ESPN.com – MLB – Box Score – Red Sox at Braves
Miserable Braves Loss Type 2.1(a), “Good starting pitching and offense undermined by horrible, horrible bullpen”.
McBride and Paronto combined to allow six runs in the eighth, turning a 5-3 lead into a 9-5 deficit. McBride actually started off great, striking out Ortiz and Ramirez. But he walked the next two, then allowed a single to cut it to one. I could complain about using Paronto in a pressure situation, but it’s not like the Braves have a lot of good options. He was horrible, allowing three straight hits capped with a two run homer. Remlinger eventually came in to get the third out. Ray allowed an insurance run in the ninth.
So seven runs and a good Smoltz start go to waste. Smoltz allowed two solo homers — one each to Ortiz and Ramirez. He only got in real trouble once, in the sixth, when he loaded the bases on walks, then got a double play (scoring a run). He struck out eight.
The Braves had scored just two runs going to the seventh, but Francoeur hit a two-out, three-run homer to give them the lead. It looked, briefly, like the sort of energizing win they needed. No such luck. Marcus and Andruw drove in runs in the eighth to cut it to 9-7, but McCann flew out to end the inning with two on. Scott Thorman made his debut, hitting third (with Chipper sitting this one out) and playing left. He was 0-4. Andruw and Marcus had three hits each.
…And King Schuerholz continues to sit there with his tailored suits, his dorky ass suspenders, his funny ha-ha stories about his good pal Rush Limbaugh, and sign autographs at Turner Field while our home stadium “erupts” happily for another Red Sox win and a Braves loss.
I am not in Atlanta of course but I cannot tell you how it makes me f-ng sick that Schuerholz, mr. fancy pants, mr. excuses, mr. corporation, mr. wasn’t Kansas City great?, sits there and signs his f-ng book.
I am generally against BOOK BURNING but in this case, I would personally like to walk up to Schuerholz at the Ted and as I am about to hand his smug face my book, for an autograph, call him a liar and burn his stupid book right in front of him.
Yes, I have not stopped being angry at the story of Schuerholz sitting on his greedy, corporate behind concerned more about book sales and book signings and less about getting the Braves, the team he’s written about, some damned relievers.
Seriously…this is his just desserts. When you decide to write a book WHILE YOU ARE AN ACTIVE GENERAL MANAGER praising YOURSELF, this is punishment…turning the Braves into a last placed team again while you sit on your hands thinking more about your “next book”.
It’s interesting…I attack Mark Cuban in last night’s thread (who is a big giant baby and really obnoxious if you are a fan of a rival to Dallas) but I agree with the other posters in here…as rich as Cuban maybe, he’s still your typical sports fan and cares more about winning. Yes, I would like to sla him around, but I have to give him that.
Schuerholz is the complete opposite to me.
Here’s a fancy suit wearing, corporate schill who cares more about his rich friends and impressing his corporate bosses.
It’s funny…for those of you guys in here who have read the JS book like Mac and I, if you see the way he talks about Ted Turner, he talks about Ted like he’s this crazy southern billionaire and almost looks down with an air of snottiness at ted just wanting to throw $ at problem areas on the team. Schuerholz “laughs” at Ted.
So, I am to understand that Ted’s way sucks (sort of the southern fried version of Cuban without the insult of other teams) but Schuerholz’s hands in the air like he just don’t care claiming he “really, really tried” to find a relief pitcher in the offseason while he was really more worried about book deadlines, is BETTER?
Hell no.
John Schuerholz to me, right now, represents everything that is wrong with the Braves. I think every Braves fan on Braves Journal (and I certainly know guys like kc and Brad and Landogarner agree) agrees that we all miss Turner and his ability to offer up some cash when we needed players. Probably the 2 premium highlights in the last 14 years of Turner helping us when we really needed him was landing Maddux in 1992 from the Cubs (instead of him going to the Yankees) and then trading for Freddy McGriff in 1993.
And while I realize evil TimeWarner has given JS an “80 million dollar cap” his logic is completely blown if you look on the other side of the country at what Billy Beane does with less $.
Not only does Bean have the best collection of young starting pitchers in Baseball (all far superior pitchers to Horacio, Thomson, Sosa, and even Davies and Chuckie James) but he & his crack staff scout young talent and inexpensive young players around Baseball, 365 days a year, and always find good bargain bin players or make smart decisions in the off season. The complete antithesis of the “Braves Way” which apparently means sh–y relievers, a binch of hitters who swing at everything, and a general corporate attitude where even your supposed “team leaders” like Smoltz and Chipper don’t call anyone out and fire up the rest of their teammates.
Every Braves fan attacked Gary Sheffield when he called the Braves atmosphere “corporate” but I have to believe if this team had more heart, we may have won 1-2 more post seasons at least. Even keeled has worked well during the regular season and it’s why we fail in the post season. But this is the atmosphere Schuerholz has wanted from day 1 and has a Manager (Cox) who furthers this.
But if Schuerholz had been less concerned about that damned book the last off seasons, we maye have been find someone a bit better then Judy Reitsma to be our closer–or Dan Kolb. Anyone who reads a scouting report and looks at the numbers (i.e. Theo Epstein or Billy Beane) would never have “settled” on Dan Kolb as the closer…or just stuck with Reitsma this year…they would have looked during the winter months for real help.
Kolb got a bunch of saves with NO STRIKEOUTS in Milwaukee in 2004 and then the Brewers smartly made JS look like a corporate fool and gave Kolb away and then made the real bullpen pitcher, Derrick Turnbow, their closer.
That’s life with a General Manager who simply doesn’t care anymore. Yes, I am just one Braves fan with no power, except my keyboard, but I for one am fed up with inaction and stupid moves.
Even if it takes the Braves 5 years to win another division, I would rather see a Manager and General Manager, younger in there, who have a passion for winning and a passion for acquiring good players, still.
Alex,
If a manager/GM combo finishes in first place 15/17 years, I’d say they show plenty of passion for winning.
Or 14/16. You get the idea.
I mean, it’s never been done before. By anyone. Ever.
ububba,
I don’t know if you have read the book or not, but there are several mentions of Schuerholz “laughing” at “Crazy Ted” for wanting to spend $ to fix issues on the team and where he also talks openly about the fact that he loves being so fiscally conservative/reponsible.
While I agree you shouldn’t do things like sign Randy Johnson to a 4 year contract at age 41, the Schuerholz way of complete inactivity the last few years and making up excuses doesn’t sit with me.
Mac, who’s far less critical then me, called Schuerholz out when he traded Kevin Millwood for Johnny Estrada, not because he needed to lose some salary, we understand that he has bosses, but because he did with 3-4 months to go and certainly could have found a better value deal than that with a division RIVAL, no less.
But seriously, everyone wants to always come back at me with all his division success. There’s truth to that and certainly, in the 1990’s, he did a lot more to help this team beack when he seemed to care and when we had Ted Turner.
But things have changed. How can you not notice the obvious sea change with JS now being Mr. Excuse every winter and he will throw out a big name or two, such as Todd Jones or Trevor Hoffman or Bob Wickman…when there are far cheaper, more talented, younger pitchers we could have had in TRADES had we done more Billy Beane type research and homework. It’s sheer laziness if you ask me.
