Weren’t we already in Cincinnati? game thread: June 16, Braves at Reds

Also, I have done some research and have determined that if Jeff Francoeur were a band, he would be the Bay City Rollers. Normally you would expect a Bay City Rollers video here, but get real. Cincinnati is easy.

178 thoughts on “Weren’t we already in Cincinnati? game thread: June 16, Braves at Reds”

  1. Guys, thanks for all the college insights.

    I get to see the Braves on Fox Sports Ohio. yessssssss. I’ll shoo my kids out of the room. No sense in them learning new combinations of curse words.

    Last word on Ichiro. HOFer. Voters like the high BAs and 200 hit seasons.

  2. Re last thread’s discussion of trading the Out Machine within the division–that seems like the best place to trade him. Just think of all the easy outs that would come from facing him 18 times during a season. That’d be something like 80 PA and 60 outs!

    edit–Sending him to the Marlins would be ok, but the Mets seem like just the right fit.

  3. Your line-up tonight:

    1. Jordan Schafer CF
    2. Jason Heyward RF
    3. Chipper Jones 3B
    4. Freddie Freeman 1B
    5. Brian McCann C
    6. Nate McLouth LF
    7. Yunel Escobar SS
    8. Brandon Hicks 2B
    9. Cole Rohrbough LHP

  4. As excited as I was when Frenchy first arrived, just looking at his swing made you wonder how prolific a hitter he would be long-term. Pitchers adapted to him quickly, but Frenchy can’t seem to break the bad habits. Nevertheless you have to think the threat of his rifle arm in RF saves us at least a dozen runs a season.

  5. I think Francouer is doing a Moe Berg. The reason he can’t hit is that he actually speaks 12 languages and has an IQ of 150. He is really a spy; the US government is going to drop him into North Korea after performing surgery to make him look Korean (see James Bond); he will then become the heir apparent to Kim Jung IL and he will dismantle the North Korean nuclear program all by himself. Of course, this could come to naught if Bobby Cox refuses to let him go to North Korea because who the hell else could play right field?

  6. From the last thread:
    Ichiro never had Gwynn’s peak let alone his decline.

    First, let me say I never tried to argue or even imply that Ichiro is as good as Gwynn. Just that if Gwynn is a no-brainer, Ichiro deserves to be in the discussion.

    That being said, here’s Ichiro’s career stats (age 27 – 34) vs. Tony’s age 27-34 years:

    Year Tm G PA AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI SB CS BB SO BA OBP SLG OPS OPS+ TB GDP HBP SH SF IBB
    1987-1994 SDP 1083 4713 4245 639 1434 244 53 51 484 169 62 397 201 .338 .392 .456 .849 134 1937 111 8 26 37 122

    2001-2008 SEA 1280 5929 5460 885 1805 197 64 73 469 315 70 380 526 .331 .377 .430 .807 117 2349 42 40 22 27 127

    Not too far off. I guess my point is, if Ichiro had been able play a full career over here, they’d probably have similar career totals. And voters don’t really understand era-adjusted stats.

    EDIT: OK, the formatting sux. But you get the idea…

  7. Johnny Fever: So, Les – what are those Mexican dogs, again?

    Les Nessman: Chi – hua – huas?

    Loved that show.

    That and “Taxi” made watching sitcoms worthwhile.

  8. There’s still a significant difference in OPS+ (134-117). But that’s offset by an extra 146/154 SBs, 8 extra runs saved per year on defense (per their respective Rtz ratings for those seasons — and no, I don’t know how good that metric is), and the biggie — 168 games missed over those 8 seasons by Gwynn versus 16 missed by Ichiro.

  9. To Spike, from the last thread: Ichiro’s lifetime Offensive Winning Percentage — the winning percentage of a lineup made up of 9 Ichiros — is .619. That’s quite good, though you’re right that they might not be “worldbeaters.” Gwynn’s, by contrast, is .668.

