The Jays have offered Vernon Wells (Andruw North) seven years, $126 million. Andruw will want something pretty similar. It ain’t happening. Open thread, but let’s not discuss John Rocker, okay?
101 Comments
Advertisement
Use code “Journal” for a 5% discount.
Andruw its been fun, thanks for the memories. All I want for Christmas is more than draft picks for Andruw, please let us trade you
Wow! 18 per for Vernon Wells. That used to be reserved for the Jeters, Ramirezs, A-Rods of the world. Not even kidding when I say this but you gotta wonder what the heck those guys would have gotten in this market. Man Pujols has to be kicking himself.
Mac you’re right. Lets enjoy the Andruw year while we can. He is a better player than Wells and unless there is a massive salary correction next season (very very very unlikely) he is going to command 18 or even more per season.
Man, that sucks. Seriously, in this market, Andruw could realistically expect $20 million or more a year. We don’t stand a chance unless someone buys the team soon. We need a REAL owner who cares about the team in a competitive way. Bye Andruw, its been fun. Take your diving catches, outfield assists, 40 hr’s a year and enjoy life with the Cubs, Yankees, Red Sox, Angels or Dodgers.
Makes you think about how different this team will be in a very short while with Marcus gone, Andruw leaving, and Smoltz and Chipper not getting any younger. JS has always done a good job of evolving the team, but with those guys leaving, the last links to the great teams of the 90’s will be gone. I don’t expect Bobby or JS to stick around much longer either.
Mac, don’t lose hope just yet. There could always be another collusion era!
If we’re about to become the Minnesota Twins, then let’s take a good look at that blueprint.
So…anyone still think we should trade Chuck James?
Well, the 1990’s Braves are fading, but Chuck James, McCann and Francoeur look to be the core of this team for a long time, unless Schuerholz does something really stupid, like trade James (not likely.)
Smoltz expressed interest in pitching two or three more years. I’d rather he never become a free agent. There is something Schuerholz can do this offseason if he’s not too busy trying to get Jose Castillo, sign Smoltz to an extension.
JP Ricciardi is a madman. He really should be fired soon. His teams have been nothing but mediocre and he’s tying up tons of ownership money in poor contracts. What’s worse, he’s screwing over the rest of MLB in the process.
This offer to Wells is not a poor contract though. I agree Ricciardi has made some bonehead moves in the past, but he is not overpaying Wells relative to the market.
This board seems to think Chuck James = Whitey Ford. He had a good rookie season, but let’s not pencil him in for Cooperstown just yet.
Compared to the rest of our pitching “prospects”, he is Whitey Ford.
Its not that he is Whitey Ford, its just the fact that the rest of our rotation is John Smoltz (the man)Tim Hudson(The disappointment), Mike Hampton (The injury prone under-achiever), and Kyle Davies (enough said).
Good news.
My friend, a big time Mariners fan, said he just found out that Jose Vidro has been traded to Seattle (to DH i guess. ..? Another swift one by Bavasi) in a package that includes Chris Snelling. It’s expected to be announced tomorrow.
And also that the emergency options are Oscar Villarreal (eh…) and Lance Cormier (frightening).
I’m gonna pray that Andruw gives us one mad discount. I know it won’t happen but who says I can’t hope? I’ve loved watching Andruw play and I will continue enjoying his play especially on defense for as long as he is here but it looks like thats only 1 year. Maybe I should hope for a new owner instead of a discount… which ones more likely?
The new owner will just be Liberty Media, which means another faceless owner who doesn’t care if the team is a success or not, as long as the general manager stays within the budget.
Nocy, Lee said it right, so shove it.
Why in frozen hell did we not deal Giles to Seattle for Snelling? I’d love to know if Bavasi was even considering Giles, or if he was just so high on JOSE VIDRO that the possibility wasn’t even mentioned. Frustrating. Bavasi has to be the most clueless GM out there…
Jose Vidro is 2X the player Giles is.
It’s amazing for this franchise that we don’t have 1 legitimate SP prospect in the entire system.
Vidro once was great player but no more, his hitting has slipped considerably and his defense is now awful plus he has become very injury prone…I would definetly take marcus over vidro
Once again, Nocy, shove it up your ass. It happens.
How is Vidro 2X better than Giles? Vidro has absolutely no power, and his batting average and OBP are comparable to Giles. The Mariners are going to pay him $6MM per year for two years, and I think Giles is a better player. I bet the Braves would have made the Snelling/Fruto deal fir Giles–I’m just curious as to why it didn’t go down instead of this Vidro deal.
Vidro is a has-been. Everyone behave or I’ll turn this blog around.
But he started itttttttttttttt ='(
Okay, I’ll stop. 🙂
Bavasi is an idiot. JS would have definitely taken that deal, and Bavasi would have gotten a better player for the same return.
