matter of intelligence. He could have learned them all as a child during the “sponge” stage.
I would love to see Andruw stay with the Braves. On the other hand, I would like to see Andruw sign with the White Sox and have them call him out every time he has a bad game. The guys who have been with Bobby their whole career are really spoiled. they dont know how good they have it
I think Andruw knows exactly what he is doing. The idea that Boras is the sinister Svengali manipulating Andruw is sort of silly. I didn’t think the interview showed much of anything; he said very little. Of course, he would like to stay in Atlanta for ever–if the price is right.
I think Coz has it exactly right. Sure, the Braves are still in the race, but at some point they have to start winning games.
csg-
Considering Bobby is the only manager that Gary Sheffield hasn’t attacked or hated, that right there should indicate that Bobby’s the best players manager probably in the history of the game.
As much as I and many of us complain (and rightfully so) about some of Bobby’s managing, in game, like his lineup yesterday or bad uses of the bullpen, etc. (or keeping Andruw 4th), the one thing Cox has no equal is having his players love the man.
Kind of the opposite of the Prince of Darkness over in St. Louis who seems to piss of another Cardinal, every week.
Sam, I suppose that explains the crappy grammar that we find in a lot of these posts. Since language skills are not an indicator of intelligence, I guess not being able to write a grammatical sentence in your native tongue is a sign of brillance.
we need to go on a 38-21 run to end the year to get to 92 wins
Coop,
Great point about Andruw and the languages.
Every player would love to play for Bobby Cox, hell even Gary Sheffield had good things to say about Cox.
Interesting comments about the clubhouse from Chipper. He stated that their is no music allowed in the clubhouse. Basically he and John Smoltz are in charge. Chipper takes care of the hitters and John handles the pitchers. Gary Sheffield is one of his alltime favorite teammates. He also said if a player cannot get along with John Smoltz or himself…they are not around long.
Marc; You think Andruw is really watching his words that carefully? For some reason I don’t think he is saying he would love to stay in Atlanta just to stay on good terms with people. He could have done that without being so gun ho about Atlanta.
I don’t think Boras is manipulating Andruw, but I can assure you he is going to be pressuring him to sign a deal for the most money possible. Notwithstanding where Andruw really wants to be playing. The more money the deal is for, the more money Boras gets. It just depends on how much Andruw wants to stay, whether or not he’ll tell Boras to make the deal happen.
It’s scary how much Alex R and myself think alike…
Coop: I don’t think posting on a blog where you don’t proofread the post before you hit submit is a very good measure of intelligence either. But hey, maybe that is just me.
I wonder how much Chipper and Jd got along. im guessing not much, its kind of weird to see how much production that Cox can get out of someone. JD had his best year with us
Scary for Alex, definitely.
Stu, how was the exam
One of the best stories I heard during the recent Braves-Pirates series was the fact that Adam laRoche had played a practical joke on his former teammates with their luggage recently. This shows how close Adam still is with his old teammates.
I can’t remember exactly what he did but it underscored what I had read in the Pittsburgh Post Gazette the weekned in May when my wife & I were in Pittsburgh to see friends, and see the Braves at PNC Park.
There was a column about LaRoche’s big struggles at that time and that Chipper was on the phone regularly with Adam, trying to help, even though they are not teammates anymore. The Pittsburgh columnist was extremely complimentary of Chipper and the Braves as an organization.
I think it’s one of the many things I love about guys like Chipper & Smoltz–they seem to make great teammates and just seem to be great guys to be around. I did have the pleasure of meeting both back in 95 (though I spent far more time that weekend talking to Smoltz and Glavine) and they just seemed like easy going, good guys.
My brother used to do sports for one of the Georgia newspapers, and the last 3 years or so (and my brother is a Mets fan) he says that Chipper and Smoltz are always easy going about interviews and just nice people to talk to.
One of the reasons I have always had high hopes (down the road) of Jake Peavy signing with the Braves, was that besides growinjg up in North Carolina a lifelong Braves fan, he’s also good pals with a lot of Braves players, especially Chipper. I saw the sitting together in the dugout for like every game of the World Baseball Classic last year.
It’s just a plethora of examples why people like playing in Atlanta and being around people like Smoltz, Chipper and Bobby.
(The only person who ever didn’t like it was Kenny Lofton and the only person who didn’t seem to appreciate it at all was Kyle Farnsworth.).
Stu-
Yes…but I have found stuff I can agree on at times with everyone in here. Except NY METS. Thankfully, he gone!
Things I think:
I still trust JS. One way or another, he’s going to improve this club soon.
Tex would make us dramatically better & quickly. I’m thinking ’93 McGriff.
My gut says that, if we can keep Smoltz on the mound, our starters 1-5 might be fine the rest of the way. But I wouldn’t cry if we landed another professional starting pitcher.
We’ll be playing meaningful games in late September.
This team is either tantalizingly close or a vicious tease.
Alex, here is what Roach did to them, with pictures
http://100percentinjuryrate.blogspot.com/2007/07/adam-laroche-wants-you-to-let-it-all.html
LaRoche Prank . . . The Braves bags beat them to Florida, the Pirates were still in the clubhouse. LaRoche cut everyones sliding pants . . . including Bobby Cox’s
Sorry, for the late post. Good link CSG.
Ububba:
I agree with all the things you think.
Andruw wants to be a Brave forever to the same extent that Tom Glavine did. Which is to say if the Braves pony up the money he’s looking for, he’ll be a Brave. If not, he won’t.
A good point was brought up @ DOB’s blog. If we are swept by Arizona and the Mets sweep the Gnats and we are 7-8 games out before the deadline, do we still make the trade for tex or do we pack it up and get ready for next year?
Depends on what the wildcard looked like, if that were still close we’d make the trade.
It would be easier and the “logical” choice to give up. If I was JS and I hadn’t done the trade by then, I wouldn’t.
But we don’t know if that’s going to happen, of course. That just assumes everything falls apart in Arizona.
If we are out of it, we should be looking for prospects rather than trying to “win now.” Obviously that would be silly. Maybe that’s what is holding up the deal with Texas. JS is waiting to see what happens.
i think the hold up has been which reliever texas is going to include
Stu,
Get a life…whether you want to admit or not, the majority of things I say on here have merit. I’m modest in my approach and don’t go to extremes. For example, you don’t see me on here gloating how Escobar went 2 for 3 yesterday, while KJ went 0-4 with 2Ks.
Murphy,
I’m pretty sure it’s still this:
The Rangers want to give Ron Mahay, but the Braves want CJ Wilson.
with penny having injury trouble in LA, it *seems* that they should go after pitching instead of giving up prospects for tex.
the angels could get piazza without giving up much (keeping kotchman and whatever pitcher they’d have to include) — as olney mentioned in his blog — so it *seems* that they’d have a much cheaper option than giving up a lot for tex.
it would appear as if JS’s hand is getting stronger and that he can hold out for CJ wilson insead of mahay.
but that’s just what it seems like on the surface. who knows what’s really going on and who/what all of these teams want.
Tony: I don’t mind your posts personally, and I agree with a fair amount of them. But you did gloat a little about Escobar up there.
csg,
My favorite part of the Blog you sent me was that awesome t-shirt that says, “Shawn Kemp is my Father”.
I HAVE to order one of those. Hilarious.
tony and stu, just let it go. Just avoid one another. however, why would you gloat about someone going 2-4 and the other one 0-4. hell, I want both of them to go 4-4. Just dont understand why someone would be happy that one of our players had a bad day. Doesnt make sense to me, but do whatever makes you happy. At the end of the day, we lost and that’s what frustrates me
yeah, that is awesome, buy two or three of them and give them away as gifts
JD,
I’m sure Andruw really does want to stay in Atlanta. But players tend to want to have their cake and eat it too. Everyone thinks that Boras can pressure these guys into taking deals they don’t want. I really doubt that. To get this far in professional sports, you have to be a pretty strong-willed character. If Andruw wants to play in Atlanta and wants to give them a discount, he will. The fact that he went around Boras the first shows that.
alex r — i’m not sure if the link will work, but if it does.. check out the pic of my 3 month old son watching huddy. you’ve got lots to look forward to…
http://bp2.blogger.com/_CJxFFSdUO7k/RpmjyeEqRcI/AAAAAAAAAXY/dYJqHhaeY9s/s1600-h/uh+oh.jpg
csg,
Is Mr. Swings @ Everything NY METS in disguise or something or is he just a jerk? I’m still steamed at him gloating over Julio failing.
