ESPN.com – MLB – Box Score – Brewers at Braves
Can Dan Kolb throw a pitch so bad that Jeff Francoeur won’t swing at it? Anyway, stop me if you’ve heard this one before…
Miserable Braves Loss Type 4.2(b), â€œStarting Pitcher Is No Good And Doesnâ€™t Even Pitch Five, Team Canâ€™t Get Hit To Come All The Way Back.â€
Kevin Barry was the best the Braves could do, which I guess is okay since he’s about tenth on the depth chart, but he managed to make me miss Cormier, allowing five runs in the first four innings. Actually, it was a near-duplicate of Cormier’s starts.
Still, the Vulture did a pretty good job (he allowed a solo homer but retired everyone else). Ray continued to have nothing, and Paronto had to bail him out in the seventh with a run in. The Braves had two runs at that point, mostly the doing of Pete Orr, in for Aybar who has a hand injury (and I’m guessing will be DLed when Chipper comes back) who scored after doubling in the fourth and tripled in Langerhans in the sixth (but was stranded when Marcus popped up).
7-2 through seven. The Braves finally chased Sheets in the eighth with a double by LaRoche and singles by Thorman and Diaz. Orr’s bunt single loaded the bases and brought the tying run to the plate. Ned Yost continued his cowardly refusal to use Kolb, instead bringing in Jose Capellan just to rub it in. Capellan allowed two flyouts to right (scoring one run) and then Francisco Cordero came in.
Cordero may not have thrown a strike in the inning and a third he pitched. He walked Andruw to load them up and then McCann to score a run. Then Francoeur ejected Barry from the doghouse with, possibly, the worst at-bat anyone has ever had. As time goes on, it becomes more and more likely that Jeff Francoeur is just plain stupid. Quotes from the game thread:
“That was the WORST Frenchy at bat I have seen all year and thatâ€™s saying a LOT.” — Alex R.
“I thought I was exaggerating, but that really could have been 6 1/2 feet off the plate. Like, really.” — Rob Cope
“[I]tâ€™s not surprising, but itâ€™s definitely frustrating. Doesnâ€™t seem like thereâ€™s any thought at all going into those at bats by him.” — Jonathan
Here is what happened. After a four-pitch walk to Andruw, and a bases-loaded walk to McCann, Cordero clearly was struggling. Do you think that maybe, just maybe, you might want to take a pitch or two? Not if you’re Francoeur. The first pitch was around the ankles; Francoeur popped it up out of play. The next two pitches were sliders in the lefthanded batters box. He swung and missed both.
Danys Baez — or, I suspect, Dan Kolb in a Baez mask — allowed a run in the ninth to make it 8-5. LaRoche singled to lead off the ninth, and Diaz singled with one out, but Orr (needing the homer for the cycle) struck out, and Marcus swung at a 3-2 pitch that was identical to the awful pitches Francoeur struck out on.
“Danys Baez — or, I suspect, Dan Kolb in a Baez mask”
Francoeur is the worst hacker I have ever seen.
I have heard about Rob Deer, but thankfully never(I think)saw him play.
Jeff ain’t stupid, he’s just “city smart”.
He grew up near Atlanta so we know where it came from….
Landogarner? Oh Landogarner?
Where art thou?
I needeth to speak to thyself.
Come hereforth and receive thy whuppin’!
Wouldn’t you think that some of McCann’s batting knowledge would rub off accidently on Francoeur? I mean, McCann is so good and patient that surely Jeff would notice his success and try it once. That 8th inning strike-out was so freaking annoying. A strike-out is one thing. Making yourself look totally stupid is quite another.
Gwinnett County should never be confused with Atlanta.
Jeff and Brian must not do much talking, if you get my drift.
See their’s is a “special” relationship. They also live together.
Okay, no need for that.
I’m glad I missed this one…
My day was bad enough as it is…
I mean look Atlanta’s big, and its tentacles effect far beyond what is called the “city limits”….
Be afraid, be very afraid….
I know they aren’t like that, but how can YOU explain McCann not rubbing off…..okay a better choice of words, How can YOU expalin McCann not talking to Jeff about his plate discipine?
Whatever goes on in Lilburn is Lilburn’s fault.
Lilburn, still too close to Atlanta.
Some Atlantans believe that, too.
Jeff’s nose is really red, maybe it blinds him as to where he can’t pick up the location of pitches.
Is it really a stretch to say the Braves can go 28-19 the rest of the way?
Atlanta is too close to Atlanta, so close in fact, that I’ve heard they are one in the same….