And the book thing…who writes a book while they are still in the midst of their GM duties…UNLESS, they have already emotionally and mentally checked out, and are still in the job going through themotions.
Ububba, would you at least acknowledge there’s some truth to that That maybe, he is looking way tooo forward to retirement and that a younger, more energetic Schuerholz who’s concerned with WINNING should now take the reigns.
I think the book is an indicator his time has passed and let’s move to the next generation. Again, this is my opinion and several others on here.
and all of my complaints do not take away the good job he did for years.
It’s mainly to say that here and now, in 2006, Schuerholz needs to enjoy the next stage of his life or maybe evern move into the Commissioner’s office and work with Bud or something.
But a younger, energetic Gm and Manager are needed now.
yes, JS did a wonderful job for years…but time hass passed him.
And then he can write all the damned books he wants!
I just don’t understand the vitriol over the book thing. Are we really to believe JS hasn’t actually been calling around, trying to find solutions?
Here’s the thing – we’re in last place and, moreover, we have _11_ teams to pass in the wild card race too. Moreover, you can only trade for what’s actually available, and there are right now plenty of teams that probably still think they’re in their own pennant or wild card race. And finally, you can only trade with what you have. Having had to promote so many guys the last few years, our minor league cupboard is pretty bare.
You have _no_ idea how much time JS was devoting to his book relative to time spent trying to find a reliever. None. Any argument otherwise and you’re just making s**t up.
Moreover, in case you hadn’t noticed, the market for relievers was off the charts this past offseason. The contracts they were getting were crazy. Sure, JS could be scouting around a la Billy Beane. However, maybe this would be an opportune time to mention that billy beane’s team hasn’t exactly rocked the house of late.
An $80m payroll is plenty sufficient. That we struggle under it is partly because of moves JS has made. I won’t defend moves like Hampton and Kolb. OTOH, Andruw’s contract, and the last year’s of Chipper’s, were signed while the team was still under a lot more payroll than it currently is. So in some cases he made bad moves, and in other cases the rules changed.
Sometimes you make mistakes, like penciling in a guy with zero plate discipline in right field. And of course, sometimes the players just let you down, like the guy at second base.
The fact is that it’s damned hard to maintain success for 5 years, let alone 15. Am I shocked that the plummet has been so sudden and ugly? Sure. But good grief, it had to come at some point. Criticize the team that Schuerholz put on the field, fine. But all of this “fancy pants”, “writing a book” BS is just pure silliness.
(PS, I wrote all of the above after only the first post in the thread, not Alex’s subsequent posts)
I agree that JS has looked like an idiot the past 2 offseasons, and probably the season before that, had some of his re-tread’s not worked in the bullpen. I think it its probably time for him to go, in exchange of not necessarily someone younger, but perhaps someone hungrier.
However, Bobby needs to stay. I dont think you could have a better person to guide this team through this crapfest on the field. He isnt going to panic and he isnt going to wigg out. Thats a fantastic thing for these young guys to see.
I also agree that its probably time to become sellers. Lets load up with some prospects and make a run for the wild card or next year.
Alex R., I think you’re exactly right when you bring up Sheffield and his criticism of the Braves. I also think that’s part of the problem with attendance in Atlanta. Sure, the Braves have been winners for a long time now, but they haven’t always been the most interesting bunch.
The h*ll with Gary Sheffield and his comments about Atlanta. Sheff went 3 for 30 in his two Atlanta postseasons. You think maybe he might have been looking for someone else to blame?
Whatever you think of Sheff, his performance, and/or his comments about the Braves, the fact is that they have always come across as not very passionate about baseball. They’ve always seemed too business-like. That was part of what was cool about last year. McCann and Frenchy helped bring some energy to a team that always seems a little flat in that department.
Hell, I wouldn’t mind seeing the Braves bring in Rick Vaughn.
Can anyone believe that Jered Weaver was actually sent down? I wish we had these problems to think about. When does our fire sale begin? Gammons stated that Andruw and Hudson could be moved before the end of the year or in the offseason. Where has our farm system gone, this sucks and we have no help. Chipper has to go to 1st this offseason and I guess we hold onto Giles. Renteria could be moved for pitching and Tony P or Escobar (if ready) could come in. That leaves us w/ Francouer, Johnson, Diaz, Langy in the outfield and that wont get it done if Andruw leaves. If Andruw goes we need a leadoff hitter and more pitching. We have become the KC Royals. Maybe they can come into town and we can make them look great too! We are a confidence boost for all the teams that play us. Can we go back to Chicago please!
curse of Dayton Moore – can we get him back and send them JS please! Cox will be replaced by Fredi Gonzo soon.
JS’ book doesn’t impact my opinion of him or his performance (this year or previous years) one iota.
I think Ted is a cooler guy with a longer legacy than JS will ever hope for (Ted may be nutty, but he never praised a charlatan like Rush), but I don’t think JS & his book has anything to do with this teams falloff.
JS gambled & lost this year, just like he gambled & won in previous years. In the last 2 seasons, we all know how rough they began & how well they got. JS gets credit for that, just like he gets blame for this year. The book is a diversion from the fact that we didn’t/couldn’t spend money on a bullpen.
Colin,
When discussing Sheffield, those are the only numbers I bring up.
Well I’ve been out of the country for the last 10 days and purposely tried to stay away from anything Braves as I was worried it might ruin my vacation. Well after sitting down to watch this team last night, I am glad I didn’t watch last week. Was that a home game or did Boston rebuild a replica of the Ted while I was gone. That was annoying!!!
This team is justs a drain and I can’t imagine JS isn’t working to do something. At the very least his ego won’t let him not try. I agree with the sentiment that we need new blood. The front office is going to change in the next couple seasons, but for now I am talking about the field.
I would love if we could somehow get a great bullpen and a clutch hits every once in a while, but as this season progresses the prospects don’t look very good. I have a feeling that there aren’t many teams who are interested in helping the Braves win a 15 division title. Unfortunately, I am starting to get into the camp who would say that our best choice would be to trade some of our better guys for young high ceiling talent. Watching Smoltz be interviewed last night about possibly being traded was hard, but I think it may be a worthy option to look at for the future of this team. I can’t believe I just said that 🙁
I dont see what the harm in a fire sale would be, look what its done for the Marlins, TWICE!!!
I dont care what record the Braves finish w/ this year, forget the postseason. I just want them too play good baseball, quit walking batters, and look like they care. This team has no heart and if they dont care they all need to go. Why hasn’t this team had a closed door meating or why hasnt anyone spoken up. Just show us why your getting paid!
Just think of the prospects we could get for Smoltz, Chipper (I’m sure he’d like to be closer to his ranch in texas), Andruw, Hudson and any other vet making too much $$ for a sub .500 team.
Smoltz and Chippa only have another year or two before they retire. Andruw and Hudson on the other hand can be traded for some prospects and some good talent. Our farm system looks bleak even though we always talk about how good it is. Thomson and Sosa could bring us something in return. Question is do we want Andruw and Hudson for one more run next year or do we rebuild like the Marlins have done? Last time I checked they are ahead of us and I believe they have won 7 or 8 straight.
