I’m rooting against the Giants because Posey was out.
I’m rooting for the Royals because if they win the World Series, there is no chance that Dayton Moore gets hired away.
I’m rooting against the Giants because Posey was out.
I’m rooting for the Royals because if they win the World Series, there is no chance that Dayton Moore gets hired away.
And Buster Posey IS out.
Why people don’t like Dayton? I am not sure I am getting it.
People don’t want to give him credit for the things he has done well. It did take him a while, but he cobbled together a team that excels at things that are undervalued by the market and also fit within a $92 million payroll. He assembled a bunch of fly-ball pitchers in front of an outstanding outfield defense. Practically the whole team plays great defense, for that matter. His bullpen dramatically shortens the game, and for relatively cheap.
I like that he was willing to take the plunge, re: Myers-Odorizzi/Shields-Davis. Now that they’ve made this run, maybe more revenue means they can bump up the payroll and retain/replace Shields.
He took a fuck of a long time to do what he did, and what he did was sneak into the playoffs with 89 wins. If you hate Wren’s signings, you will hate Dayton’s more, because he doesn’t even bother to pick guys who are talented to begin with. And Dayton also has no idea how to trade. His version of the Upton trade would have involved sending Teheran and Simmons.
Basically, there is nothing to like about Dayton Moore. He’s been one of the worst GMs in baseball since he started.
@4 – Amen. The guy was universally reviled for literally his entire GM career until his team snuck into a wild card spot this year in a horrible division. He’s built a great farm system…with a decade’s worth of high draft picks because his major league team has been so bad. His team has been successful in the playoffs for the same reason every successful playoff team has been – pure dumb luck.
I’m jealous of the Royals’ success this year too.
Also, Bumgarner’s pretty good.
3 & 4 – basically sums it up. Also, he employs Ned Yost as the manager. Yep, 9 years and one wild card spot doesn’t get me excited. There are challenges in KC but it shouldn’t have taken 9 years to get where they are now. It’s also probably not sustainable or that group. Everything fell into place for them this season.
You all keep citing Dayton Moore’s reputation like reputations are always grounded in fact. All I can say is, 89 wins is 10 better than us — and three teams in the AL Central finished with a better record than us, so I wouldn’t go criticizing their division.
I keep getting told, it doesn’t matter how you get in. I also can’t say I think they deserved to win 89, but part of being a GM of a team with a limited payroll is fielding a team that actually can win if they catch a bunch of breaks. That’s useful to have in Atlanta.
I wouldn’t expect people here to view Royals players as talented — though many of them clearly are — because we nitpick at dWAR and are really only loyal to OPS, for some reason (This doesn’t apply to you, @4).
On trades…I’m listening, but need to be persuaded. As much as people are making of the Shields trade, it looks to me like the Greinke deal was as important/successful. Of course, the Jonathan Sanchez/Melky deal was terrible, but we can’t fault him for getting rid of Melky… DeJesus to the As wasn’t pretty, either.
All this is to say, Dayton Moore isn’t Andrew Friedman, but perhaps he’s not as bad as people think. If Coppolella won’t be ready for another year or two, maybe letting Dayton do his farm thing temporarily wouldn’t be so bad.
Moore stuck with guys like Yuniesky Betancourt, Brayan Pena, and Luke Hochevar for years and years — no-hopers who torpedoed any chance at a decent record for so long that they’ve been able to cycle through two batches of high draft picks before finally hitting upon a combination that managed to reach the playoffs in Year Nine. People who are kicking the tires on him now would have had a seizure watching the typical Moore assemblage for a week and a half.
I was going to say something about giving way too much credit to Dayton Moore for a very short period of moderate success, but saw @4 & 5 had it covered already. I mean, this is a guy who, after both the Braves and LOLMets had given up on him, looked at Frenchy and said “Mmm, let me get some of that.”
Moore’s transaction history, ’06-early ’13. Judge for yourself…
http://www.royalsreview.com/dayton-moore-transaction-history/2012/9/25/3409748/dayton-moore-trade-history
In the comments section:
Pathetic! What of Moore’s transactions could you say that the Royals made a steal? Bannister with his 6.00 ERA for Burgoiux? Or Davies for Dotel? Bentancourt? The only one that I would give the Royals the edge was getting Callaspo for Buckner. But that was negated with the O’Sullivan “The Homer Maker” for Callaspo! Moore sucks! What the hell is he going to get for Guillan, the rights to Barry Bonds? All teams just line up and wait for the Royals to ask for a trade. The other GMs are pissing in their pants from laughing after they abuse Moore!
I’m extremely intrigued as to what “the rights to Barry Bonds” entails in this context. Is that something I want as fan? Does it mean we can have Barry-Bonds-in-a-Braves-jersey bobblehead night?
I wouldn’t hire him for the reasons noted above. However, he has had bad owners most of the time in KC. No free agents ever want to go there (they may be a knock on Moore though.)
