ESPN.com – MLB – Box Score – Braves at Astros
Horacio gave up a three-run homer in the first and seven runs in 1 2/3 innings, before getting literally knocked out on a line drive to the forehead. Hopefully he’ll be okay. Villareal came in to make it nine. Jordan dropped a ball on a pickoff that could have gotten them out of the first unscathed, but at a certain point the pitcher has to bear responsibility. The game was 9-4, and not wanting to risk a comeback that would lead to an eighteen-inning game, Bobby brought in Reitsma to give up five runs in the sixth.
I don’t really want to recap this debacle. Let’s talk about who has to go.
Needs to retire: Jordan, Pratt.
Needs to be sent to Richmond:Â Francoeur (who did have a homer and a triple, but that hardly makes up for the rest of his play this series), Orr, Paronto, Yates, Villareal.
Needs to go to the bullpen: Thomson, Sosa.
Needs to check into some sort of clinic:Â Reitsma, Marcus (0-5 today).
Needs to be playing most of the time:Â Betemit.
Call up:Â Brayan Pena, Jurries, L’il Tony, Prado, Duran, Barry, Stockman, James, Baker.
This is a really radical restructuring, and won’t happen, but this just isn’t working.
Renteria had four hits (one a homer), and the Braves actually had eleven hits as a team, but it really didn’t matter.
Chris Reitsma is one of those extreme born-again Christians who feels the need to get crucified every appearance.
Let’s get James back up, make a trade for an everday first-baseman (this platoon nonsense is getting old) and give Betemit some time at second and lead-off.
Paronto is actually been average. I like the quick hook on him after a great 1 2/3 inning. Then Reitsma being allowed to give up hit after hit. I can only hope a wave of reality is sweeping over Bobby and JS.
I am not trying to be sarcastic or funny at all, but I really, really felt sorry for Chris Reitsma today. There is no denying that he is terrible, but I thought it was a little much to leave him in there after getting drilled like that. As a fan, sometimes I think sometimes we all lose sight of the fact that these are real guys with real lives outside of the ballpark. I really felt terrible for him, and while I hope he never pitches for the Braves again, I hope he regains his effectiveness somewhere down the line. Having said that, he should be DFA’d immediately. I think LaRoche is a better option out of the ‘pen right now.
Damn son !!!!!!!!….. look on the bright side francoer had a nice game. Why do you people want him sent down? that would mess up his confidence, not to mention you want him to get the big league experience. He’s to good to be sent down. What good would it prove if he is hitting well in AAA Im glad some of you have your GM thinking hats on.
CHEERS
Mets up 3-0 and pedro is pitching= sweep of the D-Backs
Hey rob, don’t know what you meant by that, but there are a lot of christians in here who may get offended by that. Just keep the religious stuff out of here, if you will.
Hey brad, lighten up a little.
What do you blame the Braves’ pitching woes on (assign percentage of blame):
1) McDowell
2) Bad luck
3) WBC
4) Injuries
Not my rule, dude. Take it up with Mac. I’ve just seen how one comment leads to an entire discussion, and we don’t want that.
Malone,
#1, John Schuerholz.
Not much else to blame.
Who do you think has the bigger headache right now, Chris Reitsma or Horacio Ramirez?
Seriously, Reitsma has to go on the DL immediately if the Braves still have any hope for him. Shipping him out there day after day isn’t helping. I’ve never seen a pitcher lose it like he has. He’s not wild and he hasn’t lost his stuff, he just gets rocked. And never have I respected someone so much for playing so bad.
Thank you, Brad. JS deserves all the blame for the makeup of this pitching staff. While Leo was great, he’s not a miracle worker. Just look at the Orioles current team ERA for proof.
The offense is not that big of a problem. Giles is troubling, but the talent is obviously there.
A little more Diaz in LF, more from 2B and 1B and this lineup is stellar. Chipper’s finding a groove. Francouer is not that big of an issue if McCann and Diaz continue to hit for average. We’ve got good hitting pitchers too.
I would bet on Renteria and Giles flip-flopping soon. Something “radical” like Jurries or Betemit at 1B needs to be tried. It’s nothing certain, though, considering Betemit hasn’t played 1B and Jurries hasn’t played much in the majors. I’ve admired the patience of the organization recently, it’s what has earned us some glory with a depleted roster, but it’s time to make some adjustments.
We’re certainly not out of it. All this resignation from a large part of the fanbase is BS. I don’t care how close to Atlanta some of you live or how long some of you have been a fan of the team or how long some of you have been watching them on TV, some of you have this persistent, entitled whining going on and it sucks. It doesn’t make you a great fan to have been around for a long time or that you are close in proximity to the team. “Passionate” fans, as someone put it in the game thread, don’t tear down our heroes and everything they’ve built because of the worst funk we’ve had in 15 years. Spoiled, entitled fans do.
There’s absolutely no justification for taking runs at Cox and JS. We haven’t been a dominant team for some years now and we managed to earn some glory out of these years. Braves baseball still matters every single day and some people are destroying and tainting this privilege.
Some people are already conceding or predicting our doom with the tough AL east schedule coming up and it’s pathetic. We’re down, but this stretch could ignite our team.
We may even continue to get stomped and the Mets may pull away over this stretch.
We may also keep the defecit the same, shake up the pen a little, juggle the lineup some and make a run.
Either way, it shouldn’t change the attitudes around here.
It’s not looking good, for sure, but it doesn’t make you passionate to be a total a$$ about the situation. Moaning and finger pointing is the typical sign of a loser in sports, on and off the field. Our organization deserves more than some entitled bastards tearing it down.
To steal from Lee Elia, “This is a disheartening f***ing situation. It will take more than a” [less worse than that 1983 Cubbie] “start to destory the makeup of this club.”
In the end, the momentum and success that our organization constructed may have turned a lost season for some teams into one that still matters, and one over which the fan base is still alive.
That’s pretty damn cool…
It HAS been a terribly unlucky season so far with all the pitching injuries. And what we have left doesn’t say much.
I don’t think anybody who posts on this blog is jumping ship. By the mere fact of registering either disgust,optimism, etc., it shows that everyone here cares about how this team does. I am no less a fan now than I was for the past 14 years or when the team was the absolute dregs of MLB in the mid to late 80’s. The funny thing is that the team isn’t awful, it’s just not up to expectations over the last decade and a half, albeit with no immediate relief in sight. I agree that immediate changes need to be made because this year’s bunch just ain’t cuttin’ it and the Mets and Phils look good. For C’sakes, I’m rambling. Bobby, JS, dump the crap, bring up the kids – they cannot be any worse than the current product.
JS addresses some of the team’s concerns in the NY Times today:
http://www.nytimes.com/2006/06/11/sports/baseball/11chass.html
“By the mere fact of registering either disgust,optimism, etc., it shows that everyone here cares about how this team does”
That’s not the issue, CJ. I’m not disputing whether or not people care about the team or whether or not people are true fans of the team. No one can call anyone else’s “care” of the team into question. I can’t really say who is and isn’t a fan without reading minds.
I am saying, however, that some people have corrupted reasons for “caring” about the Braves. Some people are obviously putting themselves and their ideas, feelings, etc. in front of the organization’s worth.
Slandering Cox and JS is weak, oppurtunistic, relativist, and sophmoric garbage. Simply because fans and people who “care” about the Atlanta Braves are doing it, doesn’t preclude them for being called on their crap.
I”ll always defend my team from entitled, self-important nobodies, whether or not they are a fan of the Atlanta Braves.
Mac, you say it will “never happen”, but JS has never been afraid to do those kinds of moves before. And this is about the point in the season he tends to do it. Last year, he cut bait on both corner outfielders about now. He’s turned over the whole bullpen about now before.
I expect some big moves soon. One of Betemit, Renteria, or Giles is going to be traded.
I’m normally not a negative guy, but I’m going to officially declare the division streak dead. I hope I’m wrong and that someone is quoting these words back at me in a few months; I just don’t see us overcoming a 10 game deficit in half a season. Sure, it could happen, but I don’t think it will.