Chuck James isnt Whitey Ford, he’s more of a Hampton/Glavine lite…what I mean is his stuff is similar, but not as crisp or precise….but he’s cheap, and we have him. 11 wins by a rookie with a respectable era is pretty damn impressive. If you need a comp., go look at Tommy G’s and Smoltzie’s rookie numbers. I’m not saying Chucky is going to will be able to hold either one thier jock straps, but he handle himself well as a rook, and I can only imagine what he may be able to do. But, I’m just a dumb cracker from Florida, so what do I know?
There has been a lot of talk about JS lately, and admittedly some of his deals (or non-deals) have been puzzling. Liberty Media is also being villianized as the soulless corporation. However, there are two factors that need to be considered when looking at both (one of which was alluded to earlier).:
1) I believe we have been successful in large part through the years b/c of SPs in the minors. We’ve either used them as 4th or 5th starters or traded them to fit the puzzle together. Unfortunately I don’t think our minor league SPs are very good anymore and I’m not sure why. Maybe we’ve traded too many away, maybe our scouting is drying up. It will be hard for JS to work miracles w/o this element. We’ve had great success with position players lately, but outside of Chuck James, we aren’t producing much. Davies might surprise us, but having Cormier or the Vulture as backups is sickening.
2) Money!!! – 2 things have hurt us. Our attendance has pretty much been stagnant or declining over the last few years (http://sportsbiznews.blogspot.com/search/label/attendance). Also, and probably most importantly, our TV contracts are not what they used to be. I don’t know the exact numbers, but I don’t see how we get anywhere near the revenue from SportsSouth that we got from TBS.
It could just be that its our turn. Everything is cyclical. We all knew that a time would come like this, where we would be “that” team, but no one wants to talk about that. We may not win a title, hell, we may not win a game, but I am a Braves fan. I am used to disappointment, whether its October or June, and I will just keep being a fan, waiting for our next time to shine. So if its this year, great. If not, fine. Im not going to stop being a fan, ever.
Lee,
Right on. Although I think we have a shot at a few good seasons (and possibly next season if our pitchers are healthy), if I can survive the 80’s and the remnants of the 70’s as a Braves fan, I’ll be there no matter what the record is.
Or we could turn into the Royals, who have been rebuilding roughly since they won the World Series in 1985. I don’t believe in cycles. Stay on the horse and reload in the saddle.
I think you go through a cycle unless you have an infinite amount of money like the Yankees. It just depends on the competence of the organization as to how long the cycle actually lasts
Again, folks – the fact that Seattle made this trade for Vidro, shouldn’t that tell us once again that there’s widespread MLB skepticism about Marcus? I mean, does anyone think JS didn’t try to unload Marcus to any MLB team? That he didn’t ask Bavasi if he had interest in Marcus while fleecing him for Soriano? Sure, Vidro had 15 points of OPS on marcus last year, but he missed 15 more games than Marcus too, and is 3 years older. So if even Vidro can bring a few prospects, are we to conclude that (a) JS didn’t try too hard to trade Marcus, or (b) teams didn’t want Marcus? Given that JS was able to turn Horacio into something useful, it’s hard for me to believe (a) is the case.
At first I was shocked about the Marcus situation, but the more I think about it, the only thing that really explains everything is that for whatever reasons, MLB GMs are dubious about marcus.
Oh, and unless he crashes and burns this year, I’m pretty sure Andruw will top whatever Wells gets.
Colin, there are very few cases where 29 MLB GMs agree about anything. There probably is some skepticism out there, but I think the Braves overplaying their hand has more to do with it.
I think that many GMs were wise to the reason we wanted to trade Giles (that being our hard salary cap), and probably knew that a non-tender was going to be the eventual outcome if a deal was not made. Given that, how was an equitable deal possible?
It wasn’t, so it was left to JS to either come up with a package, or consciously pursue an inequitable deal. He couldn’t do the former, so maybe he could have found a deal for someone else’s 25-year-old AA starting pitcher or something, I don’t know. It stinks to be in that position.
Maybe JS did get offers, but there was no point in taking on someone else’s 25-year-old AA starting pitcher, so he said, “What’s the point of getting someone who will never help just for the sake of saying we got someone?” Of course, all of this is purely speculation, with no facts involved. I think we should wait it out before we tell definitively. Steroids thing… wait a couple years.
How do you acquire Soriano, piss him off big time by not letting him play second base because you have Vidro at second, and then just send Vidro away the next year after Soriano is gone……?!
Thats idiotic.
Frankly, given the injury risks at the top of the rotation, and that Jason Shiell started for us last year, we could probably use a AA starting pitcher.
