ESPN.com – MLB – Box Score – Phillies at Braves
Eight runs in the seventh inning. I was going to savage Bobby for leaving Tyler Yates in after he’d gone walk-single-sac bunt-walk to load the bases. Kali walked in a run; I don’t know if I’ve ever seen a reliever allowed to do that in a close game before. (Skip, on radio, at one point said that “The bases are loaded, and I wish I was.” Funny, but Skip’s been on the wagon a long time and this season is actually threatening to drive him to drink. I know the feeling.) Bobby finally got him, but it wasn’t like anyone behind him was much better; McBride allowed a bases-clearing double to the demonic Chase Utley, and then allowed another hit. Paronto came in and loaded the bases again and walked in a run again; when was the last time you saw a team load the bases, walk in a run, clear the bases, then load them again, and then walk in another run? At least it wasn’t the Mets, or they would have hit two grand slams. Four relievers used (Franklin finally finished the inning), three of them atrocious, and a 3-1 lead turned into a 9-3 blowout. Only one person can be in the doghouse for this one, and it’s the man who brought this fine relief corps together:
And if you think this is unfair, be glad I didn’t break out the KC Devil.
Season over. It was already dying, but this removed the life support. We’re playing for draft position now.
Spoiled was a magnificent performance by Chuck James, who made one mistake (a solo homer to Burrell) but struck out six in six innings and didn’t walk a man. Andruw gave the team the lead with a solo homer in the fifth, followed by Burrell’s homer, but they came back with two in the bottom of the sixth, Francoeur singling home Aybar and Diaz beating out an infield hit to score Renteria. Then the roof caved in.
Ray actually loaded the bases in the eighth, but avoided any more damage, like it mattered. The Vulture was great in the ninth, but he never pitches after the fifth unless it’s a blowout, because that’s Kali’s job. Now we have over 48 hours to brood on this.
The season was over in June when the Braves went 6-22 or whatever it was.
That’s it..it’s over. We shouldn’t even think about the wildcard anymore.
Our bullpen is just horrid, we don’t have any reliable starter outside of Smoltz.. we can’t win a game at home anymore.
We have the FEWEST home wins of any team in the majors. That is beyond embarrasing…
How does that 7th inning even happen today??
KC devil? are you referring how this thing went south when we lost our GM brains (Dayton Moore) to Kansas City? i bet he is laughing his arse off as we have have played .333 baseball since his departure.
..and where is the genius who was adding so much value by copy/pasting text from the 1914 comeback season. Yeah , pal – thanks for adding zero value to my life….do you believe me now when i say that was so long ago, you should drop it from your mindset. why not copy/paste the horoscopes – at least some cat lady somewhere may appreciate that.
If you believe 87 games get wildcard – braves need to play .703 baseball from here on out. aint gonna happen.
Every pitcher that pitched out of the bullpen today, should be waived and never pitch for the Braves again!! They have been horrible all season and today was no different. Who is Bobby supposed to bring in?!? Wickman and Baez can’t pitch every relief inning.
Bring up the AAA guys, there is no way they could be any worse than any of the guys that pitched today. Let the kids get some experience.
There is no reason whatsoever to keep the guys that pitched today. And we defintiely do not need them next year. And waive Reitsma while you are at it.
What a tragedy…
Come on now Rip..
The 1914 updates are good. They might not add any value to your life, but they do to mine. It’s fun to keep track off…
Now that our season is basically over, it might not seem like that…but still, I enjoy them
The KC Devil is my avatar. Full size:
Maybe Rip should do 1988 updates. “Braves 28 games back of the Dodgers… Starting pitcher Rick Mahler trying for fifteenth loss… Sutter leaves game with injury, again… Nixon just as stupid as Tanner.”
As Mac pointed out, good hustle from Diaz. No hustle from Francouer and Giles on a couple of weak hits. No excuse.
I’m back.
I hate to say but we don’t even deserve the WC…I say we just try and ruin other teams seasons.
I’m enjoying the 1914 stuff. Doesn’t take a “genius” to appreciate a history lesson, and if I’m not mistaken the only thing being cut/pasted are the daily standings. He’s doing the research about roster moves, and writing some pretty insightful stuff (especially compared to comment #3).
I like the 1914 updates aswell.
they sure do seem to playing like it was 88. at least the yankees wont make the playoffs either…ooopps…i cant wait to see those espn jerks eat crow. they were so bandwagon about an AL Central team taking the wild card around the all star break. at least if the dodgers make it, we can root for them since they have half of our “re-treads”.