Believe me when I say that I would be the happiest guy in the world to eat these words in a few months. 🙂
“Needs to retire: Jordan, Pratt.”
Jordan: Yes
Pratt: Yes
“Needs to be sent to Richmond: Francoeur (who did have a homer and a triple, but that hardly makes up for the rest of his play this series), Orr, Paronto, Yates, Villareal.”
Francoeur: No
Orr: No
Paronto: No
Yates: Yes
Villarreal: Maybe
“Needs to go to the bullpen: Thomson, Sosa.”
Thomson: Maybe
Sosa: Yes
“Needs to check into some sort of clinic: Reitsma, Marcus (0-5 today).”
Giles: Maybe
Reitsma: Yes
“Needs to be playing most of the time: Betemit.”
Yes.
“Call up: Brayan Pena, Jurries, L’il Tony, Prado, Duran, Barry, Stockman, James, Baker.”
Pena: Yes
Jurries: Maybe
T. Pena: No
Prado: No
Duran: No
Barry: No
Stockman: Maybe
James: Yes
Baker: Maybe
raoul (aka mrs. schueholz or mrs. cox, jury is still undecided), thanks for the bashing. now go do your little things you do for your hubby to make them make this team better.
To the fellow Rob, Brad was right, there are Christians on here that are really offended by that and I’m one of them. And Kenny, to tell someone to lighten up about that is unreasonable. What if I came on a baseball forum and started disrespecting and trying to tear down your father? Same thing with that garbage Rob was saying.
With that said, a born-again Christian doesn’t mutilate himself for worship. Sounds like he’s one of the millions of people taking the Da Vinci Code seriously. Chris Reitsma isn’t an albino cultist.
So, looking at that article, it appears we are waiting for the second half, because “we’ve always been a second half team” (JS). Whoever advanced that theory in the game thread, congratulations, you just won the collective cow everybody is having.
Raoul, I have to disagree with this bit about “slandering” Cox and JS. They are not gods. Maybe they are to you, but the second you lose your critical eye is the second things start to go wrong. This team is more full of holes than an overlaundered shirt. When that happens, it’s time to look at the guy who put it together. Now, it is not JS’s fault that some of our regulars aren’t doing that well. He could reasonably expect more from Marcus, and Langerhans and Francoeur have both been pretty bad. Thomson has sucked, as well. Smoltz and Hudson generally deliver. Beyond that? Relying on HoRam? Please. Sosa? The only thing consistent about him is his inconsistency. Dude has been pretty horrific. And the bullpen? Well, it’s an unmitigated disaster, and there’s really no way of talking around it. Last year around this time, Theo Epstein came out and said something like, “If this is the best this pitching staff can do, then I really miscalculated and it’s time for changes.” Ditto here. If JS actually thought this bullpen was going to be any good, he really miscalculated and he needs to fix it.
As far as Bobby goes, I don’t see why he should be immune to criticism, either. Nobody is. Batting Brian McCann 8th with his offense this year is complete and utter nonsense. There is absolutely no excuse for it. Behind Brian Jordan? Has he gone completely senile? Continuing to let Marcus rot in the leadoff spot night after night is also inexcusable. I know he likes to give players a long leash, and that’s good, but 60 games is too long. It isn’t working, and it’s time for change. And somebody else needs to be at 1B, either Chipper or Betemit. I don’t want to hear any “well, Betemit’s never played there before” chorus. You have to start somewhere. Either put him at first or at third with Chipper at first. There is nothing wrong with change. We’ve had a good system for 15 years now, but the problem with systems is that you get too comfortable with them and don’t change fast enough when they stop working. Stuff ain’t working now.
Ryan — enough of that.
And no religion and no politics. Sheesh, this is the worst part of this slump, everyone starts trying to piss everyone else off.
I don’t know why, but I have a feeling a trade will happen today or tomorrow what with the off-day tomorrow.
from the mouth of raoul duke during game thread:
“You’re assuming WB is better at 1B than Jordan without knowing, that wouldn’t be a good managerial decision.”
look above at your quote (#12) in ths thread. you were trying to say how idiotic others were when we were suggesting betemit to 1st in the game thread. now, you take our thoughts and turn them into your own? what does that make you? A walking contradiction.
Mac, I’m really sorry. I would gladly talk baseball, which I click this site looking to do, but things like that require a defense from someone like me. At a time where we should be listing things like you have to make the team better, we’re talking about an individual player’s religious beliefs. Weak.
sorry mac, but he was throwing cheap shots at everyone during the game thread. once again, i apologize
Jenny, I think the reasons against Chipper or Betemit going to first is the fact that it’s the middle of the season. Usually when someone changes positions, it’s in the offseason where they have no pressure or consequences while they adapt to their new position. I’m sure Betemit could hack it there, and we may not have much more to lose, but it’s just not a smart idea to throw someone in a new position in the middle of the year.
If I was on during the game thread, I would have definitely been backing Raoul Duke. Now, I do believe JS and Cox deserve citicism, but he’s right that when we’re playing well, you don’t hear anything about these guys, but when we’re not playing well, like now, they’re getting destroyed through words. You’re right, certain moves are questionable, but sometimes we have to take a step back and look from these guys’ perspective and realize that they are with these players and coaches everyday, and they know things we don’t. To think that from our perspective, a fan watching this team on tv, that we have all the answers is a little naive.
Well put, Jenny. Although, again, I’m not sure what good it does replacing Laroche with Betemit. Roach, for as much crap as he gets here, has been pretty solid the last month and a half. His OPS is nearing 900 in that time.
I’m fine with Betemit taking over Jordan’s platoon role there, but outright replacing Roach doesn’t make a lot of sense to me. Wilson needs to be taking fly balls in the outfield.
As awful as Chris Reitsma has been, it is still disheartening & sad to see the beating he’s taking.
Right now, I’d contend that he probably is a better albino cultist than he is a Major League pitcher.
Ryan C, don’t even play that man. Just because you think he’s throwing around cheap shots, doesn’t mean it’s cool to throw insults like that. First of all, you’re really disrespecting the ladies you’re comparing him to, and you’re insinuating that anyone who supports Cox and JS even when the team is struggling is their wives, people that support them unconditionally. Raoul Duke isn’t doing that; he’s just giving credit to the people who built this franchise.
I dunno, man. That albino was preeeeeetty white… haha
I’m a fan of Paraonto. He seems to come through in the clutch, like that game Davies left injured. Also, if we ever get in a brawl (I think we need to so some of the Braves can release some anger), wow, I’d like to see all 6’5″ 260 lbs. of Chad level Pedro or the Yankees.
I give them credit for how they’ve built the franchise, but when that doesnt work, who ELSE would you criticize? They need to admit that what they tried didnt work, like the Mondesi thing last year, and make changes soon before we lose any more ground.
That’s not criticism; just advice. I don’t BLAME them for it not working–they made a plan and tried it. The PROBLEM is their inability to fix things now that it’s painfully obvious it didn’t work.
I am really scratching my head about the Mets. They are playing out of their minds. They didn’t just sweep the D-backs; they demolished them. I don’t think any game was close. I guess they were bound to overachieve, eventually. I am just not so sure that the NYM pitching staff can stay this good. Martinez is a given, but Glavine? Soler? Trachsel? El Duque? Does this look like the best team in the NL?
Anyway, I’m still not convinced the Mets will be the team we wind up chasing. That’s why we may not be out of it. We’re only 3 1/2 games behind the Phils. Here’s hoping the Amazin’s stop winning every one-run game and return to their self-destructive ways.
That does not change the fact that the Braves have to find a way to not be awful really soon. The tailspin we are in has to be stopped. I’m not sure any team is this bad.
I’m for calling up Stockman and maybe Startup. Also Chuck James. We probably ultimately need another starting pitcher. More playing time for Betemit (and Diaz, I guess). LaRoche and Francoeur have not been huge problems. It’s the pitching that needs to be fixed.
Here’s the thing for me…This is exactly the kind of teeth gnashing, finger pointing, lashing out, and pointless “Who’s a real fan?” debating that I’ve loved seeing on Mets’ fans blogs and boards the last few years. I just hate to see it here.
