I’ve been mentally pre-drafting some player analysis, hoping to write some entries over the Christmas break, though I probably won’t publish any until January. I can’t yet start one for Adam LaRoche, though, because we don’t know what his role will be. He might continue as a platoon first baseman with a new partner (either Jurries or Thorman from the farm, or a veteran brought in). Or he might be handed the job full time, or more or less full time. (He might be traded or benched, but I don’t really expect that.)
There are some interesting parallels between LaRoche and one of his Braves predecessors, Ryan Klesko. Both are from Orange County, for one thing. Both are listed at 6-3, though Klesko is much bulkier. Both were pitchers as well as hitters as amateurs. Both are slow, or rather LaRoche is slow and Klesko takes so long to get going that, even though he runs well then, he’s effectively slow. And both came up and were platooned, even though their minor league records didn’t show that they particularly needed to.
Now the thing about the platoon differential is that it’s real, and it’s almost universal. Very few players don’t have a platoon split, and it’s generally a little heavier for lefties than for righties. Klesko has a very large split. He’s been a devastating hitter against righthanded pitching (.292/.385/.548 for his career) but hits like Eddie Perez against lefties (.238/.324/.370/).
The thing is (and I can’t prove this without more splits than I can conveniently retrieve) that Ryan is a much better hitter against righthanders when he plays every day, even though he still sucks against lefties and doesn’t get any better. His first two years in San Diego (before they moved to that awful park) were his best seasons (by adjusted OPS+) since 1995 even though he was playing more against lefties and still couldn’t hit them, because he made up for it by slamming righthanders even more than usual. The Padres could do this, because they were a poor team, both in the senses of “not very good” and “low payroll”. The Braves could never do that, because they were always in contention and couldn’t afford to put a first baseman who hit like that in the middle of the lineup, and because they always had other options.
So now we have Adam LaRoche. LaRoche isn’t nearly as good of a hitter as Klesko, plus he’s not nearly as good of an athlete. LaRoche has hit .273/.328/.481 in his career against righthanded pitching. But in limited work against lefties (68 AB in 62 G), he’s hit .206/.299/.338. That might come up if he played more regularly, especially since the bulk of those AB are against lefthanded relievers who make their living getting lefties out. But the real trick will be if playing everyday makes his work against righthanders improve. Let’s say it bumps him up to a .300 hitter — .300/.345/.508. Then is he helping the team? Depends upon how much you give back against lefties.
The problem is that LaRoche isn’t as good of a hitter as Klesko. Like I said above, the platoon differential is almost universal. It’s just that the really good hitters are good enough that they can hit 30 points lower against one type of pitcher and it doesn’t matter. A “platoon player” is often just a guy who isn’t quite good enough to play every day, but you don’t have any really good players for that position. He can’t afford to put up a .700 OPS against lefties because the heights on the other side aren’t high enough.
We may see.

*The problem is that LaRoche isn’t as good of a hitter as Klesko*
Bingo! Klesko was a .900-.1000 OPS type of guy against righties. LaRoche only seems to be a .800 OPS type of guy.
Klesko definitely deserved a chance to not platoon. LaRoche? Probably not as much.
LaRoche was born in Orange County, but I am pretty sure that he grew up in nowhere Kansas. A friend of mine went to high school with him (and was on the baseball team after him) in Fort Scott Kansas. LaRoche is a country boy.
Well, Dave was with the Angels Adam’s first couple of years on the Earth, then with the Yankees for three, then he retired.
Who would you rather have playing defense at 1st – Klesko or LaRoche? My money would be on LaRoche. We havent had the chance to see LaRoche have the everyday position and its certainly hard to speculate what kind of numbers he might put up for the team.
But is it really that hard? I’m pretty confortable specualting that it wouldn’t be all that great.
And I like all these guys but I don’t know about having three spots in the lineup between Francoeur (at this stage), Johnson, Langerhans and LaRoche… am I wrong? The shift Larry/play Marte route obviously didn’t take, but I’d like to think there will be someone more solid in one of those spots. And if I had to choose whom to replace, it would definitely be LaRoche. But that’s just me.