Whatever you think of Sheff, his performance, and/or his comments about the Braves, the fact is that they have always come across as not very passionate about baseball. They’ve always seemed too business-like.
But the thing is, concluding “more passion and fire would have won us a few more postseasons” is just unfounded. Sheffield had all the fire you could ever want, and when the playoffs rolled around he hit nothing. Andres Galarraga had as much heart and competitive fire as you could want, and he hit .162 in the playoffs for Atlanta. Brian Jordan hit .243. Meanwhile, Fred McGriff, one of the most businesslike players you’lle ver see, hit .323.
One might conclude that fire and passion and all of that stuff actually interfere with the ability to concentrate on the task at hand of reacting to an incoming baseball or placing a ball in a spot, that they’re the kind of things that make you more likely to choke under pressure. Me, I’ll just conclude that they don’t really mean anything. Alex argues that passion and fire would have led to a few more postseason wins, Me, I’ll argue that it was the calmness under pressure that led them to come back down 3-1 to beat St Louis in 1996.
That was part of what was cool about last year. McCann and Frenchy helped bring some energy to a team that always seems a little flat in that department.
Last year was fun because of the novelty. But energy’s contingent on success, not the other way around. Frenchy’s energy hasn’t exactly helped with his contributions to the team this year around. Nobody’s saying it’s fun this year because of all the young guys. It’s winning that maks it fun more than anything. Winnign with young, energetic guys is more fun than winning with old, boring guys, but winning with old boring guys sure trumps crashing and burning with youth and energy.
Alex,
That’s as silly a post as Jeff Schultz’. I guess what you are saying is that JS should not eat, drink, read a newspaper or doing anything else except sit around waiting for GMs to call back. Have you ever heard of cell phones? That’s ridiculous to say he is sitting on his ass. How do you know?
As for the book, I haven’t read it and, quite possibly, JS is not the most appealing figure. And he has done things worth criticizing, but I think you could say that about anyone. I happen to think the Braves farm system is overrated, but JS has made the most of it by trading for guys like Hudson and, basically giving up nothing.
Get ahold of yourself. Look, the Braves have a limited payroll with most of it tied up in a few players. They don’t have any topflight arms in the minors (look at who they are bringing up). The attendence is mediocre at best (and,yes, I understand there are reasons for that). I think we should be grateful this run lasted as long as it did. They are simply going to have to move one of these big contracts, most likely Andruw Jones, to try to get some flexibility. They are going to have to start behaving like a medium market team they really are and set their sites lower. They aren’t the Red Sox or the Yankees and until they find a way to get people in the seats, they aren’t going to be.
Just think of the prospects we could get for Smoltz, Chipper (I’m sure he’d like to be closer to his ranch in texas), Andruw, Hudson and any other vet making too much $$ for a sub .500 team.
Which leaves us, what, McCann as our only remaining good player? Such an approach is fine if you’re gearing up for a long-term rebuilding, but I suspect most fans will want an effort that tries to return us to competitiveness next year. I guess my point is that, at the very least, I wouldn’t trade Andruw, disappointing as he’s been of late. And I’d keep at least one of the big two starters, if not both.
Of course, i wouldn’t be surprised if Liberty Media would prefer fire sale.
I’d try to move Chipper and Smoltz, but they could be the hardest because they are 10 and 5 guys. So they would have to approve a deal.
Andruw would be the toughest for me to give up because he is so hard to replace in centerfield. That being said, he will be a free agent after next year and he won’t be in Atlanta after that so I say trade him.
Hudson is a guy I would hang onto a little longer. Leave him at the top of the rotation with Hampton next year. I don’t think we can just have 5 young guys in the staff. It is good to have some veteran leadership at the top of the staff. Of course I say this while a bunch of kids fresh out of high school are ahead of us in the standings (marlins).
Well, the last time I was in favor of dumping veterans for prospects, we wound up with the Alexander for Smoltz deal. Worked out pretty good, didn’t it? Abd if you only have to worry about what prospects you can pick up every 15 years, that’s doing pretty well also.
It’s been a great run for the Braves, but I am now convinced it’s time to see if we can get ourselves set up for a title run in 2008-ish.
Just be careful what you ask for. Lots of teams start rebuilding with a specific year in mind a few years down the road, and it never comes. If asking for a longer term plan, bear in mind that it’s probably easier to maintain payroll than it is to give it up and then get it back later.
That was one of the worst regular season games I can remember. I had the feeling after the Frenchy homer and strikeouts of Ortiz and Ramirez that the Braves were on the verge of that defining win they have needed to put this bad playing behind then. And then.. well, you all know what happened. Even our best relievers have become totally unreliable. It’s sickening.
I really don’t envy JS. How do you decide whether to blow up this team or just ride out the rest of the regular season and hope that with a few changes and people coming back from injuries that you can make another run next year? I mean next year you could have a rotation of Smoltz, Hudson, Hampton, James, Ramirez/Davies with a pretty good lineup that despite everything is scoring plenty of runs this year. Get Boyer and Foster back and pick up at least one top notch reliever in trades or free agency and this club could easily compete for the World Series next year. The Mets have a very old starting rotation that could break down anytime and the rest of the teams in the division are still a few years away from competing, so the opportunity will still be there for us even with a younger team next year. On the other hand, you have the ownership uncertainty with the prospect that a new corporate owner such as Liberty might want to dump most of the high priced players. Would you be better off moving players like Smoltz, Chipper, and maybe even Andruw if you can get blue chip prospects and planning for winning in 2008 or 2009? That’s a very tough call and until the team is sold JS’s hands are very much tied.
At this point, the team can’t even really think about the playoffs even the wild card. What I’d like to see them do is just play better. This team is not as bad as they’ve been playing in June. If they finish the season at .500 or better with some momentum going into next year, the season will not be a complete loss. At least trade or cut expensive duds like Thomson, Sosa, Jordan, Pratt, and Reitsma. Let’s find out if players like Davies, James, Thorman, Stockman, and Brayan Pena are who we need next year instead of continuing to play washed up retreads.
JoshQ, I agree but I would rather keep Smoltz than Hudson personally. Hudson gets really expensive after this year and even more so after ’07. He has more value to teams at this point. Just keep him out of this division if he goes.
I’m not sure what the braves need, but I know what they don’t need – “names” for the bullpen in exchange for prospects. What’s the point? We’re last in the division, well back of the wild card, and just don’t have a very good team.
Still, I wouldn’t trade Smoltz, Andruw, or Chipper (who’s a 5/10 guy and can’t be traded without his consent!) for purely sentimental reasons. Renteria and Hudson – I’d miss ’em, but we need to build for the future and they are valuable assets. Hudson might net us Philip Hughes and Austin Jackson from the Yanks; prospects, and uncertain, but potential perennial all stars.
Don’t trade Smoltz, though – it would break my heart to see him on another team.
I don’t know whether either one of them would be with Atlanta after a couple more seasons anyway. I do think Hudson may be the easiest to move because of Smoltz’s 10 and 5 status. Although we may have to take some of Huddy’s salary which is not real appealing. Hudson may also bring the best deal in terms of prospects because of the year he has left. Man this is depressing to talk about.
