ESPN – Tigers vs. Braves Box Score, June 24 2007 – MLB
So, that’s the fourth shutout in the last five games, with that big fat “1” from yesterday. Apparently, the Braves are now imitating teams from the Dead Ball era. They were limited to six hits, all singles, and that’s not going to do.
Chuck James was terrific through four. He got out of a jam in the fifth but collapsed in the sixth, eventually being charged with four runs (two inherited). Let’s face it, one is enough. Like Davies and Hudson and Smoltz, it’s not his fault. The various pitchers are being asked to be perfect because that’s the only chance the team has to win. Fredo Ledezma gave up a run in the eighth but otherwise the bullpen was okay.
Saltalamacchia caught and had two of the six hits. Andruw actually had one, plus a walk, and is hitting a robust .199. Woodhead played first base with predictable results and grounded into a double play for the last outs of the game. He sucks and should be released immediately.
At some point, you have to do something just to shake things up. I’m serious about releasing Woodward, but firing Terry Pendleton has to be considered. I love TP, but this is awful.
When the Tigers scored their first run, I told my dad that was the ballgame right there. He didn’t believe it, but I rationalized my statement by saying the Braves had a chance of accidently scoring one run, but they had no chance for two, so this game could not have been won after that. I hate being proven right.
The Braves are making baseball, in theory, concept, and execution, look incredibly difficult.
Needless to say, they are incredibly difficult to watch. In no way are they exciting, fundamentally sound, or fun to watch. It’s boring, as Mac says “pathetic” baseball. And it makes me sad.
Remember April? The good ol’ days? Around Mother’s Day the team was 24-12, now they are .500. I know this isn’t an end of the world scenario or anything, but I don’t see the bottom of this downhill slide.
Woodward should have his name legally changed to “Out.”
Slides like this end with someone being fired, someone being called up, a trade, or a human-engineered rain outs–to name most of the slide-enders. Since we don’t have any other-worldly prospects, trades aren’t on tap yet, and rain outs are infrequent, the best solution seems to be the firing of TP. But maybe the trick is to fire the 3B coach and call up Wellman instead. A crazy man on the bench, in the clubhouse, and stalking 3B might do the trick…
Nowhere to go but up, girls and boys.
Sure we got smoked, but at least it was against the major league’s best teams.
And hey, we’re still alive in the division. Ity’ll get better.
Mike, there comes a point where optimism starts becoming inattention to reality.
For the last six weeks, the Braves have been the third-worst team in baseball. And that’s probably a more accurate assessment of their talent and performance than the first six weeks.
A lot of heads need to roll.
I love it how when you’re optimistic, you’re deemed naive, ignorant, or out of touch of reality. If you’re pessimistic, you’re seen as a negative nancy. I’m with Mike Clay, still after all this. We have a good team; we’re just under-performing. I think we can all agree this isn’t how our offense is capable of playing.
I assume the law of average will eventually kick in after the completion of the snowball effect!?
maybe we should throw the team a pizza party and tell them all that this will pass and keep your chin up, then we can hug it out.
I have no optimism left after watching this team stumble through a five-game stretch in which its collective lack of scoring would embarrass even a Premier League soccer team at the cusp of relegation. The tentpole run-producer of the lineup is in the worst slump of his career and is batting at a rate that would get him designated for assignment were it not for his bulbous contract that is but three-plus months from its terminus. I wish I could offer a bright appraisal of the days and weeks to come, but with chasms at first base and second field, a leadoff situation that is average at best and the catcher under a long-term contract in the most pronounced slump of his young career, it is impossible for me to be optimistic about our team being any more than a third- or fourth-place side, which means the powers that be need to think long and hard about a seismic change, starting with sacking TP and conjuring up ways to procure Leo’s service from Baltimore, even if it means yielding an awkward situation with a still-new pitching coach who has proven himself to be at least capable, although certainly not elite in his ongoing work. And excuse me for making this initial post so rambling, obtuse and misspelled in nature, but my first reaction after the sixth inning was to amble down to the restaurant at which my brother was tending bar and get hammered. With Woodward in the lineup, I was certain a comeback was not in the offing anyhow.
I mean, I know we’re only 4 or 5 games back in the division…but if we’re only scoring once every 5 games, I don’t see making up that ground.
I agree that, at this moment, the optimists just aren’t paying attention.
Well, okay, but Scott Thorman would probably seriously injure whoever he ends up hugging.
Let’s hope he hugs Woodward.
Perhaps we can get back on the juice. I miss those days… Okay, all kidding aside, this is the worst streak I have endured as a fan. I know that the Braves are better than this and can’t figure out what is going on. One or two guys in a funk is manageable, but a whole team…
Pendleton must be getting a little nervous. Heads will begin to roll soon if nothing changes.
I’m paying attention, but I remain an optimist for 2 reasons: 1) If I’m completely defeatist, I see no point in watching; 2) Because I can’t imagine it getting any worse.
Bring on the NL & let’s try to turn the corner.
Look guys, last year the Braves scored the second most runs in the NL. Then we lost Adam LaRoche and picked up Scott Thorman. Do you think THAT’S the reason we’re not scoring runs? Right.
We’ve upgraded in left. We’ve upgraded in right, believe it or not. We’ve upgraded at short. We’ve really upgraded at second. We’re neutral at third. We’ve downgraded at catcher and center, and while those have crippled us, it’s not totally the loss of LaRoche, and Andruw and Brian’s suckitude that is causing us to score 1 run in 5 games. Good offenses slump. They also slump when they play good teams. They slump even more when they play good teams with GREAT pitchers. Look at the pitchers we have faced. This will happen. If we continue to lose, we can start worrying, but these past couple weeks aren’t going to change the fact that we have a good team.
ububba,
1) Well, I’ll watch even if we’re losing and I see no reason for hope. Ain’t that what fans do?
2) I think it can get significantly worse than a .500 record.
Stu,
1) If I had no hope that my team could ever improve, I wouldn’t watch. I’m sure even Pittsburgh fans have some kind of hope. I don’t know WHY… but I’m sure they do.
2) I think he’s referring to how we’ve played recently. 1 run in 5 games… can’t get much worse than that.