Seems obvious to me that the braves are waiting for Dayton Moore. He is their 1st pick. What else explains the delay? It’s
fair to say that Moore is a loser on the trade front, I’d rather go the Copollela route. I doubt he walks from KC after this WS year, but maybe he must be considering…
He’s in the World Series and we’re talking about how bad he is. He’s universally reviled for the Shields/Meyers trade, which so far is looking pretty good for him. His record of picking up non-talented gap-fillers is also in question, but does it really matter if you play Francouer on a really bad team? I don’t think the roster-filler matters much until your team is ready to compete for the division. While you wait around for things to bloom, maybe it’s ok to use cheap crap fill ins.
I don’t want him either, but it’s probably time to dial back the narrative about how bad he is. I, for one, really really hope we can be as bad as KC in the next few years…
Billy Beane has never been to a World Series, and I would take him over Moore.
If it’s all about getting lucky then there’s no point in even talking about it. We all want it to be about being the smartest guys in the room, but if that’s not the reality then what can you really do? I want to think that Sabean and Bochy have an edge on the field, and that’s why they are in the WS every other year.
I don’t think Fredi gives us any kind of advantage at all. Not sure if he hurts us much, but I don’t think he’s helping either. If you swap Fredi and Bochy are we better next year?
Bochy is better than Fredi. So yes.
Dan O’Dowd took the Rockies to the World Series, too. I don’t want him either.
BJ Upton, Mike Minor, Chris Johnson, and Jordan Walden for Edwin Jackson and Luis Valbuena. Who hangs up?
19: I think you’d have to drop Johnson (or pay his salary) for the Cubs to take that.
You have a pretty big man crush on Luis Valbuena who has had exactly one good year.
Cubs hang up first. No way they are taking BJ and Johnson’s contract for that.
I prefer a straight up BJ-Jackson trade with the Braves equalizing the total cost of the contracts. I don’t think BJ will ever recover to be the player he was in Atlanta. Maybe a change of scenery and attitude will help him. Jackson still seems to have a healthy arm. Maybe he can turn it around.
I’m not sure why the Cubs would want to make this trade. It didn’t make sense to me when first reported, but if they will, then do it. The sooner the better.
I hope that the Braves simply waive BJ Upton.
I know I am assuming that the Braves have the will to absorb MORE sunk costs but if we are reloading to compete next year losing one of our 3 remaining starters and our setup man is too much.
I agree. Minor’s a good pitcher. I don’t want to sell low on him just to facilitate a salary dump.
I do not envision us flat-out waiving BJ with Uggla still on the books. That would not happen until 2016, at the earliest.
@16 Getting to the playoffs is not luck because it takes winning over long season. Getting to the WS largely is luck in that it takes winning over a very small sample.
Maybe they give the new hitting coach a chance to fix BJ. I doubt it though.
@26, I would argue that the Royals were lucky to make it to the postseason. That offense stinks.
Their team is similar to ours, but better. (Better than the 2014 Braves, probably not as good as the 2013 Braves.) Very young but mediocre offense that doesn’t hit many homers or walk much, pretty good young pitching staff, good defense, good bullpen.
@21
@johnny
Valbuena has had 3 good seasons with the Cubs, aided by superb defense in a part time role 2 years, and average defense, a normal BABIP, and superb offense the 3rd year. It is true that I have a mancrush on Valbuena, and it’s for good reason. His defensive flexibility, left-handed bat, and line drive % make him an ideal platoon partner for Phil Gosselin.
Also, Walden is the sweetener to that deal that offsets Chris Johnson’s contract (just like Minor is the sweetener for BJ), which isn’t that bad in the first place. The Cubs have the flexibility to take on payroll.
@the fantasy trade above…
I don’t think the Cubs would do it, either. In fact, I don’t see them wanting BJ Upton at all. However, if the Braves were to make it happen, they’d be taking on about 14MM in salary and subtracting 29 million, a net gain of 15 million. After arb-eligibles and pre-arb guys, the Braves would have between 72-75 million committed to 20-22 players with holes in CF and 2 starting pitchers. A retread pitcher, a frontline starter, a backup catcher and a CF could all be had for 35 million (if the Braves keep the 110 million dollar payroll).
Adding to that, if the Braves trade Justin, it becomes really wide open. It’s going to be a fun offseason, and hopefully when April rolls around, the Braves are Upton-less with a new, competitive team built around Simmons, Heyward, Freeman, Gattis, and Peraza, and a re-stocked farm system,
*My students are working on projects…and I’m bored.
@28 Might well be true. For accuracy I should have said that luck is less of a factor, but with a borderline team it might play more of a role than usual even in the regular season.
@29
Of course they strikeout about half what the Braves do.
@30:
“(H)opefully when April rolls around, the Braves are Upton-less with a new competitive team built around Simmons, Heyward, Freeman, Gattis, and Peraza, and a re-stocked farm system.”
Dear Mr. Cothran,
I love you.
