34 thoughts on “That explains it”

  1. That’s nice. I’m impressed… seriously. But he’s already “earned” his pay this year thanks to guaranteed contracts. Maybe someone could convince him that his time would be just as valuable to this project as his money? There has to be a job in the organization for him. Hell, he could even come down to the clubhouse anytime he wants and tell the kids that they just need to be more “aggressive” (provided they agree to ignore it).

    I was thinking how nice it would be to get Jay Payton in his place. A guy who’s still mobile, can play anywhere in the OF and can hit lefties reasonably well (.293/.344/.483). For what it’s worth, Gammons says he’s available but Atlanta doesn’t care. I guess he’s available because he’s griping about being a platoon player though.

  2. It would be nice to get Jay Payton. How has that guy bounced around so much? Like you said, he can run, he can play defense, and he sports a .284/.334/.444 career line. He might not be Carlos Beltran, but he’s actually pretty close to Andruw’s career line.

  3. How has that guy bounced around so much?


    …and he sports a .284/.334/.444 career line


    Take away his year+ in Coors and he entered this year as a .273 / .321 / .409 hitter.

  4. And, for what it’s worth, he attended Georgia Tech. But doesn’t he whiff an awful lot? I recall him making many U-turns when he was with the Mets.

  5. No it wouldn’t. You missed one important number.
    3.75 mil. The Gammons article says that the Red Sox have figured out that they can get 4th OF production out of a guy making the minimum. Duh. The Braves won’t touch him with a 10 foot pole.

  6. Duh, the Red Sox got $2.75M in the deal that brought them Jay Payton. So it’s not unreasonable to assume that they could help with the salary (they would have to in almost any deal for him, I’d think). Duh, the Braves have a hole with right-handed hitting bench guys who can play OF (the name of said hole is Briand Jordan). Duh, he’s a whole lot better than Jordan, which was the entire basis for the idea.

  7. I don’t normally get overly interested in correcting misstatements (I make many myself), but since it was asserted with such childish “authority”, here is the entire Payton/Braves content of the article:

    “Jay Payton has asked to be traded, and Boston is trying to oblige him; curiously, the Braves had no interest.”

  8. ‘Boston is trying to oblige him; curiously the Braves had no interest. The Red Sox think that 25-year-old minor league free agent Chip Ambres might be able to fill the role of fourth outfielder.’
    I interpreted as take Jay and the pro rated portion of his 3.75 mil cause we can get the same production from ole Chip who’ll be making 1/10 the money he is making. But I defer to you since you obviously have some insite into the workings of the Red Sox organization.
    Payton can be had for a box of sanitary socks but you’d have to take the remainder of the contract. But of course I’m just guessing.

  9. Fiar enough. I was put off and didn’t read it clearly enough. No excuses for me being both snarky and wrong though.

    Anyway, I’m not so sure that the Braves can do a lot better from within. I don’t think it’s an aboslute necessary because Langerhans and Johnson look pretty good against lefties, but I suspect that the main reason Jordan is still around is that he hits from the right side… although not very well anymore. So I’d be up for just about anything that both didn’t cost much and got Jordan gone.

    And of course I don’t have any insight into working with anyone’s organization. It was a guess too. But it would make sense that if they did give up money they would likely be looking for help in making some other trade. And since I suspect they’re looking for the same pitching that I hope Atlanta is, it wouldn’t make sense to help them get it just for a fourth OF.

  10. Sorry for the heavy sarcasm. But if Payton were so obtainable then he’d be in Atlanta on tomorrow night’s first flight because he is a significant upgrade on ole BJ.

  11. That’s ok, Johnny. I deserved it after getting all pissy. Like I said, it was really just a “would be nice” thing anyway. And it would be. Maybe Betemit will get a few twirls in the OF when/if Larry comes back. That would be even better assuming he can do it.

  12. I’m actually ok with the outfield situation. Putting Jordan in there is like putting Tony Womack out in RF but I do not want the team to start looking for a ‘veteran’ hitter until KJ and Langerhans prove that they just cannot play at this level. I sure would like to hear some rumors that we are looking for a RELIEF pitcher or 2 though. Being a glass is half full guy I’m pretty sure (ok a glass is 85% full) that Thomson, Hampton and Huddy come back ok. With Sosa looking to do the DeRosa to Ramirez shoot we might get a bullpen lefty out of that deal.

  13. It would probably be more healthy for me if I loosened up on my anti-Jordan fixation anyway. I think I got bored hating relievers, but that’s probably a better expenditure of my anger… especially after yesterday. And you’ve got a good point there that maybe it’s for the best since at least he isn’t eating into their time like a vet could.

