ESPN.com – MLB – Box Score – Braves at Cardinals
Here’s a little bit of trivia for you: The Falcons failed to score more than 11 points in three of their final five games last year. Twice they scored six or fewer.
The Braves’ line today: 2 3 1 2 2 3 0 1 0 Lot of crooked numbers there. The Braves are on one of the great offensive runs of all time right now. The last team to score ten or more runs in five consecutive games had Babe Ruth and Lou Gehrig on it. Andruw started the scoring with a two-run homer in the first, and capped it with a solo homer in the eighth; he finished 5-5 with six RBI and three runs scored; the only bad thing was that he was on deck when Chipper made the final out of the ninth, so he didn’t get a chance to go 6-6, maybe with a triple (which would have given him the cycle).
Six other starters had two hits apiece — Betemit, Renteria, Chipper, McCann, LaRoche, and Thormann. LaRoche, Chipper, and McCann had homers; the latter has now homered in four straight. Francoeur was hitless but did it really matter?
Hudson looked really good through five — allowing just one run and retiring the first eleven. But with two out in the sixth he had one of his Episodes and allowed four runs, and the Vulture had to come in to finish the inning. Yates and Moylan finished it; the latter is expected to go down tomorrow.
I’m holding out hope they send Sosa over Moylan down.
Send Orr down!
Who needs a closer when you score 15
Braves have 98 hits over their last 6 games.
Holy mother of pearl.
Episodes, Mac? I like it! That I can smile about it says that we won 14-5 and that we’ve been scoring a ton.
Smitty,
You’re right! Just keep the Red Bull on ice for the offense.
It’s true our new closer is McCann. he seals the deal in the 5th inning
If any Met/Yankee/Red Sock went 5-5 with 6 rbi’s… Espn’s headquarters would explode..
One thing from the game puzzles me. Why did LaRussa keep Marquis in for so long? I think he gave up 12 runs and pitched 5 full innings. He either gave up or he really has no confidence in his bullpen.
A few other notes:
I think McBride is officially the anti-Gryboski. I read something where he allows one of the lowest percentages of inherited runners to score. Of course his ERA stinks. Also, I’m actually starting to like Tyler Yates.
If Yates isn’t careful Bobby will try him at closer, thus ending his career.
Oh wait, I forgot McCann is the new Closer
Especially if it was David Wright, ESPN’s favorite Yankee/Red Sox/Met.
Wryn, Orr hasn’t cost the Braves nearly as many runs or games as Sosa. Moylan is a step up on Sosa, and maybe a stint in the minors can help Sosa.
Even though ESPN overexposes Wright, he’s an easy and classy kid to like. Does play the game the right way. But, he’s a Met so ESPn loves him.
I think LaRussa saw the game was gone and was just trying to save the bullpen.
Has anyone seen the Final Score show on FSN? It is Sports center, but with 854 things going on around the screan. fI am not srue if i like it, but it may be a step up on Sports Center.
Two questions I had coming out of this one…
Should Marcus get familiar with Wally Pipp? Betemit is 10-20 since taking over. Big step up from “I hate hitting leadoff and always will” boy.
Concidence that Hudson went south as soon as Pratt checked in? I’d like it to be cause and effect since that would give hope that Hudson could come around.
Otherwise this is just spooky. I feel like in 10 years we could be watching some crappy HBO movie about the Braves bat juicing scandal of ’06 or something.
TD,
LaRussa left Marquis in there so he could eat up some innings, His prized pitcher will be going tomorrow and he wants the bullpen for Carpenter if needed.(which he will, no one can stop us!!)
I think the fact that Hudson had a touchdown lead & was pitching on short rest might’ve had something to do with his sudden el foldo.
The 1930 Yankees aren’t famous, because they finished third, but that’s because they had no pitching. They scored more runs than the 1927 club, more than all but two modern clubs, both Yankees teams of the same era.
I could understand LaRussa leaving Marquis in for 4 innings and 7 or 8 runs, but 5+ innings and 12 runs is a little harsh.
That whole 1930 season is pretty amazing for offense, actually. I have that season in APBA & every contest is like a beer-league softball game. Except for maybe Dazzy Vance & Lefty Grove (or to a lesser degree, Wes Farrell & Alvin Crowder), there’s very little good pitching.
Several teams batted over .300. Atlantan Bill Terry hit .401, the last NL guy to do it. Hack Wilson, of course, was out of his mind with 56 HRs & the newly amended 191 RBI. The Cards don’t have a lotta power, but they spray hits all over the place. They even have guys on the bench hitting .350 & .375. Ruth & Gehrig are unstoppable. The A’s have Foxx, Simmons & Cochrane in their primes.
The Senators totally kick ass, but the Braves (despite Wally Berger) pretty much suck. I like playing the Phillies with Klein & O’Doul, but their team ERA is over 6.00.
If this Braves juggernaut continues, I might have to break the ’30 season out again.
I honestly believe that Andruw Jones could homer while sitting in a chair.
1894 was even more extreme. The entire NL hit .309. The Phillies hit .349 as a team, the Balitmore Orioles .343, and the Beaneaters (future Braves) .331. The entire league averaged over seven runs a game; the Braves’ 1220 runs that season are the all-time major league record. Hugh Duffy won the Triple Crown with 18 HR, 145 RBI, and a record .440 batting average.
Of course, the other extreme is pretty amazing, too. The Braves’ run-scoring low was 408 runs in 1906. Rafael Belliard hit better than the team’s starting catcher or second baseman. The team hit 16 home runs for the season; only two players hit more than one. No player with real playing time slugged .350, and just one had an OBP over .318.
Has anyone seen the Final Score show on FSN? It is Sports center, but with 854 things going on around the screan. fI am not srue if i like it, but it may be a step up on Sports Center.
I’ve seen it once or twice. The only thing I can tell that’s kept it from replacing sportcenter already is that it’s never on at the same time where I am, so it’s difficult to schedule it into my day. Other than that, it actually shows sports highlights, which is a big step up from sportcenter, in my book. No coors light silver spotlight, no budweiser hot seat. Just replays. I was actually quite surprised when I first saw it, because I kept expecting an end to the highlights, but never got one.
http://www.ajc.com/sports/content/sports/braves/stories/0719bravesstate.html?imw=Y
I was browsing through the stats of all the Braves, and I just found out that Marcus, Betemit, Chipper, Andruw, McCann, Frenchy, Adam, and Langy are all batting above .300 with runners at scoring position, while Edgar is batting over .280.