We don’t deserve the wild card? That is implying that we can actually get the dang thing.
I put this on the last thread. I am writing a eulogy, send me any ideas you might want to see added
BSmith9215@yahoo.com
Well technically we aren’t out of it. We are only 6 games out of a horrible NL.
I am still hoping we can put together another streak when Chipper comes back. But I am doubtful.
Yes, but we need a long winning streak and a lot of poeple ahead of us to lose. I guess we all know that.
Has anyone seen “Inside Man”? I just got it and I haven’t watched it yet.
I have seen it a couple of times Jay. It’s a great movie..
Okay thanks.
I have been more optimistic than most about the Braves WC chances, but this game, combined with Ramirez’s injury, have caused me to all but give up. To go on a winning streak, we need pitchers that can consistently pitch 7 innings or more. I think Smoltz and possibly Hudson can do that, but I don’t see it coming from anyone else.
Last time I checked, we don’t have a Liriano clone waiting in the wings. Even if James, Davies, and whatever retread we get for our fifth starter (Cormier?), pitch good games, our bullpen can’t hold the lead against decent teams. I just hope we finish the year without a major injury and JS learns that he can’t sit on his hands (or get some marginal pitchers like Cormier or Villareal) during the offseason.
As a fan of baseball history & one who appreciates its erudition, I dig the 1914 updates, too. You’re never too old or too smart to stop learning.
I was at the game today . And I feel better about our future, but a lot worse about our present.
I thought Chuckie James was awesome. Maybe, two balls were hit hard off of him the whole game. If he was more economical with his pitch count, he could have gone 7 and we would probably talking about a Braves win and enhanced hope for this wild card thing.
The 1914 updates are great. Keep it up. At least we know what happened then and can have something to look forward to while we’re forced to watch this team. As someone who was born in the late 80s, I’ve never been through something like this before. So, I’m learning. And I learned I hate it, so I really hope we can get back on track next year.
I actually taped the game this afternoon because I couldn’t watch it then. I have done this a number of times and I found out it’s actually much less painless because I can just fast forward during the Braves meltdowns. They go by much more quickly that way, and I can honestly say I don’t remember much about them.
“enhanced” meaning “any”.
Wish we could somehow fast forward this season…
Bleh
I don’t care one way or another about the 1914 updates. I figure that if anyone really cared, they’d look it up on their own however.
Joe Crede just hit a 3-run HR. The Yanks, who led 7-0 at the 7th inning stretch (and had a Randy Johnson no-no in the process) have completely come apart, and now lead 7-6.
Hey Davey, this is a really good movie….I am only a hour into though.
Wryn,
Yeah, I’m watching the game.
In the last 2 years, the Sox & Yankees have had a slew of terrific games. Those teams would make a really good ALDS.
Funny quote from “Inside Man”
Detective Keith Frazier and Dalton Russell talking.
DR: You shouldn’t eaves drop on people.
KF: You better get used to it pal, there’s not going to be much privacy where you’re going.
DR: Your damn right, this time next week I’ll be sucking down Pina Coladas in a hot tub with six girls named Amber and Tiffany.
KF: More like taking a shower with two guys named Jamaal and Jesus. If you know what I mean. Here’s the bad news….that thing you’re sucking on is not a Pina Coladaaaa.
DR: HAHAHAHA
KF: I bet you like that kinda thing.
DR: You really want to piss me off.
I found this very funny.
Thome.. come on bud!!
Wryn,
He’s gonna saw off the bat. Seen it a million times. Very few lefties hit Rivera hard.
Or ground out weakly to second. My soul, Rivera has one pitch.
Getting mad at greatness is pointless, and Rivera is one of the best ever.
I still believe!!! I think the wild card is still in reach. We just need some solid games, a little luck, and maybe, just maybe there is a chance…..I know it sounds crazy, but stranger things have happend in baseball
Rivera has more than the cutter, doesn’t he? He’s got his fastball, and doesn’t he have a third pitch that’s pretty darn good too?
Yeah, but he only uses his cutter. HoRam had a cutter but it got hit out everytime he threw it.
I know this sounds crazy, but a part of me doesn’t want to make the playoffs. If we get in the playoffs with basically a .500 record + a couple wins, I wouldn’t feel like a playoff team, especially knowing that one of the Red Sox/Yankees/White Sox/Twins didn’t make it in the AL. That and knowing we’ll be bounced in 3 or 4 games in the NLDS, it makes the playoffs not really that desirable. I know I sound crazy, but that’s just my take.