With all my baseball heart,
Coop
Teheran, Wood, Peraza, and Sims for Yost, Big Game James, and a water cooler we can write the phrase “hitting coach” on–who hangs up?
Get it done, [general manager of the Atlanta National League team].
Gregor Blanco just hit a leadoff homer in the World Series, and our starting center fielder is B.J. Upton.
Sigh.
Posey was out, but I like how he plays balls in the dirt.
The very fact that Jeff Francoeur earned over $15 million dollars playing for the Royals and was signed to not 1 but 2 contracts under Dayton Moore’s leadership should automatically disqualify Moore from ever being a part of the Braves organization again.
@36 I believe we fell into the “Andruw trap” in what to expect from a CF. I would be perfectly happy with Blanco manning our CF with Justin and Heyward on his sides. The Braves just want too much out of the CF position and Wren paid a premium on something that is not a necessity.
@38 I think Yost and Frenchy are enough for me to say no to Moore. Thanks guys, I have been hit by a flu so my head isn’t exactly very clear.
We’ve had a perfect CF on the team for years, but we keep playing him in RF for no good reason.
First Blanco, then Infante. Is there no end to the indignity?
@41 We all know Jason is a great CF, my only question is whether he can survive there the whole season.
I think it’s fair to give Dayton credit for putting a team together with skills that a manager like Yost would get the most out of. It’s kind of like Sam’s thing; most managers aren’t significantly different from each other and are going to get in their own way, if perhaps not to Yost’s extreme. Did we not just spend the whole season watching Fredi pretend this team can execute a bunt?
The thing I can’t get away from is that the Royals are too good at the things they are so very good at for it to be an accident. This Royals team isn’t going to walk or hit homers anyway, so in a way, Yost kind of fits, and it could be that that was how Dayton planned it.
I obviously can’t excuse Francoeur for $15 mil. It does make you worry about what Dayton would do with more money. I can only hope that he’s learned something about roster construction under financial constraints over the past couple seasons…maybe he’s a late bloomer.
Although I will point out that Francoeur did produce more WAR for the Royals in 2011 than Gattis did for the Braves this season. (Not that the decimals points matter so much…you could say they were on par with each other.)
OK, looks like we’ve got a Series now.
re: Francoeur
Moore only offered him that contract because the other GM’s told him Frenchy was deaf.
@41, 43
One great catch doesn’t make a guy a center fielder. I’m not convinced we know anything one way or another.
I mean, let’s keep the option on the table depending on how things shake out over the winter, because he might be a good center fielder, but that’s too important a position defensively to make a decision on unless we’re sure or we don’t have any other options.
If any of you are Bill James subscribers and haven’t read his “Rotation Emperors” piece yet, you’ve just got to as soon as you can. It’s marvelous.
@49
Truly. Not to mention Braves-dominated.
@48 I’m in the move Heyward to CF camp because I think that it will be easier to obtain a guy that can hit a little for RF than finding a guy that can field CF and not be a black hole offensively. If that reduces Heyward’s WAR, so be it. Its better for the team. I think Heyward will be just as good a CF as Upton defensively if not better.
With the team needing two starting pitchers, a hitter in the outfield and possibly a second baseman, maximizing what you have is important.
Note that I didn’t list 3b as a need. It is, but lets face it getting 2 pitchers and an outfielder is enough of a challenge. The team has to hope that Johnson hits to his career averages, where at least he is in positive WAR territory.
Id trade Upton this offseason and then try to extend Heyward. If he accepts a deal then move him to CF. If we can’t then trade him also.
My point with Heyward is I don’t think the Braves ought to just think: “Plan A: Heyward plays center. No problem.” While a corner outfielder or corner platoon is a more likely find for us, I want us to keep our eyes wide open for all options. If there’s an (unlikely) opportunity for us to nab a real center fielder somehow we have to take it.
The team does not need a second baseman the way we need an outfielder and a third baseman. Somewhere between Gosselin/La Stella/Peraza there’s a major league player.
Chris Johnson needs to go try to float on some other team’s hopes and prayers.
@50
Out of 40-some emperors we had…7? Spahn, Burdette, Knucksie, not sure if those were Gay Perry’s Atlanta years, Smoltz, and then Glavine and Maddux twice each.
What do you think of his statement at the end about the current state of starting pitcher health?
A friend of mine (not Hispanic) swears the Braves have a problem with Latin players.
Could that possibly be true?
I am in complete agreement that we should trade Justin. I’m also in agreement that we should trade Heyward if he won’t accept a long-term deal. Please Jason, accept an offer. We need you.
@55
No. 25% of their 40-man last year was Latin, and 28% of their roster was foreign. These numbers are almost directly in line with MLB numbers. The Braves have strong ties to players from the south. That’s about it.
Teheran, Simmons, Pena, Bethancourt, Avilan. I don’t think its true.