Ron, I understand your sentiment that we may be able to compete if we hang on for next year. The risk is that if we wait to long to reload, then the process may take even longer. Smoltz and Chip may not even be worth a dime next year if age catches them even quicker. Andruw will be a free agent after next year so we may get less for a 3 month rental. Huddy would be immediately more expensive to whatever team wants him. It’s a tough call no doubt.
Whoa! This is ugly. I think the bullpen this year is clearly JS’s fault, but I do understand his reluctance to spend big money on older players like Todd Jones (I think Hoffman would have been worth the gamble). That doesn’t excuse him for not dredging up some halfway decent arms to fill in the rest of the bullpen. He should have learned from last year that Hammonds don’t come around every season, you need a least a couple proven pitchers in the bullpen.
Still I don’t think JS really deserves that rant. I guess you’d prefer to see JS with a shorn head, covered in ash, dressed in rags, while weeping beside the Hank Aaron statue outside Turner?
This season is looking lost, but that doesn’t mean we’re back in the mid-late 80’s. The Mets are not the Braves, they may win this year, but a dynasty they are not. If we can fix this bullpen problem (a big IF maybe), then we’ll be right back in it next year. Hudson, Smoltz, Hampton, Davies, and James is a respectable rotation.
I think Smoltz and Chippa both retire after next year. Smoltz shoulder cant take much more and Chippa spends too much time on the bench.
Also, I missed a chunk of last night’s game, so where’s all this talk of trading Smoltz and Chipper coming from? Is there really talk of trading Smoltz?!
If Hudson or Renteria have to go, then fine. I might not like it, but I’ll understand. But as far as I’m concerned Andruw, Chipper, and Smoltz (maybe McCann and Francoeur) ARE the Braves. Think the fans don’t seem to care a lot now? Trade those guys and see what bad attendance really looks like.
I understand it’s a business, but those should be the guys any Braves team is built around. All three have been life-long Braves and have shown loyalty to the team. That loyalty needs to be returned.
I really don’t envy JS
I don’t either. The thing is, how is a GM supposed to respond when a team goes from three games out to last place in just three weeks? A steady decline gives time for action, but a plummet that hard and fast leaves a guy with very few options. And if he did go calling around, I expect other GMs would be ready to exact a high price for his desperation. After all, they have little to lose by just waiting another month to see what the trade deadline brings.
As for Smoltz’s 10-5 status, when asked on the telecast last night about the prospect of being traded, it didn’t seem like something he was terribly resistant to.
ermoore,
Gammon’s was talking about the Braves moving Hudson, Andruw, Thomson and others. I didn’t hear Smoltz or Chipper, but it was mentioned above. Smoltz will quit before he plays elsewhere. Chipper, we love you, but your becoming a problem. We are giving you too much money for 120 games per year and .290 20HR’s 80 RBi’s like numbers. Move to first or you need to go.
I don’t know how we are going to get more value than we have for renteria. He is so cheap compared to his true value trading for someone of equal value would have to be a young prospect who would be even cheeper. I think renteria is the kind of guy you’d like to keep around.
Honestly I can’t see any major moves at this point with the ownership uncertanity.. especially people like smoltz,chipper, and andruw the 3 people who define the braves in many peoples minds. You won’t be moving those people if you intended to sell to anyone but liberty who not really care.
Any kind of trades that ‘help us win this season’ are pointless. If we’re going to pull it out and make the playoffs then it’ll have to happen without any major trades.
hudson might be the one that has to be dealt. while he’s a relative bargain this year and next, his salary bumps up to $13M per in ’08 & ’09.
as someone mentioned above me, you simply cannot have 3-4 players taking up a large majority of the payroll. not only do you have no flexibility but it’s bad buisness.
I think there’s a happy medium on dumping vs. keeping of players.
Since Tim Hudson is still a legit #1 starter and 30 years old, my gut would say to keep him and build the staff behind him (i.e. Davies, Chuck James and whomever) but certainly if ANYONE wants at all to take Hampton, Sosa and/or Thomson, we absolutely need to cut all that dead veteran weight.
If Smoltz wants to pitch 1-2 more years and he can still be good, fine…I think he and Hudson can lead a staff with 3 talented young guys behind them. (and since no one is likely to sniff Hampton, then a Hudson-Hampton-Smoltz-Davies-Chuck James rotation next yr. seems solid and inveitable) which also means we should move Horacio Ramirez while he has some value….people always want young lefthanded starters.
But if Smoltz was willing to be moved to a contender, I think it’s worth it since he’s only likely to pitch 1 more year anyway. He makes a ton and while it would be great for him to retire a Brave, we have to think long term and if some team was willing to deal us 2 great prospects and 1 good prospect say to get John, then deal him.
(though Joe Morgan and Jon Miller talking about Smoltz moving to the Red Sox during the Braves/Red Sox game last night was stomach churning…I would like to swat Morgan with the Sunday edition of the AJC personally…I mean, it was truly insulting and an affront to our fans to have these two talking about our dismantling during a nationally televised June ESPN game.)
But all the starting pitching questions aside, we have to make some serious trades for real arms in the ‘pen. That’s a far bigger issue. We still have enough good starting pitching that we would be competing with the mets right now and not out of it if we had gotten some relief.
And to all thise who keep defending JS…forget it…I will never again hop on board. He had all winter w/ his “crack” staff to scour teams rosters and pluck trades out…and we have the deep farm system that we could have re-stocked the pen in a big way the last 2 years. Sheer laziness and focus on his book is why our bullpen is an unmitigated disaster.
I am sorry if some disagree, but this 100% Schuerholz’s fault and I stand firmly by my applause for Jeff Schultz’s column in the AJC.
What everyone should understand is that I don’t expect that we will the division, every year for the rest of my life–sure, that would be nice but it’s unrealistic. What I firmly expect is that the Braves front office and on field manager compete and manage as hard as possible. Have desire, work hard to make the right moves and hey, it doesn’t always work out. My gripe is Schuerholz’s complete lack of effort it seems the last 2 years. Again, this is my perception and some other posters opinions and we all don’t agree, fair enough…but if you at least make a real attempt at keeping the team competitive and not just throw sh– against a wall and “assuming” we will win another division, i can get behind that.
Plus, the bullpen, despite winning the division last year, was so obviously going to screw us against Houston and it did.
You simply cannot compete or expect a team to compete if their confidence is shattered everytime a group of scrubs walks out of the bullpen throwing meatballs to the opposition. Bullpens require scouting and some financial investment. I mean, you might as well stick me, Land, Brad, KC, Mac and Ububba in there and I think you’d get about the same results!!!!
I like the idea of re-tooling instead of giving up with a fire sale. If we’d had any kind of bullpen at all, this would be a different season, one that retained some hope. The problem comes with gag-o-ramas like last night. They’re just so disheartening.
GIving up Smoltz & Hudson, to me, doesn’t make sense. I say, try to win. Don’t defer that notion until “the future.” Next year’s rotation can win—provided, of course, there’s a semblance of a bullpen.
Smoltz was interviewed last night about trade rumors and mentioned that he had heard Detroit as an option in rumors. He said that he has been around long enough to understand the business side of things and would have to entertain a trade if something happened. I’m obviously paraphrasing.