Murphy3Ever – now that’s a true Braves fan. Nice. 🙂
Okay, that shouldn’t have been aimed at you specifically, csg, I was just pointing out another jerk because the discussion reminded me of him.
JD and CSG,
I was being sarcastic with the KJ and Esco comparison.
I just don’t understand why this Stu person can’t resist me. I leave work yesterday, come in today and see he was talking about me after I left. That’s one thing I would never do…don’t get that guy. But I will ignore.
just dont understand why a Braves fan would say, hey look at what KJ did and Escobar sucked, I told you so – or vice versa
csg,
Er… I did that yesterday with Thorman, Jones and Woodward. I said I expected them to fail.
If Arizona pounds the Braves this weekend and JS and staff decide the Braves are out of it, who can they trade for prospects?
Renteria has value, of course, and could be moved for the right package; but what other older veterans do the Braves have that could bring prospects in return that would make us better in the near future? Hudson, maybe? Kelly, Jeff, and Brian are cornerstones for the future, and Andruw, Chipper, and Smoltzie probably won’t agree to any trade.
I guess what I’m asking is this: do the Braves have assets they can move for prospects that are better than those we have already?
Only Renteria and Hudson, probably.
the yankees are trying to dump damon. i’m glad the braves aren’t interested… no matter how much of his salary they’d eat.
even if the braves get swept… they’d only be, what, 5 games out of the wild card? i don’t think you start a fire sale at that point. especially if they didn’t last year when the situation was much worse.
Are they trying to dump Damon so they can sign Andruw? 😛
sam — if it’s up to steinbrenner, i’m sure he wouldn’t mind. if it’s up to cashman, probably not.
I know Andruw inspires love/hate sentiments, but I sincerely hope he spends his career as a Brave, even if i want to whack him at times.
Coop,
I’m still sick of waiting for his bat to wake up.
Coop – I agree completely, but only if he takes a discount. He is simply not worth over-paying for at this stage of his career.
over the years andruw has not been one of my favorites (i think it might have been because of all of hte DP’s that i thought he could have beaten out). It’s been a rough year at the plate, but i still think he’s one of the greatest CF’s ever (whether he’s “overrated” is another story…). it’d be great to sign him for a few more years. but from what JS has said (in the booth for a game a few weeks back), i just don’t think it’s going to happen.
and i’d rather not see the Braves overpay for him on a long deal either.
Coop,
I don’t think there is any way we move from buyers to sellers in 4 days. We go from buyers to neutral, however.
Murphy3Ever,
Thanks for that picture–I just forwarded that to my wife. 🙂
It puts a big smile on my face.
CSG,
Relax I want BOTH to do well in a Braves uniform, unlike others.
I’d like to keep Andruw, but I just don’t think he will be worth what it will cost to sign him. I wouldn’t resign him at his current salary, much less at an increase.
If the Braves have decided that Salty is not the long term solution at 1B then he has to be traded. He’s got too much talent to ride the bench.
Same goes for Andrus. It sure looks like the Braves have pegged Escobar as the SS of the future (he’s already shown he can play 3 infield positions). With Lillibridge and Hernandez still in the minors, why keep Andrus who may never be able to hit enough at the MLB level. He’s currently at .237 in high A.
I’m fine with including these 2 in the Tex deal. I’m just not sure how far you reach in the talent pool to include a pitcher if thats what Texas is demanding.
Buyers to neutral is probably right. Just hang on to what we have and revisit in the offseason (unless someone blows us away witn an offer.)
I think we’ll all know how this shakes out Sunday. If you sit down to watch Sun. afternoon (I’ve heard it might be Skip and Pete!)and nothing has been done, then all of JS’s plans fell apart Sat. night.
At that point, we might see an 11th hour trade for Marte of Pittsburgh or something similar. “Youth and hustle” rules, because the price of poker went too high. Couldn’t be helped.
But JS won’t let it come to that, will he?
alex r … glad you liked it. my wife, instead, thinks we’re creating a monster. heh heh.
he loved his first game (he was only 4 weeks old)… giving some of his best smiles up to that point. it took some convincing, because my wife wasn’t too keen on such a long outing for the little guy, but we couldn’t pass up the chance to have his first game be smoltz’s 201st career win.
i used the baby angle to get pete moylan’s autograph.
but then smoltz hurt his shoulder warming up and moylan ended up with the loss. doh!
Alex R,
We still would be overpaying for Tex which I am not okay with. Salty, Andrus, and Harrison were all within the top 4 prospects in our system according to every evaluation list I have seen.
To put it into perspective, assume this same trade had happened in 2005. Our top 4 prospects would have been Marte, McCann, Francoeur, and Chuck James. A similar target back then might have been Delgado, but that sort of does not matter because the player would be gone by now. Remember Marte = Renteria.
Do you think the Braves would have been a better team collectively with a year and half of Delgado instead of six years of James, eight years of McCann, and three years of Renteria? I am assuming Francoeur does not get traded because I think he has always been the least likely on that list to go.
Parish,
That’s a bad argument because 1) they’re not on the same talent level and 2) we DID have LaRoche and Franco at first base at the time.
and we still have franco at 1st. ugh
Murphy,
*sigh* Not this complaining again. Look at it this way. Franco is playing like he should at 49 years of age.
Chris Woodward and Scott Thorman are playing the exact same way, which is BAD.
Parish – I don’t think we’d be overpaying for Tex (at least not as far as contract is concerned – but perhaps in the prospects it would take to get him here.) True, Tex will likely run to $11 mil with arbitration alone for 2008, but that’s effectively a one year contract. Overpaying for Andruw would not just be the salary, but the length of contract as well such that it really isn’t worth it on the back end.
sam, i know, i know… for sentimental reasons (i like julio) i’d like to see him play until he’s 50. but not everyday.
Murhy,
Unfortunately, my wife’s not a Baseball fan so she would definitely think I was creating a monster. She’s already had to stop me from hitting atlantabraves.com from buying lil’ Braves onezies.
But yes, I very much plan to use my future son as an excuse to get autographs again since I can’t really ask anymore being in my 30’s 🙂
Parish-
I would argue the Marte/Renty deal worked out well for the Braves, but we’ve had offensive issues at first base, except for the 2nd half of last season, for years now…really since the end of the Galarraga era.
Sam,
In 2005, our first base platoon did not look that good. This is just a way to try to portray what this deal could look like two and a half years from now.
Also, we don’t know if the prospects are at the same talent level. But it’s hard to imagine that its not close.
Salty versus McCann. Salty has been better than B-Mac in the minors.
Marte v. Andrus – Marte was obviously better, but he was 3-4 years older than Andrus when he was traded for Renteria.
James v. Harrison – Stats vs. scouts. James had better numbers, but scouts seem to be more impressed with Harrison. Probably has to do with flyballs.
We do not have the benefit of hindsight on this potential trade. I think looking back at what our top prospects have become might be a good way to whether it is worth a year and a half of Tex.
Why the hell are we talking about this? Do you people want to drop out of it? Do you people realize there’s still the wild card? What is the matter with everybody? There is no amount of games that we could lose and the Mets could win between now and the trade deadline to make it a good move to call off the deal. They’re just prospects. Even if we don’t make the playoffs this year we still have him next year. And why in God’s name would anyone ever give up on a season like that? Yeesh, this is getting ridiculous!