We can certainly do better than LaRoche. But I don’t go crazy about him, the way some folks do. If we could bat him lower in the order, I’d prefer that. He’s not horrible, but overall I wouldn’t consider him good either.
That said, he’s not the reason the ’04 & ’05 seasons ended the ways they did. (For those who don’t remember, our pitching sucked.) Fact is, his post-season numbers (all 8 games and 25 at-bats) remain outstanding. I appreciate guys who play well in the big games–and LaRoche has done that.
I was looking at JC’s PrOPS projections, and by them I can’t see why you’d hit LaRoche ahead of anyone but the pitcher, assuming Renteria hits second. The front four seem settled:
Giles
Renteria
Chipper
Andruw
The thing is that of the next group, McCann, Francoeur, and either KJ or Langerhans, all should be better than LaRoche if form holds. He’ll probably hit fifth or sixth, but really he’s the weak link.
If LaRoche is the weak link, then it’s a pretty good lineup. I would still like to see an upgrade at either 1B or LF though.
Let’s just hope he can go on a season long hit streak like he did for the last 10 games of last season!!
I’m not worried about LF. There are 3 OF for two slots, and each has his own unique upside. 1B is a problem, though. A big one. That’s the thing about that Renteria trade. SS was never the problem. Instead of plugging holes, the Braves leave them be and start fixing things that aren’t nearly as pressing. (At least they tried to fix the end of the bullpen; there have been no reports of them even attempting to fix 1B. If Marte ends up playing 1B for the Sox next year, I will cry.)
Great, I ‘upgrade’ to Firefox 1.5 and it starts crashing on me every 20 minutes for no reason whatsoever. Anyways, I had a long, drawn out post about Klesko analyzing his splits back to 1994. It’s gone…
But I’ll try and sum it up – Klesko started playing full-time against lefties in 1996. He was, in a word, horrible against them – a low 600 OPS in 136 ABs. Soon after the platoon started up again, though Klesko did get 100+ ABs against lefties in 1997 – and his OPS was again in the 600s. He didn’t get many ABs against lefties afterwards, and in 1999, his .342 OPS in 49 lefty ABs may have led to him being…expendable.
In San Diego, he’s been substantially better, but still not good. He’s had two 800+ OPS years against lefties, two 700s, and two years, uh, below the bar. It seems that it would still be the right move to platoon Klesko, though who knows? He’s such an up-and-down player thanks to his numerous injuries, it’s difficult to come to any conclusion.
As for LaRoche, my plan is to trade him, move Chipper to first, and start Marte at 3rd. But apparently that’s not going to happen. I haven’t been enough impressed with Adam to think he should be playing everyday. So…I’ll say stick with the platoon as long as it’s, say, Frank Thomas and not Brian Jordan (or Dave Gallagher).
(As a side, Mac, you can enter in years manually in the player’s url and get splits way, way back. I could go all the back to 1994 with Klesko – a nice hidden feature).
I think its real hard to speculate on what type of numbers LaRoche will put up this year. This could be the 1st year that he knows the position is finally his.
Look at the 1st two seasons for these guys:
Andruw Jones
1996 .217
1997 .231
Marcus Giles
2001 .262
2002 .230
Adam LaRoche
2004 .278
2005 .259
I’m not saying that LaRoche is going to put up better numbers than these two guys this year, but I’ll take .280 and 25 HR’s from a pretty good defensive 1st baseman. If thats the numbers he puts up then we’ll be in great shape. If not, well then…
On my Mac at home, Firefox 1.5 fixes a hella lot of bugs (like that annoying scrollbar refresh behaviour), and it changes the keyboard shortcut for “next tab”.
On my PC at work, I have noticed zero differences.
I haven’t had any problems with Firefox 1.5 that I can recall… You using ESPN.com stats?
csg, were Andruw or Marcus platooning? That’s the big knock on LaRoche’s numbers. If his numbers included full-time work against lefties, he could be an average 1B next year and maybe even better in the future. However, his numbers are skewed, so he’s not even as good as the averages you produce.