JoshQ,
This is no surprise to me.
In 2004, when it appeared we might be out of it (and then that famous Orioles game turned it around) Smoltz had mentioned at the time he’d wave his no trade clause to move to a contender.
I am not sure why some are surprised by this but I am not and I don’t blame him. He will hopefully get into the Hall and he will have a Braves cap, but if he 1-2 last “shots” at winning a title (and clearly the 2006 Braves are a non sequitor at this pt.) I could understand his desire to be traded.
And the fact that the same year the Braves collapse, his hometown team is suddenly a good team again (and with some injuries to starting pitching) it’s a complete natural to assume there would be mutual interest in Smoltz in Detroit.
Look, as a lifelong Braves loyalist, I would only want the best for John and I personally would root for the Tigers if they make the post season with Smoltz in the rotation. I would be happy that another big name didn’t just get swallowed into the New York or Boston “empires” but rather to his hometown team that hasn’t had much to cheer about the last 15 years.
I think all of us would feel a lot better if John went to Detroit rather then Boston or NY. Though if he retires a Brave, that’s OK by me. But if we are out of it and we can land 3 great young players from the Tigers and he can retire in his hometonw….it wouldn’t be the worst thing in the world for everybody. I would be happy for John that his career, like Maddux’s, would have come full circle and not involved the Sox or a NY team.
And while I love Tommy Glavine stilol and would always stand by what he did as a Brave (and he has to go to the Hall as a Brave) I think what rubs many Braves fans the wrong way is that he went to the METS. In his case, had he even gone to Boston, it would have been better received because Glavine is a New Englander.
didn’t really care about the outcome of the game last night, since my enjoyment of it was virtually ruined by the Evil Empire II’s drones (and let’s not kid ourselves, the Red Sox won by spending money, very few of their 2004 WS team came up in their farm system … unlike the Yankees WS winners) and their cheers.
It was almost intolerable, but not quite as bad as the 2003 Cubs NLDS. Game 5 was so awful. I was sitting by myself, in nosebleeds, surrounded by drunken frat boys (your typical Cubs fan, as far as I could tell), and I decided to eat two Southwestern jumbo dogs in one sitting, followed by many warm beers. Never felt worse.
I can deal with the losing, but the ‘home away from home’ for visiting teams is just intolerable. “”Fenway South,” “Wrigley South,” etc…. how can this problem be fixed? And I don’t think being better than the Cubs or Red Sox is the answer. Their mindless hordes will invade Turner field regardless.
As much as I dislike the Astros and losing to them the last few years, and actually because of certain family connections, I would pull for the Cubs against Houston, I found the 2003 NLDS to be one of the most disturbing Playoff experiences to watch on TV. It was truly depressing.
The Cubs fans unlike Houston fans who seemed much more respectful, were disgusting pigs. That 2003 series left a lingering bad taste in my mouth and they are not such “loveable” losers….but I have always hated the Astros (for many reasons) so it pains me but I would actually still root for the Cubs over Houston, head to head.
the problem is that w/o those Red Sox fans in the seats last night, there would have been nothing but echoes in the stadium.
Exactly, Alex. Nothing lovable about them at all. They were full of anger (pent-up anger at a century of futility I guess?) and it showed in how they dealt with the Atlanta fans, even the little kids. Scum of the earth.
JoshQ, that isn’t true. The Atlanta fan booing drowned out the “Let’s Go Red Sox” chants very effectively, at least when the outcome of the game was still in question. I don’t think the Red Sox fans outnumbered the Atlanta fans at all, it’s just that loud braying comes more naturally to them, and all the Atlanta cheering (what little there is of it) seems forced, artificial, and prompted by various field gimmicks that are embarassing more often than not.
I want to know what move you want John to make. I am sure he is calling everyone he can, trying to make a deal. Just because you see him on TV without a phone on his head, doesn’t mean he isn’t trying. I am sure he is getting offers like Javier Lopez (the pitcher) for Salty and Betemit. Yeah right
drzachary, maybe it just seemed like that as a depressed Atlanta fan watching that horrible Espn telecast last night.
Maybe if we had an owner that cared, there’d be an automatic ejection policy for any fan of a visiting team that cheers loudly?
Before the idea is shot down, I realize that it would be a bad move financially. But it would be so satisfying. I wonder if they would even break-even by increased Braves fan attendance resulting from it?
I know I’d be much more likely to attend more games per season than I already do if I can rest assured that the Cubs fan in front of me, spitting out his chants aided by his gravy-lubed throat (who the heck puts TOMATOES on a hot dog anyways?) will soon be escorted away by friendly Turner Field staff.
JoshQ, I expect that confirmation bias plays a lard part (that was a Freudian slip.. mind still stuck on the Cubs fans) in how the telecasts are perceived. I bet the ESPN sound engineers turn up the mics whenever a Let’s Go Red Sox chant starts.
A question to which I’d love to know the answer: how many of the Red Sox fans there actually have connections to Boston, and how many are just willing bandwagoners who hopped aboard after getting spoon-fed Red Sox hero myths for so many years?
I’m bitter this morning. Sorry, all.
I blame JS for what he did this offseason. His hands are kind of tied right now. Although last week Boston traded David Riske (who is a pretty solid reliever) for a crappy minor leaguer. We could’ve used him, I know that.
During Saturday’s game, Smoltz was wearing a headset and talking with the annoncers in the booth. When one of them asked John what it was like being in his home stadium with more fans cheering for the opposing team than the Braves, he shook his head and said, “I’m not going to touch that question with any kind of pole.” If Smoltz felt he could speak candidly, I wonder what he would have said.
Okay, it’s time to ditch the tomato jerseys and get back to winning games again.
You know what I would like to see?
The next time a group of obnoxious Red Sox, Yankees, Mets or Cubs fans start becoming giant a–holes to our fans at the Ted, I would like to see a pile of pissed off, tattooed, bad a– Braves fans walk over with a variety of blunt objects, ala the hilarious scene in “Airplane”, and start taking turns pounding on said Boston, NY or Chicago fan.
If we lost the game, it would be especially satisfying to get vigilante on these obnoxious bandwagon jumpers.
And eyah…I bet half those jerkoffs with Navy Blue hats and red & white “B’s” on them, were probably from Marietta or Roswell.
Actually, I bet they were all Georgia Tech fans.
Those of us who were Braves fans in the stands managed to silence the chants of “let’s go Red Sox” during the game last night by “booing” them until they would stop their chant…. at least until the 8th inning. So I don’t think it would have been “nothing but echoes”; there were still plenty of Braves faithfuls in attendance.
drzachary-
At least you don’t have to live in the same city with these guys. Be happy you only deal with Red Sox fans 3 times, every other year. Work has been tough this morning. My door is shut with my Braves towel (a freebie from filling out a Mastercard application at the Ted) covering the window.
That said, i feel worse for Ububba. He lives in NY and has to deal with Met fans. No thanks. When i lived in NYC, I found those fans despicable. It’s like they didn’t get that they were losing every single year.
I just realized something: I’m more optimistic about the Hawks right now than the Braves.
I guess I have it easy living in the Washington, DC/Northern Virginia region and dealing with a hodge podge of fans for all teams.