This is mighty impressive, especially Andruw’s improvement in driving in runners.
…and the Braves lead the major in batting average with runners at scoring position with 2 outs…at .292…
“No coors light silver spotlight, no budweiser hot seat.”
What about the gatorade ultimate highlight?
What about the burger kings of the day?
Does anyone call in on the Mobile ESPN hotline?
Is it preceded by Pardon the Interuption presented by Red Stripe, which is preceded by Around the Horn present by Nissan which is preceded by Jim Rome is burning which is brought to you by Gilette, the best a man can get?
NO!
Dan-
You beat me to the punch posting the AJC Link.
Schuerholz always has an excuse, doesn’t he?
If John Smoltz is speaking out, that helps a lot more then me, kc, Mac, Davey, AAR, Jenny or anyone else…we are all thrilled at the Braves scoring 10+ a night, but there’s no way they can keep this pace up. I can only think they are trying to keep this pace up until JS gets them some bullpen help and then they may let off the gas a little…though I hope they don’t.
Again, a lot of naysayers keep saying the Braves have no shot at the WC (including Marriotti and Page on ATH yesterday…Cowlishaw and Adande both said the Braves are absolutely to be taken seriously) and they keep listing “the 7 teams”.
The important number is 5 games. If the Braves keep focusing, night after night, on hitting the Baseball and winning game to game, I think over the next several weeks, they can at least climb past 3, maybe 4 of the teams. It’s like tearing a building down, brick by brick.
The Braves have no choice but to treat every single game as a “must win”. Now obviously, they are not going to win every game the rest of this season (if that happened, we would end up with the best record in Baseball), but the Braves can win far more then they lose if they treat every night importantly. And that means the little things too such as LaRoche hustling and covering a bag; not taking the opponent lightly (Sosa!) when you have a 10 run lead and making sure the pitchers throw strikes.
Plus, like the last few nights, it means if we do build a huge lead, we need to makre sure and pull our regulars out early (especially on a hot July night) and get the Pratts and Langerhans and Orrs and Diaz’s of the world into the game. I would rather have Brayan Pena for Pratt, but whatever…as long as Bobby pulls McCann in the 6th or 7th with a huge lead, I am all for that because why not have McCann resting, and drinking a Gatorade with a cool towel over his head as early as possible.
Re: Giles as Wally Pipp
And this why if the Braves could find the right deal to trade Marcus, that also nets us some stud relievers, then absolutely take the deal.
Giles has shown above & beyond that while he has been an All Star and is capable of hitting .290, he has genuinely failed as a leadoff hitter. If Bobby would have used him in the #2 hole, maybe things would be different. But if Marcus plays, he’s going to be used leadoff.
That said, the Braves are killing people right now and maybe they’d be doing that anyway with Marcus, but I think there also has to be an added level of confidence (even if the players would never admit it) of having Betemit lead off. Here’s a smart, patient, switch hitter who hits like a professional…not the jumpy, swing at the first pitch style of Giles.
The bottom line is if Giles was healthy this weekend, I still don’t see how Cox could mess with this linup. Betemit has been awesome and I would hate to see Giles back in there with the way Wilson is hitting.
And while I NEVER EVER root for injuries (and anyone who does is wrong to do so), I am in NO RUSH for any excuse to have Betemit out of the lineup.
Tonights pitching matchup looks very interesting. I personally want to see Jason Shiell pitch(curosity) I hope we can keep this offense rolling because we will need it against Chris Carpenter.(Pitched a complete game shutout and only surrending 2 hits.)
http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/news;_ylt=AjwkZP7F7Aa3agcMNFLwHLERvLYF?slug=ap-oneil-oldestpro&prov=ap&type=lgns
LOL, he wore blue jeans.
Well after reading the whole article I feel like a complete ass. Sorry Mr. O’neil.
If the Braves are going to trade Giles, I would hope it better not be for anything less than Nathan
I am pretty sure that Minnesota will not trade Joe Nathan. They are an up and coming team(Mostly because of Liriano) and they really don’t have anyone else that can replace him.
Yes, but does that Final Score show have “My Wish” — a collaborative effort between Sportscenter and the Make-A-Wish Foundation that will chronicle the granting of unique sports-related wishes for 10 children?
One person who I’d like the see the Braves get, but doubt would be traded would be Chris Ray.
Plus they seem to be plenty happy with their current 2nd baseman. Luis Castillo is hitting .280 and a .340 OPS.
I think Mike Gonzalez is a good option. Young, talented. and cheap enough said. But it might be tough to get him.
Jay,
I have mentioned Mike Gonzalez several times as have others. The problem is I don’t know if we have anything Pitrsburgh wants or needs. They are pretty set at 2nd Base and would they really be interested in John Thomson at this point? Probably not.
If healthy, we’d probably have to deal Kyle Davies to get something done.
I am starting to think we may never be able to land a closer or any stud reliever who could be a closer for us because the teams that have an excess of relief arms (Pittsburgh, Oakland, White Sox, Minnesota), know they have a valuable commodity that everyone else needs–and they know contending teams are desparate.
I said over the phone last night that knowing Steinbrenner, he would do this if we offered it:
Tim Hudson for Philip Hughes & Kyle Farnsworth–I would be happy to say throw in langerhans (since they need an outfielder) to get that done!
(and yes…I can’t stand the traitor Farnsworth but hey, we need a closer).
Good points, but the reason why I brought up Gonzalez once again is because he is really the only “closer” that is pitching good and is on a team that sucks, I know it that the chances of landing him or someone like him are slim to none.(probally closer to none) One way I did mention that could be possible is a three way trade with us, Pitt, and SD.
Atl- Mike Gonzalez
SD- Joe Randa
Pitt- prospects from both teams( I don’t really know who.)
We would get a closer, San Diego would get a pretty good 3B, and Pitt would have more prospects to build on for the future.
Why not trade Anthony Lerew for Mike Gonzalez?
Of course it is too good to last–but that does not mean that the last 5 games point to an exciting future. The Wild Card is within reach and that might even be a better place for the Braves to begin the playoffs…It would be great to wack the Cardinals one last time, because we could see them in the playoffs.
I think that trading Giles might make sense–but only for the right price. Clearly, the Braves still need help in the bullpen….