JoeyT, I wasnt trying to say that LaRoche is going to put up better numbers. I’m just trying to point out that we’ve only seen a sample size, just like in the case w/ Marcus and Andruw. Its just hard to speculate on what LaRoche is capable of – Have we seen the best of LaRoche? maybe or maybe not.
Andruw was only 19. That’s not really similar at all. And wasn’t Marcus injured that second year?
I still don’t really see your point.
Andruw Jones was extremely young that year. And Marcus Giles had limited ABs in 2001 and had an absolutely nightmarish 2002 personally with the ankle injury, his daughter’s death, and the bouncing around between the minors and majors. I don’t give much credence to his 2002 data, and I think Andruw’s data also has too many extraneous variables.
I also have a dim view of batting average in general.
A dim view of batting average? What do you mean?
Yahoo! stats have platoon splits back to 1987, fwiw.
Last year, the average NL 1B hit .280/.359/.478. If we could get that from Jurries + LaRoche, we would be very fortunate – average first basemen normally cost ~$6m (think Sean Casey). I don’t think that’s a realistic expectation, unfortunately.
my point – if LaRoche can put up .280 w/ 25 HR’s will be in good shape, but is this something he’s capable of – we havent seen him as an everyday player…..
Can we stop mentioning Frank Thomas coming to the Braves? He hasn’t been healthy in a few years and is a horrible defender at 1b when he is healthy. Lets wait to see how Laroche does full time (if he does that this season) before trying to say we should get someone else. Because we could have much, much worse there. Say JT Snow, all glove no bat. And yes I know he had a few bright spots, but I think Laroche will do just fine.
Kyle S, I don’t think that’s unreasonable on the LaRoche side of the platoon. Now if we could rotate him with some young corner infield prospect with tons of potential …
How bout Klesko in LF instead of 1B.
giles
renteria
chipper
andruw
klesko
laroche
francoure
mccann
What I mean is, I think there are better indicators of offensive talent than batting average and I don’t think it actually means all that much.
Klesko is dreadful in the outfield. Yes, he’s got a big bat, but he’s got a Juan Pierre like arm and he runs about as fast as LaRoche. Langerhans is still a better choice..
Joey, I think what Jenny’s saying about batting average is the traditional stathead view that BA doesn’t say much about a player offensively. Saying that a guy hits .270 really doesn’t tell you anything, because he could be anyone from Adam LaRoche to Carlos Delgado.
Batting average doesn’t mean much? The thing is, Jenny, I’m not sure what those better indicators are. I’m sure some day JC will write an article telling us what data has heavy weights in his PrAVE, and that could get us started, but for now the best way I know to predict the future ability to get hits is look at the past hit rate.
True, batting average isn’t all that stable, certainly not as predictable as something like walks, but hits are extremely valuable, more valuable than walks, and well worth considering.
i would count on 270/340/470 from adam platooned, which is about 8 runs worse over 600 PA. not awful, but near replacement level as far as 1b go.
or from Adam LaRoche to Andruw Jones
Joey, what do you mean that “the best way to predict the future ability to get hits is to look at the past hit rate”?
I agree with you that batting average is unstable. But if it’s unstable, how can it be a good predictor?
CSG, I would be so happy if they’d put Langerhans at first and trade Adam LaRoche. Maybe we can even find a taker, considering the Reds got rid of Sean Casey…
I didn’t say it was good. I just said it was the best.
Also, you misquoted. It was “the best I know”.
JC, for example, probably knows a better way.
Sorry, I didn’t mean to misquote. Now I see what you mean. Anyway, just a quibble.
AAR
Why would we put Langy at first?
