Atlanta Braves vs. Boston Red Sox – Box Score – June 22, 2012 – ESPN.
So Jair Jurrjens returned, and it was the Good Jurrjens, keeping the ball in the park, not walking people, but only getting a handful of strikeouts so you’re not too certain about his long-term outlook.
The game was scoreless through three when Matt Diaz grounded out to score Freddie Freeman, and Andrelton Simmons doubled home Jason Heyward (who was 3-4 with two doubles on the day) to make it 2-0. Simmons added an insurance run with a sac fly to score Heyward in the sixth.
Meanwhile, Jurrjens was cruising. He allowed a first inning single and a third inning walk, and that was it until the eighth. He allowed a leadoff double in that inning, and another double with two out to make it 3-1; Chad Durbin came in to get the last out. Freeman singled in Michael Bourn in the ninth to make it 4-1, and Craig Kimbrel had, yes, a 1-2-3 ninth for the easy save.
Sources — Potential deal for Boston Red Sox 3B Kevin Youkilis nearing – ESPN Boston.
“The Braves reportedly have scouted Youkilis repeatedly in the past week.”
I should hope so, what with the playing the Red Sox and all.
I’ve been out of the loop lately, so what’s the consensus on Youkilis around here? He seems to be a talent on the decline. I’m guessing his acquisition would mean our expenditure of J.J. Hoover would be a total waste. He’d play third and a little first (and DH)? Would he be acquired to play every day?
I could root for him, but I don’t want to have to. He’s probably my least favorite ballplayer to watch.
Don’t we need a “Greek God of Walks?”
I don’t see where Youkilis would play, unless Freeman were part of the trade or was sent down. He isn’t taking Chipper’s job, and probably not Prado’s, and Heyward’s been the team’s best player for the past few weeks.
Discussion question!
Three Braves centerfielders: Wally Berger, Dale Murphy, Andruw Jones. All of gold glove quality, especially Jones, who some systems consider the greatest defensive player of all time. Murphy won two MVPs, Berger and Jones had MVP-type years (leading the league in homers and RBI). All had high peaks but lack good hang-around value. (Andruw is doing okay as a platoon player.) By similarity scores, Murphy and Jones are each other’s top comp. (Berger has a Hall of Famer, Hack Wilson — I’m pretty sure he was actually a better player than Wilson.)
Now, which one of the three is the best Hall of Fame candidate. I tend to think that Jones, because of his defense, is the best player, or at least the one who stands out the most.
Best Player: Jones
Best HOF Candidate: Murphy (largely because of the MVPs)
he problem for both is the number of bad seasons, not good ones. The Hall recognizes the accumulation of counting stats without too bad deterioration in any of them — like C. Jones
Really, Andruw has only had 1 bad season. He’s been quite successful in a part-time role the past 4 years.
Jones will be affected by the era he played in, which, if clean, is a shame. 10 straight legit GGs with many saying “best defensive CF of all time” should be enough to get anyone in. Add 450 HR to that resume, and there’s no doubt he’s the best HOF candidate of the 3.
If Andruw peaked in any other decade other than the one he peaked in, he’s a no-brainer.
Andruw Jones will eventually be inducted into the Hall of Fame. He just might not be around to see it. The current generation of sportswriters will pass away, and the new generation will value players like Jones (and Tim Raines, etc.) much more highly. There will be a lot of re-evaluation of Steroid Era players once memories have faded.
A successful part-time player is not a HOFer. Accumulating counting stats in that way will count against him. The standards for the Hall may well change, and I think Jones was the best player, so if they change in ways I find appropriate, he’s in. I’m not sanguine. Other than GG, however, there’s no counting stat for defense. And there are a lot of GG who aren’t in. Shortstop is the obvious xception to this rule. Center Field should be, but never has been before. And let me know when a great defensive catcher who couldn’t hit makes it in. Scioscia? Torborg? Now Andruw could hit — that’s why he’s a lot closer than agreat defensive catcher who couldn’t hit. I just don’t think under current standards he hit for long enough. And his best stat, HR, is not as relevant a stat in this era, whether that’s PED-related or not.