I will continue hope we do absolutely nothing in the way of trades. We cannot fix the holes in the lineup, bullpen and rotation all at once, and we will just deplete our flow of cheap young talent trying.
This is a .500 team. That fact became obscured in many people’s minds because of the hot streak at the start of the year, but it didn’t make it any less true.
I posted a trade the Expos made years ago for Bartolo Colon when they mistakenly thought they were ‘in it’. That should serve as a cautionary tale for the ‘They’re just stinking prospects’ crowd.
Coz – I was talking about the prospects. But since you mention the money. We would be saving Texas about $15M over a year and a half. That’s money they can spend elsewher and we cannot.
Inexpensive prospects are going up in value relative to expensive stars at the end of their contracts. And pitching is becoming far more valuable than hitting.
If the Braves get swept by Arizona, they’d still be 4.5 games back in the wild card with 2 months to play. They’ve come back from deficits twice that size at this point in the season in the last 16 years. No way is JS throwing in the towel over a bad weekend. This is not last year where the Braves really and truly were out of it around the deadline and the Betemit and Wickman deals probably shouldn’t have been made.
Nick – I do not think we should do that 3 for 1 deal for Tex mentioned earlier regardless of where we are in the standings (it is not worth it unless we also get another pitcher.) But certainly not if we somehow get swept this weekend while the Mets win their games. There are other moves that can be made that would be better for us long term – next year and after. If we are no longer in “win now” mode, then I see no reason why discussion of other possible trades cannot be discussed.
But all of that is up in the air. No one is giving up on the season right now (as far as I know.) Just like the trade talk about Tex, this is all speculation.
I’m about to give myself a concussion banging my head on my desk. You guys are brilliant, I swear.
First of all, even if you wind up trading away a prospect that turns into something, you can always replace him by signing a free agent or making a trade or something. On the other hand, if you keep a prospect and he turns out to not be worth shit, you’re screwed. You could’ve traded him for a good player but you kept him because he was obviously going to turn into something, and now you have nothing. Therefore, unless you have an immediate need at that prospect’s position, if you are trying to make a trade, you throw in whatever prospects are necessary to do that. Especially if they’re just at A and AA. I mean, good God! Can you people see into the future?
And why in the hell would anybody not want to improve their team? Do you realize how many teams were treading water at this point and then made a trade and it all of a sudden bumped them over the edge? You don’t think that if we traded for Tex, at the very least the team would get an emotional bump and quite likely, a huge lineup boost as well? But oh well, this is a .500 team and there’s nothing we can do about it. Let’s not do anything and wind up the same freaking team next year.
Even if we fall out of it, we still need a quality first baseman for next year. Salty is blocked by McCann. It makes more sense to trade him for Texeira than to keep him riding the pine.
Smoltz only has another year or two left before retirement, so this year and next year are times to pull out all the stops and try to win it all. Once Smoltz is gone, it may be a long time before the Braves are a playoff caliber team again. They should try to win now rather than holding onto low level prospects like Andrus and Harrison who may never pan out at the major league level.
Why would we not still be in “win now” mode? In fact, why would we ever be out of “win now” mode? Especially if my team is over .500, I’m in “win now” mode.
Exactly, Ron! Hooray! Somebody gets it!
First of all, even if you wind up trading away a prospect that turns into something, you can always replace him by signing a free agent or making a trade or something.
I think you may have banged your head too hard. Free agents are expensive, that’s why we don’t sign them anymore. Your post essentially says that if you trade away a good prospect, you can replace his production by signing a guy for ten times the cost. That may work for the big boys but we can’t do that anymore. Trades are hard to make as we are seeing right now. The easiest, most cost effective way to build a team is through the farm system.
If we were close to being a championship level team than sure go for it. But our struggles against the dregs of the National League show we are not that close.
Nick,
How dare you spew LOGIC.
But at the risk of offending you Robert, which i know I seem to do all the time, you talk about this mediocre team with no chance.
Do we again have to point out the 2006 St. Louis Cardinals as an example of why you don’t give up?
Honestly, at the all star break last year (look it up), the Cards were undecided about being buyers or sellers. Hell, we’re in a better position then that being 4 gms. back of the Mets and 1.5 out of the WC–if we have the chance to buy a 27 year old offensive superstar at a position that is a gaping, festering black hole (first base), and you don’t do it, then you’re nuts.
I mean, how can any of us be 100% sure that Andrus will be signifigantly better then Marte.
Even Mac, who we all agree we respect in here for his knowledge (and I have known him the longest so I can vouch for his Braves knowledge) was wrong on Marte.
mark teixeira is a 27 year old All Star and a known commodity at his peak of ability. he’s great defensively as well. There’s nothing not to like–plus, we get him next year as well.
That’s a good deal. A very good deal for the Braves.
You always trade prospects for great talent.
Do we again have to point out the 2006 St. Louis Cardinals as an example of why you don’t give up?
Someone won the lottery last week. That’s not a plan.
Nick, despite the fact that by your own admission you are clearly more intelligent than I, you seem to be failing to recognize the opportunity cost of trading a prospect.
I am arguing that we are overpaying for Tex by giving up three of our top four prospects. I am not against trading top prospects, but to package them all for one player is reckless in my opinion. In the past we have been able to trade a single top prospect with a supporting cast for a star player. Marte for Renteria. Dan Meyer for Tim Hudson. Capellan for Kolbb.
If Texas wants triple the price for their talent than others wants, then by dealing with them we cost ourselves the opportunity to fill two more holes (which this team has).
No, the 2006 Cardinals proved to me that there is a lot of parity in Baseball and that any team with some very good parts (despite having some weaknesses) can get hot and win it all.
Plus, as I said earlier, Mark Teixeira would INSTANTLY be one of our 3 best hitters–along with Rentaria (who no one on Braves Journal wanted!!!!!!!!!!!!!) and Chipper.
Additionally, trading away inexpensive prospects that can play for years at league minimum does not increase the ability of a team with a limited payroll to acquire free agents. Quite the contrary.
We are more likely to be able to replace the expensive guy with a free agent rather than the three players we traded for him. We actually need to be able to fill positions with those three inexpensive players so we can afford the one free agent.
Which of these three deals is not like the others:
“In the past we have been able to trade a single top prospect with a supporting cast for a star player. Marte for Renteria. Dan Meyer for Tim Hudson. Capellan for Kolbb.”
Look, the bottom line in here is that there’s a group of us (including Ron, Nick, myself, others) who feel we can get a star player to give us 2 legit W.S. chances this year and next, and there are others in here who would rather not do the deal, pass up on a 27 year old superstar in his prime, and HOPE that all these prospects we are hoarding work out.
I will choose my side every time–to quote Herman Edwards, “you play to win the game!”
Two out of three ain’t bad. They can’t all be homeruns.
The 2006 Cardinals proved to me that the National League sucks and the Tigers achllies heel is pitcher’s fielding.
Seriously the Cards won because Jeff Suppan and Jeff frickin’ Weaver became unhittable for a few weeks. It was the fluke of flukes, and should not be anybody’s idea of a plan.
Alex. R,
Especially when two of the prospects have top notch all star players ahead of them in Salty and Elvis. No reason to hold on to Salty with McCann behind the plate. Trade him while his value is high.
We have Renteria, Escobar at SS for the future. We can trade both IF we can get a player like Tex in return.
Agreed, unknown.
Robert,
The point is to win the world series, not look pretty doing it.
Last year, the Tigers were the far better and prettier team; the ugly Cardinals crawled out of a weaker NL, got to the W.S. (where at that point, you are only facing one AL team, not all 4) and got hot & won.
If the Braves were to win the 2007 W.S., ugly and with holes on the team, are you going to be an less happy? No, you & I may disagree on things but we’re both BRAVES fans and would be happy to see our Braves win it all, whatever 25 guys are on the field.