And its not a matter of finding a taker (at worst hes a solid defender and decent platoon guy/PH whos making the league minimum) but getting any value from him.
kyle,
How is an 810 OPS from ANY position near replacement level? It might be below average from 1b but its hardly replacement level
Yeah I dont think I would want Langerhans at 1st. I was saying he’s better than Klesko at playing LF. LaRoche could surprise us next year, but then again maybe he might not……
Sorry, I should have mentioned I was using ESPN player splits. You can go to, say, ESPN’s 2003 splits – then enter ‘1995’ in the url instead of ‘2003’ and you’ll get 1995 splits. Yahoo! only goes back to 2001 for yearly splits, and isn’t as detailed as ESPN.
As for Firefox 1.5, I’m suspecting it’s one of the extensions I downloaded. I’m deleting them one by one until I figure out the culprit. As long as Ad-Block and Mouse Gestures still work, I’m happy. I do still have problems with a few sites (NickJr comes to mind), but all in all there’s no way I switch back to IE.
As for Frank Thomas, yeah, his feet and defense are a problem. But even with his issues, he absolutely murders LHP. I’d take a shot at a Reggie Sanders or Thomas rather than bring the corpse of Brian Jordan back…which the Braves are rumored to be doing…
I just wish I knew what to think of LaRoche. Somedays I think he’ll be just fine, other days I want him nowhere near the roster.
NMS – that 810 OPS assumes all PA against RHP. Mix in some PA against LHP and the OPS drops. History tells us that there are plenty of players in AAA that can’t field a lick but could hit to the tune of a high 700s OPS.
Here are some examples of players that are more or less freely available to the Braves whose projected OPS would be between 770 and 830:
Andy Abad
James Jurries
Earl Snyder
Mitch Jones
Pedro Swann
Kevin Barker
Mike Kinkade
Adam Riggs
Andy Tracy
Kevin Witt
Mike Coolbaugh
Val Pascucci
Graham Koonce
Most of those guys have absolutely zero upside and I don’t think we should get any of them, but that is what “replacement level” looks like for 1B. Old, AAA vets who can put up 850-900 OPS in the IL or 900-950 OPS in the PCL.
Yes, but Jurries was on steroids. As we all know, that doubles your OPS at all levels.
Yes, but Jurries was on steroids. As we all know, that doubles your OPS at all levels.
True.
Speaking of which, this link is hilarious.
JoeyT, I am interested to know why you say that the Braves didn’t have a problem at SS, so they should have filled the problem at 1b, I assume that you would have rather seen WB at short? That would have been a huge mistake, and what would have happened if they were half way through the season and Wilson was stinking the joint up, and then you have to trade for a veteran SS, so you end up giving up 2 or 3 prospects in the process. I think some of you should really forget about Wilson Betemit as a fulltime shortstop. That ship sailed away a long time ago.
I always wondered where that ten percent came from.
I’m with Jenny on batting average, for the most part. It’s best seen as a component of OBP and SLG, which between them describe most everything important that happens offensively. And since BA varies less than secondary average (nobody hits below .200, at least not for very long, and nobody hits .400, or even above .380, while secondary average varies from .100 or below to .500 or above) it’s the other stuff that defines the best players.
Sorry, off subject again. I wasted an hour of my life looking at the remaining free agents, hoping to find a scrap heap closer candidate. Armas, Mantei, Graves, Dreifort, etc. I clicked on Julian Tavares, and he has rejected a 3 year offer from the Mets, holding out for FOUR! (I still miss you, Alex.) If Julian Tavares can extort an four year contract, let’s just throw the kids and Reitsma out there and hope for the best.
I prefer OBP and SLG to batting average. That’s not to say I find batting average totally useless (I think a pitcher’s won-loss record is probably the most useless stat of all, and RBIs are close, since neither one has much to do with the individual player and a lot to do with the team they’re on) but batting average can be misleading and too often it’s taken as gospel truth of a player’s offensive value. You can’t get the complete picture with a BA/HR/RBI line, which is why it drives me nuts when people try to compare players this way.
Reitsma? Best? Hmmm.