That’s all.
Well, the problem is that it’s not their fault players are badly underachieving. Based on last year’s numbers, you could assume Langerhans, Francouer, Marcus, Sosa, Reitsma, and Thomson would all have good seasons. They’ve killed the team. Also, Smoltz, Hudson, and Chipper are having sub-par seasons by their standards. Not to mention the injuries that JS and Cox have no control over, and you have a lot of things that you couldn’t have possibly prepared for. The way this team is playing, there doesn’t seem to be a feasable solution. Put Betemit over LaRoche? As Mac and others have pointed out, LaRoche is not the problem. Stick Betemit in the OF? Won’t work; they already tried that in winter ball. Another provision JS and Cox tried to make that didn’t work.
I suppose I have such a problem with the criticism because there’s really not something they can do that will guarantee success, and everyone is acting like Wilson Betemit is gonna make up 10 games in the standings. Let’s be realistic.
By the way, Scott Thorman was 3-for-4 today in Richmond, with two more doubles. He was International League player of the week last week, hitting a bunch of homers. He’s up to 14 now on the season with a .950 OPS (BA of .316). Jurries is hitting .233 with an OPS in the .650 range. He has one homer in an injury shortened campaign (about 1/3 of the season). If we are thinking of calling someone up for 1st base/OF duty, surely it would be Thorman, not Jurries.
As ububba has said, these established major leaguers will have to start playing better. It’s as simple as that. We can blame TP, McDowell, Cox and JS, but they don’t have magic potions that will turn these established players back into the players they’re supposed to be. It just doesn’t work that way. I’m for bringing up some guys like Stockman and Thorman to mix things up a bit (preferably for my man Reitsma and BJ), but it’s not like we’ve got Jim Thome and Pedro Martinez waiting in the minors…
there ya go, a braves fan who admits he goes on Mets blogs “for years” no less. so for all those…” you dont see braves fans on mets bloggs do you?” It happens all the time, It’s really not that big of a deal
15-2……my god what an a$$ beating.
Playing Betemit wont fix the problem; it’s more what it represents. It signifies that change is coming. And that brings hope.
And based on last year, you could EASILY assume that Reitsma and Sosa would have bad seasons. Reitsma was bad last year, made the closer by default, struggled, then we had to sign Farnsworth. So for JS to go into this season thinking he was a ‘closer’ is lunacy.
Sosa was the luckiest pitcher alive last season. Had to figure that would even out this year.
Plus, you had to assume the rookies would have sophomore slumps as pitchers adjust.
If *I* know all this, why didn’t JS?
Looks like Parish and I may be on the same page. Also, I think we’ve forgotten that provisions are already being made. If you remember, they’ve been working Thorman in the outfield this past week or so. Who knows, he could be the next Charles Thomas…
Of course, Brad Baker probably won’t be called up since he was traded a month ago.
Maybe I’m too late here but, um, im a christian and a catholic at that (we specialize in the most depressing parts of the religion…like the crucificton) and I thought the Reitsma comment was a hoot.
I didn’t read it as an attack on a guys religion at all, just a funny way of noting how bad Reitsma is
I thought it was funny too. 😀 Anyway, guess who started the Arizona game today.
Russ Ortiz.
I think that explains everything.
I wasn’t personally offended either, just wanted to stave off future comments.
Let’s not bemoan Brad Baker. He’s pitching with extreme mediocrity in Pawtucket. Of course, he was pitching pretty good in Richmond, so maybe he’s just adjusting. It’s a small sample size in both places. Is there a difference between AL and NL minor league styles like there is at the major league level? I notice Andy Marte has been OPSing .702 with a SLG under .400. Interesting.
My suggestion: Forget rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic. Trade Andruw, Giles, and Reitsma to the Angels for B. Wood, Kendrick, McPherson, Shields, and Juan Rivera. Shields becomes closer, Rivera plays OF, Betemit or Kendrick play 2b, McPherson plays backup/ AAA at 1b and 3b (great Chipper insurance/ replacement), and we save a ton of cash that enable us to be a free agent player next season, with an outsanding young core. It’s time to give up this year and prepare a nucleus for another 15-year run, and the Angels might even do it – they really need offense and are built for now.
I’ll agree with the pitchers you want to send down. Makes no difference, but Orr and Francoeur should stay up. You send Francoeur down I doubt it does anything to help him improve, and Orr is just an all round sub. The only reason the team has Pratt, is because he’s still kinda of a mentor for Brian. My guess is that they find someone else next season, because B. Pena, can’t hit worth a danm.
Ryan c, it’s a lot different to say the radical idea of moving WB to 1B should be explored than saying replace Jordan and/orLaRoche with Betemit.
I stand by both my qoutes. We can’t assume that Betemit is even as good as the struggling Jordan at 1st base. What’s prevented guys like Piazza from moving to 1st and allowed guys like Pujols to make the switch is athleticism. Chipper is much more athletic than Betemit and would, I think, make a better move to 1st. There’s no sign of that happening now.
Jurries is more deserving of a shot, considering he’s a first baseman. However, if Chipper won’t be moved, than Betemit should be tested in practice and mop-up situations at first.
Handing him first base without knowing he could play 1B as well as even Jordan, wouldn’t be, to qoute myself as you have, “a good managerial decision.”
It’s the pitching, guys. Nice to get Betemit more ABs, but pitching is what must be fixed to salvage the season.
Look at where the Braves rank as team in MLB in these statistical categories.
Hitting: Runs scored (10th), BA (16th), HR (9th), SLG (12th).
Pitching: ERA (19th – BTW the Mets are 1st), BAA (24th), K/9 (21st), WHIP (24th).
Juggling bats may help a little, but we must improve the pitching from top to bottom. Our aces haven’t been “acey” enough, looking more like #2 or #3 starters, and the back of the rotation and pen have been horrendous. We need nearly everyone on the pitching staff to raise their game or be replaced. Remlinger and Ray are about the only guys that I just hope maintain their level of performance. Everyone else has to be better, but realistically, can that happen?
Regardless of how you take it, religion doesn’t have its place on here. I know I do my fair share of talking about politics and religion, and I know the rules on that. I truly am sorry, but I don’t come here to be offended, and I sure as heck don’t come here looking for jokes about the most gruesome death a man can die and somehow relating that to something in the grand scheme of things as trivial as the game of baseball.
Just a quick aside and I’ll be done with this: NMS, I find your remarks as a “Christian” pretty troubling. Read your Bible; the crucifixion wasn’t depressing. It set you free.
What is sad is these are are best ptichers (save Startup and James)
We don’t want to make a panic move, but we need to do something soon.
If we don’t get a few games back in the standings by the break, we might be shooting for a WC or nothing at all. I figure we need to be with in 6-8 games by the break. A much needed off day tomarrow will help. Maybe we can continue to own the Marlins, or maybe it will all get rained out.
Parish, as a Mets fan, I’ll agree that the rotation is can potentially go south, but then again any rotation can go south. The team though has husbanded reserves both in cash (they can take up to 10 mill in salary) and in the farm (Pelfrey, Bannister, Maine) where they can address the problem should it occur.
The Braves are trying to fill holes, the Mets are looking for the final piece of the puzzle. Don’t be suprised that the Mets make a “F++king A” trade by the deadline. Thanks to your ownership the Braves dont have that flexibility. Even hough the teams are spending roughly the same (101 to 90) the Mets can go up another 10, the Brave cant.
What the Braves take on Mazzone? Are you guys still tracking the ERA of the Orioles as compared to the Braves?
Rob,
That’s two paragraphs talking about something that is not baseball. Please stop.
I said I was done urlhix. You don’t need to tell me to stop.
The O’s staff is doing terrible, I don’t feel like looking up the numbers. Our payrole is under 80 million so that is a 20 million diff and that is a lot.
Rob, I wasn’t telling, I was asking. Big difference. But you never should have posted that to begin with if you wanted to respect the wishes of the site owner and all of the rest of us. Honestly. I know we are all on edge but can we all take it down a notch, please.