This is about the most uninspiring group yet since I’ve been keeping track of the Winter Leagues.
http://mlb.mlb.com/milb/stats/org.jsp?id=atl
@58
Why does list Randall Delgado on the Braves page in that link?
Also: Very weird that Salcedo has 4 stolen base attempts so far.
From Rosenthal:
Sources: Hart says “yes” to #Braves, will be named president of baseball operations.
Does that mean not GM? Isn’t Schuerholz the president? Probably just showing my ignorance.
@59 Just an internal error and probably not removed from last year.
Not sure what this means, but John Hart is now President of Baseball Operations for the Braves according to Rosenthal. Does that mean he has full authority to hire the new GM?
Dang, the Braves are starting to sound like a bank where everyone is a vice president. President of the Braves, President of Baseball Operations. What is McGuirk’s title? CEO?
Hart is talking about “rehabilitating” BJ’s skills. That means they can’t move him and won’t cut him.
@55, I think it’s more that the Braves have problems with flashy players. Many Latin players — it’s not just a stereotype — play with flair, because the style of baseball in Latin America is a less buttoned-down than it is here. There are fewer unwritten rules about not showing up the other team. The Braves would have run Yasiel Puig out of town for the shenanigans he displayed last year, but it’s not so much that he’s a jerk as that he just grew up where the baseball norms are different.
The “Braves way,” exemplified by Brian McCann becoming a meme last year, is to stick your head down and be as boring as possible. They can butt heads with players who don’t approach the game that way.
@63, or it means that they’re not going to prematurely torpedo what little value he still has, and are outwardly pretending that they believe that he can still play baseball.
@64
See, the weird thing about that is McCann did the opposite of keeping his head down. He literally made himself as obtrusive as possible within the context of a baseball game. It was not boring at all.
I think the “keep your head down” thing is not an accurate characterization of the “Braves way” then or now. It could more accurately be called, “Don’t start showing us up, you jackass.”
That was the team with Freddie campaigning for hugs and Reed Johnson jumping around like a little kid in the outfield behind Heyward’s catch and Medlen twitching and dancing in the bullpen before his starts and between innings. It was not a put-your-head-down sort of team.
Just because the guys this year were a little on the boring side doesn’t make it a thing.
Just got this in an email in case anyone is interested:
Atlanta Braves president John Schuerholz announced today that, effective immediately, John Hart has been named as President, Baseball Operations.
Hart has agreed to terms on a three-year contract that will run through December 31, 2017, and will carry the Braves through their first season in SunTrust Park, which is slated to be ready for the 2017 season opener.
Watch the press conference at 12:30 p.m. ET today (Thursday, October 23) live on braves.com.
@64 – See Escobar, Yunel.
‘or it means that they’re not going to prematurely torpedo what little value he still has, and are outwardly pretending that they believe that he can still play baseball.’ – you sir, are a glass is half full guy.
@63 – Its not hard to believe that he is untradeable. Dammit, JUST CUT HIM! Good Lord, two FULL SEASONS of suck isn’t enough proof that he is done?
@54
It’s interesting — the fact that starters are now almost never needed out of the bullpen plays into the phenomenon, I think. Pitcher routine is more fetishized now, and the universally employed 7-man bullpens helps keep the starter routines intact. I don’t know about the injuries — a better way to count them would be to just count them.
@65, yeah, that’s a better way of saying it.
@64, I’m sure teams are lining up to trade for a guy that we’re going to teach how to play baseball in the offseason.
Apologies for sounding so defeated, but I really thought we were just going to release him. Having to watch him play CF in 2015 is going to be more than I can take.
What if it’s like Million Dollar Arm 2: The BJ Upton Story, and he cobbles together a famous, if barely adequate, minor league pitching career?
I absolutely think that converting him into a pitcher is something that we should consider. I think we should consider absolutely anything other than giving away one of our good players to obtain salary relief.
If they’re planning to both trade Justin and release BJ, they should do so in that order. I never thought, as some seemed to think, that they’d have to worry about Justin’s reaction if BJ were benched or traded. But releasing him might be a different matter. If there’s any chance that doing so would sour Justin on the Braves organization, that might adversely affect his trade value. Best to shop him first, then deal with BJ (if that is indeed the plan).
I think I’m going to predict the Braves will not be able to trade BJ and they will not be able to make themselves swallow the bitter pill of releasing him. Instead BJ will become the highest paid 25th man on the bench, brought in only for pinch running situations. This will be the plan for 2015. In 2016, when Uggla is off the books the Braves will finally release BJ and eat his remaining salary.
I bet Hart signs him to an extension.
The AJC on the Hart hire.
It’s pretty much the best case scenario folks here wanted. John Hart will be head of baseball ops while Coppolella runs the GM duties and reports to Hart for Hart’s 3-year tenure. This is step one in a groom-Coppy process. Expect him to be announced as GM soon.
What do those who want to trade him expect to get in return for Justin Upton in a trade? Just asking, because I think if we trade him we are out of contention for 2015. And beyond unless MLB ready talent is part of the return.