Not really. He’s all hard stuff. Terrific fastball, all-time-great cutter, fearlessness—helluva combination.
Rob do you think the Padres felt bad when they went to the playoffs last year?
See everyone tomorrow, I’m going to bed.
I’ll take the post-season any time, any year. If you’re 1 of 8 teams, you almost always have a chance.
Did I miss something yesterday?
Was there a game on?
Because I swore I could have heard a last gasp coming from somewhere up in the Atlanta region.
Atlanta’s Opening Day Startling Lineup, Batting Order, and Compelte Roster next year.
2B Pete Orr
3B Willy Aybar
SS Tony Pena Jr.
RF Kelly Johnson
1B Scott Thormann
LF Matt Diaz
CF Essex Snead
C Todd Pratt
Starting Rotation
Lance Cormier
Chuck James
Tyler Smith
Jason Shiell
Jose Lima
Bullpen
Mark Wholers
John Rocker
Dan Kolb
Jeff Reardon
Chris Reisthma
Jorge Sosa
Mike Stanton
Bench
A couple of 9 year-old Pony League benchwarmers, Keith LocKhart, Rafael Belliard, and a monkey named Scratchyass.
Manager-Billy Martin
General Manager-Steve Phillips
In the words of Kirk Gibson “What a Team!”.
I like the Miracle Braves updates too. Shame that this club ain’t got that in ’em this year.
Unlike Mac, I wrote off this year a long time ago. As someone who has been following this club since around the time Ted Turner managed for a game, I can still find a lot of enjoyment even in games that we lose. There is always something new – two days ago, I saw a player hit a homer with half a bat.
But I get really annoyed at players, particularly youngsters, who don’t hustle and don’t play smart. Aybar loosing the ball in the sun because he forgot to wear glasses. Giles walking up the line after an infield popup with less than two outs and a man on base. Losing? OK. But stupid play pisses me off.
I’m not sure if that was a typo or if it was intended, 4 Seam, but you sure nailed it. That is, without a doubt, a startling lineup.
I’m hoping the Yankees lose in the first round of the playoffs, Cashman and Torre get fired, Steinbrenner hires Shuerholz and Cox away from the Braves, and the Braves end up with Torre.
When John McKay coached the Tampa Bay Bucs when they were an expansion team, someone asked him about the team’s execution. McKay replied, “I’m for it.” I feel that way about the bullpen. I think Tyler Yates should get an ice cream truck route and forget about this baseball thing.
And Chip Carey. He is rapidly moving into the Tim McCarver/JoIe Morgan category. Every time Francouer drives in a run he rails against the “so-called experts” who want Jeffy to get a walk once in a while. What a moron. Francoeur swung at a pitch two feet outside and happened to get a hit; ifhe had struck, Chip would have complained about him swinging at a bad pitch. At least Skip has a sardonic wit and is fun to listen to–Chip is just a whining pretty boy who has benefitted big time from nepotism.
Add Joe Simpson to that list too. Enamored over 30 HR and 100 RBI for Francoeur as if he already had those numbers. Almost as bad as Joe Morgan about railing about Money Ball a book he clearly didn’t read.
As bad as this year has been, at least I can say that this is the first time in 14 years that I’ve been in ‘next year mode’ at this part of a season.
Yates was terrible last night, but shouldn’t Bobby get a lot of the blame? How do you leave a reliever struggling so badly in for so long? As bad as this bullpen has been all year and as desperate as the team is for wins, I just can’t understand why Bobby didn’t have a shorter hook.
I think the next two guys Bobby went for proved Bobby right.
Dayn Perry at Fox Sports notes that the Braves have almost 60% of their remaining games at home. Too bad he doesn’t note how bad they are at home.
I agree with Ron. Given how important these games are, you don’t just let a guy pitch himself into an impossible situation. Granted, the other guys did no better, but it makes no sense to manage as if this is April. Once Yates walked Lieberthal, a .200 hitter, it was pretty inevitable what was going to happen. I would have taken him out then. Maybe McBride or someone else would have done better if they had more wiggle room. At the very least, I think Bobby should not tolerate guys walking weak hitters leading off the inning with a lead. It would be better if Lieberthal had hit a home run. At some point, he has to stop worrying about their confidence; if they still have any confidence left at this point, I doubt that anything could kill it.
Truth be told, Bobby has tried about everything he can with this bunch. No matter which way he turns, his options are all bad.
Bring in McBride? Take a look at his numbers—37 IP, 25 BB. He can walk anybody at any time.