ObBaseball- anyone else see Chris Reitsma’s ERA? Now there’s a cry for help.
Brooklynlou,
I agree with your assessment of the Braves payroll flexibility as compared to the Mets (albeit, the Braves actual payroll is closer to $80M when removing players salaries paid by other teams). But, the bottom line is this: If the Mets keep playing this well, the Divsion (and possibly the championship) is theirs.
I think for the Braves to fix their pitching staff the way they must, a trade will be necessary. They would have to pick up an arm to throw into the Hudson/Smoltz mix. The pitcher would have to be up to that level of effectiveness. While the Braves may not be able to take on as much salary as the Mets, they do have more talent on the farm to trade, over a diverse number of positions.
Why does every Mets fan think our payroll is $90 mil? Maybe if you add up all the contracts you get that number, but there are a lot of salaries that we’re only partially paying, such as Hampton and Renteria.
I recall reading a detailed analysis before the season that placed us around $75 mil to start the season. I also recall being enthusiastic about that total because it, along with the insurance money we’re supposedly getting for Hampton, gives us room to acquire some help…sigh. I guess JS thinks he can wait a few more months because the team is not struggling at all right now (sarcasm).
Please stop.
That’s not asking. That is telling. Enough about semantics.
OK fellas (and ladies), I’m sorry for all the arguments. This is not the place for it.
Go Braves.
Um, no. But suit yourself, believe what you want. Still should have never posted it to begin with.
smitty:
20 mill is really not all that much more. hell take off kaz and zambrano who no longer play for us and I bet it’s only like a 5 mill difference. Truth be told, the braves made no moves this summer when they could have, They held on to aging vets that are no longer the players they were, They depended to much on their young kids to step up and win, and need I forget letting their pitching coach walk out the door. This is why your team is F_ing up. There is no quick fix for your team. the time is now to rebuild if your GM has any common sense. You better hope he does not pull a steve phillips trade.
Dan
Go Braves!
At least we can agree on that, ya big lug. :o)
Summer hasn’t started yet, dude.
Cheer up folks. Here’s something to help you all feel better after today’s results.
I’m pretty nervous about this upcoming stretch of games against the AL East. Here’s to hoping we can sweep the Marilins to get a little cushion going into those games. If we can play .500 ball going into the All Star break I will be happy.
Parish, I still dont think the rotation is all that bad. And I can understand JS’s view that the back of the rotation problems are going to iron themsleves out. The 1 and 2 are studs. Thomson is giving you what you expect from a back of the rotation guy. HR (once he wakes up from his concussion) will improve and Sosa (worst case scenario) is replaceable by someone from the farm. Remember the league average for the back of the rotation is around 4 and change. If you can get that, you’re fine.
1.T Hudson 3.79
2.J Smoltz 3.73
3.J Sosa 5.58
4.J Thomson 4.84
5.H Ramirez 5.06
The problem is that heinous bullpen. Ugh. No closer, and if the starters falter, theres no one to stop the bleeding. Whats curious is that the bullpen should be the easiest thing to fix. There are alot of guys out there that can be brought in / traded for. Any rumors on the trade front? JS has to be working on a deal. Larouche can easily be traded for a quality set up man + a prospect.
PS – Yates was rubbish for us. As an ex-Met, I wish him well, but the kid does not know how to pitch. All he did was throw hard. If he missed his spots, there was no plan B. We picked him up as a high level prospect, he threw hard, got injured, came back, was downgraded to a reliever, didnt throw as hard, got injured again, was let go. I havent had a chance to see him pitch yet for you. How is he doing?
Regarding the Mets pitching staff, while it’s true that El Duque and Soler have pitched over their heads in their last couple starts. The Mets will be fine as long as they simply eat innings and give the bullpen some rest once in a while.
And brooklynlou is right in that now the Mets actually have pitching depth – Maine is back and ready to go at AAA, Pelfry will likely get his first ML start before the season’s end, and Bannister has only about two weeks left on the DL.
I don’t think the Mets are really going to add anything at the deadline, though. They really have nothing to trade: Pelfrey signed in January so he can’t be traded until next year and, now that Mets fans have gotten a taste of Milledge, there would be riots in Queens if the Mets traded him now (ala Kazmir). Sadly, that’s it for the farm system. I think they’re likely to make a run at Zito after the season, but nothing in July.
The rotation is shaky, but servicable enough. They’ve been carried this year though by their lineup and bullpen, both of which have been incredible. The really scary thing is that the lineup only looks to get better as Reyes, Wright, and Milledge get more experience (people forget, but Wright’s only 23, Reyes just turned 23 today, and Milledge is only 21). Reyes in particular, has really improved at the plate. Although he didn’t have a hit today, he walked three times (along with two steals and two runs scored) – he’s now equaled his walk total of all last year. If he gets his BA back up into the .270-.280 range, his OBP would be a servicable .340. Not bad for a 23 year old.
The Mets will be in it to the end this year. The question is what will JS do to bring the Braves back in the race.
$20M is a huge difference in salaries; you can’t just write it off saying that a couple of bad investments account for the difference. Those types of investments are what teams with lower payrolls cannot afford to make, but teams like the Mets can. The biggest advantage of having a large budget isn’t signing stars, it is having enough flexibility to recover from mistakes.
The catch about the Braves rebuilding is that they have very little material with which to start a rebuilding movement, not to mention that it’s not yet time to make that determination on this season. Their team is composed almost entirely of young pre-arbitration players and old ineffective ones. Nobody will trade for Reitsma or Jordan, obviously, and the Braves would be foolish to trade away their young upcoming players. Smoltz and Chipper Jones have 10 and 5 protection, so rule out trading either of them. Andruw Jones reaches 10 years of service time in August, so he’d have to be acted on quickly.
Andruw Jones aside, the Braves’ only realistic tradable commodities are Thomson, Renteria, Giles, Betemit, and Langerhans. Giles epitomizes the “sell low” theory – bad idea. Renteria and Betemit, on the other hand, are sell high candidates, and should be considered if any rebuilding movement takes place. Langerhans and Thomson would be attractive to any team looking for a good, cheap fourth outfielder or an average, cheap innings eater. Neither of them would bring much in return.
Raoul, I am getting pretty tired of your selfrighteous attitude. Your bootlicking attitude makes you worse than anyone here because you will never admit mistakes were made, long after the they go down in flames.
If you want to talk braves let’s talk braves but save your better than though fan attitude for people that care. Thanks
All this bickering without the involvement of Alex R. or me! Not a good sign, people.
I’ll join the list of those who feel truly awful for Chris Reitsma.
I agree with Lando.. this is a Braves blog and we should talk about the Braves and respect each other’s opinions.
Raoul’s “i’m better than you” attitude is wearing pretty thin and there is no place for that. Let’s discuss the Braves..and the Braves’ future..and stop making judgements about people that you don’t know.
Everyone here loves the Braves..for their reasons..or else they wouldn’t be following the team..or posting ideas and thoughts on this blog.
Go Braves..
flournoy
A Jones is untradeable. The man was 25% of your offense and you guys are no where near rebuilding mode. Trade Laroche for a setup man that you can flip to a closer. Move Chipper to 1st before he injures himself again, Betemit to 3rd, and the rotation will eventually start pitching up to its expected stats – you guys are back in business. If you can get to 500 by the break, you’ll contend.
Now can someone please explain to me why you guys are panicking when all the Met fans still think that you will come back (like you always do) and bite us?
It’s real hard for us that watch this team day after day. We see the moves that need to be made, it’s very obvious, I know Bobby sees it too. What makes it hard is that as a player I would love to play for Bobby. He believes in you, you want to play hard for him. As a fan it is the opposite. Our thought process and it is a justifiable one, this guy sucks and has sucked this year and last year, get him out. I watched the game today and when Reitsma came in I told my wife, who could care less about baseball, that this guy is terrible and people yell at him on the street. She said, “Why does he get to play?”. Good question. The answer is that Bobby believes in these guys, and that’s great for the players. Probably the reason this team has won so much. But, heart can only get you so far. “Rudy” had the most heart and belief of anyone, but he still sucked. I rooted real hard for the ASStroes to light Reitsma up. Just to break Bobby’s heart, that’s what it takes to get these guys out of the lineup. Another thing that’s hard for Braves fans is that our team’s business is not public domain. The AJC never, never, never has a bad thing to say about decisions made. The managerial staff never airs it’s dirty laundry. I want to know the JS thinks this bullpen sucks. Again, this is a credit to the organization, good for the players, hard for us.