Oh, sorry for answering ububba. I just wanted to say something too.
beedee @ #9 –
That was great. I’m going to bed on that one.
Bring on the NL? It’s the Nationals. When the Braves dropped 3 of 4 to the Nats awhile ago, I feel like thats when the downhill slide started. I blame Washington. And Langerhans. And Orr. And Woodward. And Joe Morgan. And the grounds crew. And the hot dog vendors. And…
Yes, GREAT pitchers like Julian Tavarez and Kenny Rogers.
Rob, “good” offenses don’t slump like this.
Rob, I never said I had no hope of ever improving. I’m sure by next Spring I’ll have convinced myself that we’re ready to compete again.
Problem is, isn’t the goal to win a World Series? Assume, arguendo, that we somehow back into the playoffs and even win a few series–this team just got laughed off the field by the AL’s best. We’d get swept in any matchup with the Red Sox, Twins, Tigers, etc.
I know for some people, the goal is making the playoffs every year, but we’ve done that before.
Some people’s goals are ‘staying close’ to the Mets and winning the East. We’ve done that before.
My goal is to win the World Series. And this team makes that look laughable. And that’s why changes have to be made.
We have a young team. When the veterans are not performing, the offense is going nowhere.
Kyle,
i was just about to post the lyrics to whitney houston’s
“greatest love of all” but thought that might be over kill.
I have a new favorite Braves Journal contributor, and his/her name is Insect Overlords. That’s one beautiful, gigantic paragraph.
And on the bright side, disgruntledfan, we’re only 1 or 2 trades and 4 or 5 free agent signings away from being World Series contenders next year.
We have a young offense, alright… but the youngsters either don’t produce (Francoeur, Thorman, the 2007 version of McCann), don’t have Cox’s confidence (KJ, Diaz, Salty), or both (Orr). The oldsters, except for Renteria and whatever alien is wearing Willie Harris’ body, are sucking it up or hurt themselves getting out of the dugout. And I add to the chorus asking, “What the hell is Woodward doing here?”
And the pitching staff? We need five starting pitchers. We have one reliable one- a 40-year-old with parts about to fall off- three Magic 8-Balls, and a lot of dreck. The bullpen is actually OK, but can’t handle pitching five or six innings every other night.
I strongly suspect that the players are simply marking time until 2008. But with the farm system almost depleted, why should that be any better?
We’ve upgraded in right, believe it or not.
Jeff Francoeur’s ’06 OPS: .742
Jeff Francoeur’s ’07 OPS: .740
No upgrade there. He’s still shitty.
We have a good team
No we don’t. Even bad teams have hot streaks. Ours was in April and it’s distorted people’s perception. We are not as bad as we’ve looked the past week or two (no one is), but we are pretty bad. At least we won’t finish last thanks to the Nats.
Too bad out most valuable veteran trade chit has done his best to kill his value.
sorry fellas. No way to be optimistic here.
People are much more clever when we’re losing, I think. Several posts tonight have gotten an audible chuckle from me. Particularly the one directly above.
Well, I meant Jeremy’s.
It’s looking an awful lot like Frenchy’s plate discipline in April was a fluke.
April: 9 walks in 25 games
Combined May/ June: 9 walks in 51 games, projecting to 29 walks in full season (Compared to 23 last year).
Breaking it down even further:
April 11-17: 6 walks in 6 games
Rest of season: 12 walks in 70 games, projecting to 28 walks in full season.
Frenchy hasn’t learned a damn thing.
Francoeur is a moron, plain and simple. Just an obscenely stupid baseball player.
1) Well, I’ll watch even if we’re losing and I see no reason for hope. Ain’t that what fans do?
I’ll watch too. If I survived the Andres Thomas era, there is nothing these guys can do to scare me away. Of course in those days we had Skip, Pete and Ernie. Now we have Chip and Joe, aka the two halfwits.
I have a new favorite Braves Journal contributor, and his/her name is Insect Overlords. That’s one beautiful, gigantic paragraph.
Totally agree. The ‘Enter’ key is for lightweights. Welcome aboard Insect Overlords.
If Bobby weren’t, you know, Bobby he would probably be getting show the door right about now. There is no way a team could look more lifeless.
Stu,
When I say worse, I mean getting 1 run in 5 games.
This team has been patently anemic since Tuesday. The day before that they battered the best team in baseball.
It will get better. How much? I have no idea, but it can’t get worse than that.
I don’t really care about the five-game-stretch snapshots—I care about our relative position in the stangings. I see no reason for optimism as far as that’s concerned.
By the way, ububba, you checked out Wilco’s latest? Pretty dang good.
This sucks. A lot.
However: The defending world champion is a team that won 83 games last regular season. Go back and read some Cards blogs from last summer – some of them were openly rooting for the 2006 team to just die and go away and get next year’s team here already.
Small sample sizes can be hell. We’re not as good as we were in April, nor as bad as we are now. But we might be as good as the 2006 St. Louis Cardinals, and as long as that’s in play, let’s ride it out and see what happens when we get to play NL teams again.
Wilco’s been on my to-buy list for awhile, but I really didn’t like their last album, so I haven’t been that terribly motivated.
One of the guys I go to Yankee games with is a Wilco nut & he keeps promising to bring the CD for the drive to & from the games, but he keeps forgetting. (They sold out 2 shows here in about 11 seconds, including a tiny club show in Brooklyn.)
I’ll get around to it, but maybe after the White Stripes.
I didn’t like their last one, either—this one’s very different.
Beautiful lyrics and great guitars, it’s basically the album I’ve been waiting for Jeff Tweedy to produce for the past 6 years (since I first encountered Uncle Tupelo and Wilco).
Trust me on this one.
I’ve gotten a similar earful from my Yankee pal & my answer is the same. “You know I like them—bring it along.”
Instead, I get never-ending outtakes from the “Let It Be” sessions.
Beatles completists are very useful (for me). They pay attention to the obscurest of the obscure so that I don’t have to.
“Listen, here’s the part where Ringo orders pizza, shhh, listen…”
when are we going to turn into sellers?
yeah, the new Wilco is a lot better than the previous one, but I don’t think it’s a must listen, and I really like them.
I would go to their show, though. Great live band. Tweedy shows a lot more personality live than one would expect.
We S-U-C-K.