I’m with you on RBIs and Win-Loss, Jenny. I was ticked by every article I read by a retarded sportswriter (Verducci included) who was SHOCKED that Burnett was receiving the attention he was when he’s a … LOSING PITCHER! It’s one thing to be down on the guy because of his injury history, but sportswriters always brought up the (meaningless) record.
RBIs and pitching wins are good for one thing: Fantasy Baseball.
ububba, not nit-picking, or anything, but if you list all the pitchers on the 40 man roster with more than one save in their career, excluding Smoltz, you have Reitsma and a guy facing arm re-attachment surgery.
Also, I know I’m old, but hits and wins mean something. Burnett can do many things well, but give me someone who comes off the mound with a W, over someone whose other stats look good. Along the same line, vilifying a relief pitcher for failing to get the same 27th out the starter couldn’t get is odd to me as well.
Also, I know I’m old, but hits and wins mean something.
Yeah — they mean you were lucky enough to get some run support and lucky enough to have your bullpen slam the door.
All I’m saying is that Reitsma ain’t gonna be our closer. That’s another ship that’s sailed.
Grogan, I disagree with you about pitching wins. I just don’t think pitchers don’t try as hard with big leads or in lost causes, which is what would have to happen for a pitcher’s stats to be worse than his record. I tend to think major league pitchers are professionals who give their best effort every game.
I’m with you on hits, though. People seem to undervalue them just because they’re a bit less predictable than walks. Unless the bases are loaded, a walk’s not going to send a runner home.
Mac makes a point about it being a component of other, more respected stats, but I don’t think that gives quite enough importance to the hit as a singular event. With a runner on third, a hit is way more valuable than a walk, though OBP counts them the same, and a single is just as good as a double, though SLG counts the double, well, double. (I also think OPS undervalues getting on base, too.)
Tanto, thanks for the insight. You take the AJ’s and I’ll take the Jamie Moyers. You put Albert ‘Joey’ Belle in the HOF, and I’ll trade him to the nearest dumbass.
Joey T is right about that — the hit does have value in itself (batting average is most important in “RBI situations” even though “RBI hitters” are usually power guys). And also right that OPS undervalues getting on base. It’s just a simple stat, but a guy with a .400 OBP and a .450 SLG is far more valuable than a guy with a .350 OBP and a .500 SLG, even though the latter guy might get paid more. On base times slugging is better, but harder to calculate.
In addition, I’m suspicious of any all in one stat, because players aren’t all measured on a single axis. No matter how accurate it is, there are important differences between “equal” players that we shouldn’t ignore.
An illustration… Let’s say we have two guys with radically different skills but who have similar OBP and SLG. One’s a Tony Gwynn type, who hits for a high average but without a lot of walks and with only midrange power, so in an ordinary year he’ll hit .350/.400/.450. The other doesn’t hit for nearly the average but walks a lot and has above-average power, so he hits .285/.400/.450. (Let’s assume their other data are similar, though the first player would probably strike out less.)
Now, obviously you’d prefer the first player in almost any situation with a runner on second or third, because a single scores a run. (The only exception might be first and third, one out, where the double play is a factor and you might want the fly ball. Maybe.) But you’d prefer the other player if there was a runner at first, because he’s far more likely to get an extra-base hit, and with the bases empty, because he’s more likely to hit a home run or get into scoring position on his own.
If anybody wants to see a video of Peter Gammons and his rock band playing music that he wrote, click here and it’s the video at the top. It’s just kind of funny to watch.
And my new pet peeve: the word “guesstimate.”
And someone on the IOC has just come out and said that not letting Cuba into the WBC will seriously hurt our chances of ever being able to host an Olympics.
Nice going.
Stats Schmats. What’s important is that Braden Pooper signed with the Cardinals today and therefore cannot sign with the Braves. I’m sending a thank-you note to Walt Jockety.