I agree. Losing Giles doesn’t really bother me, after his production the past few years and what his salary would be, but getting something, ANYTHING, in return would have been better than just letting him go.
All I can say is…enjoy Andruw’s last season…the team can’t win if Andruw takes up a quarter of the payroll, and JS will simply refuse to negotiate with Boras because of the bad blood between them.
Losing Marcus is not a big deal, but the way the Braves lost him is stupid. JS is still haunted by the Boras/Maddux trick five years ago.
Let’s not jump to conclusions on Andruw. Yes, JS has to have contingencies in place (read: Baldelli or like), but there are reasons to think that Andruw won’t get (or expect) a Wells-like offer. The CF FA market will be different next year, with several good ones on the market. Andruw will be a year older, and he’s 1-2 years older than Wells. Andruw has been the clearly better player over his career, offensively and defensively, but Wells is coming off a very good season. Maybe notwithstanding Boras, Andruw might accept a home team discount. All that said, I think the Braves will have to be willing to go 5-6 years @ $14-15M per to have a real chance to keep him.
I agree with Mac, you don’t rebuild, you reload. We can think terrible owners like the ones in Texas, Toronto, Kansas City for this stupid market. The owner have done more to hurt the game that the Black Sox.
Oh, by the way, I recognize that 5-6 years and $14-15M per would either require: (1) Substantial bump in budget (don’t count on it), or (2) Trading Hudson and/or Hampton.
this may be blaspheme, but would we really want to tie up money over 5-6 years with Andruw. I’d love to if we had money to spare, but we aren’t a team that can afford to offer a superstart a 6 year contract when all signs would indicated he’s only got 3-4 left in the tank at most. Lets call this the “Mo Vaughn” or “Pedro” model. While some teams can eat that $16MM for an injury plagued national league DH, the Braves cannot. With the demands that CF and more importantly, Andruws level of play in CF, I fear his shoulders and back may not withstand 5-6 more years. That said, I can’t think of a Brave I’d rather have sit on the bench and make $16MM in 2011.
Brian McCann during his off day? 🙂
The main difference in Vidro and Giles, is that Vidro is under contract through 2009 at $6 million per, whereas Giles was only going to be that price for this year
Andruw will be 30 near the beginning of next season. This past year he started showing the signs of a guy that’s been playing 160 games a year for a decade. Boras and Andruw will have to take a calculated risk if they can’t get a deal done before spring. If Andruw slips a little he’ll have a 3 year trend of decline. While I know he still better than just about any other centerfielder, a year from now GM’s might get wary of signing a 31 year old to a 4 or 5 year deal.
If I were Andruw, I’d fire Boras call my dad and get a deal done. He could be one of the few guys who could play an entire career in one place and be happy.
I don’t really believe that’s going to happen. That vampire Boras will suck some team dry and we’ll have to watch Andruw finish his career somewhere else. I hate Boras, but I’m really hacked at the GM’s who go along with him. If JS refuses to go along with this terrorist’s demands, I can’t blame him.
Gosh, I’m gonna miss Andruw.
I think that many GMs were wise to the reason we wanted to trade Giles (that being our hard salary cap), and probably knew that a non-tender was going to be the eventual outcome if a deal was not made. Given that, how was an equitable deal possible?
I’m not saying there was an equitable deal to be made. What I’m saying is that we should be asking ourselves why there was not _any_ deal to be made.
Consider what we know:
–Yes, GMs likely knew he was going to be nontendered
–GMs also know that if he’s nontendered, they have to compete with other GMs to get him; whereas, if they trade for him, they own him for at least a year
–GMs likely also knew he favors San Diego
–So, GMs outside SD know that if they want Giles, they either need to outbid SD, or trade something to ATL to get his exclusive rights
–Yet, no GMs apparently offered us anything worthwhile in order to avoid a bidding war or to get those exclusive rights
It’s true that JS likely would not trade for a player he _knows_ would never help. However, there are second-tier prospects who have potential – guys who have been injured, guys with good K rates who walk the ballpark. These are the kinds of prospects we’ve acquired before in deals and who have occasionally even worked out (this is a team that voluntarily acquired Wayne Franklin last year, for crying out loud). Given our lack of bullpen depth and starting pitching depth, don’t you think JS would have accepted some package of that kind of player, even if it didn’t include anyone who’d be imminently useful?
Maybe it’s true that JS decided to take nothing rather than middling prospects in order to send a message that in the future he will call the bluff of teams thinking they can get someone for cheap rather than see us nontender them. But it seems to me that if there were even a handful of teams that wanted Marcus, at least one or two of them would have been willing to offer something for the exclusivity as opposed to the uncertainty they’d get him if nontendered.