If the Braves think that they can rehabilitate BJ Upton then that is the true definition of insanity.
@74
I have looked it over time and time again and I think you’re right. However, I think they’l start him the first month of the year before the benching occurs.
Hart during press conference: “…we want to be known as a tough club”. Also said the word “grit” a few times.
Peanut put up a post about Braves potentially trading one of Heyward or JUpton this offseason and moving Gattis to left-field. If that’s so, Gattis needs to lose about 15-20 pounds.
The Braves stream on the MLB app is running a “the Braves could rebuild by trading Justin and/or Jason” bit as one of their four featured stories. That suggests strongly to me that they are shopping pretty much everyone they can, to see what they can get.
Kevin McAlpin just said FO hires are done and Hart will take on the majority of GM duties with “Coppy” as his right hand man.
If they trade JUpton for prospects:
that would would mean
OF
Gattis Someone Heyward
IF
Johnson Simmons LaStella/someone Freeman
C
Bethancourt
Back to 3 big holes in the offense and on top of that Gattis isn’t the hitter that JUpton is.
We don’t compete.
@77
Yeah, I asked the same thing in a thread a couple days ago. What does a legitimate major-league return for Justin Upton look like? What does a legitimate minor-league return for him look like?
I look at the Mariners, Red Sox, Yankers, Rays, Giants, Tigers, Reds, A’s and Indians as trade partners.
The top of my head tells me that of those teams the Red Sox have major league pieces we want.
And they probably all have minor league guys that we want.
@81
There is no way we run Chris Johnson out there against right-handed pitching in 2015. Maybe not against any pitching.
Then that means we have to add 3b to the long list of stuff we need to fix this off season. I’m not saying its a good thing, but I think the Braves give him another chance. He has only sucked ass for one season with the Braves as opposed to two, I’m looking at you BJ Upton!
I’m also less sanguine that most of y’all on 2B. Sure Peraza looks good but he hasn’t played much above high A ball. I want to like LaStella but once the league figured him out he couldn’t seem to counter the adjustments. And Phil, one good season in the minors Gosselin? Please.
David O’Brien @DOBrienAJC · 4m 4 minutes ago
What #Braves are basically doing is grooming Coppy to take over as GM in a few years, without coming right out and saying it.
David O’Brien @DOBrienAJC · 6m 6 minutes ago
#Braves won’t change Coppolella job title, have no plans to hire a GM. Coppy will have some duties of normal GM as Hart’s right-hand man.
@76, I wanted a GM from outside the organization and instead they’re promoting two people from within. But Hart only started with the team a year ago, so he has a bit more outside perspective. Given that the Braves weren’t remotely interested in conducting a search — I still can’t figure out why they absolutely refuse to conduct a search whenever they have a job opening, but that’s their MO — this is probably the best-case scenario.
I’ve asked this before, but why is it so unheard of for a guy to retire mid-contract? Imagine being a proud baseball player with a history of success and having a net worth of $40 mil or so and knowing that you could double your net worth, but it would entail playing embarrassing baseball for 3 years solid, being booed regularly, receiving death threats, and destroying a professional franchise financially, ensuring you will always be remembered as the one who ruined team ‘X’.
It’s hard for me to imagine having so much wealth, but it’s also hard to imagine that if I did, I’d be willing to endure that much torture and miserable legacy for a little more.
I don’t know who they would interview in a search process that would be more qualified than John Hart. Hart GM’d the Indians and was successful. He GM’d the Rangers as they rebuilt into a contender. He came into Atlanta and extended all of the young talent other than Heyward.
But wait we essentially have no GM. I like it, I think having no GM is the new Moneyball.
More DOB Tweetering:
“Schuerholz said he never approached Dayton Moore about coming back to ATL and wouldn’t have since he’s under contract 2 more yrs.”
Coppy is our GM in all but title.
And BTW Justin is a Gold Glove finalist for LF so there is that.
Heyward and Simmons are finalists (and should win) as well.
@87, because becoming a pro athlete requires having levels of self-confidence that are well past the border of delusional. In order to be able to push your body to become one of the best athletes in the world, you have to believe that you *are* one of the best athletes in the world. That serves you well in your teens and 20s, when your body’s limits are defined as much by your own willpower as by your physical constraints. But it plays hell with you in your 30s, when that delusion robs you of the ability to tell when it’s time to hang them up.
@87 and 93,
Gil Meche did it a few years ago.
I think the best case scenario for BJ Upton is Gil Meche.
@87 – But would you leave 46+ million dollars on the table? I mean sticks and stones and all that, but shit thats a LOT of dough to walk away from. I wouldn’t do it.
The list of star players who hung around 1 more season (or 2) than they should have is a lengthy and distinguished one. I would include Glavine and Maddox on that list, along with Knucksie, Dale Murphy, Hank Aaron (when he returned to Milwaukee) and Warren Spahn, just to name some Braves.