I don’t envy dealing with millions of annoying NY or Boston fans, daily. They suck.
Matt in Boston —
I think there’s a demographic element to the fan situation in Atlanta (with all sports, not just the Braves) that is missed by the “OMGFENWAYSOUTH” wanna-be journalists who blather on ESPN.
Atlanta (and the south in general) is a place that people have been moving to from NYC and its environs for decades, for various reasons (affordable homes, employment, less regulatory taxing on employers). At my office of 100 people, I know 1 other person that was actually born in Atlanta (I’m a Grady-baby.) When people move to Atlanta, they bring their sports alliances with them. When people move to Boston from Atlanta… wait, does that happen very often?
Matt in Boston —
Also, kudos to you for putting up the Braves towel. I get the impression that someone trying to start a chant for the visiting team in Turner North or Turner Midwest would probably get a beatdown, so I admire your courage.
I tried reading JS’s book. I thought it sucked. I didn’t like the tone, I found it boring, and I didn’t get past chapter 7. But that’s my personal opinion, and while the timing for that book signing was a little bad, I don’t think the whole book thing really has any relation to the team’s struggles. So I’ll just leave that discussion to others.
Re: visiting fans, I see no point in getting mad at them. If that ticket had been bought by a Braves fan, the seat would have already been occupied. But it wasn’t. It’s not like the Braves ever really gave a reason to the Red Sox fans to shut up this weekend. I’ve been a visiting fan more than a home fan because I only go to Camden Yards and RFK to see the opposition, and while I’m not loud and obnoxious about it, I do get pissed off when home fans start being all snotty to me, as if I somehow don’t have a right to be there and they do. Yeah, right. It’s a free country, I can do what I want. Get mad at the home fan who didn’t buy the ticket, not at me for supporting my team. I guess this is the reason I don’t like hating on visiting fans: I’ve been in their shoes too many times.
Re: the bullpen, I wonder how much JS has been victimized by other GMs automatically assuming that if they trade with him, they’ll get ripped off. If you do that too often, people start to get wary and won’t deal with you. It especially happens with pitching. We trade a pitcher who was good in Atlanta for another guy, and that guy plays well and the former Atlanta guy sucks. I think JS probably has a handicap making trades just because of that. And the market this offseason sucked. But what about the last 4 years? This bullpen has been getting worse since like 2002. I’m happy that Smoltz is happy he’s starting, and he’s been good, but that really did hurt our bullpen a lot. Unfortunately he can’t be in both places at once. I don’t think there’s really anything that can be done. If there was, why wouldn’t JS do it? Why wouldn’t he have done it already? The time to panic was a few weeks ago or in the offseason. Now it’s time to take stock.
I am increasingly galled in hindsight by the Renteria trade. It only makes sense for a contending team. We aren’t. And now that Chipper isn’t what he once was, we need fresh faces to shake things up, and we have a 1B problem, I really wish we still had Marte. I hope he’s a bust.
I am sorry if some disagree, but this 100% Schuerholz’s fault and I stand firmly by my applause for Jeff Schultz’s column in the AJC.
Jeff Schultz was an idiot for the whole “signing books instead of…” line. It’s unfounded, purely emotional crap.
Criticize JS forhis work, that’s fine. I’ve done plenty of it over the years. But there is zero reason to presume that this book has led him to put in less than 100% on his day job. Only someone who is being emotionally irrational would buy that line of bull.
A few random thoughts:
Before the McBride/Poronto meltdown, I had the sense ESPN was preparing to go into mourning. Can you imagine, a Braves win televised on ESPN? I think they would have had a hard time recovering from that.
Before last night, I thought if we could have a bullpen with Ray, McBride, and maybe Poronto then fill the rest with rookies and whoever else, we might have a chance (it couldn’t get any worse then it already was). So naturally, right after I come to this conclusion, those three give up a million runs and lose the game.
McBride looked really good on Ortiz/Ramirez, and, as much as I hate to agree with Joe Morgan and Jon Miller, he might indeed have lost his concentration. If that is the case, this hopefully taught him a lesson and it won’t happen again.
Francoeur seems to have a flair for dramatics, and, right before he hit his home run I told my cat it was going to happen. So, if all of his at-bats could come at dramatic times, we’d have a real stud!
Jenny,
You KNOW I am a huge fan of you & your posts but I take your comments on visiting fans with a giant grain of salt, to be fair, because you are also a Red Sox fan.
Re: Colin – JS and his book
At the end of the day, I feel my way, you feel yours. I don’t think either of us are going to change their minds on this so we respectfully, disagree.
Re: Jenny, Smoltz and his role
I have stated my personal and very strong opinion that it seems FAR easier these days to find a starting pitcher as opposed to a relief pitcher. Smoltz and Chipper’s refusal the last 2 years to switch from their current roles have very much hurt the team. I stand by this.
I love them both, but Smoltz would have been far more help as the closer and we could have gotten another starter.
Chipper at first base would have meant Betemit or Marte rather then Adam Freaking LaRoche.
End of story in my book.
Oh..and I will say it again…Jeff Schultz is my hero now for writing that column on Schuerholz. I agree w/ him 100%.
Anyone heard any good rumors?
Marte is a bust, he’s nothing more than a good AAA player at this point. He does have some upside unlike our players. Its time to move Chipper to 1st and if he says no its time to cut the tie. Andruw, Thomson, Sosa, and Hudson are our only pieces for rebuilding next year. What would you do? I dont want a fire sale, but our only way to rebuild is too do so. I want the rotation next year to be Smoltz, Huddy, Hampton, Davies, James, but even w/ Foster and Boyer coming back we have a ??? bullpen. We have to get a Shields, Linebrink, Nathan type of a reliever. Can Boyer be a lights out closer, probably not.
Another Question: If we do trade Andruw, should Frenchy move to center? If so, we need two good outfield bats and more speed on the bases…How did Thorman look in the outfield?
csg,
I think there does seem to be a prevailing feeling that the Smoltz-Hudson-Hampton-Davies-james group will be the 2007 rotation though if we could actually find a team to eat Hampton’s contract, then we would just keep Horam in that spot.
Either way, the starting pitching would be fine.
The problem is the bullpen and will anyone do anything to fix it. It’s a mess. I am up for scrapping the whole group and starting FRESH.
I did hear the closer we drafted from oregon State is a STUD–at least a future stud.
By the way, even if it’s straight up, I would gladly like to see John Thomson dealt to Pittsburgh even JUST for Salmon Torres.
Thomson is throwing meatballs out there and any new relievers are a good thing.
Just to chime in on the bullpen . . . .
It’s a total mess now, but during most of the off-season it looked like we had many more options. Blaine Boyer, who could have been our closer and a real savior, got hurt. Joey Devine, despite the fact that many people have prematurely buried him, looked like he could contribute. Anthony Lerew looked like a contributor. Chuck James was out there and pitching great. Injuries have played a bigger part than many people realize. These guys looked like solid options in a reliever market that had gone haywire (BJ Ryan, anyone?). That’s the kind of gamble that has to be made. I, for one, was actually optomistic about these young guys along with McBride to be a good young bullpen. It didn’t work, but the strategy itself wasn’t really wrong. Going with young guys has worked before and is certainly a better option that expensive releivers.