With our “staff” the way it is, I’m afraid it’s difficult.
Just curious: In which fine burg do you reside?
“Is it really a stretch to say the Braves can go 28-19 the rest of the way?”
Is it a stretch to say Tony Pena Jr. is going to win the Batting Title in 2007?
The burg of outer Mobile…..
I have a cousin in Atlanta, he used to wear a ponytail….
Unless Smoltz can start 28 more games, I don’t see us going 28-19…
Not even if Tim Hudson recovers and we have two good starters?
Okay, I guess I have a wish that can’t be granted then. Oh well.
Well…IF Hudson recovers, and we have 2 good starters…we still have that bullpen that will do their best to lose games for us.
Did anyone else see where Smoltz decided to try to go undefeated for the rest of the season back when his record was below .500? He’s managed to do it so far, and it would be really cool if he doesn’t lose again for the rest of this season.
I’d love to believe that we’re good enough to get there, but I’m afraid I don’t. Sept. 2 can’t come soon enough.
Mobile? Hank Aaron, Vince Dooley, a pretty good Bob Dylan song & a name few people correctly pronounce.
Ben Sheets just owns us. The Braves were sold to Ben Sheets..
They’re talking about Jeff’s at-bat on the radio…that he couldn’t hit that pitch with a boat paddle..
But, that his throw was also awesome…
ububba..you’re waiting for Sept.2
I’m waiting for Sept. 4. Miam – FSU ..in the Orange Bowl
I was going to say I’m not sorry I missed this one but “the worst at-bat anyone has ever had”? I would have like to have seen that.
Although he’ll probably find away to top it tomorrow.
That one must be a Monday nighter.
While UGA-W. Ky isn’t exactly a barnburner (at least I hope it’s not), I just wanna see ’em tee it up. I have a feeling that September baseball could get depressing, so I need a diversion.
Those are true words ububba..
Yes, it is a Monday Nighter…and I just can’t wait. Problem is, that Sept 4th is my gf’s b-day…and I won’t be at home to see the game probably.
Record it, avoid TV & radio, then watch it later. Can’t tell you how many times I’ve done that.
That’s what I’m planning to do…
Atleast I can fast-forward then should FSU be kicking our teeth in.
Are the Braves going to see Kolb at all? What is Ned Yost waiting for? He is their primary set-up man.
I’d like to see Bobby order Jeff to just “take” for an entire at-bat. Just so he can learn to recognize pitches way off the plate and learn some discipline.
He can take until he gets two strikes for the entire month of September, as far as I’m concerned. That AB tonight was just pathetic.
And Ububba, I never answered your question from last night. Yep, I used to live on Finley St. It was real easy getting home from downtown, needless to say.
Francoeur says that the pitch he fouled off — which was not a strike but at least was over the plate — was “his pitch”.
I was just looking at the stats for kicks. And I think that Andruw right now is what Frenchy would be if he could take a walk.
I was looking at the Braves franchise leaderboard on baseball-reference.com and looking back at the Braves’ stats on mlb.com and that’s when it hit me.
You guys are funny. Frenchy makes an awesome catch and then throws out a runner at home but yet he’s in the doghouse for one bad at bat.
But yet it was the pitching that gave up 8 runs and didn’t keep us in the game. Give me a break.
We assume our fill-in starters and bullpen are going to screw up generally, don’t we? Therefore, it is the batting that needs to pick up the slack. And that was a key moment in the game, Land.
That is laughable Sam. We are second in the league in runs scored and near the bottom of the league in era. We assume they will screw up but you can’t count on your hitters to score 9+ runs a game to win for you.
Pitching wins games. And it was pitching that lost this game, not Frenchy. The key moments of this game were the 8 runs we gave up.
No one’s bitching about the relievers because most of them are hopeless. On the other hand, Jeff is young and full of potential, but with at bats like that it doesn’t seem like neither he nor the Braves staff care about realizing that potential.
1. It wasn’t just a bad at bat. It was a horrific at bat. The pitcher had walked the two previous batters, and would walk the next batter. He swung at three successive balls, the last two of which were so bad that everyone in the park knew that they were unhittable — except Jeff.
2. You keep defending him as some sort of clutch god, so it falls to everyone else to point out when he doesn’t come through in the clutch — like when he has the tying run on second and chokes.
I’m with Lando on this one. Francoeur may not have WON the game for us, but he sure didn’t LOSE it. Kevin Barry lost the game for us. He sucked. Not that we expected much more, but he’s the reason we lost the game. Francoeur has been ridiculously frustrating this year, but he has also had his moments. It just seems like most people are looking for reasons to bash him. He may not have come through on the at-bat in question, but he gave us the equivalent of an RBI with his throw to get the runner at home. We all know that he looked like a moron swinging at those pitches, but the Francoeur-trashing around here is starting to get ridiculous.