Oh yeah, I’m drunk.
Brooklyn, because Bobby keeps making the same mistakes over and over again, all season long. It’s not like him and that’s why I for one am worried.
In years past..we’ve struggled to start the year..but always found a way to turn it around.
But this year..it looks even harder to do..because so many things are going wrong. On any given day..any part of our team can look really bad out there.
Either our starters can’t get out of the second inning..or our relievers can’t retire anyone. Other times our offense stinks it up with strike-outs..and double plays. And if all of the before mentioned seems to click, well, then the defense will collapse.
We have some guys in the line-up that are really struggling, and Bobby still hasn’t shaken things up. Bobby is one of the best managers in the game..and he’s done so much for this team..and for us fans…but, almost everyone here can agree that he’s making some questionable decisions.
Add to that our Gm that still hasn’t made a move..and the other teams around us that are improving or have improved themselves..it’s going to be very hard to come back.
And our schedule has been brutal aswell. But we remain hopefull..and if there’s a team that can comeback..it’s the Braves. So..let’s wait and see
Yeah, where’s Alex R.? Now there’s a guy who agrees with me.
Maybe all of this with cox and JS finally drove him over the edge.
Marcus’ 0-5 surely didn’t help…
Flournoy:
All im saying is that the 20 mill you are behind the mets in we not able to use right now. So our payroll to yours is about 5 mill. I don’t know how much of the tab you picked up from hampton, but minus that from your payroll and I bet its about a 7-8 mill difference. Still, I understand your argument and I see what your saying but that is still not the reason for the braves failure. And how do you know if chipper and smotlz don’t want to be traded? they are not getting any younger and im sure would like to end on a good note with a chance for a world series ring. If they see the braves season as a total loss would it be that hard to imagine? Plus you could get some real good prospects in return im sure of it. People are always more desperate as the season wears on and players get hurt. Your right about reitsma and Jordan, they cant be moved. But so what, keep Jordan around to mentor the kids, and reitma can be replaced……by anyone! Trade Giles, renteria,smoltz. I really cant see chipper leaving ever, plus it make more sense to keep him for the fans. He represents a winning player, a winning team, and a good roll model.
It’s times like this that I’m glad I spent much of my formative years watching the Orioles suck so I at least know what it looks like. Yikes, people. I think the past 14 years have gone so much to our heads that we’ve forgotten how to lose. Some of the discussion lately has started to resemble nyyfans.com, and that is not a good thing. We all appear to be teetering on the edge right now. This off-day should do everyone good.
If everyone doesn’t stop bitching at each other right now, I swear I’ll turn this into Star Trek fan site, because Kirk vs. Picard would be a relief after all this.
I highly doubt that either Chipper Jones or John Smoltz would accept a trade, or that the organization would try to trade them. Both of them have families, and surely do not want to uproot themselves, which can be futher evidenced by their willingness to restructure their contracts. (Yes, the restructurings both worked to the players’ advantage as well, but it did show a desire to remain in the Atlanta area, if nothing else.) The Braves also run a very loyalist organization. For better or for worse, the last thing the Braves would do is try to trade either of the restructuring “heroes.” That’s how they operate, and I’m not supporting it or blasting it, just observing.
Of course, I am not Chipper Jones, John Smoltz, nor a Braves’ executive, and I don’t pretend to know what goes through any of their heads. Maybe I’m wrong.
As far as brooklynlou’s suggestion of trading LaRoche, I’m not sure that he has much of any trade value. Who needs an .800 OPS first baseman incapable of playing elsewhere on the field? Sure, he’s cheap, so the Braves could absolutely find a taker for him, but I can’t imagine they’d get enough in return to make the move worthwhile. No team is going to part with a good major league pitcher for him – guys like LaRoche are too fungible, and no contending team has a glaring need for him. Any non-contending team certainly wouldn’t trade a valuable commodity (good relievers) for a stopgap first baseman.
If the Braves fall out of contention, which they have not quite done yet, Betemit could represent the best trading chip. Betemit is blocked behind Chipper Jones and Renteria on the left side of the infield (you can talk of switching one or more players’ positions, but forget that for a moment), and the Braves are very rich in third base and shortstop talent in the low minors.
Trade Picard!
Kirk v Picard? That’s like Jean-Luc Reitsma pitching to James Tiberius Pujols!
Simba, that was absolutely hysterical. For all of you that really want to temporarily forget about the fact that we’re 10 GB in the standings should check out the link Simba posted above.
Honestly, it comes off like you are uncertain about your faith when those of you lash out at people who are not seriously commenting about religion. Seriously, be strong, take it in stride, and don’t make something out of nothing. That is all.
Don’t know if this has been posted yet but here’s a link from Sickel’s blog on what the Braves need to do right now. Interesting stuff.
DONT STOP THE CHOP
DONT STOP THE CHOP
DONT STOP THE CHOP
DONT STOP THE CHOP
DONT STOP THE CHOP
DONT STOP THE CHOP
DOON DOON DOON DOON!!!
DOON DOON DOON DOON!!!
OOOOOOOHHHH OOOHHH OOHHHHHOOOOO,
OOHHHOOOO OOOOH , OHHHHHO
OOOOOHHHH OHHH OHHHOOOO
OOOHHOOO OOOOOH OOHHOOOO!!!!!
_
/ \
_______________/ \__
(______________/ \_)
/ \
/________\
!!!!!!!GO BRAVES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
………………………………
……………………._………..
…………………../..\………
._______________/….\__…..
(______________/……\_)…..
………………../……..\……
………………./_______\…..
………………………………
!!!!!!!GO BRAVES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
curse the text wrap- you guys get the idea
I have terrible habit of being the last to post on a dead thread.
I’ll take Picard. Make it so.
Chris Reitsma=Steve Blass. Love him by losing him. Today.
Radical positions switches in mid-season can work: Pete Rose to 3b in 1975. Before that move, it was assumed that the Big Red Machine had an automatic choke. Pete wasn’t particularly athletic; but he could play. Get Wilson in the line-up!
I know these are real people we’re talking about. And how could real people stand to watch Chris and Brian suffer as they continuously prove they can’t do the job. If a lead-off hitter is desperately needed, why continue to beat down a gamer like Giles?
After a while the players have got to wonder what that says about the team and themselves. And the fans begin to wonder if maybe they don’t have something better to do.
As Mac keeps saying, good defense begets good pitching. Furthermore, with our groundball pitchers, we must improve our infield defense if we hope to stop the free fall.
Chipper is no longer even adequate at third. Renteria is below league average at short. Re Betemit, Renteria said, “If you can play short, you can play second.” Can Renteria play second, or was he just talking about players that can actually play short?
Help!
Kirk didn’t take shit off anyone!
$20 million is a lot. Maybe you can’t use some of your players, that is because the Mets GM’s are always terrible. Our GM won in KANSAS CITY! I am not worried, he will make a move soon. The only reason we cna’t now is because most teams aren’t ready to give up on their seasons yet. We only need to be with in 6-8 games at the breat to catch you.
But go ahead Met fans and start the party. I think you will want to start resting your regulars for the playoffs.
Remember 6 to 8 games
We also can’t use some of our payrole either. Mike Hampton is still getting paid by us, I think.
mac, i will stop my hopeless negativism towards any and all. i just hope alberto doesnt wipe this upcoming series out so we can try to regain some form against the marlins.
I just hope we dont lose this next series, if so we are in trouble. Smoltz has to be masterful in this next game. We must win the first game of this next series.