I don’t think it had anything to do with Pratt. It has been unbelieveably hot and humid across the midwest. It was still 95 degrees at 9:15 their time!! And that’s not heat index, that’s real temperature
Pratt’s caught at least one of Tim’s best games and Tim also has had that funny cramping problem in the past. I’m not surprised he couldn’t go very long, 3 days rest aside.
Colorado has interest in Sosa, please JS send him away for anything? Shealy would be nice
http://www.denverpost.com/rockies/ci_4068101
This trade happened last night around midnight.
CLE- Brian Sikorski
SD- Mike Adams
Not very notable but heh, it’s a trade.
Yea Shealy won’t get any playing time in Colorado with Todd Helton so at least they would get something for him.( Even if it is Sosa.)
BTW, tune into Cold Pizza today they will be debating just how good the Braves are. Amazing 2 weeks ago we were dead now we are getting so much love from ESPN.
Schuerholz always has an excuse, doesn’t he?
You’re the guy he’s talking about…wanting to “make a splash” with some fantastic trade. The man just said he’s been on the phone for weeks. How many trade scenarios posted here have been carried out by Schuerholz? ZERO. Talk about a number that’s worse than Francoeur’s OBP? .000 is it.
We’ll find out something if/when it happens. But if he doesn’t make a trade, it’s because nothing worked out for the team–not because he’s sitting on his butt with his cell phone turned off.
You won’t get much argument from people here that he isn’t one of the best sports executives of our generation. Now he’s a jackass because we don’t have limousines waiting outside for Shields, Figgins, Crawford, Mike Gonzalez, etc., etc.?? And you want to trade Hudson for Farnsworth?? Please. That is absolutely ridiculous. Climb down from the ledge and make some sense.
Whatever we do…we better not pick Ray King back up…
hoboken,
As has been stated by myself and others on here, please play nicely. We all love the Braves and can talk without malice towards one another.
And I will state this again for the record my friend:
I am one of about 20-25 BravesJournal bloggers who has complained about JS on here.
Re: JS being “on the phone for about a month”–why should any of us believe that, frankly, consideringthe last 3 years. He made some fine decisions and some other decisions that worked out well for him in the past.
But the last few years, are you really willing to stand by the fact that he’s done such a bang up job as General Manager?
We have ALL talked about the fact that instead of writing his damned book, he should have gotten us relief help last Winter. He made a below half hearted attempt.
So frankly, even if he’s on the phone all the time this month and he’s telling the truth, that doesn’t excuse the fact that we went into Spring Training with Chris Reitsma as the designated closer and otehr also ran pitchers to rely on.
I am excited what I am seeing from the Braves offense and feeling as though the top 4 in our rotation are settling into a consistent groove. But it will all be for naught if the current bullpen doesn’t receive some new faces before the deadline.
So, yeah, you can continue to go after me for saying what almost everyone on here has said about JS, and even Smoltz is complaining. And once again, if JS had taken care of business and focused less on his book, we might have a better reliever or two back in December.
Alex R. also included Phillip Hughes in the trade with the Yankees. Hughes is one of the most highley treasured pitching prospects out there. I am not saying that JS is just sitting on his ass just because he hasn’t made a deal thus far. But when he keeps making comments that our bullpen can win when they obviously can’t it gets extremely frustrating. We need bullpen help and a closer that much is clear and it has been proven that we don’t have a shut down guy currently in our farm systems so he has to make a deal for us to have any chance of a postseason birth. Most of the trades that are mentioned on this forum are not ridiculous, most of them are reasonable. I for one only bother trades that can benefit all teams involved.
I also think it’s a lot to expect from the Braves offense to keep this pace up. Believe me, i would love to score 12, 13 runs a night. Go boys…but it’s not realistic. At some point, there’s going to be 5-4 or 3-2 games again and we need relievers, even if it means trading a Marcus Giles to get them.
Jay,
realistically, there’s no way we could get Hughes unless we dealt a Hudson and a Giles. The Yankees won’t budge on him for Abreu even. I more was being sarcastic since there’s no chance we will get him.
That being said, I think it could be realistic to get a Mike Gonzalez but we are going to have to put togetehr an attractive package.
And yes, Jay, you are 100% on the $ with something else you said…JS has been claiming the bullpen will be “fine” or was “fine” before Smoltz came out publicly and made his statement. So, when the most veteran leader on our team complains, that should carry more weight then any one of us!!!
Alex,
C’mon, you have no idea what JS does or doesn’t do. Yes, he hasn’t been the most active, but the Braves also haven’t had the money to go after players with big salaries–and those are the guys most likely to be traded. I have always felt that JS undervalued offense and relief pitching over the years and that hasn’t changed. But, to judge him because he hasn’t made some miraculous trade is unfair. At this point, teams aren’t going to let him rape them like he did to the Padres to get Fred McGriff. Times have changed–would you want him to make a trade like the Reds did to get relief help? As for what he did over the offseason, the criticism probably has some validity, but it wasn’t like he had a ton of money to go sign Billy Wagner.
As for Giles, I don’t buy that he has been a failure as a leadoff hitter. His OBP is about the same as Furcal’s and his arc this year is very similar to Furcal’s last year–slow start and coming on strong. Plus, he has become an excellent second baseman. If you put Betemit at second, which he is still learning, you will seriously weaken the defense–and a team with weak pitching can’t afford also to have poor defense, unless they keep scoring 15 runs a game. Moreover, if you trade Giles and make Betemit a starter, you reduce the depth and weaken the bench. So, if you are going to trade Giles, it had better be a blockbuster deal. And I can’t see trading a Marcus Giles for any middle relief pitcher, no matter who it is. These guys are notoriously inconsistent.
Don’t say “EVERYONE” agrees with you about JS, Alex. I surely don’t. I wish that something could be done to address the bullpen, but if the market’s not there to make a good deal, I trust JS to make the right decision (see: Reds/Nats trade). And the whole “he pays more attention to his book than to the Braves” argument is ridiculous and getting old. I don’t think there’s any way that’s correct.
I’ll give you guys the bullpen, but to say JS has made no attempt to improve the team this past winter or in prior years is only an assumption, and an offensive one at that. I will say that I can’t possibly believe that JS, Cox, McDowell, et al truly, truly thought that Reitsma was our best option in the back of the ‘pen going into this season. I have to believe that they at least tried other avenues, which JS detractors seem to disagree with–that he wasted the winter writing/finishing his book.