Ok Jeffy, if that first one was “your pitch” what were the other two? Sucker pitches, that’s what they were. And you fell for them like a hayseed on the midway at the county fair.
The last 2 games are Francouer’s season in a nutshell—from hero to heel. He’ll probably flip-flop a half-dozen more times in the next 7 weeks.
I’ve said it before, but he’s one of the weirdest players I’ve ever seen. One just hopes he can somehow learn & adapt.
The swing analysis on Jeff linked to a while back inclines me to think that he won’t learn a damn thing. Not to mention every comment he makes to the media. It would take a complete rehaul of his whole philosophy, something that few people in their early 20’s are capable of. He talks about having to stay aggressive. As if aggressive=successful. He’s forgetting the second part of that equation, being smart. Aggressive and dumb will get you nowhere. Aggressive and smart, now we’re talking.
Mac please point out to me where I said anything today or yesterday about him being a clutch god? I defend Frenchy because you guys use him as your scapegoat.
Bad pitching is losing us games. Not Frenchy, who just happened to win us a game yesterday but somehow one bad at bat occurs and that all just flies out of the window. You guys are starting to act irrationally towards him.
And urlhix, no he’s not the heel here. That’s your perceptioN, not reality. He didn’t lose us this game. How many times do I have to repeat that? BAD PITCHING LOST US THIS GAME! HELLLOOOO MCFLY!!! *KNOCK KNOCK*
Lando, I didn’t say he was the heel. I said his AB was pathetic. So please check your info before you hit send.
The reality *is*, though, that Jeffy swings at a ton of crappy pitches and it hurts us. Sure, sometimes he hits one and it works out great. But in the long run, his poor pitch recognition will be more of a detriment than a plus. I, for one, expect a lot more from someone who is being paraded around as the next face of the franchise. Given a choice, who would you want to keep, Frenchy or B-mac?
Francoeur has a VORP of -4.8, an EQA of .238(EQA reads like batting average), and a WARP1(Wins Above Replacement Player) of .3. His occasional clutch moments don’t make his lousy performance the rest of the time suddenly go away.
I can’t sleep….
“I’m with Lando on this one.”
Tennessee Brave = Tennessee Moonshine
Lando is an idiot.
After 2 straight walks, Jeff decides to swing at a ball that he can’t hit, shouldn’t try to hit unless he felt he wanted to ground out on the first pitch as he does so often, and shoulnd’t want to hit because a sane person would have thought “THIS GUY CAN’T THROW STRIKES CONSISTENTLY, SO I’LL DO AS TED WILLIAMS SAYS, AND PRETTY MUCH EVERYONE ELSE, AND TAKE UNTIL I HAVE STRIKE ONE”
Jeff is selfish and stupid.
If that was LaRouche as the right-handed batter, he would have walked. LaRoche doesn’t swing at absolute crap, and in that situation will keep the bat o his shoulder and take the first pitch.
Bope, Frenchy wants to be in the hole. He likes 0-2 more than 3-2.
I was at the game (upper deck, so I couldn’t really see exactly where the horrible pitches were that Francoeur swung at), but during 2 different Frenchy at-bats, when the count went 0-2, I turned to my little brother and said, “Betcha he strikes out.” Sure enough, he makes me look like a prophet. I didn’t want to be right, but I knew it was coming. It’s just so frustrating. He’s so talented, but SOMETHING’S gotta change.
“Stay aggresive” = out on your front foot overswinging at crap you can’t hit.
Patient, aggressive at balls in the zone I can take.
That is what LaRoche does, he knows the situation and acts accordingly.
Which is far superior than what Franconstein does.
Big D something does have to change, Pendleton needs to work his butt.
Everytime Francouer swings at a pitch in the other batter box or so low it burrows into the ground, or so high it hits the Snoopy Met-Life blimp and cause it to fall on the AFLAC duck he should run a around the stadium 10 times.
Jeff Francoeur is going to be our Adam Dunn. You may like it, you may not, but it’s true.
Thanks for those numbers, Hawk. It realy confirms what my “lying eyes” have been telling me all along.
I’m no stat head (yet) but I can Google. For comparison…
VORP = 38.9
EQA = .323
WARP1 = 5.1
When Frenchy walks 100 times like Adam Dunn, gimme a call. I’d love to see it.