  14. Dayton Moore on Jeff Francouer
    “You hear talk about him needing to be more patient at the plate, but we want him to stay aggressive. His aggressiveness is why he is going to be a special player. He will get more comfortable with the strike zone as he goes along.”

    this season: .264 .319 .462

    You think that this is probably what they were telling Andruw too?

  15. creynolds, I also like the sound of Sosa moving in the rotation and Ramirez moving out into the pen once our rotation is completely healthy. Ramirez is getting exposed right now, and I think his repaired shoulder is hindering his movement. He should be much better after another full offseason of conditioning.

    Kyle Davies is helping Sosa too. He’s only had one STELLAR start, a couple of five-inning or so good starts, and a couple of bad starts. He’s going to be a GREAT pitcher, but he simply has to work through his control and appraoch problems because of youth.

    Without Sosa, we would all be in a different place with respect to our team. Frankly, he’s the biggest reason (maybe the lineup resurgence) we’ve won 4 of 7 on the road and are building confidence.

  16. Wow, for a while there I thought it was just the CReynolds & JTindal show. Raoul busted up the monotony though.
    Thought I’d link to some memorabilia that could be quite valuable – especially given the near universal fondness we all feel for these players (Alex, I’m thinking especially of you here ;-)


    For more of all kinds of Braves memorabilia (including some cool Hank Aaron & Dale Murphy stuff), here’s a link to all kinds of whole mish-mash:

    I think I’m gonna buy the picture of Sid’s Slide…

  17. I’ve heard Jordan and others say that he’s a slow starter. Is there any truth to this? I’m sure some of you stats guys out there could answer this. If Jordan can hit .280 or .290 in the 2nd half and hit 10-15 homers, is this acceptable? I know that some think BJ’s skills have deteriorated, but I’d be interested to see what his 2nd half has looked like over the last several years. His knees at least have seemed to hold up fairly well.

    I’m not a Jordan fan, but isn’t this about the production that we’re looking for in a “value-priced” outfielder. I would love to see us get a true quality outfielder, but I don’t see us doing this and staying at the self-imposed $80 mil salary cap. If Cox has truly bought into the “slow starter” excuse, I wouldn’t be surprised if he decides to keep the status quo.

  18. Jordan is, of course, the best judge of his own talents and capabilities, and so it’s no surprise to find that he is correct in his assertion that he is indeed a slow starter:

    Pre All-Star (2002-2005)

    610 PA .270/.340/.437

    What he forgot to mention, or what might have been left out of the quote, is that he’s an even slower finisher:

    Post All-Star (2002-2004)

    381 PA .279/.319/.425

    The lesson is clear: Doubt Jordan’s abilities to your heart’s content, but doubt his words at your peril!

  19. I like the sarcasm there. My only question with this is did the knee injury play a part in this? If so, maybe it would be better to go back a few more years. Actually, if I thought he could hit .279 over the 2nd half, I at least wouldn’t cringe when he came up to bat with RISP.

  20. All he needs to do is hit left-handed pitching and play reasonable defense. I’d hate to see him get enough plate appearances to hit 10-15 homers since that would mean either Johnson or Langerhans not playing, but I’d sure quit griping if he could hit .280 or so against LHP with something resembling his past OBP and SLG. But I don’t think there’s any reason to buy into the slow starter thing. Even if you go back to 2002 (when he had a .907 OPS against LHP), he was worse in the second half. Not enough to say he really finished slow, but he didn’t stat slow. I don’t have the LHP/RHP splits, but here’s the overall:

    Pre All-Star .275 .334 .500
    Post All-Star .297 .343 .426

    He was probably hurt sometime during that second half because he only got 32 ABs in August. But he’s been hurt every year except that one before Atlanta gave him a big contract, so I think that’s a reasonable thing to factor in for this guy.

  21. I love it when the Braves dismiss any concerns about plate discipline and on base percentage. Because we all know about all the great hitters the Braves have produced since 1991.

  22. Marc, are you being sarcastic? I can think of plenty of good hitters that have come up through our farm system since then; Chipper, Javy, Klesko, Giles, Andruw, and Jermaine Dye are the ones that come to mind first, and I’m forgetting lots of others I’m sure.

  23. I can think of plenty of good hitters that have come up through our farm system since then; Chipper, Javy, Klesko, Giles, Andruw, and Jermaine Dye are the ones that come to mind first …

    Jermaine Dye? He has a lifetime 103 OPS+ from a corner outfielder. He had a good year or three, but a good hitter, he aint.

    More damning is that of that entire list only Marcus Giles is a product of the Schuerholz years with all the others either drafted or signed as amatuer free agents while Bobby Cox was the GM. There has been a dearth of top flight offensive talent coming into the system for over a decade.