Oh well.
The new White Stripes is ok. Decent songwriting, at least. I’m digging the High Strung these days.
I have been stopping by here regularly, but have not contributed anything in a long, long while because first I didn’t have time to watch games, then I realized I had nothing to say and now I have less than nothing to add. I think this team has been dissected beautifully and nobody needs me to point out how bad the offense is or what a challenge Andruw is creating for Scott Boras in the offseason.
Kelly Johnson and Edgar Renteria have been bright spots this year and they’re being wasted.
We all knew the interleague part of the schedule would be tough, and it was. The Braves (and Mets) have been exposed as pretenders. It’s still possible for us to make the playoffs from the National League but I wouldn’t bet money on it. I hope if the team isn’t close by the end of July that this year JS doesn’t make a bunch of desperation trades and instead sells off players for prospects.
I’m an eternal optimist when it comes to the Braves, but I’m extremely concerned. I know our offense isn’t this bad and will come around, but after that, our starting pitching is in trouble (especially after Smoltz and Hudson). Salty has been a big spark to our offense and he’s our best trade bait for a SP. If we continue to slide with a losing record in July, we can kiss the season goodbye.
The glass half full to this current wave of pathetic-ness is that Wickman and Soriano seem to be getting plenty of rest.
There are reasons for optimism–but they have to be qualified.
A snapshot at MLB teams reveals that the Braves are in the middle of the pack: 14 teams hae beter records and 14 worse and both Atlanta and Toronto are at .500.
At this point, the biggest differences are the ways the Braves lose (everybody will doubtless remember Mac’s Miserable Braves Loss Type and the NL East. In 2007 the Mets have not run away with things; in addition, the Braves were 13 games under .500 on June 22 (their low point) so they are well ahead of last year’s team.
If the Braves can turn things around then, they ought to be competitive in the weakened NL East. Given the recent competition, it is not surprising that the Braves looked bad (though I dare say none of us anticipated that they would be this dreadful) and so they should do a bit better in the weeks ahead.
We can be optimistic that the Braves can remain competitive, but the playoffs are almost certainly the ceiling–the AL is too strong and I would be surprised to see another 83-79 NL team (the team which represents the NL may well have another unimpressive record) win the World Series.
In other words, the collective mediocrity of the NL may yet save the season…..
You can add one of the ironies of 2007 (if compared with 2006) is that we have not missed Gonzo either….
We have missed Hampton though who surely would have been better than Davies.
ron, i figure hampton would have been about the same or a little better than james in both record and IP.
I went and very few things were exciting. As usual, Braves fans only made noise when the screen told them to, and Tigers fans made more noise. The only really enjoyable part was the Frenchy play at home. The funniest part (for me) had to be when the section next to us started yelling “We love you Frenchy” until he tipped his cap at all of them. They tried it with Andruw, but he didn’t seem in the mood.
I called for TP’s head last year. He has never been good at helping hitters adjust. Every time I read about someone making improvements it’s always been something they figured out or with the help of someone other than TP.
He needs to go.
Mac,
May I suggest that ‘Orr delenda est’ be changed to ‘Pendleton delenda est’?
Anyway, the only bright spot this morning for me is in the mythical One League standings (everyone lumped together) we have
Boston 48-26 –
.
.
.
Atlanta 38-38 11
NY Yankees 36-37 11.5
.
.
.
At least ESPN has something to obsess over rather than our recent ineptitude.
I would be surprised to see another 83-79 NL team (the team which represents the NL may well have another unimpressive record) win the World Series.
But the thing is, it’s not out of the question, even for the Braves. Even the Braves of right now. It doesn’t even take much…
Assume that Smoltz wins the two games he starts. Now, you just need two wins from the group of Hudson, Davies, and James. That’s not impossible by any stretch. It may not be likely, either, but this is the beauty of short series.
In fact, this is exactly why the Braves haven’t won more World Series titles. Strange things happen in short series.
Now the Nats and Marlins, this is no time for the Braves to have face teams of this caliber.
Good posts all around – I didn’t feel like I had much to add to what others have been saying so recently I’ve just been reading rather than posting (I’ve especially enjoyed some of the comments by ububba, Stu, and the insect overlord poster – 1 sentence covers 11 lines! – I love it!).
But I did get to thinking about the future w/ Andruw, and wondered what take anyone had on this scenario. Question is – if Andruw continues to struggle as badly as he has, do the Braves offer arbitration to him? I mean, my assumption has been that they would, but I got to thinking that Boras would have Andruw accept the arbitration offer to help him rebuild his value next year. And, if that’s the case, is that something JS and/or the Braves want?
Don’t know if I phrased that well/completely, but just wondering…
I blame this all on Andruw’s fleet of sports cars.
Please Atlanta…don’t draft anymore players who did not attend college from the local area. I mean how many more dumb hitters like Jeff Francouer can we take? This is perhaps the dumbest hitting club in the league.
First of all the KJ hitting leadoff has to end. As Omar Infante indicated, a leaoff hitters is suppose to set the table. Infante bunted and with his speed made it easily. From this point on…Harris or Escobar batting leadoff. KJ can be a lot more aggressive lower in the order and we need his power.
Secondly, Salty needs to be in the line-up everyday. No need to trade him for a frontline starter if we can’t score runs. And right now McCann nor Thorman are dependable.
Thirdly, Francouer and AJ batting consecutively is just dumb. You can’t have the two dumbest hitters in the lineup batting consecutively…that’s a pitchers dream.
Lastly, Bobby Cox is the one of the worse managers in all of baseball when it comes to managing an offense. It goes back to the Treadway/Lemke and Belliard/Blauser days.
Pitching and defense may get you to the playoffs, but it’s takes an offense to win the Series.
In’92 the braves had the chance to have Bonds instead of Maddux….I think JS made the right decision b/c they ended up getting McGriff in ’93.
Well, my internet has been down this whole weekend and I’m blaming the last three games on that. We cant keep blaming our poor performances on great starting pitching. We cant hit anyone right now. TP has to go and our team has hit under .235 at home.