And with the way Olsen and the Marlins have been playing lately I am not very hopefull as to the outcome of this series.
Any word on what we’ll do with Reitsma now. There is no way he can be on our rosterfor this next series.
Just how bad does our trade w/ Estrada look now, we should have gotten more. If not him and McCann should be splitting time behind the plate still. I think soon Pena will be replacing Pratt. We have enough veteran leadership, hence Brian Jordan.
I vote (a) we avoid being turned into a Star Trek site, and (b) agree on the one thing we know we can all agree on: that the Mets, and most of their fans, suck. I’m saying that as a former New Yorker of Brooklyn Dodger lineage. And the payroll analyses by our little friend are starting to get me riled up. Little man: once you graduate from the 7th Grade and make it all the way to the 8th grade, I’ll try to take you a bit more seriously; until then, try to be a good little boy and be silent.
Want something else to argue about other than Kirk-Picard? No I’m not throwing Janeway into the mix (geek test: busted!). Argue about Leo Mazzone.
Hey look a REAL trade rumor
http://www.timesonline.com/site/news.cfm?newsid=16771739&BRD=2305&PAG=461&dept_id=478568&rfi=6
who’s in AA that they would be interested in – Bush?
If I recall correctly, I think nobody here was too upset over the Estrada trade at the time. He wasn’t very good last year and we got young arms for him, though they appeared that they had the potential to really suck. Now that this potential has been confirmed and Estrada is OPS’ing .800+ in Arizona, I feel like Josh Byrnes ripped us off and that he maybe knew something we didn’t. I felt even worse when McCann got hurt and I was subjected to Todd Pratt/Brayan Pena for 3 weeks. But realistically, I’m not sure what could have been done differently. Catchers with mediocre defensive skills who OPS .670, as Estrada did in 2005, grow on trees. What more could we have gotten?
I just wonder why we cut ties with Cormier so quickly, but yet Reitsma is a lot worse. Every year he has given up more hits than innings pitches. He has been luvky not to have more years like this one.
innings pitched.. and also lucky….
that was a terrible post, my apologies
Isn’t Cormier starting in Richmond? I’m wondering if the Braves want him starting in Atlanta, or if they’re hoping to involve him in a trade. I too thought his demotion was abrupt, but hadn’t realized how bad he had been pitching.
Jenny,
Unfortunately, I was right about the Estrada deal (see here). I’m not trying to gloat here. I’ve been wrong about a lot of things, too.
With regards to the Estrada deal. Villareal did seem to be a decent pick-up, but one that came with question marks. Cormier I believe was just the “icing on the cake.” Some icing huh? I would’ve liked Schuerholz to have pressured for Brandon Medders, Brandon Lyon, or Valverde, but seeing how 2 out of the three have had issues, there wasn’t much difference.
Valverde for Estrada would’ve been nice, but the D’backs wouldn’t do that unless they knew Estrada was circa 2004, not 2005.
All-in-all Schuerholz made a move that he felt could add a 8th inning guy, Villareal, and a swing guy/loogy in Cormier for the back end of the bullpen. Not a great move, but one that came with some promise….which obviously hasn’t panned out. I doubt, considering Estrada’s poor year, how much more we could’ve gotten.
Looks like Big Ben better might not want to ride a motorbike
http://www.forbes.com/technology/feeds/ap/2006/06/12/ap2809733.html
At least Ron Gant wore a helmet.
Too bad Ron didn’t bicycle instead
Roethlisberger is a total idiot. I don’t know if it’s because he’s a pro athlete or he’s only 24 and thinks bad stuff happens only to other people, but riding a motorcycle without a helmet is really, really dumb. I hate the Steelers, but I hope he’s OK. Jeez.
I am going out on a limb and say the Braves will not loose tonight!
I just hope the Dawgs don’t lose tonight. Hunker down one more time!
Any one expecting a Chuck James sighting and Sosa going to the pen during this next series?
Nope. I bet a trade is still trying to be made.
Hello All,
I have been out of pocket for a few days because my wife’s ex roommate was visiting us for a few days and I needed to help be a good host and not spend all my time watching the Braves get their asses handed to them.
Anyway, first, I want to respond to being insulted on the last thread when I wasn’t even here by, of course, Raoul Duke.
You know Raoul, I tried my damndest the other day to be the bigger man by apologizing to you and the rest of the board for being so negative. I am feeling that way but I did it as an olivee branch; so why then do I have to re-read the boards and see this crap:
Raoul Duke
#181. June 11th, 2006, at 2:59 PM.
Actually, brad would be bench coach. Alex R. is really our best bet as manager. Everyone knows that…
I am not going to say anything mean or negative at you because I am going to stand by my words last week and that I won’t get into it with anyone.
But don’t you think it’s at least fair to attack someone only if they are attacking you, or at least on the Internet and in the BravesJournal site to defend themselves?
You ask people to be “classier” to Bobby and JS, two people who are never on the internet w/ any of us, the fairest thing would be to try and show your fellow Bloggers the same love you have asked to them.
As for Brad, yes, I read through and I was happy to see others stick up for you because had I not been playing host this weekend, I would have been here echo’ing your sentiments for free speech on the Braves. I guess at the end of the day I don’t see why we all can’t have our own opinions, agree or disagree, and leave the personal attacks (and religious attacks) out of this.
Regarding the religious stuff, I will say this for the 7,567th time—-we all have different religions in here–we all need to equally respect one another’s beliefs. It’s the most basic religious principle taught everywhere, respect one another. That’s the end of that.
In talking about the Braves as a whole, the reason (and I will only speak myself and not attempt to speak for Brad or Landogarner and anyone else who’s feeling really depressed about the Braves) we are all down on Cox and JS is not because they are not good guys; it’s not because they haven’t been huge reasons in our 14 straight division titles. Furthermore, I would always love the Braves if we won 150 games or 50 games…that will never change until a nurse is changing my diapers at age 88 in an old age home.
That being said, the biggest reason I am personally exasperated with Cox and JS (and many have covered this) is because there are moves and changes and decisions that could happen internally that could at least give the 2006 season some HOPE.
This is what I said to Mac on the phone the other day…I can accept losing, I can accept the Mets even winning the division…it happens…no one wins “every year” forever. That’s fine…what i can’t accept is for JS and Cox not to make the EFFORT of trying to improve the team so this team has a fighting chance.
I think it’s not unfair to say we’d all like the best possible team on the field, as much as possible. That’s not negative, we just want an opportunity to win. If we lose on the field, having tried new players, new lineups, new rotations, new relivers and we still lose, even me, mr. negative can accept that. I really and truly can.
I can look at Cox and JS and say that despite no extra budget to get some veterans, we gave some good kids a chance, made some internal moves, and did every possible thing we could to compete w/ the Mets and the Phillies and everyone else. If we lose at the end of the day, ok…I will tip my hat to the Mets for finally knocking us off and ignore the Braves-less playoffs and watch “Lost” and “Prison Break”.
What I cannot accept, I am sorry, is Chris Reitsma and his 9.11 ERA. It is just so perfect that is his ERA. I was at the gym running 8 miles yesterday after our friend left and saw us down 9-4 in the 5th, and still feeling like we “had a chance” (think Jim Carrey and “Dumb and Dumber”—‘so your saying theres a chance!’)
Then Bobby brought in Chris Reitsma.
For all the bad players this team has (Villareal, Pratt, Jordan, Thomson, etc. or players who maybe good but are playing terribly like Giles) there is one player who universally sucks every time he takes the ball: Chris Reitsma.
We have all agreed that he is a nice guy. This is not up for debate. It’s safe to say that if he left the Braves, I would personally wish him luck and hope things turn around for him because it truly makes me feel incredibly sorry for him. I can’t imagine being in that mane’s shoes.
But as much sympathy as we all may have for this hang dog, sweet, tall Canadien, he is killing the Braves and getting utterly shelacked everytime on the mound.