Others that come to mind include Willie Mays, Steve Carlton and Mickey Mantle, although I date myself with those names.
It’s been clear since about August 6 that the Braves would not compete in 2015. The only question was, and it continues to be, whether they would realize that and construct their offseason around getting rid of 2015-only assets in exchange for assets that could have value in 2016 and beyond.
@94, and the 2011 Royals re-invested Meche’s salary into –
http://www.stevetheump.com/Payrolls.htm#2011payroll
– hahahaha, they didn’t re-invest it in crap, they pocketed it and fielded a crappy team for a basement-level payroll.
Gil Meche worked the first seven years of his career for an aggregate $9.2 million and returned 6.8 WAR over that span. At (let’s adjust backwards for inflation somewhat) $4MM/WAR, he produced a surplus value of $20.4 MM for his teams before he signed the free agent contract. The $11MM at the end was his to keep, productive or not.
That’s the deal. Players are systematically underpaid for the most productive portions of many of their careers, and then once they near their 30s they are allowed to sign free agent contracts that often go bust. But any expectation that the player should return the money once he’s past the point of earning it is a one way street, unless we’re going to apply equal pressure to teams to pay, say, Evan Gattis the surplus $15MM he’s earned in the past two years.
The Braves should do the honorable thing, cut ties with BJ, treat it as a sunk cost, and go about the business of assembling a competitive team. The end.
Preach it, W.C.G.
Might I remind some that the team fielded in 2014 was essentially the same team that won 96 games in 2013. I’m not why sure some say they won’t be competitive next year with such finality.
The problem with the give up on 2015 scenario and trade Upton and Heyward is the expectation that the team will return to competitiveness quickly. The one year contract status of both seriously diminishes their trade value. I doubt we get the Teixiera return from them.
I think it’s too late to trade Heyward. That ship sailed last winter. Now you have to hope for his continual improvement and us locking him up as the cornerstone of the franchise, or if that doesn’t seem possible – due to either his side wanting to test FA, or due to his performance declining again next year – then you then have to hope that we use the money that we would have spent on a long-term Heyward deal and go get a player that’s even better.
@102
Even better? No such thing.
@98
People said players don’t turn down their own contracts, is all. Gillyweed did.
I think we should give BJ Horacio Ramirez’s job and let him stick it to the umpires the way he wants to.
@103
He would challenge every call. He argues every call.
Take that, pace of game committee!
100: Because 2014 showed that Chris Johnson is who we thought he was, and raised serious questions about whether Simmons can hit enough to be a league-average player. I certainly didn’t expect the team to go from one of the best-hitting in 2013 to one of the worst-hitting in 2014, but here we are, and where is the offensive improvement coming from?
@103, that’s fair. I’m just pointing out the subtle bias in calling Meche the “best case scenario.” which sort of implies that the onus is on the underperforming/overpaid player to right the imbalance, but not the other way around.
I’m sort of a zealot about this issue so I apologize if I’m sucking you into a labor relations debate you didn’t really mean to be in. Just always remember that the greatest trick ownership ever pulled was putting the players’ finances in the open while keeping theirs completely opaque.
In my best case scenario, BJ gets paid to go home, the contract is written off as a rounding error on LMCA’s $15.39B market cap*, and Hart and Coppy are given a reasonable budget to assemble 25 playoff-caliber players for 2015, the previous regime’s mistakes having been swallowed and written off.
*shout to @87’s comment about “destroying a professional franchise financially.” This ain’t the American Ultimate Disc League…
Obvious: whatever team that trades for Jupton/Heyward could lay out for the extension that we apparently won’t. Not hard to envision. So we absolutely can get value back.
No Dayton…I have to say, I’m a little sad. I was sort of looking forward to ongoing misadventure.
We need a do-over on the “Coppy” nickname.
108: Right. The exclusive negotiating window has value too. If you are willing to pay top dollar, the right to pay that top dollar before your rival is worth a couple of good prospects.
@86 I agree AAR. It also has to do with JS is still the man running the ship. There is no way he would hire someone he is not comfortable with.
Maybe Ned has changed…
http://sports.yahoo.com/news/royals-manager-lets-young-player-themselves-020645465–mlb.html
@111: Boy, did that name drop of Bobby Cox seem awfully intentional. I get the impression Yost is trying to send messages to the powers that be in Atlanta. If Fredi doesn’t pull it off next year, Hart can say, “Well, Yost did say he was now different than Bobby, whereas Fredi is a Bobby clone. Maybe he wants to come back to Atlanta.” Or, maybe I’m just loopy from a recent lack of sleep.
John Cop-a-feela, John Copacetic, John Ukelele, John Whatafella, Johnny Cop’ran, Copalellapalooza, Sergeant John, Coppy Annan, Cash Cop, the Pet Child of Calamity, Just Plain John. Whatever we call him, the Braves will be…
under John Copalella! ella! ella! ay ay ay!
Copalellapalooza FTW! Although we still need a short form for him. C-Boss (ala sea bass)?