  10. The missed games are the only one of those that’s hugely relevant. You adjust by going to the counting stats. Gwynn led the league in Runs Created in 1987 and was in the top ten six times in his career, three times in the period. Ichiro finished second in RC in 2004 and finished in the top ten three times. Pretty even. I still think Gwynn was a far superior player; 1990-92, the heart of that period, was probably the worst part of his career.

  11. Repost from prev.

    I concur that he will get in, and that his skill set is unique among ML players of today (he really would have been something to see in the dead ball era I think). I just find most of his accomplishments to be of comparatively limited value the way the game is played today. Put another way, I don’t see a team of Ichiros as world beaters versus a team of average HOF RF’s.

    Jason –

    I say again, even using the years you chose, Ichiro! is down .331/.377/.430/.807/117 to Gwynn’s .338/.392/.456/.849/134. It’s waaaay far off. Even if we ignore era/park adjustments Ichiro! is still behind in each of the rate stats here, significantly so in slugging and OPS. They really aren’t comparable players.

  12. I think 4 runs per year in stolen bases, 8 runs per year in defense, and +- 8 runs per year in replacement value is all significant, and goes just about all the way in making up the difference. Yeah, if I had one game to win and had to pick one of them, I’d pick Gwynn and hope he plays. But with Ichiro I wouldn’t have to hope.

  13. Great post Mac!! Notice that Venus’s jacket spells Cincinnato, I wonder was this deliberate on CBS in the 70’s or has HULU or the DVD company enhanced this to not pay the copyright.
    Also, I would compare Jeffy to Christopher Cross, a great (if rather manufactured) first album and then sucksville.

  14. I think 4 runs per year in stolen bases, 8 runs per year in defense, and +- 8 runs per year in replacement value is all significant, and goes just about all the way in making up the difference. Yeah, if I had one game to win and had to pick one of them, I’d pick Gwynn and hope he plays. But with Ichiro I wouldn’t have to hope.

    yeah but you are applying that to a cherry picked 7 year time period. Tony didn’t really have a decline phase, so when Ichiro carries on for another 8 seasons or so at his career rate averages, call me, and even then, we still can argue about what he may or may not have done from 22 – 26 in the major leagues here. In 5 of his last 6 seasons (36 – 41) Gwynn was better than Ichiro’s career average OPS+.

    I say again, Ichiro! will likely make the hall of fame, and I don’t think he would be the worst selection by far. The assertion that he isn’t very far statistically from Gwynn is really a non starter though.

  15. Who else fits? Carew maybe, but he had a great peak from 1978-1983 and was pretty ordinary the rest of the time. There really isn’t anyone else who has Ichiro’s profile of very high batting averages and low-to-middling walk and HR totals.

    Highest career batting averages since 1945, with between 50 and 150 career homers:

    AVERAGE AVG HR
    1 Tony Gwynn .338 135
    2 Ichiro Suzuki .331 73
    3 Wade Boggs .328 118
    4 Rod Carew .328 92
    5 George Kell .314 74
    6 Jackie Robinson .311 137
    7 Ralph Garr .306 75
    8 Placido Polanco .306 80
    9 Mike Greenwell .303 130
    10 Harvey Kuenn .303 87

    Most of the others walked a lot more and had much lower BAs. Boggs was in different class as a hitter. Ralph Garr, at his absolute peak, was a similar hitter, but that peak wasn’t very long and he wasn’t close to the defensive player Gwynn was, much less Ichiro.

  16. I’ll try one more time to express a contrary opinion to those who would state their opinion as fact:

    Yes, Gwynn had two great years and one very good one before the time frame we’re talking about, but we’re leaving it out because Ichiro couldn’t play here then. Anyway, the way Ichiro hit the US ground running, it’s clear he’d have been doing his thing for a while if he could have.

    And as for Gwynn’s decline phase — he certainly never lost the ability to hit, and 1997 was just plain sick. But I remember watching him then, and he was increasingly a statue on the bases and in the field. When he wasn’t hurt because he got too fat. Ichiro will not hit as well as Gwynn through age 40, just as he never has, but he puts a lot more on the table and takes nothing off. There’s a good chance I’ll have a stronger argument at that point.