The Solution to the Braves problems: Salty to platoon with Laroche at first. Big Bat, a lotta potential, lets try him out. As for leftfield, Nomar Garciaparra is a perfect fit. Yes I know you may say, he has never played left field before, he has had a couple bad years. I know both of these responses are correct. But, just because a guy has two bad years doesn’ t mean he’s going to have three. He’s a natural hitter, he has a beautiful stroke and this guy is an athlete. He didn’t win batting titles in the American League for hitting like a little leaguer. I think it would be quite nice to have his bat in the middle of andruw and frenchy. His defense? He use to be one of the best at shortstop, he’s had nothing but time to heal his injuries, he’s ready to be the athlete he was born to be. Bullpen wize? We bring back Rudy Seanez, do all we can to keep reitsma off the staff, and trade for a guy along the lines of Danyz Baez to set up. Yes I said to set up. This guy has great stuff and plenty of potential. We give the d-rays Brayan Pena and Frank Brooks, we get a guy that I predict, will be a top of the line pitcher this yr as our set up. We get down to the big question, Closer. From what I saw last year, Joey Devine had incredible stuff. I was actually surprised at what I saw. He’s a college pitcher that basically goes from college to the major leagues. His stuff was great, he just needs to work on his control, and get another out pitch. He’s got an extremely bright future ahead of him, and I think if he can be the Devine we saw after his second call up, he can be the Devine that has 40 some saves. But if Devine doesn’t work, which that will soon be found out in spring training, Baez has proven to be dependable enough to take over the job. If my plan of Nomar doesn’t work, why not Juan Encarnacion, this guy is solid and if he could play regularly, he’d be 25 plus homers a year and at least 90-100 RBI’s he’s a great option. As for the bullpen I think Terry Mullholland would provide an excellent arm and veteran presence, he’d be a great option. Care to agree or disagree, it doesn’t matter to me, I know my idea would work.
Danys Baez for Pena and Frank Brooks? Who do you have as the GM of Tampa, Cookie Monster? Braden freaking Looper just got 4 plus million a year. You think Baez is going to go for Brooks and Pena? This is the team that wanted McCann of Lugo.
*McCann for Lugo
Boston has offered Seanez a contract already, and I guarantee you if we get into a bidding war with the Red Sox, we will lose.
just so you know, today was the one week anniversy of black thursday (the loss of Julio Franco) How is everybody taking it? I have moved from denial and anger to bargining myself.
My guess is that Julio loses his magical powers the moment he puts on his Mets uni.
I predict Julio will quickly become unhappy as a Met. He is now backing up Delgado so he wont get any starts unless Delgado gets hurt, or MAYBE in interleague games as DH. Julio also isnt a defensive genius, so he wont see any late inning defensive innings. He clearly also wont be used to pinch run. That means Julio will play a TON less than if he stayed w/ the Braves, and he may get bored just getting 1 at bat every 3 games.
Also, i think that little activity for his old bones may set in a strong case of arthritis.
It’s 2:35 in the morning, today is(will be?) my birthday, but I just wanted to say this before I go to sleep: Juan Encarnacion sucks. KJ or Langerhans will out hit and out field him from now till the end of their careers.
If anyone else suggests him as some kind of option for the Braves at any position, ever, he/she should slap him/herself until he/she becomes a Mets fan. ‘Cause really that’s what you’re looking like, because only a Mets fan would want Juan Encarnacion on the Braves.
Juan Encarnacion sucks. Oh, and so does judging a pitcher by his W/L record.
Happy birthday latnam. Did anyone bring up the idea of Encarnacion? I can’t recall any. Otherwise, my reaction will be the same as yours.
Jenny, if you missed Rudy’s last adventure with the Braves, I will tell you this: Rudy is a very good pitcher when he is healthy. The problem is that he could never stay healthy. Rudy always has a great habit of getting hurt at around August and September. The chance that he will get hurt this coming season is so great that I don’t even want the Braves to think about signing him.
Mitch, I strongly disagree that Nomar in left field is a good idea. Chipper Jones learned the hard way as a career infielder that moving to the outfield puts a lot of strain on your hamstrings. Nomar’s had a lot of injury trouble; moving him to the outfield won’t alleviate it. Moving him to 3rd base or 1st base would, but we’ve got a logjam at both positions.