In my view, the way the game is managed has less impact on our results than the performance of our lousy pitchers. Too often, they fail, no matter the situation—it’s that simple. When Bobby makes moves & they work out well, it strikes me as lucky because I don’t expect these guys to come through.
Once more: These pitchers aren’t any good and that’s why the Braves aren’t anymore.
Players that we need to get rid of this off-season or as soon as possible.
Wayne Franklin
Jason Shiell
Tyler Yates
PeterMoylan
Chris Reitsma
Todd Pratt
Pete Orr
Brian Jordan
Is there anyone else that you guys/girls can think of?
Maybe we can trade Marcus Giles and someone else to get Wilson Betemit.
Cox used to use his relievers in a more old-fashioned way.
He would use the good ones and the bad ones ride the pine.
Not any more!
Money ball sucks.
Morgan kind of knows what he is talking about, yet doesn’t.
STAT munchers need to calm down and realize that not eveything is stats and it kind of is.
Just not their crappy OBPs, its SLG/AVG
Hit for a good average/slugging and you get IW’ed.
Hence better OPS. If you have a Clean Up hitter hitting 10 home runs a season and getting on base at .400+ clip, you are going to suck.
You gotta *drive* in runs to win.
Giles is a good player when not asked to hit leadoff. The only reason to get rid of him is to free up payroll to address other more glaring needs. It’s very unclear we’ll get the same production from Aybar if we trade Gilly.
You guys are being a bit too hard on last night’s relievers. Yates and Paranto and to a lesser extent Macbridge have done an okay job for the Braves especially compared to Reitsma and other garbage they used earlier in the year. The umpire last night had a ridiculously small strike zone which had to play a part in all the walks in the 7th inning. I’m not saying those guys are great, but let’s not overreact to one (very) bad game. It’s been mostly our starters that have killed us since the All-star break.
billy-jay
It’s what is going to happen if CJ stays hurt, AJ and Hudson get shipped, and Smoltz retires. Along with the plane carrying the people we traded for Tim and Druw’ crashing into a mountain and killing all aboard.
Which sounds like a plausible scenario to happen to the Braves right now.
I miss the healthy Mike Hampton.
Tyler Yates
1-4 4.61 ERA 27.1 IP 23 H 15 R 14 ER 20 BB 25 K
Chad Paronto
0-0 2.72 ERA 36.1 IP 37 H 13 R 11 ER 16 BB 31 K
Macay McBride
3-1 4.10 ERA 37.1 IP 33 H 21 R 17 ER 25 BB 21 K
Now these guys stats would be even worse if GYRO was a recorded stat.
Jay10,
John Thompson
Tim Hudson
Marcus Giles
Tony Pena Jr.
and Tony Pena Sr.
I miss the healthy Mike Hampton… I miss Chipper…I miss Wilson…I miss Davies, K.J…and I’ll probably miss HoRam after whoever gets to start in his place gives up 12 runs in 2.1 innings pitched.
I miss Mike Hampton too. I also miss 2003 Tim Hudson…on second thought I wouldn’t mind 2005 Tim Hudson.
The Braves Bullpen is too fat.
Villareal, Wickman, Baez, Paronto, Yates, Mcbride, all are fatasses.
WICKMANIA can stay fat because he can handle it apparently(how I have no idea).
All of the others need to get in shape, even Baez.
I miss John Wayne Ennis, the guy we called up from AA for one start and he goes 5 or 6 allowing 1 or 2 runs.
This is what really baffles me: Even bad pitchers get guys out most of the time. It seems like the league is hitting around .700 off of our spot starters and relievers (at least in situations that matter).
Hampton is a lefty, with good pitches, good location, a competitor, great guy, IN SHAPE…..
Kyle Davies 1 or 2 hitted the Mets and Paul “Don’t know when to fold them” Lo Duca.
KD would have been so much more valuable this season than last.
An actual 4th Starter who has a legitimate chance to play a deacde in the Major League. Nope we got Shiell.
I miss Chris Hammond.
I miss being able to win games at the Ted..
In fact I miss Alexjandro Pena ca. 1991.
I miss the good ole Great Pitching and good defense days when we didn’t require a good offense to win. I wish JS would realize..the further we get away from pitching, the worse we do.
I miss Ryan Klesko pouting everytime he hit one of his a little bit shorter than the warning track power fly balls.
When is he going to be brought back for one more try?
How about Michael Tucker, he’s starting to suck really bad, lets bring him back for that “veteran” presence that Jeff so “desperately” needs.