I like C-boss very much.
Hmm..COP-a-lella…
How about ‘The Fuzz.’
(Goes to his relative youth as well….)
Peach Fuzz, then? Incorporates many entendres….
Please, no hyphenated anything. The more absurd, the better.
At the Coppa! Coppacabana!
@116
That’s where I was going with Sergeant John. I like the Fuzz, though.
“The Fuzz is having a closed door meeting with Braves executives.”
Joe Madden is a free man!
Get ‘er done, Hart!
Joe Maddon opted out of his deal with TB per ESPN. Too much to hope for….right?
@111 Interesting stuff.
Maddon is out as Rays manager. Did teams not used to announce any big personnel changes during the World Series? I feel like all sorts of stuff has happened this World Series, but maybe that’s just because of the Hart thing becoming official yesterday.
Hart: Fredi can you come to see me in my office?
Fredi walks in, see’s Joe Maddon sitting on the couch, he slowly turns around, walks out, cleans out his office and drives off into the sunset. No words needed to be spoken.
Would make my day.
Y’all Mattingly has been deposed. Wish it were the Sedate Cuban, but it ain’t.
Yeah, Maddon misses BJ so much…
At least make Maddon the bench coach.
There is no chance in hell that “The Braves Way” braintrust does something smart like signing Joe Maddon. They are far too committed to the sunk cost of hiring the worst manager in baseball to see that Maddon is a franchise-changing hire. Nope–nothing to see here. Fredi’s our man. Why would we want Maddon when we have Fredi? That’s crazy talk.
@122 Yea, I thought that sort of thing was verboten.
@128, that’s pretty much where I’ve been with every facet of the offseason. Lots of deck chair rearranging, but little hope there will be any fundamental improvements, if in fact anything outside of outright regression. The things that need to be done will require money, time, internal re-evaluation, and patience, and from an organization that doesn’t even seem to believe there are institutional problems, it’s a stretch to see it happening here.
Anyone willing to label Fredi “the worst manager in baseball” can be ignored until they get their panties out of that wad. Jesus.
I think a lot of the hires we have made (Roy Clark) were outstanding.
@131 Amen.
The Original Fredi G may (or may not) be a bad manager, but he’s far from the worst.
Fredi is not even the worst manager in the NL East. He is better than Matt Williams, Ryno and Mike Redmond.
I think Terry Collins is actually a decent manager, possible better than Fredi. I imagine he is about to get the boot though.
Here is how I rank NL Managers:
Arizona Diamondbacks: Chip Hale Too Soon to rank
Atlanta Braves: Fredi Gonzalez 7
Chicago Cubs: Rick Renteria 9
Cincinnati Reds: Bryan Price 8
Colorado Rockies: Walt Weiss 13
Los Angeles Dodgers: Don Mattingly 12
Miami Marlins: Mike Redmond 10
Milwaukee Brewers: Ron Roenicke 5
New York Mets: Terry Collins 6
Philadelphia Phillies: Ryne Sandberg 14
Pittsburgh Pirates: Clint Hurdle 2
St. Louis Cardinals: Mike Matheny 3
San Diego Padres: Bud Black 4
San Francisco Giants: Bruce Bochy 1
Washington Nationals: Matt Williams 11
For fun I did all of baseball
Baltimore Orioles: Buck Showalter 3
Boston Red Sox: John Farrell 9
Chicago White Sox: Robin Ventura 21
Cleveland Indians: Terry Francona 2
Detroit Tigers: Brad Ausmus 20
Kansas City Royals: Ned Yost 16
Los Angeles Angels of Anaheim: Mike Scioscia 4
New York Yankees: Joe Girardi 11
Oakland Athletics: Bob Melvin 12
Seattle Mariners: Lloyd McClendon 24
Toronto Blue Jays: John Gibbons 6
Atlanta Braves: Fredi Gonzalez 14
Chicago Cubs: Rick Renteria 17
Cincinnati Reds: Bryan Price 15
Colorado Rockies: Walt Weiss 23
Los Angeles Dodgers: Don Mattingly 22
Miami Marlins: Mike Redmond 18
Milwaukee Brewers: Ron Roenicke 10
New York Mets: Terry Collins 13
Philadelphia Phillies: Ryne Sandberg 25
Pittsburgh Pirates: Clint Hurdle 5
St. Louis Cardinals: Mike Matheny 7
San Diego Padres: Bud Black 8
San Francisco Giants: Bruce Bochy 1
Washington Nationals: Matt Williams 19
Maddon talks: http://fb.me/76k8aUQ8t
Maddon reportedly looking for a deal that would pay him over 5MM/year. The Fuzz just hung up.
Disagreement over “worst” aside (for the record, I don’t think Fredi is good or bad, he just doesn’t add much of anything), just out of curiosity, who would you rather have, Fredi or Maddon?
Maddon, but not for $5 million an year
Fredi Gonzalez vs. Joe Maddon. Hmmm…
Pretty good bet that Maddon will be managing the Dodgers next season.