  17. I like the “if they were a band, what band would they be?” game. Let me try!

    Mike Gonzalez: Love

    Both are Southern Californians that kick ass when they’re around, but have a habit of disappearing. When they come back, they’re as awesome as ever, but you’re never quite sure how long you’ll be able to rely on them…

  18. Garret Anderson: Jane’s Addiction

    Used to be good; were madly beloved on the West Coast, where people said they were “underrated” for so long that they somehow became overrated. They delivered some extremely nice performances once upon a time. Now, they’re just terrible.

  19. I’ll try one more time to express a contrary opinion to those who would state their opinion as fact:

    That’s neither fair nor accurate. I did no such thing. In fact, I’m not the one extrapolating from an arbitrary 7 year period and then adding in what-might-have-beens and conjuring adjustments from, shall we say, unproven at best defensive stats.

    There’s a good chance I’ll have a stronger argument at that point.

    That sir, is my point exactly – at that point assuming Ichiro can produce as he has now and avoid injury for another, oh, 7.5 years, you will have a stronger argument than today. I am just not willing to concede a third or more of the tail end of a player’s career as necessarily being as good as the first two thirds. Obviously, we differ here.

    Selah.

  20. I love Mini Kiss. I always wondered how much Gene Simmons makes off them.

    If players were film directors…

    Jeff Francoeur: M. Night Shyamalan

    Started strong, never improved, but kept trotting out the same tired act until he became the butt of jokes.

  21. “The assertion that he isn’t very far statistically from Gwynn is really a non starter though.”

    “They really aren’t comparable players.”

    That, my good man, is stating opinion as fact.

    Further, the time frame isn’t arbitrary, it’s the entirety of Ichiro’s career versus Gwynn’s performance at the same age. That’s every bit of what we have to go on — the opposite of arbitrary.

    -30-

  22. 1. McLouth CF
    2. Escobar SS
    3. C. Jones 3B
    4. McCann C
    5. Anderson LF
    6. Kotchman 1B
    7. Francoeur RF
    8. Johnson 2B
    9. Jurrjens P

  23. And then there’s the opposite of good judgement, which is what Joe Buck displayed last night by inviting Artie Lang on his HBO debut.

    See you back in the broadcast booth, Joe.

  24. And then there’s the opposite of surprising, which is that Sammy Sosa was another of the 104 players who got caught taking banned substances in 2003, on the same list as A-Rod.

    So Slammin’ Sammy cheated, huh? I guess it’s nice we finally know someone has proof.

  25. Other cases of the opposite of good judgment.
    Keeping Anderson on the roster (and giving him the majority of LF starts),
    Starting Francoeur day after day,
    Sending the only player of 3 recent callups (Hernandez, Blanco, Canizares) that has shown any sign at all that he may be able to hit in the majors this year, back to the minors.

  26. If players were film directors…

    Ted Williams = John Ford
    Ty Cobb = Sam Peckinpah
    Babe Ruth = Busby Berkeley

    …and Tony Gwynn = Orson Welles :p

  27. “The assertion that he isn’t very far statistically from Gwynn is really a non starter though.”

    Fact, as of today, he is not. Do some mental gymnastics, and assumptions about career length, sure, maybe close.

    Further, the time frame isn’t arbitrary, it’s the entirety of Ichiro’s career versus Gwynn’s performance at the same age. That’s every bit of what we have to go on — the opposite of arbitrary.

    It IS arbitrary with respect to Gwynn’s career. You can’t just arbitrarily ignore Gwynn’s very good years before your selected endpoints and after that, and presume Ichiro would have done/will do something similar. The only absolute facts we have are the ones in the record book (http://www.baseball-reference.com/compare.cgi?top=/players/s/suzukic01.shtml). And in almost every significant counting and rate stat Ichiro is behind. I say again, they are not statistically comparable TODAY.