Berger is a clear notch below, although his peak is not as short as I once thought. He and Mel Ott were the only two NLers to finish in the top 10 in HRs every year of the ’30s.
Bahahahaha
http://deadspin.com/5920759?utm_campaign=socialflow_deadspin_twitter&utm_source=deadspin_twitter&utm_medium=socialflow
I personally feel that anyone in the conversation of ‘greatest defensive player ever’ deserves to be in the Hall regarless of offensive ability. Being a formidable power hitter for a decade makes Andruw a shoo-in for me (not that I nessecarily expect HOF voters to see it that way). And I know defense is hard to quantify, but I think Andruw probably did a lot to help those great Braves pitchers age gracefully (through the peak of the ‘PED era’ no less).
I mean, Ozzie Smith got in entirely based on his defense. I see no reason why Andruw wouldn’t.
America is back!
Yeah, I think Andruw is the best HOF candidate of ’em, though I wouldn’t mind seeing all three of them in. Berger is hurt by the fact that his team was SO bad, and as Bill James wrote in The Politics of Glory, his era is already overrepresented by a lot of average guys on dynastic teams. In order to get Berger in, you’d need to make a compelling case that he’s one of the best players not currently in the Hall — and you can’t do that now, because there are guys like Raines and Trammell (and Whitaker), and you probably never will be able to. He’s not a Santo-like anomaly. He’s just a guy who has the numbers and probably won’t make it, like Dick Allen.
I think at some point, 70 WAR will be a counting stat that basically works like 280 wins or 500 homers — maybe not absolutely everyone with that many will make it, but the vast majority of them will, whether it’s by the ballot or by the Veterans Committee.
Neither Andruw nor Griffey had an “All Star” (5+ bWAR) season past age 30. That is just unbelievable.
Having said that, Murphy was of course a much better peak offense player than Andruw. But having watched both in person at their absolute best (hang on, I’m not going to “you had to see them”!) for me, Murph hit as well as anyone for five years or so. Andruw played CF like few, if any ever have in the history of the game for about 10. That’s more “famous” if you will, to me.
Bill Mazeroski got in entirely based on his defense. I think Andruw is a more likely Veterans Committee candidate, like Maz.
Bill had a pretty singular WS moment to go along with that that may have helped.
Jair!
If Andruw Jones doesn’t make the HOF, they may as well burn the place down.
@21 – That’s about the way I feel about it.
How could Andre Dawson get in and not Andruw Jones?
I think 10 is probably right.
My standard for a Hall of Famer-which many members don’t make-is being a great player for a long time. Murphy was a great player but not for a long time. Andruw was a great defensive player for a long time and a good but generally not great offensive player. I have to admit not being a huge Andruw fan-I disliked seeing him constantly striking out on low and away curves. But the advanced stats show he was a much better player than I once thought. To me, at his peak, I would rather have had Dale Murphy, but his peak wasn’t long enough. I know nothing about Berger. So, I guess I go with Andruw.
By the way, has anyone noticed that Yunel Escobar is having a lousy year?
Ken Rosenthal says we’re out on Youkilis.
For those considering getting on the Fredi bandwagon….
http://blogs.ajc.com/atlanta-braves-blog/2012/06/22/gonzalez-no-plans-to-move-resurgent-heyward-up-in-order/?cxntfid=blogs_atlanta_braves_blog
Tautologies, false dichotomies, and mastery of the obvious –
“He’s been fine [where he is], and you kind of want to split up the left-handers,” Gonzalez said before Friday’s series opener against the Boston Red Sox. “But he’s done fine there. Hitting sixth, seventh, fifth the other day against a right-hander.”
“When he’s hitting seventh, that means your lineup is going pretty good,” Gonzalez said, adding that Heyward has never voiced any displeasure or concern over his position in the batting order.”
Ought put him on the bench then. I mean, if a guy like Heyward can’t break in to your lineup, you must be doing pretty good, right?