I think we should go back to our old lineup and put Druw in the 3 hole and Chip batting cleanup. It doesnt make sense to put a .200 hitter in the 3 hole, but he needs protection around him in order to get good pitches. Also he and Frenchy should never be allowed to bat back-to-back again. If it doesnt work, hell, its only one more loss. Good thing is we now have to face our Wash. buddy, Bergman!
People that should be dropped today – Orr, Woodward, and Paronto.
Im sure someone has posted this, but like I said my internet has been down.
Pirates Inquire On Saltalamacchia
According to Dejan Kovacevic of the Pittsburgh Post-Gazette, the Pirates have inquired regarding the availability of Braves catcher Jarrod Saltalamacchia.
Kovacevic says the Braves want frontline pitching for Salty (ie, Mark Buehrle). This makes a deal unlikely for the Bucs. What would John Schuerholz want from the Pirates? I can’t see how it would get done without Ian Snell or Tom Gorzelanny included. A trade of either would be shocking. Kovacevic mentions that multiple teams have an eye on Zach Duke, but he’s not comparable to the aforementioned pair.
Mac,
Are you serious? Fire TP? Joe Morgan has already decided the Braves should hire for their next Manager. How dare you go against the baseball genius that is Joe Morgan!
Only kidding. I agree with you. Something has got to be done to shake this team up.
It’s one thing to lose, but it’s another to be humiliated, especicially at home. Sure, they have faced very good teams and good pitchers but that doesn’t mean they had to roll over. Frankly, if you can’t at least be competitive with the best teams, I can’t get excited by beating up on bad teams (if they can even do that). The fact is, the Braves are 14 and 26 in the last 40 games–a quarter of the season. I’m sure they aren’t this bad (who cold be?) and obviously the offense isn’t going to struggle this much all season. I suspect they will probably improve when the go on the road and relax. But I don’t think you can really say this is a good team. Right field is a black hole–for all they hype Jeffy gets, he is an average player, they get littlel production from first base, Chipper’s injuries have taken away most of his power, and McCann is struggling. Some of these will improve with time. I doubt Andruw will hit .200 all season. And, yes, I do think the Braves offer arbitration–if he has a bad year, his value will be lower anyway and if he recovers,he won’t take it anyway. I really think the pitching is not that bad–they held the Tigers to 12 runs in three games, which really isn’t bad–if the didn’t have to pitch shutouts to tie.
The point is, it’s been two years since the Braves put together any kind of extended period of good play. Since then, they have been pretty average, at best and they just don’t look like they are capable of putting anything together for more than a few games.
It’s not that the Braves are bereft of talent, but they seem to be both too young and too old. And, maybe the young talent isn’t as good as people think. Not to take anything away from McCann, but last year might have been somewhat flukey. To me, Francoeur is an average player at best although people get excited about his arm. He has been in the big leagues for two years now so you can’t keep blaming it on his youth. Davies and James are up and down. They clearly don’t have any arms like Andrew Miller or Justin Verlander–although, in fairness, that’s what you get when you win 43 games like the Tigers did.
Calm down, everyone.
Things are not as bad as they seem. If we turn back the clock 5 games, we had just taken 3 of 4 from two of the best teams in the game. Of course, things look much worse at the end of a 5-game losing streak than just previous to it, but one should not overreact to the short term results. I think those that say they cannot see it turning around are overreacting.
Admittedly, starting pitching should be the concern. But, recent games have actually encouraged me about the starting pitching. James was great yesterday through 5 and Smoltz the same on Friday. One inning was the undoing of each against one of the best offenses in baseball. I think it tells us that we have decent pitching (i.e. good enough to contend in the NL). Maybe, we need a solid three to vault us into the post season.
The offense should be above average, supported by comments already made in this thread. I really believe the last five days are a freak occurrence combined with excellent pitching from the opposition.
Get through most of July and then decide if we are buyers or sellers.
Jonathan makes a good point about Andruw and arb. His slump might actually be costing us a compensation draft pick as it becomes too dangerous to offer arbitration.
although, in fairness, that’s what you get when you win 43 games like the Tigers did
Wasnt Andrew Miller taken in last years draft? The draft system is flawed. The worst teams cant afford to sign the best players out of college so they have to settle for what they can afford
Though it has to be said that the Tigers got Andreew Miller in 2006 because several teams were afraid to draft him….
What really sucks about these past three days is the Mets swept Oakland. It went from 1.5 to 4.5 in the blink of an eye.
My point is that the Braves have drafted so low that they don’t get shots at people like Miller. Granted, the worst teams don’t always get the best players because of signability, but when you are always drafting late, it’s hard to get guys like Miller. Although I will say, I’m not all that impressed with the Braves scouting–there seemingly is no one in the organization with a really dominant arm.
Last week the Braves were (I think) eighth in runs and ninth in ERA. That doesn’t suggest they are a good team going through a slump; that suggests they are a mediocre team coming falling back to reality after a good start. Obviously, you don’t start selling off at this point and it’s not clear the Braves have anything to sell even if they wanted to. They can’t trade Andruw or Chipper, wouldn’t trade Smoltz. Who is left? Edgar?
BTW, did anyone notice Joe Morgan’s incisive commentary to the effect that Jim Leyland likes Andrew Miller because he has talent? Yeah, it’s funny how managers tend to like players with talent. (Except, apparently, Bobby Cox, who prefers to have players like Woodward and Orr on the team.)
Say what you want about Joe Morgan…but he was absolutely correct on how the Tigers would eventually get to the soft tossing James. And also about how AJ slump is totally mental.
Also why don’t the Braves draft big(6’4 or taller) hard throwing pitchers? Enough the Davies, James, Lerew, etc.
If the Braves are going to improve their drafting, they might start by actually signing Heyward….
So far, this is a pretty poor draft for the Braves–they threw away their no. 5 pick, havn’t signed Heyward and may not be able to sign Fields because he is a Boras slave….
Tony–I don’t know the real reason, but it seemed to me that some scouts in the organization fell in love with ‘Billy Wagner” types (and “Roy Oswalts” later) and so the Braves drafted a good number of shorter pitchers. Macay McBride comes to mind….
tony,
a blind man could have told you that james would likely falter after the 5th.
Referencing above posts about drafting:
Pter Gammons stated on last night’s broadcast that the Tigers got to draft Miller because they had the money to sign him.