  28. Last week, I saw Joe Buck’s HBO promo & was properly repelled enough to avoid the show. No big deal.

    But somebody sent me a link to Artie Lang’s destructo act and, as repulsive as he is/was, it was pretty perfect.

    Joe Buck wanted edgy; instead he got a turd in his swimming pool.

  29. I don’t believe Francoeur ever did anything quite on par with Cimino’s The Deer Hunter.

    I think he’s more like Dennis Dugan, who started out by directing Happy Gilmore, then moved onto classics like Beverly Hills Ninja, The Benchwarmers, and I Now Pronounce You Chuck & Larry.

  30. What did Matt Diaz do to Bobby’s wife?
    Couldn’t have been worse than what Bobby did, I’m sure.

    On the other hand, Mrs. Frenchy should have nothing to worry about.

  31. I’ll toss out Uwe Boll as the Frenchy comparison. Boll continues to get director gigs despite consecutive Tomatometer scores of 11%, 4%, 1%, 4%, 8%, and 4%.

  32. On the other hand, Mrs. Frenchy should have nothing to worry about.

    If Frenchy’s boudoir persona matches his batters box persona, Mrs. Frenchy doesn’t have much to get excited about, either.

  33. Joe Simpson just said that McCann was the best hitting catcher in baseball. I love McCann, and prior to this year there was a case, but Joe Mauer is hitting .414. With power.

  34. Well Sosa is now implicated in the “anonymous” test group of 2003. NY Times, again, anonymous sources, again. Really, I don’t see how a shield law can ever be considered when journalistic institutions allow themselves to become cat’s paws of those who are in fact breaking the law and violating someone else’s rights. It’s just infuriating to me.

    edit: my fondest hope would be that one of these leaks turns out to be false and that someone gets the financial bomb dropped on them.

  35. Spike, I appreciate that the use of anonymous sources often goes too far, but sports journalism and political journalism basically wouldn’t happen without anonymous sources.

    If people didn’t get pissed off and speak to people they weren’t supposed to speak to, all we’d ever know is the official version.

    Also, you don’t have to wait for the financial bomb to hit the New York Times. It’s hit already. They are in a world of hurt.

  36. Wait… If Yunel was benched for being “lackadaisical”, explain ACHE.

    That’s full speed. Always has been. Garret has never been all that interested in the parts of the game that aren’t hitting. Drove Angels fans pretty batty over the years. As in, “We really decided to trade Jim Edmonds to keep this guy?” batty.

    It’s funny to me that the Braves haven’t produced one decent outfielder in years, but the Angels of that vintage came up with Edmonds, Salmon, Garret, and Erstad about at the same time…and then of course traded the best one away for Kent Bottenfield and Adam Kennedy.

  37. Aiding an anonymous source in the commission of a crime is no virtue, and certainly not warranting of protection, in my estimation.

  38. Let’s see… The last real major league outfielders the Braves produced were Andruw and Dye, in 1996. Ouch. But that was the same time that the Angels came up with those guys.

  39. Started the game late and just watched Jeffy’s AB. So, he swings at two pitches on the outside (the first was a strike and the other was high and outside the zone). Then, WITH TWO STRIKES, he lets a pitch nearly identical to the first one he swung at go by for strike three. So, this was in your wheelhouse when you were 0-0, but now it’s a take? How does this happen? The guy is beyond lost.

  40. #69

    Was thinking the same thing. So frustrating. How much longer do we have to endure this guy?

  41. But Jones believes the problems with Francoeur are not all mental: “He’s tried. He’s worked. But he has some fundamental issues that he can’t feel. You can tell him don’t arm-bar at the plate [keeping arm stiff and parallel to ground]. I can show him what it does to his swing but he can’t fix it because he can’t feel it. If you can’t feel it, you can’t make the adjustment. You can show him his stance in his rookie year and show him last year and all the major differences. But he doesn’t feel it.”

    Ububba mentioned this on the last thread (quoting Schultz’s blog post).

    I often drop my shoulder when swinging at a softball. It annoys me because I know I’ve done it right after… but I can’t always really get the feel for how to correct it. I don’t play baseball for a living, though. And this still doesn’t explain a complete lack of batting eye / plate discipline.