Philip Hughes is also a 19 or 20 year old single-A pitcher. He wouldn’t impact a playoff run this year and is at least two years away, during which injuries and poor performance could render him useless to the big league club in ’08 or ’09. So that trade, at least for purposes of making a WC run this year, is a bit far-fetched.
I will also apologize, Alex, for being harsh. If you would, please consider the message and not the tone.
Hard to believe there is anyone I would rather keep Jorge Sosa than get, but a King-Sosa trade would be horrible for the Braves.
Hoboken,
Thanks–and no problem at all. I definitely respect that we will all agree to disagree sometimes and I definitely respect everyone’s opinion in here.
Stu–yes, I hear you, I disagree, but I hear you. I realize the book thing has been beat to death as an argument but I stand by that as valid in terms of overall distractions. John Schuerholz is paid to be Braves General Manager. It may not be everyone’s opinion, but many of us feel that JS should be waiting until retirement to write books. I read the book, yes, but could I have waited 3-5 years for that book? Absolutely.
Everyone keeps bring up budgetary issues. I completely get that. I understand and respect the reality we are in 2006 with the Braves payroll–it’s not 1995 anymore (sadly).
However, as has been stated, the names bantied about like Mike Gonzalez, or the guy i have trumpeted for 4 months now, Justin Duscherer (plus Scot Shields) are all cheap and young. They are all 10X better then anything we have.
My point is to get a Duscherer or Shields type of talent, we may have to part with a Giles. I know that may make some cringe, and some disagree, but I agree with what Joe Torre has said…no one is more important to the Yankees success then Mariano Rivera. Past and present and future.
Torre is absolutely right. It seems (out loud) incredulous to trade a past All Star 2nd baseman for a young fireballer who doesn’t have saves racked up–but it’s only because (with Oakland for example) they already have Huston Street in the role. I think most people would agree that a pitcher with the kind of stuff Justin Duscherer has he could have 31 saves right now if he had been in that role.
No one is a closer until you make them a closer. Reitsma, even when healthy, never had closer type stuff. But we “called him” a closer because that’s who we had or wanted to try in that role. (we meaning management and Cox).
Again, sorry for being long winded, but Stu, I mainly am trying to say that while I don’t want to make an ill advised reds type of trade, I do think we are going to have to give up some valuable pieces if we are going to get 1-2 arms that will turn our bullpen around.
I agree 100% with Stu! People make it sound like he is just sitting around, picked up the paper one day and saw Smoltz was quoted and said, “John Smoltz! Hey! I know him!”
Give me a break!
I don’t love Ray King but when mac calls Jorge Sosa ‘Kim Jong Il’, that’s not a compliment. The bottom line is King had a pretty good year his time with the Braves…so it maybe a “change of scenery” deal that could help both pitchers.
realistically, I think Sosa is going to get lit up wherever he pitches but King MIGHT just contribute something to our bullpen. Sosa is pretty much throwing meatballs.
I also read something into Cox’s mound visit on Monday…Cox, who is probably the most patient Manager in the history of Baseball with any of his players (and something I have criticized him on some guys before but it’s also a quality to admire many times) openly seems to have lost patience with Sosa and his overall effort and concentration out there. I think Bobby and Roger seem to be kinda “done” with Sosa and again, a change of scenery is required.
The same maybe tru with Ray King in Denver. I imagine if Bobby & Clint Hurdle had a phone chat recently, it was probably something to the effect of “I will take your problem guy if you take my problem guy–ok, cool.”
Jayson Stark on Mike&Mike today mentioned that the Giants might be willing to trade Jason Schmidt if they got back a starting pitcher and some other players. What about Hudson and a minor leaguer or two of no importance for Schmidt? That would give the Braves 2 dominant starting pitchers at the front of their rotation and would get them out of Hudson’s way overpriced contract. They could then try to extend Schmidt who is a freeagent after this year or go after Barry Zito or some other free agent starter in the offseason.
John Shuerholz almost never makes a move until right before the trading deadline, so there isn’t any surprise nothing has happened yet. Plus it takes two to make a trade. We are all aware of how barren the Braves’ minor league system is this year with most of the best players having been called up to the big leagues last year. Teams weren’t going to trade their closer for crappy AAA players in May or June, and the Braves weren’t in position to decide to to trade away prospects like James, Salty, or Betemit to make a playoff run back then when they were losing almost every game. Cut Shuerholz some slack. Last year the Braves were in a very similar situation and he pulled off the Farnsworth trade which worked very well until Game 4 of the Division Series.
Again..I grant you I maybe off base on Schuerholz ‘sitting around’ right now. Fine, mea culpa.
However, my bigger complaint comes from the fact that more should have been done last Winter. Many people, not just me, have complained about our bullpen decisions the last few years during the off season.
THE BRAVES DONT’ WANT FREAKIN’ KYLE FARNSWORTH…..he didn’t want to pitch here, hince the reason he left, he didnt’ want to be the closer, and JS didn’t exactly like the “no call, no show” from his agent. LET THAT “DREAM” DIE PEOPLE!
King for Sosa?? Ok, so lets see, its basically which is a better trade.
Sosa for a box of baseballs and a few bats
Sosa for King
Tough one.
I don’t see the Giants wanting to take on a not-young pitcher with a lot of money left on his deal. I think when they say they probably want a starter in return, they mean a young and/or inexpensive option.
That said, if we could turn Hudson + Prospect X into Schmidt, I might cry tears of joy.
The “probably” in that second sentence was supposed to go between “they” and “mean,” not between “they” and “want.” In case anyone cares.
Smitty, that was also my point. The guy’s not sitting around drinking beer and eating popcorn.
Someone made a McGriff allusion……..with restricted payrolls, arbitration considerations, and on the personnel side, improved scouting, there’s no way in ’06 he trades 2 or 3 asswipers (excuse my french) for even a set-up guy, let alone a closer or a bat, like he did in that deal. And in 2006, Jorge Sosa and Chris Reitsma have been asswipers.
First off, let’s send Sosa to Colorado for a new bullpen catcher. That would help the bullpen more than any arm we could get for Sosa. Not only would he be off the roster, but he would also be contributing to the team.