I hope that Mac or JC can elaborate on the notion that Bud Selig calls teams prior to the draft to say, in effect, “Don’t draft so-and-so, you can’t afford him.”
Miller and Morgan were stunned. It seeemed so unfair that I couldn’t believe I’d heard it correctly. Does this actually lead to high dollar teams getting the top draftees regardless of drafting order?
yet another reason to love bud
beedee,
You have a point. But at least he was right on how they would approach it. Now that’s a team with good major league hitters.
Also one of the other 5 with the lowest batting avg in the NL besides Andruw was Adam LaRoache…now that’s funny.
Jeff Francouer reminds me of Pat Burrell only w/o the power. Both terrible hitters. Burrell is at.205 right now.
Stephen, the last hard thrower I can remember was Marquis and they couldn’t wait to ship him out. And he was about 6 or 6’1
I dont think Bud Selig calls people, but I didnt real all of the comments above, maybe there was some source to that statement.
Its not uncommon to see the best player in the draft not get taken early. its JD Drew syndrome. why waste your draft pick on a guy you know wants too much money and wont sign with you. so if other teams passed on miller, its because they didnt want to pay him what he wanted, not because they had to under orders from the commish.
#70, Edgar and Wickman for sure. Possibly Hudson. I wouldn’t totally rule out trading Smoltz either. They could complete the circle and get the next Smoltz by trading him a la Doyle Alexander. As much as I love Smoltize, I’d take a blue chip starter for a 40 year old pitcher with at best 2 more quality years in him. Smoltz for Phillip Hughes and Melky Cabrera maybe? The Yankees don’t have enough old starters yet, right?
I’m not impressed with Miller. Right now, I think Smitty could pitch a scoreless inning against the Braves.
The Braves aren’t trading Smoltz or even Hudson with the current cost of free agent starting pitchers. They didn’t extend Smoltz just to trade him.
I have to agree with the thought that if you look at who we’ve faced lately, its been the best of the best. We faced Schilling (albeit a shell of his former self) Becket, Verlander, Rogers, Sabitha, Santana, etc…some of the best arms in baseball. We’ve also faced some of the best offensive teams around, the Tigers, RedSox and Indians. So to lose to those teams is not like loosing to the Nats and Pirates of the world. That being said, we gotta pull some of these next games out, or we really will be up shits creek.
The funny thing is, had the Mets not sucked the last month, we wouldnt even be having this conversation, we’d be talking about whose prospects we’d be trading for…..
Wait the only pitcher we bashed was an obviously hurt Schilling. Tavarez, Rogers and even the guy last night…Miller…WHO ONLY HAD ONE PITCH!!…is inexcusable!!
But that was my point yesterday. At some point you can’t say ‘well we faced tough pitchers’. You’re going to face these same guys in the playoffs and they’ll be even better. You have to have an offense that can beat these pitchers, not one where you sit back and wait for the nationals and pirates.
trading smoltz would tare my guts out, plus his hurt. i doubt he’d pass a physical even if we wanted to trade him.
last year the pitchers felt they had to pitch perfect because of the pen, now with this (lack of) offense we can’t even get to the pen before the game is out of reach.i’m not ready to throw in the towel yet, but if we don’t see some signs of life over the next few series, i ‘d be up for trading some of the guys mentioned above if the price is right.\
braves, time to pull your head out of your ass and get the job done. rub some dirt on your pride, walk it off, what ever this is some sad baseball.
“his” is a contraction of he is here in chattanooga 😉
Getting one run in the past games (45 innings) is just pathetic. I don’t care if it’s Noylan Ryan, Sandy Kofaux, Cy Young, Bob Gibson and Greg Maddux in their respective primes. Just terrible hitting.
*Koufax
Granted, these were good teams, but I bet that the Tigers lose some games in the next week. The Braves didn’t look like they belonged on the same field. The thing about tough schedules in baseball is that it is often context-related; ie., it depends on if you face a team that is struggling or is hot. The Tigers weren’t all that hot until they played the Nats and the Braves, same with the Red Sox. And the Twins struggled before playing the Braves and after.
So, to just blame this on an “unfair” interleague schedule doesn’t make much sense–in theory, having to go to Atlanta should have been a tough part of the schedule for the Red Sox and Tigers. Instead, the Braves performed like a minor league team.
As for the slotting, I didn’t hear them say that Bud calls teams and encourages them not to draft certain guys. In any event, it’s not his fault since “slotting” is not part of the collective bargaining agreement. As currently practiced, it would be collusion under the antitrust laws for teams to slot–if, of course, baseball were subject to the antitrust. The agents are doing what they should to get their clients more money. I am very uncomfortable with the notion that teams assign different salaries to different places in the draft. It’s clearly a restraint of trade–again if baseball were subject to antitrust laws. I mean, you either believe in the free market system or you don’t.
As for not being impressed with Miller, you aren’t impressed with a guy throwing 97 and spotting his fastball on the corner? You wouldn’t rather have him than Kyle Davies?
“Sandy Kofaux” would be a great nickname for shut-down lefthander. Santana, you think?
yeah, i got a chuckle out of that too.
Mac,
As you know, any major leaguer worth a damn can hit a fastball, no matter how hard and especially if it is your only pitch. Hell even AJ got a hit last night, so what does that tell you. No way the Braves should not have gotten a run off that guy.
Chipper saw this coming when he was whining about the interleague schedule. That’s what happens when one of your leaders is afraid of the competition. The Braves showed no pride, no heart…just like the playoffs.
Marc,
If you really believe that the 30 Major League teams are in a free market competition against one another, you are sadly mistaken.
MLB puts forth a product collectively which competes against other forms of entertainment. Therefore, they should be able to implement rules which produce more parity. Making more than 50% of the teams in the League irrelevant is bad for the MLB product, as a whole.
doubledawg and Marc;
Thanks for your comments. I’m trying to get my mind around this. Under a legalized monopoly; a prospect can threaten not to sign unless he gets a certain amount. And the legalized monopoly allows him to do this because…??
Morgan (the sage) pointed out that the luxury tax was suppose to provide funds for small markets to sign talented kids. What happens there?
Obviously, the agents like the “slotting.” So must the big dollar clubs. Is the deck stacked against small market clubs? Duh?!? are we going to return to Bonus Babies?