Well, too late. The Braves are making an offer to Rudy…
http://www.ajc.com/braves/content/sports/braves/1205/16seanez.html
Speking of LaRoche, I snagged this fom AJC.com:
“The Braves have interest in veteran first baseman/outfielder Jeff Conine, who batted .304 with 20 doubles, three homers and 33 RBIs in 335 at-bats last season for Florida. However, agent Michael Watkins already has received on offer from Baltimore, where Conine might get more playing time. The Braves are waiting to see how some other situations work out before deciding whether to make an offer.”
What gets my interest about this jewel is not the possible arrival of Conine (which I think would be ridiculous….I say give 1st to LaRoche full time or bring up Scott Thorman to platoon)…no, the interesting part is that ‘the Braves are waiting to see how some other situations work out’….so what could that be, I wonder? A trade of LaRoche???
On the Marte “injury” front (from the Boston Herald):
I don’t think BPro was the first to report this, but the point is the reports were bogus from the beginning. Who’s responsible for the leak? It could be the Braves (trying to save face) or the Red Sox (trying to deter other interested teams). However, the fact that the rumor broke after the deal went down and the Sox immediately denied it is troubling. I guess a team that missed out on Marte like Tampa could be spreading it, but they complained that they were never offered Marte for Lugo in the first place.
Scott Thorman (2000 Draft, 1st Round) was in 40 roster during the season. I’ve always wonderd who the player is. Is he given a full scope for his ability? But he’s also lefty.
Who’s responsible for the leak?
That was me. I was just messing around.
Depending on the money (always) I wouldn’t hate Conine. He seems to be aging gracefully, he outhit LaRoche last year, and doesn’t have much of a platoon split. His OBP has been going up, not down, and his slg, although depressed by the park, is still respectable, and should improve somewhere else. For 1M or so, I’d say okay.
Latnam, Happy B’day. I guess its a lucky day because its my birthday as well. How about that!
I think it’s inaccurate to say that wins-losses or batting average, for example, have no value. It’s certainly true that wins for a pitcher oftend depend on run support and a lot of other factors and that it’s often a misleading stat–despite what the brilliant analyst Joe Morgan things. But, to say it means nothing is going to far, at least in terms of careers. Are you going to say that Clemens and Maddux were just lucky and we should pay no attention to their win totals? BA and wins are like any other statistic–they have to be looked at in context. For example, I have certainly seen pitchers that pitch just well enough to lose–and Burnett may be one of them. That’s not to say you ignore his peripherals, but it’s not totally unreasonable to wonder why a guy with his stuff doesn’t have more wins playing with a decent team. Is it all just bad luck?
We haven’t had a random Boston update from Jenny, in almost 12 hours, I am so dissapointed.
Agreed. Single-season wins and losses aren’t to be trusted, but career W/L is a pretty good indicator of how good a pitcher is (as long as you have several years worth of data).
Simply saying “Jon Garland has more wins than Johan Santana, so he’s better” is silly, though.
Back to Laroche. Check this link: Sorted RBI Totals
Laroche is 13th on this list. Check out the names in front and also the AB’s to compare. I say let him hit against lefties and maybe he can break 100 rbi. He had 48 AB’s against lefties last year. KJ had that many AB’s before he got a hit.
career W/L is a pretty good indicator of how good a pitcher is (as long as you have several years worth of data).
But Kyle, if you have several years worth of data, isn’t that a strong prima facia case that somebody is a pretty good pitcher before even looking at any stats? We’re talking about comparative value here – would you rather have Sutton or Blyleven?