Secondly, I don’t think for a second that JS isn’t trying to stir something up. I to am tired of the book talk. I don’t believe that his book is THE reason why our bullpen sucks. The problem is that there are so few teams out of the running and an extremely tough market for relief help. At the end of the day I would rather not make a move than to overpay for bullpen help. The only guy I think we should/could trade for substantial help is Giles, but who of the sellers on the market will want him? This is not an easy situation. Hopefully JS has a creative solution brewing.
I would trade Sosa for King, for that matter I would trade Sosa for anyone. Who else are we going to get for him. Sosa is useless to us and King might be as well, but we could at least find out. I would rather see anyone in a Braves uni than Sosa right now. It’s either trade him or send him down.
Who were we going to get this winter? We went after a few guys that turned us down for more money.
Josh,
You mentioned you’d “rather not overpay for bullpen help” but then you’d rather our ‘current’ bullpen be the bullets in our gun as we head down the stretch?
Again, let me re-state something very profound that Joe Torre said…Mariano Rivera has been the #1 most important guy to the Yankees the last several years. More then every big name pitcher and hitter they have had come through there–and I agree with him.
A stat I mentioned previously was that there were anywhere from 12-18 losses we could tie directly to the bullpen this year. And while even the best closers will always blow some games, if we even had 1 extra great arm in the pen, a solid, legit closer, we might be about 12 games better right now.
In my mind, it’s absolutely worth trading a Giles to get that kind of arm that night after night, can shut down a 5-4 lead for us.
We simply cannot rely on scoring 12 a night…this offense streak will end and since we are facing Cris Carpenter, there’s a decent chance we won’t score 12 tonight.
Alex, Mariano Rivera is not coming through that door. Seriously, no one of that caliber is on the market (has anyone else of that caliber ever even existed?), so you can’t get one for “a Giles.”
I understand and agree with you that Shields or Duchescherer or Linebrink would be an improvement, but those guys are highly regarded throughout all of baseball. Plus, all of their teams are in contention. They would not come cheap. It’s going to take more than just Giles to get a deal for one of those guys done.
I honestly think John Schuerholz could try a little harder. Offseason, now he needs to get a closer ASAP. But the truth is, we shouldn’t even be talking about a closer. John Schuerholz had an entire offseason to sign somebody or trade, and he didn’t do it. No excuses.
Stu,
No question…you are 100% right that it will take more. But I am justb in the camp of saying I am willing. Ideally, we would get one of the pitchers you mentioned and sign said pitcher to an extension.
I know the Braves have been in the business in the past of not offering “multi year” deals to relievers, but I think recent history has shown that if you can find a high calibre arm that can be a stud closer for you, it’s worth the risk.
Plus, by dealing Giles, that will free up even more payroll and we are still under budget right now anyway.
I also think that outside of say an Elvis Andrus, there’s really no one in our farm system these days that should be considered untouchable. And yes, even Saltamacchia because he doesn’t have a position anytime soon and dealing a Salty to net a stud relief arm does the Major League club a ton of good.
Again, this is just my personal opinion, not asking anyone to agree.
Also, Stu, I agree, Rivera isn’t walking through the door but I think the bigger picture Torre was painting was how valueable it is to have a guy at the end of a game you implicitly trust.
And while there is no guarantee a Scot Shield could be as good, his peripherals and statistics and age suggest that we would have reason for optimism that he could be a terrific closer for us if we aquired him.
After reading the article yesterday about Todd Jones, I really think JS dropped the ball in the off-season. I’m not saying Jones would have been the second coming of Rivera, but he would of been an improvement. Also, you can’t use his Detroit contract to say we would of had to over pay him. He would have taken less for a 2 year contract in Atlanta.
7 game win streak and offensive explosion = more panic and friction on this site (there was less bickering in June)
Tyler Yates for closer!
red sox and rockies are talking,
King for Tavarez
Dans,
You are absolutely right on both fronts.
One, that Todd Jones (a Georgia native) should have been our closer. I am not comfortable with some of the insensitive remarks he’s made off the field, so that’s a mixed bag. But he would certainly be a consistent closer for us.
Two, the last thing in the world I have wanted, especially with the current bliss of the offensive explosion and winning streak, is to fight w/ anyone in here. I know I am critical of some Braves player or management at times, but feel very strongly that we should all be respectful to one another in here.
And hey, at the end of the day, we all love the Braves (as Stu has said in the past–he’s absolutely right) and that’s the reaosn we are all here in the first place.
Plus, it’s hard not feel better about things when the Braves are kicking Tony LaRussa’s a–.
I’d like to know how desperate people are for a trade here. Would you be willing for us to make a bad trade to get the bullpen help necessary to get us to the playoffs? Something like Devine + KJ + low-A projectable arm for a mid-level-but-solid closer? I mean, that would solidify the pen, but I certainly wouldn’t want us to surrender one of our top arms and top bats for that.
I guess the question is this: if a good trade isn’t available, do you want JS to make a “bad” one that could benefit us this year but will not be in our long-term interest?
And regarding Jones, MAYBE 2 year, $4 mil would been an okay deal to offer, but I wouldn’t have supported anything more expensive than that 8 months ago. He just didn’t seem like a good guy to take a risk on.
I still don’t want Todd Jones. 5.5 ERA and questionable peripherals (only 3 Ks per 9 and 1+ hit per inning). Even in the AL, that is scary. He might make the pen better, but saves are overrated. Todd Jones is not what makes this pen respectable. Easy for me to say, though – I didn’t want him in the offseason.
mraver, I would sub Lerew for Devine and make that deal in a heart beat. I think when KJ shows he is healthy we will deal him. I am fine with a Thorman/Diaz platoon, both guys look good so far.
If we could get a Justin Duscherer, Mike Gonzalez, Scot Linebrink, or Scot Shield for KJ, Devine and another low A arm, I would do that so fast I wouldn’t even blink.
I guess I don’t see how that’s a bad trade.
There’s no room in the outfield for Kelly Johnson. I like his ability to get on Base but Francouer and Andruw aren’t going anywhere and we also have Diaz, Thor and Langerhans…not that any of them are perfect. But the last thing we should worry about is hanging onto a 7th outfielder.
Second, Devine may become good at some point. But even if he does turn things around, would he ever be better then say a Duscherer or a Shields? Plus, one of those type of relievers could be a stud at the end of the bullpen, we could hopefully sign that person to remain closer for another 3+ years and that adds value too.