Anyway, I just wanted to mention Boyer, Devine, Lerew and James. They were suposed to help, and you couldn’t have really forseen all of them being unable to.
Alex, the kid we drafted from Oregon State, Gunderson, has a future in the Majors, if any, as a LOOGY. He throws, like, 50 miles per hour and is about 2 feet tall. He will not be closing games in the big leagues.
I didn’t find the ESPN idiots as annoying as usual last night. Maybe it’s just that their criticisms of the Braves are actually valid for once. The Red Sox fans were more annoying Friday and Saturday when the games were all Sox. The Braves fans drowned them out during the bottom of the 7th and for the first 2 outs of the 8th last night.
As for Shuerholz, I agree he deserves a lot of criticism for moves made and not made last offseason (really the last 3-4 years). I never got the sense he made a serious effort to sign any of the free agent closers that were available. It seemed like he made below market offers hoping somebody would take it based just on the lure of pitching for a 14 year division winner. For 14 years, cobbling together a bullpen out of spare parts worked to win us a division (although it was often the cause of our post-season failure). Finally and predictably, it stopped working. We could have gotten a lot more for Marte than Renteria. Why didn’t they trust Betemit after he hit .300 last year? Marte could have been used to get a closer, first baseman, outfielder, or top of the line starter instead.
I say trade Smoltz if you can get the right deal for him and he’s willing to go. As much as Bobby is overpitching him due to the bad bullpen, it’s a real question in my mind whether John can even survive this season physically in order to pitch well next year. Better to trade him to another club now and get something while you can. It’ll be very painful to see him go. He was always my favorite of the big 3. But keep in mind that trading Dale Murphy and Doyle Alexander was instrumental in setting up the Braves for their run of success.
Buster Olney, says the Braves could be calling about Bob Wickman.
http://insider.espn.go.com/espn/blog/index?name=olney_buster&action=login&appRedirect=http%3a%2f%2finsider.espn.go.com%2fespn%2fblog%2findex%3fname%3dolney_buster
Cant read all of the article
Jay,
Fantastic point about BJ Ryan.
The Braves have not been willing to commit long term to a reliever, but 5 years to a guy who’s like 25 or 26 years old with sick stuff like BJ Ryan, it’s worth the risk.
It’s going to take a multi year deal if we ever want a bullpen stud and we are going to have to take a chance like that. If it backfires, the fans at least can’t be upset w/ management because at least they would have tried.
Making Judy Reitsma our closer 1 year after Dan Kolb completely failed (and was so obviously going to based on his peripherals) was a disgrace. And trying to “sell” Judy Reitsma in January and February to us Braves fans who do read the occasional stat sheet was a bigger disgrace.
But yes…you are completely fair that we all expected more from Devine and Boyer. Those failures hurt big.
50mph is about 35mph faster that Paranto’s heat.
Alex, Jay was saying that Ryan’s contract was ridiculous and indicative of the kind of market for “name” relievers that was in place this offseason. He was saying it’s a good thing we didn’t break the bank for him. Also, Ryan’s 29, I believe.
can Lerew be converted to a closer role or does he have more value to us as a closer? His stat sheet looks like crap as a starter!
I tend to largely agree with Jay–I thought it wasn’t a bad strategy headed into the year. Of course, I’m assuming the Braves knew more about Boyer’s injury than I did, so their reliance on him would be less wise than mine.
I don’t know what I want. I’m like Kyle in that I don’t want to even discuss trading Smoltz, for purely sentimental reasons. Same with Andruw and Chipper.
I hate the thought of trading Hudson, too, because I like him a lot. Still, the thought of the prospects we might be able to net for him does make me drool.
more value as a starter, sorry.
Wickman, oh boy antoher ground ball pitcher! Buster Olney is a retard.
John Smoltz will never be traded. Ever. Even if we decide to sell, we will hol on to Smoltz for next season.
ESPN wants us to send Smoltz and Andruw to Boston for Capler and Bill Simmons. Then deal Chipper and Hudson to the Yanks for Bucky Dent’s bat and an old photo of Mikey Mantle tossing a batting helment.
How about this trade:
Hudson to the Yankees
Saltalamacchia, Lerew, Hughes, Jackson to the Marlins
Dontrelle and Farnsworth to the Braves
I’m not really feeling very sentimental about ANY of the current members of our team right now. The question should be who ISN’T part of the firesale, IMO, and how quickly can we move the old guys before they become valueless. If there’s an AL contender who Chipper will agree to be traded to (assuming he’d be the DH), pull the trigger. Smoltz in Detroit, whatever.
Saying goodbye to the old guard, goodbye to the freakin’ Chop, and hello to a bunch of a new prospects (and hopefully a new OWNER) would be a wonderful psychological cleansing. For me, anyways.
I want Farnsworth again like I want to get shot in the face.
I would honestly rather have Hudson right now. The Marlins are above us right now and aren’t going to trade with us. The Yankess would want Willis too.
Is it me or does it look as if we cure every other team’s problems. Look at the defensive plays against us in this series. Kappler and Trott both making diving catches and saving their pitchers. Their hits fall and ours dont. What do you think Bobby does when he sees someone like Gordon, Wagner, or Papelbon come out. We have Reitsma and Ray.
Maybe we should go after Hafner and Wickman, if the Indians continue their struggles. What price tag would that be? I dont know what to do…
Where will Hafner play? Have you seen Jordan at first, Hafner is about that good with the glove. They have some middle relievers in Cleveland I would like to have. I think McBride will be our closer soon. He looked good against Papit and Ortiz, then on the walks he was just missing
I’d take Farnsworth in a heartbeat. And the Yankees may WANT Willis…but they can’t get him. They don’t have enough.
Farns isn’t a closer. He doesn’t have what it takes. He is getting killed in New York. He went to the Yanks not to clsoe. He fears it.
He was flawless down the stretch last year until we played in that phone booth of a ballpark in Houston. He has what it takes A LOT more than anyone else on this team does.
Still, Farnsworth was kind of a throw-in in my proposal. If Willis can be had, a combo of our prospects and Yanks prospects could get it done, with Hudson going to the Yanks. Think about it. It makes sense.
I doubt the Indians would trade Hafner for our entire organization. Hell, if I were the Indians, I wouldn’t (but would love Hafner!).
Bob Wickman…again, that’s like sticking Elmer’s Glue on the Titanic.
Stu…I can always count on you to show up to prove me wrong or argue 🙂 At least it’s all more “constructive”
That said…admittedly, i am not an expert on the Braves draft choices (and not a big College Baseball follower), but my wife & I were having lunch with a big group of friends Saturday afternoon and one of the guys in that group is an Oregon State alumni/fan and he (admittedly biased) was a huge Gunderson fan and felt he could help the Braves.
But again…I had no idea what type of pitcher.
Honestly, I won’t say this about too many players, I could count them on one hand, but if Farnsworth returned to the Braves that would get me to stop rooting for them.