  24. I just don’t know why you would not want a hitter like Francouer to be more patient. I can understand not wanting to get a guy totally off his game, but what’s the harm in stressing a little plate discipline. Contrary to Jordanian beliefs (the Brian, not the country) it seems perfectly plausible that one can actually be “aggressive” and still be able to tell the difference between a ball you can hit well and one you cannot. And if Buck Showalter is right that there are only about 11 pitchers in the AL that actually get people out with strikes on a regular basis, and you assume the NL isn’t all that different, isn’t that all it’s really about anyway?

  25. Hey Mac (or someone who can answer),

    Longtime listener, first time caller. this is the wrong place to post this, I know, but the EMAIL US link ain’t workin.

    Ever think of posting an open thread during the game, for each game? Sometimes its hard to find the live posters on the site. I think it would be a nice service to those of us watching the game while simultaneously surfing the Internet. In addition, it might make for a good read afterwards, esp. if you missed the game.

    just a suggestion – love the site. living in new york its hard to get braves info. reading the papers and listening to the a$$holes in the bars around here you would think that the sports world stretches from as far East as Shea Stadium to as far West as Giants Stadium.

    thanks –

  26. dean – he used to do that last season, although I don’t think we’ve had any game threads this season. Mostly I remember them being used in instances where he wouldn’t be able to post a recap after the game. I’m not sure how necessary they are, anyway – generally the top thread on a page will get some posts during a game. Of course, a game-specific thread would probably get more posts.

    okay, Jermaine isn’t the caliber of those other guys, but he’s been a decent hitter for several years and was an excellent fielder before he got hurt. he also put up gaudy RBI totals :)

  27. If people think it’s a good idea, I can start a game thread before every game. There’s one on the BravesBeat Blog so I didn’t want to infringe.

    You can contact me at warliberal (-at-) yahoo (-dot-) com, which is listed on the sidebar. Sorry you have to edit it but the spam spiders pick it up otherwise. The full site is still beta in many ways and the email link will be fixed.

  28. The JS era has not produced a stunning draft yet. How much of can be laid at JS’ feet..I have no idea.
    I think his strength as a GM is not rushing into mindless trades, and having a very good marketing dept and deep if not stunning farm system, which hypes prospects enough for them to get good value when traded.
    Think about it. JS has traded 7-8 premium pitching prospects over the past 3 yrs. How many amounted to anything? How many have a chance to do anything apart from Wainwright?

  29. Marquis’s been pretty decent. Odalis has been okay. Bubba Nelson is starting to get it figured out. And Wainwright, as you mentioned, is looking solid. Merkin Valdez is a little older since he was sent to the Giants in the Ortiz deal, but he could be special. And let us not forget Daniel Meyer so easily.

    As for a stunning draft…the draft is a crapshoot, especially when you consistently get your first pick at the bottom of the first round. That said, the 2002 draft started with Jeff Francouer and was followed with Meyer and Brian McCann. Chuck James was picked in the 20th round. All four have bright futures. 2003 yielded one of the most impressive stockpiling of pitching ever. Atilano, Jo Jo Reyes, Paul Bacot, Jake Stevens, Matt Harrison, Chris Vines, and Kyle Bakkar. The latter has reitred, Reyes is hurt, and Bacot has had some personal troubles but Stevens, Harrison, and Atilano look good and Jarrod Saltalamacchia and Steven Doetsch may have some decent years. The jury is still out on 2001, but Macay McBride is still around, Josh Burrus is getting it figured out, Adam Stern could be a solid utility player (albeit, not here), Kyle Davies is with the big league club, Matt Esquivel and Billy McCarthy have solid futures, and Anthony Lerew goes largely unnoticed. Can’t forget 2000…Wainwright, Thorman, Kelly Johnson…that’s a solid front three. Bubba Nelson, Blaine Boyer, Trey Hodges, and Adam LaRoche also came from that draft.

    A stunning draft is subjective, but 1993 did produce three All-Stars in Millwood, Dye, and Rocker, though none of them are the players they once were. 1996 produced Marquis, DeRosa, and Giles. I think JS and Co. have gotten a little better by getting rid of the outrageous “ohh, he’s got tools, let’s draft him!” strategy that wasted a number two on Andre King, a number two on George Lombard, and a number four on Cory Aldridge.

  30. I think that the 2000 draft might prove to be a stunner: Wainwright with their first pick, Scott Thormann and Kelly Johnson also in the first round, Bubba Nelson, Blaine Boyer, Zach Miner in the next few rounds. And Trey Hodges, Charles Thomas, and Adam LaRoche in the later rounds.

  31. Stern may be back. He has 10 days of rehab left. Not that something couldn’t go wrong (or iffy) there, but it looks like Boston will be facing a decision on him pretty soon. I don’t know what their 40-man looks like these days, but he’s on the 60-day DL so getting him to the majors could be problematic in several ways.

    Nobody mentions Schmidt?

  32. True, way out of the 3 year time frame put up in the post. But still a JS draftee who made good.

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