Boras’ job is to get as much money as he can for his clients. If AJ wants to stay in Atlanta and take a discount, he can always tell Boras that. But, given the Braves payroll situation, I don’t think it makes much sense even to sign AJ at a discount. They have to be able to balance the team–having a $14 mm player is just not doable anymore, especially one that is entering his 30s. I mean, Andruw is a very good player, but as we have discussed here before, he ain’t Willie Mays or, for that matter, Albert Pujols. He will be difficult to replace, but not impossible.
As for the payroll, I seriously doubt that a new owner would come in and throw money around like we want. Atlanta is not a small market, but it is certainly not LA, NY, Boston, etc. In the early Ted Turner days, they were able to behave like a big market because it was during the cable explosion. This is not a big market team and never will be. And, it certainly doesn’t help that attendence has been, for whatever reasons, less than robust in recent years–at least compared to the Yankees, Red Sox, Cubs, etc.
I don’t really believe that’s going to happen. That vampire Boras will suck some team dry and we’ll have to watch Andruw finish his career somewhere else. I hate Boras, but I’m really hacked at the GM’s who go along with him.
For goodness’ sakes, why does everyone blame Boras? These players are big boys and they do what they want. I know it suits us better to blame the agent instead of blaming the heroes, but it’s the players who call the shots here. Boras advises them as to what the possibilities are, sure, and he’s very often right. However, it’s the player who makes the final decision.
Maddux always has set the parameters within which Boras works for him, and then Boras has worked to best maximize the compensation within the range of where Maddux wanted to be. Similarly, when Andruw wasn’t pleased with the way things were going with Boras a few years ago, he sat down and got a deal done with Atlanta – but still kept Boras as his agent. That should tell us something important.
Boras is paid a lot of money for two things – to get the big bucks, and to take the heat off the players. But make no mistake, it is always the player who has the final say on how things go, and with very few exceptions (I’m thinking naive college players who hold out, the one area where I think Boras consistently gives bad advice) these are adults who know the game and know what they’re doing. If Boras consistently talked players into doing things they didn’t want to do, he wouldn’t have much of a client base
Boras does the job that his clients want him to do, and pay him handsomely to do. If Andruw wants to remain a Brave and wants to take a discount to remain a Brave then that is Andruw’s call. If Andruw wants to make $100 million plus, then that is Andruw’s call. Boras will try to make happen whatever Andruw wants him to make happen. And if Andruw thinks Boras isn’t doing that then he will, as he did before, go around him. But it’s Andruw, not Boras, who is the driving force here.
They have to be able to balance the team–having a $14 mm player is just not doable anymore, especially one that is entering his 30s.
I both agree and disagree here. I agree on the latter point – given Andruw’s age and trends, locking him up long-term for big bucks isn’t necessarily a good idea.
However, I disagree with the idea that in our payroll range you don’t sign big-ticket players. I think when you have a middle-of-the-pack payroll, in the current climate, the optimal strategy still involves signing a few big-ticket. Think of it this way – do you see what $8-10m is buying these days? Mostly crap. What helps a team more – having Ted Lilly and Jason Marquis for a combined $16m a year, or having one ace who costs $16m a year and a roster filler? Neither is optimal, but optimal is reserved for those with $100m payrolls. I go with the latter of those options. A team like ours can’t waste money on middle-ticket overpriced mediocrities. Why waste $8m a year to get a guy like Adam Eaton when you likely get not too much worse of a line from Lance Cormier?
This is a team in transition. right now the problem is not our payroll, but who we have on it. So we have a few years ahead of us in which we will have too much payroll locked up in guys like hudson and Hampton and (much as I like him) the often-injured Chipper. Can you imagine, though, if instead of those performances we were getting performances that befit those salaries? Nobody would be complaining. I think we have overall a good strategy of a mix of high- and low-priced players without overpriced mediocrity in between, it’s just that our high-priced players aren’t producing as they should.
So to my mind, this team is fine on payroll, it’s just locked up in the wrong players. In a few years as the big salaries come off the books I hope we’ll reinvest in a few big salaries that are more likely to produce, and not in a larger number of middle salaries who are likely to be mediocre.
Smitty,
i have to agree, GM’s and owners have been throwing way too much money at guys and it is killing the game…A GAME!that being said i think the braves will almost always have a shot at the division title.
unless we re-engineer our team to have a more ballanced pay-roll and and developing talent to reload with every few years then we’re going to struggle to compete.
Package Andruw to the Dodgers or Angels to get something besides draft picks in return. Seeing what Wells i going to get shows you the area for which Boras will set his market. That is not a market we will be able to make and I’d rather take a bigger step back this year to make a greater step forward next year.
If the Angels are interested in Andruw, I think Howie Kendrick would be a nice place to start, especially since we no longer have a second baseman.
Colin, do you have a few things you want to say today?