Hell, let’s send him to the minors. That’s how good we intend to be.
Just looked at Freddie’s splits this year. Yikes!
against LHP: .607 OPS
@29-Grant him his outright release. We intend to be too deep to carry him, aswell!
This Saturday Fox monopoly is so f***ing obnoxious. Will I ever be able to watch a Braves game on a Saturday again?
Guys, I’ve been trying to make a lineup that splits up the lefties and also doesn’t have Heyward batting seventh. I only have two spots left, and I just can’t figure it out. Help??????
Bourn
Prado
Uggla
Jones
Freeman
Simmons
Pitcher
@33
I think I see a couple of possible answers, but I’m not going to say. You’re almost there!
Making me want to reread a certain 64-commentator tournament from the beginning yet again, here’s Mark Cuban annihilating Skip Bayless.
I suppose Cuban just wanted it more.
We had a double steal and a McCann infield hit in the same inning. Impossible!
Struggla..
Uggla, Freeman and Chipper might be the three worst hitter in our lineup right now.
Thank you, Adam. That just made my Saturday.
Brooks Conrad just knocked in the tying run in the 9th for Tampa Bay against Papelbon and the Phillies.
Get it together, Randall.
We’re done.
Go get him, next contestant please.
Throw strikes, Randall, and make them hit it to Andrelton.
Good start, Randall.
This is so gross.
Shut up, Coop.
We have a new losing streak, folks!
Delgado: still bad.
Thank you, Lisp.
Well, we suck again.
I hope they don’t play like this tomorrow, or it’s going to be a long day at Fenway.
WHY DO THEY SWING AT THE FIRST F*CKING PITCH
Why do they keep giving up a run the very next half-inning after scoring?
Hey, Chipper!
Still in it, be nice to get one more here.
Well shit.
Blarg.
So Barves…
Cody Ross, career vs. Atlanta Braves:
.267/.336/.462, with 9 home runs in 221 at-bats.
Feels so much worse than that.
Thanks, Venters!
Oughta just leave Venters in to finish it now. At least then he won’t be able to pitch for a few games.
On nights like this, I used to like scrolling through the MILB scores to see how the prospects played. Unfortunately, there doesn’t seem to be any real prospects in our farm anymore.
With Beachy out this year and most of next, going after Garza seems like a good move. What would it take to land him?
@64, He’s got a season and a half remaining. So not as much as Tex did for us, but at least one good prospect in a package.
Dempster might be a better fit, but of course I’d rather have Garza.
What’s Evan Gattis’ status?
Garza would cost more than we want to pay, methinks. Christian Betancourt, for example.
I wonder if Salcedo is in play this year? I also wonder if they club has soured on Terdoslavich.
that Cook fella gets a lot of double plays.
and this McCann fella seems to hit into many this year.
Jason’s locked in. Isn’t Bethany at the game today?
MM looking okay through 2.
Big Diesel!
So now Youkilis is hurt. I’m guessing that we won’t be acquiring him.
Very professional of the umpire to track down Fredi so he could argue with him some more.
I am at the game, great seats too. We suck so bad.
Betcha never seen anything suck so bad from so up close, huh?
If you’re going to wallow in the suck, that ain’t a bad place to do it.
Aaron Freakin’ Cook.
Dan Uggla, OPS by month:
Mar/April 2011: .630
May 2011: .501
June 2011: .629
July 2011: .955
August 2011: 1.076
September 2011: .803
April 2012: .784
May 2012: .874
June 2012: .715
That is true, I just wish there wasn’t a little tyrant next to me. I am supposed to have an empty seat next to me, but the family sitting around me doesn’t much care.
Like clockwork, when Mike Minor hits the fourth inning, he loses command of his fastball.
Seriously Mike Minor, get off my team.
Well, here we go.
GET OFf MY TEAM
I HATE YOU, MIKE MINOR.
Mike Minor gonna Mike Minor.
A Mike Minor specialty…2 walks and a homerun. He is the constant MVP of whoever the Braves play
Let’s make it 3 in a row
He’s a swingman. Put him in the bullpen, don’t let him go more than 3. Ever.