I just want the Braves to win it all, and I don’t care which guys JS and Bobby put on the field to do it.
I do know that getting a superstar the calibre of Mark Teixeira helps us achieve that goal, far more likely then not having Teixeira.
Cleveland is about to trade our Max Ramirez for Kenny Lofton
Smoltz and Hudson could easily duplicate what Suppan and Weaver did last year. But you have to get into the playoffs first to find out. That’s not happening with a 3 headed platoon of Franco-Thorman-Salty at 1B.
It looks like Satly, Elvis, and Harrison for Tex and no pitcher.
The ’02 Expos were in a unique ownership position and run by a GM who had little incentive to look long-term. Also, there are plenty of examples of “valuable prospects” (who became nothing special) that were traded for stars. It’s the chance you take. Could work either way.
In my mind, the ’06 Cardinals proved that baseball is almost now like hockey—just get into the post-season & take your chances. The way the system is set up now, we’re bound to see a few more “flukes” along the way.
I like Hudson & Smoltz better than Weaver & Suppan, anyway. Count me in the win-now group.
If the Braves were to win the 2007 W.S., ugly and with holes on the team, are you going to be an less happy?
It’s all about cost. The chances of us winning a World Series with current team is a smidge above zero. Getting Tex, would increase that from ‘practically zero’ to ‘unlikely but not impossible’. That is an upgrade no doubt, but if it costs a ton – I’ll pass. Now if it changed the equation from ‘we have a chance’ to ‘the odds on favorite’ then you do the deal. That’s not where we are.
I will admit that having a firstbaseman who hit like a firstbaseman would be a nice change. Superstar is obviously too strong as he’s made one All-Star game in five years but he’s pretty good, although some of it is his homepark.
Saltalamacchia is blocked at catcher and not playing first.
Andrus has Escobar and Lillibridge in front of him and he’s in A-ball.
Harrison…who really knows?
Hardly the “future is DOOMED” trade some people make it out to be.
I should also say that I would understand why JS and/or Bobby would go for this trade as they are unlikely to be around to enjoy what Salty and Andrus will provide to whomever employs them.
It’s a little irresponsible but they’ve earned some grace over the years.
I would rather we not trade any of our pitching prospects just because we have no depth at that position for the near future. However, when you can trade your prospects for All star players, you have to do that
I don’t disagree with the stance that we trade prospect for sure things – but look at the position the ’07 Cardinals are in. They traded Mulder for Calero, Haren, and (his name escapes me, the 1st base prospect). All of those guys could have helped the current Cardinals, where as Mulder has been almost a complete wash since arriving in STL.
I’m not saying we don’t do the deal for Tex – because I trust JS and know he won’t do anything to negate the team past his retirement, but to ignore the possibility we could be screwing ourselves is childish.
My barber says the hold up on the deal is that the Rangers want JS to throw me in to get Millwood’s lackey. Smoltzy is very reluctant to let me go. He says I am the straw the stirs the drink, litterally.
Alex R,
The fact that Kolbb is on that list may point out that sometimes the “established” player you are acquiring does not work out.
Alex R,
I also want to point out that you are oversimplifying the point of contention. I am arguing that we should not spend $100 for something which should cost $40. I am not arguing whether or not we should spend our $100.
The Braves aren’t going to start dumping players because there is no need, especially if Liberty is actually going to increase payroll. The Braves already have lots of prospects–they aren’t the Giants. And I don’t see the logic of trading Renteria, who is only 32 and hitting .330 unless you got a huge return. It’s not like he is 40 and is going to fall apart tomorrow.
I think if the Braves fall out of contention (which I don’t see happening, at least mathematically given how weak the NL is), I think they would look for trades that would improve the team now and in the future. They are going to have to get a first baseman and probably an SP; that most likely means trading prospects. So, one way or the other, they are going to have to trade prospects. It makes no sense for the Braves to stockpile prospects because they already have too many pieces in place to be looking at 3 or 4 years down the road.
As for the Tex trade, it’s a fine line, but I can’t recall any Braves prospects that were traded and really came back to haunt the team. Maybe Wainwright will eventually but that’s still up in the air. I DO NOT believe that JS will give away the store to get Teixera. If he trades Salty, it will be because he thinks this is the best value he can get. Same for the other prospects. I seriously doubt he would trade someone he really thinks is the real deal. By the same token, you can’t just keep looking down the road. At some point, you have to make moves to improve the team you expect to have this year or next year.
205 – I heard that too. It’s almost like Cleveland traded Bob Wickman for Kenny Lofton.
Interestingly the Rangers already have a pretty good catcher in A+, Taylor Teagarden. They’ll be loaded at C if they add Salty, in addition to Ramirez.
I surely hope that Escobar is not the future for this team at shortstop. If so, welcome to watching a below average hitter at shortstop for six long years.
Robert,
First, Tex has only made one all star team as the AL is loaded with all star first basemen. Not making the all star team every year isn’t reflective of the kinds of numbers he’s putting up.
Second, how can you give this team no chance? Gee, I thought I used to be a downtrodden, glass half empty Braves fan, but that’s really fatalistic.
If we make the trade, we have a lineup that includes Rentaria, Teixeira, Chipper, McCann, Francouer, KJ, Escobar, Diaz, etc—hardly a “roll over and die” offense, and more like one of the top 2 or 3 NL offenses.
Our starting pitching will still have Huddy and Smoltz, who can match any 1-2 in the NL. I love Jake Peavy and Chris Young, I love Brad Penny, Glavine can still be great…but with Smoltz and Huddy healthy, why can’t our guys match?
Overall, since the removal of Kyle Davies (thank God) from the rotation, the 3-4-5 guys have been extremely effective overall—Chuck James, Carlyle and Jo Jo. Yes, Carlyle was pedestrianj last night but he’s been pretty darn good.
The bullpen is the weakest area, but we will likely add a pitcher from Texas and maybe JS pulls off another smaller deal to add an extra arm. I still think Wickman and Soriano can come back and pitch better, and Moylan and Villareal have both looked solid. The pen isn’t dead.
I don’t see how the roster I just mentioned is so much worse then the Padres (no offense), the Dodgers (injuries galore to pitchign staff), the Mets (questionable starting pitching), the Phils (who just lost Chase Utley and have just 1 reliable starter in Hamels) the Cubs (2 good starters, some offensive holes as well) or the Brewers (who just lost ben Sheets.
Plus, the Braves won the season series with San Diego and L.A. (two teams you seem to have said are signifigantly better?) and lead the Milwaukee season series. We also lead the Mets season series.
So, I am not buying that the Braves aren’t right there with all possible NL contenders, that’s ludicrous.
Plus, if we add Tex, that’s a huge pieace to an offense that’s been solid at times, and will now be a whole lot better.
Sorry, count me out of the doom & gloom crowd…if we get Tex, we can abso-friggin-lutely compete with anyone in the National League and have a shot to win it all.
(his name escapes me, the 1st base prospect)
That would be Daric Barton. Hasn’t turned 22 yet and is tuning up AAA at a .314/.406/.475 clip. Hasn’t quite developed the power for a 1B yet, but he’s still really young. Obviously the Cards would like that one back.
try to look at it financially also. how many more fans would come to Atl to watch this team with Tex in the lineup for the next two years and how much merchandise would that sell. Appears to me there should be a lot of motivation behind this deal, not to mention how much excitement it could bring to our players to have another top notch player on the field everyday
Taylor Teagarden is the least major-league sounding name I have ever heard. Sounds like a designer on HGTV.
Tea-bag, how’s that for a nickname
count me in for getting tex. i’m hoping that the bids for him will drop in the next couple of days so that the braves can get cj wilson as well.
if not… i’d go after marte. nothing too exciting, but a good LOOGY for the pen.
As a fan of the series, “Prison Break”, I think I might avoid giving a player a nickname like “Tea Bag”.