  42. Damn it. We need the rain up here in Columbus but it rains like hell in Cincy. When I want to watch baseball. Typical. @34 funny

  43. Last time they broke in, Jon said it was “pouring”. I’m going to call what I can and say that if this game is finished, morning recap.

  44. A lot of the time, information is classified or sealed simply because releasing it would be embarrassing to someone. That’s rarely worth criminalizing, in my opinion.

    Look, I realize I’m mostly making an argument about government documents, which are frankly a lot more civically important than athlete drug tests. I don’t care a whole lot about Sosa’s public reputation; he’s a public figure, and public figures get dragged through the mud. It happens. Certainly, he has a right to be pissed off that his trust was violated — but he cheated and got caught, and his injured trust comes years after he made a complete ass of himself by pretending that he didn’t know English in front of Congress.

    I don’t particularly feel that knowing the fact that he cheated is an objectively bad thing. I generally feel like more information is better.

  45. @72 This is just another example that proves Frenchy is not so talented and gifted after all. Or am I wrong?

  46. so if we get rained out at this point in the game, is it completely washed out and start over from scratch or do we pick it up later at this point? I cant ever figure these things out and dont care enough to go find out somewhere.

    $20.00 says Dusty brings Harang back out, he did last time for Harang to face 1 batter after a 3hr rain delay

  47. back off, wtf, they make us come out to hit in a flood and then delay it again? doesnt seem right

  48. It’s too bad Francoeur made contact with the first pitch. I wanted him to flail and miss spectacularly on at least a couple of those near-Eephus pitches Herrera is sending to the plate. I accept that No. 7 is going to fail at the plate; I just want it to be entertaining for as long as we have to put up with him.

  49. The really sad thing is that we can’t even root for the team to tank, as they’ve made it clear they won’t be going after any significant draft picks.

    On that note, have we signed Minor yet? If not, why the hell did we draft him if he wasn’t going to be inked first day and chucked onto a roster?

  50. im guessing TP might be done if we dont score. J/k, theres no chance in hell that they fire him. They’ll just talk about how great the pitcher was.

  51. Boog: “and here’s Lance Nix”

    Joe: “Ha, it would be cool if his last name was spelled Nyx!”

  52. I want us to be a good team, but we are simply not.

    The Phils winning or losing doesn’t change that; it simply provides the illusion that we can compete when they lose and keep us close.

  53. Chipper on Francoeur, from AJC:

    “He’s tried. He’s worked. But he has some fundamental issues that he can’t feel. You can tell him don’t arm-bar at the plate [keeping arm stiff and parallel to ground]. I can show him what it does to his swing but he can’t fix it because he can’t feel it. If you can’t feel it, you can’t make the adjustment. You can show him his stance in his rookie year and show him last year and all the major differences. But he doesn’t feel it.”

    Ugh.

    I do think Jeff can find his way on the field, but maybe not in his hometown. Hope he does.

  54. ps – just like last year, when we kept losing to the Nots, we’re losing this year to teams that a playoff contender has no business losing to (the Pirates?). Unless we turn it around (and the upcoming slate against the AL East gives no reason for hope, though the remaining summer slate against flawed NL teams does. Stoopid Hope!) or get lucky, we aint playing in October. Sure the Brewers probably aren’t going to advance far, but they’re at least beating teams a playoff squad should.

    I’m sure we’ll now sweep the Reds and Red Sox.

  55. Bases loaded, one run in, only one out … and here comes the rally killer.

    EDIT: Hey, he took the first pitch! Amazing.

  56. @107

    What Chipper means is this: “There’s a element to this game that you just have to be born with the ability to understand–Fransewer doesn’t have it.”

  57. Chipper-Mac-Glide-Kotchman has got to be about the slowest succession of batters in baseball.

  58. And therein lies why I love the Braves, but hate this edition of them. Their capable hitters get the job done. They load the bases. They’ve got a pitcher who came in with a sub-1.00 ERA sweating and losing his once pinpoint control. In short, they give you hope. And then Francoeur takes it away.