I have to admit that when I heard of the Vidro deal, I thought the same thing about Marcus. For some reason, he is not wanted. I admit the likelihood of a non-tender diminished his value, but I think I would put Marcus at least near the value of Vidro.
Regarding Boras, it is true that the players call the shots. I think Boras is the devil b/c of how he carries out his players wishes. Misinformation (aka direct lies) seems to be his go-to tool. I would think that players could use other agents to get the same results with a little more integrity.
I am surprised no one has commented on the SPs in the minors. I think we have some excellent pitchers down there, but the best of them are at least 2-3 years away in A ball and the Rookie Leagues.
And the team really is not fine on payroll. We have held $80M for what, 4-5- years? During that time period, revenues and salaries have increased. We should probably have seen some moderate increase in payroll from year to year. I am completely in favor of not overpaying for mediocrity, but I am not quite sure how paying Tanyon Sturtze $1M to maybe pitch for us in May falls in to that plan.
The real fault does lie with the GM’s and the players…but I’ve participated in negotiations for products. There are those people that you just don’t want to negotiate with simply because it’s a pain in the butt. Boras appears to be one of those guys.
There a 2 kinds of deals: Win-Win or Win-Lose. Boras is happiest when he’s completed the Win-Lose. In reality, often his players lose. If you cash strap a team with one or two players, you can’t upgrade the team. The player becomes a great player on a bad team. Boras is a talented Sales Person…he sells players on himself and then teams on his players. I’ve seen talented sales people screw both clients and their employers. Just because he’s good doesn’t make him right.
Sometimes the best deal is one not made. I’d make no deal for Andruw. I wouldn’t deal with Boras just because.
Parish,
No offense, but I think you are a bit naive. I don’t think Boras does anything that is not common in the business world. Businesspeople are always direct and above board (and that includes the baseball owners). Boras is annoying, but he gets results–the point is that it is Boras’ lack of “integrity” if you will that helps him get the results. And I don’t think the other agents are much different, except that Boras has a lot of high profile clients and he seems to enjoy spitting in the owners’ faces. I don’t like him myself, but that’s reality.
Given the Braves track record on developing pitchers in recent years, I wouldn’t get too excited about pitchers that are now in the low minors. Until recently, everyone was excited about Kyle Davies.
Let’s say the braves offer Andruw 3 years 40 million. Why would the next highest bidder do something like 8 years $200 million? Why out bid your self. I know teams aren’t supost to talk, but use some common sense.
Boras doesn’t tell the truth all the time (which is pure posturing) and he gets the most money for his clients, which is his job, but ultimately it’s up to the client to take or reject any offer. And like Marc says, welcome ot the real world of business. If you have thin skin, don’t play that game.
http://www.nj.com/yankees/ledger/index.ssf?/base/sports-1/116607542416870.xml&coll=1
He’s comming back!!!!!!!
As I said before, Reitsma era may not be over yet…
Ronnie,
Not sure the Angels would part with Kendrick, unless they decide to move Figgins to a full-time roll at 2B. Its a good thought though b/c Kendrick is pretty solid.
Figgins, Adenhart, Wood, and Donnelly
for
Andruw and Vulture (or Cormier)….heck, if they want a smaller prospect, ala Startup, throw him in too…especially after his down year in winter ball.
Push Adenhart + Escobar to Tampa for the Rock (Baldelli that is, not Dwayne Johnson)
LF/2B – Figgins
CF – Baldelli
3B – Jones
1B – LaRoche
RF – Francoeur
C – McCann
SS – Renteria
2B/LF – Johnson/Prado/Aybar – Langerhauns/Diaz
Or switch Baldelli and Renteria….either way I’d rather get something for Andruw rather than draft picks
Has anyone heard anything abou Cody Johnson?
Again, folks – the fact that Seattle made this trade for Vidro, shouldn’t that tell us once again that there’s widespread MLB skepticism about Marcus? I mean, does anyone think JS didn’t try to unload Marcus to any MLB team?
Just wanted to backup Colin here. Yeah, Vidro is locked in for more years but something is up with Giles. He has a bad rep around the league, and there’s only one thing I can think of to put that many teams off so quickly.
I don’t buy into the Boras is evil camp. He is just very very good at his job and he has ‘the pictures’ of Tom Hicks. Over at BP the writers there made a good point. Its not the dollars its the years. A discount from Andruw might be 18 mil but for only 3 seasons. I don’t see the Braves doing anything like that.
The attempt to get Baldelli speaks volumes doesn’t it? If the Braves had managed to acquire him I doubt that they would have even made Andruw an offer.
@52 well said Colin.
given Andruw’s age and trends, locking him up long-term for big bucks isn’t necessarily a good idea.
He’s only 30 and coming of the best two offensive years of his career. This statement is out and out ridiculous. If you are not willing to offer big bucks to a guy with Andruw’s profile, you are not in the market for expensive players period.