I am sooo glad Fredi put Medlen in last night in the 9th with the game out of reach…
I feel about Mike Minor the way these guys feel about Stanley Spadowski:
Minor is worse than Sandusky.
Did you ever in your life think you’d see Eric Hinske hit a double and a triple in the same game, Bethany?
Never thought Hinske would be the hero.
How did that one not go out?
Okay. Thanks.
And now I feel like this kid: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C2SkqaCO9c4
And no, Alex, I never thought I’d see that from Hinske.
Top of the order really came through there.
Stranding a runner at second with no outs, however, is perfectly normal.
What is Minor still doing in the game, Mr. Fredi?
Wow, Andrelton;s got a gun.
I HATE MIKE MINOR
Again, Minor as the MVP of thd opposition
I don’t get to watch many Braves games often, which is probably good. It’s maybe like how Billy Beane in Moneyball doesn’t watch the game, so he can maintain some objectivity. But dadgum, it is hard watching Mike Minor pitch. I watched his episode in the 5th, and while he did himself no favors, he had a couple BS shots hit off him. I hope this kid gets it together.
It is very clear who has the pictures this year.
I want to run on the field and take Minor out.
I hate Cody Ross.
Enjoy the atmosphere, Bethany. Pretend you’re a Boston fan.
See you Tuesday, Braves Journalists.
I wish… this… had not happened.
The king of throwing nut shot hanging curve balls…Mike “should be back in the” Minor leagues
Technically, in this inning, Minor did his job. He got three outs with a single mixed in.
Bigger picture, though…I hope this means we’ve all gotten the “But Minor had one good game against the Yankees!” out of our collective system. Even if Jurrjens manages to return to form, we still need a rotation upgrade to be a real playoff-caliber team.
Well, you can’t say that Minor is inconsistent.
Its a good thing there was an error behind him, before Minor shit all over himself. Now he’ll have someone to blame.
Teheran has been awful in AAA, Jurrjens is already in the majors, and Medlen is back in the bullpen. That leaves… Redmond?
The Braves need another arm if they want a chance to compete this year, otherwise they don’t have enough pitching.
When you’re leading the NL in HR allowed, there’s no statistical flukes … you’re just lousy.
They can’t possibly let Minor stay in the rotation after this latest shit show, can they? Kris Medlen may take hostages.
Safe to say this team needs to acquire a starting pitcher.
My wife has maybe heard a total of… 20 cuss words out of my mouth. Not trying to sound pious, but I try to keep things in check around her. I may have heard 3 from her, so, ya know, keep it in check. We were working out at the gym, and I watch the 3-run homer from Cody Ross, and she hears me say, “F*ck you, Cody Ross.” Needless to say, the look of bewilderment and anger from her was priceless.
What makes all this worse is that with an off-day last Thursday and one tomorrow, Fredi could have avoided the horror show of Minor at Fenway and skipped his turn in the lineup. But that requires thinking, which requires sentience, which is beyond our manager’s capability.
Minor needs to go to the bullpen or have a change of scenery. Maybe he is the trade bait.
JASON HEYWARD WANTS TO HIT THIRD FREDI, YOU FUCKING MORON.
Wren should be on the phone with the Padres for Quentin or the Twins for Willingham. Somewhere where Minor’s flyball tendencies won’t matter as much.
Good thing Freeman hits in front of Heyward.
Don Sutton: “That was a lousy call on my part, because I didn’t think it was going to go out.”
A broadcaster who admits that one of his calls wasn’t particularly good or descriptive? Chip could learn something.
And BMac.
And uggla.
Jason Heyward is so effing good.
The rest of the Braves, not so much.
Jamie Moyer was just released at his request by the Orioles. That would be an interesting pickup. If we could get Julio Franco to sign as a package deal, I’d be all for it.
Oh, yeah: F*ck you, Cody Ross.
That huge double notwithstanding, Kris Medlen and Mike Minor need to switch roles right now.