Yeah, the NL sucks. I didn’t need 12 paragraphs on it. If we made the playoffs we would have about a 25% chance of making the WS. Four sucky teams battling it out for the honor of playing an actual elite team in the WS. There is of course a small chance the NL rep could pull another upset. So, a 25% chance to make the series and small chance to pull an upset. I’ll stand behind my ‘unlikely but not impossible’ evaluation.
All that is with Tex, without him I sticking with ‘essentially zero’. We just got swept by the Reds.
Good..I am glad you don’t need 12 paragraphs on how mediocre the NL is. But a little upbeat feeling for your team about its chances isn’t the worst thing ever, Robert.
One trade isn’t going to make anyone the odds-on favorite. In fact, as Alex and others point out, there is no odd-on favorite once the playoffs start. It’s a crap shoot. But I agree with Robert (straddling the fence squarely) that you can’t use the Cardinals as a reference point. There will surely be upsets in the future, but the better teams will still win most of the time. The question is, does Teixera improve the Braves enough to make them a reasonable prospect to at least get through the NL? I have no idea, but I do know (or strongly suspect) that if JS makes no moves, this team is going nowhere.
It is interesting how some only read what they assume someone is saying. Personally, I fully advocate getting Tex and have for days. Further, I am perfectly fine with including Salty in the deal, and any other prospect we can find to get the deal done as long as the trade is fair to the Braves – which includes a pitcher coming our way as well.
What I do not condone is “trading the store” to “win now” when it may not be a reasonable assumption. Like I mentioned above – the Braves would have to win every single three game series and at least tie the four game series just to get close to 90 wins. I am not saying thats impossible, but any clear-minded individual must admit that the way the team is structured now does not give them a great chance at doing that. With Tex it might…I repeat, it MIGHT. And if a trade is fair enough for us, I’d love to take that chance.
But if we are looking less like a WS team and more like a team that, if built well, could contend next year instead of this year, what is the harm of using that stud prospect for perhaps a younger starting pitcher that may not be helpful this year, but certainly would next? Same for any other players that could hep us next or any year after.
Point being – let’s stop assuming just because someone says something even mildly negative about a player, the team or anything else that it surely must mean they hate the Braves, wish them to lose or have given up all hope. I don’t think there is a person posting on this blog that doesn’t want the Braves to win and win now and next year and the year after. That doesn’t mean we cannot have differences of how to accomplish that.
the Mets need a 2B. JS should mork his magic and trade his son to them for Wagner and Glavine. that would be a good loogy for us
You guys, it’s still about opportunity cost. What if we could get Roy Oswalt for the same three guys or even two of the three? Isn’t he signed for like 4 years?
What if we could get Ian Snell, Damaso Marte, and Dmitri Young with us giving up the same three players?
I just don’t think you trade that many top prospects for one guy you get for only a year plus.
i don’t think oswalt is available.
i can’t believe snell is available.
i’d like to pick up marte if he’s cheap.
i think the nats wanted too much for dmitri young (thank goodness).
I wonder what the astros would want for Berkman
Coz – @ 230
I’m right with you man.
I wouldn’t be heartbroken if we made that trade, but at the same time it strikes me as odd that we’d put three players together for anyone but a pitcher.
Tex will look good in the line-up, don’t get me wrong, but I hope JS can work his magic and get Snell for Woodward or something. This trade seems to be our “big trade” of the year and its (I hope you agree) insufficient.
I just don’t think you trade that many top prospects for one guy you get for only a year plus.
That’s one of the disadvantages we have against the Mets right now. The Mets could make this deal and say “we get him for a year and a half, and if we like what we see we’ll resign him”. We say “we get him for a year and a half and then we get some draft picks”. That’s changes your evaluation of things. Tex is, of course, another Boras client.
Again FWIW, I was listenting to The Dan Patrick Sh…oops, I mean ESPN Radio on my way back from lunch and Buster Olney was on and said that he too thought we would eventually get this Tex deal done.
If Tex’s contract was up this year, I would be against the deal and JS wouldn’t even consider it.
But the fact that we get him for all of 2008, likely the last year for Smoltz, Cox and JS in Atlanta, it’s a big incentive to bring in an all star 27 yr. old first baseman, even if SATAN is his agent.
And don’t get me wrong–Scott BorASS is SATAN. he’s the single biggest ruiner of the sport the last 15 years. That includes Bud or Bonds or McGwire.
Everyone is forgetting also that we’re likely to have our payroll raised…by as much as $20 million a year possibly, according to DOB. I don’t think anyone can know how likely it is that we would re-sign Teixeira. It seems like everyone’s soul has been crushed by our payroll constraints of the last few years and so now whenever we talk about signing someone, everyone always says, “Nope, can’t sign him. Too much payroll” like a robot or something. If our payroll goes up to $100 million, we will be able to start dabbling in the free agent market again.
Anyone really regret not dumping Hudson to free up the money to sign Glavine this past offseason?
Man, that Mets slide earlier this summer would have been even worse without Glavine. Who knows who they would have tried to replace him with.
Smoltz has options for 2009 and 2010. Next year may not be his last.
If you knew Teixeira would be extended, would the people opposed to this trade still be opposed?
If we are swept by Arizona and the Mets sweep the Gnats and we are 7-8 games out before the deadline, do we still make the trade for tex
Yeah, you still make the trade. At that point you got to start thinking about 2008. Teixeira would be a nice bat to replace Andruw Jones.
Nick,
Great point (again). I have been a robot like everyone else about the way AOL Time Warner has crushed all of our spirits the last few years; if Liberty actually shocked the hell out of us and allowed payroll to go back up, then (gasp!) we might actually keep Teixeira and Andruw.
Or at least replace one of them with a frontline starter. Not too shabby either way.
If you knew Teixeira would be extended, would the people opposed to this trade still be opposed?
Not me.
Alex,
Just exactly how has Boras ruined the sport over the last 15 years? You mean the record attendence? The different WS champions the last seven years (none of them the Yankees)? The increasing revenue from cable and internet? If that’s ruining the sport, give me more of it.
I’m fairly certain that I’m so fed up with Andruw at this point that I wouldn’t want to re-sign him even if we had the Yankees’ payroll. But yeah, if we have a big enough increase, we could both extend Tex and sign whatever else we need (likely a starter) over the offseason. Plus, even if we don’t have a huge increase, I would think we could at least replace Andruw’s contract with Tex’s or the aforementioned starter’s…one or the other.
Either way, I really don’t see the “we have no chance of re-signing him” logic.
Funny story…I lost my cellphone on the train this morning. So figuring it was gone forever, I called and had another one sent out. Well I just called the phone again before I had services suspended and this guy answers. I tell him he has my phone and he tells me he brought the phone for $20 from some guy off the street. In disbelief I ask him well why is it charged? “Oh I brought a charger for it”. Ladies and Gentleman…that is Washington, DC in a nutshell.
Scott Boras maybe satan, but if I was player….guess who would be my agent. How he got Boston to pay J.D Drew the kind of money he is getting…is ridiculous. Damn who doesn’t he represent.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clients_of_Scott_Boras
Honestly, you people are still on Andruw Jones? After this season? Let him go.
Braves get Diamondbacks, Mets get Nationals. Perfect.
Tony,
I also use the Metro here in Washington and bought myself a (treat) fantastic briefcase by Briggs & Riley that has this awesome little hidden pocket near the handles where you can shove everything—keys, wallet, cell phone, blackberry (yes, I have both, kind of exhausting), metro card, etc.
Knowing myself, I tend to accidentally leave stuff all the time but this briefcase with the great little pocket is the guy’s answer to not having a purse. Just a suggestion.
If I was a player, I would go with a good agent who got me a great deal, but would not go with a guy with the reputation of Boras. I guess I would actually care how fans perceived me and I always have lesser opinions of BorASS clients then anyone else. Same with that slimebag Rosenhaus in the NFL.