We started to see the death of the Braves in 2003 when we went after OFFENSE, that being Sheffield. WE SUNK A TREMENDOUS AMOUNT of cash that coudl have been spent in better areas.
Slowly, bit by bit, the Braves have started to suck.
If it were not for longshot flare ups by Charles Thomas and Francouer etc. this thing might have ended in 2004 or 2005.
I miss J.D. Drew, he took walks, batted .300 and hit 30 homers.
I miss Robert Fick. No…no, actually I don’t…
I liked your moneyballers post 4 Seam…
I miss having a lead-off hitter, THE LAST ONE WAS BOOOOOO KENNY FREAKING LOFTON!!! BOOOOO!!!!!
Furcal wasn’t a leadoff hitter?
I miss winning and being competitive!!!!
Kenny Loften can jump off a cliff.
I hope the Yankees don’t fire Torre and hire Bobby and JS. That woudl suck for us.
Thank you, Davey.
You are according to my limited but probably correct knowledge the FIRST HUMAN BEING ALIVE to read it. Blogging is new to me, trying to post pictures took approximately 4 hours out of my day.
That being said, I like stats, but sometimes they are deceptive, for instance The Big Gryboski, who had a decent ERA, but who is so infamous for a certain something he has a stat named after him.
Jeff Francouer unlike Erstad is pondering the depths of hacking a team to death.
Erstad takes 50+walks a season.
Jeff will be a 10-5 guy before that happens.
“Furcal wasn’t a leadoff hitter? ”
I consider a lead-off hitter to try to get on base any way they can, work the count, and take compact and “hit for average strokes”.
Not that wild swinging SS who never quite knew when to try to make a easy throw either.
futher elaboration….
10-5 guy BEFORE he gets to 50 walks-total.
Well 4Seam, under your logic, our last leadoff hitter would be Marquis Grissom. Loften sucked ass as a Brave
This scares me everytime it happens.
http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=2545110
I miss . . . ballplayers. How many do we have?
Guys that any ballclub wouuld gladly love to have, guys that will come out and hurt somebody every day. Not projects and talents and “best we could get.”
A healthy Chipper? Andruw for sure; same with Smoltz. I think Mc Cann sure could be. Maybe that feeling is why Hampton’s name has popped up so frequently today.
The rest of these guys are basically filling out a roster.
How did it come to this?
I am beginning to think JS has a gambling problem. Because everytime he signs one of the players that has failed and no other teams want them it’s a gamble. Sure it has payed off in the past but this was going to happen sooner or later. Maybe it’s the same problem that Mike Shannahan has with drafting nobodys and turning them into 1000 yard rushers. Mike finaly failded with Maurice Clarrett and now JS failded with these guys.
Mike Hampton got one of the worst contracts of all time. According to GQ.
We need to get off the JS bashing. Who was he going to get? We have had a lot of guys get hurt, especially pitchers.
What would you guys have done??
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2006/writers/rick_reilly/08/07/reilly0814/index.html
An article by Rick Reilly, on morals and winning…
http://daveysplace.blogspot.com/2006/08/what-would-you-have-done.html
There’s my take on it…
I am not bashing JS.
Smitty,
Do you really think that JS didn’t like all the attention and praise that he would get when he continuously went to the playoffs with…well scrubs. I honestly think that each year he would try see how far he could take it. I like JS, but there is always good players out there that our available, the blame shouldn’t be place souly on him. But he does deserve some of it, along with Ted Turner. Hopefully we get some new owners that are willing to spend money and spend the money smart to improve this team.
Smitty, you are right. We have had a lot of pitchers get hurt this year, probably more than any other club. With that said we had some $$$ to spend and we still have some. I dont like the fact that we haven’t gotten another starter this year. Someone has to be available and be a better option that Shiell or Cormier. I’m not saying he’s not doing his job right now, but he slacked this offseason. Thomson and Horacio are injury prone and we had no backup plan. Davies injury was just “icing on the cake for our rotation.”
What did Ted Turner do?
JS made a move to get two guys (Cromier and the Vulture) that he thought would be sold and the numbers backed him up. The team thought between Boyer, Reitsma, Devine, McBride, and someone else a closer would step up. Well Boyer was hurt in spring traning, Rietsma hid an injury, McBride was hurt, Devine got hurt and fell apart.