Sorry for all of the money talk, but I’m looking for the new paradigm that makes the playing field closer to level; like St. Louis and the developement of the farm system, the infusion of African-American players, or something like that. Maybe it’s getting as many Georgia natives as possible.
A pipe dream. Dynasties built, not bought.
Parish (#92) makes a good point that MBL is putting forth a product. However, maybe the owners have figured out that what makes the yearly “race to the WS” product interesting is not parity, but having high profile/high payroll teams that most of the fans can hate like the Yankees………….. think about it. It has always been this way since the days of Babe Ruth. It would seem that after almost 100 years, either the owners or the Baseball Commissioners have ever seriously tried to change the system.
Speaking of building from the ground up, does anybody else want to join me in rooting for the Brewers the rest of the season? I mean, I still love the Braves and all, but what’s not to like about the Brewers?
screw that. I am rooting for the Braves, and hope we demolish the Brewers when we face them in the post season
Sorry …. meant to say the NEITHER the owners or commissioners have ever seriously tried to change the system………. (Maybe baseball wouldn’t be as fun without having high payroll teams and players to hate.)
couple of things…
Every one here wanted to trade Hudson at any cost after last year, how things have changed.
Ledezma has been pretty good so far, I’ve never seen McBride being close to that good. I think we’ll be pleased with that deal.
We don’t match up with the Brewers, if a miracle happens and we make the playoffs. Ben Sheets? Capuano? Turnbow? Prince Fielder? Geoff Jenkins? They’d be licking their chops to face us.
That being said, yeah, I like them. They’re the team we’re supposed to be.
What I like about the Brewers is that they remind me of the Braves in the early 90’s.
That IF of Braun, Hardy, Weeks and Fielder…wow. Gallardo just joined the already-strong pitching staff, and Cordero has been a revelation at closer.
Congrats to former Braves coach Ned Yost for a job well-done.
Anyways, back to the Braves…
What I can’t understand about baseball is how these highschool kids can have agents, and still be eligible to play in college, it should be that same as basketball if you declare and have an agent then you don’t have college to fall back on, and if you don’t have an agent, then you can choose.
But don’t be mistaken, the problem with guys sliding is the teams that pass on them are just unwilling to pay the money. There is no Bud Selig calling them up to tell them you can’t pick so and so, let him slide to this team or that team. That’s just crazy talk.
Porcello said I want X amount of dollars or I won’t sign, and the teams that weren’t willing to pay that amount didn’t draft him. Not hard to understand really.
Parish,
The antitrust laws apply to all other sports except baseball. The baseball exemption is a historical anomaly based on an old interpretation of the Commerce Clause in the US Constitution which is no longer good law. The NFL and AFL had to get special legislation when they merged and the draft is legal in that case and the NBA only because is is part of the collective bargaining agreement.
Now, as far as being a collective product, that is not how MLB organized itself; it considers itself 30 separate business entities. Under the antitrust laws, a group of businesses cannot get together and make collective decisions affecting price or output (which would include salaries paid.) Football and basketball get away with it because the collective bargaining agreement trumps the antitrust laws.
Some newer leagues have gotten around this by organizing as a collective entity, sort of how like the various divisions of GM are part of the collective company. But MLB hasn’t done that and I don’t see the rationale for exempting them from antitrust. I do agree that there are situations where the teams should be able to make collective decisions, but salaries is not one of them.
As for Kevin’s comment, I’m not sure what you mean. MLB can’t force someone to play at a certain price–that’s called involuntary servitude.
I don’t see this as being nearly the problem it is in football and basketball. It’s much harder to project first round picks in baseball than in the other sports. A lot of first rounders never make it, while plenty of high rounders become stars. I can remember when Scott Boras said that Travis Lee deserved $10 mm to sign because he was a “special” player. So I don’t think the system really retards the bad teams from getting better. What retards them is bad scouting and management. Forcing players to take less money might be good for the teams, but it’s not necessarily going to improve the product or help bad teams. Poorly-run teams will still make bad decisions. And you can’t blame a player for wanting to play for a better organization. It’s no different than a college graduate choosing to go with Microsoft rather than Joe Schmoe’s Software. Restricting individual freedom isn’t going to help the game.
Well, Smoltz is a 5 and 10 guy, so any trade would have to be run by him first. Does anyone know whether John wants to finish his career in Atlanta?
SP,
his desire probably changes day by day.
I’m pretty sure Smoltz has made it clear he wants to finish his career here in Atlanta. The only team I could see him approving is the Tigers, but only in his last year, only to chase a ring.
By the way, you can’t knock that smoltz trade too much. Doyle Alexander led the Tigers to win the division that year. That was ’87, when winning a division meant something. These days, I’m shocked they even bother to print the T-shirts and hats for the postgame.
Woodward looks like he should be playing in Philladelphia… the movie.
Yeah, why would Smoltz want to join the Tigers, with the best offense (and maybe pitching) in the game, when he can stay on the Braves’ sinking ship?
He obviously enjoys watching the playoffs at home.
Marc;
I agree with you on every point.
MLB will never be concerned with “parity.”
To even talk about baseball economics invites a migrane.
Go Braves!
Wow.
Saying Andrew Miller is unimpressive is ludicrous. The man has been dominant at ALL levels in his lifetime and made just his fourth major league start last night. I don’t care what anyone on here says, the Braves are still major league hitters and any idiot can’t step out there on the mound and shut a major league offense out. Miller did well and he is going to be a stud for a long time.
Now, I know Braves have looked terrible and I know Julian Tavarez is nothing to write home about, but like I said, most of the Braves 25-man roster deserves to be in the majors and they know how to hit the ball. Despite this slump of epic proportions, they will bounce back.
The reason we are slumping like this is that no one knows how to get on base. We don’t walk and it’s hard to score when we constantly are getting out. Also, it’s hard to score all your runs with two outs and if you recall, we scored about 60% of our runs with 2 outs in the early season. You had to know that wouldn’t last.
The team will rebound, especially against the poorer NL teams. Realize that we just got done playing Boston, Detroit, and Cleveland – three of the leagues best teams. Back when we were a top 5 MLB team, we would’ve performed better in such a situation, but we are only a team slightly above average in 2007 and it’s not going to happen.