I look at what pro athletes and say to myself…”when is enough, enough?”. If I have a nice house and two cars that are all paid off, could pay for my kids college in advance, and have the ability for a nice vacation each year, that would be a dream come true for me–and wouldn’t need anything beyond that.
Once after a Chemical Brothers show a few years ago, I was taking the Long Island Railroad train back to L.I. and this loopy raver guy sitting nearby exited the train before me & left his cell phone.
I went through the list of phone numbers until I found “Mom” and called her, gave her a number for son to call the next day & retrieve his phone.
He met me after work at an Irish pub and asked how much I wanted for finding the phone. I told him, “Buy me a beer and we’re even.” He couldn’t believe it & we hung out a little. When he was ready to leave, he hit the men’s room, leaving the phone on the bar.
Of course, I hid it from him. He acted real nervous, until he confessed, “I can’t believe this! I lost my phone again!”
I gave him a faux speech on how some people really shouldn’t drink and how he might want to make some lifestyle decisions, etc.
Finally, I just couldn’t torture the kid anymore. I gave him the phone & just said, “C’mon now, get out of here before I steal your car, too.”
Alex – But if the baseball club itself is pulling in the dough, isn’t that due to the players? And if that is the case, then don’t they deserve to ask for as much of that change as possible? Realize that I am fed up with high players salaries as well, but it’s hard for me to fault the players who are the ones putting fans in the seats and eyes on the TV that allows these clubs to make the kind of money they do (and trust me – none of them are “losing” money.)
What I’d rather see is a Major League Club announce that a certain of their proceeds will be going towards charitable endeavors and/or reviving certain sections of town (like around the stadium here in Atlanta.) If clubs were honest about how much they were making, and then giving away a solid portion of that (with the tax breaks that come with it) then I don’t think a player could complain about being “lowballed” or “disrespected.” The club merely says, “Sorry…this is what is left over to pay the players.”
It’s a start but an agent (Boras or not) is only trying to get their client a contract worth their talent and what they bring to the table. I’m not a big fan of Boras, but I can’t really complain about what he does. That’s his job and he is the best at it.
ububba,
That’s both hilarious and a bit cruel–great story 🙂
But yes, when I left my phone once on a flight to L.A. last August, the airlines called my mother since I don’t have my wife listed as “wife”.
Of course, if someone calls my mother, I have to hear about it for WEEKS.
Scott BorASS is good at being an agent like ted Bundy was good at picking up women & killing them. That is definitely true.
LOL…wow.
Alex..
That’s the sad part…I have a briefcase that I normally keep my laptop and phone in….but today I was running my moutt pretty sure pissing the other passengers off.
Ububba..
That was funny…I guess I will give the guy the $20 he paid for the phone b/c I know he never see the guy who sold it to him.
Well, with the Rangers getting Max Ramirez for Lofton, I don’t think they’ll move Teixiera for a Salty package. They must be looking at a different non-catcher package from someone else or else are planning on keeping Tex
Taylor Teagarden is a terrible name, hahaha.
If you get worried when you hear the asking price for Teixeira (like I do), just picture JS against Jon Daniels. There is no way JS loses . Daniels is a joke.
Nevin, no. There is no way the Rangers see Max Ramirez as their future catcher.
Who is the Rangers’ starting catcher?
Alex,
In the words of Monty Python, I’m cruel, but fair.
They don’t have a catcher, just one of those pitch back things.
At least you didn’t nail the cellphone to his head, ububba. 😉
Yeah, their starting catcher is apparently some guy named Gerald Laird. Hilariously, I’ve actually heard of their backup catcher (Adam Melhuse) but haven’t heard of Laird. So yeah, they really need Salty. Max Ramirez ain’t gonna help that. They probably got him because they have absolutely no catching prospects anywhere.
Exactly. Getting Ramirez doesn’t mean our trade is dead. Texas just took advantage of Cleveland’s stupidity.
the Braves website says our starters for this series are
Jo Jo
Smoltz
TBA
why would we not have Hudson going then?
Incidentally, if Reyes is included in this trade, it’s pretty obviously not happening today.
One thing that I think is over looked in the trade talk is why hasn’t there been some movement before now? We have seen the writing on the wall at 1B for months now. It would have been nice to upgrade this position weeks ago. We’ve blown a good opportunity to pick up a few games with this 7-7 strecth against medicore teams after the break. Certainly a player of Texeria’s calibre may have swung a few games to our side. I can see why we haven’t made any pitching moves, because the only thing that is available is garbage. However, we could have addressed 1B and probably the bench weeks ago.
I’ve been out of the office all day and then when I get back and check in to this site I am met with doom and gloom. Seriously, Where the heck did this whole “What if we get swept this weekend” stuff come from? What if JS trades for Danny Kolb and he becomes the all time saves leader? Please stop a moment and recall this time last year. WE SUCKED!!! Well this year we are right in the thick of the race and if we can make a bold move, this could prove to be real exciting. Personally I am excited about the last 2 months of the season and at this point am not going to be Mr. Pessimist.
Ububba, that’s a fantastic story. The next time I’m in New York, I’d love to get a beer with you.
What’s your email?
Well, either Hudson has a super secret injury or someone at MLB.com is a moron and forgot to update the thing.
Yeah, it kind of floored me too, Josh.
Fuck this. I hope we sign Chris Jericho.
JoshQ,
The doom and gloom is because of the frustration in the past two weeks.
Josh, you asked, “Where the heck did this whole “What if we get swept this weekend” stuff come from? ”
Someone asked the question upthread as a hypothetical.
And it took a life of its own, and here we are, thinking that even with Teixeira, we have no hope of making the playoffs.
Baseball teams should be required to fund civic projects when ExxonMobil has to as well. I don’t see why sports teams (and players) are held to some higher standard of behavior than corporations and CEOs who make a lot more money, have much more effect on more people, and who are able, in many cases, to manipulate the laws to their advantage. No player or agent does that. In fact, unlike CEOs, who can run their companies into the ground and then take golden parachutes, players actually have to earn their pay to get another paycheck. And, Alex, I understand your point about enough being enough and I agree, but, let’s face it, greed isn’t exactly unique to athletes. Obviously, the general public has a greater emotional stake in athletes, but they are no different than any other highly paid person.
Sam – who said we have no hope of making the playoffs even with Tex? In fact, who even suggested we had no hope to make the playoffs without him? I don’t recall reading that.
csg,
To answer your earlier question, I’m not too optimistic about my performance. I think I did fine on the TN essays, but the multistate multiple choice portion absolutely tore me a new one.
AAR,
ububba would also be at or near the top of the list of people on this board with whom I’d like to get a drink.
Sam,
Just so we’re clear, doom and gloom about the whole team is now acceptable, doom and gloom about players like Thorman and Woodward is always acceptable, but doom and gloom about Julio Mendoza is always and completely unacceptable?
joshtothemaxx,
I like your style.
I inferred it from the attitude, and especially the “we’ll have to win two of three to even have a chance” idea.
Stu,
You can go ahead and criticize Julio all you want. I got defensive about Julio earlier. How about I still like him and you can wish he was off the team.
Oh, and I think my Teix feelings are generally along the lines of those expressed by fellow Commodore Parish.
For me, it’s really the proposed inclusion of Andrus that seems like a bad idea. Harrison I could take or leave,
I still like him too, but he plays more and more like he is 50 and that is the problem.
Folks, we have 60 games left. Lots can happen. It’s probably going down to the wire. Enjoy it.
Sam – you inferring something doesn’t mean it was said. And that statement was – “I hate to be so doom and gloom this morning, but I was doing some figuring and it looks like the Braves need to go 36-23 the rest of the way just to win 90 games (which doesn’t guarantee a playoff spot but makes it more likely.) If they win every 3 game series 2-1 the rest of the year and split every 4 game series, they’ll have 21 losses already. Point being – things are tight.”