It takes away all our hopes, and I felt a part of me die on that treadmill yesterday when I saw Reitsma in the game. I just knew it was over and nothing could be done. As soon as the first runner reached, I almost ended my run feeling that I couldn’t watch anymore…but I stayed on that treadmill and watched him load the bases with no one out–and I still stayed (because I have loved this team since I was 5 years old and that’s what I do) only to watch Mike Lamb line a double and effectively, end the game in that moment.
A 5 run deficit in Houston didn’t feel overwhelming–I felt like maybe this could have been that June Orioles game from 2004. But then Reitsma came in.
So, this long winded point is that all any of us our asking is to see the best possible players on this team. Maybe Phil Stockman will suck. But considering how putrid Reitsma’s pitching is, (and being 10 games out) is there anything to lose in trying some new guys out? Or calling up Lil Tony? Or trying Betemit out for more then 1 game at 2nd? Again…Giles is hitting .238 and out of position at leadoff. there’s nothing to lose at this point to at least try Betemit out as a regular. Things can’t get any worse—but it might finally give us some hope that there’s a shred of this season left.
And if the Braves go down TRYING, I will stand up and clap for my boys. But when you keep putting out Laroche, Reitsma, Francouer, Villareal et all, it doesn’t feel like we are trying. And that’s the part a lot of us are having a hard time with.
one would hope that a lot of changes take place. i saw where js said that he was waiting to make a move until after the all star break. i really hope that is not the case. in years past i would say we are a 2nd half team, but in years past it hasnt looked this grim. i expect to see reitsma dfa’d, sosa to the pen, and james to the rotation this next series. also, i expect to see betemit in the lineup at least 2 of the next 3. the time for change is now. look at the bright side, if we dont make the playoffs, we wont have to complain about jordan making the playoff roster.
Well said, Alex. You missed all the fun the last few days =)
Probably old news by now, but my apologies to anyone who took my comment about Reitsma the wrong way (1st post). It was not meant to spark some huge religious debate or demean the beliefs of anyone. I’m Catholic after all. I just thought, as others did, that it was funny, but I’ll keep that humor away from this site for the benefit of the more sensitive posters.
If anything, it was a poke at the “he’s such a nice guy” argument that everyone in the Braves organization seems to abide by. They had no problem getting rid of Kolb last year, but mainly because he didn’t jell with the rest of the team. If he was a “nice guy,” would he still be pitching? Reitsma needs some AAA time to get his confidence back. He look like he’s in the middle of apologizing everytime he’s up. I agree, it’s sad to watch.
Re: The Estrada Deal.
There are a lot of things I will fault JS for but not that deal. I realize Cormier hadn’t done much and Villareal was coming off injuries, but a lot of us felt that Brian McCann needed to be the starting catcher and that we needed to dump Estrada–addition by subtraction.
I don’t have regret. I just wish the 2 relievers we got worked out better—-but this goes to what I said above…as long as JS TRIES to improve the team, I am grateful. It may not always work and that’s OK, but at least when he dealt Estrada for 2 relievers, I applauded because he was trying and it also meant Brian McCann’s time had arrived.
And we can all 100% universally agree on loving Brian McCann in here.
I give you:
IF LANDO WAS THE BRAVE’S MANAGER/GM; SCENARIO 1
1. Move Chipper to first, he’s getting older and it might help prevent some injuries. Of course this depends on if Chipper can adjust to first or not. Possibly move Betemit here if Chipper can’t adjust.
2. Put Betemit in at third or first, depending on Chipper.
3. Move Giles to the 6th spot in the batting order. It should take the pressure off him and improve his entire game. He’s not a leadoff hitter, stop trying to make him one.
4. Make Betemit the leadoff hitter.
5. Put McCann back into the 5th spot in the order. Why is our best hitter hitting in the 8th spot?
6. Keep DeathRay as closer. Or give Stockman a chance if Ray self-destructs.
7. Trade Salte and LaRoche for one of two scenarios, a decent setup man or move Sosa to setup man, promote C. James to replace Sosa and get another setup man or someone to platoon with Langerhans. I love Langerhans D but we are going to need a better bat that can
platoon/pinch hit for him. 0r promote Thorman, on fire in Richmond right now, can Thorman play outfield?
8. If Pendleton can’t get Frenchy to stop swinging at every first pitch, possibly find new batting coach. Frenchy will be a monster when he learns some discipline at the plate, and his D is spectacular but he needs to learn when to throw to the cutoff man.
9. If Betemit doesn’t work out as leadoff hitter, swap Renteria to leadoff and possibly put Giles back in his customary 2nd spot if he gets back to his old form, or insert Betemit in the 2nd spot in the lineup.
Those would be the first steps I take. I know some of you have a hardon for LaRoche, god knows why, but his streaky hitting and I swear everytime he scores runs in a game he makes some error that ends up costing us runs. His D at first is not as good as some people like to advertise.
Ok, who want’s to start a grassroots petition to get me the job? I will personally guarantee a World Series Championship this season or next.
All joking aside I am serious about this. Bobby isn’t moving fast enough. The players are pieces of an interchangeable puzzle. Move people around, see what works and what doesn’t but for the love of god don’t make the same mistakes over and over again. Why does a pitcher need to accumulate a 9+ ERA before you stop using him? And we still don’t know if Bobby is done using Reitsma!
Brad–yes, I am sorry I wasn’t here.
Mac made an excellent point…when things are this bad, people get nasty with one another.
All I can ask as someone who’s been personally attacked more then anyone, is that we all stop with personal attacks. I think it’s fair to say we are all extremely frustrated with losing and many of us just want to see Cox and JS just TRY some new things out. Just try.
I also think that of all the players who need to be off our team for good (including Villareal, Jordan & Pratt) that Reitsma is the one who should be gone, immediately–within 24 hours. And part of the reason I support an immediate unconditional release is not out of meanness–it’s so a decent guy gets a chance to pitch somewhere else.
Maybe a team that’s out of it like Tampa Bay or KC or Pittsburgh picks Chris up and he has no more pressure on him and he suddenly pitches better. I would be thrilled for the guy. It would help us but I think in all honesty, it would help Chris.
It’s an untenable situation like Mondesi last year. It’s just not working and it’s best for everyone to part ways.
The Reitsma Thing is also compounded by the fact that he’s taking a roster spot from a guy who could actually help the team (James, etc). It’s not just that he sucks, he’s costing someone a job.
Agreed, Brad. There are kids at AAA who are shining compared to Reitsma. I don’t know where he earned his tenure.
But pitching cannot be completely blamed for our lack of success. We are striking out WAY too much, veterans and Francouer alike. Pendleton needs to start drilling them.
Landogarner,
I like a lot of what you said. The problem is I don’t think Chipper will accept a move to first. He should, it makes more sense, but he won’t. Betemit maybe an average defensive player but at age 24 (or is it 23?) he at least has more range and mobility then Chipper at this point.
it’s a natural progression for a veteran.
Mac and I discussed on the phone a scenario if the Braves don’t get back into it soon, and frankly, with the Red Sox, Yankees and Blue Jays ahead, it’s looking grim–that’s not unfair. it’s not saying it’s over, it’s saying, it’s grim. That’s ALL.
In that scenario, we talked about “star” players to trade. Ideally, if they agree to waive their 10-5 no trade clause, Smoltz and Chipper because of their ages are natural. Where I diverged is I think we neeed to keep Andruw and Hudson because they are young enough to still build around as our team leaders.
Look, I want to stay in the race, but if we fall out of it, trading expensive veterans (Rentaria possibly as well) will help the Braves get back in quickly by aquiring some stud prospects and we can still build around Andruw and Hudson.
Anyway, it’s something we maye have to think about if we don’t climb back in and the odds are longer this year then they have been–it’s not a negative rant–it’s just dealing with some realism we maybe faced with if we hit July and and we are still 10+ out.
Good point Rob, I forgot to add the strikeout problem to my list.
All this talk of guys changing positions–please. Chipper’s not moving to first, mainly b/c everyone is in love with laroche and he’s not moving. Renteria’s not moving to the outfield, and smoltz isn’t going back to the bullpen. Maybe we’ll acquire some new guys, but please lay to rest all these crazy ideas of everyone switching positions.