This past few weeks proved we aren’t the class of the league, but hey, when was the last time the league’s best team won the World Series? All we need to do is be hot at the right time.
Smoltz stated rather clearly when his contract was extended in April that he was thrilled to be able to finish his career with the Braves.
#108, do think Smoltz would have been happier with the Tigers between 1988-2005? Do you believe Smoltz has given up down 4.5 games, as if the Braves haven’t made the playoffs in worse circumstances.
No, just stating that he can’t be completely happy with the state of the Braves these days, feuding with chipper, etc, especially when he looks across the field at the Tigers, who outhit, outpitched, outcoached, and outplayed his team on their home field.
First of all,
If I were Detroit, I’d love to have Smoltz for a playoff run. However, I wouldn’t give up much with the Bonderman-Verlander-Rogers-Miller combo already in place.
Sure, I’d make a run for him, but I wouldn’t overpay.
I want to see this lineup for the next month and see if we cant score more than 1 run a week.
(1) Harris
(2) Edgar
(3) Diaz
(4) Chipper
(5) Salty
(6) McCann
(7) Francour
(8) Johnson
Just to elaborate on Mike Clay’s point, it seems to me that one of the big differences between the AL and NL is that AL hitters are much better at working counts, fighting off pitches and having tough at bats. For example, in the Red Sox-Padres game, the Red Sox made Peavey work, throw a lot of pitches and, while they didn’t score a ton of runs, they got enough to win. This often happened to the Braves both in inter league and in the World Series. The AL teams didn’t batter Smoltz, Glavine, Maddux, but they got their pitch counts up, pecked away and scored a few runs. (Smoltz was actually a different story.) The Braves, on the other hand, were never able to do that and it seems much easier for AL pitchers to slice up NL lineups. It can’t just be talent because all the players come from the same places, but the style of ball the AL plays seems to encourage a different kind of approach. Maybe the success of the Yankees in the 90s had something to do with it. I noticed last night that, while the Tigers would fall off pitches, take it the other way, the Braves are impatient and try to pull everything. I’m not saying Andruw should necessarily hit everything to right, but the Braves seem unable to adjust to what the pitcher is doing to them. I mean, Miller was impressive, but he only had one pitch and the Braves just didn’t seem to any plan when they went up there. To me, that’s why the Braves pound mediocre pitching at times, but are often helpless against pitchers that can keep the ball away.
Sunbelt, I agree that MLB benefits from having a collective evil empire like the Yankees.
Marc, I appreciate your knowledge of the NFL and AFL merger, as well as various antitrust legislation, but it does not change the fact that MLB is essentially one product, one company with 30 regional divisions.
Think of it this way, do the Royals actually have the same access to the New York City marketplace that the Yankees do?
Here’s another counterexample of the 30 individual companies argument: what would happen if 29 of these companies went out of business? Would it be better for the one remaining team? If they were the only team in the league, would the Yankees sell more tickets and merchandise, or less?
The relative success of other teams matters to the Yankees and MLB as a whole because baseball is one product.
And another thing – Do you really think that payroll has nothing to do with the success of a franchise? Sure, some teams are poorly run, but a team with a $200M payroll making wise decisions will most often beat a team with a $40M payroll making equally intelligent decisions.
Thats absurd. Andruw needs to be in there and productive for us to be a contending offense. He can’t get it together on the bench.
“Thats absurd. Andruw needs to be in there and productive for us to be a contending offense. He can’t get it together on the bench.”
Well he hasn’t gotten it together by playing everyday, either. Something has to change.
Mike,
He can’t get it together on the field either.
Marc,
I think it has more to do with the DH.
Johnson goes from good leadoff hitter to 8-hole hitter? Please.
He’s been in the league for a long time, boys.
Not only his he struggling, but his luck has been terrible, as well. You’re out of your mind if you think he’s going to be this bad in the second half.
Stop for a second. Take a deep breath. Think about who we are talking about. We all know what he can do with a bat. He hasn’t forgot. Just watch and see.
You’re out of your mind if you think he’s going to be this bad in the second half.
There’s an awful lot of room between his current performance and “valuable”, though. I’m sure he’ll finish the season somewhere north of .200, but I see no reason to expect him to be very useful, at least offensively, for the rest of the year.
Mike Clay,
No one said Miller was not impressive, but he still had only one pitch and he is not Sandy Koufax. The Braves offense just sucks right now. Their approach to pitchers is high schoolish.
Doubledawg,
Let’s not be so quick to put Matt Diaz in the everyday lineup…He is a glorified singles hitter who DOES NOT drive in runs.
My lineup against righties:
Harris
Edgar
Johnson
Cjones
McCann
Ajones
Salty
Francouer
It will never happen b/c Bobby would neva bat the golden boy 8th
Diaz has an OPS+ of 119 this season. Last season it was 116. He’s a very good hitter—much better than Andruw this year, and much better than Francoeur for the past two—and he should be playing every single day.
Maybe if he were permitted to bat in situations with men on base (he’s always behind at least Andruw and Francoeur, and sometimes Thorman), he’d be able to drive in some runs.
Everybody shut the hell up.
Tony, I believe Dan’s exact words were “I’m not impressed with Miller.”
Regardless, he is a fantastic talent, but is still young.
As for Andruw, I find it hard to believe that he won’t get hot and be as productive has he’s been for years. As I said several times, he’s a major league talent who hasn’t forgot how to hit.
Justin…
Very interesting comment.
Ok didn’t we try this Diaz as an everyday player once before??
I think the Braves would reqret the day they trade Salty, he has superstar written all over him.
As I said several times, he’s a major league talent who hasn’t forgot how to hit.
Well, you may be saying that, but the stats—and my eyes—sure do tell a different story.
Ok didn’t we try this Diaz as an everyday player once before??
We’ve tried it in brief stretches and he’s performed. I’m not sure what your intended point was.
It’s called a slump. When your hitting style is like Andruw’s, slumps are bound to be embarrassing. However, that is also why his hot streaks are so over the top.