He tired to trade Sosa or Thomson for more pitching, but no one bit. He may/may not have gone after Todd Jones (everyone on this board would have shit if we got him, he is over rated big time) We went after Wickman, but he wanted to stay in Cleveland. We went after Hoffman, he wanted to stay in San Diego. He pulled off the the most one sided trade of the winter (Renteria and cash! for Marte)
14 strait division titles. What else do you want from him?
We had six starters at the first of the year!
IF your kid has s tube in his head, do you let him play sports?
I don’t bash JS. He put together a good team with a questionable bullpen. He tried. 14 straight. Can’t complain.
I played fast-pitch little league with a boy that had hemophilia. He basically batted in full catchers gear and foam everywhere.
HAHAHA…ESPN News just called Macay McBride Ma-cee McBride. Can’t they get our players names right. BBTW still calls Betemit
Bey-ta-meat and Bey-ta-ment
oops I meant to say BBTN.
Nor am I bashing JS. I think he is still one of the best out there. That is evidenced by the fact that he has been here 15+ years. For what he has had to work with in the past, he and Bobby have gone above and beyond what was expected.
I just think its about time to focus on what got us this far…pitching Throughout the 90s Maddux, Glavine, and Smoltz proved what is important for a team to have. In the 90s we never had the leagues best lead off hitter, home-run hitter, etc. We did it with pitching.
Follow the pattern.
Very true Petros.
Lofton hit .300. Lofton stole bases at a better pct%. Lofton walked more.
A lead-off hitter need to be patient, depending on what day it was Furcal was either impatient or patient.
“Mike Hampton got one of the worst contracts of all time. According to GQ.”
The Braves pay very little of it.
It was just on Cold Pizza. They were doing the top 10 worst contracts and Mike Hampton came in a #10.
Cardinals are crushing the Reds.5-0 in the 5th. Bronson Arroyo is giving up bombs.
Marquis in 1995 was the best lead off hitter we ever had.
4 Seam, The Marlins paid their 23 million of the deal. The Braves are now responsible for his entire contract. Which means unless he pitches like an all-star he will be a waste of money.
I agree with Petros…
The last couple of years, we’ve been a better offensive team. The year with Sheffield, Druw, Castilla etc, we had one of the best offensive teams ever if you’re going by the stats…
This year again we’re one of the top offensive teams…we got Chip and McCann trying for a batting title..we got Andruw in the top 5 of rbi…last year Andruw led the league in homers..
Don’t get me wrong, all the offense is great. But…the foundation of our streak, was pitching. Ask anyone about the Braves, and the streak, and pitching will come to mind.
Maddux, Glavine, Smoltz, Avery, Neagle, Millwood, Burkett…guys like Marquis and Perez contributing…Russ Ortiz and Jaret Wright giving career years…Hampton…
In the bullpen guys like Wohlers, Rocker, Lightenberg, Karsay, Reed…Hammond, Remlinger…etc etc etc..
We need to get the focus back on pitching, because it’s no coincidence that our pitching is afwul and our streak is basically over..
Isn’t there a third team involved. Colorado I think.
I don’t want a great lead-off hitter, I want a disciplined one, I want disciplined hiiters. Too much to ask?
It was sort of inevitable that the Braves would have a year where everything went wrong–they had a lot of years when everything went right. The Yankees don’t have that issue because they spend so much money and can go out and get anyone they want. The Braves aren’t in that situation anymore and JS has to scrambel and, yes, take a few chances. Those chances didn’t pay off this year. Really, the Braves have been in decline for a few years; the pitching has been getting worse for a while.
I have problems with the way JS has put the team together over the years. I disagree with the idea that he undervalues pitching–getting Hudson,putting Smoltz back into the rotation, and even getting Hampton was explicitly an effort to build the team around dominant starting pitching again. Obviously, it hasn’t worked. I think that over the years he has undervalued offense; the Braves generally lost in the playoffs because of their inability to score runs. But he has limited resources; he can’t go out and sign three free agent starters. The Braves were pretty lucky in the 90s; Glavine, Smoltz and Avery all became good at the same time and they were able to sign Maddux because no one wanted to play for Steinbrenner at the time. The point is that, while no one wants to acknowledge it, luck is a big factor in putting together a team unless you have huge resources. I’m not saying JS didn’t make any bad decisions, but his luck ran out this year.
Yes, it was a three team swap…Hampton went from Colorado to Florida to Atlanta. Florida for the past few years was to pay 23 million. In return, we gave Florida Tim Spooneybarger.
This is Mike Hampton’s contract.