I can’t find Fredi’s salary (yes, I checked Cot’s). I’m pretty sure it’s not 5MM/year, but does anyone know what it is?
It doesn’t really matter whether I’m using hyperbole guys. It just doesn’t. Fredi is part of the problem, not part of the solution. The Braves’ mgt is far too committed to what is, at best, a slightly below average manager and at worst, the worst manager in baseball. Fredi is a bad in-game manager, and that by itself costs us games. But what may be far worse is his clubhouse effect. Maybe it’s not pure chance that he has managed multiple September meltdowns and a team that has been widely mocked as a bunch of spoiled chest-thumping brats.
If Maddon gets you 1 win per season more than Fredi, he’s worth $5 million per year.
@143: I would imagine $500-750k a year.
Clearly, Harold Reynolds has never watch Andrelton Simmons play a baseball game.
OH MY GOD HIRE JOE MADDON NOW.
Also regarding Coppolella nickname: I’m going to call him Capo, as in Caporegime. John Scheurholz is the Don. For now, John Hart is the Boss. Coppo is the Capo.
Schuerholz is Tony, John Hart is Paulie, and Coppolella is Christopher.
//that makes Cox either Hesh or Uncle June. Stuck on that one.
I guess that would make Wren Big Pussy.
Correct and well done! Should have thought of that.
If Cox is Junior, that makes Fredi Bobby Bacala, which is great.
John Hart is Silvio, not Pauli.
I think Hart is more like Paulie. Who knows what his real allegiances are?
Schuerholtz is Jeffery Lebowski, Bobby Cox is Walter. For now, Coppolella is Donnie, and Hart is The Dude.
Wren is, no doubt, Woo.
In either event, Johnny Sack is McGuirk and AJ is Li’l Jonny, which is also funny.
The Nationals are not fascists. They’re nihilists.
Wow
@InsideEdgeScout: KC has thrown 2287 pitches that hit 97+ MPH. Tops in MLB and more than the #2 (MIA: 1124) and #3 (STL: 1066) combined. #worldseries
I think BJ’s path will be similar to that of Uggla’s with a little more urgency next year. We sign a Bonifacio type to play center field and he battles with BJ in spring training for the starting position. If BJ loses the position in the spring he gets about a month before he’s released. If he wins the position it’s probably 6 to 8 weeks before he’s released. I think the new hitting coach will give his input on whether or not BJ can play very quickly.
Considering his gradual ascent & decisive demise, I think Wren is Phil Leotardo.
Wren is Bill Clinton.
Can we leave the Falcons in London?
See what happens when Ole Miss gets the “Bad Bo”?
http://tinyurl.com/ofvnnrb
#162
I DVR’d the game for that?
If we left then in London they’d somehow end up in Spain.
The most staggering display of “choke” I’ve ever seen.
If I’m Mike Smith, I want to get away from these losers as quickly as possible. Oy.
Oscar Taveras was killed in a car wreck.
@166 A very sad news indeed….RIP Taveras.
@165 Why isn’t Mike Smith be one of those losers?
kc – one could certainly make that argument.
My suggestion: the Ed Orgeron approach –
promote Mike Tice to temporary HC (with a chance to keep the job) as long as he fires both coordinators and finds their replacements. (Piece of cake, I know.)
Dimitroff (the architect of this dumpster fire) should be left in London
We also lost the great Jack Bruce this weekend. Which sent me on a path to watching a documentary I recommend, Beware of Mr. Baker, streaming on Netflix. What are the odds that Bruce would’ve passed first?
Per Bowman, Kevin Seitzer is the new Braves hitting coach.
@171
He’s a “contact” hitting coach. Sounds like it will correlate well for some of our new hitters coming up from the Minors (La Stella, Peraza, Gosselin).
Has he been a hitting coach elsewhere? Or did he just serve as the de facto hitting coach back in the 80s when he was AL rookie of the year?
I am very sorry to hear about Oscar Taveras. For the first time in a long time my heart goes out to the Redbirds.
Edit: Ah, I see Seitzer worked for the Jays last year as their novice “man-in-white” coordinator.
Seitzer’s career to date:
October 27, 2006 – July 11, 2007: hitting coach of the Arizona Diamondbacks
February 7, 2009 – October 4, 2012: hitting coach of the Kansas City Royals
October 31, 2013 – present(?): hitting coach of the Toronto Blue Jays
Name that speaker?
Beane?
or Maddon.
Maddon.
Maddon is a smart, smart man.
#170
About the Cream guys, had the same conversation with someone the other day. I’m sure the NY TImes has had Baker’s obit written for awhile.
And about Bruce & Baker, in particular, rarely will you see last acts so bitter.
Rany Jazayerli is a huge fan of Kevin Seitzer’s work as hitting coach.
http://www.ranyontheroyals.com/2013/08/the-missing-ingredient.html
New thread.