  59. 107 and 111

    What Chipper is basically saying is “Jeff sucks, he can’t fix it.”

    I have thought most of Jeff’s issues are mental, I still think there are alot of issues with his head, but Chipper’s comment was eye opening.

    Why am I even up worrying about a last place team?

  60. Frenchy stinks very bad.

    stupup74, I have come to a conclusion that Frenchy is just not so talented after all.

  61. Can someone set up a charity where every time Frenchy sucks they donate a goat to someone in poverty?

    I wouldn’t mind his AB’s so much knowing it has some positive benefit.

  62. @124: It’d have to be something low per occurrence — one cent per GIDP, per first pitch swinging with two men on, per misjudged fly ball, per man left on base, etc. At even 10 cents for each of the above, the impoverished would be giddy, but you’d be bankrupt.

    But in theory, it’s a great idea. We should find the right charity and do this.

  63. Im starting to wonder what it would be like to save $6 mil, on KJ and Frenchy, and start Conrad and Jones. Could we be worse with those guys?

  64. One chicken per sucky moment would make more financial sense but I figured a goat was more symbolic. But yeah, there’s probably not enough charity goat to fulfill that need.

  65. As Skip used to say, it seems like a good time to go walk the dog. Night, all.

    P.S. Francoeur sucks.

  66. @124 Classic.

    @126 Great idea, except that we don’t need Conrad. All we need is to get Infante healthy.

  67. Joe Simpson is still fluffing Francoeur. “Jeff was 6 for his last 15.” (Not counting his 0 fer 3 tonight, eh Joe?) Seriously, how much is this fucktard getting paid by the Francoeur family?

  68. KC

    I have tried not to get on the ‘Frenchy Sucks and if we get rid of him all will be better bandwagon’, but I am starting to agree with the group that he is not a talented player.

    However, this team is soooo bad that even moving Frenchy is not enough. There are only about 4 major league caliber hitter in the lineup on a given night. This is the worst offense I have ever seen.

  69. @131: I think the 1988 Braves had a worse offense. This one might be the most frustrating.

  70. I have just got into my office and discovered that (a) the game is still on and (b)mlb.com cannot bring it to me at this point!

    It seems like we are still having trouble scoring runs….

  71. Francoeur swings through an 86 MPH fastball up and out over the plate.

    Simpson’s first reaction: “Good swing.”

  72. If I were a Phillies fan, I would find it humorous that the Braves insist on running Francoeur out there everyday and simultaneously call themselves contenders.

  73. Joe Simpson is Francoeur’s biggest apologist/cheerleader and he doesn’t even try to hide it. It’s disgusting.

  74. So when Infante is off the DL he is the regular 2nd baseman, right? For as much as Frenchy gets dogged KJ is worse and is doing more damage right now

  75. Stephen-Did you see Frenchy’s hit? It was as week as any double play he’s grounded into tonight. It just had eyes.

  76. How is KJ worse than Francoeur?

    He has 20 points on the Stenchbag in OBP and 50 points in slugging. I mean, they both suck, but he’s certainly not worse.

  77. KJ plays a more demanding defensive position and plays better defense than Frenchy. He’s also been (a bit) more useful at the plate than Frenchy. There’s no contest between the two, though both have clearly sucked.

  78. KJ at least occasionally hits the ball hard. Francoeur hits _maybe_ one ball hard a week. He’s the worst hitter I’ve ever seen.

  79. Francoeur: .625 OPS
    Johnson: .690 OPS

    They both suck to high heaven this year. They both have uninspiring potential replacements for the rest of 2009, like Brandon Jones and Omar Infante.

    The one difference is: Francoeur sucks more and has for a lot longer.

  80. Is that 3 infield RBIs the Reds have had tonight?

    Yeesh…. Just that kind of game for the pitchers.

  81. Francoeur’s continued existence on this team is proof that the team cares more about selling tickets than they do about winning. It’s telling that ticket sales are declining anyway.