8-Year worth 121M- he will make in 8M in 2001, 8.5M in 2002, 11M in 2003 (9M of that paid by FLA), 12M in 2004 (10M paid by FLA), 12.5M in 2005 (11M paid by FLA), 13.5M in 2006 (2M paid by COL), 14.5M in 2007 (2M paid by COL), 15M in 2008 (2.5M paid by COL), and in 2009 a Team Option worth 20M or 6M buyout (buyout would be paid by COL in 1.5M annual installments from 2009 to 2012)- + he receives a 20M Signing bonus that is deferred to the end of the contract- + 1M of signing bonus paid to charity by COL and other 19M paid in 10 annual installments at end of contract at 3% compounded interest-, paid as follows: 1.9M in 2009, 1.957M in 2010, 2.015M in 2001, 2.077M in 2012, 2.318M in 2013, 2.2M in 2014, 2.27M in 2015, 2.33M in 2016, 2.4M in 2017 and 2.48M in 2018- + Bonuses that he can make: 150K MVP WS, 100K Cy Young or MVP LCS, 50K for 2nd to 5th Cy Young voting finish or MVP LDS, and 25K All-Star selection or Gold Glove or Silver Slugger- + ATL will recoup about 7M of 2006 salary trhough an insurance policy on his contract because he will miss 2006 due to TJ surgery
Cool, thanks for the clarification
No problem.
That is one of the most complex contracts I have ever seen.
I bet Renteria’s is similar
scratch that…Renteria’s isn’t that bad
The Braves owe Hampton a ton of money, Grissom was just awful in 1995, Lofton was very good in Atlanta although spent some time on the DL, Moneyball is not centered around OBP, statistics are not deceptive unless you don’t understand what they mean…
Too much…
Chipper’s is kinda long.
Sorry Marc, but I’m still not convinced. You’re right, a lot of our playoff losses have resulted in our lack of offense. But I think credit needs to be given to the other teams pitching. Good pitching stops good offense, and thats what has happened to us in the playoffs. Whereas, in the mid 90s a much larger percentage of our payroll was directed to pitching. Remember in 96 when we were shipping guys out to hang on to Maddux and Glavine? Now we are shipping guys out to hang on to Jones and Jones (don’t get me wrong, I am huge chipper and andruw fan). I still think JS undervalues pitching as of late.
And the Mets wonder why Hampton bolted for Colorado. If someone offered me a contract like that, I’d pitch in Saskatoon.
See you guys later…
BTW if you need contracts go here.
http://mlb4u.com/
Well I don’t think you can argue on how the team was put together. They did win the division have been near the top of the league in runs scored over the last few years. They blew the Astros out in game two last year and were up 7-1 in the 8th inning of game four. Hampton, when healthy, has been decent to really good for the Braves. Hudson hasn’t been what we thought, but when he is on, he is great. Smotlz is still dominating. That gives you three all star level starters in your rotation, when healthy. Thomson is a solid fourth guy and HoRam/Davies are good fifth guys.
There just has been some injuries to most of these guys. Glavine and Maddux never got hurt and always made there start (except that one season for Maddux)
There isn’t any starting pitching out there for the Braves to get. The bullpen is a bunch of cast offs filling in for guys. This season has jsut been bad luck.
what kind of numbers would hampton have to put up the next two years for us to pick up the 2009 option? i’m not sure we’d do it if he won two consecutive cy youngs.
I dont think we will pick up his option no matter what. If he pitches great hopefully we would unload him and his contract to the 1st bidder. If he pitches bad, well then we dont have to worry about it.
Kyle, I agree. No matter what he’s not with us in 09
No we wouldn’t..hopefully. Hampton can pitch really well when he hits the zone. But overall he is really inconsistent. A few years ago he had a really great second half…but that is the best we can get from him…a good half? His consistency will only get worse after tommy john surgury. He’s worth having if we only pay him 2 mil but not if we pay him 12 mil….my personal opinion.
for some reason, I thought 2008 was an option year. I guess not, he had better win us 2 cy youngs making that much $$$$
The Braves allegedly amortized Hampton’s contract, which means that what they owe him has been spread out evenly over the life of the contract, to the tune of $8M per, IIRC. Not sure how this affects his option year.
Jeremy, where did you read this or get this info from. $8 mil isn’t that bad, if he’s productive. That’s Reitsma, Thomson, Sosa’s combined contracts. What’s Horacio look like after this year. Does he have a year of arb or is he a FA?
That’s always been reported, that the Braves were averaging out what they owed Hampton and putting money in escrow. I am not convinced that the suits will actually look at it this way. Knowing them as I do, I fully expect that they will now say (after charging $8 million a year against payroll since Hampton came over) that that’s not real money and now they have to count everything he’s owed.