The best argument for LaRoche in the “LaRoche vs. Francoeur” debate is that LaRoche seems to have an idea of the strike zone.
Wow. That is one bold prediction. In his second season, Dunn had 26 homers, 71 RBIs and 128 walks.
First two are Frenchy like, but two out of three doesn’t cut it.
By the way, there’s a swing analysis for Andruw too at
Got this from sabernomics.com
Hey 4seam. I don’t call you names so I’d appreciate it if you didn’t call me names. If you can’t post without calling someone an idiot, don’t post.
And I don’t know why you people keep talking about his stats. This conversation was about who lost us the game. The difference between one bad at bat and giving up 8 runs should be pretty obvious.
Again, we know our pitching sucks, especially on a day when Smoltz or the good Hudson isn’t on the mound. How many of the guys on the mound tonight are supposed to help form the foundation for the Braves’ future? Also, it isn’t so much that Francoeur lost us the game, but that he had such a terrible at bat, especially in the context of facing a guy who walked the two batters in front of Frenchy and also walked Laroche to start the ninth.
I forgot about the walks that Dunn has.
Exactly. It’s not so much the strikeout, as it was the two pitches a foot outside and in the dirt that Francoeur swung at that really was upsetting. If he struck out swinging at a strike, I wouldn’t be so mad at him.
I’m glad I rolled over and fell asleep sometime during the Vulture innings. Jeff isn’t literally stupid, but he isn’t ever going to change unless he has a year where he hits 8 homeruns and drives in 32 rbi. Until then, he has Braves management telling him to stay aggressive and patting him on the back for hitting a lot of homeruns and driving in a lot of rbi. Why change when everybody is telling you you’re doing a great job? What I don’t understand is why any pitcher ever throws him a fastball under any circumstance. Until he shows a willingness to take a walk, why wouldn’t you just throw him sliders 3 feet off the plate every pitch? And yeah as bad as that at bat may have been, it’s our garbage pitching staff that has us 9 games under .500 and headed for missing the playoffs for the first time since ’90.
I didn’t see the game, or the at-bat, but I assume that it would have pissed me off very very much.
I guess what frustrates us all is that we see so much potential in Jeff, but it will never be fully reached if he doesn’t learn plate discipline and recognition of that strike zone.
He makes a terrific throw last night, has a ton of assists..he has a bunch of 2 out rbi’s..he has 5 walk-off wins for us this season alone…
Those things are great, but on the flip side you get an over-aggresiveness that will drive you crazy. TP or Bobby or someone in the organization has to help him. He needs to learn to recognize what’s a strike, and when to stand there and not swing until a pitcher throws you a hittable pitch.
I didn’t notice this when I watched the game, but apparently Bobby pulled Francoeur for the bottom of the 9th for Diaz. I’m hopeful he’ll be getting a kangaroo court fine, too. I believe that’s the first instance of Bobby tying to correct his aggressiveness.
I think the Braves bear a lot of fault for their handling of this kid. He has a lot of deficiencies (or one big one), and instead of trying to correct him, they put him up as the future of the franchise. How is he supposed to learn when, instead of pointing out his weaknesses, they hype the one thing he’s done well this year (you know, 2-out RBI or whatever it is) that is a totally worthless stat for judging player development? Why isn’t he walking, stealing bases, or hitting doubles? I’m happy that he can leg out infield singles, but that’s not how he’s going to build a career. And if he does turn into a super-star, the team is going to be paying him a lot more than they should be, and then will hit free agency just at his prime.
That should be top of the ninth.
Frenchie, hero to goat in 2 games. Yes, and in those 2 games he is 2-8, .250 OBP, and .375 SLG, or .625 OPS. Yes, that does capture his season.
Job #1 for Terry Pendleton between now and next April 1 is to fix this. If he does not, Frenchie at best should platoon, instead of the Braves starting every game with a player having the second worst OPS for a corner outfielder in the national league.
It’s true that Diaz went out to RF in the top of the 9th, but I suspect it had more to do with the fact that if Bobby did not pull the double switch then the pitcher’s spot would have been up 3rd in the bottom of the 9th and there were no PH left (except Aybar who is injured).
I think the key to not hating Jeff Francoeur is to remember that he’s really Ryan Langerhans with more power. And perhaps less speed. And hitting 5th or 6th instead of 8th. But that’s really all he is at this point. I take solice in the fact that him gaining some level of maturity is almost inevitable given his age, and that McCann is soooooo absrudly good.
But yeah. Jeff Francerhans seriously needs to learn how to take a pitch.
I would love to have El Grande Donkey on the Braves.