  82. KC, that is frankly being more than a little unfair. You can’t compare sucks year-after-year to suck that just started.

    Going by the logic, Francoeur and Brian Giles both suck and there is no point in comparing them.

  83. Francoeur’s continued existence is also the product of a lack of OF depth in the high minors. And that falls at the front office’s feet. We don’t even have a Chuck Thomas/Willie Harris type in triple-A to plug in — and that’s inexcusable. Of course, I’m sure 80% of the outfielders in the International League could outhit Francoeur.

  84. Both Frenchy and KJ suck–but one thing about the latter is that is has come as a rude awakening to many. I always liked KJ and assumed that the Braves knew what they were doing when in his first game they had him hit #3.

    Last year people talked about him as a player who could become ‘Chase Utley’; statistical arguments were brought forward to show that he was an asset to the Braves. Those who got tired of the long slumps didn’t buy a word of it–especially the Chase projections.

    Hence, in 2009 it has come as rude surprise that KJ sucks and we should have moved him if we had the chance….

    He will probably get hot again and will find his champions, but lets face it–KJ does suck.

  85. “Going by the logic, Francoeur and Brian Giles both suck and there is no point in comparing them.”

    True dat. I guess Jimmy Rollins is as bad as Francoeur too.

  86. So, a serious if not very informed question. Does the fact that Francoeur continues to play every day with his, I feel safe in assuming, negative VORP, give the lie to that statistic or does it truly prove that the Braves organization ignores such metrics? If he truly is worse than the mythical (at least to me, since I confess to not understanding the definition here) replacement player, and by definition the replacement player is basically freely available, then how do you not just freely obtain one and replace Francoeur? Even with fan loyalty and advertisement and merchandise sales, it is hard for me to believe that the Braves simply do not care about winning, and would not choose to pursue a no-cost strategy that would improve their chances of doing so. What am I missing here?

  87. The Braves haves stuck with Frenchy for many reasons. One I think is cost: to get your ‘replacement’ player might be possible (with a trade) but then there is a good chance that his salary would be much higher than Francoeur’s. That is just a guess….More than anything else, the Braves have been in denial for a long time….

  88. I was just watching the post game show and Joe Simpson said that Francine is now coming around and isn’t a problem. Good to know Joe, you could have fooled me!

  89. Guys, comparing KJ to Giles and Rollins is unreasonable as well.

    It’s wonderful knowing Gonzo and Sori have a chance to end up being type A FAs. I never thought they have a chance to become type A considering last year.

  90. I’m awestruck by the ineptitude of this baseball team. For any so called professional sports team to underachieve so gloriously is truly astonishing.

    Which leads me to ask, why is Bobby Cox still managing?

  91. I just hope that if they become Type A free agents and leave, the Braves will not squander the quality picks on more unknown players when better ones are available….

  92. chipper’s not making many plays from 3rd. that’s not good. if he refuses to make a transition to first, his defense is going to become an issue in the next few years, if it isnt already.

  93. triple post:
    so, our 3-6 hitters go 9 for 15 on the day and we only score 2 runs. that’s silly. the 7 and 8 black holes went 1 for 9 with 9 men left on base. this simply cant happen.

  94. The Braves are a bad team. Teams go through cycles, especially teams that do not have the Yankees payroll(although even the Yankees are not as dominant as they once were). It looks like the Braves are in a cycle where nothing really works, where supposedly top prospects don’t develop, and the team if floundering. Maybe it’s just baseball karma–you can’t win forever and it’s the Braves turn to suck. I have little hope that this team will be much better in the next couple of years. The team simply has a paucity of talent. They seem to have misjudged KJ, obviously misjudged Frenchy, Davies, and Jo Jo. Sometimes it’s just bad luck but, as I have said, I do think the Braves have done a very poor job of player development in recent years, at least in developing impact players.

    The worst thing that is happening for the Braves is that the Phillies and Mets aren’t running away, allowing the organization to pretend they are contenders.

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