Cody Johnson is 18 years old and sucked in his stint with the GCL Braves this summer. If he ever becomes a major leaguer, it won’t be for another five years, minimum.
Other than the fact that he continued to try to pitch while he was hurt (which probably wasn’t the right thing to do – because he was pretty bad during those last few months), why is there so much Reitsma hate going around? Why do we assume that Mike Hampton will just jump right back in and be great after his injury, but assume that Reitsma will never get back to were he was. Saying that, I still don’t think we should have offered him arbitration, but if he recovers he still might be worth a minor league contract and chance to make the team. Also – what ever happened to John Foster?
John Foster was released.
Why do we assume that Mike Hampton will just jump right back in and be great after his injury, but assume that Reitsma will never get back to were he was.
If by ‘back to where he was’ you mean involved in the final innings of Braves games, I hope and pray he never gets back to where he was.
I am fairly certain that people would be ready for Reitsma to be gone if he was perfectly healthy. Where’s a pickup truck driver when you need him…
Hmmm…I thought I had posted this comment already, but I do not see it.
I knew that my comments would draw a couple of “naives,” but if Boras’ operations were the norm, do you think he would draw such a disproportionate amount of ire from GMs and baseball insiders?
I think he crosses lines that other agents do not cross. And before you say that is what makes him so good keep in mind that such compromises of integrity relative to others in his profession are not such a good idea, especially when you have such a limited number of buyers. You cannot continue to play the “win-lose” (as someone else put it) game or continue to proliferate lies to the same cast without feeling some backlash. A lie might win some extra dollars on one contract but could cost the balance of your clients.
As a few other GMs have intimated, JS prefers not to deal with Boras. So, I would argue that currently, if two players of equal value at the same position are available, one represented by Boras and the other not, the one not represented by Boras would experince more demand for his services and presumably a more attractive contract in the end.
Parish,
You’d normally be correct in noting the discrepancy between two player salaries in cases where two players were represented by different agents. But, the problem is that in baseball, as in markets in general, people with money (owners and their men, the gms) don’t act rationally. And so long as one of the owners/gms has money (and irrational thoughts), Boras clients continue to prosper. And in this particular case, Boras probably doesn’t care if JS hates him and won’t deal with him–the Braves have no money to spend. If JS worked for the Yankees (or this offseason, the Cubs), then Boras might be forced to behave himself (or his clients might end up on the lose side). Oh well. All things being equal in the mental stability area, you would be absolutely and totally correct.
Package Andruw to the Dodgers or Angels to get something besides draft picks in return.
Well, that choice is Andruw’s more than ours. he has 10-5 rights, and he may well prefer to stay somewhere he’s comfortable as he approaches free agency. I don’t see him agreeing to a trade anytime before July, unless the receiving team is prepared to commit already to a Wells-esque extension.
Seeing what Wells i going to get shows you the area for which Boras will set his market.
Boras didn’t set the market, the Blue jays reportedly did.
Colin, do you have a few things you want to say today?
I’m playing catchup 🙂
Regarding Boras, it is true that the players call the shots. I think Boras is the devil b/c of how he carries out his players wishes. Misinformation (aka direct lies) seems to be his go-to tool. I would think that players could use other agents to get the same results with a little more integrity.
Any agent will do whatever it takes to maximize the value. If he doesn’t, then he won’t succeed in that career. Players choose Boras because Boras gets results. They also choose Boras because he plays the same games the GMs play. Schuerholz likely uses the very same tactics in his negotiations with both agents and with other teams.
Put another way, Jerry Maguire is a fiction. Boras et al are the reality, because their skills are what their clients reward. If Boras is the devil, it’s because he’s a product of what his clients want him to be.
And the team really is not fine on payroll. We have held $80M for what, 4-5- years?
So? You’re measuring our payroll against your aspirations and the lofty perch we once held. Now we’re in the middle of the pack. That’s worse than where we once were, but I wouldn’t say it’s “not fine”. It’s not the best thing in the world, but it’s a fine amount with which to build a contending team. That we cannot do so right now is a product of decisions the tam made in choosing players to acquire.
He’s only 30 and coming of the best two offensive years of his career. This statement is out and out ridiculous
Not really. Andruw is going to want 6-8 years. This talk of him accepting 3 years is naively silly. Andruw and Boras know that a lot could go wrong in three years (just ask Dale Murphy) and they’ll want to lock up as much guaranteed money as they can when he’s 30 instead of assuming they can get another good deal when he’s 33.