Man, i hope big ben is okay. over at deadspin a lot of the comments are in extremely poor taste and/or taking cheap shots. i assume all these people always buckle their seatbelts and never, ever speed lest someone dance on their grave should they have the misfortune of getting into an accident.
of course, ben was foolish for not wearing a helmet, and this is the perfect example of why. from the accounts i have read, he was driving safely, following traffic laws, etc, and crashed because of the poor driving of some out-of-towner. on a bike, in a car, anywhere on the road – you wear safety equipment not because of how you drive, but of how other people do.
Dunno Alex, Chipper has made a lot of changes for the team.
I don’t think Smoltz or Chipper will leave or will want to leave. They’ve been here from the begining and they both want to retire as Braves.
Renteria is our most consistant hitter right now. I think we should hold on to him while we have him for cheap (RedSox paying most of his salary)
I think we can have a great team but the management isn’t reacting as fast as our situation warrants. Giving them more chances than they deserve, not inserting players where it makes the most sense, and not willing to shake things up a little to see what falls into place. If we can make some of the moves I mentioned I would bet things would turn around quickly for us.
Brad, who mentioned Reteria moving to outfield? Never heard that before. And my ideas are just that, ideas. I don’t expect them to happen but I felt like expressing what I would do if I were in Bobby’s/J.S.’s shoes.
Bobby is/was going to give Rietsma every chance he could to work out his problems and he should. If Rietsma is on, he is good. Don and Pete said that they think he might be tipping his pitches, I think that and a lack of confidence is his problem. He is still throwing 95.
It may be time for him to be sent down to AAA to work on his problems and build some confidence.
Bobby and John are not the problem. I am sure John is looking for a way to make his club better all the time, but he doesn’t want to morgage all of the future for a few more wins now. Teams aren’t just going to make a trade after every game just to help the Braves and John isn’t going to trade a guy like Salty strait up for Torres. He isn’t going to make a panic move and get a guy who may only help us for a shot time and leave for a top prospect. Would anyone on here send Chuck James to the Brewersfor a middle reliever? No. Just chill, we are going to be fine.
I am sure that he is looking all over for someone(s) to help the team. The right person just isn’t out there yet. He isn’t going to make a panic move that would kill our future. We won 18 games last month with this very same team.
I don’t know, heard it a few days ago.
Just makes me laugh, all this talk of everyone moving around. Like in little league, when the coach asks who wants to play 3rd or something.
Landogarner,
I agree, the lack of moves thus far is frustrating. But to play devil’s advocate for a moment, it must be hard for JS to make any of the problem spots on the team (Reitsma, Giles, possible Laroche) look desirable to other clubs when we have struggled so mightily.
Atlanta is predominantly a homegrown team and trading Chipper or Smoltz would be unforgivable. We may not be playing well, but Atlanta has integrity. That’s why I love this team. Sure, the Mets can afford to buy players when they need them (they just got rid of Matsui like it was no big deal), but what does that make them? An All-Star team, nothing more. Any manager can win with those players. It takes the fun out of the game. 90% of the Braves came up through the farm system. I really admire that about this organization.
Reitsma is getting nearly $3 million in pay this year, which is pretty high for a relief pitcher. Bobby and JS have to demonstrate that Reitsma is ineffective in every situation for a long period of time before they can dump him. Especially with a dwindling payroll, the Braves can’t afford to have “big money” fall flat without giving them a fighting chance.
The Mets didn’t ‘add payroll’ with Matsui, they took a struggling player and moved him, getting a guy back and saving money.
I’m jealous.
Land,
Mac has actually talked to me about his thought for Rentaria moving to the outfield.
While I don’t deny that Edgar has been one of our best 2 hitters (along with McCann), he’s been horrific defensively and has hurt the team a lot at SS.
That’s why the Lil’ tony thing has come up. Lil’ Tony can’t hit much, but maybe we could at least turn the Rentaria/Pena combo into the next generation Blauser/Belliard where Lil’ Tony comes in late to help proect one of those rare “leads” people talk about.
Who said anything about making a panic move? Take the time to make a good move, I don’t care. But just do it.
And yes Bobby is part of the problem. How many games did we lose because of Rietsma? You don’t wait until a guy has 9+ ERA before deciding he has problems. You send him down to Richmond and let him work out his problems where they dont hurt our team. I heard that crap about Reitsma tipping his pitches a week ago when they were watching videos to help him correct his problems. And what happened? He came out last night and gave up how many runs? The guy is finished, his confidence is shot. How “good” can someones stuff be if they give up runs so easily? I don’t buy that crap.
I was hoping for Ray to get a chance as closer over a month ago. Thank god that finally happened. Whatever happens he can’t do a worse job than Reitsma.
And what’s with the Bobby/J.S. bootlickers? I love them and the Braves just as much as the next guy but that doesn’t mean they don’t make mistakes or cause problems for the team. They are human! Get over it.
If anyone’s infield defense should be questioned, it’s Chipper’s. I may have missed it, but I havent seen Renteria make any game-killing plays.
Chipper, on the other hand, has.
Rob, I agree. I am not one for making big trades when we would have to pay more than we get. That’s why I think we need to give some guys from Richmond a chance and move some guys around that are already on the team.
For those who don’t agree just take a moment to think about one thing:
How can it get any worse? What can it hurt to move things around at this point? We should have done it before it got to this point but now that we are here, how is it going to hurt us any worse?
Does Reitsma have options left? Or does he have enough tenure where he can’t be sent down without his permission? I’m not sure how that works.
If anyone with a 9+ ERA refuses to go work out his problems in tripple A it’s time to release him.
He should be out of options – players with three full years of major league experience have to pass through waivers, and he’s got 5 years (although I think he was up and down a few times with the Reds during his first year or so).
I think we all agree on here that whatever we are doing is completely not working, and some changes, at least internally need to be made.
I also agree that we don’t have to start making 100 trades. I think universally, all we are ALL asking (and we have different ideas, and that’s OK) is that Bobby and JS do some things different.
Land made a great list earlier and I had made a list like that–I have seen other make lists. What was intresting is that everyon’e list don’t require spending more $. It’s simply a plea from all of us Bravos fans that we make some internal changes, starting with the unconditional release (for his own sanity and for ours) of Chris Reitsma.
Yes, there are others like Villareal, Pratt and Jordan who need their walking papers and other internal moves…but again, in the end we all agree that we cannot sit pat with this current roster and the same lineup and same pitching roles being trotted out there, night after night, to simply get killed.
Oh, and for what’s it worth, if he’s willing to go down to AAA, I doubt anyone would claim him right now. Maybe that’s why Bobby has been throwing him back out there, to scare other teams off of him.
I don’t understand why Bobby would care if someone else took him. I maybe missing something but every year he’s been in the Major Leagues, he’s given up more hits then innings pitched.
Plus, a lot of people are openly talking about the fact that he’s tipping his pitches.
Again, send him to Richmond…my goodness, if the Yankees or Kansas City (whomever) want him, more power to them…take him.
Just reiterating what Alex said, at least most of us agree changes need to be made.
I believe we have one of two options.
1- Start looking to next year and dump some high salaries so we have room for growth for next year.
2- Make a possibly high-impact trade. I would suggest trading Giles (I think his career stats still give him pretty good trade value), LaRoche and Langerhans (both have some trade value, but admittedly not much). After this we platoon Thorman and Jurries at first, play Betemit everyday at 2nd and pick up an above average outfielder (hopefully a good leadoff man) and releiver in the deal. We can also afford to lose Thomson if this will sweeten the deal. James needs to be starting this week!
My vote is for number 2.
This next week should be interesting to say the least. Hopefully James has an impressive debut as a starter and Sosa proves more effective in the bullpen. Though I like him, I’m all for trading Giles for a guy who can leadoff properly.
I’ts not Giles fault he was forced into the leadoff role. He is not a leadoff hitter and will never be one. If we put him in the 6th spot you would see his average go back over .300 and his defense would improve with it. I think all the pressure on him to be a leadoff hitter is impacting his play at 2nd.