Laroche is 13th on this list
And how much of that is a function of Furcal/Giles/Jones/Jones getting on base a ton in front of him? Is it not possible that the three guys below him would have had quite a few more RBI, given their superior hitting, in the same spot? Is it not just possible that Laroche’s 2005 RBI total not exactly indicitative of anything? Check out this guy’s ’99 stats – people thought that gaudy RBI total made him good too.
http://baseball-reference.com/o/ordonre01.shtml
I don’t know if 60 rbi in 520 Ab’s is gaudy. My argument is about value. Compare Konerko at 12 million per year. Podsednik at .351 obp and Iguchi .342 obp hitting in front of him. Is 22 more RBI and .80 points in slugging worth an extra $11,500,000? Also Laroche hit 45 rbi the year before with only 324 ab’s. If he gets an additional 125 at bats the math would suggest 99 rbi’s. There is no need to trade Laroche. He also hits lower in the lineup than Konerko.
second bass: the “other situations” the arcticle mentioned probably refers to the Braves’ search for a closer and how much that will cost us, not a trade at 1B.
At least it better refer to finding a closer…say what you want about LaRoche; him at 1B, even with the uncertainty of full time play, worries me less than Reitsma at closer.
sutton/blyleven is closer for me than it may be for you. i agree that his “average” start was slightly worse than blyleven’s. however, he was a better teammate than bert was. i think the difference between the two is closer than you do, and i have no problem with how both of them ended up relative to the hof. although i would be happy for bert if he was elected.
I would take Bert, just because his name sounds better.
I don’t know if 60 rbi in 520 Ab’s is gaudy. My argument is about value. Compare Konerko at 12 million per year. Podsednik at .351 obp and Iguchi .342 obp hitting in front of him. Is 22 more RBI and .80 points in slugging worth an extra $11,500,000?
I agree that one shouldn’t overpay for a small rise in production. We differ on how to measure productivity though. LaRoche’s RBI total doesn’t accurately measure his productivity as a hitter. After Rey-O got that 60 RBI season, the Mets deluded themselves into thinking that they could keep his glove in the lineup without having too much of an offensive hit. The results were less than optimal. This was fairly predictable given his OPS+ and other rate stats were still atrocious. LaRoche actually regressed as a hitter last year, but that HR/RBI total will allow those that will let themselves be convinced that he is a servicable offensive player. Paying a bit more for someone with better rate stats would be well warranted.
sutton/blyleven is closer for me than it may be for you.
But that’s my point – how can they be so close when Sutton has so many more wins? Perhaps because wins don’t really have much comparitive value?
i guess i didn’t articulate my post very well. do i think that jon garland is a great pitcher because he won a lot of games this year? i do not. do i think that one or two years of w/l data will tell a lot about a player? i do not.
however, over the course of one’s career, w/l record is a pretty decent record of one’s performance, imho. in particular, it may (not does) tell us more than just park adjusted era does. as people have posted on primer recently, blyleven’s w/l record is mediocre for several reasons. the ‘stathead tendency’ exemplified by dayn perry is to chalk up the difference between blyleven’s actual record and his pythag record with better run support to bad luck. but as mike emeigh has looked at, given his actual run support, blyleven lost a lot more games than would have been expected! so while he might have won a few more games (and lost a few less) with a better offense behind him, he gave back a bunch of those wins by pitching just well enough to lose far too often.
so color me at least somewhat skeptical about aj burnett. i haven’t looked into his situation much, and it is very possible that he has had lots of bad luck (like clemens this year). but that isn’t certain by any means!
Do you know what the braves should do?
They should trade Laroche for a relief pitcher and then sign Palmeiro for two or three year until we have a better first baseman on the minors. 😀
What do you guys think?
“Simply saying “Jon Garland has more wins than Johan Santana, so he’s better” is silly, though.”
Totally agree and it drives me crazy when Joe Morgan says things like that.
As far as comparing Blyleven and Sutton, I don’t think the comparison works. They both have a lot of wins (324 and,I think 287) so I don’t think the difference is great enough that you can really say that Sutton was a better pitcher just because he won more games. But if Sutton was at 324 and Blyleven was at, say, 160, I think that would be a reasonable conclusion. Over the course of a career, a good pitcher should win a lot of games. Again, it obviously doesn’t work over a given season because of all the extraneous factors involved in winning games. I’m just saying that you shouldn’t simply dismiss wins-losses as a criteria for pitchers.