So the question is, what kind of player is Andruw going to be in 6-8 years? Given his weight and his slowing foot speed, I’d be concerned for that long of a deal. Yes, he’s very productive right now, and I’d hate to lose what looks to be a good peak, but I suspect his defense is going to go south and he’ll be kept in CF long beyond when he should move to a corner. Again, the Dale Murphy example tells us not to assume too much when you’re signing a guy from 30-36.
I am concerned that the player agent system is designed in such a way as to drive players to sign free agent contracts in high-tax, high-cost-of-living states such as New York, Massachusetts, and California. For the player, $12 million from the Yankees might actually be less than $11 million from the Astros. However, for the agent it’s more, because his percentage is off the top.
Well, it is absolutely true that Boras’ clients do not suffer like they could theoretically suffer. I think it is more a function of the large portion of the supply of players which he controls/represents. I am sure this is one of the major benefits he markets to players and therefore perpetuates itself.
That is possibly why the draftees he represents do seem to suffer, not being signed or being pushed back in the draft. There is a large supply of those players and many are represented by agents other than Boras.
Unfortunately, Andruw is 10/5 which means even if the Angles offered Weaver, Santana, Kendrick, a bazillion dollars and the keys to Disneyland he could veto the deal and spend his last year in Atlanta.
JS should have moved him in July when everyone knew we were hopelessly out of it.
I knew that my comments would draw a couple of “naives,” but if Boras’ operations were the norm, do you think he would draw such a disproportionate amount of ire from GMs and baseball insiders?
Because of his success, Boras draws a dispropotionately high number of the top players, and thus a disproportionately high number of the biggest conctracts. That’s why he gets so much ire from GMs.
As a few other GMs have intimated, JS prefers not to deal with Boras. So, I would argue that currently, if two players of equal value at the same position are available, one represented by Boras and the other not, the one not represented by Boras would experince more demand for his services and presumably a more attractive contract in the end.
If a GM is assembling his team based on relationships with agents instead of the best team he can put on the field, then that GM seems to me highly likely to fail. Schuerholz has repeatedly demonstrated that he will deal with Boras when necessary.
So, I would argue that currently, if two players of equal value at the same position are available, one represented by Boras and the other not, the one not represented by Boras would experince more demand for his services and presumably a more attractive contract in the end.
This is a fair assertion. For example, Glavine’s main trick for his last two contracts has been to flirt with Braves to extract more money from the Mets. It worked well both times. If Boras had been his agent, that ploy wouldn’t have worked as JS would have just hung up the phone. Perhaps Boras would have compensated with some other scheme. Maybe not. I’ve never thought that Maddux has done as well (financially) as he should have since leaving the Braves and he is a Boras client.
“He has a bad rep around the league, and there’s only one thing I can think of to put that many teams off so quickly.”
Since when? Where’s the evidence of that ever being said?
Boras isn’t just acting on behalf of an individual client. Everytime he negotiates a deal for a player, he’s laying the groundwork for other clients. If Boras bends to Braves and negotiates a hometown deal for Andruw he’s dropped the standard for his next client. Boras could probably stand to give up his commission for Andruw. But, If he did a 3 year deal for 30 mill, then the years and the dollar amounts become the bench mark for his other clients…those can become the real market values.
Just a reminder to players, he’s negotiating only partially in your interests..partially for others and mostly for his own interests.
Again, the Dale Murphy example tells us not to assume too much when you’re signing a guy from 30-36.
Oh please, Dale Murphy is not an example, he’s an anomaly. His fade was pretty much historic. If you are using him as your player model, you 1) don’t understand statistics and player aging patters and 2) would never sign a player over 30 and miss out on a lot.
Again, Andruw is only 30, highly productive, and has shown great durability. If that’s not a FA you are interested in signing, then you are not interested in signing elite free agents. And of course the Braves don’t seem to be.
How is getting the most money and the best deal hurting his player? So what if he gets a cut of it too? In your job don’t you want to make the most money possible and if someone wise/foolish enough to give it to you wouldn’t you take it? Borras is jsut living the American dream and anyone of us would trade places with him right now if we could.
Actually there are tax rules that take away some of the tax benefit to players signing with teams located in low-or-no income tax states. This is not to say that there is no income tax benefit to signing the same value contract with a team in FL as compared to a team in CA, but it isn’t zero in FL compared to communism in CA.
Smitty, there are other things than money. For someone who is already making $10 million or more every year, is it really worth uprooting your family and leaving your friends and colleagues for another million? Would you move across the country and leave everything you know for less than ten percent of your (gross) income? I wouldn’t, unless I had good reasons to leave anyway.
The problem with Boras is that he doesn’t recognize any competing values. He acts as if everyone should just maximize their income and ignore everything else.
Like any advisor — agent, financial advisor, lawyer — there are those who present the options/analysis to their clients in a more holistic, balanced way and those that don’t. I get the impression that Boras is among those who don’t.