I simply look at things realistically. My point above is clear – things are tight right now and we need to either shit or get off the pot. If we want to contend this year, we cannot continue to play .500 ball against sub-.500 teams.
As I said when the Braves signed him, I can excuse anything Julio does because I don’t expect him to play that well. Maybe that’s just me.
As far as tex goes, I just need some resolution. I’m exhausted by the whole thing.
The way I see it, he’s taking up a roster spot that could be used better.
Has anyone thrown out Eric Byrnes as a replacement for Druw? He may be out of our price range, but I like that guy.
Also, our performance agains the Reds, Giants, and Cardinals has been terrible. The team squandered an opportunity to pick up the games, but I like our chances against NL East teams.
Then it’s clear to me that getting Teixeira will most certainly increase the chance that we won’t be playing .500 ball against sub-.500 teams.
braves14,
But how much better? The people most likely to replace him are Martin Prado and Pete Orr, and they haven’t done squat.
With Smoltz and presumably Hudson going this weekend, we should have a good chance to take the series, assuming we can score.
Julio’s replacement level at best. It’s not hard to find a better player.
I like Julio, too, and was on your side of the excitement line when he was signed. I didn’t think he’d be starting 5 of 7 games or whatever it’s been.
Really, I just find your selective impermissible complaining attitude amusing.
Yahoo says Hudson:
Fri, Jul 27 9:40 pm EDT Y. Petit vs. J. Reyes
Sat, Jul 28 3:55 pm EDT D. Davis vs. J. Smoltz
Sun, Jul 29 4:40 pm EDT L. Hernández vs. T. Hudson
I’m not meaning this to be confrontational, but I’m genuinely curious. What exactly is it about Elvis Andrus that makes him so can’t-miss that we can’t afford to give him up for something that is a sure thing. And for those of you who think the same thing about Harrison, same question. Why is this guy who’s struggling in Class A so important to our future that we can’t give him up for an All-Star first baseman?
Well, I didn’t think he’d be starting 5 of 7 games either. I thought that the signing would have been the avenue for Saltalamacchia to start at first base because he would have someone who could help him with it directly. But when I found out that wasn’t the case, and then I found out that Julio was starting a lot, a lot of things came crashing down at once, and I perceived people here as blaming Julio for our problems. THAT’S why I got defensive about him.
Then it’s clear to me that getting Teixeira will most certainly increase the chance that we won’t be playing .500 ball against sub-.500 teams.
I hope so, Sam…I truly do. The first step towards finding out would be to get the guy. It needs to happen soon.
Nick,
I’m wondering the same thing. I’ve never heard anything that special about Andrus except flowery prose.
Yes, but our performance against crappy teams like the Reds, Giants & Cardinals is exactly why we need an impact offensive player.
Scoring 2 runs in abck to back games against a bad Giants team is downright inexcusable. I find it hard to believe that Tex (oh, and RENTARIA, BOBBY) don’t change the equation a bit.
Add me to the list of people who would not just have that drink, but treat for a couple of rounds if I hit NYC soon and meet ububba. Stu, I think we’ve at least gotten to the point where I might pay for a Sprite for you 😉
I don’t understand why Salty has been riding the pine for useless players lately, but the Braves are probably trying to hide his slump to keep his value up.
Braves14…we also miss Brandon Webb this weekend, which is a plus. With our two aces going, and their’s resting, we SHOULD take the series, but honestly who knows. Knowing this team, they will sweep the Backs renewing everyone’s optimism, and then come home and
slop it around against the Astros.
they don’t want the trade chip to get hurt
Or to keep him from getting injured.
Blast! You win this round, Murph.
It’s nice to miss Brandon Webb, but I know we will make one of them look like an ACE.
Again, it’s opportunity cost. I have no idea whether Andrus will pan out or not—though you should of course keep in mind that he’s still younger than everyone against whom he’s playing—but I do know that he’s highly regarded as a prospect around the league. Seems to me we should be hesitant to give up three of our most valuable (including our two most valuable) trading commodities for one player. We could get three useful players in three separate deals for those guys, which, IMO, would be more valuable than Teix.
Well if you believe Peanut, Andrus is the next Jeter.
http://atlanta.braves.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20070708&content_id=2076238&vkey=news_atl&fext=.jsp&c_id=atl
304/305 — Probably true.
they dont want to risk injury, just in case we canmove him. If he’s not gone by Tuesday I expect to see at 1st most of the time
Dan,
That’s what I mean by flowery prose.
There’s some hyping up a prospect right there.
yep Edgar said that Escobar reminded him of Pujols. All you can do is laugh at comparisons. they mean nothing
Aybar was probably compared to someone until he went AWOL. you never know
csg – I think you are absolutely right about Salty if he’s not traded. Better late than never, I always say. 😉
Peanut is just a pawn in JS’s well oiled propaganda machine, though I do like Andrus.
A young talented player and eager speculation and imagination can make a player look like someone special.
Also, a point that hasn’t really been made that I’ve seen is that we currently have four shortstops to choose from over the next couple years. Surely we can afford to get rid of one of them. And I don’t think there’s any way of knowing which will be better between Lillibridge and Andrus.
Stu,
Anytime. And you never know when I’ll need a lawyer. 😉
AAR,
Click on my forum name, when the next page comes up, click on Masthead, when that page comes up, my name’s the one at the top & you can email me from there.
Speaking of beers, I just found out that my very favorite Irish pub (Rocky Sullivan’s on Lex & 29th) is closing Tuesday. It’s where Shane MacGowan & Joe Strummer used to drink & it has one of NYC’s great jukeboxes. Right now, I’m fairly inconsolable.
The rent doubled & they’re moving to Red Hook. Guess I know where I’m going after the Tuesday-night Yankees game.
Damn getting bombarded with work….messing with my bravesjournal time.
Nick – I am right there with you on that score. We are dealing from a position of strength at that position, no doubt about it.
Precisely, just like catcher when we had both Saltalamacchia and Ramirez.
Basically, I’m not going to shed a single tear if Andrus has to go in a trade.
Several executives believe the Rangers have an acceptable package for Mark Teixeira with the Braves in place – centered around switch-hitting catcher Jarrod Saltalamacchia – and are just waiting to see if another club (the Angels and maybe the Dodgers) will do better before Tuesday’s deadline.
http://www.nypost.com/seven/07272007/sports/mets/looking_for_some_relief_mets_joel_sherman.htm?page=0
I don’t think too many people are concerned with who actually goes in the trade as much as they are concerned we get enough back. Tex alone for Salty, Andrus and Harrison is steep. In fact, I think too steep. I have confidence that JS will get that pitcher too, but some of the reports have me a little nervous.
sam, me neither… he’s too far away to get too worried.
that having been said, with all of that MI depth, couldn’t we move escobar? maybe i’m just not seeing what the organization is…
JS can’t make the Rangers trade. I’m sure Daniels is going to wait until the last minute. What has he got to lose by waiting to see who might panic?
To me, the Braves are no better this year than last year but they did avoid the 10 game losing streak. And the Mets obviously aren’t as good. Pessimism comes from watching the team play .500 ball for almost 100 games. Yes, I am pessimistic about their chances unless they get help.
is chipper playing tonight? any official word?
I think JS probably has a good read on this trade and if Daniels makes him keep waiting we might pull our offer. JS has to make some moves and he knows that. I doubt he waits around till the last minute
hmmm… the lofton for ramirez deal did go down.
i wonder if texas will want to make saltalamacchia into a 1B as well. i’ve read that a number of people don’t see him as a catcher long term.
I think the worst thing that could happen is that JS would have to settle for Ron Mahay. I don’t think anyone can beat the Braves’ offer, and for some reason, CJ Wilson is untouchable. Why?