Devine and KJ aren’t doing anything for this team right now or even next year. But a 20-something already proven fireballer like a Scot Shields would pay enormous dividends for the ‘pen now and in the future?
I guess I don’t see how that package would be a bad deal at all for the Braves. I would be stunned if the Angels or Pirates or Padres would do that in fact.
Mike MacDougal….”Mac the Ninth”……Mike Gonzalez…….guys who are available, although I keep scanning the rumor list for a Nathan, Joe.
I hear WFAN radio conversations with Brian Cashman all the time & he’s basically said that Hughes isn’t going anywhere for anything. Despite signing Sheffield over Vladimir in ’04, Steinbrenner has begun to listen to sane people in recent times. Also, the Yankee starters have picked it up in recent weeks. Even Randy Johnson has had more good starts than bad, and Mussina & Wang are outstanding right now. They don’t need Hudson.
However, if we could get Farnsworth for very little & they’d pick up some of his contract, I’d consider him. As unpredictable as he is, he’s better than Sosa. The thought did cross my mind to re-acquire him, but that spoke more of our season of bullpen desperation than any baseball sense.
The Farnsworth idea pains me because he really dicked the Braves over in my opinion.
He barely got more money to be a set up guy in NY rather then be the closer near his hometown with the Braves. He basically chose the Yankees for, IMHO, for the “ESPN” factor because being a Yankee may mean you are seen hitting the NY night club circuit with Jeter and A-Rod.
So, while I cringe at the idea of bringing him back, I suppose I am personally desperate enough, given the state of our bullpen, to take the man back. We don’t have to like him, but if he comes in and gets save after save, he serves a purpose we need.
We can’t trade KJ because he is hurt.
We are not getting Farnsworth. I would rather have Sosa. I mean it, I hate Farnsworth. He is an overrated chump. At least Sosa can come in and pinch hit if we need him too.
Mike MacDougal seems like a good idea and could probably be had far easier. He’s certainly better then anyone we have as well.
Joey Devine has shown zero ability to be a quality major league pitcher. If we can trade him as part of a package to get a good reliever or starting pitcher, we will have robbed some team blind. That’s a trade JS should make in a heartbeat.
I saw on Talking Chop that the team era is actually the same in July as in June. That means when the hitting cools off (which it will) the miserable losing will begin again (I can’t wait to have Sosa coming in the save close games again). This team still needs a lot of pitching help before it can seriously be considered a contender.
Since Devine is only 20 or 21 years of age, I am willing to be the “glass half full guy” on him and admit he could hopefully turn it around and sitll have a good career.
But he’s not our Rivera nor will he ever be our Rivera or Wagner or Lidge; I am with you Ron, I would be more the happy to make Devine part of a multi player package to land an actual “proven” stud relief arm.
As I said earlier…I actually think our offense is trying to hold this team up and not take a breather until JS brings in some help in the pen. It’s almost like the guys are on a mission because Chipper, Edgar, Andruw et all know that if they don’t bang out at least 10 runs, it could be a complete disaster late in the game.
The hitting may cool, but the Braves will remain a top offensive team. They’re the top run scoring offense in the National league this year (as of yesterday). I think that should be taken seriously. If we can get some bullpen help, then a team that scores a ton of runs and has decent starters should be a contender.
Also, Devine HAS show ability. His strikeout numbers have been excellent (last year and this year). He’s 1 year from being drafted, and that’s too soon to expect him to be an elite MLB reliever. When he comes around, and i think he will, he’ll be good and cheap for years. I don’t see why we should lightly trade that away.
Also, does anyone know where I can find throwing stats for catchers, like stolen bases allowed and runners caught stealing for this season?
Unfortunately, Phil Hughes might be better than Hudson *right now*. I would absolutely trade him for Hughes + Farns, but the Yankees wouldn’t. It’s too bad Tim hasn’t pitched better to make it easier for us to move him. That contract is going to be an absolute albatross by the end 🙁
NO MORE FARNSWORTH…..SERIOUSLY PEOPLE, STOP IT!!
OK, get farnsworth and watch the team go to hell. His piss poor attitude, b/c:
A.) He doens’t want to be here, otherwise he would’ve taken the “glamour” role as a closer for the Braves, rather than become the set-up guy for Rivera.
B.) He’ll cause a stink b/c of subject ‘A’ and even though he might perform well, do we really, I mean really, want a guy who blew it for us, plain and simple, stunk it up in the game for which he was really traded for. For the love of all that is mighty, I think Sosa could’ve gotten Ausmus out, so NO MORE FARNSWORTH, HE DOESN’T WANT TO BE HERE, AND WE DON’T NEED HIM.
If we want to try and get a decent closer who actually is available, lets try Mike MacDougal and see if we can somehow get a David DeJesus or a Andy Sisco/Jeremy Affeldt as well.
MacDougal is a guy who has flown under the radar in the past and had a good year for a poor KC team last season. I’d target Mac and Gonzalez from Pittsburgh as possible bullpen guys for this team, although Gonzalez will probably come at a higher cost.
I think we should go after Kyle Farnsworth. What do you guys think?
Here’s why you trade Devine now if you can get a good reliever for him even assuming he eventually becomes a good major league pitcher: by the time (2 or 3 years from now) that Devine is ready for the majors, Smoltz will likely have retired or moved on, Andruw will likely have signed with a high payroll team, Chipper if he’s still playing will be at the end of his career, etc. Why hold onto a player who MIGHT be a good major league pitcher years from now when the team figures to be rebuilding when you can trade him now to compete this year and next year? It’s the same reason the Miner/Colon for Farnsworth trade last year was good. I certainly saw nothing from Devine last year or this year that makes me want to hold onto him.
I agree the Braves shouldn’t get Farnsworth back. He has proven he is at best setup man material and we have plenty of those already. We need that reliable 9th inning guy we’re missing not another question mark.
Funny Stu….ha
So by that reasoning we might as well trade the whole farm system, because by the time any of them are ready Chipper/Smoltz/Andruw will be gone and the Braves can just cease to exist.
I for one hope to be a Braves fan even after those guys retire, and I hope they hold on to some of the guys in the system that will make the future of the Braves bright.
I think we should change the word “choke” to “Farnsworth”
For example:
I was at Hooters the other day and saw a man Farnsworthing on a bone.
“He has proven he is at best setup man material and we have plenty of those already.”