BTW, there are also those players who don’t care to hear about anything but the $$$ from their agents. I don’t get the impression that Andruw is among them.
I seriously doubt we’ll move Andruw. JS, Bobby, Chip, and Smoltz are getting into their last few years, so I think they’ll keep Andruw for a last push at a WS. If we traded Andruw, we would miss his bat next year. No matter how good the prospects we receive are, we will be better in 07 with him than without him. As a lifelong Braves fan, I would rather we trade him for the long term of the Braves but that isn’t going to happen.
I don’t think that’s a problem with Boras, specifically. I think it’s a problem with the agent-on-commission system. All player agents, including Boras, are incentivized to get the maximum dollar amount. An agents doesn’t want his players to take hometown discounts because that means less money for him.
The solution (if you figure this to really be a problem at all) is to change the pay structure for agents. Maybe a flat fee with bonuses based on whether the deal was struck with a predetermined “preferred team.” If the player’s biggest concern is playing for a winning team, then maybe the agent gets a certain amount of money for every game the player’s new team wins.
He gets the most money for his players as he can. He over shoots the amount that they are worth by a lot becuase he knows some fool like Tom Hicks will give in. However, in the end the player is the one that signs the deal and if you are a pro ball player picking up your stuff and moving across the country isn’t that big of a deal. You are on the road for half the season anyways.
I am sure there are some guys that would like to be closer to home. Look at Glavine, if he would have waited I am sure the Braves would have made him an offer.
So in the end if someone offered me a large enough salary to come live in their city for 6 months for 4 years, I would have to say I would be on the next flight out.
Boras is an ass. That being said, its the GM’s that have gotten us in this situation…..what if Hicks never game Pay-Rod that contract? Would things be different, or would the salaries have gone ape poopoo eventually?
The real answer is don’t hire an agent. Hire a lawyer on an hourly basis to negotiate the deal. It’s more practical. Most player agents are scam artists. Boras is not — he really does get more money for his clients — but he has his own baggage.
The problem with hiring a lawyer is they may not have a licens to practice law in all states and Canada. The ones who do are usually agents.
Local licensing issues for lawyers (to the extent they really exist) is easily solved by associating with local counsel.
The stories Boras tells about the level of interest in his clients are downright fanciful. In the Matsuzaka negotiations, where neither he nor the Red Sox had any traditional leverage, he said that there was a “mystery country” interested in his client.
I mean, he’ll say anything & not worry that his nose is growing before our eyes. He oughta run for office.
He’s too smart to be President
I can’t believe that Boras is the one telling the players to ignore where they want to play and go for the big bucks. Look, to be a professional athlete, and certainly to be an elite athlete, you have to be a very strong-willed person. It’s more than just physical talent. I refuse to believe that these guys are so malleable that Boras can just lead them around by the nose and get them to do things they don’t want to do. Look at Glavine–whom I like a lot. With all the talk about how much he cared about his family and how much easier it would be to be in Atlanta, he went to the Mets because they paid more. I’m not denigrating that, but he could easily have said–as Cal Ripken did–that I’m set for life, the money isn’t important, and I will play where I won’t. He didn’t, in part because these are competitive people and money is one way that you keep score of who is doing better. I doubt that is because of the agent, whether Boras or whomever. I find Boras extremely distasteful because he so clearly gets an almost megalamaniacal glee in sticking it to the owners and mocking the fans. But he isn’t to blame for GMs not having the balls to hold to their guns nor is he to blame for the players looking to capture every penny. I would say someone like J.D. Drew is far worse than Boras because, for all his religious inclinations, he is quite unwilling to leave even a penny on the table.
A.) the Braves never offered Glavine a contract, or even hope of one
B.) I recall reading somewhere that Boras was released as a minor leaguer, and his goal in life is to stick it to all baseball franchises, as payback
C.) I would say that it is a very small number of players who wouldn’t sign for more money, or for more years
This is a fair assertion. For example, Glavine’s main trick for his last two contracts has been to flirt with Braves to extract more money from the Mets. It worked well both times. If Boras had been his agent, that ploy wouldn’t have worked as JS would have just hung up the phone.
Were you paying attention at all to the last two negotiations between JS and Glavine’s agent? First of all, it seemed the hope was for the Mets to raise the stakes for the Braves; second, those negotiations were models of poor communication.
Oh please, Dale Murphy is not an example, he’s an anomaly. His fade was pretty much historic.
Oh, maybe I should have gone with Juan Gonzalez. Or Ruben Sierra. Or tim Salmon. Maybe I should have mentioned how the once-durable guys like Griffey and Chipper suddenly started missing lots of games.
If Andruw were in better shape I’d be less concerned. But it’s his physical shape, his loss of speed and the like that make me concerned about his ability to be worth $18m a year for the next 6-7 years