I don’t want some jerkoff who chose about the same amount of $ to be a set up guy in New York over a closer’s job in Atlanta. All because he’s a media hog and wants his stupid face on Tv all the time and for ESPN to “fawn” over him. F— Farnsworth. I would rather have Judy Reitsma back out there tossing meatballs then ever see Farnsworth in a Bravos uniform again. The thought of that guy at turner Field again pisses me off.
Smitty,
Hafner could be curled in the fetal position at first but he is now one of the best hitters in Baseball and his offense would more then make up for his lackluster defense.
Yeah…I would take Travis Hafner and be OK with that 🙂
I agree Alex
Farnsworth can’t cut it in big games
Hafner is not as bad as Jordan, but the Indians would not trade Hafner at all, considering he took a low-budget deal to stay and the fans love him there…..he is the next Thome according to them, and with his numbers, its hard to argue against that.
Thorman seems to be head and shoulders better than LaRoache. He looked overmatched against Schilling, but a few more expienced hitters have had that same look as well. If LaRoache isn’t keen on working on his fastball/slider combo as a reliever, I think its time to cut bait. Thorman = Younger, cheaper, faster, BETTER
This team lacks team speed, and while trading Andruw after the season is a possibility, we have no one who could replace him. Francoeur seems better fitted for right and Langerhauns is a #4 outfielder at best, not a starting left-fielder.
Again, I’ll beat a dead horse and continue to say the Braves should trade for Carl Crawford. Unreal, almost sick talent with an ability to leadoff/play left for us this year, then move to center next. More realistically, if the Twins faulter and fall out and we aren’t 50 some games back JS might go after Shannon Stewart.
I am hoping that with Betemits recent struggles in semi-full time play that people will quiet down and concede that Marcus isn’t 100% the problem, Betemit would not be that great of an answer, and we need to look outside the organization for a leadoff hitter. Crawford would transform parts of the lineup;
1. Crawford
2. Giles/Renteria (I’d go with Edgar)
3. Chipper
4. AJ
5. McCann
6. Francoeur
7. LaRoache (Or Thornton, probably not till next year)
8. Giles (until he gets hot, where then you could shift him up, move LaRoache down or trade Adam and play Thornton. LaRoache and Thomson to Pittsburgh for Craig Wilson and Solomon Torres??)
Drastic changes aren’t need, but a boost of confidence supplied by the front office through a big trade would give the Braves that mental boost that Schultz talked about in his article in the AJC. Confidence, especially among the hitters, not a lack of talent, is what is the problem on offense. The Bullpen?? Dear Lord….i’ll do another post for that.
I don’t think any wholesale changes should be made until the Braves know definitely who their new ownership will be. Any trades (read: salary dumps) made until then would be premature.
I wonder how different our season would be right now if brian mccann had been batting 3rd or 4th ? It just seems that we have left a high number of “risp” that has led to starting pitching leaving early due to lack of run support
I don’t get people’s fascination with someone who blew a big lead against Houston and cost us that game. A guy who gave up a homer to BRAD AUSMUS!!! Cone on people, you butcher Sheff for stinking in the playoffs, which I do as well, but stay consistant b/c Farnsworth was the same. Great season, lack of “bringing home the goods” during the post-season, I DON’T WANT FARNSWORTH!
Plus, why would you want someone who didn’t want the job to begin with?? He turned it down for more money and NY, why would he be happy back in Atlanta if he didnt’ want to be here to begin with?
Again, drastic changes are not completely necessary, but changes non the less.
Remlinger is a lot like Foster, remember him? He’s good as a 6th inning/mop-up lefty who should be used twice a week, no more.
McBride, despite yesterday, is our best bullpen guy. I know Ray has been great too, but McBride has the best stuff and is still working on a spring training schedule b/c of his lack of work in Feb.
With McBride and Ray we have two guys you could use in the 7th inning. Get a few outs, but are not your main horses. What we need is a two-punch effort that will bring stability to the bullpen.
The Angles, with Shields and K-Rod, have that sorta thing, as do the Mets with Sanchez and Wagner. Obviously there is no way we can just go out and get that this season, but some sorta move to acquire a top-closer should be job #1 for JS.
Allowing people to fall into a role would, in my opinion, improve the bullpen dramatically by allowing the pitchers to settle into a role. Bobby, JS, McDowell, us fans, even the guy selling hotdogs on the pavilion doesn’t know who comes out of the pen when a runner is on in the bottom of the 8th with one out.
Remember the glory days of: 7th inning, yep, time for Chris Hammond…..ok, 8th inning, yep, time for Remlinger…..well, now its the ninth so its time for Smoltz……Holmes, etc., knew their roles as 7th inning guys with Hammond, but mostly worked the 6th or special situations if they arose.
This is our problem, lack of defined roles and a top-closer.
Available answers: Williamson, Ramon Ramirez, Juan Rincon, Rafael Soriano, Jon Rauch…..those are some of the names that might be available, although Williamson is on the DL, Soriano is probably less likely to be traded than anyone, and Ramirez (sick numbers for the Rockies) and Rauch are untested for a full season.
Oh, I take back my one comment about acquiring Solomon Torres. Yeah, his numbers are horrible, even his strikeout to walk ratio. Stay away JS!!
BURDOGS,
Well, I am one of the folks on here who’s been aggravated way too often by Cox’s in-game decision making, particular the last few years.
McCann’s move up in the order should have happened by the middle of May, and no later.
It’s one of the many things (like Judy Reitsma as closer) that took way too long to fix or adjust.
Betemit
Giles
Renteria
McCann
Jones
Jones
Frenchy
Diaz/Thorman
looks like a good line-up to me. Contact hitters in the top of the lineup, power hitter in the middle to drive them home!
csg, depending on who’s pitching, I think Frenchy could actually bat ninth.
csg,
Betemit really doesn’t seem like a fit for leadoff, kinda like Giles, and I take it you have him at 1st base. Plus, I’d love to add team speed, which obviously lacks right now on this team.
I love the idea of picking up Crawford for LF/leadoff. Diaz could platoon RF with Frenchy when he’s slumping.
It’s been all to clear to me that good starting pitching won’t win us games without a potent offense and a reliable bullpen. That said, losing Hudson would not be such a bad thing. When Davies comes back, we’ll have Smoltz, Thomson, Sosa, Ramirez, Davies, James, and possibly Cormier as options for starters. Thomson, Sosa, or James could be valuable in our bullpen, so if we get a good middle reliever and/or a leadoff guy for Hudson, I say do it.
This kind of optimism may give me a tumor, but I won’t start “thinking toward next year” unless we’re more than 10 games out after the All Star Break. If we can get within 10, I’ll use the 1993 season as my driving force the rest of the year.
i’m not an advocate of constantly changing the line-up, but it’s insane to not have your best hitter in run producing part of the line-up. I am a huge chipper fan, and he has been a very vital part to their past success but maybe sticking him in the 5 hole at this point of his career might be best for him and the team. Couldn’t hurt?
I flew to Atlanta for this series and the Toronto series. I was highly dissapointed that Red Sox overwhelmingly took over the stadium. All I could hear was “Lets go Red Sox” at the games I went to. If I wanted to go to an away game I would have droven 3 hours from OKC to Dallas to watch the Rangers play. Oh well, lets see if we can sweep the Blue Jays. I’m sure Blue Jay nation will not be in attendance.