Plenty of setup men? Who? Nobody in the pen is good enough to be a setup man on a non-Braves team.
Good thing you didn’t choose A-rod over Farnsworth.
that sentence might not be suitable for a family site then!
Actually yes. If we had the minor league players available to trade to fill the holes on the team for the next couple of years, we should definitely do it. There are always more quality minor leaguers to be drafted in the future, something John Shuerholz has been exceptionally good at. We already have young players at many positions, so we can afford to trade away our most promising minor league catchers, for instance. The key is to get back players who really help such as Renteria and not Dan Kolb.
Making trades is a lot like playing poker. If you are too eager you will be used. Saying no to a trade and folding and waiting for new cards are the keys. Waiting for the trade to come to you works, even if it is not as sexy.
But losers cry “Shut up and deal”
What’s wrong with Ken Ray as a setup man? 2.47 era, 1.17 whip, .194 baa. Paranto and Yates are adequate too. If we had a dominant closer and a LOOGY who actually could get lefties out, the bullpen would be in decent shape. Certainly not the best we’ve ever had, but good enough if we had starters that could go more than 5 innings.
We have Macay McBride, a lefty against whom lefties are hitting .180.I’m not sure a LOOGY is really what we need.
Ken Ray has a highish walk rate and gives up too many HRs. A low BAA is generally a bad sign for a pitcher, not a good one, unless you’re talking about a guy with a gigantic strikeout rate.
Yates walks a lot of guys, too.
Paranto’s numbers over his 30 big league innings are promising, though his K rate is a little high looking at his minor league numbers. I’ll give you him, but one is not “plenty”.
We can talk about how well Yates, Paranto, and Ray are pitching recently, but I still cringe everytime one of them goes in. I still have zero faith in anyone in our pen.
Jason Stark said that the Braves are agressively pursing two bullpen arms and that if we land these two said relievers that it will not only put us over the top. Any idea whom he is speaking ?
The fellows over at Rowland’s Office have a decent proposal, though Williamson has hit a rough patch.
I wouldn’t do that, nor would the Cubs. They would want WB for Williamson strait up.
Rumblings In Metland: I just overheard someone say, “Well, if they [the Braves] do make the playoffs, maybe it could be like 2000 where, y’know, somebody beats ’em in the first round & we won’t have to play them.”
Even with a double-digit lead, these people are still making puddles. Hysterical.
Smitty,
Do you have a link for Stark? If not, I will search the ESPN site but I am happy to hear JS is making an effort…I am not sure how much longer the offense can hold off the bullpen being in real situations until they crack!
Yates, Ray, Paronto.
These 3 are not necessarily hurting the team (though Paronto is my least favorite of the 3), but they are not helping them. Ray by default could be our set up man and it’s not awful, but I agree w/ Luke…theres a cringe factor when anyone from our bullpen comes in. For the closer role, we need a guy far superior in ability and talent then any of those 3 pitchers.
I also agree that McBride is a good LOOGY, but he’s incapable of getting righties out. In a good bullpen, McBride is only used as a Mike Myers or Steve Kline type in that speciliast role. In a bad bullpen like ours, he’s thrown out there more then he should and again, can’t really fault Cox because he has no reliever at all that’s reliable.
ububba,
I my opinion, you qualify for sainthood living among millions of Mets and Yankees fans. It must be the Bulldawg in you 😉
Stevie Phillips, on the ESPN podcast, said that Schuerholz would look for a reliever he could “build around”, not a rental player. This from the man who traded Isringhausen for Billy Taylor…
Here’s an idea: how about Kyle Davies for closer, when he returns? He has great stuff and he could be a real help in the bullpen. I’m thinking a sort of Jonathan Papelbon situation–good young prospect gets converted to closer because we have a very thin bullpen.
What do you guys think?
Alex, I saw it on Cold Pizza or something when I went home to eat. Sorry no link
Davies looked terrible in the pen last year. that is why we started him in the rotation this season
That’s true, Smitty – I’d forgotten that. Still, he has a mid-90s fastball and a big-time hammer. I still think he’s better than just about anyone we have out there.
Davies was still only 22 last year; honestly, it’s not the worst idea I have heard. Especially if Jason Shiell proves to be a solid #5 guy.
Davies does have the stuff and why not? When healthy, he also would be instantaously better then ANY of our current relievers.
Look, ideally we could get a Duscherer or Mike Gonzalez, but considering how difficult it has become to pull trades, I wouldn’t mind getting Davies another crack?
Alex R,
And that’s what makes the victories that much sweeter.
Thomson for closer, why not he sucks in the rotation and we have tried everyone else.
Try a starting rotation of Smotlz, Huddy, James, Horacio, and the Vulture.. Might as well
Is Shiell even going to have a chance tonight, or are conceding the fact we have no #5 starter. It just feels like tonight is going to be a huge let-down after a great 7 games. I hope he has a start like James did, but I get the feeling we’ll see the vulture by the 3rd.
Davies’ fastball isn’t really “mid 90s”, it touches 92 but generally sits around 90. Maybe he could throw a little harder if he wasn’t starting. I’m skeptical, though; unless he could hit 94 with regularity AND get the curve ball over for strikes, I can’t see him as a good closer
Look, ideally we could get a Duscherer or Mike Gonzalez, but considering how difficult it has become to pull trades, I wouldn’t mind getting Davies another crack?
Sure. Our bullpen wouldn’t be so bad if we would just stop using whoever is the worst pitcher on the staff as the closer. First Reitsma, now Sosa. Just use Ray most of the time, McBride if there are lefties. This bullpen will never be a strength but they should be decent enough. Trading anything of real value to try and “fix” this problem would be a big mistake in my mind considering the current market for relievers.
I’m much more worried about our starting pitching than the bullpen.
Re: Shiell/5th Starter Blues
The Mets have a similar situation. It’s called Lima Time!
Lima isn’t “5th Stater Blues” Ububba…
That’s 5th starter hide the women and chilren, world is ending, my eyes are going to explode…
I love Jose Lima. He never lets me down.
Jose Lima is one of the most consistent pitchers in baseball, unless you’re a fan of his team or his hair color.
Jose Lima is garbage and I can only PRAY the Mets give him “another shot”.
I won’t have any clue about how good or bad Shiell is tonight until he faces a good, contending lineup in their ballpark against one of the best starters in the National League (yup…no pressure, Jason! Oh, and only a 7 gm. winning streak on the line! 🙂
Seriously, even if Shiell is downright awful, that’s still about 35X better then Jose Lima.