Parish,
Obviously, payroll is a factor but not the only one. The O’s have had a large payroll for years and still lose. The Twins had a small one and win. The Yankees haven’t won the World Series in six years. And Detroit isn’t exactly a large market team–it’s hardly an affluent area and the population is shrinking. Atlanta has a much better economic base now than does Detroit. Moreover, outside of the Yankees and the Red Sox,and, arguably, the Mets and Dodgers, the differences in payroll aren’t that large anymore. Most of the teams seem to be in a range between say, $60 to $90 million and some of the difference is attributed to teams that are rebuilding, such as the Nationals.
I agree that baseball offers a collective product, but it doesn’t give them the right to fix salaries. And the fact is, despite all the talk about contracting a few years ago, none of the teams have failed. The Twins are thriving. The Expos moved. There have always been disparities in resources between teams that affected performance; the Yankees in the fifties had a lot more money than the Kansas City A;s; the only difference is that in the 1950s, the additional profit all went to the owners rather than the players. By your logic, the teams should be able to set one ticket price for all 30 teams. I wouldn’t like that, would you?
And Justin,
If everyone “shut the hell up” Mac would be out of a job (or a hobby, whatever you wanna call it)
But, Mike, have you ever seen him slump like this? I don’t think this is comparable to previous Andruw slumps—that’s why I lack your confidence that there’s an impending hot streak.
Stat boy says: Detroit’s payroll is right around $95 million.
Yeah, Detroit’s not a huge “market”, per se, but in terms of expenditures, they’re at the upper echelon—that’s why they keep getting the Millers and Porcellos.
Some of Andruw’s slump has been bad luck, ie, balls hit hard just right at people, but you can’t ignore the high strikeout totals. That’s not bad luck, that’s bad hitting. He’s not ‘just missing’ hits where you can tell yourself they’re bound to fall soon…he looks clueless 4-5 times a game.
Stu,
I agree that this is his worst slump of all.
But, how do you figure he won’t break out of this? How does such a good power hitter just stop hitting? I don’t buy that. Half a season is still too small a sample size.
Well, I wouldn’t have previously bought the fact that Andruw could make it this far into the season without coming around.
I mean, I honestly have no idea why he’s struggling so much—I just don’t know how reasonable it is, given these past 3 months, to just assume he’ll snap out of it.
I really do hope he proves me wrong.
Side note about Andruw:
Despite all this crap about his demise in the field(not necessarily on this website, but it’s all over the media), he leads all MLB outfielders in put outs and has for at least a few weeks. He also has just one error.
Just a fun fact to chew on…but mostly to use against the idiots out there who think Aaron Rowand is Willie Mays cause he banged his head off a metal pipe(only in Philly…)
Actually, my job is being a librarian, so I’m supposed to tell people to shut the hell up.
I hate Andruw Jones. 10 years in the majors and the fool hits .199. Say what you want about how awesome his defensive skills are – a major league player after 10 years doesn’t hit .200. He should play like a scott boras commodity if he’s gonna get represented by a douch bag.
Andruw Jones once carried the team. I want him to do it again immediately b/c he owes it to the Braves. I’m sick of people complaining about “my money.” Do your damn job and then we’ll pay you fairly.
On another note, Mcann and Frenchy are doin’ fine. This is their 2nd full season. K.J. is doing great, too. I’m looking directly at Andruw Jones.
I will also say, if he wasn’t asking for so much money, I wouldn’t be pissed off at him.
Wait…Andruw is hitting .199, Pat Burrell is hitting .205 and Adam LaRoache is hitting .211. Out of those 3, who do you think will mostly rebound? Of course Andruw. I know he is not the brightest guy, but his history tells me he is more likely to breakout than the other two “studs”.
Andruw must stay in the lineup b/c he provides a legitimate power threat everytime he is at the plate. And in a singles dominated lineup, we still need that threat. Maybe he needs to start falling down again…at least he was driving in runs.
I think McCann and KJ will be fine. I am worried about Francouer…he unfortunately reminds me of Pat Burrell. His approach is embarassing. I think the superstar tag was way premature.
Frenchy hasn’t been in the league a full 2 years. He’ll be okay.
Andruw isn’t legitimate right now. A pitcher will look at his current state, not his entire history. The way boby cox sees him and an opposing pitcher sees him are completely different. I’m not knocking Cox b/c he’s giving AJ his opportunites – as a greate hall of fame manager should do. It’s up to AJ to bring the heat.
Also, I don’t care about LaRoche or Burrell. They don’t play for the Braves, have been in the league for 10+ years, nor are asking for $20 million in the off-season.
Marc,
I bet you and I are a lot closer on these issues than I realized. I am not advocating fixing salaries or ticket prices. Primarily, I object to the mislabeling of the 30 MLB teams as a “free market.”
I actually enjoy discussing the economics of baseball. I know, I’m a freak.
Sho,
You’re being ridiculous. Andruw hasn’t made any financial demands yet. Name one time he demanded more money. All of his negotiations over the years have been relatively behind closed doors.
Furthermore, downplaying defense is just as absurd.
Downplaying a .199 BA this far into the season is absurd as well
Sho and Justin…
No one is downplaying a .199 avg, but bashing th guy as hard as you are is ridiculous. If he sucks the whole so be it, but you can’t say the guy isn’t trying. Like Joe Morgan said, it’s all mental and hopefully he can fight his way out of it. And he has not made any financial demands…so relax Sho.
The real problem is that JS paid Ferrari money for a Corvette that doesn’t always crank
Tony and Justin,
I hope this turns out to be one of the times where I’m percieved as a hard ass on Andruw for no reason. If that’s the case, I’d love to buy you guys a beer.
However, I just expect better from someone considered one of the top CF’s of all time. Remember when people compared him to the greats? But the truth is that he has never hit like a great. Yes, he did hit homers and drive in 100+ runs but he never demonstrated patience at the plate, cannot still hit a curveball, and hits below .285 in a year he contended for MVP.
I’m on Andruw so much now because I believe we are not looking at him objectively because we are Braves’ fans. He is amazing on the field and can hit bombs but he is not consistent. People knock Chipper but he has been consistent his whole career.
Lastly, Scott Boras is AJ’s agent. If he doesn’t ask for big bucks for his client, it will be b/c Andruw squandered it with his poor performance. The game isn’t all about numbers and I’m not asking for a career year from Andruw. I’d prefer consistency.