Probably the longer Daniels holds out, the better shape JS is in, because he does have to make other deals, Im sure we are gonna get a reliever, maybe a guy for the bench that no one has thought of yet, and maybe a starter, sadly for texas, if they keep holding, JS will keep Salty and Andrus and everyone else and move on, and Texas will have Tex for one more year and not be too happy about it either
For the umpteenth time, Max Ramirez is not a major-league starting catcher. They still need Salty.
C.J. Wilson is viewed as the Rangers’ future closer.
Maybe we can send them Devine instead. 😉
Well, we’re giving them a future catcher, future shortstop and future pitcher. It’s entirely fair that we get someone else with potential too.
I think this guy in texas is playing poker saying everyone is untouchable, at this point i wouldnt mind JS pulling out and going after other peices, there are many things we could do, upgrade 1st get an arm for the rotation get an arm or two for the pen, and get a peice for the bench, help in many areas maybe that pushes us over the top?
So we were thinking that Daniels being a moron might play into our favor. But perhaps it’s working just the opposite.
I definitely believe JS has an advantage as we get closer to the deadline. JS can make some other moves and ultimately maintain the price is too steep for Teixeira towards the end, but Daniels seems to have put himself in a place where he definitely wants to trade Teixeira. Basically I think Daniels feels the pressure to make a deal based on his past performance and the fact Teixeira has a strained relationship with the Rangers.
nick… thanks for making it umpteen +1. i didn’t know how far away ramirez is.
Some other teams of bullpen help available – Astros for instance (Lidge, Qualls, Wheeler). Could JS send Salty for Tex straight up and the deal for a pitcher with another team? Or is asking for a Texas reliever only because the Rangers will only do Salty + prospects, and JS wants more in return for that?
i also think JS has a stronger hand the longer the wait. i don’t think any other club is going to offer the type of talent that the braves are offering. i hope cj wilson gets included… and think there’s a chance that he will be. hopefully he’d pan out too… i’m guessing he hasn’t pitched in too many pressure situations in the rangers organization…:)
JS may want Benoit over Wilson, we dont know. He’s been dominant against lefties also
I agree with 339 100% Texas wants to trade him, they feel the need to trade him, they are going nowhere and need young peices, if they cant pull off a deal, or if they get less than everone expects than Daniels is a loser and could be in trouble given his track record. Bottom line, let them hold out, we will go out and make moves, he will have to decide whether he wants our peices or not, either way we win, we either keep salty and watch him grow into a star, or get a star and an arm as well
I’m guessing the latter. If just Salty would’ve gotten him, Tex would’ve been here a week ago.
JS can say “Hey, I’m raping myself here to get Teixeira, but if you don’t make it a little more fair by giving us Wilson, I’m going somewhere else and you’ll probably be stuck with him.”
I wouldn’t be surprised if JS completes a lesser trade under the radar in the next couple days. All the press has been about Tex, but we all know JS likes to make his moves like a ninja.
Or they’ll send him to Anaheim.
The thing that is interesting to me – Daniels or his folks have to be leaking much of this to the press. I don’t ever recall the players in a JS deal being as out front as they have been here. And we know JS doesn’t leak…or at least leak what he doesn’t want known.
The point is that if he pulls off this deal and there’s a reliever included, that would only leave the starting pitching.
I’m really not sure that the bench is a problem with Diaz, Franco, Escobar and Thorman. There you have a good all-around hitter, a veteran, a contact hitter and a power hitter. What more would our bench need?
And as far as the starting pitching goes, everyone who has one they’re trying to sell is acting like an idiot and claiming the price is twice what the pitcher is actually worth. So we’d have to wait until Tuesday when the opposing GMs pull their heads out of their asses to get a deal done in that regard, anyway.
Coz,
I’d think that if they’re asking for too much from Atlanta, they’re surely asking too much from Anaheim.
By the way – I’d be happy with Benoit. Just get it done.
Sam – From my understanding, Anaheim isn’t looking for a pitcher as well.
we are in a good position I think. Daniels is wanting to see if someone will beat our offer and I dont think they will. Tex hates being in Texas and wants to be moved. Also, the really shouldnt want to trade him to a rival team. JS knows whats going on and Im sure he’s pointing out things like this. I just dont see JS sitting there waiting on this to happen at the last minute
sam and coz, but in the past few years the angels have been very reluctant to give up their young players.
All right. But who in the world would “leak” that trade plan that is obviously in the Rangers favor?
Well, we know it ain’t JS. 😉
Okay, okay. So Texas will be unlikely to trade Tex to Anaheim because they’re in the same divison. That leaves the Dodgers and Braves.
On a side note, I can’t remember the last time that we had a trade deadline this exciting. It’s certainly been awhile since we were involved in a huge deadline deal like this.
I agree…I would take Benoit or Wilson, but prefer Wilson because he’s a lefty. Mahay is old.
Ramirez is mashing like hell at High-A, though. They could afford to promote him to AA. He’s only 22, so there’s absolutely no need to rush him or bring him up before 2009. But his clock isn’t THAT different from what Salty’s would be in an ideal world, though Salty’s obviously already a pretty good hitting catcher.
Interesting from that NY Post article that the Mets just sent Joe Smith down to AAA… maybe Willie’s figuring out that Joe Torre isn’t the best guy to learn your bullpen management from.
AAR,
Or Bobby Cox. 😀 ZING!
Not wanting to stay anywhere tooooo long, Kenny Lofton heads to Cleveland for a minor league catcher.
Wait, why would Texas trade for a catcher if they want Salty? Anyone?
Kyle,
The catcher is Max Ramirez. Remember him? 🙂 He’s still in High-A, and he’s 23, so he’s almost like Lillibridge.
I see, I just thought Lofton was having (for his age/expectations) an average or so year for the Rangers. They seemed to deal him without asking for much.
I don’t watch American League baseball, he just seems to be in the lineup a lot in highlights.
It’s also possible that Daniels is using Ramirez as a leverage tool on JS, I suppose.
its because Lofton sucks and he’s overpaid. they just wanted to dump him. I dont blame them
Good call, Kyle. American League Baseball is hard to watch with that awful DH thing. 🙂
I stick with the National League only.
Let’s put it black & white…Max ramirez is no Jarrod Saltalmacchia in terms of potential.
Ramirez is destined to be a back up catcher–Salty is an everday catcher. big difference.
This has no bearing on JS or JS would have cared more when he dumped Ramirez in the Wick deal in the first place.
I agree, Alex, but that doesn’t mean Daniels isn’t being an idiot and trying to use it anyway. I don’t think it’s gonna hurt JS one bit, though, given that Max was in our system and JS knows who he is.
Does anyone have a problem with the way Andruw answered one of those questions earlier. The reporter asked him what is more important, batting avg. or Rbi’s. Of course he answered RBI’s cause his avg sucks. Does he not realize that they kind of go hand in hand. A higher avg typically leads to more RBI’s. Also how about listening to your hitting coach. TP gets a bad rap on here for Andruw’s struggles, but time and time again Andruw says he only looks at this by himself. he’s stubborn and doesnt think that he needs advice
Ramirez is better than most of you are making him out to be, but, no, he’s clearly not in Salty’s class.
Alex,
I’m diabetic—are you saying it’s gotten so bad that you’d try to kill me?
Stu,
Well, in that case, I will buy you a water.
Actually, in all seriousness, I hope you’re handling your diabetes the best way you can. My brother & parents are all diabetic so I am very sympathetic to those who suffer from it. It’s one of the fastest growing problems here in the U.S.
My question is what if no deal goes down that involves Salty? Does that mean a platoon with Julio? That doesn’t make sense b/c it seems Salty is stronger hitting right-handed. We also still have Thorman. We gonna carry 3 first basemen? Someone here is gonna have to go.
Jimbo,
This brings me back to my original point:
No matter what, Chris Woodward needs to be destroyed.
The game thread is up.
As my mom tells me—though I’ve yet to convince my wife—I’m just too sweet.
No comment 🙂