Teheran has a rough ERA+ of 110 and a 3.5 ERA. Not dominating, but hardly awful. His K’s are down about 1 per 9, and allowed a few more HRs. Well within random variance over 13 starts.
“He’s been fine [where he is], and you kind of want to split up the left-handers,” Gonzalez said before Friday’s series opener against the Boston Red Sox. “But he’s done fine there. Hitting sixth, seventh, fifth the other day against a right-hander.”
You know, I actually agree with Sam that substituting another manager for Fredi would fail to make much of a difference–at least in the long run. But I also just can’t stand the guy. I find him to be arrogant and stupid and even a little condescending. I just wish he would go away. I’ll take my chances with the next guy. Please.
On Teheran: his 5.15 FIP in AAA is pretty ugly. He’s also striking out fewer than 2 guys for every walk, which will almost certainly get worse in the majors. He’s having an extremely disappointing year.
I’d rather see Ross than BMac here.
All things being equal now I would rather have Bourn than B-Mac next year
Well now that I can get behind. I don’t necessarily find him arrogant but he comes across as a peevish company man. I can take cliche spouting for what it is, and in all fairness, he’s done some things I find most un-by the book. But they are quite rare compared to the slavish amount of by the book or just plain crazy crap like batting Heyward 7th even now.
Mccann has no business hitting this high in the order
It’s aggravating, and I wish he’d move Heyward up, but the batting 7th thing doesn’t bother me tons. Batting order optimization doesn’t make a huge difference on expected runs in the grand scheme of things, and I don’t really want the manager to go with an overly hot-hand-influenced approach toward the lineup. Also, I remember when Heyward started out his rookie year scorching hot in the 7th place in the lineup, and then they moved him up in the lineup and he majorly cooled down.
I’m really happy to see Heyward succeed. I’m kind of leaning towards not rocking the boat. I hate that everyone else is struggling, but I don’t want to put any more pressure on Jason.
And again on Teheran, he’s got 47 ks in 64 ip. That puts him 6 or so k’s off last years rate. Similar granular differences in HR and BB. For me, that’s just too small a sample size, and too small a variance, to declare “disappointment” yet.
Clown baseball.
The thing about Teheran is that reports indicate the Braves are leaning on him to continually work on just one pitch. If that’s true, at age 21, his results are actually pretty impressive.
It also says the Braves don’t think he’s ready and want to polish up just one aspect of his game a bunch. But I’m reserving judgment for now.
Well that Youkilis exit there was one of the wierdest things I’ve seen.
How do you actually call that a hit and not an error?
Awww, Youkalis looks so sad. This is clearly his last game in this uniform.
@146 One would think that was the only reason to pinch run for a guy on 3rd.
It would be a hoot if they traded him to the braves and they put him in.
I didn’t realize that about Teheran. I obviously hope it’s true–that he’s basically working on a singular aspect of his repertoire, results be damned.
Chip cracks himself up with his cleverness.
@144: Very weird. Nothing’s even final yet.
Matt Diaz has a -17 wRC+ against righties this year. We’ve reached the point where literally any other position player would be a better option against right handed pitchers.
@149, It’s not being discussed a ton. But here. I was like you before I found out.
I think it’s really silly when these morons on TV say the road trip was a “victory” just because you split the trip in “two of the toughest places to win on the road.” Nevermind the team played like crap two out of three games in Boston.
So Youk went to the White Sox. Eh, whatever.
So dont have time to review all the posts, but this has to be Minors last start right? Get Medlen in the rotation…maybe Teheran also.
Its sad, but no way this team can compete with jj delgado and minor every three out of 5 Games.
rumor is it’s Zach Stewart and our ol pal Lillibridge for Youk
So Zach Stewart and Brent Lillibridge. Our equivalent would be Minor and Pastornicky?
I’m alive! There was some doubt there, I spent the last day flat on my back in bed, but I have recapped the most recent atrocity.
Minor can use two months in the minor league like JJ. Put Medlen in the rotation and trade for some quality bullpeb arms. The cost is lower this way.
Take care Mac.