I wonder if Mike just sits at home and laughs everytime he thinks about his contract..
Well, fellas, I’m gone. It’s been real. Enjoy today’s off-day. Heck, I know I will. This season, the braves have only won 3 games on a Thursday…not that I’m a stats junkie like most people are. I’m old school baseball analysis.
Anyways, peace. Talk to ya later.
Remember this guy?
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=2545634
God, what a waste. All that talent, down the drain, or in this case, injected in the arm.
As for Hampton, the Braves won’t pick up his option, but could try to resign him at a lower price.
If you’re gonna kill yourself like that, at least write some good songs first.
You guys want to hear something funny and sad at the same time?
In order for the Braves to catch up to the mets in the NL east, the Mets would have to play .500 ball. While the Braves would have to go 42-7
How the hell did we come to this?
Injuries, bad luck, kismet…all of the above.
Oswalt negotiations started yesterday
the team opened negotiations and offered 3/37.5 and he wants 5/75, so much for us trying to get him as a FA.
I guess with the Braves not playing tonight, maybe we can watch some good baseball!
Strangely, today my mind is on SEC football. Funny how that happens every August…
I’m going to Yankee Stadium tomorrow night for a little Angels/Yanks action (another always-good AL matchup). Gonna see that Joe Saunders kid pitch for the Halos.
Funny, in all my time in NY & going to Yankee games, the Angels are the one team that gets universal respect from Yankee fans. They do not shrivel when they come here. The games are usually very good, very entertaining and often come down to the last pitch.
The NL, I find this year, just depresses me. Not only are the Mets on top, which is bad enough, but they’re doing it in a year when everyone is sub-sub-sub-par. It’s tough for me to sit down & watch an NL game that doesn’t involve the Braves these days.
Is there any young talent that might get a sept. call-up, that will be worth watching? I say we call-up a whole new pitching staff from single and double. We let what good pitchers we have get a head start on vacation, and just let the rest go.
single and double A that is
we should call up Matt Wright, WIll Start up, Matt Harrison, and Jo Jo Reyes. None are major league ready, but I dont think one month will kill them like it did Joey Devine.
Why start their arbitration/free agency clocks now?
good point
think Kevin Barry will be called back for a start?
4Seam, RE: #45:
Where’s the GM’s son? Surely he must also be allowed to be an Atlanta Brave, once before daddy retires. The only problem is: Does Bobby bench him (to “learn”), or does he crack the Opening Day Lineup?
(Not like we need a 5th Starter in Lima anyway…)
Continuing what 4seam said, I agree 100%. The one thing that stood out to me the most when I watch a team like the Tigers play is the ability, of almost every hitter in their lineup, to work a count. Maybe we can send Frenchy to the Tigers for a year and they can teach him some discipline.
We need to trade some of our pitchers for Don Slaught. Or Leon Durham for that matter, he’s in the minors so I am sure he would jump at the chance to replace Pendleton.
As I said a couple of days ago, if anyone is taken off the 40-man roster in order to give L’il Jonny major league service time, Schuerholz and anyone else who participated in that travesty should be fired. TW wouldn’t even have to pay them off, because it would be for cause.
i blame this season on the fact that they changed the way the names are put on the back of the jerseys
I blame the season on Marc Fein..
Somehow I don’t think TimeWarner would care. I don’t think they ever really pay attention to Schuerholz as long as he doesn’t go over 80 million.
We unloaded the “SpoonBerger?, no wonder we suck!
“Where’s the GM’s son? Surely he must also be allowed to be an Atlanta Brave, once before daddy retires. The only problem is: Does Bobby bench him (to “learn”), or does he crack the Opening Day Lineup?
(Not like we need a 5th Starter in Lima anyway…)”
JS jr. is Sratchyass….
Marc Fein does what exactly?
Is it just an occasional 30 second update on what the Devil Rays did to the Mariners?
Does he do “anything” else?
BTW, the Braves aren’t the only team with a lousy bullpen. I went to the Nats-Marlins game last night and a 4-2 game i nthe sixth ended 9-6. The Marlins brought in a relief pitcher with a 6-2 lead and he proceeded to walk the bases loaded. (Sound familiar?) Brian Moehler got the win even though he allowed all his inherited runners to score plus one of his own. The Nats bullpen, of course, was worse–Wes Helms drove in the winning runs,which tells you something. Baseball has become like slow-pitch softball.