What is “downright awful”/35 ?
Jorge Sosa?
Jason Marquis?
Just making a number up Stu. My only point…Lima time stinks. I hope the Mets bring back Lima time.
Here’s my idea for Braves transactions:
What the Braves could do to compete for a WORLD SERIES title in 2007…I’m TRYING my best to be realistic.
*By the end of this season, ’06, trade John Thomson, somewhere, for someone…if not DO NOT RESIGN HIM!
*Trade Adam LaRoche to Detroit for relief pitching. i.e. RHP Jordan Tata, RHP Chris Spurling. They need a LH-hitter and this would open up the option of moving Chipper over.
Off season moves:
*Release C Todd Pratt, 1B Brian Jordan, P Chris Reitsma, etc.
*Move Chipper to First Base, and let Betemit take over third.
*Trade Jarrod Salalamacchia, Marcus Giles, Jorge Sosa, Ryan Langerhans (if applicable), etc. to Tampa Bay for LF Carl Crawford.
*Sign Tommy Glavine.
AS A RESULT, HERE’S THE ROSTER:
Lineup
1. Wilson Betemit 3B
2. Carl Crawford LF
3. Chipper Jones 3B
4. Andruw Jones CF
5. Brian McCann C
6. Jeff Francoeur RF
7. Edgar Renteria SS
8. Tony Pena, Jr. 2B
Bench
Brayan Pena C
Scott Thorman 1B/LF
Martin Prado 2B
Kelly Johnson OF/2B
Pete Orr UTIL
Starting Rotation
Tommy Glavine (LH)
Tim Hudson
Mike Hampton (LH)
Chuck James (LH)
Kyle Davies
Bullpen
Horacio Ramirez (LH) Spotstarter
Kevin Barry
John Foster (LH)
Ken Ray
Mccay McBride (LH)
Blaine Boyer
John Smoltz
Other AAA Players (or on 40-man roster)
Pitchers
Lance Cormier
Joey Devine
Phil Stockman
Tyler Yates
Peter Moylan
Anthony Lerew
Chad Paronto*
Oscar Villarreal*
Jordan Tata^
Chris Spurling^
Will Startup (LH)
Jason Shiell
Carlos Almanzar
I repeat, this was largely for fun…take it w/ “a grain of salt.” i.e. John Smoltz to closer…
I’m on the Giles for bullpen help train, but if it leads to Tony Pena Jr. at 2nd than I may quickly abandon that train of thought.
Why Tampa would think they’re gonna get better by trading Carl Crawford is beyond me.
Jon,
Bold & creative, I like it. And I am on the side of still being a huge fan of Tommy Glavine and will always be grateful for his 17 years in Atlanta and helping us get a WS title in 95.
However, I am a realist and I know he would never come back here.
But if we can’t find another closer, I would be all for Smoltz going back in that role. (and getting another front line starter).
Josh–
Given the rest of the before-mentioned lineup…I don’t think platooning Tony Pena, Jr. and Martin Prado at 2B would hurt that much.
Not remember Rafael Beilliard? Lemmer?
I’m liking it Jon…
I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again: I want John Smoltz in our rotation.
I remember Rafael Belliard, Keith Lockheart, etc…All the more reason why that doesn’t excite me. On the other hand, I would love to see Crawford in the lineup. In your scenario I would consider not trading LaRoche, leaving Chip at 3b and playing Betemit at 2b. I’d also love to see Glavine finish up his career in Atl, but am having a hard time trying to figure out how that’ll work. I just don’t think Smoltz is gonna move back to the bullpen ever, ever. No matter how much some us may like the idea.
I’ve got to agree with ububba. I don’t see Tampa trading Crawford at any price. Also, somebody needs to play 1B in your lineup, probably Chipper (you have him and Betemit at 1B). Lastly, if we can get compensation picks for some of those relievers (Villareal and Paronto especially), I’d just let them walk.
I’d play Kelly at 2B in spring training, or in Richmond, until we’re sure he can manage it without hurting himself; if he does, I’d give him the 2B job. There’d be no need to carry both Prado and Pena then.
Giles, LaRoche, and Hudson are in the tradable file (as well as detritus like most of the bullpen). I’d use them as the bait for as much pitching as possible rather than try for Crawford or other bats. We’ve got enough OF bats already.
Chipper Jones is on Jim Rome is Burning right now.
Tampa Bay has an abundace of talent at OF including Crawford, Rocco Baldelli, Jonny Gomes, Delmon Young, B.J. Upton (CF), etc. With the right offer, they’d part ways with Crawford to acquire needed talent at other positions…namely catcher and pitching.
JoshQ–yeah, leaving Chipper at 3B, playing Betemit at 2B, and keeping LaRoche around at 1B would work, too…esp. since that’s what is gonna happen.
Also, I’d rather have Smoltz in the rotation, too…however the large amount of starters in the given scenario…it made more sense to put him in the bullpen…again, its “for fun.”
http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?page=hruby/snibbe/060719
Espn’s Kurt Snibbe takes a shot at the Auburn Tigers…
I don’t think it ever makes sense to stick your best pitcher in the bullpen, assuming he’s able to pitch as a starter.
What are the odds to another 10+ runs scored tonight?
50/50 right now
Putting your best pitcher in the bullpen is like making your best hitter the go-to pinch hitter. Here’s the idea, let’s take Chipper out of the lineup entirely and put Betemit at thirdbase. Then when we need a big pinch hit we’ll be able to call on Chipper. They can even play some intimidating music when they make the call.
We just need a name for this new position, the hitter’s equivalent of “the closer”. Nominations? How about “The Pincher”?
I think that we will win tonight and score 6+ runs. Chris Carpenter is 1-1 7.23 ERA in his 4 career starts against.
Johnny Gomes is more of a DH than a RF. B.J. Upton is a SS and he might get some playing time in the near future because the Devil Rays have once again put Julio Lugo on the trade block. I would be extremely happy to get Carl Crawford because he could leadoff and he steals around 50 SBs. So that would solve are leadoff problem and our speed problem. But for TB to give up one of their few All-Star caliber players doesn’t make sense and if Crawford was available then I would think that the Yanks would go for him seeing as how they need OF right now. So that is a good thought but not likely.